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Author Topic: What is the worst BM+X card?  (Read 10012 times)

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mail-mi

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What is the worst BM+X card?
« on: June 01, 2014, 10:06:44 pm »
+3

Feast? Scout? What would it be?
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Awaclus

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2014, 10:40:32 pm »
+2

Poor House.

EDIT: Golem. Rats.

EDIT 2: I guess Throne Room and variants aren't too hot either.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 10:43:52 pm by Awaclus »
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pacovf

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2014, 10:47:11 pm »
+7

I guess Throne Room and variants aren't too hot either.

I disagree. You can King's Court a King's Court to play King's Court three times, that's like super strong.
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Witherweaver

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2014, 10:47:54 pm »
+3

Estate, Curse.
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dominator 123

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2014, 10:56:20 pm »
+1

University, Quarry, Graverobber
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"Strictly Better" compares only effects and not cost, change my mind

PSGarak

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2014, 11:06:59 pm »
+2

Procession would eventually do something by accident, which may even be useful.

Walled Village. Also, Village. Wandering Minstrel.

Vineyard.
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silverspawn

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2014, 06:08:03 am »
0

curse.

Tables

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2014, 06:40:06 am »
+4

First I want to make a few assumptions:

1) We're playing Basic Big Money + X. We buy Province with $8, Gold with $6, Silver with $3, nothing with $0. We buy two copies of our chosen card at it's price point over any respective treasure (e.g. with $4 or $5, we buy Smithy over Silver until with have two Smithies).
2) All cards are fair game for choosing, provided they can be bought from the supply.

Now the reason I stated explicitly it's basic BM+X is because, if you play BMU+X (Big Money Ultimate) instead, you can never get worse than just playing BMU. Why? BMU+X buys the optimal number of X, and if that optimal number is 0, well, that was easy. And I chose 2 copies of the specified card somewhat arbitrarily. You can't get all of them really, a Minion deck isn't exactly BM, and two I think tends to be about optimal for standard BM play. So considering those conditions what do I think?

I think it's probably a $6 card that's overall not very helpful - this means we'd buy it over Gold twice. Farmland or Fairground, most likely. Farmland isn't going to do much, trash Estates into $4s (we'd need to specify which ones), Fairground is going to end up worth 2 VPs and do nothing for us otherwise, what a waste of money. Border Village gets an honorable mention, as it close to turns our strategy into BM with two $6 silvers.

Of course, these rules are kinda arbitrary, and really I think a lot of cards end up being equivalent as BM+X strategies, which is 'don't buy the X'.

A far more interesting thing to look at would be which BM+X strategy does the worst under BMU conditions (optimal number of X buys) subject to:
1) At least one X must be bought (or at least must almost always be bought)
2) The BM+X strategy must beat BMU on average

Then you start getting something interesting - you're looking for cards that make BM better, but barely.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Davio

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2014, 07:25:25 am »
0

Feast? Scout? What would it be?
A single Treasure Map?
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DStu

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2014, 09:31:17 am »
+6

Code: [Select]
card = "Curse"
n = 2
{
  x: card
  name: 'Big Money' + card
  author: 'DStu'
  requires: [card]
  gainPriority: (state, my) ->
      [
        "Province" if my.getTotalMoney() > 18
        "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 4
        "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
        @x if my.countInDeck(@x) < n
        @x if @x == "Estate" and my.countInDeck(@x) < 3 + n
        @x if @x == "Copper" and my.countInDeck(@x) < 7 + n
        "Gold"
        "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 6
        "Silver"
        null
      ]
}
So far I have found
Curse < Estate < Throne Room < Mint< Fairgrounds < King's Court < Scout < Copper < Loan < null

Farmland is a bit difficult because the default sim gains other actions via forced gain from Farmland.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 10:58:33 am by DStu »
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luser

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2014, 09:37:39 am »
+1

Here you assume that at worst you add card that you never play into your deck. But its not case as some cards may harm your deck.

A 6 cost are cards are not that bad as you added silvers to your deck. A opening with dead throne rooms with baker on board is lot worse as you will be stuck at 3 longer.

If you are lord bottingon then playing rats are worst. There are also worse cards than scout when you need to play them. A favorite newbie strategy is advisor-bm which is worse than throne room as opponent cycles out your good cards. Then there is a loan-bm which if you must play loan is terrible.

And by far a worst bm strategy is of course bm-mint where you need to by two mints.
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silverspawn

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2014, 10:27:19 am »
0

Here you assume that at worst you add card that you never play into your deck. But its not case as some cards may harm your deck.

A 6 cost are cards are not that bad as you added silvers to your deck. A opening with dead throne rooms with baker on board is lot worse as you will be stuck at 3 longer.

If you are lord bottingon then playing rats are worst. There are also worse cards than scout when you need to play them. A favorite newbie strategy is advisor-bm which is worse than throne room as opponent cycles out your good cards. Then there is a loan-bm which if you must play loan is terrible.

And by far a worst bm strategy is of course bm-mint where you need to by two mints.

why is loan terrible?

thespaceinvader

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2014, 10:41:34 am »
0

Because it hurts your economy early on, and eats up hand space in the late game once it's done its work.

It's a great engine card (clears your copper whilst not completely losing out on money) but if you're aiming fgor big money, it quickly starts either eating your good treasure or being unplayable.
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Robz888

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2014, 10:42:09 am »
0

I think it has to be Rats.
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DStu

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2014, 10:48:13 am »
0

I think it has to be Rats.
If you are not forced to play it, it is like TR.
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Robz888

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2014, 10:51:24 am »
+1

I think it has to be Rats.
If you are not forced to play it, it is like TR.

If you aren't forced to play the card, then these are all the same, except BM Curse.
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DStu

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2014, 10:54:41 am »
0

I think it has to be Rats.
If you are not forced to play it, it is like TR.

If you aren't forced to play the card, then these are all the same, except BM Curse.

Difference is when you gain them, if they really don't have value when played, and what happens on gain.
But Rats with wantsToPlayRats(state,my)->yes loses 60:40 against Curse
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Robz888

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2014, 10:59:32 am »
+5

Big Money Rats-and-you-have-to-play-it is kind of a funny concept. "Please miss the reshuffle, please miss the reshuffle, please miss the reshuffle... shoot... don't draw a Gold, don't draw a Gold, don't draw a Gold."
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Pneumatiker

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2014, 11:43:44 am »
+1

Setting: Game without shelters and Colonies
Probably King's Court or Peddler. Without Necropolis Peddler got the highest opportunity cost in the game as you could've bought a Province for the first Peddler and either another Province or at least a Gold or a Duchy for the second one.
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DStu

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2014, 11:55:52 am »
0

Setting: Game without shelters and Colonies
Probably King's Court or Peddler. Without Necropolis Peddler got the highest opportunity cost in the game as you could've bought a Province for the first Peddler and either another Province or at least a Gold or a Duchy for the second one.

The inofficial rules where to only buy X over treasure, not over Victory, so you just don't buy it...
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BadAssMutha

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2014, 12:03:00 pm »
0

I think Pneumatiker is right that if you're not forced to play the card, it's mostly the opportunity cost of buying the card. If you are forced to play the card, Rats is obviously terrible, and I imagine a pair of Lookouts would kill a BM deck by the endgame.
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GendoIkari

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2014, 12:10:43 pm »
0

Potion cards as your X should actually be exactly the same as pure BM... because in the general rules of BM+X, you won't ever buy a potion, so you won't ever be able to afford a potion-cost card.
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Marcory

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2014, 02:06:25 pm »
0

Not even with Philosopher's Stone?
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soulnet

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2014, 02:25:13 pm »
0

If you are going to play the cards, Thief and Pirate Ship are probably really really bad, unless we are assuming the opponent also plays BM. Contraband is also pretty bad for BM.
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Witherweaver

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Re: What is the worst BM+X card?
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2014, 02:36:54 pm »
0

Saboteur is probably pretty bad as well.
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