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Author Topic: Choking  (Read 6523 times)

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BadAssMutha

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Choking
« on: May 24, 2014, 10:01:46 pm »
+3

We've all had it happen - you've painstakingly trimmed your deck, setting up a great engine that's poised to go off and win you the game. Maybe you've got mega-Menagerie draw, are about to pull the trigger on a Horn of Plenty deck, or have a nice Festival-Library thing going on. It's time to green - you've either just started, or are continuing to plow through the Provinces - just keep up that pace and you'll win.

That's when it happens. The shuffle comes around, and... your deck chokes. You draw two Provinces off the top, killing your Menagerie draw. All 5 of your HoPs are in your hand, earning you 5 Poor Houses. Maybe you drew all of your Libraries together with no Festival. Seriously? Your deck is so chock full of good cards, how the heck did this happen?

Even with a high density of excellent action cards, it only takes a few non-drawers to stop an engine dead after a shuffle. Usually, there's not a whole lot you can do, but I wanted to make a thread discussing some options. To make a choke-resistant engine, there's a few things you can do.

1. Single-card strategies. Monolithic engines like Hunting Party or Minion don't choke so often, since having only one in hand usually means you're off to the races. Engines that rely on multiple cards for +Actions, +$, or +Cards can fail to line up more frequently.
2. Deck control. It's not so common when you can do this, but if you're drawing your deck every turn, think if there's any way to help set up your next turn. Maybe you can Courtyard or Count a Hunting Party or Lab on top of your deck for next turn, or perhaps use Warehouse on an empty deck followed by a cantrip to effectively put two cards on top. Anything to ensure that you've got at least SOME good cards on top of your deck, and won't run into a full 5-card choke.
3. Watch out for absolute deck size. Considering two decks of the same action density (of less than 1), the larger one will choke more often. If you have at least 5 card that don't draw, it's possible for your deck to choke. Think about if you really need that extra treasure for your last turn, or if it's just going to increase the chances of a catastrophic choke.

Any other ideas?
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heron

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Re: Choking
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2014, 10:27:51 pm »
0

You need to be careful when you trigger a reshuffle, especially in games with sifters.

If you are playing a warehouse-menagerie engine, for example, and you are having a good turn and are about to play a menagerie which will cause a reshuffle, you have to consider:
-What is in my discard pile right now? In the menagerie-warehouse example, probably a bunch of coppers and some green. That a poor draw pile.
-Will I be able to draw through my draw pile again after I reshuffle? If you are able to draw through to nearly another reshuffle, you don't have to worry so much. However, if you can't, that means that at the start of your next turn, all of the good cards you played last turn are in the discard, and your draw pile is junk.

Another strategy for which you have to be extra careful about this is hunting party; if you trigger a reshuffle with your last hunting party, next turn all of your hunting parties are partying in the discard pile instead of partying in your hand.
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silverspawn

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Re: Choking
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2014, 10:32:03 pm »
+1

deck control is the key. courtyard, mandarin and count are the obvious ways to do that, but there are some others. storeroom can get you as many cards on top as you want, if you draw your whole deck and can still spare them. cartographer and apothecary can do it too, it's just harder to pull off.

sometimes, it's all about not drawing your whole deck, if you already drew all your buying power and the cards left in your drawing pile are valuable engine pieces.

dondon151

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Re: Choking
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2014, 11:06:08 pm »
+21

Use the Heimlich maneuver.
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markusin

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Re: Choking
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2014, 11:57:27 pm »
0

This is kinda specific, but having a way to set aside the green cards you gain with Island or Native Village as they flow into your deck is a great way to avoid choking. Maybe you have a workshop to gain Island mid-turn, or a way to know if a green card is on top for Native Village to set aside.
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KingZog3

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Re: Choking
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2014, 01:48:23 am »
+1

Use the Heimlich maneuver.

Being tired and Scotch made this comment much more funny than it really is.
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WalrusMcFishSr

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Re: Choking
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2014, 02:02:07 am »
+67

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assemble_me

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Re: Choking
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2014, 06:05:55 am »
0

Duration cards help to prevent chocking as well. Fishing Village helps you with that extra action to not draw your draw cards dead. Having a bunch of Wharves and Caravans in play will lead to a big hand right at the start of the turn reducing the chances of a missing engine piece and a well set up double Tactician deck is very reliable, too. Finally Haven helps deck control, so you can pick one of your engine pieces you don't really need this turn and seed your next hand with it.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 08:50:37 am by assemble_me »
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DG

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Re: Choking
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2014, 09:34:21 am »
0

Minions do choke if you want to use them for coins instead of cycling. VP chips give alternatives to choking on green cards. Coin tokens can be saved from turn to turn. Havens can save cards from turn to turn. Spoils can be saved for a finish. Gaining cards can continue when you have no coin income, even if you have to remodel a province to gain another one. Cards that search through your deck, such as counting house and venture, can be resistant to greening as well.

The best thing to do to prevent choking is to build your deck a bit longer so it can sustain to the end.
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markusin

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Re: Choking
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2014, 09:56:25 am »
+1


Ah Walrus, always with the helpful pictoral representations.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Choking
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2014, 11:07:27 am »
+6

You guys touch on the idea that you can usually construct a deck to prevent choking, and that some people choke themselves out by either building something unsustainable or screwing up their own shuffles.

However, here's an interesting proposition for you:

If two players of equal skill build the same deck, one of them building it to be 75% choke-proof and the other 99%, the 75% player will win 75% of games.

Chokeproofing often comes at the cost of building your deck below its potential. You sacrifice cash for consistency, which means you're sacrificing buys you could have had. It's important to balance chokeproofing with aggression to maximize your win potential... Dominion is played against an opponent, and the more aggressive player often wins.
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silverspawn

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Re: Choking
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2014, 12:02:28 pm »
0

You guys touch on the idea that you can usually construct a deck to prevent choking, and that some people choke themselves out by either building something unsustainable or screwing up their own shuffles.

However, here's an interesting proposition for you:

If two players of equal skill build the same deck, one of them building it to be 75% choke-proof and the other 99%, the 75% player will win 75% of games.

Chokeproofing often comes at the cost of building your deck below its potential. You sacrifice cash for consistency, which means you're sacrificing buys you could have had. It's important to balance chokeproofing with aggression to maximize your win potential... Dominion is played against an opponent, and the more aggressive player often wins.

i don't see how we really said that, maybe except dg. it's really more about making the best out of what you have during your turn rather than about how you build your deck. often, there are possibilities to prepare your next turn in some way, with cards that you bought anyway, which players don't recognize.

also, your proposition isn't correct. the game isn't just one turn, if your deck chokes 25% of all time, you get 75% sucess rate for one turn, 56% for two, and 42% for three. it's pretty likely that it will choke sooner or later, and then the 99% player has good chances to win.

Stealth Tomato

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Re: Choking
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2014, 05:34:33 pm »
0

also, your proposition isn't correct. the game isn't just one turn, if your deck chokes 25% of all time, you get 75% sucess rate for one turn, 56% for two, and 42% for three. it's pretty likely that it will choke sooner or later, and then the 99% player has good chances to win.

I didn't say 25% of turns. 25% of games.
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silverspawn

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Re: Choking
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2014, 09:12:32 pm »
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also, your proposition isn't correct. the game isn't just one turn, if your deck chokes 25% of all time, you get 75% sucess rate for one turn, 56% for two, and 42% for three. it's pretty likely that it will choke sooner or later, and then the 99% player has good chances to win.

I didn't say 25% of turns. 25% of games.

well, if someone does build an engine that has a 99% chance not to choke for the entire game, then he is probably doing something wrong. I don't really think oversecuring an engine is a very common mistake though.

jomini

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Re: Choking
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2014, 02:01:44 am »
+1

A few other ways to prevent the choke:
1. Top decking your buys/gains. Wt is king here. Dump a Squire & Wt on top of your deck, makes for great odds of not choking next turn. Other options - like Graverobber and Develop are vastly more situational, but can be strong. Armory can work quite well to leave you with a Village or Smithy. Inn and
2. Add in cannabalizers. Apprentice, Remodel, Butcher, Salvager, etc. Can all decrease the choke odds. If you are ahead on green, burning a province can be just as good as gaining one sometimes; beyond that a lot of stuff works well to turn component into last minute Duchies. It should rarely be determinative, but choke potential should inform your decision about when to take which cards at the margin.
3. Sifting. Cellar can be an absolute godsend. If you have some spare cash - look at the $2 and $3'd long and hard.

Ways to induce choking:
1. Don't play the attack. If you track the opponent's deck, you may not want to play some attacks. The most obvious is Margrave. He is quite strong, but you can often increase the opponent's odds of losing more by not playing him at the end game. Picking a village and smithy out of 6 is a lot easier than out of 4.
2. Do consider late game cursing. Did you fight down the Ambassador war to ultra thin decks? As your opponent goes from an ultra-lean deck to something holding some green and other stop cards like cash - dumping in extra junk - even if he can clear it when he draws his deck can be strong. Chapel doesn't always mean skip cursing, it sometimes means curse just as he gets in danger of choking (and remember a single curse at game end is often as good as a Duchy ... and Witch even draws cards).
3. B-Crat. Silver sucks in an engine - maybe - but green is absolutely deadly. Particularly if my trashing or sifting has some slack adding in a B-crat goes a long way to increasing the stop odds against my opponent. Rabble is often better, but I think people tend to see it even without looking for margin on chokes.
4. Masq. It is rare when passing on Masq is good, but getting one late game - particularly fishing out of the Black Market deck - puts your opponent into a hard place. Choosing to give up a village or smithy vs gold or green can be extremely effective. You might even want to pass over something useful, but which the opponent already has in overabundance (e.g. hand them an extra Smithy so you can get +2 cards and hopefully a village, gold or green).

Above all:
Remember the 3 pile. If you do choke at some point. What are your odds if you swap to a three pile ending? Overbuying villages will lose the long game, but if your opponent fails to pad out with green you can win. If they do pad out with green (particularly if you can gain more 3-pile threat material) early you might be able to get them to choke in kind. Always fight for that last 5% chance of not losing.
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prom_vrt

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Re: Choking
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2014, 06:22:41 am »
0

Cantrip decks (Market-Conspirator-GM) chokes easily.
Game with sifters/discard attacks is more resilent to greening. IMO
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dominator 123

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Re: Choking
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2014, 07:41:04 am »
0

Megaturn decks, like Hermit/Market Square, Native Village/Bridge, HoP etc. ends the game before it has a chance to choke. Also the Golden Decks (Bishop/Fortress, HoP/Mandarin) never choke as it deals with the green. Also Goons.

Edit: Typo
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 07:57:49 am by dominator 123 »
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Re: Choking
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2014, 07:54:32 am »
+3

Megaturn decks, like Hermit/Market Square, Native Village/Bridge, HoP etc. ends the game before it has a chance to choke. Also the Golden Decks (Bishop/Fortress, HoP/Mandarin) never choke as it deals win the green. Also Goons.
Don't forget to include Counting House-Scheme-Throne Room-Festival-Storeroom decks in your list.
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KingZog3

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Re: Choking
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2014, 08:17:12 am »
0

Megaturn decks, like Hermit/Market Square, Native Village/Bridge, HoP etc. ends the game before it has a chance to choke. Also the Golden Decks (Bishop/Fortress, HoP/Mandarin) never choke as it deals win the green. Also Goons.
Don't forget to include Counting House-Scheme-Throne Room-Festival-Storeroom decks in your list.

I think you mean Counting House-Scheme-Throne Room-Festival-Storeroom-Inn decks.
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AdamH

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Re: Choking
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2014, 09:55:50 am »
+1

You guys touch on the idea that you can usually construct a deck to prevent choking, and that some people choke themselves out by either building something unsustainable or screwing up their own shuffles.

However, here's an interesting proposition for you:

If two players of equal skill build the same deck, one of them building it to be 75% choke-proof and the other 99%, the 75% player will win 75% of games.

Chokeproofing often comes at the cost of building your deck below its potential. You sacrifice cash for consistency, which means you're sacrificing buys you could have had. It's important to balance chokeproofing with aggression to maximize your win potential... Dominion is played against an opponent, and the more aggressive player often wins.

You know, I really think this is misleading. Yes, choking is something that should be taken into account when the game starts because you need to consider what you can do about it and if there is anything, you want to build it into your deck accordingly.

But if not, if the answer to "what is my response to choking?" can only be "build more before you green" or maybe "build while you green" then I don't think the correct way to look at it is the way you're implying.

Don't be all: "my deck is 75% choke-resistant, time to green!" or "how do I get my deck to the point where it's able to green as soon as possible?" Look at what your opponent is doing at the first time you could possibly consider greening (well, every turn because you should be doing that anyways)

Is it a mirror? Are you ahead? If you're ahead, play conservatively -- build more to deny your opponent components and give yourself more endgame control and reliability (and maybe stake out a small lead at the same time -- enough to prevent nasty surprise endings). Are you behind? You should probably put the pressure on now: get points and then either attack piles or just hope that your initiative on greening is enough to pull you through. Is it the same? Even tougher call and it depends more on the kingdom, but the kind of questions you should be asking yourself involve the payload of your engine (how many Provinces (or other green cards of your choice) do you want each turn?) How much does it hurt me to have one stall turn? Two stall turns? How do I win this game? How do I lose this game?

Is it not a mirror? Figure out how you're going to end the game and how long it's going to take and build your deck to last exactly that long.

Your percentages -- well it's clear that these are numbers you made up and that's OK, but I'd like to make my own numbers up in that case (though I think the numbers are completely irrelevant; at high levels games are won and lost through these endgame decisions and I think the cases where you are "playing the odds" at this point in the game are very rare. You make your own shuffle luck, remember?). One of the hallmarks of my play style is to overbuild sometimes and play more conservatively and I'd say that 75% of the time you shouldn't take the first opportunity to green, and rather you should build more. Yeah this is probably the other extreme of play style but I'd like to think I'm a successful Dominion player too and I think this advice, when taken without understanding the decisions being made, will not be helpful most of the time.

I mean, the person with the better deck gets more endgame control, so I would think the player who builds more gets and advantage that way unless they're falling too far behind on points.

I don't think you're wrong, ST, I just want to provide a counterpoint to your argument and bring up some points I think are being overlooked.
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