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Titandrake

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Leveraging Information
« on: May 31, 2014, 12:25:54 am »
+15

(Turns out I only got the motivation to write this when the server stopped working. Of course.)

This article should be considered a supplement to http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/06/24/guest-article-deck-control/

---

What do you track?

The correct response for a new player should be, "What?".

The response from an okay player should be, "The amount of VP in both players decks", to at least think about PPR.

The response from an absolutely perfect player should be "Everything derivable from a log of all cards played and bought." Does anyone actually do this? I'd wager, no. However, a strong player should get pretty close, and utilize that information to make better tactical plays to get small advantages that snowball up. Personally, I consider myself to be strong in understanding and getting information, and pretty terrible in actually using it properly.

Things worth tracking:

The number of each Victory card in the game in both players decks. This is better than just tracking the amount of VP, because it accounts for Silk Roads and gives you good intuition about whose deck is more clogged, which can influence whether you build more or go for points.

The number of each action card in the game in both players decks. Sometimes, knowing the exact counts is overkill, but knowing how many +Buy, +Cards, and +Actions there are can be a big help.

In games with Cursers/Ruins, how many of the 10 junk cards you have. Again, often not immediately applicable, but useful as a heuristic for whose deck is more clogged.

Alone, the above don't help very much. However, in combination with tracking how many are still left in the current shuffle, you can make vastly better plays. Knowing that you're due for $8 because you've seen mostly junk can help in PPR situations. Knowing that you have seen most of your good treasures can influence you in the other direction. This applies to tracking your opponent as well; if they've blown through their Gold and Silvers, you can be much more bold with PPR than you normally would.

However, this deck tracking helps the most with playing engines. Just for your own deck, you should be thinking about
- Number of terminals your deck can support. This should affect your buy decisions and overall strategy.
- Maximum money your deck can produce, if you draw your deck. In the late game, you should be thinking about how you get this to $16 or $22, or whatever important cost point you want.
- Number of Buys/cards you can gain in one turn. Important to keep in mind for 3-pile considerations.
- In games where you can't draw your deck, a rough estimate of how strong the cycling in your deck is. If your cycling is strong, you can trigger reshuffles with much less fear. In general, it also lets you make better reshuffle decisions: if you know you've played most actions, you can decide based on number of non-action cards in your discard. If you still have actions, you can trigger the reshuffle with a good chance of continuing to go off.

Again, tracking this for your opponent helps you immensely more. For example, if your opponent has played all +Buy cards this shuffle, and aren't going to reshuffle soon, you can empty victory piles much lower than you normally would.

In addition to this, you should be keeping information on the piles. Which ones are running low and are potential 3 pile targets, which piles are important to win the split on. Usually +Actions, more rarely +Cards because you don't usually have the +Actions or time to empty those piles.

This, in addition to actually making the right buys, and managing your reshuffles correctly, is what makes engines so hard to play correctly. There are many more decisions to make than it may seem, and continually making the right ones can make top players get wins for seemingly weird reasons.

Sample Games

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140523/log.53784910e4b0557728cb855c.1400903624556.txt - on turn 12, I buy an Alchemist instead of a Familiar. At that point, there are 4 Curses left, and we each have 2 Familiars, so if I had bought a Familiar, it would be a very slim chance I could play all 3 before my opponent only plays 1.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140523/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1400900241914.txt - on turn 14, I buy 2 Envoys, both because I knew my deck could support more, and because I hadn't played many of my Festivals or Highways that shuffle yet, so I knew I was due for a megaturn and wanted to set up a 3-pile.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140518/log.511bd320e4b01008292d004b.1400403187517.txt - on turn 14, I draw my deck and hit $21. I buy Province-Province-Mystic-Copper, giving me a total of $24 in my deck and setting up a triple Province. After this turn, there are 5 Provinces left, meaning if I hit the triple Province, I'll have 5 out of the 8. This pays off when I manage to draw my entire deck the next turn for the win.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140518/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1400471202741.txt - on turn 13, I know my Forge is in one of the next 5 cards. Although I have the option of Throne Room-Envoy, I instead Throne Room Mining Village, to maximize my chances of drawing the Forge instead of losing it to Envoy. I still play this turn a bit incorrectly: if I had known I had a possible TR, I should have played Mining Village first instead of Treasury, because Mining Village is much worse to Throne Room at this point.

(Edit: There was another game where I left one Province in a game with a small VP lead but lots of +Buy. I knew my opponent had played all sources of +Buy and didn't have enough cycling to trigger a reshuffle on his turn, so I could go for the win over the next 2 turns. Unfortunately, I can't find this game anymore, so you'll have to live with the summary.)

Concluding Remarks

The unfortunate truth is that a lot of this isn't generalizable. Of course, everything depends on the kingdom, but when you start talking about game state, any hope of generalization flies out the window. The best advice I can give is to get in a habit of considering the information at your disposal whenever you have to make a decision.

 - Obtain as much information as possible, on both your deck and your opponent's
 - Synthesize that information into useful insights
 - Use those insights to make better plays

Above all else, think about your turn. Autopiloting is easy; it's also one of the worst ways to play.

(Edit: Did some revisions, fixed some typos.)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 01:53:31 am by Titandrake »
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Titandrake

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Re: Leveraging Information
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2014, 04:17:48 am »
+5

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Awaclus

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Re: Leveraging Information
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2014, 04:21:36 am »
+5


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Donald X.

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Re: Leveraging Information
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2014, 04:22:05 am »
+4

posts article on the weekend
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Re: Leveraging Information
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2014, 07:10:03 am »
0

I really like your article, but it's more that I wonder how to focus that thoroughly to recall everything that happens exactly.
I've watched WW or SCSN playing and they seem to be able to track their deck without any strain. Like, in that teaching session SCSN even exactly knew what was in his opponent's deck (as seen in the Wishing Well / Grand Market deck).
I'm not stupid, but sometimes that seems like magic to me. I may be able to remember how the Province split is going but I have a really really hard time to determine how many cards of each I'm having in a big engine or how many Silvers I have in a Feodum driven deck.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 07:11:54 am by assemble_me »
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Awaclus

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Re: Leveraging Information
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2014, 07:58:28 am »
+3

I really like your article, but it's more that I wonder how to focus that thoroughly to recall everything that happens exactly.
I've watched WW or SCSN playing and they seem to be able to track their deck without any strain. Like, in that teaching session SCSN even exactly knew what was in his opponent's deck (as seen in the Wishing Well / Grand Market deck).
I'm not stupid, but sometimes that seems like magic to me. I may be able to remember how the Province split is going but I have a really really hard time to determine how many cards of each I'm having in a big engine or how many Silvers I have in a Feodum driven deck.
Keep tracking the Province splits. At some point, you will be able to do that effortlessly and then you can put the same amount of effort in tracking something else.
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c4master

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Re: Leveraging Information
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2014, 08:49:53 am »
+1

Maybe you could somehow rank tracking different things like:

1. Track VP total (or use the VP-counter).
2. Track special VP cards which can change their amount of VP due to the game state such as Silk Road, Feodom or Gardens for both decks.
3. Track your own total money including virtual coin.
4. Track both players maximum number of gains per turn.
5. Track your potentially best turn and worst turn.
6. Track which cards you have already played since your last shuffle.
7. Track all the stuff for your opponent.

Of course, there are many exceptions and edge cases such as Goons or coin tokens and I'm really sure the order of importance is not crroect, either. Still, this would help players to increase their skills step by step. :)
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Titandrake

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Re: Leveraging Information
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2014, 01:51:39 am »
+1

Maybe you could somehow rank tracking different things like:

1. Track VP total (or use the VP-counter).
2. Track special VP cards which can change their amount of VP due to the game state such as Silk Road, Feodom or Gardens for both decks.
3. Track your own total money including virtual coin.
4. Track both players maximum number of gains per turn.
5. Track your potentially best turn and worst turn.
6. Track which cards you have already played since your last shuffle.
7. Track all the stuff for your opponent.

Of course, there are many exceptions and edge cases such as Goons or coin tokens and I'm really sure the order of importance is not crroect, either. Still, this would help players to increase their skills step by step. :)

I don't track everything, once again priority usually depends on the board. For instance, tracking total money matters much less when you're not likely to draw your deck.

I'd say that things which are always important, in rough order of priority are
1. Number of each type of VP card and Curse in both decks, for games without VP counter. If you get used to tracking the Curses, you'll get used to tracking the Ruins as well.
2. Whether you've seen your important actions this shuffle, and whether your opponent has seen their important actions this shuffle. What count as important depends on the game...but tracking your terminal draw, whether in an engine or a Big Money deck, is always useful.
3. Number of each action owned by each player. This is a prerequisite for 2, but knowing the action count without tracking how many of each action you've seen doesn't help as much. Again, you probably don't need to know all the actions, and it's okay to start with the more impactful ones.

From there you can slowly expand into counting Golds/Plats (which I still don't do that well), alt-VP, etc. For alt-VP, if the point counter is on, I usually wait until I see the VP counter jump up from the alt-VP condition to figure out how much they're worth, and when they'll jump up again.

Everything you count in your deck, you have to count for your opponent too. It's easier to count your deck, but I think knowing a lot about your deck and very little about your opponent is worse than knowing a medium amount about both. Your play gets so much better when you learn that you aren't playing against some invisible timer or turn count, you're playing against another player.
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timchen

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Re: Leveraging Information
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2014, 09:01:26 pm »
0

I think the bottom line is that deck tracking is quite important at making tactical decisions. I would say, however, that it's too tedious to try to track all the VPs, curses, actions, treasures, and whatnot just for that. There probably should be a game aid or something just to tell you what is left in your deck.
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Re: Leveraging Information
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 11:23:03 am »
0

This seems considerably easier online when you can actually read every move by your opponent.
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Re: Leveraging Information
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2014, 11:44:11 am »
0

This seems considerably easier online when you can actually read every move by your opponent.
Not only that, but the cats gained by your opponent are shown in front of your face, and you see all the money being played on the board.

When I play games in person, everyone is just like "I have 6 and buy a Gold", taking the gold in the blink of an eye and barely showing the treasures they played. Everyone just assumes that no one is lying about their buying power. This mostly happens in 1-buy non-engine turns.
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Re: Leveraging Information
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2014, 03:20:29 pm »
+1

This seems considerably easier online when you can actually read every move by your opponent.
Not only that, but the cats gained by your opponent are shown in front of your face, and you see all the money being played on the board.

When I play games in person, everyone is just like "I have 6 and buy a Gold", taking the gold in the blink of an eye and barely showing the treasures they played. Everyone just assumes that no one is lying about their buying power. This mostly happens in 1-buy non-engine turns.

You must play in really weird games. Everyone shoving cats in your face, but refusing to show you the cards they're playing. Anyway: remind the other players of the rules, and threaten violence if necessary. The order of play is:

  • Put treasures from your hand onto the table
  • Gain cards from the supply and put them into your discard pile
  • Discard your play area and hand

With only two hands, if you do this stuff in the correct order you can't help but leave your cards on the table long enough for other players to see them.
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Re: Leveraging Information
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2014, 03:30:45 pm »
0

This seems considerably easier online when you can actually read every move by your opponent.
Not only that, but the cats gained by your opponent are shown in front of your face, and you see all the money being played on the board.

When I play games in person, everyone is just like "I have 6 and buy a Gold", taking the gold in the blink of an eye and barely showing the treasures they played. Everyone just assumes that no one is lying about their buying power. This mostly happens in 1-buy non-engine turns.

This happens to me too, but I try to remind them to play the money.  Sometimes people miscount, and several cards actually care about the treasures you play.
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Titandrake

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Re: Leveraging Information
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2014, 05:57:29 pm »
0

I've never had anyone not play the treasures IRL, but usually people play + shuffle them back in pretty quickly.

Personally, I treat IRL games as non-serious and just do whatever. My counting method is usually by remembering how many copies I have, looking at number left in the supply, and subtracting to get # in other player's deck, and I'm too lazy to continually count the supply piles in real life (especially in multiplayer.)
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Polk5440

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Re: Leveraging Information
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2014, 07:32:57 pm »
+3

"Track everything" is a little deceptive because you can calculate a lot of what you need when the time arises; especially if you are drawing your deck for a large engine: just look your cards.

How much money do I have in my deck? Usually you only care about this number exactly if you are looking to end the game next turn and are drawing your deck. So just count it a turn prior to when you think you will need the information.

Curse split matters for points? Count how many curses you have during one shuffle. Pay attention to the trash. Same with any key split you've lost track of.

You don't need to track your opponent's counts separately from yours. Keep track of what you buy and trash. Use the supply to calculate what your opponent has. Sometimes I track how many buys/gains my opponent is capable of if I am worried about a three pile.

"Tracking everything" is much harder in multiplayer, but also much less necessary because there is (by the nature of there being more players) less you can control in the endgame.

I track very little. I calculate a lot.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 07:34:00 pm by Polk5440 »
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timchen

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Re: Leveraging Information
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2014, 10:33:11 pm »
0

"Track everything" is a little deceptive because you can calculate a lot of what you need when the time arises; especially if you are drawing your deck for a large engine: just look your cards.

How much money do I have in my deck? Usually you only care about this number exactly if you are looking to end the game next turn and are drawing your deck. So just count it a turn prior to when you think you will need the information.

Curse split matters for points? Count how many curses you have during one shuffle. Pay attention to the trash. Same with any key split you've lost track of.

You don't need to track your opponent's counts separately from yours. Keep track of what you buy and trash. Use the supply to calculate what your opponent has. Sometimes I track how many buys/gains my opponent is capable of if I am worried about a three pile.

"Tracking everything" is much harder in multiplayer, but also much less necessary because there is (by the nature of there being more players) less you can control in the endgame.

I track very little. I calculate a lot.
I think this approach missed one important aspect OP mentioned, that is to track what is remaining in your deck (not what are there in your entire deck.) Without careful tracking it is often too late for one to learn this information when it is tactically needed. It is even worse when what you need to know is opponent's remaining deck.
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Re: Leveraging Information
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2014, 12:43:26 pm »
0

"Track everything" is a little deceptive because you can calculate a lot of what you need when the time arises; especially if you are drawing your deck for a large engine: just look your cards.

How much money do I have in my deck? Usually you only care about this number exactly if you are looking to end the game next turn and are drawing your deck. So just count it a turn prior to when you think you will need the information.

Curse split matters for points? Count how many curses you have during one shuffle. Pay attention to the trash. Same with any key split you've lost track of.

You don't need to track your opponent's counts separately from yours. Keep track of what you buy and trash. Use the supply to calculate what your opponent has. Sometimes I track how many buys/gains my opponent is capable of if I am worried about a three pile.

"Tracking everything" is much harder in multiplayer, but also much less necessary because there is (by the nature of there being more players) less you can control in the endgame.

I track very little. I calculate a lot.
I think this approach missed one important aspect OP mentioned, that is to track what is remaining in your deck (not what are there in your entire deck.) Without careful tracking it is often too late for one to learn this information when it is tactically needed. It is even worse when what you need to know is opponent's remaining deck.
But that's not true. At least, when laying online. I also use the calculate method. If I need to know if my opponent will say, play their goons on this next turn, I go back in the log, see when the last reshuffle was and see how many goons were played since then. I know how many goons they have and it's simple.

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Re: Leveraging Information
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2014, 10:57:17 am »
+6

I have recently been re-reading SJ Simon's classic "Why You Lose at Bridge", and he talks about counting in Bridge. He says that people think of counting as this mysterious overwhelming thing that experts do but they can't bother to do. But the truth is that experts know when and what to count. On the majority of hands, you have to count very little, often just trumps, and if you try to count everything, you might get overwhelmed (and you'll annoy the other players with your long thinking on obvious plays). But if you recognize from the start that you need the count for a 2-way finesse or some sort of end-play, then you should try to get the count.

The same thing applies to Dominion. You don't really need to count everything. It's not realistic. But you should be able to recognize what you do need to count in the given situation. If there are alt-VP cards with variable value, you need to count the cards as well as the cards that alter the value, but if none have variable value, you can count score instead. If the game might end on piles, you need to track how many cards your opponent can buy in a given turn. In money games where you're not shuffling that often, you want to know how many Golds are left in each person's draw pile. But you don't need to count all of these things all the time. A lot of the skill in Dominion is in looking ahead to what's going to be happening to make strategic choices for your buys. If you're looking ahead in this way, you should also be able to see what you might need to count.
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