Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 17  All

Author Topic: Strictly better than....  (Read 41049 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Flip5ide

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 274
  • Highest Rank/Rating: 58/5600
  • Respect: +134
    • View Profile
Strictly better than....
« on: June 11, 2014, 05:16:14 pm »
+1

Okay guys, the challenge is simple: name a pair of kingdom cards of which, all edge cases considered, one is always preferable to have in hand. Prices and Possession are ignored.

Example:

Warehouse>Cellar
Noble Brigand>Thief
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 05:25:07 pm by Flip5ide »
Logged
"If at first you don't succeed, find out if the loser gets anything." - William Lyon Phelps

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2578
  • Respect: +2449
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2014, 05:19:58 pm »
+12

but... neither of those is true
Logged

2.71828.....

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1189
  • Shuffle iT Username: irrationalE
  • Respect: +1237
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2014, 05:21:13 pm »
0

but... neither of those is true

I prefer a thief on a platinum board.  (not that I would buy the thief)
Logged
Man. I had four strips of bacon yesterday. Was one automatically undercooked, one automatically overcooked? No, let's put a stop to that right here, all four strips were excellent.

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6306
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7490
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2014, 05:21:30 pm »
+1

So Expand > Remodel is all I can think of.
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9097
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2014, 05:21:54 pm »
0

Okay guys, the challenge is simple: name a pair of kingdom cards of which, all edge cases considered, one is always preferable to have in hand. Prices are ignored.

Example:

Warehouse>Cellar
Noble Brigand>Thief

These are bad examples.  Cellar is better if you have a bigger hand.  Thief is better when dealing with Platinum and alt Treasure.

In fact, there is no pair of cards where one is always better.  Even something like Platinum vs. Copper is subject to the edge case where you are Possessed.
Logged

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6306
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7490
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2014, 05:22:20 pm »
0

Guilds (Taxman) edge-cases Platinum > Gold > Silver > Copper.
Logged

Flip5ide

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 274
  • Highest Rank/Rating: 58/5600
  • Respect: +134
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2014, 05:22:49 pm »
0

I knew they didn't work, just illustrating what I meant. Originally I wrote "Possible candidates that don't actually work:"
Logged
"If at first you don't succeed, find out if the loser gets anything." - William Lyon Phelps

2.71828.....

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1189
  • Shuffle iT Username: irrationalE
  • Respect: +1237
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2014, 05:23:46 pm »
+1

hunting grounds > smithy
workers village > village
Logged
Man. I had four strips of bacon yesterday. Was one automatically undercooked, one automatically overcooked? No, let's put a stop to that right here, all four strips were excellent.

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6306
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7490
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2014, 05:24:31 pm »
+1

hunting grounds > smithy
workers village > village

Oh, yeah, Bazaar > Village as well
Logged

2.71828.....

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1189
  • Shuffle iT Username: irrationalE
  • Respect: +1237
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 05:24:46 pm »
0

hunting grounds > smithy
workers village > village

except i can come up with an edge case for hunting grounds where i have 3 cards left in my deck and i dont want to trigger a reshuffle
Logged
Man. I had four strips of bacon yesterday. Was one automatically undercooked, one automatically overcooked? No, let's put a stop to that right here, all four strips were excellent.

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6306
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7490
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2014, 05:25:06 pm »
0

And Walled Village > Village
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9097
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2014, 05:25:50 pm »
0

hunting grounds > smithy
workers village > village

Edge cases include Possession for both.  For Smithy, there is reshuffle consideration.  Also cases where you have to trash the card but don't want to get Duchy or 3 Estates.  For Village, there is Forge with certain hands (applies for Village vs. all $4+ villages as well).
Logged

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6306
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7490
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2014, 05:26:45 pm »
+2

hunting grounds > smithy
workers village > village

Edge cases include Possession for both.  For Smithy, there is reshuffle consideration.  For Village, there is Forge with certain hands (applies for Village vs. all $4+ villages as well).

We need not consider Possession for Edge Cases.  Otherwise all discussion is moot.

Forge doesn't count because it was postulated that price does not matter.
Logged

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2578
  • Respect: +2449
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2014, 05:27:15 pm »
+1

variety cards work for everything too.
Logged

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6306
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7490
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2014, 05:28:31 pm »
0

Squire > Necropolis.  And, uh,.. lots of things are better than Ruins. 
Logged

Flip5ide

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 274
  • Highest Rank/Rating: 58/5600
  • Respect: +134
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2014, 05:30:26 pm »
0

Wait... what about Goons>Militia?  :o
Logged
"If at first you don't succeed, find out if the loser gets anything." - William Lyon Phelps

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6306
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7490
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2014, 05:32:19 pm »
0

Wait... what about Goons>Militia?  :o

Nah, the extra +1 coin could get you from $7 to $8 to buy a game-winning Province.
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9097
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2014, 05:34:11 pm »
+1

hunting grounds > smithy
workers village > village

Edge cases include Possession for both.  For Smithy, there is reshuffle consideration.  For Village, there is Forge with certain hands (applies for Village vs. all $4+ villages as well).

We need not consider Possession for Edge Cases.  Otherwise all discussion is moot.

Forge doesn't count because it was postulated that price does not matter.

Pretty sure those stipulations weren't in the OP when I first read it. :P

lio is right that variety cards still edge case everything, but if you ignore those too, it makes the challenge pretty easy.  It's not hard to find strictly better effects. 

Pretty much every village+ > Village
Count > Mandarin (on-gain doesn't matter because this is about the card in hand)
Scrying Pool > Spy
Logged

eHalcyon

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8689
  • Respect: +9097
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2014, 05:36:07 pm »
+1

Wait... what about Goons>Militia?  :o

Nah, the extra +1 coin could get you from $7 to $8 to buy a game-winning Province.

Goons and Militia both give +$2.  You may be conflating it with Merchant Guild.


Oh, one more universal edge case -- you prefer not to have the "better" card vs. Masquerade, if your hand is that card + 4 even more important cards (e.g. Colonies).
Logged

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6306
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7490
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2014, 05:36:42 pm »
0

Wait... what about Goons>Militia?  :o

Nah, the extra +1 coin could get you from $7 to $8 to buy a game-winning Province.

Goons and Militia both give +$2.  You may be conflating it with Merchant Guild.


Oh, one more universal edge case -- you prefer not to have the "better" card vs. Masquerade, if your hand is that card + 4 even more important cards (e.g. Colonies).

Oh.  In my head Goons was giving +$1.
Logged

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6306
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7490
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2014, 05:42:54 pm »
+2

On-gain effect matters, because you could trash it and gain it from the trash with Graverobber in the same turn.
Logged

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2578
  • Respect: +2449
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2014, 05:43:18 pm »
+1

Oh, one more universal edge case -- you prefer not to have the "better" card vs. Masquerade, if your hand is that card + 4 even more important cards (e.g. Colonies).
Works with ambassador too. So, list of cards we are ignoring:

Possession
Masquerade
Ambassador
Horn of Plenty
Fairgrounds
Menagerie
Hunting Party
Forge
Remake
Upgrade
Procession
Governor

And I'm probably forgetting some. Some of the above don't null all of them, but they null a lot of them.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 06:35:18 pm by liopoil »
Logged

Jorbles

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1460
  • Respect: +514
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2014, 05:45:08 pm »
+1

So I guess we're ignoring Remake/Upgrade (any other exact value upgraders I'm forgetting)? Because unless two cards have the same price there's almost always going to be a hypothetical situation where the different price points will matter.

(For example: Maybe I'd rather have a Militia in my hand than a Goons if I can Upgrade it into a Duchy.)

Edit: There goes liopoil, saying it more thoroughly and faster than me.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 05:47:42 pm by Jorbles »
Logged

Flip5ide

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 274
  • Highest Rank/Rating: 58/5600
  • Respect: +134
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2014, 05:50:32 pm »
0

Yeah, assume all prices are equal. And just ignore Possession.

Also: Chancellor is definitely worse than Scavenger as far as I can surmise.
Logged
"If at first you don't succeed, find out if the loser gets anything." - William Lyon Phelps

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2578
  • Respect: +2449
    • View Profile
Re: Strictly better than....
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2014, 05:54:56 pm »
0

Edit: There goes liopoil, saying it more thoroughly and faster than me.
...I edited in Upgrade, procession, and remake off of your comment.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 17  All
 

Page created in 0.082 seconds with 20 queries.