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Author Topic: Menagerie/Herald Discard Engine With Intense Endgame Dance  (Read 1653 times)

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shark_bait

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Secret Chamber, Forager, Market Square, Menagerie, Oasis, Feodum, Herald, Silk Road, Farmland, Harem
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140527/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1401228308890.txt

Played this great game with liopoil last night and it's definitely the sort that warrants a game report.  It is clearly an engine board but it really is quite interesting how all of the cards have some sort of impact of the play of the Kingdom.

Initial Considerations:  There is a ton of alt-VP here with Silk Road present.  This has potential to give high point SR's.  Enablers for an Alt-VP slog are relatively weak.  No attacks are present to slow down an engine.  The only draw is in the form of Herald and Menagerie.  Oasis, Forager and Secret Chamber can be used for Menagerie engine.  Market Square can react to Forager trash for an influx of Gold.  Endgame Farmland could provide a few extra VP and an alternative path to Province.  Interestingly there are no $5 cost cards in this Kingdom other than Duchy.



The Opening:  We both go double Forager for trashing indicating engine play for both.  We both get ideal draws of Forager, Estate, 3xCopper in our turns 4 and 5 adding Market Square and Menagerie.  I like Menagerie but in hindsight I think I'd go Oasis here instead. 

The Lesson:  In the early game be careful of when you activate Market Square for Gold.  You really want to prioritize trashing in this game.  By reacting Market Square you slow down your cycling and inhibit your deck slimming.  Similarly in a Chapel/Market Square game it would often be better to play your Market Squares until you have used Chapel almost to its full extent.  In this game going Oasis would also provide a higher chance of Menagerie activation.

The Play:  Mid-game is where we begin to deviate slightly, but both still going engine.  One main difference is that I pound Menageries harder than he does.  As 2nd player I manage a 6/4 win in the split.  He picked up an Oasis instead.

The Lesson:  Know what piles are key and prioritize winning the split.  In this game one key card is Menagerie.  With all of the ways to activate they will very likely be $3-cost double Labs.  This is a key split to win.  Herald can also provide hand size increases but the downside is that you lose control of what action is played with the reveal.  This could result in playing Forager with no target, Market Square when you want it in hand to gain Gold or Menagerie with duplicates in hand.  Herald is important in this set as it is the only way to obtain +2 Actions enabling Secret Chamber discards, but the numerous downsides and $4-cost make it less of a priority.

On Turn 10 we start to diverge slightly.  He activates his Market Squares to have a total of 3 Gold in his deck and uses his cash to get 3 Heralds giving me better drawing power to make up for his lack of Menagerie.

My Turn 10 results in 2 Oases, 1 Market Square and 1 Forager.  I plan on pumping up Forager to $2, gaining extra Gold with Market Square's reaction and drawing back up.  I want to keep a deck that has a low chance of stalling.  This works, up until a certain extent but we'll get to that later.

The Endgame:  Our engines are build and are running full throttle.  Let's take a quick break to consider our deck states. 

I have won the Menagerie split 6/4 and have an extra Forager, Market Square and Oasis.  He has a couple of extra Heralds and a Secret Chamber due to my having to trash it the previous turn.  We both have 3 Gold.

liopoil T11:  $16 => Province, Oasis, Herald

shark_bait T11:  $18 =>  Double Province, Secret Chamber

liopoil T12:  $16 =>  Double Province, Copper

Okay so in the span of 1.5 turns we have just put the Province pile down to 3.  I am 2nd player here and I don't like it.  At this point we are following the Antepenultimate Province Rule (APR).  Both of our decks can double Province with relative ease so if I buy a single one, I will lose.

sharkbait T12:  $17 => So this is where I stop to think for quite some time.  With $17 I can go Farmland (Gold to Province) and Province but that means he wins next turn with Province/Duchy which is easily attainable.  Ultimately I decide that my best chance to win is to ignore Province and grab points.  A Farmland would be nice to have however I have no good targets in hand and I don't want to buy one and not utilize the trashing effect.

My T12 results in Triple Duchy.

liopoil T13:  $16 =>  Double Duchy + Harem

Again, he can't get a Province because even with green, the power of discarding to activate Menagerie means my deck still could double Province.

shark_bait T13:  $15 =>  Triple Duchy

So I wasn't quite able to get double Province but liopoil was still correct in ignoring Provinces I think.

It's at this point in the game where our once phenomenal engines are beginning to show signs of stalling.

liopoil T14:  $14 =>  With my deck seemingly unable to double Province he safely picks up the antepenultimate Province and another Harem.

shark_bait T14:  $8 =>  Double Silk Road

liopoil T15:  $5 =>  Silk Road

shark_bait T15:  $6 =>  Silk Road

At this point we are tied at 36 VP.  Our decks are falling apart as we are unable to draw through due to the heavy influx of green.

liopoil T16:  $12 =>  Province and Silk Road

He takes a gamble here and grabs the Penultimate Province.  I'm not sure if this is correct or not.  His other option would be double Silk Road (evening the split at 3/3).  He has more cash than me from his Harems.  However he lacks +Buy compared to my 2 Market Squares for any sort of Estate rush.  So unless he is able to make use of his Harems for Province or more Harems/Farmland I don't know if they would be useful.

shark_bait T16:  $8 =>  Province  (for a 1-point victory by getting 6 points in addition to reaching the next plateau for Silk Roads)

So had he gone Double Silk Road I would have been able to go Double Silk Road myself here getting a 5/3 split.  With that lead I think the game is tilted in my favor as my +Buy and split lead are more suited for rushing Estates as a 3rd pile.

Conclussions:  This was a very though provoking Kingdom to play.  Almost all the cards in the Kingdom saw play and there were numerous interactions between various action cards to make a very potent engine.  Another thing to note is the huge presence of Alt-VP.  As 2nd Player, I lose this game without this alt-VP.  This game was a classic representation of potent engine building followed by a rush for points.  Inability to get a VP cushion led to a hard end-game stall.  My opponent took a tactical risk in a very exciting and close game (just look at the VP graph by turn to see how close this really was).

Thanks to liopoil for a fun, albeit long for online play (almost 40 minutes). 

   
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liopoil

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Re: Menagerie/Herald Discard Engine With Intense Endgame Dance
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2014, 05:58:48 pm »
+2

I remember this game! Yeah, very nice kingdom. I think I made two main mistakes: I should have prioritized menagerie over oasis, and I think my harems maybe should have been duchies. If my turn 13 had been triple duchy your turn 13 would have been much worse and I would have a points lead and the turn I think. I don't think either of us ever had a points lead at the start of their turn (besides in the early game).

Farmland certainly has potential to play a big role in this kingdom, but interestingly it was always just barely the right choice to pass on it.

On buying the penultimate province: I think it was the wrong call. Had I realized you were one card away from powering up your silk roads I wouldn't have gotten it - and really I should have counted to see if you were or not. But as you say, even if I had gone double silk road I would have still probably lost.
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shark_bait

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Re: Menagerie/Herald Discard Engine With Intense Endgame Dance
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2014, 09:29:21 am »
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I remember this game! Yeah, very nice kingdom. I think I made two main mistakes: I should have prioritized menagerie over oasis, and I think my harems maybe should have been duchies. If my turn 13 had been triple duchy your turn 13 would have been much worse and I would have a points lead and the turn I think. I don't think either of us ever had a points lead at the start of their turn (besides in the early game).

Farmland certainly has potential to play a big role in this kingdom, but interestingly it was always just barely the right choice to pass on it.

On buying the penultimate province: I think it was the wrong call. Had I realized you were one card away from powering up your silk roads I wouldn't have gotten it - and really I should have counted to see if you were or not. But as you say, even if I had gone double silk road I would have still probably lost.

I'm not sure my T13 would have been worse.  I could have just done Double Duchy and SR.  Which as long as the game is extended enough SR will be the same as Duchy.

In regards to Farmland I actually almost bought it solely to have the endgame control of being able to get Province for $6 without sacrificing a Gold.  The issue was that I didn't have a good trashing target and really wanted the points immediately from Duchy.  It's a tough call but if played again I think Farmland could make an appearance.
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soulnet

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Re: Menagerie/Herald Discard Engine With Intense Endgame Dance
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2014, 09:58:02 am »
+1

Nice game and nice report. This kind of engine-mirror turning into a sloggy-mirror is not that rare, so I wonder, should one prepare for it from the go or at least from the beginning of the endgame? For instance, getting a single Silver, which will not stop a Menagerie engine too much (and can actually help)? Try getting more diverse green earlier (Harem+SR instead of two Duchies may be the right call on turns 12 and 13 for both, especially with the potential for SRs)?
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shark_bait

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Re: Menagerie/Herald Discard Engine With Intense Endgame Dance
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2014, 10:28:26 am »
+1

Nice game and nice report. This kind of engine-mirror turning into a sloggy-mirror is not that rare, so I wonder, should one prepare for it from the go or at least from the beginning of the endgame? For instance, getting a single Silver, which will not stop a Menagerie engine too much (and can actually help)? Try getting more diverse green earlier (Harem+SR instead of two Duchies may be the right call on turns 12 and 13 for both, especially with the potential for SRs)?

You make an appealing point.  The tough thing about delaying points via SR and Harem is that you give an opening to your opponent to continue pushing for Provinces.  Let's consider what happens if one of us forgoes Province in hopes of high point Alt-VP.

In either case if I or liopoil doesn't go for Province the other player has 5 of them at the end of turn 13.  For me, that would be 5 Provinces instead of 2 Provinces and 6 Duchies.  For liopoil that would be 5 Provinces instead of 3 Provinces, 2 Duchies and a Harem.  So my deck would be better while his would be slightly worse.  Given our hands on T14, T15 and T16 I think it is reasonable to assume that either one of us could finish the Provinces in 17 turns netting 48 points.

A player going Alt-VP would need 8 SR, 4 Duchies and 2 Harems and 2 Estates to get 50 points.   The total cost for those VP are $66 and 16 Buys.  In turns 11 to 16 liopoil obtained $79 and 13 Buys while I obtained $72 and 20 Buys.  This has to be taken with a grain of salt because doing this will make a deck significantly worse than just going for Province so our $$$ would probably be less.  liopoil does not have enough +Buy to make this approach viable.  I have enough +Buy but the question is whether my deck could still generate enough cash to make Alt-VP better than Province.  It's definitely an interesting though experiment.

As for a Silver, the opportunity cost for Silver is Oasis.  The ability of Oasis to discard a duplicate card is better than the uniqueness of Silver I think.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 11:50:38 am by shark_bait »
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