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[Tables]

No log, IRL game

Trade Route
Fishing Village
Smithy
Woodcutter
Moneylender
Bureaucrat
Market
Witch
Margrave
Embassy

Province/Estate

To me, this has basically all the makings of a good engine - Moneylender (and later Trade Route) for trashing, Fishing Village for +actions, three options for drawing, three options for +buy and a few attacks. Missing a good payload type card, but asides from that, it seems good. Witch's cursing made things interesting, but Trade Route was at least able to deal with the curses. However curses would definitely slow things down, especially combined with Margrave.

Game summary:

I have no doubt I got terrible luck in this game, but I still feel like I made mistakes, that if I hadn't, maybe I'd have still stood a chance. I've noted points I suspect may have been the most notable suboptimal plays with

• - although any suggestions would be helpful.

Getting a majority of the Fishing Villages seemed important here as the only village, and so did winning the curse split. I decided to hedge my bets slightly and went for FV/Moneylender opening, and ended up getting 4/5 for a Smithy and Witch on T3-4. My opponent opened Trade Route/Moneylender (she's a lot less experienced in Dominion than me) and got a 3/5 T3-4 for Witch and a Fishing Village.

From there we did similar things, building up our decks with drawing cards, thinning down with Moneylender (and Trade Route in her case), throwing Witches at each other (no not literally). I decided to buy a Margrave with my first $6 [1], mainly because I wanted the extra buy. She got a second Witch ASAP (which wasn't that quickly actually, due to not having much money in deck), by which time I also had a Gold [2]. But as soon as she got that second Witch, my luck turned terrible. She managed on the next two turns to play both her Witches, drawing most of her deck each time. My Witch missed the reshuffle and came up once with a Moneylender with no actions left, on a turn I decided to take the money instead - I can't remember what I bought as a result, but I remember thinking it was important - probably to get one of the last FVs [3], and her first two Margrave plays ended up hitting my hands with nothing but good cards (I think the first Margrave she played I discarded two Fishing Villages and a Moneylender to, just to give you an idea) and I ended up losing the curse split 8-2 as a result. I bought a Trade Route in the middle of getting those curses, but my deck never actually managed to recover, I never managed to draw more than about half of my deck at once (it was around 25 cards with 5 FVs (she had the other 5) and ~6 Smithy/Margraves). I didn't buy any Embassys until very late in the game [4] but when I did, it was already over pretty much. Her Engine was buying Provinces every turn, mine was stuttering through and still trying to recover. I ended up losing something like 7-1 Provinces, plus her extra Duchies/Estates to my Curses.

[1] With no +buys in deck, was Margrave the right choice here? Should I have instead gone for, say, a second Witch or even an Embassy here, and picked up an extra buy from something like Trade Route/Woodcutter instead?
[2] Was a Gold the right choice? I was mostly at this point only getting money from FVs, Moneylender and Copper. It felt like I was usually not getting quite enough money, so went for the Gold. What might have been a better buy?
[3] This one's probably harder to judge since it's a tactical call, but play a Witch and probably not buy anything, or play Moneylender to get one more FV? I think I probably made the right choice on this one, as much as it sucked to make, but differing opinions would be nice to hear.
[4] Should I have grabbed an Embassy earlier in the game? Perhaps over my second Margrave? The silvers were definitely useful to her deck, due to being able to draw it all most turns and having fairly low money, but being able to sift through two more cards to find better things for me, maybe that'd have been better? I also like the attack and extra buy of Margrave here.

Those were my thoughts after the game. Does anyone have any thoughts on what I should have done differently?

[SCSN]

Your biggest error was not getting an early Trade Route despite having 3 junk cards Moneylender can't trash that will, on average, be joined by 5 Curses fairly quickly.

I agree with the Moneylender/FV opening because getting to Witch has a higher priority than getting a TR, but your Smithy should definitely have been a TR: you want to trim down as soon as possible, not randomly draw some junk.

The conventional wisdom that Trade Route is only good late game is completely retarded: the little money you get from it late is only a consolation prize for you not benefiting from the trashing as much. Trashing is insanely strong early because you benefit from it each subsequent shuffle by having one less junk card. And while Trade Route is infinitely weaker than the somewhat comparable Forager, this doesn't mean it's at all skippable when no other Estate/Curse trasher is available.

And yes, definitely get a 2nd Witch over Margrave. Witch is much stronger as long as there are Curses left and you shouldn't really need the buy until you're trim.

Your Gold buy is obviously awful A good rule of thumb when playing an engine is to never buy/gain a Gold until you can reliably draw your deck each turn.

[AdamH]

While I wouldn't say it quite as strongly as SCSN did, I think his point is important and I might be able to say something that makes light bulbs go off.

Since you're buying Fishing Village over Silver until they're gone (you ARE buying FV over Silver until they're gone, right?) you'll probably have plenty of extra actions floating around. This mitigates the biggest disadvantage of TR -- it's a terminal -- and makes it much more like Forager like SCSN said. If TR was Forager here, I'd get one as soon as I got my first Witch (second shuffle) because trashing is so important here. With treasures as your payload, drawing Curses is just no bueno.

[Tables]

Hm, so I suppose the most key thing here was that I undervalued trashing? I had always planned to get a TR early-ish, but went for FV over it in general since it was the only source of +actions (and I found myself constantly short of actions, anyway).

Asides from that, I'm not really seeing the Gold buy as 'obviously awful'. At the point I bought it my entire deck had maybe $9-10 money in it, if I drew it all and played the Moneylender? That was coming from like 3-4 FVs, 3-4 coppers and the Moneylender and nothing else. I feel fairly okay believing an engine component would have been better, but if I didn't get some money at some point I feel like I'd have ended up with nothing really in my deck. So I don't think it was 'obvious' at all, at least not to a player of my skill.

[SCSN]

Hm, so I suppose the most key thing here was that I undervalued trashing? I had always planned to get a TR early-ish, but went for FV over it in general since it was the only source of +actions (and I found myself constantly short of actions, anyway).

You were short on actions because your deck was filled with junk, which makes it hard to reliably connect your villages (even a strong one like Fishing) with your terminals, and a thick deck forces you to waste terminal slots on draw cards just to get through all the junk. If you start trimming early you'll need less villages overall to do everything you want.

Asides from that, I'm not really seeing the Gold buy as 'obviously awful'. At the point I bought it my entire deck had maybe $9-10 money in it, if I drew it all and played the Moneylender? That was coming from like 3-4 FVs, 3-4 coppers and the Moneylender and nothing else. I feel fairly okay believing an engine component would have been better, but if I didn't get some money at some point I feel like I'd have ended up with nothing really in my deck. So I don't think it was 'obvious' at all, at least not to a player of my skill.

You do want to expand your economy eventually, but only once your deck is trim/strong enough to draw everything starting from a Margraved 3-card hand. Get it any earlier and the Gold will only frustrate your attempts to gain control of your deck, and it's only once that control is attained that you can start working your magic.

[Tables]

Both of those points make a lot of sense. Mmm, thanks for the advice. I knew it wasn't just luck, but it seems that a better player probably would have won from the luck I had.

[soulnet]

Maybe getting Embassy early, maybe even over first Margrave? It would let you keep playing those key cards (Witch, trashers) while you are not slim enough. Later it will filter out those awful Provinces.  If I were playing, I would buy Embassy over second Witch, especially if I already have a couple of FVs. A turn starting with FV (in hand or in play) and Embassy is likely to be a good turn.

I agree that Gold sucks, especially if you were that far from drawing your deck.

[MarkowKette]

Maybe getting Embassy early, maybe even over first Margrave? It would let you keep playing those key cards (Witch, trashers) while you are not slim enough. Later it will filter out those awful Provinces.  If I were playing, I would buy Embassy over second Witch, especially if I already have a couple of FVs. A turn starting with FV (in hand or in play) and Embassy is likely to be a good turn.

I agree that Gold sucks, especially if you were that far from drawing your deck.

No, Margrave is more important. Yes Embassy really helps getting controll over your deck faster than Margrave does, but Margrave keeps your opponent from doing so very much. With a 3 card hand in the early-to-mid game you will never be able to Trade route a card and get an important 5 cost on the same turn. And Embassy is just not that good anymore when you get hit by a Margrave that turn. You will probably have to discart quite a few good cards in that case and still have a 3 or 4 card hand afterwards.
I personally would go Margrave over the second Witch without a doubt, but generally a second witch before tha Margrave might be reasonable aswell. (and if you go Margrave second it's probably too late to get a second witch at all , which i'm totally fine with.)

[SCSN]

Because of the weak trashing a second Witch is really important. Due to the finiteness of the Curse pile it effectively helps you trim: every Curse you give your opponent is a Curse he can't give you.

[soulnet]

Because of the weak trashing a second Witch is really important. Due to the finiteness of the Curse pile it effectively helps you trim: every Curse you give your opponent is a Curse he can't give you.

I think the question is how many more Witch plays before the pile is over is a 2nd Witch going to add compared to Margrave or Embassy. Moreover, Margrave/Embassy help with the cleaning up while Cursing is still occurring. And of course, the whole point is that, after Curses are gone, either is much better than 2nd Witch.

[MarkowKette]

Because of the weak trashing a second Witch is really important. Due to the finiteness of the Curse pile it effectively helps you trim: every Curse you give your opponent is a Curse he can't give you.

Yeah sure, but i still think Margrave is also really important at that point. You won't lose the curse slit more than 6/4 on average and i think you are fine with that. I think your bigger hands and the +buy will give you the power to build faster than your opponent so you can support maybe an additional Trade Route at the time the curses run out. Generally the better card is the one that gets you to draw your whole deck faster and there are two ways to achieve it. I'm not saying the Margrave way is better but it fits my personal style more and you will have to show my some simulation results to persuade me second witch is better