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Author Topic: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together  (Read 31875 times)

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Jimmmmm

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2011, 07:50:31 pm »
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The strongest of these being the unstoppable pin from  KC/KC/outpost/masq where your entire deck goes poof the moment I play the combo.

A variation on KC/KC/Goons/Masquerade??!!

Mind = blown.
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rspeer

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2011, 08:22:13 pm »
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Caravan + Library.

When Possession is on the board, don't buy Ambassador or Governor.

The Ambassador thing is too simplicistic as discussed already in other threads. As an interesting example I will give this game:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111007-113232-dbf0d6d8.html

WW with creative play almost got out the bad 2/5 start (an example too for interesting _non_ identical starting hands). Ambassador and a little luck nevertheless were key to success.

Yeah, Amb/Possession is not so much a nombo as it is a game of chicken in a lot of cases. You probably can't get away with not buying an Ambassador. You probably can't get away with not buying Possession once Ambassadors are out. So you'd better get some trashers to trash your Ambassador before it becomes dangerous.
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jomini

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2011, 02:33:40 pm »
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The strongest of these being the unstoppable pin from  KC/KC/outpost/masq where your entire deck goes poof the moment I play the combo.

A variation on KC/KC/Goons/Masquerade??!!

Mind = blown.

Yeah, there are a lot of variants on that one. The most wild one I know that works is TR/Minion/outpost/masq. In the simple case your hand consists of TR, TR, Minion, Outpost, Masq. Play minion for 4, then play TR -> TR -> outpost (stays out with a TR) -> Masq (x2). This leaves the opponent with 2 cards and in your outpost turn you play minion -> TR -> Masq and destroy those two cards. I like the outpost/KC variant because it can't be stopped by reactions as nothing in the setup is an official attack, also it is fast enough that it is viable in 3 player (the more fortunate player gets 4 cards to pay from the player upstream until his deck begins to be directly attacked).


Masq is actually the only require card in the combo. You need a way to play more dead masqs (where you have nothing to pass) than the opponent has cards (obviously helped by hand reduction attacks). Outpost can be used creatively to double the number of dead masq hits, and of course KC and TR work wonders, but there are a few other ways get to those dead hits (golem with controlled discard or native village shenanigans).

For a lot of options, you are further ahead ignoring the pin or just whacking them around with your own hand reducers or whacking them around with your own masqs for expensive cards, or mucking around with duration cards (e.g. tactician, haven)  to end the game before you you get obliterated ... but when they work, pins like these are insanely effective.
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dondon151

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2011, 11:05:49 pm »
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Wait, I don't quite follow how you can get more dead Masq hits by using Golem or Native Village. When you Golem into Masq, you need to both not have any cards in hand and not have any cards in the deck or discard pile to not pass any cards... which means that you can only play one Masq. If you use Native Village, you can reduce your handsize, but you can still only play one Masq.

The only ways I can think of playing a Masq multiple times in a turn that yields no cards in hand and no cards in deck or discard are TR, KC, and Outpost. Maybe I'm missing something obvious?
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2011, 04:49:07 am »
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Golem -> NV and Masq (only cards in deck). Play Masq first drawing and passing nothing, NV second picking up a Masq from the NV mat. Play Masq.
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dondon151

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2011, 07:43:15 am »
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Oh, derp, I keep forgetting that you can play cards that you reveal from Golem in either order, and not the order in which you reveal them.
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jomini

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2011, 10:02:31 am »
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Wait, I don't quite follow how you can get more dead Masq hits by using Golem or Native Village. When you Golem into Masq, you need to both not have any cards in hand and not have any cards in the deck or discard pile to not pass any cards... which means that you can only play one Masq. If you use Native Village, you can reduce your handsize, but you can still only play one Masq.

The only ways I can think of playing a Masq multiple times in a turn that yields no cards in hand and no cards in deck or discard are TR, KC, and Outpost. Maybe I'm missing something obvious?
Well take the simple case: I have a hand consisting of golem, KC, hamlet, masq, masq. I hamlet away a masq and a KC for actions. Play the golem, now I can KC the dead masq left in hand 3 times and play the other masq (pulled by the golem) once dead for a net kill of 4 cards.

This still isn't enough for a true pin, but with a strong enough draw engine, some villages, and a hand reducer attack (margrave and ghost ship being particularly nice, but it can even work well enough with something like cutpurse), it can be game over regardless of the point spread.


Another shot is a hand reduction attack (e.g. militia), a draw engine, a discarder (e.g. hamlet, secret chamber), golem, masq, and native villages. So you draw your entire deck and discard  golem, masq, masq, and a copy of your discarder. Now you play 4 NVs in a row and place those 4 cards on the mat. Play your hand reduction attack (opponent has 3 cards), discard a NV and a masq, and then play through the rest of your deck till you have nothing left in hand except a golem. Play golem then a dead masq, then bring everything from the mat back to hand. Opponent has two cards which you can kill by discarding two masqs and goleming them.

Obviously working without TR or KC is much more difficult than having either of them, but it can be done. I'd avoid trying to set this up unless there is some great engine factory and I've already fallen way behind in normal scoring (e.g. opponent has 3 colonies to my 0), but it is a marginally viable Hail Mary when you lack any other option. Even with possible substitutions, I'd say this is around a 2.5 card combo and is rare enough that I work with it more for the fun of figuring out how to do it rather than it being dominant.
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meshuggah42

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2011, 11:10:41 am »
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Young Witch with Scheme as bane: couple of days ago this was the setup, he bought YW, I bought a single Scheme and kept returning it to the deck. Result: 0 Curses gained. :)
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mischiefmaker

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2011, 05:29:45 pm »
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I can't count how many times I've gotten a cursing attack, then thought to myself, "Self, how could I play this cursing attack more often? Ooh, I know, I can trash the rest of my deck! Hey-o, Bishop!"

Bonus stupid points if the cursing attack happens to be terminal draw.
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Razzishi

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2011, 01:20:44 am »
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Caravan/Laboratory + Jack/Library/Watchtower - Don't waste your time drawing cards two different ways when one hinders the other.

Warehouse/Cellar + Vault - You can cycle your deck faster in order to play Vault more often....but you don't get to hit the coin amount you really want to.

Noble Brigand (or Thief) in a Tunnel game featuring other good enablers - Sure, there might be a lot of Gold to steal, but you might just give them more Gold instead.

Minion + Bank - Maybe if you had a bunch of villages and Black Markets?

Adventurer + Cache - I missed 6 for Gold; Cache is good enough, right?

Moneylender/Spice Merchant/Loan + Stables - If I cycle my deck faster, I can trash my Copper even faster, and then....er.....

Oasis + Chapel - At least, as an opener.  Might be viable after Chapel becomes a dead draw.

Baron + Salvager - Maybe if you really want more Estates to Salvage and really need multiples buys every single turn.

Menagerie + Coppersmith/Counting House - Menagerie usually gets hung up on Copper; it doesn't need encouragement in that regard.

Chapel + Gardens - everyone else thought it was too obvious to warrant mentioning, or I'm blind.
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dondon151

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2011, 11:18:27 am »
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I remember a 4p game where 2 went Council Room, 2 went Library.

The Library players threw their hands up in frustration because they'd end up starting their turns with 7 cards in hand.
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Forge!!!

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2011, 11:59:50 am »
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Torturers are pretty bad when your opponent is using JOAT. Just had a game where my opponent had 3 torturers used in one turn, I discarded down to my one card, got a curse with the 3rd torturer, drew back up to 11, trashed the curse and bought a colony.
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ecq

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2011, 10:45:27 am »
+1

Golem has been mentioned a few times.  Here's a non-obvious one that bit me the other day: Golem-Wharf

"But," you think, "Set up correctly, that would give me 13 cards and 5 buys every turn, guaranteed!"

It's the "Set up correctly" part that's broken.  It's virtually impossible to set up and keep going.  Wharf doesn't get discarded until the end of the next turn.  So, in order to keep this running, you need 4x Wharf.  Then you need enough Golems that can you're very likely to find one in any given set of 9 cards.  So, you're loading up your deck with terminals.  Not great.

But that's fine, you have that awesome 13 card hand.  Guess what it contains?  Probably at least one Wharf and a couple of Golems.  The Golems can't get to the Wharf/Wharves in your hand, and you can't play both because they're terminal.  So what's the remedy?  Buy more Wharves?  Ultimately that's just more dead cards to draw.  Buy Villages?  That just dilutes the engine.

While you're pondering the situation, your opponent buys the last Province, because it took you so long for you to accumulate all those Wharves and Golems.
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jomini

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2011, 12:08:04 pm »
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Golem/warf works really well with any discard. Yes it requires 4 wharves, but you need 10 coin off a warf hand to buy 2 in a go - that ain't exactly hard. After that cellar, warehouse, young witch, hamlet, secret chamber, vault, horse traders, oasis, embassy, and inn will all allow you to drop wharves into your discard and increase your odds of hitting the cards you really want. Yeah, sometimes you will hit your discarder (or an enabling village) instead of a wharf, but that should end up being fairly rare.

So yeah, this is bad with no assistance, but with a lot of boards it can be quite strong.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2011, 12:15:53 pm »
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Golem/warf works really well with any discard. Yes it requires 4 wharves, but you need 10 coin off a warf hand to buy 2 in a go - that ain't exactly hard. After that cellar, warehouse, young witch, hamlet, secret chamber, vault, horse traders, oasis, embassy, and inn will all allow you to drop wharves into your discard and increase your odds of hitting the cards you really want. Yeah, sometimes you will hit your discarder (or an enabling village) instead of a wharf, but that should end up being fairly rare.

So yeah, this is bad with no assistance, but with a lot of boards it can be quite strong.
But adding these extra things makes it even slooooooower, and its problem is that it's too slow in the first place. You have to compete with the fast, strong, BM/Wharf here.

jomini

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2011, 01:25:26 pm »
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I'm not sure how adding in a couple of purchases makes it that much slower. Cellar, for instance is a 2 coin card that you can spam buy off any 2, 7 or 10 coin hand without too much trouble. Granted, my play is biased towards colonies, but cellar/golem/wharf was pretty blindingly fast to 4 colonies.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2011, 01:38:40 pm »
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I'm not sure how adding in a couple of purchases makes it that much slower. Cellar, for instance is a 2 coin card that you can spam buy off any 2, 7 or 10 coin hand without too much trouble. Granted, my play is biased towards colonies, but cellar/golem/wharf was pretty blindingly fast to 4 colonies.
Well, a couple purchases makes it a couple turns slower, in general. But the big thing is that you need: a purchase for potion, a purchase for golem, another purchase for golem, an extra wharf or two, and a cellar or two... it just takes a lot of time to do all that, when BM/Wharf is pretty blindingly fast too.

yuma

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2011, 02:22:28 pm »
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Just experienced a Bishop/Highway turn where my +5 highways made just about anything I trashed only worth a one Victory point. That was a little frustrating, especially since I only realized it about halfway through the game...
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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2011, 05:28:09 am »
+1

Ironworks, Quarry.
Man, I thought I was going to rock this game, with Nobles on board. Quarry would make them cost only 4, so I could pick them up with my Ironworks, netting me +1 card, +1 action. And so cheap and easy to set up!


Until you finally get them together in your hand and realize you don't play your Quarry until after the action phase. Sigh.

I'd like to try this with a Black Market, to play my Quarry earlier. But then I'd need +actions, requiring another village-like card, making this a *very* slow engine for little effect.
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Qvist

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2011, 05:59:00 am »
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Once I made the mistake and buyed Quarry with the intent to play Workshop/Ironworks/University to gain better cards.
I think you know why that didn't work. ;)

Ironworks, Quarry.
Man, I thought I was going to rock this game, with Nobles on board. Quarry would make them cost only 4, so I could pick them up with my Ironworks, netting me +1 card, +1 action. And so cheap and easy to set up!


Until you finally get them together in your hand and realize you don't play your Quarry until after the action phase. Sigh.

I'd like to try this with a Black Market, to play my Quarry earlier. But then I'd need +actions, requiring another village-like card, making this a *very* slow engine for little effect.

Two guys, same mistake. At least I know I'm not the only who made the mistake. Thanks for that ;)

jotheonah

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2011, 10:09:20 am »
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Ambassador and Ill-Gotten Gains, if not done carefully, is a good way to give yourself a pile of curses, which, while hilarious, is not the best idea.
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dondon151

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2011, 07:25:07 pm »
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Ironworks, Quarry.
Man, I thought I was going to rock this game, with Nobles on board. Quarry would make them cost only 4, so I could pick them up with my Ironworks, netting me +1 card, +1 action. And so cheap and easy to set up!

I did something similar once with Talisman instead of Ironworks. I thought that I could pick up 2 Nobles for 1 with both Talisman and Quarry in play, but conveniently neglected the fine print on Talisman...
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GendoIkari

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2011, 12:19:55 pm »
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Ironworks, Quarry.
Man, I thought I was going to rock this game, with Nobles on board. Quarry would make them cost only 4, so I could pick them up with my Ironworks, netting me +1 card, +1 action. And so cheap and easy to set up!

I did something similar once with Talisman instead of Ironworks. I thought that I could pick up 2 Nobles for 1 with both Talisman and Quarry in play, but conveniently neglected the fine print on Talisman...

Don't feel bad, I just spend about 30 seconds thinking about that trying to figure out why it wouldn't work...
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jotheonah

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2011, 02:39:14 pm »
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Yeah, I seem to have selective amnesia for that clause on Talisman. Oh, there are Great Halls and Islands? Who wouldn't buy a Talisman? Oh, NV/Bridge? Talisman would make that so much better cause you can grab two Provinces at a time.
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glasser

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Re: Not Combos -- Cards that don't work well together
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2011, 04:55:35 pm »
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Yeah, I seem to have selective amnesia for that clause on Talisman. Oh, there are Great Halls and Islands? Who wouldn't buy a Talisman? Oh, NV/Bridge? Talisman would make that so much better cause you can grab two Provinces at a time.

Did that in an in-person game recently, with Talisman, Ironworks, and Silk Road.  Played copper and three Talismans, got myself four Silk Roads. We realized my mistake a couple turns later, at which point the game state was entirely unreconstructable.

In retrospect that's not even the best strategy anyway, since Silk Roads that are only pairing with themselves and estates are unlikely to be worth as much as duchies.
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