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Author Topic: Thought Experiment: No Waste Dominion  (Read 3371 times)

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Davio

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Thought Experiment: No Waste Dominion
« on: December 07, 2011, 10:43:41 am »
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What if... you had to spend every available Action, Coin and Buy (all if possible) during each phase?

Clarification: You start every turn with 1 Action (without durations), you must play one or more Action cards if you have them in your hand, but you may choose. So you could play a terminal first and be unable to play your cantrip later. You may choose how many Treasure cards to play during your Buy phase, but you must spend every $ if you can. So if you play $10 and have only 1 Buy, it's OK to buy just 1 Province. But if you have $8 and two Buys, you could buy a Province still, but then you'd have to take a Curse or a Copper.

Would this make the game more strategic? Which cards would become more powerful and which cards would become awful?

I think it can be interesting, because you can't spam cantrips anymore without thinking about it. If you play 10 Markets, have 10 Coins to spend and 11 Buys, do you buy 2 $5's and 9 Coppers or 5 $2's and 6 Coppers?

Some obligatory trashers become more dangerous if you have to play them. Certainly Lookout has that bad rep when used later in the game.

Balancing out your Actions, Buys and Coins can be tough, but satisfying.
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rod-

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Re: Thought Experiment: No Waste Dominion
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2011, 11:18:40 am »
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I think you just start ignoring +buys altogether, making market/grand market types of strategies far worse.  After that, you're really not changing a whole lot, but you do have the problem that you're no longer building a 'deck' because you're not able to buy a village almost ever, for lack of the proper shuffle luck.

All in all, it makes no difference to big money strats and makes almost any kind of engine untenable.
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rinkworks

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Re: Thought Experiment: No Waste Dominion
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2011, 12:00:08 pm »
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rod: What do you mean about not being able to buy a Village?  I don't know why that would be bad.

But yeah, you almost certainly avoid +Buys.  You also never ever ever buy Treasure Map!  You probably wouldn't buy Baron, either, even if it didn't have its +Buy.  I'm sure there are still some good engines, though, like Village/Torturer and Minion.  But a lot of engines really need +Buy, and those are just too risky.

Unless you can somehow build the engine first and throw in a source of +Buy at the last minute before it starts firing reliably.  Like maybe you build Village/Conspirator and only throw in a Market once it's going.  That engine needs some trashing, though, and you have to be careful there.  Chapel and Steward are okay.  Trading Post and Remake are not.  You pretty much never buy any mandatory trashing cards, although the one you mention -- Lookout -- is one of the least harmful of those.

For a few strategies, Copper is okay.  Horse Traders/Duke, for example, would be perfectly fine, because you want to pick up Coppers whenever you can.
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rod-

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Re: Thought Experiment: No Waste Dominion
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2011, 12:39:24 pm »
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I just mean that 95% of the time when i want to pick up a village, i have 4-5 coin available, if not 6+.  It's hard enough to buy your engine pieces in the right order when you can pick and choose, but imagine how bad it is when the next piece you need is a vanilla village, and your deck is already devoid of coppers. 

I suppose i did misread the OP though, or got in before the edit, and obviously you don't have to play 5 coins if you have the ability to get 3 and that's what you want.
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Tahtweasel

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Re: Thought Experiment: No Waste Dominion
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2011, 02:37:21 pm »
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Big money would become disgustingly dominant, because it is one of the few strategies not massively disadvantaged by the forced buy.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Thought Experiment: No Waste Dominion
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2011, 03:04:25 pm »
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Big money would become disgustingly dominant, because it is one of the few strategies not massively disadvantaged by the forced buy.

Actually, Big Money wouldn't necessary work so well... if you have $4 or $5, you wouldn't be allowed to buy a Silver! You would be forced to buy actions, or early green.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Thought Experiment: No Waste Dominion
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2011, 03:05:49 pm »
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Big money would become disgustingly dominant, because it is one of the few strategies not massively disadvantaged by the forced buy.

Actually, Big Money wouldn't necessary work so well... if you have $4 or $5, you wouldn't be allowed to buy a Silver! You would be forced to buy actions, or early green.
Presumably you simply wouldn't play all 4-5... unless you've got silver-silver-green-green-green or something.

GendoIkari

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Re: Thought Experiment: No Waste Dominion
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2011, 03:22:47 pm »
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Big money would become disgustingly dominant, because it is one of the few strategies not massively disadvantaged by the forced buy.

Actually, Big Money wouldn't necessary work so well... if you have $4 or $5, you wouldn't be allowed to buy a Silver! You would be forced to buy actions, or early green.
Presumably you simply wouldn't play all 4-5... unless you've got silver-silver-green-green-green or something.
Oh right. Oops.

So, we could modify the rules to say you must play all treasure in hand. It would be more in the sprit of "no-waste," and also gimp big money as much as it would gimp engines.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Thought Experiment: No Waste Dominion
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2011, 04:30:25 pm »
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I'm pretty sure the OP never intended to imply you must by a $5 card when you have $5.  You must play all of your cards, and you must use every Action/Coin/Buy if possible.  He explicitly explains that you could play a terminal action first to avoid playing a non-terminal, and that you can by a Province with $10 and one buy.  I don't know where the assumption that you must by a $5 if available came from.  If you buy a Silver with your $5 and 1 buy, you have $2 left, but no buys to use it on, so you are done.  This is really the same idea as playing a terminal to run yourself out of actions and preventing you from playing your other actions.  The OP can clarify if I am wrong, but I don't think Big Money is effected at all by the rules he set out.

Qvist

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Re: Thought Experiment: No Waste Dominion
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2011, 06:38:19 pm »
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It would ruin the game. It would be a game I would not enjoy playing anymore. Or, if that would be the official rules, I would change them to house rules.
Why? The reasons are already said. On most boards, BM would be the best strategy and every game would likely be the same.
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