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[Jimmmmm]

Dice Mafia

Player List

1. ashersky: Vanilla Townie - lynched Day 4
2. chairs: Town Manipulator - lynched Day 3
3. yuma/2.71828.....: Town Thief - lynched Day 2
4. mail-mi/Archetype: Mafia Tactician - lynched Day 6
5. BoxOfDog: Vanilla Townie - killed Night 1
6. Voltaire: Mafia Roleblocker - lynched Day 1
7. faust: Town Universal Backup - killed Night 4
8. XerxesPraelor: Town Mentalist Advisor - killed Night 2
9. Witherweaver: Town 3-Shot Saboteur - killed Night 5
10. Beyond Awesome: Town Arms Inspector
11. Ichimaru Gin: Town Priest - killed Night 3
12. liopoil: Mafia Noble Brigand - lynched Day 5
13. Hydrad: Town Tinkerer
14. pingpongsam: Town Swindler

co-mod: EFHW

Day 1
Day 2
Day 3
Day 4
Day 5

f.ds Mafia Ruleset (changes in red)

The Golden Rule:

Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun!  Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.

Please read The Civility Pledge before signing up for this game.  If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play here.

Excessive personal attacks or uncivil behavior may be dealt with by modifiers or modkills.

General Gameplay and Etiquette:

1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind.  Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. Personal communication outside of the forum postings is NOT ALLOWED unless your Role PM specifically allows it.
3. All mod communication after the initial role PMs is to be conducted in your Personal/Mafia QT. If you have a role with a Night action, your choices are due by the posted deadline (generally 48 hours from Night start during the first few Nights; later Nights may have shorter deadlines).  If we do not receive your choice by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions.  In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used.  Generally, one team member may submit the Night Actions for all team members.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage), unless your Role PM specifically allows it.
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit “No Action" to let the Mods know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase, unless your Action is compulsory.
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 24 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.

Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:

1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline. If no player has been lynched by the deadline, no lynch occurs.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate.  Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName.  Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax!  Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
5. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
6. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch. If no lynch occurs, the Mafia must attempt a kill on the following night.
7. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post in the game or in shared Quicktopics, except for twilight.  This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post.  The dead in this game are silent, but will be invited to the Spectator Quicktopic.
8. Do not edit or delete posts.  We don't want some players having more information than others.  If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post.
9. Deadlines: This game will have 10-day Days and 48-hour Nights.

Miscellaneous/Mechanics:

1. Bold, blue text is reserved for the Mod.  No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please inform the Mods privately.  Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread. This includes question about rules etc. These will only be addressed if asked in your Personal or Mafia QT. If I deem it appropriate, I will make an in-thread announcement to clarify.
3. The Mods may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently.  Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed.  These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game. All mod vote counts are by definition correct. A lynch will either go through or not go through based entirely on the last mod vote count and votes since. We will of course strive for accuracy. If you spot an error, please point it out. I will acknowledge the error in the post in question and also post a new vote count.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mods so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued automatically on request after 24 hours of no activity.  A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement.  A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.
6. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill and/or further penalties to the team of the player in question.
7. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread.  Treat this game as a commitment.  Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.

Helpful Links:

--Main Wiki Page

--Newbie Guide

--Frequently Asked Questions

--Commonly Used Abbreviations

--Mafia Theory

TO CLARIFY, I AM NOT A MODERATOR OF F.DS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.  IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME, I AM MODERATING THAT THE RULES ARE FOLLOWED AND HIDDEN ACTIONS ARE COMPLETED PROPERLY.

GAME-SPECIFIC INFORMATION LISTED IN NEXT POST

[Jimmmmm]

Game-Specific Rules
(some changes from RMM9 in red)

Personal QTs
Each of you has been assigned a personal QT that will be used for all private communication with the Mods. These are separate from the shared Mafia QT, and will be unlocked at all times.

All private actions are to be submitted by QT. Please do not PM me; if you do, I will respond by QT if at all. I will be checking the QTs whenever I check the forums, and all players should do the same.


Combat
Each Day the Town will be confronted with a new Monster. In order to fight these Monsters, each player will begin the game with some number of dice in their supply. By default, dice in the game are normal, fair, 12-sided dice.

The Monsters are sent by the Mafia, and as such, Mafia-aligned players will have some level of control over them.

Each Monster will have different rules for how to defeat it, which will include a target that must be reached.

Once per Day, each player may roll any number of dice from their supply, by typing Roll: x in your personal QT, where x is the number of dice you wish to roll. You cannot roll more dice than you have.

If you roll 1 die, you may either play it by typing Play: y in the game thread, where y is the result of the roll, or discard it by doing nothing. Played dice will count towards the target as specified by the particular Monster. Unless stated otherwise by the rules for a particular monster, playing a die contributes an amount equal to the result of the roll. Discarded dice are gone from the game.

If you roll 2 or more dice, you must play one. Failure to do so will have one randomly selected to be played for you.

If you roll 2 or more dice, you may also choose to store a die that you did not play, by posting Store: y in your personal QT. When you store a die, you immediately discard a die from your supply if possible.

Instead of rolling dice from your supply, you may play a stored die, simply by posting Play: y in the game thread, where y is a value of die in your store. If you do so, a die will be discarded from your supply if possible.

There may also be other uses for your stored dice.

Updates of the number of dice in your supply and the values of stored dice will be provided as necessary in your personal QT.

After rolling, if you wish to or must play a die, you must do so as soon as possible. Once you have seen the result, please play the die you wish to play in your very next post. You may not disclose the result of your roll prior to playing the die. Failing to adhere to this may result in the die being discarded, or a random die being played, at my discretion.

It is imperative that you do not, either deliberately or accidentally, play a value that you have not rolled. Doing so accidentally may result in a penalty for yourself and/or your team, at my discretion. Repeated offenses, or any attempt to game the system by attempting to play a value you have not rolled will be dealt with severely.

The only part of the combat process which takes place in the main thread is the playing part. All rolling, storing and discarding takes place in your personal QTs.

The Mods will update the current total score of the played dice after each action which alters the current total. If multiple changes to the total occur between updates, all changes will be listed.

When a player is lynched or the deadline is reached, any players who have rolled 2 or more dice but not played any will have a random die of theirs played. If the Total is then equal to or greater than the Target, the monster is defeated. Either way, any dice that were played are discarded.


Rewards and Threats
When a Monster is defeated, the Town will be rewarded. Failing to defeat a Monster will result in a penalty for the Town.

There is a pool of rewards and a pool of threats available. At the end of the Day, depending on the result of the combat, a reward or threat will be randomly selected. The name of the reward or threat will be announced. Further details may or may not be announced.

Rewards are designed to be good for Town and/or bad for Mafia. Threats are designed to be bad for Town and/or good for Mafia.


Roles
At least one player has a role related to the dice and/or fighting the Monsters. At least one player does not. If you do not have a specific role, do not fear! There is still plenty for you to do. There may or may not be traditional Mafia roles.

Unless stated otherwise, all roles and parts of roles are assigned completely randomly and independently of alignment.


Delays
Any Day actions which are submitted via QT may be submitted with a delay. To do so, in the same post as the submission, you may post Delay for x time. For example, Delay for 1 hour. The action will then be considered to have been submitted after the given delay. In order to avoid confusion based on different timezones, do not give a specific time for the action to be submitted, rather the amount of time to delay between the post and the action submission. I will make a small amount of effort to be online at times when I know an action is due to be submitted. Each action submitted during the Day will be resolved completely in the order they were submitted, taking delay into account. In the extremely unlikely event of identical times, the actions which were submitted simultaneously will be resolved in a random order.

Delayed actions may be changed or cancelled at any time prior to the action submission.


Evening
48 hours prior to deadline, the game enters the Evening phase. Unless specifically stated otherwise, no Day actions can be submitted during the Evening. Rolling dice cannot be done during the Evening, however playing and storing dice can.


Impossible Investigations
It is never possible for a Town-aligned player to make any of the following investigations:

• Rolecopping.
• Tracking or Watching.
• Investigating the number of dice in another player’s supply, another player’s stored dice, or what another player has discarded.

Flavour
The flavour in the game is unimportant for actually playing the game. You can safely ignore all italicised text from me.

Alignments
Exactly three players are Mafia-aligned. Everyone else is Town-aligned.

Miscellaneous
"xdy", where x and y are numbers, means "the sum of the results of rolling a normal y-sided die x times". So, for example, 1d6 means a random number from 1 to 6, it does NOT mean a 6-sided die.

If you are unable to immediately play a die when necessary because you have access to your QT but not the game thread, instead play your die in your QT, and I will announce that you have played it as if you played it in the game thread.


Summary
Each Day, the Town works together to fight a Monster. Each player has dice, and, once per Day, may roll any number of their dice, and then play one, which will score a certain amount depending on the Monster. At the end of the Day, if the total score of the played dice is at least a given target, the Town gets a reward. Otherwise, the Town gets a penalty.

[Jimmmmm]

MONSTERS

WITCH - When a die is played (besides the first die played for the Day), it only counts if it has opposite parity (odd/even) to the previous die played.

DRAGON - When a die of value n is played, it only counts if a die of value n-1 has previously been played.

OGRE - Only 1s and 2s count.

GOBLIN - Even numbers count as negative.

TROLL - The value of all played dice is squared.

ORC - Only the first instance of each value played counts.


The attacking Monster, as well as the target to beat it, will be announced at the beginning of each Day.



VT PM

flavour

Welcome Player to Dice Mafia. You have no special role.

You are Town-aligned. You win when the Mafia has been eliminated and at least one Town player is alive.

Personal QT: link

Mafia Win Condition

You are Mafia-aligned, along with your partners, Player1 and Player2. Each Night, in addition to any other actions you may have, one of you and your partners may submit your factional kill in your Mafia QT. You win when the Mafia controls half the Town, or nothing can stop this from occurring, and at least one Mafia is alive.

[Witherweaver]

/in

[Robz888]

What is "dice" mafia? This is not a regular numeral game?

[ashersky]

What is "dice" mafia? This is not a regular numeral game?

RMM16.

[mail-mi]

/confirmin

[yuma]

horray!

[mail-mi]

PLEASE DON'T START THIS TIL AFTER JUNE 16th PLEASE!

[Jimmmmm]

What is "dice" mafia?

Mafia... with dice!

[XerxesPraelor]

Confirm.

[chairs]

confiming my /in but please don't start it for a few days at least

[XerxesPraelor]

If you can wait to start this until X-men ends, that would be a good amount of time to leave.

[Beyond Awesome]

/in

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'll /in

but someone's going to have to teach me how to roll dice.

[Jimmmmm]

I'll /in

but someone's going to have to teach me how to roll dice.

Full rules for that will be posted well before the game starts.

[liopoil]

/in assuming the game doesn't start at least until this friday forum time. I'm going to have more time this summer so I'm gonna play a mafia game again. It's been 3 months or something . I remember being very intrigued with the first dice game, so I'll play this one.

[mail-mi]

PLEASE DON'T START THIS TIL AFTER JUNE 16th PLEASE!

[Jimmmmm]

PLEASE DON'T START THIS TIL AFTER JUNE 16th PLEASE!

Noted.

[jotheonah]

welp I need a new game. /in

[sudgy]

PLEASE DON'T START THIS TIL AFTER JUNE 16th PLEASE!

That doesn't have anything to do with that being the date of my Eagle Court of Honor, does it?

[faust]

Is this going to start soon? If it's not, I may have to /out.

[XerxesPraelor]

I think it's starting on the 17th (that's what I hope, at least).

[chairs]

I NEED DIS

[faust]

I NEED DISCE

FTFY

[chairs]

[Hydrad]

If this is still open I'd be willing to join. I have no idea what it is or anything though

[Jimmmmm]

If people are happy for this to start while Innovation is still going, it should start not long after the 16th.

[BoxOfDOG]

Oh good. I still have time xD

I was rifling through my email, like, "I DIDN'T GET A MESSAGE ABOUT PLAYING, DID I!? OH GOODNESS"
Thankfully that's not that case..
Whew!

[pingpongsam]

/in

[Witherweaver]

Dice, dice, baby.

[EFHW]

/out, sorry

[Ichimaru Gin]

Dice, dice, baby.

I used to like that song before I listened to it a hundred times.

[liopoil]

so, Innovation is over, it's after June 16th, there are 15 players signed up... send me my PM?

[Voltaire]

/tag, even though I'm already /in!

[Jimmmmm]

Sorry for the delay! I'll try to have the rules posted tonight or tomorrow and PMs sent tomorrow.

[jotheonah]

I have to /out.

I'm on vacation all next week and I don't want to have to worry about checking in.

[BoxOfDOG]

Well poop. That's two people down. How long is the delay now, or we just gonna start without them?

[Jimmmmm]

Well poop. That's two people down. How long is the delay now, or we just gonna start without them?

Hmm well odd numbers are nice so it'd be good to get back to 15. The delay is my fault though, due to IRL busyness.

[Jimmmmm]

Sorry everyone. I've worked a lot more this week than I expected to. PMs WILL go out in the next 24 hours.

Signups are still open if anyone else wants to join.

[Jimmmmm]

Thread locked, signups closed.

PMs going out very shortly.

[Jimmmmm]

PMs sent!

Please confirm receipt of your PM and that you're still playing in your Personal QT.

[Jimmmmm]

Night 0 will last for just over 48 hours.

Day 1 is due to begin on June 22 at 4pm forum time.

[Jimmmmm]

Apologies to all for the stuttered start. I'm in the midst of one of the most hectic fortnights work-wise I've had for quite a while, and it's also been exam time.

The third post has some information on the Monsters.

In order to avoid starting on the weekend, I've decided to delay the start of Day 1 by 24 hours.

Day 1 is due to begin on Monday June 23 at 4pm forum time.

[Jimmmmm]

Oh, also, Each player may choose a weapon found in Medieval times or earlier. This will be used for flavour only, and will have no effect on the game.

[Jimmmmm]

A couple of additions to the rules: you cannot roll dice during the Evening, but you can play and store dice.

If you have access to your QT but not the game thread when you must play a die, you can play it in your QT.

A sample PM has been provided.

[Jimmmmm]

EFHW shuffled nervously as the small crowd of people assembled before her at the outskirts of the Town. She had been working tirelessly for the past year to try to free the Town from the grip of the Mafia, and she knew that finding the Loyalty Stone was the best chance they'd had at doing that. What she didn't know was whether the warriors in front of her were the right people for such an important quest.

EFHW cleared her throat. "I'd like to thank you all for coming today. You have each been chosen for a reason. Some of you have skills which could prove very important. Others we simply believe to be excellent fighters. Believe me when I say that this quest is of utmost importance. You must all remain - "

With the swing of a giant club, EFHW was squashed flat. And there behind her stood an enormous Troll!

ashersky, chairs, yuma, mail-mi, BoxOfDog, Voltaire, faust, XerxesPraelor, Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome, Ichimaru Gin, liopoil, Hydrad and pingpongsam stared in shock. How did the beast know where to find them?

Quickly Witherweaver pulled something out of his pocket and held it near EFHW's flattened corpse. It glowed a brilliant green.

The Troll stamped its feet and roared at the fourteen people in front of it. The warriors took hold of their weapons and faced it.



Witherweaver has the LoyaltyLegacy Stone.

A Troll has attacked!

Rule: The value of all played dice is squared.



Vote Count 1.0

not voting (14): ashersky, chairs, yuma, mail-mi, BoxOfDog, Voltaire, faust, XerxesPraelor, Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome, Ichimaru Gin, liopoil, Hydrad, pingpongsam

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 1 at 4pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 3 at 4pm forum time.

Target: 1000
Score: 0


Day 1 has begun!

Thread unlocked.

[ashersky]

play: 9

[Witherweaver]

So was there another game like this before?  With the combat mechanic, I mean?  Is there anything that should be gained from that?

[Jimmmmm]

ashersky plays a 9.
Score: 81

[Beyond Awesome]

This is interesting. So, it is kind of like D&D meets Mafia.

[Beyond Awesome]

Hmm...So, I am quite curious about this Loyalty Stone

[mail-mi]

So WW is there anything special about having the loyalty stone?

[Witherweaver]

I thought that Jimmm had written up something about stones in the description somewhere, but now I can't find it.  Did I imagine that?

[liopoil]

So WW is there anything special about having the loyalty stone?

Maybe we shouldn't ask him about it? He already made a post without mentioning anything about it, so I'm not sure he has anything helpful to tell us. Unless it means he's IC of course, which would make sense with loyalty being announced at the start of D1 and all.

[Beyond Awesome]

Play: 12

Vote: BoxofDog I honestly have no clue who this is.

[chairs]

So was there another game like this before?  With the combat mechanic, I mean?  Is there anything that should be gained from that?

There was an RMM game for this that you might review.  One thing to gain from it is that Mafia (I was Mafia that game) have to balance "look Towny" with their rolls, with "don't defeat the monster" (since winning monsters hurt Town/help Mafia).

[liopoil]

I thought that Jimmm had written up something about stones in the description somewhere, but now I can't find it.  Did I imagine that?

I think you did. I ctrl+F'ed "stone" and got nothing.

[Witherweaver]

So was there another game like this before?  With the combat mechanic, I mean?  Is there anything that should be gained from that?

There was an RMM game for this that you might review.  One thing to gain from it is that Mafia (I was Mafia that game) have to balance "look Towny" with their rolls, with "don't defeat the monster" (since winning monsters hurt Town/help Mafia).

Can they lie about their roll?  I think the rules said that isn't allowed.  So in that case would you roll and store multiple rolls and give one that doesn't help too much (but makes it appear like you're trying to)?

[Jimmmmm]

Sorry.

Witherweaver has the Legacy Stone, not the Loyalty Stone.

[Jimmmmm]

Beyond Awesome plays a 12.
Score: 225

[chairs]

So was there another game like this before?  With the combat mechanic, I mean?  Is there anything that should be gained from that?

There was an RMM game for this that you might review.  One thing to gain from it is that Mafia (I was Mafia that game) have to balance "look Towny" with their rolls, with "don't defeat the monster" (since winning monsters hurt Town/help Mafia).

Can they lie about their roll?  I think the rules said that isn't allowed.  So in that case would you roll and store multiple rolls and give one that doesn't help too much (but makes it appear like you're trying to)?

Exactly.  For example, as Mafia I rolled a 5 and a 2 and tried to play off the two as a single-die roll.

I thought that Jimmm had written up something about stones in the description somewhere, but now I can't find it.  Did I imagine that?

I think you did. I ctrl+F'ed "stone" and got nothing.

Check your role PMs, everybody.  Mine mentions Legacy and Loyalty stones...

[Witherweaver]

No those sound way too familiar... there was something about Legacy Stone and Loyalty Stone before.  Maybe some mechanics were changed and Jimmm removed it?


PPE: Oh, it's in my PM, duh.

[mail-mi]

So was there another game like this before?  With the combat mechanic, I mean?  Is there anything that should be gained from that?

There was an RMM game for this that you might review.  One thing to gain from it is that Mafia (I was Mafia that game) have to balance "look Towny" with their rolls, with "don't defeat the monster" (since winning monsters hurt Town/help Mafia).

Can they lie about their roll?  I think the rules said that isn't allowed.  So in that case would you roll and store multiple rolls and give one that doesn't help too much (but makes it appear like you're trying to)?

Exactly.  For example, as Mafia I rolled a 5 and a 2 and tried to play off the two as a single-die roll.

I thought that Jimmm had written up something about stones in the description somewhere, but now I can't find it.  Did I imagine that?

I think you did. I ctrl+F'ed "stone" and got nothing.

Check your role PMs, everybody.  Mine mentions Legacy and Loyalty stones...

Yeah, so did mine.

[liopoil]

So was there another game like this before?  With the combat mechanic, I mean?  Is there anything that should be gained from that?

There was an RMM game for this that you might review.  One thing to gain from it is that Mafia (I was Mafia that game) have to balance "look Towny" with their rolls, with "don't defeat the monster" (since winning monsters hurt Town/help Mafia).

Can they lie about their roll?  I think the rules said that isn't allowed.  So in that case would you roll and store multiple rolls and give one that doesn't help too much (but makes it appear like you're trying to)?

Exactly.  For example, as Mafia I rolled a 5 and a 2 and tried to play off the two as a single-die roll.

I thought that Jimmm had written up something about stones in the description somewhere, but now I can't find it.  Did I imagine that?

I think you did. I ctrl+F'ed "stone" and got nothing.

Check your role PMs, everybody.  Mine mentions Legacy and Loyalty stones...

Yeah, so did mine.

uhh, chairs, IIRC, you played a one

what? I'm expected to read the flavor?!? but Jimmmmm said the flavor is meaningless!

[Witherweaver]

Okay so, I think I can just admit this.  My QT says that I hold the Legacy Stone and it has no effect on the game. 

The thing in the PM is all italic, so all flavor, so it shouldn't matter.  I'm guessing the Legacy Stone is just flavor.

The only thing that makes me wonder is that the actual announcement that I have the stone in the first message of the game starting was in regular bold text.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay so, I think I can just admit this.  My QT says that I hold the Legacy Stone and it has no effect on the game. 

The thing in the PM is all italic, so all flavor, so it shouldn't matter.  I'm guessing the Legacy Stone is just flavor.

The only thing that makes me wonder is that the actual announcement that I have the stone in the first message of the game starting was in regular bold text.

Maybe it does something later on, or grant its holder special abilities later on. I have no clue though.

[liopoil]

Based on the flavor text, the legacy stone gives us our flips, and the loyalty stone finds us some scums. Neither actually matter in terms of playing the game though.

[chairs]

So was there another game like this before?  With the combat mechanic, I mean?  Is there anything that should be gained from that?

There was an RMM game for this that you might review.  One thing to gain from it is that Mafia (I was Mafia that game) have to balance "look Towny" with their rolls, with "don't defeat the monster" (since winning monsters hurt Town/help Mafia).

Can they lie about their roll?  I think the rules said that isn't allowed.  So in that case would you roll and store multiple rolls and give one that doesn't help too much (but makes it appear like you're trying to)?

Exactly.  For example, as Mafia I rolled a 5 and a 2 and tried to play off the two as a single-die roll.

I thought that Jimmm had written up something about stones in the description somewhere, but now I can't find it.  Did I imagine that?

I think you did. I ctrl+F'ed "stone" and got nothing.

Check your role PMs, everybody.  Mine mentions Legacy and Loyalty stones...

Yeah, so did mine.

uhh, chairs, IIRC, you played a one

what? I'm expected to read the flavor?!? but Jimmmmm said the flavor is meaningless!

One, two, the point was that it was a bad roll that I was trying to play off as bad luck.

[liopoil]

Play: 8

[Jimmmmm]

liopoil plays an 8.
Score: 289

[Ichimaru Gin]

play: 6

[Jimmmmm]

Ichimaru Gin plays a 6.
Score: 325

[yuma]

Sorry guys. I haven't read the rules. I will catch up once I get to my destination and will put forward a role soon. I kinda get the mechanics cause I spectated the first game but don't want to do anything stupid by trying to do something before I do understand it.

[Witherweaver]

Are we supposed to get the results of the roll in the QT?  Like we <b>Roll:</b> and Jimm does it and tells us the result? 

[Beyond Awesome]

Are we supposed to get the results of the roll in the QT?  Like we <b>Roll:</b> and Jimm does it and tells us the result?

Yes

[ashersky]

Did we get a total health for the Troll?

[ashersky]

Side note: BA, awesome website.  I think we chatted somewhere before on here, maybe about that Kickstarter movie?  My daughter has autism.

[liopoil]

Did we get a total health for the Troll?

1000. We're well on pace to meeting that goal

[Voltaire]

Hello all! I highly doubt the stones don't matter simply based on the way they're written so far. I'll have to double check, but even with the "ignore the flavor" post there's just no way.

Not quite sure how the small changes from the first game will affect anything, if at all.

vote: Hydrad for never having played with me before.

[Witherweaver]

Play: 8

I also bonk the troll on the top of the head with my Legacy Stone.

[ashersky]

vote: everyone who hasn't rolled dice and played a high number to kill the troll

[pingpongsam]

I just got the opportunity to check in. As I understand it I can't roll right now anyway.

Vote: yuma

[pingpongsam]

Oh yeah, I got an anti-town power.

[Witherweaver]

Oh yeah, I got an anti-town power.

?

[Witherweaver]

I'm not ready to start casting suspicion on people for not rolling yet.  Especially new players, or really anyone who hasn't played this setup yet.

It's not clear to me how many dice I should roll, if I should start saving early or wait, etc.

[pingpongsam]

Oh yeah, I got an anti-town power.

?

Yeah, basically I am VT unless I have near certainty of scum at which point it will be largely too late to use the power. If I use my power on a townie it would be detrimental.

[ashersky]

Oh yeah, I got an anti-town power.

?

Yeah, basically I am VT unless I have near certainty of scum at which point it will be largely too late to use the power. If I use my power on a townie it would be detrimental.

Would full claim get you killed?

[Witherweaver]

Oh yeah, I got an anti-town power.

?

Yeah, basically I am VT unless I have near certainty of scum at which point it will be largely too late to use the power. If I use my power on a townie it would be detrimental.

I see.

[liopoil]

...why are you telling us this?

[pingpongsam]

...why are you telling us this?

Why not?

Should we discuss the weather or the things we know. My power is a dilemma for scum. Obviously there are better targets if I am not using it but apparently it is useful against scum so I should be a late game target. If I were to reveal the actual power it would be entirely too informative to scum.

[ashersky]

PPS and I were scum together in the last dice game.

I firmly believe he would claim his anti-town town power as town, and also that he would claim his anti-town scum power, too.

I think if full-claiming neuters PPS, but would leave him alive due to scum's hope that he might use the power on town, it's best for the claim and we can decide if we want to just treat him as town.

I think if full-claiming just means PPS gets killed on N1 for absolute sure, he should full-claim and he plays D1 one an IC.

[pingpongsam]

I don't see why a full claim would guarantee immediate death. I note your options to me are full claim or, ah, full claim. Scum would be so curious to know what power I do have.

[liopoil]

I mean, what you've revealed so far probably doesn't help scum much, and I guess it could help some town PRs? Anyway, I think the best way for us to get out of RVS (Vote: Robz888 by the way) is to wait for everyone to roll. Then a) we have something to look at and b) we have one less thing to worry about and can focus on lynching mafia.

[liopoil]

Ash - and what happens if his claim would make him get killed on N1 (and so we treat him as IC), but then scum decide not to kill him? (this is if he is town). I don't see how his claim can benefit us, unless his role is protown in some way. It seems that his role isn't protown until later in the game, so I don't see think he should claim.

[pingpongsam]

I just discovered that someone swiped half my supply of dice last night.

[ashersky]

I don't see why a full claim would guarantee immediate death. I note your options to me are full claim or, ah, full claim. Scum would be so curious to know what power I do have.

Well, the other option (not claiming at all) is unavailable, and the other other option (just leave it alone) is lame, as you've decided to start the convo.

So, from my perspective, I want PPS, the IC.  How do I get that?  A claim that is strongly believeable to be town-aligned.  The mafia killing you would help confirm it all later in the game.

So yeah, that's best.

[ashersky]

I just discovered that someone swiped half my supply of dice last night.

Points to you being town, with scum stealing your dice.

Or you (or your partner) has the dice-stealing scum power and you are preemptively claiming to have been robbed when you actually didn't use the power for yet even more cred.

[pingpongsam]

My PR name is The Swindler. Seems we have a thief to form a coalition of grifters.

[pingpongsam]

I just discovered that someone swiped half my supply of dice last night.

Points to you being town, with scum stealing your dice.

Or you (or your partner) has the dice-stealing scum power and you are preemptively claiming to have been robbed when you actually didn't use the power for yet even more cred.

Well, if anyone had investigative power last night and witnessed me getting targeted then I would be willing to lynch that person.

[pingpongsam]

I just discovered that someone swiped half my supply of dice last night.

Points to you being town, with scum stealing your dice.

Or you (or your partner) has the dice-stealing scum power and you are preemptively claiming to have been robbed when you actually didn't use the power for yet even more cred.

Well, if anyone had investigative power last night and witnessed me getting targeted then I would be willing to lynch that person.

The person who targeted me not the investigator, to be clear.

[mail-mi]

I just discovered that someone swiped half my supply of dice last night.

Points to you being town, with scum stealing your dice.

Or you (or your partner) has the dice-stealing scum power and you are preemptively claiming to have been robbed when you actually didn't use the power for yet even more cred.

Well, if anyone had investigative power last night and witnessed me getting targeted then I would be willing to lynch that person.

Nope, no trackers or watchers. Or at least, town-aligned ones.

[pingpongsam]

I just discovered that someone swiped half my supply of dice last night.

Points to you being town, with scum stealing your dice.

Or you (or your partner) has the dice-stealing scum power and you are preemptively claiming to have been robbed when you actually didn't use the power for yet even more cred.

Well, if anyone had investigative power last night and witnessed me getting targeted then I would be willing to lynch that person.

Nope, no trackers or watchers. Or at least, town-aligned ones.

Right, then I would be willing to lynch the investigator.

[Witherweaver]

I'm not ready to start casting suspicion on people for not rolling yet.  Especially new players, or really anyone who hasn't played this setup yet.

It's not clear to me how many dice I should roll, if I should start saving early or wait, etc.

Bump.  Can anyone give a quick brief about how we should use our rolls?  Is it better to roll fewer dice early because there will be less players to kill the later monsters?

[Beyond Awesome]

So, what are you saying? So, half your dice are stolen and so you choose not to roll? Is that even an option? I mean, I guess that was what I would do if I had the choice. And, I guess that is why you are sort of claiming right now because you don't want to look suspicious when you don't roll.

PPE

[Beyond Awesome]

I'm not ready to start casting suspicion on people for not rolling yet.  Especially new players, or really anyone who hasn't played this setup yet.

It's not clear to me how many dice I should roll, if I should start saving early or wait, etc.

Bump.  Can anyone give a quick brief about how we should use our rolls?  Is it better to roll fewer dice early because there will be less players to kill the later monsters?

I rolled two dice. But, I have no idea what a good amount to roll is. I think 2 is fine, but what do I know.

[pingpongsam]

So, what are you saying? So, half your dice are stolen and so you choose not to roll? Is that even an option? I mean, I guess that was what I would do if I had the choice. And, I guess that is why you are sort of claiming right now because you don't want to look suspicious when you don't roll.

PPE

Play: 8

[pingpongsam]

I rolled well ahead of realizing my supply was depleted. Nice theory though, maybe you can leverage it for my mislynch when I am actually out of dice while you do whatever you please with the ones you stole?

[pingpongsam]

I'm not ready to start casting suspicion on people for not rolling yet.  Especially new players, or really anyone who hasn't played this setup yet.

It's not clear to me how many dice I should roll, if I should start saving early or wait, etc.

Bump.  Can anyone give a quick brief about how we should use our rolls?  Is it better to roll fewer dice early because there will be less players to kill the later monsters?

I rolled two dice. But, I have no idea what a good amount to roll is. I think 2 is fine, but what do I know.

Depends on how many supply dice you have. Claiming your number rolled is a pure WIFOM for everyone.

[Beyond Awesome]

I rolled well ahead of realizing my supply was depleted. Nice theory though, maybe you can leverage it for my mislynch when I am actually out of dice while you do whatever you please with the ones you stole?

I was just asking if you could choose not to roll this turn.

[Beyond Awesome]

Side note: BA, awesome website.  I think we chatted somewhere before on here, maybe about that Kickstarter movie?  My daughter has autism.

I do think you sent me a PM a while back. Yah, the movie is in post-production. They actually cut all my scenes out though.

[pingpongsam]

Bah, humanizers. I am off to bed.

[ashersky]

Absolutely roll more than 2 if you are town.  Rolling few or no dice is a scum move.  Roller later in the day is also a scum move.

We must defeat the Troll.  If you don't roll enough dice to get a high number, you aren't helping, and you are hurting.  That's scummy.  See chairs.

If you wait until lots of others have rolled, you get to see if you squeak by with a crap roll and still defeat the monster, storing a better role for your own use.  Also scummy.

Roll 3+ dice.

[mail-mi]

Absolutely roll more than 2 if you are town.  Rolling few or no dice is a scum move.  Roller later in the day is also a scum move.

We must defeat the Troll.  If you don't roll enough dice to get a high number, you aren't helping, and you are hurting.  That's scummy.  See chairs.

If you wait until lots of others have rolled, you get to see if you squeak by with a crap roll and still defeat the monster, storing a better role for your own use.  Also scummy.

Roll 3+ dice.

I am not rolling today. Because of my power, its better that I don't. However, if we need more to defeat the troll layer in the day, then I'll probably roll.

[ashersky]

vote: mail-mi

[XerxesPraelor]

Okay, tell me if you know of a particular role. I've thought about it for the long night and trust me, this is definitely worth it. If you know about but are not the role that I'm thinking about, say so.

[XerxesPraelor]

I realize that sounds a little commanding, but I'm pretty sure I can make this a version on mass claim without the problems of revealing your PRs. Only say you know about it if you think you know what I'm talking about.

[XerxesPraelor]

vote: mailmi

[faust]

Woah, woah, woah.

Why are you all so obsessed with playing your dice? There's still time.

Vote: Ichimaru Gin for the low roll, and having nothing else to say.

So strange. ashersky, who is generally known for having plans, just opens this game by stumbling into playing dice. Lots of people are new to the mechanic, ashersky! Don't you think it would have been beneficial to discuss strategy for dice rolls before just starting with it? Seems like a good way for scum to force newer players to act without thinking things through, so slight scum read on ashersky.

[faust]

Okay, tell me if you know of a particular role. I've thought about it for the long night and trust me, this is definitely worth it. If you know about but are not the role that I'm thinking about, say so.

This seems genuine. I trust that you know what you're doing.

I know about the role you seem to be talking about.

[faust]

Absolutely roll more than 2 if you are town.  Rolling few or no dice is a scum move.  Roller later in the day is also a scum move.

We must defeat the Troll.  If you don't roll enough dice to get a high number, you aren't helping, and you are hurting.  That's scummy.  See chairs.

If you wait until lots of others have rolled, you get to see if you squeak by with a crap roll and still defeat the monster, storing a better role for your own use.  Also scummy.

Roll 3+ dice.

I am not rolling today. Because of my power, its better that I don't. However, if we need more to defeat the troll layer in the day, then I'll probably roll.

This was unnecessary. But I'm not sure I get the votes for mail-mi following this.

[Jimmmmm]

Witherweaver plays an 8.
Score: 389

pingpongsam plays an 8.
Score: 453


Vote Count 1.1

BoxOfDog (1): Beyond Awesome
Hydrad (1): Voltaire
yuma (1): pingpongsam
mail-mi (2): ashersky, XerxesPraelor
Ichimaru Gin (1): faust

not voting (eight): chairs, yuma, mail-mi, BoxOfDog, Witherweaver, Ichimaru Gin, liopoil, Hydrad

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 1 at 4pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 3 at 4pm forum time.

Target: 1000
Score: 453

[ashersky]

So strange. ashersky, who is generally known for having plans, just opens this game by stumbling into playing dice. Lots of people are new to the mechanic, ashersky! Don't you think it would have been beneficial to discuss strategy for dice rolls before just starting with it? Seems like a good way for scum to force newer players to act without thinking things through, so slight scum read on ashersky.

I rolled immediately as everyone should.  We have a measley 389 to the 1000 health of the Troll.  Scum really wants the monster to win.  This was the case in the first version, too.

This is a closed setup, and I preferred no setup discussion/claiming on D1.  But of course, this is f.ds mafia.  We've seen this a million times, and yet it keeps happening.  Heck, I think mods can easily design against the meta, and do.

Rolling and playing our dice is something we have a choice to do, and that we should do, and so that's a clear sign of scumminess one way or the other.  We could do other regular game things, like RVS, or discuss the rolls.  And then lead to a D1 lynch that gives us information.

But no, someone will need to foist a mass claim/partial claim/planned claim plan thing and we'll all follow it or not, and then we'll get much less out of our lynch in the end.

So that's cool.

[faust]

Dice roll statistics:

Target to reach: 1000
Average per player needed: 71.4 or roll of 9 or higher.

Probability of rolling 9 or higher
...with 1 die: 4/12 = 33.3%
...with 2 dice: 4/12+8/12*4/12 = 55.6%
...with 3 dice: 4/12+8/12*4/12+(8/12)²*4/12 = 70.4%
...with 4 dice: 4/12+8/12*4/12+(8/12)²*4/12+(8/12)³*4/12 = 80.2%

Plays so far:

ahersky: 9 (average)
Beyond Awesome: 12 (very good)
liopoil: 8 (below average)
Ichimaru Gin: 6 (bad)
Witherweaver: 8 (below average)
pingpongsam: 8 (below average)

Remaining players: 8
Remaining target: 611
Needed average: 76.4 or roll of 9 or higher

[faust]

I rolled well ahead of realizing my supply was depleted. Nice theory though, maybe you can leverage it for my mislynch when I am actually out of dice while you do whatever you please with the ones you stole?

Was your supply depleted before or after your claim?

[Jimmmmm]

Correction: I missed one play. Score is now 453, not 389.

[faust]

So strange. ashersky, who is generally known for having plans, just opens this game by stumbling into playing dice. Lots of people are new to the mechanic, ashersky! Don't you think it would have been beneficial to discuss strategy for dice rolls before just starting with it? Seems like a good way for scum to force newer players to act without thinking things through, so slight scum read on ashersky.

I rolled immediately as everyone should.  We have a measley 389 to the 1000 health of the Troll.  Scum really wants the monster to win.  This was the case in the first version, too.

This is a closed setup, and I preferred no setup discussion/claiming on D1.  But of course, this is f.ds mafia.  We've seen this a million times, and yet it keeps happening.  Heck, I think mods can easily design against the meta, and do.

Rolling and playing our dice is something we have a choice to do, and that we should do, and so that's a clear sign of scumminess one way or the other.  We could do other regular game things, like RVS, or discuss the rolls.  And then lead to a D1 lynch that gives us information.

But no, someone will need to foist a mass claim/partial claim/planned claim plan thing and we'll all follow it or not, and then we'll get much less out of our lynch in the end.

So that's cool.

vote: ashersky for not answering my question.

[faust]

Play: 10

[Jimmmmm]

faust plays a 10.
Score: 553

[ashersky]

So strange. ashersky, who is generally known for having plans, just opens this game by stumbling into playing dice. Lots of people are new to the mechanic, ashersky! Don't you think it would have been beneficial to discuss strategy for dice rolls before just starting with it? Seems like a good way for scum to force newer players to act without thinking things through, so slight scum read on ashersky.

I rolled immediately as everyone should.  We have a measley 389 to the 1000 health of the Troll.  Scum really wants the monster to win.  This was the case in the first version, too.

This is a closed setup, and I preferred no setup discussion/claiming on D1.  But of course, this is f.ds mafia.  We've seen this a million times, and yet it keeps happening.  Heck, I think mods can easily design against the meta, and do.

Rolling and playing our dice is something we have a choice to do, and that we should do, and so that's a clear sign of scumminess one way or the other.  We could do other regular game things, like RVS, or discuss the rolls.  And then lead to a D1 lynch that gives us information.

But no, someone will need to foist a mass claim/partial claim/planned claim plan thing and we'll all follow it or not, and then we'll get much less out of our lynch in the end.

So that's cool.

vote: ashersky for not answering my question.

If you couldn't see that the answer to your question was "no" from my long answer, then you are being purposefully combative.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Sorry. I know see that 6 wasn't a very good roll. I rolled only a couple dice, but 6 was the highest I had, and I had to play one.
So faust's assumption seems to not be taking a lot of things into account.

[faust]

You have talked a lot about claiming stuff and little about why discussing dice rolls before we roll them is bad.

[faust]

Sorry. I know see that 6 wasn't a very good roll. I rolled only a couple dice, but 6 was the highest I had, and I had to play one.
So faust's assumption seems to not be taking a lot of things into account.

What is my assumption? What do I not take into account?

[faust]

You have talked a lot about claiming stuff and little about why discussing dice rolls before we roll them is bad.

This is directed to ashersky.

[XerxesPraelor]

play: 11

[ashersky]

You have talked a lot about claiming stuff and little about why discussing dice rolls before we roll them is bad.

This is directed to ashersky.

Sigh.

Talking about it allows scum to try and affect how town uses their one opportunity to fight the monster.  As scum, I did theory-steering to good effect.

I like seeing some reactions to me opening the game with a play.  I think you are having a towny reaction, for example.

[XerxesPraelor]

I think I know what alignment someone has based on their role, but I probably shouldn't trust my guess that much.

I'm getting towny vibes from both Faust and ash.
vote: IG

[faust]

You have talked a lot about claiming stuff and little about why discussing dice rolls before we roll them is bad.

This is directed to ashersky.

Sigh.

Talking about it allows scum to try and affect how town uses their one opportunity to fight the monster.  As scum, I did theory-steering to good effect.

I like seeing some reactions to me opening the game with a play.  I think you are having a towny reaction, for example.

That same argument can be used to argue against discussing our lynch, you know.

[faust]

Sorry. I know see that 6 wasn't a very good roll. I rolled only a couple dice, but 6 was the highest I had, and I had to play one.
So faust's assumption seems to not be taking a lot of things into account.

Also, how many dice did you roll exactly?

I'm back to vote: Ichimaru for now. The one thing we need to do is discourage bad dice rolls. And I think his reaction to being accused is scummy.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Sorry. I know see that 6 wasn't a very good roll. I rolled only a couple dice, but 6 was the highest I had, and I had to play one.
So faust's assumption seems to not be taking a lot of things into account.

What is my assumption? What do I not take into account?

Ok. I rolled a low number of dice because I didn't want to lose too many. I have to play one of those dice. So I played the highest one, which happened to be not that good. Yet you find me scummy for this.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Sorry. I know see that 6 wasn't a very good roll. I rolled only a couple dice, but 6 was the highest I had, and I had to play one.
So faust's assumption seems to not be taking a lot of things into account.

Also, how many dice did you roll exactly?

I'm back to vote: Ichimaru for now. The one thing we need to do is discourage bad dice rolls. And I think his reaction to being accused is scummy.

Why should I tell you? What if you have some ability to mess up me somehow? For sure, there are mafia out there, and putting it out there will just give them more information.

[faust]

I think I know what alignment someone has based on their role, but I probably shouldn't trust my guess that much.

I'm getting towny vibes from both Faust and ash.
vote: IG

Unless stated otherwise, all roles and parts of roles are assigned completely randomly and independently of alignment.

[faust]

Feeling better about the Ichi vote.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Feeling better about the Ichi vote.

Could you just respond to what I said?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Maybe it has to do with this being a really different setup, but you seem incredibly assure of your read at a very early stage in the game. We've played a number of games together and you've seen the way I defend myself. Why is it different now?

[Jimmmmm]

XerxesPraelor plays an 11.
Score: 674

[Jimmmmm]

Score: 574

[XerxesPraelor]

Anyone know why Faust's(?) die is gone?

[pingpongsam]

I rolled well ahead of realizing my supply was depleted. Nice theory though, maybe you can leverage it for my mislynch when I am actually out of dice while you do whatever you please with the ones you stole?

Was your supply depleted before or after your claim?

I do not follow the question. I am assuming my supply was depleted going into D1. When I posted the realization is when I realized it myself. Checking my QT now I see that my new supply number was proved at 4pm D1. I have yet to subscribe to my QT so I am not yet getting alerts to new posts in it. Now that I am looking at it again I see that my supply is now reduced further than the number of dice I rolled today. In fact, in full disclosure, N0 I had 9 dice, starting D1 I had 5 dice. I rolled 3 dice and I have 1 remaining die in my supply.

 Knowing my own power I suspect that I am the target of multiple N0 actions with 1 of them likely a Town action. I was extremely tempted to use my power N0 because it might have allowed me an advantage in determining a player's alignment. However, ultimately I could not reconcile wielding it on a likely town player.

I expect my reduced utility to the game at this point to mean I am the easy mislynch.

[XerxesPraelor]

This is really what I like about RMM games. I think I can piece together lots of things, but things are still complicated.

BTW, if I claim, I would be able to make myself an IC, but then I'd die and scum would get some information.

Right now, I'm very sure that PPS and faust are both town. I also think ash is town, but I'm not as sure.

Last, perhaps if both PPS and I claim, scum won't be able to kill both ICs in a single night, so we'll have two today and 1 tomorrow. How useful is that?

[faust]

Score: 574

Is this a correction or an updated to the post above? Because if it is a correction, I think the first one was correct.

[faust]

I rolled well ahead of realizing my supply was depleted. Nice theory though, maybe you can leverage it for my mislynch when I am actually out of dice while you do whatever you please with the ones you stole?

Was your supply depleted before or after your claim?

I do not follow the question. I am assuming my supply was depleted going into D1. When I posted the realization is when I realized it myself. Checking my QT now I see that my new supply number was proved at 4pm D1. I have yet to subscribe to my QT so I am not yet getting alerts to new posts in it. Now that I am looking at it again I see that my supply is now reduced further than the number of dice I rolled today. In fact, in full disclosure, N0 I had 9 dice, starting D1 I had 5 dice. I rolled 3 dice and I have 1 remaining die in my supply.

 Knowing my own power I suspect that I am the target of multiple N0 actions with 1 of them likely a Town action. I was extremely tempted to use my power N0 because it might have allowed me an advantage in determining a player's alignment. However, ultimately I could not reconcile wielding it on a likely town player.

I expect my reduced utility to the game at this point to mean I am the easy mislynch.

Did you store a die? Because if you do, one of your supply dice gets discarded.

[faust]

Sorry. I know see that 6 wasn't a very good roll. I rolled only a couple dice, but 6 was the highest I had, and I had to play one.
So faust's assumption seems to not be taking a lot of things into account.

Also, how many dice did you roll exactly?

I'm back to vote: Ichimaru for now. The one thing we need to do is discourage bad dice rolls. And I think his reaction to being accused is scummy.

Why should I tell you? What if you have some ability to mess up me somehow? For sure, there are mafia out there, and putting it out there will just give them more information.

What are you afraid of? If you told us how many dice you rolled, we could determine how likely it is that you are telling the truth.

[faust]

Maybe it has to do with this being a really different setup, but you seem incredibly assure of your read at a very early stage in the game. We've played a number of games together and you've seen the way I defend myself. Why is it different now?

From where are you taking that I'm "incredibly sure" of my read?

I think you are scum because odds say you are. Your reluctance to cooperate and general lack of contributions other than defending yourself add to that. But of course you could still be town.

[faust]

This is really what I like about RMM games. I think I can piece together lots of things, but things are still complicated.

BTW, if I claim, I would be able to make myself an IC, but then I'd die and scum would get some information.

Right now, I'm very sure that PPS and faust are both town. I also think ash is town, but I'm not as sure.

Last, perhaps if both PPS and I claim, scum won't be able to kill both ICs in a single night, so we'll have two today and 1 tomorrow. How useful is that?

This is stupid. Now that you said it, you are going to die, so you could as well full claim. Other than that, I think you best stop talking about roles.

[pingpongsam]

I rolled well ahead of realizing my supply was depleted. Nice theory though, maybe you can leverage it for my mislynch when I am actually out of dice while you do whatever you please with the ones you stole?

Was your supply depleted before or after your claim?

I do not follow the question. I am assuming my supply was depleted going into D1. When I posted the realization is when I realized it myself. Checking my QT now I see that my new supply number was proved at 4pm D1. I have yet to subscribe to my QT so I am not yet getting alerts to new posts in it. Now that I am looking at it again I see that my supply is now reduced further than the number of dice I rolled today. In fact, in full disclosure, N0 I had 9 dice, starting D1 I had 5 dice. I rolled 3 dice and I have 1 remaining die in my supply.

 Knowing my own power I suspect that I am the target of multiple N0 actions with 1 of them likely a Town action. I was extremely tempted to use my power N0 because it might have allowed me an advantage in determining a player's alignment. However, ultimately I could not reconcile wielding it on a likely town player.

I expect my reduced utility to the game at this point to mean I am the easy mislynch.

Did you store a die? Because if you do, one of your supply dice gets discarded.

Well now I just feel dumb.

[faust]

Play: 9

My dice have been rerolled. Probably scum behind that.

[faust]

Makes me wonder why they didn't target BA, though...

[XerxesPraelor]

Play: 9

My dice have been rerolled. Probably scum behind that.

So that's what it was. At least we got something almost as good.

This is really what I like about RMM games. I think I can piece together lots of things, but things are still complicated.

BTW, if I claim, I would be able to make myself an IC, but then I'd die and scum would get some information.

Right now, I'm very sure that PPS and faust are both town. I also think ash is town, but I'm not as sure.

Last, perhaps if both PPS and I claim, scum won't be able to kill both ICs in a single night, so we'll have two today and 1 tomorrow. How useful is that?

This is stupid. Now that you said it, you are going to die, so you could as well full claim. Other than that, I think you best stop talking about roles.

I don't know if it would be a good idea. This way, scum doesn't know whether my power is worth a kill or not. And okay, I'll stop talking about roles.

After hearing about how many dice most people seem to have, I think it was definitely too hasty to have everyone roll their dice immediately. We need to be able to confront the monsters successfully even later on, and can't end up with nothing.
vote: ashersky

Are we allowed to roll more than once? I think I should probably do that if able.

Makes me wonder why they didn't target BA, though...

Probably for WIFOM reasons.

Actually, vote: liopoil for a score that is completely average. What matters is that we beat this and an 8 is quite a bit worse than a higher score for us, because everything's squared.

No, actually, vote: IG for being around right when faust's role got discarded.

[liopoil]

I think I know what alignment someone has based on their role, but I probably shouldn't trust my guess that much.

not only is the quote someone posted saying that roles are independent of alignment a good point, this:

Impossible Investigations
It is never possible for a Town-aligned player to make any of the following investigations:

• Rolecopping.
• Tracking or Watching.
• Investigating the number of dice in another player’s supply, another player’s stored dice, or what another player has discarded.

convinces me further that you don't have anything here. Vote: XP for rolefishing/making vague statements.

[liopoil]

Faust, why would scum reroll your dice?

[ashersky]

Faust, why would scum reroll your dice?

When we had that power as scum in Dice Mafia I, we used it to get rid of a good roll, I think.

You can also use it on your buddies for WIFOM.

[XerxesPraelor]

I think I know what alignment someone has based on their role, but I probably shouldn't trust my guess that much.

not only is the quote someone posted saying that roles are independent of alignment a good point, this:

Impossible Investigations
It is never possible for a Town-aligned player to make any of the following investigations:

• Rolecopping.
• Tracking or Watching.
• Investigating the number of dice in another player’s supply, another player’s stored dice, or what another player has discarded.

convinces me further that you don't have anything here. Vote: XP for rolefishing/making vague statements.

I never asked the PR to claim. Also, although I might have messed up at the beginning, I needed to make vague statements so that scum wouldn't know what I was talking about while the person I was trying to talk to would. vote: liopoil for voting me immediately after I voted for him.

[XerxesPraelor]

Faust, why would scum reroll your dice?

Also, this sort of question is easily replicated by scum, so it's at best a null read for him.

[XerxesPraelor]

Also, part of the reason I'm willing to die is that I've lost the game for town every three times I've gotten to LYLO.

[XerxesPraelor]

Also, 1 more thing before I have to go: I'm pretty sure the legacy stone just gives us the alignment of people who are lynched.

[Jimmmmm]

faust plays a 9.
Score: 655

[Jimmmmm]

For everyone who has forgotten or didn't read the rules: every time you store a die, you discard a die from you supply.

As a Day 1-only offer, anyone who has stored a die Today may unstore it and undiscard the discarded die.

[Witherweaver]

For everyone who has forgotten or didn't read the rules: every time you store a die, you discard a die from you supply.

As a Day 1-only offer, anyone who has stored a die Today may unstore it and undiscard the discarded die.

So just to clarify, this is in additional to the dice it costs to roll, right?  So if I start with, say, 10 dice, then I roll 3, I have 7?  Now if I play one and store one, I have 6?

[Witherweaver]

Or does only playing/storing deplete from the supply, and rolling does not?

[Witherweaver]

Makes me wonder why they didn't target BA, though...

Why BA?

[Witherweaver]

Makes me wonder why they didn't target BA, though...

Why BA?

Oh, nevermind, I see the rerolling happened after you previously played a die. 

[Jimmmmm]

For everyone who has forgotten or didn't read the rules: every time you store a die, you discard a die from you supply.

As a Day 1-only offer, anyone who has stored a die Today may unstore it and undiscard the discarded die.

So just to clarify, this is in additional to the dice it costs to roll, right?  So if I start with, say, 10 dice, then I roll 3, I have 7?  Now if I play one and store one, I have 6?

That is correct.

[Witherweaver]

Maybe it has to do with this being a really different setup, but you seem incredibly assure of your read at a very early stage in the game. We've played a number of games together and you've seen the way I defend myself. Why is it different now?

See, the issue with this defense is that you're very conscious of your meta.  So now you know that defensive!Ichi = town!Ichi so you can just always be very defensive.  It's less of an alignment tell the more that you play.

[faust]

Faust, why would scum reroll your dice?

Yeah, good question. My play was the third highest at the time, with both Xerxes (11) and BA (12) above me. Now Xerxes played after me, so it's possible that they used the Delay mechanic and the choice was made before Xerxes played his die. Still makes little sense not to target BA, considering that (I think) he explicitly stated he only rolled 2 dice.

So I think either BA is scum or scum is trying to frame me.

The time of this reroll is also peculiar. One would think that scum waits until everyone has rolled, so they can use the power to the most effect.

PPE: 3

[faust]

No, actually, vote: IG for being around right when faust's role got discarded.

This is a null tell. Read about delay mechanics.

[chairs]

Play: 9

Faust, why would scum reroll your dice?

When we had that power as scum in Dice Mafia I, we used it to get rid of a good roll, I think.

You can also use it on your buddies for WIFOM.

I want to point out that we did exactly this in Dice Mafia I at least once.

[faust]

I am like 95% sure Xerxes is town at this point.

[Witherweaver]

This is really what I like about RMM games. I think I can piece together lots of things, but things are still complicated.

BTW, if I claim, I would be able to make myself an IC, but then I'd die and scum would get some information.

Right now, I'm very sure that PPS and faust are both town. I also think ash is town, but I'm not as sure.

Last, perhaps if both PPS and I claim, scum won't be able to kill both ICs in a single night, so we'll have two today and 1 tomorrow. How useful is that?

So, what's the point of saying this without claiming your role itself? 

[Witherweaver]

Faust, why would scum reroll your dice?

Yeah, good question. My play was the third highest at the time, with both Xerxes (11) and BA (12) above me. Now Xerxes played after me, so it's possible that they used the Delay mechanic and the choice was made before Xerxes played his die. Still makes little sense not to target BA, considering that (I think) he explicitly stated he only rolled 2 dice.

So I think either BA is scum or scum is trying to frame me.

The time of this reroll is also peculiar. One would think that scum waits until everyone has rolled, so they can use the power to the most effect.

PPE: 3

Do you know how the reroll mechanic works?  Does it reroll all dice you rolled, or only the one you played?  Are you then left with the option to play a different one from the ones you rolled before?  Can you roll any additional dice?

[Witherweaver]

So strange. ashersky, who is generally known for having plans, just opens this game by stumbling into playing dice. Lots of people are new to the mechanic, ashersky! Don't you think it would have been beneficial to discuss strategy for dice rolls before just starting with it? Seems like a good way for scum to force newer players to act without thinking things through, so slight scum read on ashersky.

I rolled immediately as everyone should.  We have a measley 389 to the 1000 health of the Troll.  Scum really wants the monster to win.  This was the case in the first version, too.

This is a closed setup, and I preferred no setup discussion/claiming on D1.  But of course, this is f.ds mafia.  We've seen this a million times, and yet it keeps happening.  Heck, I think mods can easily design against the meta, and do.

Rolling and playing our dice is something we have a choice to do, and that we should do, and so that's a clear sign of scumminess one way or the other.  We could do other regular game things, like RVS, or discuss the rolls.  And then lead to a D1 lynch that gives us information.

But no, someone will need to foist a mass claim/partial claim/planned claim plan thing and we'll all follow it or not, and then we'll get much less out of our lynch in the end.

So that's cool.

What impact did the monster death/survival have in the previous game?

[Witherweaver]

So strange. ashersky, who is generally known for having plans, just opens this game by stumbling into playing dice. Lots of people are new to the mechanic, ashersky! Don't you think it would have been beneficial to discuss strategy for dice rolls before just starting with it? Seems like a good way for scum to force newer players to act without thinking things through, so slight scum read on ashersky.

I rolled immediately as everyone should.  We have a measley 389 to the 1000 health of the Troll.  Scum really wants the monster to win.  This was the case in the first version, too.

This is a closed setup, and I preferred no setup discussion/claiming on D1.  But of course, this is f.ds mafia.  We've seen this a million times, and yet it keeps happening.  Heck, I think mods can easily design against the meta, and do.

Rolling and playing our dice is something we have a choice to do, and that we should do, and so that's a clear sign of scumminess one way or the other.  We could do other regular game things, like RVS, or discuss the rolls.  And then lead to a D1 lynch that gives us information.

But no, someone will need to foist a mass claim/partial claim/planned claim plan thing and we'll all follow it or not, and then we'll get much less out of our lynch in the end.

So that's cool.

vote: ashersky for not answering my question.

If you couldn't see that the answer to your question was "no" from my long answer, then you are being purposefully combative.

I agree with Faust's line of thinking here.  I specifically didn't do any rolling at the start because I wanted to see what was going on first and make more educated decisions.  As it is I rolled before I really figured out what was best. 

If the exact same peopled that played the other Dice game were in this one, I could see Ash's way of thinking.

[Witherweaver]

Sorry. I know see that 6 wasn't a very good roll. I rolled only a couple dice, but 6 was the highest I had, and I had to play one.
So faust's assumption seems to not be taking a lot of things into account.

I also don't like your use of "a couple" here. 

[Beyond Awesome]

I do think it strange that my dice weren't re-rolled. My guess is that ability has to be used within 1 hour of someone rolling. Either that, or scum is just trying to mess with our heads.

Anyway, this being my second game, I do recall Ichi being super talkative the one game I played with him, and he seemed to be trying to figure things out. Here, Ichi has not offered anything to the table and has been a bit more quiet than usual. So, that makes me very suspicious of him here. Plus, he got a low roll.

Vote: Ichi

[faust]

Do you know how the reroll mechanic works?  Does it reroll all dice you rolled, or only the one you played?  Are you then left with the option to play a different one from the ones you rolled before?  Can you roll any additional dice?

All dice I rolled were rerolled. I got to choose the die I play again, I also got to choose to store a die again. I wasn't able to change the number of dice rolled.

[faust]

What impact did the monster death/survival have in the previous game?

We haven't seen many monster powers there, but one (reward for town) was one mafia night kill blocked, so they are pretty significant.

[Witherweaver]

Sorry. I know see that 6 wasn't a very good roll. I rolled only a couple dice, but 6 was the highest I had, and I had to play one.
So faust's assumption seems to not be taking a lot of things into account.

What is my assumption? What do I not take into account?

Ok. I rolled a low number of dice because I didn't want to lose too many. I have to play one of those dice. So I played the highest one, which happened to be not that good. Yet you find me scummy for this.

This is kind of.. poor.  You say "yet you find me scummy for this" as if Faust knows all this, but his line of thinking is bad.  But there's no way Faust can know that you're telling the truth there.  So what is his fallacy?

I don't think rolling a low number of dice is scummy, though, as Ash claimed.  Scum has as much, if not more, incentive to roll more dice, so they can play one that makes it look like they're trying, but didn't get a great roll. Or playing a high one for town cred if they think that's more valuable.

Though, scum has motivation to claim they rolled a low number of dice if they didn't play a great roll, because the more dice they roll the less likely them missing a high roll is.
 
PPE: 3

[Witherweaver]

What impact did the monster death/survival have in the previous game?

We haven't seen many monster powers there, but one (reward for town) was one mafia night kill blocked, so they are pretty significant.

Okay, so scum would have to be pretty careful about playing high rolls to try to get cred.

[Witherweaver]

Okay another question for people that played previously: Are rolls used in any way other than to fight monsters?

[faust]

Okay another question for people that played previously: Are rolls used in any way other than to fight monsters?

Probably:

There may also be other uses for your stored dice.

[Witherweaver]

Okay another question for people that played previously: Are rolls used in any way other than to fight monsters?

Probably:

There may also be other uses for your stored dice.

Thanks.  But were there any in the previous one?

[Jimmmmm]

chairs plays a 9.
Score: 736

[faust]

Okay another question for people that played previously: Are rolls used in any way other than to fight monsters?

Probably:

There may also be other uses for your stored dice.

Thanks.  But were there any in the previous one?

No, I don't think so.

[XerxesPraelor]

I do think it strange that my dice weren't re-rolled. My guess is that ability has to be used within 1 hour of someone rolling. Either that, or scum is just trying to mess with our heads.

Anyway, this being my second game, I do recall Ichi being super talkative the one game I played with him, and he seemed to be trying to figure things out. Here, Ichi has not offered anything to the table and has been a bit more quiet than usual. So, that makes me very suspicious of him here. Plus, he got a low roll.

Vote: Ichi

unvote
Vote: BA

"He got a low roll" sounds like you know he didn't make it up, and the whole post seems to be a way to join a wagon on a mislynch.

[faust]

Okay another question for people that played previously: Are rolls used in any way other than to fight monsters?

Probably:

There may also be other uses for your stored dice.

Thanks.  But were there any in the previous one?

No, I don't think so.

Oh, wait, I'm wrong. There were powers to buy for stored dice, like vig or cop.

[Voltaire]

play: 5

Catching up now.

[Voltaire]

Very big town read on XP. Very unclear on ash.

The way things went down with PPS, I lean town on him. Enough that I don't want to lynch him D1. Two off so far (XP, PPS).

[Witherweaver]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Why so low?

Anyone keeping track of how many players we have left to play a die?

[XerxesPraelor]

Three people have not yet rolled, and we need 239 more fighting power to beat the troll.

If you're left, please roll no fewer than 3 dice. At this point it's really hard to overkill.

[Ichimaru Gin]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Why so low?

Anyone keeping track of how many players we have left to play a die?

Even lower than me. He must be scum!

No, he's probably just town who got bad luck like me.

[Ichimaru Gin]

And since it seems like it doesn't matter, I rolled 3 dice and got 6 4 6.

[Witherweaver]

Three people have not yet rolled, and we need 239 more fighting power to beat the troll.

If you're left, please roll no fewer than 3 dice. At this point it's really hard to overkill.

We need sqrt(239/3) = 8.92 on average from the three rolls.

So yes, roll many dices and play high ones.

[XerxesPraelor]

Actually, I counted Faust twice, so we luckily have 4 people left to roll 239.

[faust]

Dice roll statistics:

Target to reach: 1000
Average per player needed: 71.4 or roll of 9 or higher.

Probability of rolling 9 or higher
...with 1 die: 4/12 = 33.3%
...with 2 dice: 4/12+8/12*4/12 = 55.6%
...with 3 dice: 4/12+8/12*4/12+(8/12)²*4/12 = 70.4%
...with 4 dice: 4/12+8/12*4/12+(8/12)²*4/12+(8/12)³*4/12 = 80.2%

Plays so far:

ahersky: 9 (average)
Beyond Awesome: 12 (very good)
liopoil: 8 (below average)
Ichimaru Gin: 6 (bad)
Witherweaver: 8 (below average)
pingpongsam: 8 (below average)
faust: 9 (average - previously 10)
XerxesPraelor: 11 (good)
chairs: 9 (average)
Voltaire: 5 (very bad)

Remaining players: 4 (yuma, mail-mi, BoxOfDog, Hydrad)
Remaining target: 239
Needed average: 59.5 or roll of 8 or higher

[faust]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Why so low?

Anyone keeping track of how many players we have left to play a die?

Even lower than me. He must be scum!

No, he's probably just town who got bad luck like me.

So you are saying that scum would not try to purposefully play low numbers in this setup?

[Ichimaru Gin]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Why so low?

Anyone keeping track of how many players we have left to play a die?

Even lower than me. He must be scum!

No, he's probably just town who got bad luck like me.

So you are saying that scum would not try to purposefully play low numbers in this setup?

I actually see scum playing numbers about what I've played (low, but not too low). Still man, people are forced to play if they roll more than 1 right? So that skews things by a lot.

[Voltaire]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Why so low?

You'll have to ask the random number generator Jimmmmm is using.

I know whoever the new guy is I'm voting for hasn't even posted, so we have at least one player left, probably more.

[Witherweaver]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Why so low?

Anyone keeping track of how many players we have left to play a die?

Even lower than me. He must be scum!

No, he's probably just town who got bad luck like me.

So you are saying that scum would not try to purposefully play low numbers in this setup?

I actually see scum playing numbers about what I've played (low, but not too low). Still man, people are forced to play if they roll more than 1 right? So that skews things by a lot.

I disagree, I think a 6 draws too much attention (as you've seen), so I think they'd play in the 7-9 range.  Possibly as low as 6, but they'd certainly want to avoid that now.

Not sure what your point is with the forced to play thing.  Choosing not to play looks even worse than playing a low roll.

[Voltaire]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Why so low?

Anyone keeping track of how many players we have left to play a die?

Even lower than me. He must be scum!

No, he's probably just town who got bad luck like me.

So you are saying that scum would not try to purposefully play low numbers in this setup?

Last game, scum played all average/above average D1, if I remember correctly.

[Witherweaver]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Why so low?

Anyone keeping track of how many players we have left to play a die?

Even lower than me. He must be scum!

No, he's probably just town who got bad luck like me.

So you are saying that scum would not try to purposefully play low numbers in this setup?

Last game, scum played all average/above average D1, if I remember correctly.

Did you kill the monster day 1?

[Witherweaver]

BoxOfDog, Hydrad, get in here and roll some dice~!.

Mail-Mi, you're likely going to end up having to roll. 

[Witherweaver]

Well actually, get in here and make some posts.

[Voltaire]

Did you kill the monster day 1?

Yes. The reward was "scum's kill is guaranteed to fail D1". I forget if that was publicly announced, or not, before the night.

[Voltaire]

And by D1 I obviously mean N1.

[Voltaire]

I think it is extremely bad to claim # of dice rolled/results etc. with the thief/meddling roles that appear to exist here.

[Witherweaver]

Did you kill the monster day 1?

Yes. The reward was "scum's kill is guaranteed to fail D1". I forget if that was publicly announced, or not, before the night.

Hm, that may be relevant.  If it was not announced, they may not have considered killing the monster to be a big detriment, so they were more worried about looking town than making sure the monster survived.  If any scum here were in the previous game, they may reconsider the trade-off, knowing now what kind of implications the monster has.

[faust]

Did you kill the monster day 1?

Yes. The reward was "scum's kill is guaranteed to fail D1". I forget if that was publicly announced, or not, before the night.

Hm, that may be relevant.  If it was not announced, they may not have considered killing the monster to be a big detriment, so they were more worried about looking town than making sure the monster survived.  If any scum here were in the previous game, they may reconsider the trade-off, knowing now what kind of implications the monster has.

For your information, on day 2 of thelast game, one scum player actually played a 1.

[faust]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Why so low?

Anyone keeping track of how many players we have left to play a die?

Even lower than me. He must be scum!

No, he's probably just town who got bad luck like me.

So you are saying that scum would not try to purposefully play low numbers in this setup?

Last game, scum played all average/above average D1, if I remember correctly.

That's not really an answer to my question, though.

[Voltaire]

That's not really an answer to my question, though.

Oh, I actually thought you were being rhetorical. I do think scum is more likely to play low this game, given how the last one went.

That said, I'm anticipating that the rewards won't be quite so strong this time.

[EFHW]

Voltaire plays a 5
score: 761

Everyone gaped in amazement as EFHW reinflated and became alive again!

Vote Count 1.2

Hydrad (1): Voltaire
yuma (1): pingpongsam
mail-mi (1): ashersky
Ichimaru Gin (2): faust, Beyond Awesome
XerxesPraelor (1): liopoil
Beyond Awesome (1): XerxesPraelor

not voting (7): chairs, yuma, mail-mi, BoxOfDog, Witherweaver, Ichimaru Gin, Hydrad

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 1 at 4pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 3 at 4pm forum time.

Target: 1000
Score: 761

[Voltaire]

WW's early posts about the set-up scream "scum trying to make townslips" to me. This is possibly because my brain is conditioned to now always assume he is scum. But actually wow. There's a lot of them.

IG's posts scream scum but what I thought was a fast wagon scared me off. Now that I look, I see he only has two votes.

It's been a long time. Welcome back, D1 POE.

ashersky
chairs
yuma
mail-mi
BoxOfDog
Voltaire - me
faust - reroll. See comments on PPS.
XerxesPraelor - big town read
Witherweaver
Beyond Awesome - posts read townie, questions strike me as possible to come from new(er) player with vet partners. Low on list of candidates. His 12 not getting re-rolled seems like it could easily be framing, too.
Ichimaru Gin
liopoil
Hydrad - new
pingpongsam - dice swiped (yes, possibly a lie/gambit/action bussing by scum, but I do not think scum does this sort of thing nearly as often as we think they do)

Did scum target themselves last game with anti-town powers? I forget.

[pingpongsam]

My vote was not RVS. I put it out there for reactions and got none. I am voting yuma originally because his one and only post so far reads exactly like he wants to wait and see what he needs to roll to maybe kill the monster or near miss and store a high die. I continue voting him because LAL.

Did i miss something about his absence being more legit than it seems?

[Witherweaver]

My vote was not RVS. I put it out there for reactions and got none. I am voting yuma originally because his one and only post so far reads exactly like he wants to wait and see what he needs to roll to maybe kill the monster or near miss and store a high die. I continue voting him because LAL.

Did i miss something about his absence being more legit than it seems?

I'm pretty sure Yuma is still VLA.

[Witherweaver]

WW's early posts about the set-up scream "scum trying to make townslips" to me. This is possibly because my brain is conditioned to now always assume he is scum. But actually wow. There's a lot of them.

I can't always be scum, you know.  I posted about the setup with a lot of questions because I haven't played these mechanics before, so I want to understand everything.  Also I was involved with the flavor stuff (with some uncertainty as to whether it really was just flavor), so there was legitimately stuff to talk about.

[Voltaire]

WW's early posts about the set-up scream "scum trying to make townslips" to me. This is possibly because my brain is conditioned to now always assume he is scum. But actually wow. There's a lot of them.

I can't always be scum, you know.  I posted about the setup with a lot of questions because I haven't played these mechanics before, so I want to understand everything.  Also I was involved with the flavor stuff (with some uncertainty as to whether it really was just flavor), so there was legitimately stuff to talk about.

I know. And your starting with a maybe-are-we-sure-not-really object might be reason enough. It just stood out to be. Strongly.

[mail-mi]

BoxOfDog, Hydrad, get in here and roll some dice~!.

Mail-Mi, you're likely going to end up having to roll.

Probably.

[mail-mi]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Ichi gets all the heat for his roll but none for volt? vote: volt.

ACtually makes me think ichi is townier because the scums are going to put more pressure on a townie than on a partner.

[mail-mi]

Dice roll statistics:

Target to reach: 1000
Average per player needed: 71.4 or roll of 9 or higher.

Probability of rolling 9 or higher
...with 1 die: 4/12 = 33.3%
...with 2 dice: 4/12+8/12*4/12 = 55.6%
...with 3 dice: 4/12+8/12*4/12+(8/12)²*4/12 = 70.4%
...with 4 dice: 4/12+8/12*4/12+(8/12)²*4/12+(8/12)³*4/12 = 80.2%

Plays so far:

ahersky: 9 (average)
Beyond Awesome: 12 (very good)
liopoil: 8 (below average)
Ichimaru Gin: 6 (bad)
Witherweaver: 8 (below average)
pingpongsam: 8 (below average)
faust: 9 (average - previously 10)
XerxesPraelor: 11 (good)
chairs: 9 (average)
Voltaire: 5 (very bad)

Remaining players: 4 (yuma, mail-mi, BoxOfDog, Hydrad)
Remaining target: 239
Needed average: 59.5 or roll of 8 or higher

If I don't roll, that means the others need a 239/3=79.7 or a 9 or higher.

[Voltaire]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Ichi gets all the heat for his roll but none for volt? vote: volt.

ACtually makes me think ichi is townier because the scums are going to put more pressure on a townie than on a partner.

What are you talking about in your second sentence?

You do understand how probability works, right? With a large number of us some of us are going to have crappy rolls. I actually had virtually the worst result possible.

[mail-mi]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Ichi gets all the heat for his roll but none for volt? vote: volt.

ACtually makes me think ichi is townier because the scums are going to put more pressure on a townie than on a partner.

What are you talking about in your second sentence?

You do understand how probability works, right? With a large number of us some of us are going to have crappy rolls. I actually had virtually the worst result possible.

Second sentence means thus:

Two people get bad rolls. One is townie with bad luck, one is scum trying to sabotage. Partners are going to put more pressure on the townie than on their partner scum.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Townread on mail-mi. Exposing the different standards that faust is using. It's useful to hear about the previous game, but I'm not sure if scum would take the same tack. They probably know the scum meta for the last one and would do something different.

I'm going to vote: faust. For obviously biased application of his theories.

[Witherweaver]

Townread on mail-mi. Exposing the different standards that faust is using. It's useful to hear about the previous game, but I'm not sure if scum would take the same tack. They probably know the scum meta for the last one and would do something different.

I'm going to vote: faust. For obviously biased application of his theories.

Huh?  What standards?  What is Mail-Mi exposing?

Vote: Ichi for weirdly constructed OMGUS.

[Voltaire]

Second sentence means thus:

Two people get bad rolls. One is townie with bad luck, one is scum trying to sabotage. Partners are going to put more pressure on the townie than on their partner scum.

Hmm yes.

vote: IG

[Ichimaru Gin]

Gosh darn it! Look. I play a "low" number and a get a ton of heat for it. Volt plays an even lower number and gets no suspicion at all!

Can't you see it?!

Seriously. This is the worst wagon on me that I've ever seen.

[Witherweaver]

Gosh darn it! Look. I play a "low" number and a get a ton of heat for it. Volt plays an even lower number and gets no suspicion at all!

Can't you see it?!

Seriously. This is the worst wagon on me that I've ever seen.

How do you know that Faust doesn't suspect Volt?

[Voltaire]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Ichi gets all the heat for his roll but none for volt? vote: volt.

ACtually makes me think ichi is townier because the scums are going to put more pressure on a townie than on a partner.

What are you talking about in your second sentence?

You do understand how probability works, right? With a large number of us some of us are going to have crappy rolls. I actually had virtually the worst result possible.

Second sentence means thus:

Two people get bad rolls. One is townie with bad luck, one is scum trying to sabotage. Partners are going to put more pressure on the townie than on their partner scum.

And I played something, whereas you are trying to get away with not playing anything.

Which actually makes me lean town on you, I do not see scum being so explicit.

[mail-mi]

Gosh darn it! Look. I play a "low" number and a get a ton of heat for it. Volt plays an even lower number and gets no suspicion at all!

Can't you see it?!

don't worry I see it.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Gosh darn it! Look. I play a "low" number and a get a ton of heat for it. Volt plays an even lower number and gets no suspicion at all!

Can't you see it?!

Seriously. This is the worst wagon on me that I've ever seen.

How do you know that Faust doesn't suspect Volt?

It's not just faust. No one has really said anything about Volt. Why don't you suspect Volt? (I suspect him more for the lack of heat he's getting that mail-mi pointed out than his low roll).

PPE: 2

[mail-mi]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Ichi gets all the heat for his roll but none for volt? vote: volt.

ACtually makes me think ichi is townier because the scums are going to put more pressure on a townie than on a partner.

What are you talking about in your second sentence?

You do understand how probability works, right? With a large number of us some of us are going to have crappy rolls. I actually had virtually the worst result possible.

Second sentence means thus:

Two people get bad rolls. One is townie with bad luck, one is scum trying to sabotage. Partners are going to put more pressure on the townie than on their partner scum.

And I played something, whereas you are trying to get away with not playing anything.

Which actually makes me lean town on you, I do not see scum being so explicit.

My role makes it better if I don't roll unless absolutely necessary (heh heh role roll)

[Voltaire]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Ichi gets all the heat for his roll but none for volt? vote: volt.

ACtually makes me think ichi is townier because the scums are going to put more pressure on a townie than on a partner.

What are you talking about in your second sentence?

You do understand how probability works, right? With a large number of us some of us are going to have crappy rolls. I actually had virtually the worst result possible.

Second sentence means thus:

Two people get bad rolls. One is townie with bad luck, one is scum trying to sabotage. Partners are going to put more pressure on the townie than on their partner scum.

And I played something, whereas you are trying to get away with not playing anything.

Which actually makes me lean town on you, I do not see scum being so explicit.

My role makes it better if I don't roll unless absolutely necessary (heh heh role roll)

Right, and I'm talking about the other option being you're scum and pretending to have such a role.

[mail-mi]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Ichi gets all the heat for his roll but none for volt? vote: volt.

ACtually makes me think ichi is townier because the scums are going to put more pressure on a townie than on a partner.

What are you talking about in your second sentence?

You do understand how probability works, right? With a large number of us some of us are going to have crappy rolls. I actually had virtually the worst result possible.

Second sentence means thus:

Two people get bad rolls. One is townie with bad luck, one is scum trying to sabotage. Partners are going to put more pressure on the townie than on their partner scum.

And I played something, whereas you are trying to get away with not playing anything.

Which actually makes me lean town on you, I do not see scum being so explicit.

My role makes it better if I don't roll unless absolutely necessary (heh heh role roll)

Right, and I'm talking about the other option being you're scum and pretending to have such a role.

which is the wrong option--you'll see tomorrow.

[Voltaire]

Stop claiming.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I think it is extremely bad to claim # of dice rolled/results etc. with the thief/meddling roles that appear to exist here.

What does this make you think of faust's pressure for me to tell me how many dice I rolled?
I know he's a smart and experienced player, so I think he would know this as well.

[Ichimaru Gin]

tell *him

[Voltaire]

I think it is extremely bad to claim # of dice rolled/results etc. with the thief/meddling roles that appear to exist here.

What does this make you think of faust's pressure for me to tell me how many dice I rolled?
I know he's a smart and experienced player, so I think he would know this as well.

I did not notice that he asked that. It is definitely scummy/anti-town.

[Witherweaver]

Gosh darn it! Look. I play a "low" number and a get a ton of heat for it. Volt plays an even lower number and gets no suspicion at all!

Can't you see it?!

Seriously. This is the worst wagon on me that I've ever seen.

How do you know that Faust doesn't suspect Volt?

It's not just faust. No one has really said anything about Volt. Why don't you suspect Volt? (I suspect him more for the lack of heat he's getting that mail-mi pointed out than his low roll).

PPE: 2

Why should I expect volt?  I haven't put anything behind the "low rolls are scummy" argument. 

[Witherweaver]

I think it is extremely bad to claim # of dice rolled/results etc. with the thief/meddling roles that appear to exist here.

What does this make you think of faust's pressure for me to tell me how many dice I rolled?
I know he's a smart and experienced player, so I think he would know this as well.

This is a good point.  Until Volt brought it up, I hadn't thought about negative implications of making the number of dice rolled public.  Faust probably had, though.

[Witherweaver]

I don't see a big deal with Mail-Mi waiting to roll.  If we kill the troll without him, fine.  If he needs to roll to kill the troll, and he doesn't, or doesn't roll enough dice, then he becomes super scummy.

He's also made himself a good night-kill target with the claim that him having saved dice is going to be helpful later on. 

I'm going to second the motion that we should stop claiming stuff.

[chairs]

ooo let me claim next.  I'm a super awesome role that is only relevant on day 8!

 

[chairs]

(In other words, I agree that D1 going "MY ROLE IS GREAT" is bad, mmk?)

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, I am going to give a quick read. Right now, I think the most important thing is wait and see what the other players end up rolling, but we do have some information right now to work from. I am suspicious of any player that gets a low roll, so that means Volt and Ichi are the two most suspicious in my eyes. Although, it could very well be they just got bad rolls.

As far as PPS, I have reread his posts, and I am not sure what to think. First, he says, something prevents him from rolling. Then, he mentions that he had his dice swiped. Then, he rolls and then he states that he rolled his dice without knowing he had his dice stolen. However, I don't see how this is possible if he admits at first something was preventing him from rolling. Also, he has to roll from his QT, and he should have seen that his supply of dice was lower. This sounds very suspicious of me. I recommend that everyone goes back and rereads PPS earlier posts and tell me what you guys think.

I feel mail-mi is town, although I don't like him semi-claiming. But, I can see why he is doing it and telling us now, so that we know why he is withholding from rolling. So, for now, I think mail-mi is more Townie.

I also get a real town vibe from Faust, especially for putting the stats and rolls needed to defeat the monsters.

I also feel XP is town, but I don't like him also sort of semi-claiming early on. His interactions seem townie to me.

And, I am getting a town vibe on WW for having the Legacy Stone and also for being pretty engaged in this game.

I get null reads on liopoli, chairs, and ashersky.

As far as Yuma, BoxofDog, and Hydrad, we need more interactions from them and rolls.

[Voltaire]

I also get a real town vibe from Faust, especially for putting the stats and rolls needed to defeat the monsters.

This is a terrible reason to give someone town cred.

That said I agree with (most) of your other reads and like what it tells me about you.

[pingpongsam]

Okay, I am going to give a quick read. Right now, I think the most important thing is wait and see what the other players end up rolling, but we do have some information right now to work from. I am suspicious of any player that gets a low roll, so that means Volt and Ichi are the two most suspicious in my eyes. Although, it could very well be they just got bad rolls.

As far as PPS, I have reread his posts, and I am not sure what to think. First, he says, something prevents him from rolling. Then, he mentions that he had his dice swiped. Then, he rolls and then he states that he rolled his dice without knowing he had his dice stolen. However, I don't see how this is possible if he admits at first something was preventing him from rolling. Also, he has to roll from his QT, and he should have seen that his supply of dice was lower. This sounds very suspicious of me. I recommend that everyone goes back and rereads PPS earlier posts and tell me what you guys think.

I feel mail-mi is town, although I don't like him semi-claiming. But, I can see why he is doing it and telling us now, so that we know why he is withholding from rolling. So, for now, I think mail-mi is more Townie.

I also get a real town vibe from Faust, especially for putting the stats and rolls needed to defeat the monsters.

I also feel XP is town, but I don't like him also sort of semi-claiming early on. His interactions seem townie to me.

And, I am getting a town vibe on WW for having the Legacy Stone and also for being pretty engaged in this game.

I get null reads on liopoli, chairs, and ashersky.

As far as Yuma, BoxofDog, and Hydrad, we need more interactions from them and rolls.

I don't recall ever staing or having reason to state I was being prevented from rolling. In fact, I rolled as soon as I possibly could. I think you may be referring to the bit about "evenings" which I thought were real time evenings that we could not roll. I went ahead and submitted my roll ASAP but had no expectation of results until the next day. Jimmmmm clarified that evenings were "twilight"... or something, I guess, whatever, he gave me my results and I posted them right thereafter.

You tell me what Jimmmmm meant when he said we can't roll in the "evenings". In my time zone, when I was able to post and thus play it was definitely evening.

[mail-mi]

Okay, I am going to give a quick read. Right now, I think the most important thing is wait and see what the other players end up rolling, but we do have some information right now to work from. I am suspicious of any player that gets a low roll, so that means Volt and Ichi are the two most suspicious in my eyes. Although, it could very well be they just got bad rolls.

As far as PPS, I have reread his posts, and I am not sure what to think. First, he says, something prevents him from rolling. Then, he mentions that he had his dice swiped. Then, he rolls and then he states that he rolled his dice without knowing he had his dice stolen. However, I don't see how this is possible if he admits at first something was preventing him from rolling. Also, he has to roll from his QT, and he should have seen that his supply of dice was lower. This sounds very suspicious of me. I recommend that everyone goes back and rereads PPS earlier posts and tell me what you guys think.

I feel mail-mi is town, although I don't like him semi-claiming. But, I can see why he is doing it and telling us now, so that we know why he is withholding from rolling. So, for now, I think mail-mi is more Townie.

I also get a real town vibe from Faust, especially for putting the stats and rolls needed to defeat the monsters.

I also feel XP is town, but I don't like him also sort of semi-claiming early on. His interactions seem townie to me.

And, I am getting a town vibe on WW for having the Legacy Stone and also for being pretty engaged in this game.

I get null reads on liopoli, chairs, and ashersky.

As far as Yuma, BoxofDog, and Hydrad, we need more interactions from them and rolls.

I don't recall ever staing or having reason to state I was being prevented from rolling. In fact, I rolled as soon as I possibly could. I think you may be referring to the bit about "evenings" which I thought were real time evenings that we could not roll. I went ahead and submitted my roll ASAP but had no expectation of results until the next day. Jimmmmm clarified that evenings were "twilight"... or something, I guess, whatever, he gave me my results and I posted them right thereafter.

You tell me what Jimmmmm meant when he said we can't roll in the "evenings". In my time zone, when I was able to post and thus play it was definitely evening.

Evening
48 hours prior to deadline, the game enters the Evening phase. Unless specifically stated otherwise, no Day actions can be submitted during the Evening. Rolling dice cannot be done during the Evening, however playing and storing dice can.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, I am going to give a quick read. Right now, I think the most important thing is wait and see what the other players end up rolling, but we do have some information right now to work from. I am suspicious of any player that gets a low roll, so that means Volt and Ichi are the two most suspicious in my eyes. Although, it could very well be they just got bad rolls.

As far as PPS, I have reread his posts, and I am not sure what to think. First, he says, something prevents him from rolling. Then, he mentions that he had his dice swiped. Then, he rolls and then he states that he rolled his dice without knowing he had his dice stolen. However, I don't see how this is possible if he admits at first something was preventing him from rolling. Also, he has to roll from his QT, and he should have seen that his supply of dice was lower. This sounds very suspicious of me. I recommend that everyone goes back and rereads PPS earlier posts and tell me what you guys think.

I feel mail-mi is town, although I don't like him semi-claiming. But, I can see why he is doing it and telling us now, so that we know why he is withholding from rolling. So, for now, I think mail-mi is more Townie.

I also get a real town vibe from Faust, especially for putting the stats and rolls needed to defeat the monsters.

I also feel XP is town, but I don't like him also sort of semi-claiming early on. His interactions seem townie to me.

And, I am getting a town vibe on WW for having the Legacy Stone and also for being pretty engaged in this game.

I get null reads on liopoli, chairs, and ashersky.

As far as Yuma, BoxofDog, and Hydrad, we need more interactions from them and rolls.

I don't recall ever staing or having reason to state I was being prevented from rolling. In fact, I rolled as soon as I possibly could. I think you may be referring to the bit about "evenings" which I thought were real time evenings that we could not roll. I went ahead and submitted my roll ASAP but had no expectation of results until the next day. Jimmmmm clarified that evenings were "twilight"... or something, I guess, whatever, he gave me my results and I posted them right thereafter.

You tell me what Jimmmmm meant when he said we can't roll in the "evenings". In my time zone, when I was able to post and thus play it was definitely evening.

This was the post I was referring to.

I just got the opportunity to check in. As I understand it I can't roll right now anyway.

Vote: yuma

[pingpongsam]

Gotcha. While I thought I would not be getting results yesterealday, I went ahead and rolled. I even disclaimed my rolling in my QT by promising to check the QT prior to ever post following, which I did.

Thanks mail-mi for the rock solid clarification on evening. I was completely spent from work and tending a crying baby yesterealday realevening so I wasn't getting anything more than the fact that my rolls came back sooner than expected.

[pingpongsam]

I will say something statistically unlikely occurred with my rolls that leads me to believe they were manipulated and that it is possible that the manipulator could divine the results of the other dice from the played die value.

[Hydrad]

Ah ok I was away for a couple days but I'm back now. Just waiting on Jimm to tell me my results of the roll. Sorry for not being here right away

[Hydrad]

Play:7

I'm really sorry for this low roll. I rolled a few and this was the highest one :/.

[Hydrad]

<b>Play:7</b>

[Hydrad]

Play:7

(also sorry i couldn't find a edit button)

[yuma]

I am here... going to read the rules and get a dice roll down soon, but probably can't get a vote down as I havne't read through all the interactions... you guys are posting a lot!

And PPS... I am VLA. I posted it there and here. Please do not imply that I am making up a VLA or at least check the VLA thread before making such implications.

[EFHW]

Edit: XerxesPraelor has been attacked by the Troll.
Score: 640

Hydrad plays 7
Score: 810 689

[liopoil]

I think I know what alignment someone has based on their role, but I probably shouldn't trust my guess that much.

not only is the quote someone posted saying that roles are independent of alignment a good point, this:

Impossible Investigations
It is never possible for a Town-aligned player to make any of the following investigations:

• Rolecopping.
• Tracking or Watching.
• Investigating the number of dice in another player’s supply, another player’s stored dice, or what another player has discarded.

convinces me further that you don't have anything here. Vote: XP for rolefishing/making vague statements.

I never asked the PR to claim. Also, although I might have messed up at the beginning, I needed to make vague statements so that scum wouldn't know what I was talking about while the person I was trying to talk to would. vote: liopoil for voting me immediately after I voted for him.

faust answering your question shows that there is something different about him from the other townies. You didn't actually vote for me before I voted for you, and my vote was completely unrelated. I don't know why you would find my vote suspicious other than OMGUS, or is your vote RVS? there is also some irony to it, because you only voted for me after I voted for you.

I don't get the townreads on Xerxes. I'm not sure I've ever played with XP, so maybe he has some meta I don't know about, but for now my vote stands.

[liopoil]

We need 190 more to beat the troll.

If mail-mi doesn't roll, yuma+boxofdog need either 12/7, 11/9, 10/10, or higher to beat the troll
If mail-mi does roll, the three of them need 12/6/4, 12/5/5, 11/8/3, 11/7/4, 11/6/5, 10/9/3, 10/8/6, 10/7/7, 9/9/6, 9/8/8, or higher to beat the troll.

Of course, there may be one or more town PRs to push us over the edge to victory if needed.

[yuma]

play: 10

[Hydrad]

ok so 10 or higher and we beat the troll?

[liopoil]

yep!

If BoxOfDog rolls:

1 die, he has a 25% chance
2 dice, he has a 43.75% chance
3 dice, he has a 57.8% chance
4 dice, he has a 68.4% chance
5 dice, he has a 76.3% chance
6 dice, he has a 82.2% chance
7 dice, he has a 86.7% chance

How many dice should we have him roll? If he gets multiple dice 10 or higher, should he play the higher one or no? If he doesn't get a 10 or higher, should he necessarily play the highest that he did get?

I think 4 dice is about the right number of dice, maybe 5, but it also depends on how many he has in his supply. It's his call on whether to play the higher one or not. mail-mi's power is probably pretty good if it makes it worth it to not roll any dice. OTOH, it's a very nice shield for scum to hide behind.

If both players roll, we need either 9/3, 8/6, or 7/7 to beat the troll, which should be easy enough to get.

[pingpongsam]

Unvote

[ashersky]

Play:7

(also sorry i couldn't find a edit button)

Editing posts is against the rules.  Don't ever do it.

<b>Play:7</b>

Brand new, first game, huge scumslip...except we all have QTs in this game for rolling dice and stuff.

[ashersky]

yep!

If BoxOfDog rolls:

1 die, he has a 25% chance
2 dice, he has a 43.75% chance
3 dice, he has a 57.8% chance
4 dice, he has a 68.4% chance
5 dice, he has a 76.3% chance
6 dice, he has a 82.2% chance
7 dice, he has a 86.7% chance

How many dice should we have him roll? If he gets multiple dice 10 or higher, should he play the higher one or no? If he doesn't get a 10 or higher, should he necessarily play the highest that he did get?

I think 4 dice is about the right number of dice, maybe 5, but it also depends on how many he has in his supply. It's his call on whether to play the higher one or not. mail-mi's power is probably pretty good if it makes it worth it to not roll any dice. OTOH, it's a very nice shield for scum to hide behind.

If both players roll, we need either 9/3, 8/6, or 7/7 to beat the troll, which should be easy enough to get.

Why are we just giving mail-mi a pass on the rolling?  It's ridiculous.

[liopoil]

Why make him roll when we don't need to? If box can't get a 10, then we should make mail-mi roll for sure.

[ashersky]

Why make him roll when we don't need to? If box can't get a 10, then we should make mail-mi roll for sure.

Why allow him to save his dice when no one else got to?  That's the perfect place for scum to be.

If he was an Innocent Child, then sure, whatever.  But he's just another player, with no indication that he's anything special.

I reiterate my vote: mail-mi and don't see me voting for anyone else today at this point.

[EFHW]

yuma plays 10
Score: 910 789

[Beyond Awesome]

Where is BoxOfDog?

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.3

mail-mi (1): ashersky
Ichimaru Gin (4): faust, Beyond Awesome, Witherweaver, Voltaire
XerxesPraelor (1): liopoil
Beyond Awesome (1): XerxesPraelor
Voltaire (1): mail-mi
faust (1): Ichimaru Gin

not voting (5): chairs, yuma,  BoxOfDog, Hydrad, pingpongsam

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 1 at 4pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 3 at 4pm forum time.

Target: 1000
Score: 910 789

[Jimmmmm]

Score: 789

[Hydrad]

wait are we at 789 or 910?

[Jimmmmm]

Score: 789

[Hydrad]

If its gone from 910 to 789 it looks like we lost a roll of 11 somewhere? maybe someones dice got rerolled again.

[Beyond Awesome]

If its gone from 910 to 789 it looks like we lost a roll of 11 somewhere? maybe someones dice got rerolled again.

Either that, or they can outright remove a die from the equation. Anyway, all I have to say is ouch!

[Hydrad]

If its gone from 910 to 789 it looks like we lost a roll of 11 somewhere? maybe someones dice got rerolled again.

Either that, or they can outright remove a die from the equation. Anyway, all I have to say is ouch!

Which is interesting that they took out a 11 instead of your 12. unless maybe they have a restriction that doesn't allow them to take out certain numbers?

[Beyond Awesome]

If its gone from 910 to 789 it looks like we lost a roll of 11 somewhere? maybe someones dice got rerolled again.

Either that, or they can outright remove a die from the equation. Anyway, all I have to say is ouch!

Which is interesting that they took out a 11 instead of your 12. unless maybe they have a restriction that doesn't allow them to take out certain numbers?

I was thinking the same thing. Or, they want to draw suspicion on me. I am not sure which. But, I 100% agree that it is odd that both times my 12 has been unaffected.

[ashersky]

mail-mi better roll.

[XerxesPraelor]

Play: 11

[faust]

Play: 11

What happened?

[faust]

Townread on mail-mi. Exposing the different standards that faust is using. It's useful to hear about the previous game, but I'm not sure if scum would take the same tack. They probably know the scum meta for the last one and would do something different.

I'm going to vote: faust. For obviously biased application of his theories.

Can you explain this vote? I don't understand it.

[faust]

Gosh darn it! Look. I play a "low" number and a get a ton of heat for it. Volt plays an even lower number and gets no suspicion at all!

Can't you see it?!

Seriously. This is the worst wagon on me that I've ever seen.

Next thing you're going to say "you're susecting me for all the wrong reasons!"

[faust]

I think it is extremely bad to claim # of dice rolled/results etc. with the thief/meddling roles that appear to exist here.

What does this make you think of faust's pressure for me to tell me how many dice I rolled?
I know he's a smart and experienced player, so I think he would know this as well.

Expand. Why was it "extremely bad" in Ichi's case to get that information? (This is directed to both Voltaire and Ichi)

[faust]

faust answering your question shows that there is something different about him from the other townies. You didn't actually vote for me before I voted for you, and my vote was completely unrelated. I don't know why you would find my vote suspicious other than OMGUS, or is your vote RVS? there is also some irony to it, because you only voted for me after I voted for you.

I don't get the townreads on Xerxes. I'm not sure I've ever played with XP, so maybe he has some meta I don't know about, but for now my vote stands.

Trust me, Xerxes is not scum.

[faust]

I really think mail-mi should roll before BoxOfDog. He has made himself a premier night kill target, and night kills are even better for scum if they take down a lot of dice. So have two options:

1) mail-mi is telling the truth. In this case, he won't live long and should use his dice before he dies.
2) mail-mi is lying scum. In which case of course we should urge him to roll dice.

[faust]

Good thing about this scenario is: We know two scum roles with relative certainty, Thief and Reroller. With only 3 mafia in total, that means there's only one more role we have to worry about.

[Hydrad]

Good thing about this scenario is: We know two scum roles with relative certainty, Thief and Reroller. With only 3 mafia in total, that means there's only one more role we have to worry about.

Could you tell me what the certain restrictions and abilities of thief and reroller are? I'm just curious so I know how to play around them or what to expect

[XerxesPraelor]

No, we don't know what they are, we've just observed what's happened to our rolls. My 11, for example, got rerolled, but luckily. I got an 11 the second time too.

[faust]

Good thing about this scenario is: We know two scum roles with relative certainty, Thief and Reroller. With only 3 mafia in total, that means there's only one more role we have to worry about.

Could you tell me what the certain restrictions and abilities of thief and reroller are? I'm just curious so I know how to play around them or what to expect

For an answer, look at wht Xerxes said. Other than that, this post screams town to me.

[faust]

I'll take a look at the player field.

ashersky - well, the way he started the game was strange. But there was not much else that caught my suspicion.

chairs - lurking (well, we are only 2 days into the game, so maye this is unfair). I'll wait for more input.

yuma - also waiting for more posts when he's back from VLA.

mail-mi - I think he's more likely town than scum. Im taking him out of my lynch pool assuming that he will roll next. I just don't see scum!mail-mi pulling that kind of gambit.

BoxOfDog - well, nothing, so we have to wait. Considering that scum already took actions, while he never even posted, gives me a slight town read.

Voltaire - gives me a scummy vibe in this game. He rolled quite low, and acted sort of sheepish towards the Ichi wagon. Also, OMGUS.

faust - me

XerxesPraelor - almost certainly town.

Witherweaver - is his usual self. I have no read one way or the other.

Beyond Awesome - has this thing going where he just doesn't get rerolled. If scum really wants us to not defeat the monster, taking out 144 is just a lot better than taking out 121 or 100. I'm not sure they would skip that for WIFOM reasons only. Also, I found his read on PPS strange.

Ichimaru Gin - probably scum. Low roll, defensiveness, weakly explained OMGUS, little effort in scumhunting. A good place for my vote.

liopoil - not sure yet. I get a sort of townie feeling, but nothing solid.

Hydrad - looks townie, see above.

pingpongsam - I don't think he's making all this stuff about dice stealing up. Plus, if scum has that power, they will likely continue to use it, so we can confirm him being targeted.

[faust]

Ichimaru, Voltaire, BA are my top suspects right now.

[pingpongsam]

Ichimaru, Voltaire, BA are my top suspects right now.

I would tend to agree with these reads as well. My biggest issue with them is my complete lack of past experience with 2 of the 3. The only time I am sure where Voltaire stands is when I am scum. That said, he is typically protown regardless of alignment and he doesn't strike me as being so much this game. For the time being I have no read strong enough to vote on.

[liopoil]

The way I see it, mail-mi better prove to us that he has a role that benefits from not rolling in the next couple days. if he doesn't, we lynch him. Until then, I don't like the idea of weakening a likely town PR.

[liopoil]

faust answering your question shows that there is something different about him from the other townies. You didn't actually vote for me before I voted for you, and my vote was completely unrelated. I don't know why you would find my vote suspicious other than OMGUS, or is your vote RVS? there is also some irony to it, because you only voted for me after I voted for you.

I don't get the townreads on Xerxes. I'm not sure I've ever played with XP, so maybe he has some meta I don't know about, but for now my vote stands.

Trust me, Xerxes is not scum.

I, uhh, okay? I guess I'll trust this for now. Unvote

[liopoil]

Good thing about this scenario is: We know two scum roles with relative certainty, Thief and Reroller. With only 3 mafia in total, that means there's only one more role we have to worry about.

How do you know there are exactly 3 mafia??

[pingpongsam]

Good thing about this scenario is: We know two scum roles with relative certainty, Thief and Reroller. With only 3 mafia in total, that means there's only one more role we have to worry about.

How do you know there are exactly 3 mafia??

Even I saw that part in the game outline Jimmmmm provided:

Alignments
Exactly three players are Mafia-aligned. Everyone else is Town-aligned.

[Witherweaver]

If its gone from 910 to 789 it looks like we lost a roll of 11 somewhere? maybe someones dice got rerolled again.

Either that, or they can outright remove a die from the equation. Anyway, all I have to say is ouch!

I get a disingenuous feeling from this :/

[Witherweaver]

I really think mail-mi should roll before BoxOfDog. He has made himself a premier night kill target, and night kills are even better for scum if they take down a lot of dice. So have two options:

1) mail-mi is telling the truth. In this case, he won't live long and should use his dice before he dies.
2) mail-mi is lying scum. In which case of course we should urge him to roll dice.

Saddly this is true.  Downside of claiming.

[Witherweaver]

The way I see it, mail-mi better prove to us that he has a role that benefits from not rolling in the next couple days. if he doesn't, we lynch him. Until then, I don't like the idea of weakening a likely town PR.

Right, but the problem is, he basically came out and said that the longer he goes without rolling, the more powerful he'll be.  So why wouldn't scum just kill him tonight?  Especially if he doesn't roll, because then they get rid of even more dice.

(Basically what Faust said.)

[pingpongsam]

The way I see it, mail-mi better prove to us that he has a role that benefits from not rolling in the next couple days. if he doesn't, we lynch him. Until then, I don't like the idea of weakening a likely town PR.

Right, but the problem is, he basically came out and said that the longer he goes without rolling, the more powerful he'll be.  So why wouldn't scum just kill him tonight?  Especially if he doesn't roll, because then they get rid of even more dice.

(Basically what Faust said.)

I trust that a town!mail-mi knows best and is playing optimally for his supposed role. Judging by the previous Dice game it is entirely possible for scum to be deprived of their N1 kill so there's at least one way around this conundrum. As it is, I am giving mail-mi a D1 pass but I want to see what I bought D2. Also, if we need his roll to kill the troll then I think he should do so regardless of his role.

[Witherweaver]

The way I see it, mail-mi better prove to us that he has a role that benefits from not rolling in the next couple days. if he doesn't, we lynch him. Until then, I don't like the idea of weakening a likely town PR.

Right, but the problem is, he basically came out and said that the longer he goes without rolling, the more powerful he'll be.  So why wouldn't scum just kill him tonight?  Especially if he doesn't roll, because then they get rid of even more dice.

(Basically what Faust said.)

I trust that a town!mail-mi knows best and is playing optimally for his supposed role. Judging by the previous Dice game it is entirely possible for scum to be deprived of their N1 kill so there's at least one way around this conundrum. As it is, I am giving mail-mi a D1 pass but I want to see what I bought D2. Also, if we need his roll to kill the troll then I think he should do so regardless of his role.

Agreed.

[Voltaire]

Why make him roll when we don't need to? If box can't get a 10, then we should make mail-mi roll for sure.

Why allow him to save his dice when no one else got to?  That's the perfect place for scum to be.

If he was an Innocent Child, then sure, whatever.  But he's just another player, with no indication that he's anything special.

I reiterate my vote: mail-mi and don't see me voting for anyone else today at this point.

Has mail-mi played aggressive and bold as scum before? Semi-serious, semi-rhetorical question. I can't think of any times.

[Voltaire]

I think it is extremely bad to claim # of dice rolled/results etc. with the thief/meddling roles that appear to exist here.

What does this make you think of faust's pressure for me to tell me how many dice I rolled?
I know he's a smart and experienced player, so I think he would know this as well.

Expand. Why was it "extremely bad" in Ichi's case to get that information? (This is directed to both Voltaire and Ichi)

Do you know what powers scum has?

[Witherweaver]

Why make him roll when we don't need to? If box can't get a 10, then we should make mail-mi roll for sure.

Why allow him to save his dice when no one else got to?  That's the perfect place for scum to be.

If he was an Innocent Child, then sure, whatever.  But he's just another player, with no indication that he's anything special.

I reiterate my vote: mail-mi and don't see me voting for anyone else today at this point.

Has mail-mi played aggressive and bold as scum before? Semi-serious, semi-rhetorical question. I can't think of any times.

Well, this game is the most active I've seen him in the accumulation of all Mafia games that I've seen him in. 

Okay I guess that was just one other game.  But he was town there.

[Voltaire]

Good thing about this scenario is: We know two scum roles with relative certainty, Thief and Reroller. With only 3 mafia in total, that means there's only one more role we have to worry about.

How do you know there are exactly 3 mafia??

vote: liopoil

Tried to prevent XP from becoming a consensus town read, too.

[Voltaire]

I really think mail-mi should roll before BoxOfDog. He has made himself a premier night kill target, and night kills are even better for scum if they take down a lot of dice. So have two options:

1) mail-mi is telling the truth. In this case, he won't live long and should use his dice before he dies.
2) mail-mi is lying scum. In which case of course we should urge him to roll dice.

Saddly this is true.  Downside of claiming.

This as well. Still catching up though, not sure if Box or mail-mi have rolled at this point.

[yuma]

Good thing about this scenario is: We know two scum roles with relative certainty, Thief and Reroller. With only 3 mafia in total, that means there's only one more role we have to worry about.

How do you know there are exactly 3 mafia??

vote: liopoil

[Beyond Awesome]

The way I see it, mail-mi better prove to us that he has a role that benefits from not rolling in the next couple days. if he doesn't, we lynch him. Until then, I don't like the idea of weakening a likely town PR.

Right, but the problem is, he basically came out and said that the longer he goes without rolling, the more powerful he'll be.  So why wouldn't scum just kill him tonight?  Especially if he doesn't roll, because then they get rid of even more dice.

(Basically what Faust said.)

I trust that a town!mail-mi knows best and is playing optimally for his supposed role. Judging by the previous Dice game it is entirely possible for scum to be deprived of their N1 kill so there's at least one way around this conundrum. As it is, I am giving mail-mi a D1 pass but I want to see what I bought D2. Also, if we need his roll to kill the troll then I think he should do so regardless of his role.

I am also in agreement. Anyway, where is BoxofDog. We really need him to roll.

[yuma]

He probably doesn't even know the game has started... he wasn't exactly cognitive of the fact early or last game...

Oh good. I still have time xD

I was rifling through my email, like, "I DIDN'T GET A MESSAGE ABOUT PLAYING, DID I!? OH GOODNESS"
Thankfully that's not that case..
Whew!

[Voltaire]

Updating this.

ashersky
chairs
yuma
mail-mi - bad lynch for today but the claim is a problem as previously covered
BoxOfDog
Witherweaver
Beyond Awesome - I lean towards town scum is trying to frame at this point with the 12s. And if he's scum he rolled a 12 for us so yay.
Ichimaru Gin
liopoil

I took faust off last time? Apparently I took faust off last time.

Scum reads on lio/IG. Lurker lynch Box/chairs.

[Voltaire]

Oh, right, faust was re-rolled today.

Re-reading lio, he started off with lots of theory talk, pushed XP, then back to rolling theory talk. I actually feel really good about this.

[faust]

Yeah, there's a case for BA being town... I mean, scum would probably want to reroll him even if he was one of their own, yes? Only way this doesn't work is A) BA rolled two high dice and scum doesn't want to lose the stored one B) BA has the reroll power himself and can't use it on himself.

But I don't really buy the framing. After all, if that was the intention, why does noone attack BA? (Well, except Xerxes, but he's town)

[faust]

Oh, right, faust was re-rolled today.

Re-reading lio, he started off with lots of theory talk, pushed XP, then back to rolling theory talk. I actually feel really good about this.

This is your whole case, and you feel "really good" about it?

[Voltaire]

Oh, right, faust was re-rolled today.

Re-reading lio, he started off with lots of theory talk, pushed XP, then back to rolling theory talk. I actually feel really good about this.

This is your whole case, and you feel "really good" about it?

Yes. I take it you don't?

[Voltaire]

It sure feels better than IG, that's for sure.

[Witherweaver]

Good thing about this scenario is: We know two scum roles with relative certainty, Thief and Reroller. With only 3 mafia in total, that means there's only one more role we have to worry about.

How do you know there are exactly 3 mafia??

vote: liopoil

Lame!

[Voltaire]

Good thing about this scenario is: We know two scum roles with relative certainty, Thief and Reroller. With only 3 mafia in total, that means there's only one more role we have to worry about.

How do you know there are exactly 3 mafia??

vote: liopoil

Lame!

Don't turn into yuma.

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, there's a case for BA being town... I mean, scum would probably want to reroll him even if he was one of their own, yes? Only way this doesn't work is A) BA rolled two high dice and scum doesn't want to lose the stored one B) BA has the reroll power himself and can't use it on himself.

But I don't really buy the framing. After all, if that was the intention, why does noone attack BA? (Well, except Xerxes, but he's town)

Huh, B) is a good point, which I hadn't thought of.

[Witherweaver]

Good thing about this scenario is: We know two scum roles with relative certainty, Thief and Reroller. With only 3 mafia in total, that means there's only one more role we have to worry about.

How do you know there are exactly 3 mafia??

vote: liopoil

Lame!

Don't turn into yuma.

... look who I was replying to!

[Voltaire]

Good thing about this scenario is: We know two scum roles with relative certainty, Thief and Reroller. With only 3 mafia in total, that means there's only one more role we have to worry about.

How do you know there are exactly 3 mafia??

vote: liopoil

Lame!

Don't turn into yuma.

... look who I was replying to!

I take it back.

[Voltaire]

In all seriousness, in Greater Idea it was scum!XP who played up "I don't know how many scum there are" and faust (correctly) called him out on it.

[XerxesPraelor]

Uh, actually I was telling the truth about that - I just didn't look at the OP or forgot what it said there.

Also, B) is a really plausible idea, especially since BA played his die immediately at the beginning, which would mean he wouldn't have had enough time to think.

[Witherweaver]

In all seriousness, in Greater Idea it was scum!XP who played up "I don't know how many scum there are" and faust (correctly) called him out on it.

Yes, but that was a little different, as XP kind of went out of his way to show uncertainty in the knowledge, and didn't do it in the form of accusing someone else.  Also, Greater Idea was very much open, and this one is somewhat closed.

It seems just as likely that Liopoil didn't see that the number of Mafia were revealed and was suspicious of someone having that info.  If Liopoil really wanted to construct a false case against Faust, he'd probably check to make sure the information really wasn't given in the setup first.

PPE: 1

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, I feel our best lynch candidate (after everyone has rolled) is Ichi. I have only played Mafia once that being the Greater Idea game, but in that game Ichi played, very, very differently, and he was town that game. We have a very different Ichi here, so I am almost certain he is scum.

[Witherweaver]

Anyway, I feel our best lynch candidate (after everyone has rolled) is Ichi. I have only played Mafia once that being the Greater Idea game, but in that game Ichi played, very, very differently, and he was town that game. We have a very different Ichi here, so I am almost certain he is scum.

Vote: Beyond Awesome

[Voltaire]

Anyway, I feel our best lynch candidate (after everyone has rolled) is Ichi. I have only played Mafia once that being the Greater Idea game, but in that game Ichi played, very, very differently, and he was town that game. We have a very different Ichi here, so I am almost certain he is scum.

Vote: Beyond Awesome

Why is this worth a vote? Or is it in conjunction with the "BA can't roll himself" idea?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Anyway, I feel our best lynch candidate (after everyone has rolled) is Ichi. I have only played Mafia once that being the Greater Idea game, but in that game Ichi played, very, very differently, and he was town that game. We have a very different Ichi here, so I am almost certain he is scum.

Back for a few.

You say "very differently" but offer no specifics. I really don't want to get into another argument about how I play town, but I think you should offer more than a general statement.

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, I feel our best lynch candidate (after everyone has rolled) is Ichi. I have only played Mafia once that being the Greater Idea game, but in that game Ichi played, very, very differently, and he was town that game. We have a very different Ichi here, so I am almost certain he is scum.

Back for a few.

You say "very differently" but offer no specifics. I really don't want to get into another argument about how I play town, but I think you should offer more than a general statement.

Okay, you seem more defensive this game. You seem to not be saying as much and/or giving as many thoughts. In Greater Idea, I felt like I got your entire thought process. Here, I am seeing very little to none of that. Overall, you just come across as different this time.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Anyway, I feel our best lynch candidate (after everyone has rolled) is Ichi. I have only played Mafia once that being the Greater Idea game, but in that game Ichi played, very, very differently, and he was town that game. We have a very different Ichi here, so I am almost certain he is scum.

Back for a few.

You say "very differently" but offer no specifics. I really don't want to get into another argument about how I play town, but I think you should offer more than a general statement.

Okay, you seem more defensive this game. You seem to not be saying as much and/or giving as many thoughts. In Greater Idea, I felt like I got your entire thought process. Here, I am seeing very little to none of that. Overall, you just come across as different this time.

I'd say I'm normally always defensive. You are right that I'm not posting as many thoughts (if at all) though. I really want to get more into this game, but I am pretty busy at the moment. I have more free time today though tomorrow is almost entirely shot. That being said, I have a townread on you I think.

[Voltaire]

In all seriousness, in Greater Idea it was scum!XP who played up "I don't know how many scum there are" and faust (correctly) called him out on it.

Yes, but that was a little different, as XP kind of went out of his way to show uncertainty in the knowledge, and didn't do it in the form of accusing someone else.  Also, Greater Idea was very much open, and this one is somewhat closed.

It seems just as likely that Liopoil didn't see that the number of Mafia were revealed and was suspicious of someone having that info.  If Liopoil really wanted to construct a false case against Faust, he'd probably check to make sure the information really wasn't given in the setup first.

PPE: 1

Then I'm not thinking of Greater Idea but some other game. Where # of scum was public knowledge.

[Witherweaver]

Anyway, I feel our best lynch candidate (after everyone has rolled) is Ichi. I have only played Mafia once that being the Greater Idea game, but in that game Ichi played, very, very differently, and he was town that game. We have a very different Ichi here, so I am almost certain he is scum.

Vote: Beyond Awesome

Why is this worth a vote? Or is it in conjunction with the "BA can't roll himself" idea?

Looks like classic deflecting attention off of one's self by jumping yo the nearest wagon.  Ichi seems different, but not very, very different.  There hasn't even been enough game for Ichi to be noticeably different.

I wouldn't see a vet scum doing this, but I can believe first time. (BA was town in Greater Idea?)

[yuma]

It was X-men I believe.

[Witherweaver]

In all seriousness, in Greater Idea it was scum!XP who played up "I don't know how many scum there are" and faust (correctly) called him out on it.

Yes, but that was a little different, as XP kind of went out of his way to show uncertainty in the knowledge, and didn't do it in the form of accusing someone else.  Also, Greater Idea was very much open, and this one is somewhat closed.

It seems just as likely that Liopoil didn't see that the number of Mafia were revealed and was suspicious of someone having that info.  If Liopoil really wanted to construct a false case against Faust, he'd probably check to make sure the information really wasn't given in the setup first.

PPE: 1

Then I'm not thinking of Greater Idea but some other game. Where # of scum was public knowledge.

I meant Innovation.  I thought you did too

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, I feel our best lynch candidate (after everyone has rolled) is Ichi. I have only played Mafia once that being the Greater Idea game, but in that game Ichi played, very, very differently, and he was town that game. We have a very different Ichi here, so I am almost certain he is scum.

Vote: Beyond Awesome

Why is this worth a vote? Or is it in conjunction with the "BA can't roll himself" idea?

Looks like classic deflecting attention off of one's self by jumping yo the nearest wagon.  Ichi seems different, but not very, very different.  There hasn't even been enough game for Ichi to be noticeably different.

I wouldn't see a vet scum doing this, but I can believe first time. (BA was town in Greater Idea?)

Yes, I was town during Greater Idea

[Witherweaver]

Plus, the hyperboles.  How can he be so close to certain?  Last time I saw someone speak like this was first_scum!DD in monster U

[mail-mi]

Why make him roll when we don't need to? If box can't get a 10, then we should make mail-mi roll for sure.

Why allow him to save his dice when no one else got to?  That's the perfect place for scum to be.

If he was an Innocent Child, then sure, whatever.  But he's just another player, with no indication that he's anything special.

I reiterate my vote: mail-mi and don't see me voting for anyone else today at this point.

Has mail-mi played aggressive and bold as scum before? Semi-serious, semi-rhetorical question. I can't think of any times.

Well, this game is the most active I've seen him in the accumulation of all Mafia games that I've seen him in. 

Okay I guess that was just one other game.  But he was town there.

Its called "summer break." No school or homework = more active.

[pingpongsam]

What if scum!mail-mi's role gets more powerful if he manages to not roll today?

This actually seems very plausible because effectively not rolling as scum would take big balls.

[Witherweaver]

What if scum!mail-mi's role gets more powerful if he manages to not roll today?

This actually seems very plausible because effectively not rolling as scum would take big balls.

Is there a precedent from the last game of such a role?

[Voltaire]

What if scum!mail-mi's role gets more powerful if he manages to not roll today?

This actually seems very plausible because effectively not rolling as scum would take big balls.

Is there a precedent from the last game of such a role?

Not as far as I remember.

I am being made to re-think BA right now. I like WW's point about certainty and new scum.

[XerxesPraelor]

Also,
vote: BA
if I'm not there already.

[pingpongsam]

What if scum!mail-mi's role gets more powerful if he manages to not roll today?

This actually seems very plausible because effectively not rolling as scum would take big balls.

Is there a precedent from the last game of such a role?

Not that I am aware of. I am thinking of it more from a design standpoint. It makes more sense to make a scum role that gets more powerful if they succeed in doing something public that would certainly be in scum's interest to be doing. The obvious angle is to claim you are going to be a more powerful Town role. Also, I was imagining how the role might get more powerful and I imagined one in which I steal dice (because I know dice were stolen) and if I can maintain a certain number of dice into the night I have access to a better power. Nothing about that sounds towny though I am Town with a directly anti-town role power.

Anyway, all that is to say that I think we should weigh the risk vs. reward in case mail-mi is scum. while a super powered Townie is always nice (maybe he loses all dice but becomes IC?) is is worth the risk of a super power scum? I, personally, think I'd rather mitigate the risk of a super powered scum being created at the loss of a potential super powered Townie.

Initially I was going along with mail-mi because I considered his forward and blatant claim to be ardent for scum to be making but now that I deliberate on it I am not so certain it wasn't the only real move he had to make as scum. It has to at least be considered.

[pingpongsam]

I should note that all I am really considering is not a lynch but whether he should be made to roll, so I think the stakes are rather low, actually.

[chairs]

Well, this has been awfully interesting.

I think the "BA is scum that rolled 1 die, has the reroll power, but can't reroll himself" is an awfully interesting line of thought.  I'm certainly less inclined than others (Voltaire) to just right anybody off as town just yet.

SCUM: Please start tripping ye ol' chairs gut instinct alarm.  Thank you in advance.

part of me just wants to vote: yuma because I've got major concerns that a scum!yuma in this format would be really, devastatingly effective.. but random chance says town!yuma is more likely and he's also really useful, so unvote while I decide whether BA or IG is scummier.

[Voltaire]

I think the "BA is scum that rolled 1 die, has the reroll power, but can't reroll himself" is an awfully interesting line of thought.  I'm certainly less inclined than others (Voltaire) to just right anybody off as town just yet.

Point of clarification, D1 POE isn't an attempt to "name the scum team D1", it's an attempt to "maximize the odds the D1 lynch is on scum". There's really only one person I'm "writing off" as town right now and it's XP. Though I certainly think several others are town right now.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I think the "BA is scum that rolled 1 die, has the reroll power, but can't reroll himself" is an awfully interesting line of thought.  I'm certainly less inclined than others (Voltaire) to just right anybody off as town just yet.

Point of clarification, D1 POE isn't an attempt to "name the scum team D1", it's an attempt to "maximize the odds the D1 lynch is on scum". There's really only one person I'm "writing off" as town right now and it's XP. Though I certainly think several others are town right now.

Well, if you're town, how do you feel about being found scummy for playing a low dice?
What does it make you think of faust that he's handing out scum points right and left for things which are random and out of our control to a large degree? I mean, unless you roll a ton of dice, you aren't guaranteed to get a large number.

[Voltaire]

I think the "BA is scum that rolled 1 die, has the reroll power, but can't reroll himself" is an awfully interesting line of thought.  I'm certainly less inclined than others (Voltaire) to just right anybody off as town just yet.

Point of clarification, D1 POE isn't an attempt to "name the scum team D1", it's an attempt to "maximize the odds the D1 lynch is on scum". There's really only one person I'm "writing off" as town right now and it's XP. Though I certainly think several others are town right now.

Well, if you're town, how do you feel about being found scummy for playing a low dice?
What does it make you think of faust that he's handing out scum points right and left for things which are random and out of our control to a large degree? I mean, unless you roll a ton of dice, you aren't guaranteed to get a large number.

It's understandable, basically, and I also think it's wrong. Last game all the low rollers were town. I am wondering if the fact that proved so devastating means scum won't do it this game, which leads to suspicion of you. On the other hand, you weren't around then.

faust strikes me as more likely to be town. He could be scum who self-targeted the re-roll for WIFOM but I'm not so sure about that on D1.

He was the one who answered XP's question, wasn't he?

[Witherweaver]

I think the "BA is scum that rolled 1 die, has the reroll power, but can't reroll himself" is an awfully interesting line of thought.  I'm certainly less inclined than others (Voltaire) to just right anybody off as town just yet.

Point of clarification, D1 POE isn't an attempt to "name the scum team D1", it's an attempt to "maximize the odds the D1 lynch is on scum". There's really only one person I'm "writing off" as town right now and it's XP. Though I certainly think several others are town right now.

Well, if you're town, how do you feel about being found scummy for playing a low dice?
What does it make you think of faust that he's handing out scum points right and left for things which are random and out of our control to a large degree? I mean, unless you roll a ton of dice, you aren't guaranteed to get a large number.

See the problem with your defense, as I said before, is that you're not really defending against the other person's position.  If someone is finding you scummy for having a low roll, they obviously don't think that you're town and just got unlucky.  Yes, it's possible it's random and out of your control, but it may also not be out of your control.  It's also possible that a low roll is from a scum who rolled multiple dice, saved a different one, and played a low or mid-range roll in hopes we'd miss out on killing the monster.

If you're telling the truth here, then yes, from your position it was just random and unlucky.  Form everyone else's position, they can't know that.  The claim that Faust targeted you unfairly isn't really valid; you have to see the line of thinking where playing low rolls draws suspicion. 

[Ichimaru Gin]

I think the "BA is scum that rolled 1 die, has the reroll power, but can't reroll himself" is an awfully interesting line of thought.  I'm certainly less inclined than others (Voltaire) to just right anybody off as town just yet.

Point of clarification, D1 POE isn't an attempt to "name the scum team D1", it's an attempt to "maximize the odds the D1 lynch is on scum". There's really only one person I'm "writing off" as town right now and it's XP. Though I certainly think several others are town right now.

Well, if you're town, how do you feel about being found scummy for playing a low dice?
What does it make you think of faust that he's handing out scum points right and left for things which are random and out of our control to a large degree? I mean, unless you roll a ton of dice, you aren't guaranteed to get a large number.

See the problem with your defense, as I said before, is that you're not really defending against the other person's position.  If someone is finding you scummy for having a low roll, they obviously don't think that you're town and just got unlucky.  Yes, it's possible it's random and out of your control, but it may also not be out of your control.  It's also possible that a low roll is from a scum who rolled multiple dice, saved a different one, and played a low or mid-range roll in hopes we'd miss out on killing the monster.

If you're telling the truth here, then yes, from your position it was just random and unlucky.  Form everyone else's position, they can't know that.  The claim that Faust targeted you unfairly isn't really valid; you have to see the line of thinking where playing low rolls draws suspicion.

Well obviously, scum has a vested interest in playing low numbers. I see the argument, but it's really 100% WIFOM. Aside from reads separate from the numbers that someone plays, there is no way to tell if they are unlucky town or lying scum. I hope that people see this.
To me, this is one of the things that makes this setup really interesting. It would be pretty dull if faust was right and it's just a cut and dry low number = scum (which of course it isn't).

[Voltaire]

Better than spending time on IG right now would be spending time on Box, lio, or BA.

[liopoil]

What? I DEFINITELY read the OP and setup post (I always do!) and there's no way that was there at the time. Was it added later? That's something I would have taken note of and remembered for sure.

[liopoil]

Good thing about this scenario is: We know two scum roles with relative certainty, Thief and Reroller. With only 3 mafia in total, that means there's only one more role we have to worry about.

How do you know there are exactly 3 mafia??

vote: liopoil

Tried to prevent XP from becoming a consensus town read, too.

Why does my having missed some crucial game information make me more likely to be scum? Obviously scum can fake this, but do they have a motive to? Doesn't seem like it, since all it does is garner votes

As for my suspicion of XP, I think I had (and have) good reason for that, and am only not voting him because of faust.

[liopoil]

Why are people talking about voting for box? Obviously is lurking is bad, but he hasn't posted at all. He clearly is busy doing something or another, regardless of his alignment. I don't think scum!box would just decide not to post right off the bat.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Why are people talking about voting for box? Obviously is lurking is bad, but he hasn't posted at all. He clearly is busy doing something or another, regardless of his alignment. I don't think scum!box would just decide not to post right off the bat.

If he was scum, I'm sure his buddies would have told him not to do that. Didn't he play a 12, or was that BA and Box has yet to play a dice?

[liopoil]

Why are people talking about voting for box? Obviously is lurking is bad, but he hasn't posted at all. He clearly is busy doing something or another, regardless of his alignment. I don't think scum!box would just decide not to post right off the bat.

If he was scum, I'm sure his buddies would have told him not to do that. Didn't he play a 12, or was that BA and Box has yet to play a dice?

BA played a 12. box hasn't even posted yet.

[Voltaire]

What? I DEFINITELY read the OP and setup post (I always do!) and there's no way that was there at the time. Was it added later? That's something I would have taken note of and remembered for sure.

It DEFINITELY has been there since the beginning.

[Voltaire]

As for my suspicion of XP, I think I had (and have) good reason for that, and am only not voting him because of faust.

I think you don't. What did faust say that so convinced you?

[liopoil]

What? I DEFINITELY read the OP and setup post (I always do!) and there's no way that was there at the time. Was it added later? That's something I would have taken note of and remembered for sure.

It DEFINITELY has been there since the beginning.

did you see it there at the very beginning? I am almost certain that it wasn't. That post was edited as recently as two days ago. I read the OP and setup post just a few hours after PMs were sent.

[liopoil]

As for my suspicion of XP, I think I had (and have) good reason for that, and am only not voting him because of faust.

I think you don't. What did faust say that so convinced you?

You think I don't? Well, did you read my explanation for my vote on him? faust told me to trust him, that XP was town. I have a town read on faust and they do have an interaction which leads me to believe that faust possibly has very good reason to believe XP is town. XP is not off the table for me; I still think his actions are suspicious, but for now I am going to trust faust.

[chairs]

I think the "BA is scum that rolled 1 die, has the reroll power, but can't reroll himself" is an awfully interesting line of thought.  I'm certainly less inclined than others (Voltaire) to just right anybody off as town just yet.

Point of clarification, D1 POE isn't an attempt to "name the scum team D1", it's an attempt to "maximize the odds the D1 lynch is on scum". There's really only one person I'm "writing off" as town right now and it's XP. Though I certainly think several others are town right now.

Fair enough, and it's not like I don't also use D1 POE.  I just wanted to tease you a little bit 

[ashersky]

Can we lynch mail-mi now?

[Witherweaver]

Can we lynch mail-mi now?

Certainly not---the Troll isn't dead.

[ashersky]

Can we lynch mail-mi now?

Certainly not---the Troll isn't dead.

Ah!  Good point.

Can we lynch mail-mi when he refuses to kill the Troll?

[ashersky]

Request prod on Box.

[liopoil]

Can we lynch mail-mi when he refuses to kill the Troll?

yes, of course.

[ashersky]

Quoting for truth.

General Gameplay and Etiquette:

6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 24 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.

Miscellaneous/Mechanics:

5. Prods of missing players will be issued automatically on request after 24 hours of no activity.  A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement.  A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.

7. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread.  Treat this game as a commitment.  Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.

[mail-mi]

Can we lynch mail-mi now?

Certainly not---the Troll isn't dead.

Ah!  Good point.

Can we lynch mail-mi when he refuses to kill the Troll?

No, because I won't. If my roll is needed then my roll will be rolled.

[pingpongsam]

Mail-mi, would you care to respond to my analysis on the implications if you are scum? By that, I do not mean defend yourself but state if and why you think letting us make you super power is a fair risk to take should you prove to be scum. In other words, in terms of risk assessment how is not more prudent to force you to roll regardless of your alignment?

I'd love to hear others respond as well. I think it is an important point but no one seems to care.

[Beyond Awesome]

Mail-mi, would you care to respond to my analysis on the implications if you are scum? By that, I do not mean defend yourself but state if and why you think letting us make you super power is a fair risk to take should you prove to be scum. In other words, in terms of risk assessment how is not more prudent to force you to roll regardless of your alignment?

I'd love to hear others respond as well. I think it is an important point but no one seems to care.

Actually, I do care as well. And, I agree with your points.

[mail-mi]

What if scum!mail-mi's role gets more powerful if he manages to not roll today?

This actually seems very plausible because effectively not rolling as scum would take big balls.

Is there a precedent from the last game of such a role?

Not that I am aware of. I am thinking of it more from a design standpoint. It makes more sense to make a scum role that gets more powerful if they succeed in doing something public that would certainly be in scum's interest to be doing. The obvious angle is to claim you are going to be a more powerful Town role. Also, I was imagining how the role might get more powerful and I imagined one in which I steal dice (because I know dice were stolen) and if I can maintain a certain number of dice into the night I have access to a better power. Nothing about that sounds towny though I am Town with a directly anti-town role power.

Anyway, all that is to say that I think we should weigh the risk vs. reward in case mail-mi is scum. while a super powered Townie is always nice (maybe he loses all dice but becomes IC?) is is worth the risk of a super power scum? I, personally, think I'd rather mitigate the risk of a super powered scum being created at the loss of a potential super powered Townie.

Initially I was going along with mail-mi because I considered his forward and blatant claim to be ardent for scum to be making but now that I deliberate on it I am not so certain it wasn't the only real move he had to make as scum. It has to at least be considered.

is this the one you're talking about?

[Hydrad]

What if scum!mail-mi's role gets more powerful if he manages to not roll today?

This actually seems very plausible because effectively not rolling as scum would take big balls.

Is there a precedent from the last game of such a role?

Not that I am aware of. I am thinking of it more from a design standpoint. It makes more sense to make a scum role that gets more powerful if they succeed in doing something public that would certainly be in scum's interest to be doing. The obvious angle is to claim you are going to be a more powerful Town role. Also, I was imagining how the role might get more powerful and I imagined one in which I steal dice (because I know dice were stolen) and if I can maintain a certain number of dice into the night I have access to a better power. Nothing about that sounds towny though I am Town with a directly anti-town role power.

Anyway, all that is to say that I think we should weigh the risk vs. reward in case mail-mi is scum. while a super powered Townie is always nice (maybe he loses all dice but becomes IC?) is is worth the risk of a super power scum? I, personally, think I'd rather mitigate the risk of a super powered scum being created at the loss of a potential super powered Townie.

Initially I was going along with mail-mi because I considered his forward and blatant claim to be ardent for scum to be making but now that I deliberate on it I am not so certain it wasn't the only real move he had to make as scum. It has to at least be considered.

I think I believe mail-mi is town and trying to help us with an ability. Personally I think it would be surprising if a scum had that much confidence in making up a role like that and putting himself under a bunch of suspicion right away. But then again I'm terrible at playing a scum role and we could be playing into their hands.

Personally my vote is ok with mail-mi saving but I understand that there is a risk behind it.

[Hydrad]

What if scum!mail-mi's role gets more powerful if he manages to not roll today?

This actually seems very plausible because effectively not rolling as scum would take big balls.

Is there a precedent from the last game of such a role?

Not that I am aware of. I am thinking of it more from a design standpoint. It makes more sense to make a scum role that gets more powerful if they succeed in doing something public that would certainly be in scum's interest to be doing. The obvious angle is to claim you are going to be a more powerful Town role. Also, I was imagining how the role might get more powerful and I imagined one in which I steal dice (because I know dice were stolen) and if I can maintain a certain number of dice into the night I have access to a better power. Nothing about that sounds towny though I am Town with a directly anti-town role power.

Anyway, all that is to say that I think we should weigh the risk vs. reward in case mail-mi is scum. while a super powered Townie is always nice (maybe he loses all dice but becomes IC?) is is worth the risk of a super power scum? I, personally, think I'd rather mitigate the risk of a super powered scum being created at the loss of a potential super powered Townie.

Initially I was going along with mail-mi because I considered his forward and blatant claim to be ardent for scum to be making but now that I deliberate on it I am not so certain it wasn't the only real move he had to make as scum. It has to at least be considered.

I think I believe mail-mi is town and trying to help us with an ability. Personally I think it would be surprising if a scum had that much confidence in making up a role like that and putting himself under a bunch of suspicion right away. But then again I'm terrible at playing a scum role and we could be playing into their hands.

Personally my vote is ok with mail-mi saving but I understand that there is a risk behind it.

Sorry i'm really bad at quoting it looks like.

[Witherweaver]

I could see one of the more theory-heavy people (Archetype, Ash, maybe Faust) making such a claim, but I have trouble seeing it from Mail-Mi.  On the other hand, if one of those such players is Mail-Mi's partner, they could have talked about it. 

My instinct is that it's coming from town Mail-Mi.

In regards to PingPong's statement particularly, recall that Roles are random with respect to alignment.  So town could get a scum role, scum could get a town role.  This makes me think the design of roles are you're describing is less likely, but I'm not sure of that.

I think the RvR is enough to not lynch Mail-Mi today, and be okay with him not rolling if we kill the troll.

Also keep in mind, if I was scum!<person that hasn't posted yet.. BoxofDog?>, and I knew Mail-Mi was town, I might just hang back and let town crucify Mail-Mi, or at least until he uses his dice to weaken his potential power.

[Witherweaver]

(Not that Archetype is in this game, he's just someone I could see doing such a thing.)

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hydrad. When you're quoting, go to the very bottom of the post past the last /quote thing and write your new post starting there.

[yuma]

Request prod on Box.

I think a PM to sudgy asking him to get in contact with Boxy in RL might be the best bet as it appears Box doesn't check his PMs that often... or log on that often period...

[pingpongsam]

Removing the personality of mail-mi from the situation the question boils down to "is the gamble of a potential town super power worth the risk of a scum super power when the mechanism to defusing the situation is not a lynch but a dice roll".

I think that if we obviate mail-mi from doing it as scum we have to obviate him doing it as town. Thus, the fact that he is in fact doing it is a null on his alignment. What I perceive him to be doing is following the path his role dictates and the path has the same resistance regardless of alignment. If my role says "avoid rolling dice on day x become more powerful on day y" then it is not a cunning plan to do just that. Mail-mi is no way indicted with his behavior; it is null all the way around. It does however put the onus on town to reach consensus on allowing. I, for one, am thinking I would rather forgo an inflated town PR to mitigate a possible inflated scum PR.

[ashersky]

Removing the personality of mail-mi from the situation the question boils down to "is the gamble of a potential town super power worth the risk of a scum super power when the mechanism to defusing the situation is not a lynch but a dice roll".

I think that if we obviate mail-mi from doing it as scum we have to obviate him doing it as town. Thus, the fact that he is in fact doing it is a null on his alignment. What I perceive him to be doing is following the path his role dictates and the path has the same resistance regardless of alignment. If my role says "avoid rolling dice on day x become more powerful on day y" then it is not a cunning plan to do just that. Mail-mi is no way indicted with his behavior; it is null all the way around. It does however put the onus on town to reach consensus on allowing. I, for one, am thinking I would rather forgo an inflated town PR to mitigate a possible inflated scum PR.

I think this means you agree with me that mail-mi should roll or die.

[Voltaire]

Removing the personality of mail-mi from the situation the question boils down to "is the gamble of a potential town super power worth the risk of a scum super power when the mechanism to defusing the situation is not a lynch but a dice roll".

I think that if we obviate mail-mi from doing it as scum we have to obviate him doing it as town. Thus, the fact that he is in fact doing it is a null on his alignment. What I perceive him to be doing is following the path his role dictates and the path has the same resistance regardless of alignment. If my role says "avoid rolling dice on day x become more powerful on day y" then it is not a cunning plan to do just that. Mail-mi is no way indicted with his behavior; it is null all the way around. It does however put the onus on town to reach consensus on allowing. I, for one, am thinking I would rather forgo an inflated town PR to mitigate a possible inflated scum PR.

It feels like you're assuming 50/50 odds on this, which isn't true.

[Witherweaver]

Removing the personality of mail-mi from the situation the question boils down to "is the gamble of a potential town super power worth the risk of a scum super power when the mechanism to defusing the situation is not a lynch but a dice roll".

I think that if we obviate mail-mi from doing it as scum we have to obviate him doing it as town. Thus, the fact that he is in fact doing it is a null on his alignment. What I perceive him to be doing is following the path his role dictates and the path has the same resistance regardless of alignment. If my role says "avoid rolling dice on day x become more powerful on day y" then it is not a cunning plan to do just that. Mail-mi is no way indicted with his behavior; it is null all the way around. It does however put the onus on town to reach consensus on allowing. I, for one, am thinking I would rather forgo an inflated town PR to mitigate a possible inflated scum PR.

I think this means you agree with me that mail-mi should roll or die.

"Roll or Die," new P-Diddy song.

[mail-mi]

Removing the personality of mail-mi from the situation the question boils down to "is the gamble of a potential town super power worth the risk of a scum super power when the mechanism to defusing the situation is not a lynch but a dice roll".

I think that if we obviate mail-mi from doing it as scum we have to obviate him doing it as town. Thus, the fact that he is in fact doing it is a null on his alignment. What I perceive him to be doing is following the path his role dictates and the path has the same resistance regardless of alignment. If my role says "avoid rolling dice on day x become more powerful on day y" then it is not a cunning plan to do just that. Mail-mi is no way indicted with his behavior; it is null all the way around. It does however put the onus on town to reach consensus on allowing. I, for one, am thinking I would rather forgo an inflated town PR to mitigate a possible inflated scum PR.

I think this means you agree with me that mail-mi should roll or die.

If BoxOfDOG can't beat the troll (or it gets too close to deadline) then I will roll. I swear it.

[Ichimaru Gin]

If BoxOfDOG can't beat the troll (or it gets too close to deadline) then I will roll. I swear it.

Yeah, why are people trying to find you scummy for a decision you haven't even made. We don't know what your power is, but if you're town they should trust that you'll make the right call.

[Beyond Awesome]

If BoxOfDOG can't beat the troll (or it gets too close to deadline) then I will roll. I swear it.

Yeah, why are people trying to find you scummy for a decision you haven't even made. We don't know what your power is, but if you're town they should trust that you'll make the right call.

I think ash is worried that mail-mi might be scum with a power that grows stronger the more times he doesn't use his dice rolls. So, ash thinks that mail-mi may have made up a story at the beginning to not roll his dice, so that his scum power becomes more powerful. Although, it is very well possible that mail-mi is also telling the truth.

[Ichimaru Gin]

If BoxOfDOG can't beat the troll (or it gets too close to deadline) then I will roll. I swear it.

Yeah, why are people trying to find you scummy for a decision you haven't even made. We don't know what your power is, but if you're town they should trust that you'll make the right call.

I think ash is worried that mail-mi might be scum with a power that grows stronger the more times he doesn't use his dice rolls. So, ash thinks that mail-mi may have made up a story at the beginning to not roll his dice, so that his scum power becomes more powerful. Although, it is very well possible that mail-mi is also telling the truth.

Well that is a danger I guess, as we don't really know what roles are possible in this game. But I just see so much WIFOM in almost every major argument made so far in this game. You put it perfectly in the "but he could also be telling the truth". I have more faith in interactions + theory than trying to paint people as scum based on random events. But here mail-mi swears that he will roll if its the only way to beat the troll. So he could have a scum PR along the lines of Ash's theory and is just doing this to avoid getting lynched--but couldn't he totally take the angle of stubborn town who thinks they know best and won't reveal their super awesome PR which is worth not killing the troll?

I don't know, all this makes me feel like mail-mi is town.

[Jimmmmm]

BoxOfDog has been prodded.

[ashersky]

I think ash is worried that mail-mi might be scum with a power that grows stronger the more times he doesn't use his dice rolls. So, ash thinks that mail-mi may have made up a story at the beginning to not roll his dice, so that his scum power becomes more powerful. Although, it is very well possible that mail-mi is also telling the truth.

This.  It's EXACTLY what scum would do.  Remember, powers were assigned without alignment in mind.  So his power may be real, even though he's not even claimed a power, so who knows?  But even if he has a real power, no way to know it's a town power.  And if it is a town power, no way to know if it is actually assigned to town.

Basically, I think mail-mi's claim was a classic scum play.  I really don't care what the power is at this point, because it doesn't matter.  I mean, a scum power that gets stronger without rolling is even worse, but scum is scum.

[XerxesPraelor]

But wouldn't town do the same thing?

[faust]

Well obviously, scum has a vested interest in playing low numbers. I see the argument, but it's really 100% WIFOM. Aside from reads separate from the numbers that someone plays, there is no way to tell if they are unlucky town or lying scum. I hope that people see this.
To me, this is one of the things that makes this setup really interesting. It would be pretty dull if faust was right and it's just a cut and dry low number = scum (which of course it isn't).

Why do you continue to choose to ignore that the low roll is not the only thing I find you scummy for?

[faust]

Also mail-mi, please roll now and end this argument. I have already laid out why you should if you are town: You are not likely to live long.

[pingpongsam]

But wouldn't town do the same thing?

Yes. We aren't talking about lynch here, though. We're talking about losing a town PR to defuse the threat of what could actually be a scum PR. Mail-mi thinks it exonerates him if he rolls when needed when I would contend he is only exonerated if he rolls at all. If box or his replacement succeeds in killing the troll the question still remains whether we just allowed a scum PR to strengthen or not. My question has been avoided all along, completely derailed by a false premise. It is a yes or no question for each person to decide; is the threat of mail-mi's power to potentially be scum sufficient deterrent to gaining a potential town PR? This has no implication of being 50/50 and nothing to with lynching mail-mi. In fact, that the question I have repeatedly ask remains unanswered while being twisted into other forms makes me think mail-mi is likely town for certainty.

Vote: ashersky

[ashersky]

PPS is mail-mi's partner.

[XerxesPraelor]

I don't think he'd be that forward about it. I think that even though mail-might is probably town, the power we get from the troll dying is probably important enough to make it worth losing some power from the PR. And if mail-mi is scum with a power that really needs dice, then that works as well.

To answer PPS's question, the threat is not sufficient deterrent for losing a PR to be worth it, but the deterrent in combination with the power of the troll is, so mail-mi should roll.

[XerxesPraelor]

PPS is mail-mi's partner.

You're joking, right?

[liopoil]

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

[pingpongsam]

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

mail-mi, don't answer that, we clearly have a thief amongst us.

[liopoil]

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

mail-mi, don't answer that, we clearly have a thief amongst us.

right, good call. But I mean, if he just wants to save dice I think we should make him roll. There are plenty of PRs who might just want to save dice.

[liopoil]

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

mail-mi, don't answer that, we clearly have a thief amongst us.

what do you think of the first two sentences of the quote? I am saying that it seems highly unlikely that he is scum who has a pro-scum power which will be helped by this, because if he isn't pro-town with his power we will lynch him.

[pingpongsam]

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

mail-mi, don't answer that, we clearly have a thief amongst us.

what do you think of the first two sentences of the quote? I am saying that it seems highly unlikely that he is scum who has a pro-scum power which will be helped by this, because if he isn't pro-town with his power we will lynch him.

Unless the scum super power is lynch proof...

[Hydrad]

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

mail-mi, don't answer that, we clearly have a thief amongst us.

what do you think of the first two sentences of the quote? I am saying that it seems highly unlikely that he is scum who has a pro-scum power which will be helped by this, because if he isn't pro-town with his power we will lynch him.

Unless the scum super power is lynch proof...

This is getting complicated now. Its interesting playing a game like this and not knowing any of the roles. Do we know if scum can still kill people in the night?

[XerxesPraelor]

We have no reason to think they can't. And in the last one they could.

[Witherweaver]

I think ash is worried that mail-mi might be scum with a power that grows stronger the more times he doesn't use his dice rolls. So, ash thinks that mail-mi may have made up a story at the beginning to not roll his dice, so that his scum power becomes more powerful. Although, it is very well possible that mail-mi is also telling the truth.

This.  It's EXACTLY what scum would do.  Remember, powers were assigned without alignment in mind.  So his power may be real, even though he's not even claimed a power, so who knows?  But even if he has a real power, no way to know it's a town power.  And if it is a town power, no way to know if it is actually assigned to town.

Basically, I think mail-mi's claim was a classic scum play.  I really don't care what the power is at this point, because it doesn't matter.  I mean, a scum power that gets stronger without rolling is even worse, but scum is scum.

It's worth noting that this is exactly what you would do as scum if Mail-Mi is town and you want to hinder his role becoming more powerful.

[Jimmmmm]

I have edited posts 262, 273 and 275 for correctness.

[Witherweaver]

But wouldn't town do the same thing?

Yes. We aren't talking about lynch here, though. We're talking about losing a town PR to defuse the threat of what could actually be a scum PR. Mail-mi thinks it exonerates him if he rolls when needed when I would contend he is only exonerated if he rolls at all. If box or his replacement succeeds in killing the troll the question still remains whether we just allowed a scum PR to strengthen or not. My question has been avoided all along, completely derailed by a false premise. It is a yes or no question for each person to decide; is the threat of mail-mi's power to potentially be scum sufficient deterrent to gaining a potential town PR? This has no implication of being 50/50 and nothing to with lynching mail-mi. In fact, that the question I have repeatedly ask remains unanswered while being twisted into other forms makes me think mail-mi is likely town for certainty.

Vote: ashersky

Ohhh, you were asking whether he should roll regardless of the troll.  I didn't understand that before.

It's hard to say because I have no idea what his (claimed town) ability is, or what the possible scum ability would be.  My inclination would be that it's not a tremendous risk to not have him roll a die if it isn't needed today, but that's at best a guess.  It's somewhat bolstered because I'm leaning town on him.

I also see Faust's point, that he's pretty much said "hey kill me tonight" if he is town, so he might as well go ahead and roll.

[Jimmmmm]

XerxesPraelor plays an 11.
Score: 910

Vote Count 1.4

mail-mi (1): ashersky
Ichimaru Gin (2): faust, Beyond Awesome
Beyond Awesome (2): XerxesPraelor, Witherweaver
Voltaire (1): mail-mi
faust (1): Ichimaru Gin
liopoil (2): Voltaire, yuma
ashersky (1): pingpongsam

not voting (4): chairs, BoxOfDog, Hydrad, liopoil

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 1 at 4pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 3 at 4pm forum time.

Target: 1000
Score: 910

[faust]

Edit: XerxesPraelor has been attacked by the Troll.
Score: 640

Hydrad plays 7
Score: 810 689

This is the edit in question. What do we make of it? "Has been attacked by the Troll"? Does this imply non-mafia interactions? The first reroll didn't have that clause, right?

[faust]

Do the monsters have special powers that we are not aware of?

[faust]

I still think it's scum who forced that reroll, possibly through controlling the Troll.

[faust]

This is probably relevant:

The Monsters are sent by the Mafia, and as such, Mafia-aligned players will have some level of control over them.

[faust]

Ahh, sorry, forgot we should use personal QTs for questions.

[Witherweaver]

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

mail-mi, don't answer that, we clearly have a thief amongst us.

Would the Theif behave differently based on the answer? 

I had assume Mail-Mi meant the first from what he said before.  Though I'm not sure why that distinction is important.

[faust]

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

mail-mi, don't answer that, we clearly have a thief amongst us.

Would the Theif behave differently based on the answer? 

I had assume Mail-Mi meant the first from what he said before.  Though I'm not sure why that distinction is important.

The answer to your question is pretty obvious, and in fact I begin to think you are posting these "dumb" questions on purpose.

[Witherweaver]

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

mail-mi, don't answer that, we clearly have a thief amongst us.

Would the Theif behave differently based on the answer? 

I had assume Mail-Mi meant the first from what he said before.  Though I'm not sure why that distinction is important.

The answer to your question is pretty obvious, and in fact I begin to think you are posting these "dumb" questions on purpose.

I'm missing something.  If his dice are good for him, the Thief would want to still them, whether or not they're good for him to use or good for him as a boost.

[Beyond Awesome]

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

mail-mi, don't answer that, we clearly have a thief amongst us.

Would the Theif behave differently based on the answer? 

I had assume Mail-Mi meant the first from what he said before.  Though I'm not sure why that distinction is important.

The answer to your question is pretty obvious, and in fact I begin to think you are posting these "dumb" questions on purpose.

I don't see how "WW" is being dumb here, and I don't understand why you are being so hostile for no apparent reason.

[faust]

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

mail-mi, don't answer that, we clearly have a thief amongst us.

Would the Theif behave differently based on the answer? 

I had assume Mail-Mi meant the first from what he said before.  Though I'm not sure why that distinction is important.

The answer to your question is pretty obvious, and in fact I begin to think you are posting these "dumb" questions on purpose.

I'm missing something.  If his dice are good for him, the Thief would want to still them, whether or not they're good for him to use or good for him as a boost.

If mail-mi can convert dice in his supply into power, then the Thief wants to target him. If he just gets something from not rolling, then he's not better as a Thief target than anyone else.

[Witherweaver]

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

mail-mi, don't answer that, we clearly have a thief amongst us.

Would the Theif behave differently based on the answer? 

I had assume Mail-Mi meant the first from what he said before.  Though I'm not sure why that distinction is important.

The answer to your question is pretty obvious, and in fact I begin to think you are posting these "dumb" questions on purpose.

I'm missing something.  If his dice are good for him, the Thief would want to still them, whether or not they're good for him to use or good for him as a boost.

If mail-mi can convert dice in his supply into power, then the Thief wants to target him. If he just gets something from not rolling, then he's not better as a Thief target than anyone else.

I assumed he would get something by not rolling because then he would have more dice.

[pingpongsam]

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

mail-mi, don't answer that, we clearly have a thief amongst us.

Would the Theif behave differently based on the answer? 

I had assume Mail-Mi meant the first from what he said before.  Though I'm not sure why that distinction is important.

The answer to your question is pretty obvious, and in fact I begin to think you are posting these "dumb" questions on purpose.

I'm missing something.  If his dice are good for him, the Thief would want to still them, whether or not they're good for him to use or good for him as a boost.

If mail-mi can convert dice in his supply into power, then the Thief wants to target him. If he just gets something from not rolling, then he's not better as a Thief target than anyone else.

I assumed he would get something by not rolling because then he would have more dice.

I would say that is a dangerous assumption to make. to wit, when I first started on this path I specifically stated a case wherein he would get an upgrade by virtue of not rolling as opposed to simply having more dice. I would expect that the possibility is the 50/50 in either direction and that information should stay with mail-mi alone.

[faust]

I don't think talking about whether or not mail-mi should roll helps us any further. He has all the input he needs to make his decision now.

[chairs]

vote: witherweaver.

Trying to get details on PR mechanics is a scum trait, since the more information you have on a PR the more you can evaluate its relative utility.

[pingpongsam]

I don't think talking about whether or not mail-mi should roll helps us any further. He has all the input he needs to make his decision now.

I have to agree, I am recalling that "evening" thing where he have a couple days to debate his lynch for not having rolled should he choose not to.

[Witherweaver]

vote: witherweaver.

Trying to get details on PR mechanics is a scum trait, since the more information you have on a PR the more you can evaluate its relative utility.

Trying to get details on a PR mechanic (or, anything really) is a me trait, though I didn't really realize I was doing that here.  What were you referring to?

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: witherweaver.

Trying to get details on PR mechanics is a scum trait, since the more information you have on a PR the more you can evaluate its relative utility.

Trying to get details on a PR mechanic (or, anything really) is a me trait, though I didn't really realize I was doing that here.  What were you referring to?

Mm. I kind of agree with this. I've played with WW a lot lately and he always seems curious and theory-heavy, even in HoC I think.

[BoxOfDOG]

Wow. 18 entire pages.. This is embarrassing.

My computer was locked down, so I have to do everything from my Kindle Fire. So expect posts to be kind of awkward and short.
Reading through everything ASAP so I can catch up and see what's going on. (No need to give me an update)

[chairs]

Wow. 18 entire pages.. This is embarrassing.

My computer was locked down, so I have to do everything from my Kindle Fire. So expect posts to be kind of awkward and short.
Reading through everything ASAP so I can catch up and see what's going on. (No need to give me an update)

And this, folks, is why you don't watch porn from FBI headquarters.

[chairs]

vote: witherweaver.

Trying to get details on PR mechanics is a scum trait, since the more information you have on a PR the more you can evaluate its relative utility.

Trying to get details on a PR mechanic (or, anything really) is a me trait, though I didn't really realize I was doing that here.  What were you referring to?

I really felt like this was a veiled "c'mon, mail-mi, slip up and give us your PR"

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

mail-mi, don't answer that, we clearly have a thief amongst us.

Would the Theif behave differently based on the answer? 

I had assume Mail-Mi meant the first from what he said before.  Though I'm not sure why that distinction is important.

The answer to your question is pretty obvious, and in fact I begin to think you are posting these "dumb" questions on purpose.

I'm missing something.  If his dice are good for him, the Thief would want to still them, whether or not they're good for him to use or good for him as a boost.

If mail-mi can convert dice in his supply into power, then the Thief wants to target him. If he just gets something from not rolling, then he's not better as a Thief target than anyone else.

I assumed he would get something by not rolling because then he would have more dice.

Although I might argue that PPS is really furthering that even more than you are, and liopoil's the one who kind of started this egg rolling.

[BoxOfDOG]

Wow. 18 entire pages.. This is embarrassing.

My computer was locked down, so I have to do everything from my Kindle Fire. So expect posts to be kind of awkward and short.
Reading through everything ASAP so I can catch up and see what's going on. (No need to give me an update)

And this, folks, is why you don't watch porn from FBI headquarters.

Ha.. Ha..?

._.
I find that joke very hard to appreciate.

[Witherweaver]

And he comes out firing with a pun!

[BoxOfDOG]

My general idea from reading (*cough*skimming*cough*) through everything..

Ichi feels incredibly defensive about people's position towards him. His low roll calls him out almost automatically as scum (and rightly so).

Faust goes very statistical, laying down some pretty useful information to use as reference in the future.

Liopoli getting a lot of suspicion, not entirely sure on the guy.

Confused read on BA, not sure if trying to divert attention as scum or get confirmation as town with his ridiculously high roll.

And chairs rolls out an inappropriate joke *yay*


Does that sound about right? Cause that's what I grabbed from all this.
Also, I rolled my dice and the results should come in pretty soon if Jimmmmmm logs on.

[BoxOfDOG]

One last thing..

My supply went down from 13 to 15.. Is this due to being inactive, or did someone take my dice? Q-Q
*notentirelysureifIshouldbepostingthisinformationonlyplayedlike4gamesofmafiaonhere*

[Beyond Awesome]

Yay! Box has logged on. Also, I don't think you should tell people how many dice you have.

[BoxOfDOG]

Yay! Box has logged on. Also, I don't think you should tell people how many dice you have.

ERFGABLERGH.

I knew it!
CURSE YOU LACK-OF-EDIT BUTTON!

[Witherweaver]

One last thing..

My supply went down from 13 to 15.. Is this due to being inactive, or did someone take my dice? Q-Q
*notentirelysureifIshouldbepostingthisinformationonlyplayedlike4gamesofmafiaonhere*

Well, first, 15 is bigger than 13 so there's an issue. (har har)

Secondly, slow down.  Do you understand what's going on with the monsters, the dice mechanic, the need for us to kill him, and all that stuff?

[BoxOfDOG]

One last thing..

My supply went down from 13 to 15.. Is this due to being inactive, or did someone take my dice? Q-Q
*notentirelysureifIshouldbepostingthisinformationonlyplayedlike4gamesofmafiaonhere*

Well, first, 15 is bigger than 13 so there's an issue. (har har)

Secondly, slow down.  Do you understand what's going on with the monsters, the dice mechanic, the need for us to kill him, and all that stuff?

Yeah I do.
I've read through the roles and I was also in.. RMM14? 15? Something like that.

But I made sure to give myself a refresh on the whole dealio and I know what you guys are talking about.

[Witherweaver]

Thirdly, don't give any info away without some kind of understanding that it's a good idea to do so.  Things like number of dice you roll, the values, your role, etc. shouldn't be freely disclosed.

[BoxOfDOG]

One last thing..

My supply went down from 13 to 15.. Is this due to being inactive, or did someone take my dice? Q-Q
*notentirelysureifIshouldbepostingthisinformationonlyplayedlike4gamesofmafiaonhere*

Well, first, 15 is bigger than 13 so there's an issue. (har har)

Secondly, slow down.  Do you understand what's going on with the monsters, the dice mechanic, the need for us to kill him, and all that stuff?

Yeah I do.
I've read through the roles and I was also in.. RMM14? 15? Something like that.

But I made sure to give myself a refresh on the whole dealio and I know what you guys are talking about.

WOOPS! 15 to 13. I had that wrong. I keep getting confused by the down-to-up way of posting on Quicktopic.

[BoxOfDOG]

Thirdly, don't give any info away without some kind of understanding that it's a good idea to do so.  Things like number of dice you roll, the values, your role, etc. shouldn't be freely disclosed.

Yeah I caught that.
That was me being a dumb.. 5 minutes ago. So I'll make sure to stahpit.

[Witherweaver]

One last thing..

My supply went down from 13 to 15.. Is this due to being inactive, or did someone take my dice? Q-Q
*notentirelysureifIshouldbepostingthisinformationonlyplayedlike4gamesofmafiaonhere*

Well, first, 15 is bigger than 13 so there's an issue. (har har)

Secondly, slow down.  Do you understand what's going on with the monsters, the dice mechanic, the need for us to kill him, and all that stuff?

Yeah I do.
I've read through the roles and I was also in.. RMM14? 15? Something like that.

But I made sure to give myself a refresh on the whole dealio and I know what you guys are talking about.

Alright, so basically, (someone jump in if I'm misspeaking):

The troll is at 910, so we need 90 to kill him.  This means that if just you roll, you need a 10.  The number of dice you need to roll to ensure you do that to some probability can be computed.  If Mail-Mi rolls as well, then you just need 90 between the two of you.

I think the only person in the "Mail-Mi should roll before Box" corner is Ash, so I'd say go ahead and roll some dice and play a high number.

[Witherweaver]

Oh, I see you said you already rolled.  Okay.

[BoxOfDOG]

One last thing..

My supply went down from 13 to 15.. Is this due to being inactive, or did someone take my dice? Q-Q
*notentirelysureifIshouldbepostingthisinformationonlyplayedlike4gamesofmafiaonhere*

Well, first, 15 is bigger than 13 so there's an issue. (har har)

Secondly, slow down.  Do you understand what's going on with the monsters, the dice mechanic, the need for us to kill him, and all that stuff?

Yeah I do.
I've read through the roles and I was also in.. RMM14? 15? Something like that.

But I made sure to give myself a refresh on the whole dealio and I know what you guys are talking about.

Alright, so basically, (someone jump in if I'm misspeaking):

The troll is at 910, so we need 90 to kill him.  This means that if just you roll, you need a 10.  The number of dice you need to roll to ensure you do that to some probability can be computed.  If Mail-Mi rolls as well, then you just need 90 between the two of you.

I think the only person in the "Mail-Mi should roll before Box" corner is Ash, so I'd say go ahead and roll some dice and play a high number.

That entire situation seems kind of strange.

I don't really feel like pointing out the obvious, but it could be a pretty townie move to save his dice for a later date. But at the same time pretty scummy.
But I'd have to disagree with Mr. Ashersky, Mail rolling before me doesn't really make sense if we go by what Mail-mi is claiming.

[Witherweaver]

Well, Ash is arguing that not rolling is anti-town, and that claiming that you have a strong town PR that requires you to save your dice is a great cover for having a scum PR that uses dice.  I expect Ash to go after Mail-Mi for this regardless of Ash's alignment.  That being said, it feels a little more like WoT Ash (scum) than Innovation Ash (town).

[Ichimaru Gin]

Well obviously, scum has a vested interest in playing low numbers. I see the argument, but it's really 100% WIFOM. Aside from reads separate from the numbers that someone plays, there is no way to tell if they are unlucky town or lying scum. I hope that people see this.
To me, this is one of the things that makes this setup really interesting. It would be pretty dull if faust was right and it's just a cut and dry low number = scum (which of course it isn't).

Why do you continue to choose to ignore that the low roll is not the only thing I find you scummy for?

My roll was the first scummy thing you found about me--and it was the instigator to solidifying your reads on me.
I responded to your accusations and you found me even scummier for it. So, your calling me our for my low roll forms the foundation of your reads on me.

I am so tired of trying to argue this. In fact, I don't think I'm going to argue to defend my low play any more. If you can't see it by this point, it doesn't matter.

[BoxOfDOG]

Well, Ash is arguing that not rolling is anti-town, and that claiming that you have a strong town PR that requires you to save your dice is a great cover for having a scum PR that uses dice.  I expect Ash to go after Mail-Mi for this regardless of Ash's alignment.  That being said, it feels a little more like WoT Ash (scum) than Innovation Ash (town).

Interesting. At the current moment I feel like a spectator analyzing the situation from afar.. Which isn't a good thing, as far as I can tell.

But I think it's pretty clear where Ash is coming from.
This entire time Mail-mi has had every opportunity to roll his dice, and there was no clear possibility that I would actually log on. Doesn't that come off as a bit strange..?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ichi feels incredibly defensive about people's position towards him. His low roll calls him out almost automatically as scum (and rightly so).

No read on Volt?

I know you're new (and this is also a very different setup) but did you know that you have to play a dice if you roll over a certain number of dice--and also that these numbers are randomized?

Dah. I'm tired of this conversation anyway.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Well, Ash is arguing that not rolling is anti-town, and that claiming that you have a strong town PR that requires you to save your dice is a great cover for having a scum PR that uses dice.  I expect Ash to go after Mail-Mi for this regardless of Ash's alignment.  That being said, it feels a little more like WoT Ash (scum) than Innovation Ash (town).

Interesting. At the current moment I feel like a spectator analyzing the situation from afar.. Which isn't a good thing, as far as I can tell.

But I think it's pretty clear where Ash is coming from.
This entire time Mail-mi has had every opportunity to roll his dice, and there was no clear possibility that I would actually log on. Doesn't that come off as a bit strange..?

Well we have plenty of time to sort this out, so not really. mail-mi has like 6 days to roll if he wants.

vote: Box

I get an extremely newbie scum feeling from him.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Edit: XerxesPraelor has been attacked by the Troll.
Score: 640

Hydrad plays 7
Score: 810 689

This is the edit in question. What do we make of it? "Has been attacked by the Troll"? Does this imply non-mafia interactions? The first reroll didn't have that clause, right?

Also. Damn this is very scary. Can anyone run the numbers that we need now in order to beat the troll?

[BoxOfDOG]

Well obviously, scum has a vested interest in playing low numbers. I see the argument, but it's really 100% WIFOM. Aside from reads separate from the numbers that someone plays, there is no way to tell if they are unlucky town or lying scum. I hope that people see this.
To me, this is one of the things that makes this setup really interesting. It would be pretty dull if faust was right and it's just a cut and dry low number = scum (which of course it isn't).

Why do you continue to choose to ignore that the low roll is not the only thing I find you scummy for?

My roll was the first scummy thing you found about me--and it was the instigator to solidifying your reads on me.
I responded to your accusations and you found me even scummier for it. So, your calling me our for my low roll forms the foundation of your reads on me.

I am so tired of trying to argue this. In fact, I don't think I'm going to argue to defend my low play any more. If you can't see it by this point, it doesn't matter.

I don't have a direct response to Ichi here.. That said, people tend to act differently toward different attitudes directed towards them. This can be displayed easily by accusing something on something they did not do, they'll likely feel pretty defensive.

Ichi feels incredibly defensive about people's position towards him. His low roll calls him out almost automatically as scum (and rightly so).

No read on Volt?

I know you're new (and this is also a very different setup) but did you know that you have to play a dice if you roll over a certain number of dice--and also that these numbers are randomized?

Dah. I'm tired of this conversation anyway.

I know all of these things. Referring to what was already said, Scum has a vested interest in putting low numbers and defending it to make themselves seem like the unlucky town.

And I don't really have a read of Voltaire. *shrug*
Is that a big deal? I'm only pointing out what I found most significant throughout my little binge-reading escapade.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Well obviously, scum has a vested interest in playing low numbers. I see the argument, but it's really 100% WIFOM. Aside from reads separate from the numbers that someone plays, there is no way to tell if they are unlucky town or lying scum. I hope that people see this.
To me, this is one of the things that makes this setup really interesting. It would be pretty dull if faust was right and it's just a cut and dry low number = scum (which of course it isn't).

Why do you continue to choose to ignore that the low roll is not the only thing I find you scummy for?

My roll was the first scummy thing you found about me--and it was the instigator to solidifying your reads on me.
I responded to your accusations and you found me even scummier for it. So, your calling me our for my low roll forms the foundation of your reads on me.

I am so tired of trying to argue this. In fact, I don't think I'm going to argue to defend my low play any more. If you can't see it by this point, it doesn't matter.

I don't have a direct response to Ichi here.. That said, people tend to act differently toward different attitudes directed towards them. This can be displayed easily by accusing something on something they did not do, they'll likely feel pretty defensive.

Ichi feels incredibly defensive about people's position towards him. His low roll calls him out almost automatically as scum (and rightly so).

No read on Volt?

I know you're new (and this is also a very different setup) but did you know that you have to play a dice if you roll over a certain number of dice--and also that these numbers are randomized?

Dah. I'm tired of this conversation anyway.

I know all of these things. Referring to what was already said, Scum has a vested interest in putting low numbers and defending it to make themselves seem like the unlucky town.

And I don't really have a read of Voltaire. *shrug*
Is that a big deal? I'm only pointing out what I found most significant throughout my little binge-reading escapade.

Well you know Voltaire played a 5 right? (I understand it's hard to catch up on 18 pages).

You're right that scum has those interests, but there will definitely be unlucky town as well, so how do you propose to tell the difference?

[Witherweaver]

Edit: XerxesPraelor has been attacked by the Troll.
Score: 640

Hydrad plays 7
Score: 810 689

This is the edit in question. What do we make of it? "Has been attacked by the Troll"? Does this imply non-mafia interactions? The first reroll didn't have that clause, right?

Also. Damn this is very scary. Can anyone run the numbers that we need now in order to beat the troll?

What do you mean?  This was earlier, we're at 910 now.  And two people can still roll.  Right?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Edit: XerxesPraelor has been attacked by the Troll.
Score: 640

Hydrad plays 7
Score: 810 689

This is the edit in question. What do we make of it? "Has been attacked by the Troll"? Does this imply non-mafia interactions? The first reroll didn't have that clause, right?

Also. Damn this is very scary. Can anyone run the numbers that we need now in order to beat the troll?

What do you mean?  This was earlier, we're at 910 now.  And two people can still roll.  Right?

But doesn't this change the current number we have? I'm confused, so Jimmmmm went back and edited some posts, don't those affect the current count?

[BoxOfDOG]

Well obviously, scum has a vested interest in playing low numbers. I see the argument, but it's really 100% WIFOM. Aside from reads separate from the numbers that someone plays, there is no way to tell if they are unlucky town or lying scum. I hope that people see this.
To me, this is one of the things that makes this setup really interesting. It would be pretty dull if faust was right and it's just a cut and dry low number = scum (which of course it isn't).

Why do you continue to choose to ignore that the low roll is not the only thing I find you scummy for?

My roll was the first scummy thing you found about me--and it was the instigator to solidifying your reads on me.
I responded to your accusations and you found me even scummier for it. So, your calling me our for my low roll forms the foundation of your reads on me.

I am so tired of trying to argue this. In fact, I don't think I'm going to argue to defend my low play any more. If you can't see it by this point, it doesn't matter.

I don't have a direct response to Ichi here.. That said, people tend to act differently toward different attitudes directed towards them. This can be displayed easily by accusing something on something they did not do, they'll likely feel pretty defensive.

Ichi feels incredibly defensive about people's position towards him. His low roll calls him out almost automatically as scum (and rightly so).

No read on Volt?

I know you're new (and this is also a very different setup) but did you know that you have to play a dice if you roll over a certain number of dice--and also that these numbers are randomized?

Dah. I'm tired of this conversation anyway.

I know all of these things. Referring to what was already said, Scum has a vested interest in putting low numbers and defending it to make themselves seem like the unlucky town.

And I don't really have a read of Voltaire. *shrug*
Is that a big deal? I'm only pointing out what I found most significant throughout my little binge-reading escapade.

Well you know Voltaire played a 5 right? (I understand it's hard to catch up on 18 pages).

You're right that scum has those interests, but there will definitely be unlucky town as well, so how do you propose to tell the difference?

Hey that's what I'm trying to figure out.
But I do know that in mafia people tend to target the people that feel the most reactive to negative responses to a mistake/suspicious act.

You've been acting out the most in response to these.
This happened to me the last game, I got super defensive towards what people were saying, and because kept on poking the bear on me to see what would happen. It works.
People are suspicious of you for two reasons:
Your knee jerk reactions
Your low roll

[Witherweaver]

Edit: XerxesPraelor has been attacked by the Troll.
Score: 640

Hydrad plays 7
Score: 810 689

This is the edit in question. What do we make of it? "Has been attacked by the Troll"? Does this imply non-mafia interactions? The first reroll didn't have that clause, right?

Also. Damn this is very scary. Can anyone run the numbers that we need now in order to beat the troll?

What do you mean?  This was earlier, we're at 910 now.  And two people can still roll.  Right?

But doesn't this change the current number we have? I'm confused, so Jimmmmm went back and edited some posts, don't those affect the current count?

I'm pretty sure he edited for correctness and made sure everything as it stands is correct.  The last vote count (), after those edits, says we're at 910:

XerxesPraelor plays an 11.
Score: 910

Vote Count 1.4

mail-mi (1): ashersky
Ichimaru Gin (2): faust, Beyond Awesome
Beyond Awesome (2): XerxesPraelor, Witherweaver
Voltaire (1): mail-mi
faust (1): Ichimaru Gin
liopoil (2): Voltaire, yuma
ashersky (1): pingpongsam

not voting (4): chairs, BoxOfDog, Hydrad, liopoil

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 1 at 4pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 3 at 4pm forum time.

Target: 1000
Score: 910

[Ichimaru Gin]

Well obviously, scum has a vested interest in playing low numbers. I see the argument, but it's really 100% WIFOM. Aside from reads separate from the numbers that someone plays, there is no way to tell if they are unlucky town or lying scum. I hope that people see this.
To me, this is one of the things that makes this setup really interesting. It would be pretty dull if faust was right and it's just a cut and dry low number = scum (which of course it isn't).

Why do you continue to choose to ignore that the low roll is not the only thing I find you scummy for?

My roll was the first scummy thing you found about me--and it was the instigator to solidifying your reads on me.
I responded to your accusations and you found me even scummier for it. So, your calling me our for my low roll forms the foundation of your reads on me.

I am so tired of trying to argue this. In fact, I don't think I'm going to argue to defend my low play any more. If you can't see it by this point, it doesn't matter.

I don't have a direct response to Ichi here.. That said, people tend to act differently toward different attitudes directed towards them. This can be displayed easily by accusing something on something they did not do, they'll likely feel pretty defensive.

Ichi feels incredibly defensive about people's position towards him. His low roll calls him out almost automatically as scum (and rightly so).

No read on Volt?

I know you're new (and this is also a very different setup) but did you know that you have to play a dice if you roll over a certain number of dice--and also that these numbers are randomized?

Dah. I'm tired of this conversation anyway.

I know all of these things. Referring to what was already said, Scum has a vested interest in putting low numbers and defending it to make themselves seem like the unlucky town.

And I don't really have a read of Voltaire. *shrug*
Is that a big deal? I'm only pointing out what I found most significant throughout my little binge-reading escapade.

Well you know Voltaire played a 5 right? (I understand it's hard to catch up on 18 pages).

You're right that scum has those interests, but there will definitely be unlucky town as well, so how do you propose to tell the difference?

Hey that's what I'm trying to figure out.
But I do know that in mafia people tend to target the people that feel the most reactive to negative responses to a mistake/suspicious act.

You've been acting out the most in response to these.
This happened to me the last game, I got super defensive towards what people were saying, and because kept on poking the bear on me to see what would happen. It works.
People are suspicious of you for two reasons:
Your knee jerk reactions
Your low roll

I am a very reactive player when it comes to bad cases on me.

Your assessment is correct as to why people find me scummy.

But what do you think of Voltaire? His roll was even lower than mine, and you seem to be in faust's camp on that.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Edit: XerxesPraelor has been attacked by the Troll.
Score: 640

Hydrad plays 7
Score: 810 689

This is the edit in question. What do we make of it? "Has been attacked by the Troll"? Does this imply non-mafia interactions? The first reroll didn't have that clause, right?

Also. Damn this is very scary. Can anyone run the numbers that we need now in order to beat the troll?

What do you mean?  This was earlier, we're at 910 now.  And two people can still roll.  Right?

Ok. Did I just miss that Xerxes was attacked by the troll earlier?
Cause you're right that the most recent count shows 910. For some reason I thought he went back and edited the attack in. Hmm. I guess I should follow a little more closely.

[BoxOfDOG]

Hey that's what I'm trying to figure out.
But I do know that in mafia people tend to target the people that feel the most reactive to negative responses to a mistake/suspicious act.

You've been acting out the most in response to these.
This happened to me the last game, I got super defensive towards what people were saying, and because kept on poking the bear on me to see what would happen. It works.
People are suspicious of you for two reasons:
Your knee jerk reactions
Your low roll

I am a very reactive player when it comes to bad cases on me.

Your assessment is correct as to why people find me scummy.

But what do you think of Voltaire? His roll was even lower than mine, and you seem to be in faust's camp on that.

Ugh. Alright, gimmie a bit.. Going sifting through pages to look at Voltaire posts.

[pingpongsam]

I am a very reactive player when it comes to bad cases on me.

This is paramount to saying that even if you are town you are the weakest link and we should lynch you when we otherwise don't have a clear alternative.

If the case is bad then you can point it out. If the case is good but wrong then that is just the breaks. Getting overly reactive is bad form almost always.

[Beyond Awesome]

Edit: XerxesPraelor has been attacked by the Troll.
Score: 640

Hydrad plays 7
Score: 810 689

This is the edit in question. What do we make of it? "Has been attacked by the Troll"? Does this imply non-mafia interactions? The first reroll didn't have that clause, right?

Also. Damn this is very scary. Can anyone run the numbers that we need now in order to beat the troll?

What do you mean?  This was earlier, we're at 910 now.  And two people can still roll.  Right?

Ok. Did I just miss that Xerxes was attacked by the troll earlier?
Cause you're right that the most recent count shows 910. For some reason I thought he went back and edited the attack in. Hmm. I guess I should follow a little more closely.

He was attacked but then he rolled 11 again.

[BoxOfDOG]

Hey that's what I'm trying to figure out.
But I do know that in mafia people tend to target the people that feel the most reactive to negative responses to a mistake/suspicious act.

You've been acting out the most in response to these.
This happened to me the last game, I got super defensive towards what people were saying, and because kept on poking the bear on me to see what would happen. It works.
People are suspicious of you for two reasons:
Your knee jerk reactions
Your low roll

I am a very reactive player when it comes to bad cases on me.

Your assessment is correct as to why people find me scummy.

But what do you think of Voltaire? His roll was even lower than mine, and you seem to be in faust's camp on that.

Ugh. Alright, gimmie a bit.. Going sifting through pages to look at Voltaire posts.

I didn't have much to look at.

Voltaire gave a low roll, people were like, "Wai?" and he just gonna shrugged it off with "I got a bad result."
Maybe this is really where being a low-reaction player comes in as an advantage?
People backed off because he gave his reason and kept on playing. What Ichi seems to have done is arguing back at the face of people that accused him, constantly trying to convince everyone that it was an honest mistake.

Like an innocent man being jilted out of the social circle because of something he didn't mean to do.

With all this said.. I suggest we kinda get off Ichi's back. See what he has to offer to the game other than defending himself and his roll.

[BoxOfDOG]

Getting overly reactive is bad form almost always.

Dis ^

[mail-mi]

Like an innocent man being jilted out of the social circle because of something he didn't mean to do.

This exactly. I think ichi is pretty town,

also: you should roll to see if I need to roll.

[pingpongsam]

Box says he rolled, we are awaiting results.

[chairs]

[chairs]

Wow. 18 entire pages.. This is embarrassing.

My computer was locked down, so I have to do everything from my Kindle Fire. So expect posts to be kind of awkward and short.
Reading through everything ASAP so I can catch up and see what's going on. (No need to give me an update)

And this, folks, is why you don't watch porn from FBI headquarters.

Ha.. Ha..?

._.
I find that joke very hard to appreciate.

I'm sorry to hear that you think my joke was in bad taste.  It was the second thing that came to mind when you mentioned computer lockdown, and it made me titter, so I thought I'd share.

[Hydrad]

One thing I find interesting is that we have different supplies of dice. (or at least some of us do). Its interesting that box started out with 15 and I'm also curious as to if there is a way to regain dice somehow? because otherwise if this game lasts a while I can see that it will get very difficult for some people.

[Ichimaru Gin]

unvote

Phone posting.  I actually really like Box's playstyle here.

[BoxOfDOG]

Play: 11

[Ichimaru Gin]

Play: 11

Nice! That kills it right?

[Hydrad]

Play: 11

Nice! That kills it right?

Hopefully. Unless scum has even more ways to stop us. Or actually I wonder if its dead right now? or if we have to wait until the end of the day for it to die.

[BoxOfDOG]

Also. It's demanded of me that I say this:
I may be unavailable from 7:00 PM tonight to late 28th/early 29th.

I'm not entirely sure on the situation. I MAY be able to post during this time, but at the same time I wouldn't count on it to much.
Hopefully my contribution to the thread will be enough to impede the incurring wrath of Jimmmmm.

[BoxOfDOG]

Also. It's demanded of me that I say this:
I may be unavailable from 7:00 PM tonight to late 28th/early 29th.

I'm not entirely sure on the situation. I MAY be able to post during this time, but at the same time I wouldn't count on it to much.
Hopefully my contribution to the thread will be enough to impede the incurring wrath of Jimmmmm.

Pacific Daylight Time, to clarify.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Yeah. I was thinking it might be like a hammer, so if at any point we have high enough number to kill it, it dies, but not sure.

So we get a prize or a reward now or I think. Though you're right that scum might still have some tricks. Maybe the troll has a deathrattle 

[pingpongsam]

Last time the monsters didn't die until the day ended iirc.

[Jimmmmm]

BoxOfDog plays an 11.
Score: 1031

[mail-mi]

yay!

[Witherweaver]

RELEASE THE KRAKEN!

[Witherweaver]

I guess nothing happens until the end of the day

I wanted, like, XP and loot.

[mail-mi]

I guess nothing happens until the end of the day

I wanted, like, XP and loot.

...why do you think we'd get XerxesPrealor from the troll?

[Hydrad]

I'm wondering what loot we will get. And if it will be different for everyone?

Like will scum still get good loot even though they lost?

[yuma]

post to avoid a prod. I saw chairs voted for me at one point... what was that about?

[XerxesPraelor]

Well, wasn't the prize last time 1 less NK for scum?

[faust]

Well, Ash is arguing that not rolling is anti-town, and that claiming that you have a strong town PR that requires you to save your dice is a great cover for having a scum PR that uses dice.  I expect Ash to go after Mail-Mi for this regardless of Ash's alignment.  That being said, it feels a little more like WoT Ash (scum) than Innovation Ash (town).

Interesting. At the current moment I feel like a spectator analyzing the situation from afar.. Which isn't a good thing, as far as I can tell.

But I think it's pretty clear where Ash is coming from.
This entire time Mail-mi has had every opportunity to roll his dice, and there was no clear possibility that I would actually log on. Doesn't that come off as a bit strange..?

Well we have plenty of time to sort this out, so not really. mail-mi has like 6 days to roll if he wants.

vote: Box

I get an extremely newbie scum feeling from him.

Ichi going for the easy mislynch.

Tell me, how did scum manage to use three powers while one of them wasn't even playing? Or do you think Box is lying about this?

[faust]

unvote

Phone posting.  I actually really like Box's playstyle here.

Wow. Ichi's play is the very definition of OMGUS. Votes for Box when he suspects him, backs off as soon as Box says we shouldn't lynch Ichi today.

[faust]

I'm wondering what loot we will get. And if it will be different for everyone?

Like will scum still get good loot even though they lost?

Most likely not. OP says Rewards are bad for scum and/or good for town.

[faust]

I actually get a real townie vibe from Box, which kind of scares me, because that never happened before.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I actually get a real townie vibe from Box, which kind of scares me, because that never happened before.

So our reads concur on Box. Wow, do you let like edit out the possibility of coincidence from all of your theories?

You still haven't really answered why you pressured me to tell you how many dice I rolled. And once I did, you just glossed over it. Afterwards, it's been pretty firmly established that its a bad idea to reveal such information--and I am sure that you thought of it before.

Please answer this post instead of indirectly referencing it and not actually addressing what I say.

[faust]

I actually get a real townie vibe from Box, which kind of scares me, because that never happened before.

So our reads concur on Box. Wow, do you let like edit out the possibility of coincidence from all of your theories?

You still haven't really answered why you pressured me to tell you how many dice I rolled. And once I did, you just glossed over it. Afterwards, it's been pretty firmly established that its a bad idea to reveal such information--and I am sure that you thought of it before.

Please answer this post instead of indirectly referencing it and not actually addressing what I say.

Well, of course I could always say "well, but that could just be coincidence". How are we ever going to find scum that way?

When I asked you, you have already said you rolled "a couple" dice. What harm was done by claiming the exact number? I pressured you because I wanted to find out whether you are scum.

[faust]

It's remarkable btw that you blame me for pressuring you into doing something you consider anti-town, when you yourself performed the anti-town action (and even claimed your rolls, which I never even asked). When did you come to realize that this was bad play?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Reread of faust.

#118 His first post. Votes me for my low roll and having nothing else to say. Says Ash is suspicious for playing dice without more forethought and discussion.

#119 Cryptic exchange with Xerxes about him suspecting faust is a particular PR.

#120 faust says that he doesn't understand why people are voting for mail-mi following his claim that its better if he doesn't roll.

#123 Offers up some dice roll statistics, emphasizing how bad my roll was.

#124 Questions PPS about when his supply was depleted.

#126 Votes for Ashersky because he didn't answer faust's question.

#127 Plays a 10

#131 Says Ash has talked more about claiming and less about why discussing dice rolls before rolling them is bad.

#132 Is confused by my (I think) clear question about him assuming that low rolls = scum and once again ignoring that town could have bad luck.

(Not every post of his from here on is covered)

#138 Questions me explicitly about how many dice I rolled and revotes me.

#142 Completely ignores my post and says he feels better about his vote on me.

#152 Pressures me further to tell how many dice I rolled. He says "what are you afraid of" as if there is no danger of scum PR's messing with my supply. He then says this information will help him determine "exactly how likely it is I am telling the truth".

#153 Says he thinks I'm scum because "odds" say I am. This is supremely scummy to me as he is applying generalized statistics to a specific event to which it has little application given the randomness of roles.

#154 Says XP's post is stupid and will be the cause of his death. faust tells him to stop talking about roles.

#156 Plays a 9, says his dice have been rerolled and it's probably scum behind it.

#177 Says he is 95% sure XP is town.

#203 More dice roll statistics. Generically helpful, but also an easy way to get townie points since he's talented with numbers and could easily do the statistics just as well as scum.

#204 Purposefully misinterprets my post to say something it isn't. Dodges my legitimate point and trys to act like I am saying obviously nonsensical things.

#216 Counters WW saying that scum played a 1 on d2 of the previous iteration of this game--cement what we already knew about him that rolls are everything despite their randomness.

#217 Basically ignores Voltaire's point that scum generally played mid-high numbers in the previous game, debunking faust's theory which he has waved around so much and forms the basis of almost all of his reads.

#286 Asks me to explain my vote on him, once again expressing confusion--either true or feigned.

#287 Once again presupposes I'm scum, puts words in my mouth and makes light of my arguments.

#289 Counters liopoil and says that Xerxes is not scum (very confidently)

#295 A reads post.

What really stands out to me is the large amount of pressure he put on me to claim my dice, but when I do, he completely ignores it.
There really isn't a good explanation for this, unless he missed it or something. He writes off pretty much all my posts, and only responds to me in indirect sorts of ways, often with a mocking or satirical tone to his responses.

[faust]

Also, we had summed up some reasons in Dice Mafia I for why it is good to lynch low-rollers. I couldn't find the post, so I'll just paraphrase.

1) Scum doesn't want us to beat the monsters, so low rolls are more likely to come from scum.
2) If a townie played a low roll, that means their other rolls were also low, which means they don't have a high-value die stored and are thus less useful for town.
3) If scum plays a low roll, that means they're more likely to have a high roll stored for later use against town. So lynching scum that rolled low is of higher priority than lynching scum that rolled high.
4) Low rolls from town also imply a small number of dice rolled. A small number of dice rolled implies that the player wanted to save dice for later, which implies he doesn't have too many of them. Lynching town with few dice is better than lynching town with a lot of dice.
5) Lynching a low-roller encourages scum to roll high, which is a good thing.

So Ichi, are you saying you disagree with all of these points?

PPE: Ichi's reread.

[faust]

#217 Basically ignores Voltaire's point that scum generally played mid-high numbers in the previous game, debunking faust's theory which he has waved around so much and forms the basis of almost all of his reads.

Just saying, this is in no way true.

My read on Xerxes isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on PPS isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on Hydrad isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on BA isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on Box isn't derived from dice rolls.

[Ichimaru Gin]

#217 Basically ignores Voltaire's point that scum generally played mid-high numbers in the previous game, debunking faust's theory which he has waved around so much and forms the basis of almost all of his reads.

Just saying, this is in no way true.

My read on Xerxes isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on PPS isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on Hydrad isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on BA isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on Box isn't derived from dice rolls.

How many of those reads are null or incredibly light?

[faust]

#217 Basically ignores Voltaire's point that scum generally played mid-high numbers in the previous game, debunking faust's theory which he has waved around so much and forms the basis of almost all of his reads.

Just saying, this is in no way true.

My read on Xerxes isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on PPS isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on Hydrad isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on BA isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on Box isn't derived from dice rolls.

How many of those reads are null or incredibly light?

Zero to one.

[faust]

#217 Basically ignores Voltaire's point that scum generally played mid-high numbers in the previous game, debunking faust's theory which he has waved around so much and forms the basis of almost all of his reads.

Just saying, this is in no way true.

My read on Xerxes isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on PPS isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on Hydrad isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on BA isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on Box isn't derived from dice rolls.

How many of those reads are null or incredibly light?

Zero to one.

And of course, you'd know that had you actually reread me instead of filtered out stuff you can use against me.

[Ichimaru Gin]

What is your explanation for ignoring my claim of how many dice I rolled and the results I got?

[Ichimaru Gin]

#217 Basically ignores Voltaire's point that scum generally played mid-high numbers in the previous game, debunking faust's theory which he has waved around so much and forms the basis of almost all of his reads.

Just saying, this is in no way true.

My read on Xerxes isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on PPS isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on Hydrad isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on BA isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on Box isn't derived from dice rolls.

How many of those reads are null or incredibly light?

Zero to one.

And of course, you'd know that had you actually reread me instead of filtered out stuff you can use against me.

AKA evidence?

You'd probably call it something else though.

[faust]

#217 Basically ignores Voltaire's point that scum generally played mid-high numbers in the previous game, debunking faust's theory which he has waved around so much and forms the basis of almost all of his reads.

Just saying, this is in no way true.

My read on Xerxes isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on PPS isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on Hydrad isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on BA isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on Box isn't derived from dice rolls.

How many of those reads are null or incredibly light?

Zero to one.

And of course, you'd know that had you actually reread me instead of filtered out stuff you can use against me.

AKA evidence?

You'd probably call it something else though.

Am I right that this is you confirming that you didn't reread me to find out whether I'm scum, but only to convince others that I'm scum?

[Ichimaru Gin]

#217 Basically ignores Voltaire's point that scum generally played mid-high numbers in the previous game, debunking faust's theory which he has waved around so much and forms the basis of almost all of his reads.

Just saying, this is in no way true.

My read on Xerxes isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on PPS isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on Hydrad isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on BA isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on Box isn't derived from dice rolls.

How many of those reads are null or incredibly light?

Zero to one.

And of course, you'd know that had you actually reread me instead of filtered out stuff you can use against me.

AKA evidence?

You'd probably call it something else though.

Am I right that this is you confirming that you didn't reread me to find out whether I'm scum, but only to convince others that I'm scum?

Am I right that this is you confirming that you manage to twist, misinterpret and evade virtually everything I say?

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, had a busy day today. It's 1AM here, so I'm pretty tired, so I'm not going to comment on the back and forth exchange between Ichi and Faust going on right now, but I have been giving a lot of thought about mail-mi all day. And, the more I think about it, the more concerned I am like Ash. Now, maybe, I am just being on the paranoid side. But, I think it is better to be a bit paranoid than not paranoid. But, Ash brings up a good point that if mail-mi is scum there is no telling what his power is and what trouble it can cause us later on down the road. On top of that, mail-mi even tells us that his power is anti-town. I'm not saying we should lynch mail-mi, but as town are we 100% sure it is in our best interest to not have mail-mi roll even though the troll has been defeated. Is the "supposed" benefit really going to be worth it. I honestly don't know. I feel like we might be taking an unnecessary risk here though.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also faust. I realize that the argument between us is likely moving further into hostile and probably less productive territory.

I am incredibly frustrated, but I am not sure whether you are purposefully misinterpreting me, or we simply aren't getting our points across to each other. You have marked me as scum, since your very first post, and that is very difficult for me accept that you haven't given me a chance just because I rolled poorly and was forced to play a low dice. I understand that your read on me has evolved into more than that and includes other information, but your initial post and vote was based off of my roll and lack of contribution.

It is very difficult for me to think about other aspects of a game when I feel tunneled by someone. You must know that by riding me as hard and consistently as you have, it makes it nearly impossible for me to not respond to you and attempt to defend myself.

Perhaps the only way to solve this is for me to simply stop defending myself, as it apparently only leads to greater misunderstanding and frustration (on my part).

At any rate, it's 1 AM here as well. I guess I'll go to bed now. I really want to put in a caveat here predicting how you will misinterpret this to try and make me look scummy, but I won't.

[chairs]

post to avoid a prod. I saw chairs voted for me at one point... what was that about?

Was just doing a stream of consciousness post regarding the game.  One thing that came up was how scary it is to have you as scum in any of these games, because generally you're considered a good protection target and so it's not instantly "he's scum" if you don't die during the night.  Didn't I change my vote in that same post?

[faust]

Also faust. I realize that the argument between us is likely moving further into hostile and probably less productive territory.

I am incredibly frustrated, but I am not sure whether you are purposefully misinterpreting me, or we simply aren't getting our points across to each other. You have marked me as scum, since your very first post, and that is very difficult for me accept that you haven't given me a chance just because I rolled poorly and was forced to play a low dice. I understand that your read on me has evolved into more than that and includes other information, but your initial post and vote was based off of my roll and lack of contribution.

It is very difficult for me to think about other aspects of a game when I feel tunneled by someone. You must know that by riding me as hard and consistently as you have, it makes it nearly impossible for me to not respond to you and attempt to defend myself.

Perhaps the only way to solve this is for me to simply stop defending myself, as it apparently only leads to greater misunderstanding and frustration (on my part).

At any rate, it's 1 AM here as well. I guess I'll go to bed now. I really want to put in a caveat here predicting how you will misinterpret this to try and make me look scummy, but I won't.

"I really want to put a caveat here, but I won't, so here's a caveat."

More seriously: I like this tone better. If you felt I was being hostile, then I am sorry.

It was very interesting that you answered most of my posts, except the one where I explained why it is good to lynch low-rollers. What do you have to say about that?

[mail-mi]

mail-mi even tells us that his power is anti-town.

Never said that. You're probably thinking of PPS, who did say that.

[yuma]

I don't find Ichi scummy for playing a low dice. That happens unfortunately. Last game the only time dice rolling was reflective of alignment was chairs playing a 1... (perhaps the only scum slip that was legitimately a scumslip)

I actually think a huge mass claim in terms of powers/dice/rolls/stored dice/etc could be largely beneficial to us. It would give mafia info yes. But it would allow us to best coordinate how to defeat monsters, allow us to force mafia to be more or less truthful about their dice and what they are doing with them (maybe catch them in a lie in regard to what they are doing...) and coordinate powers better that we have as town. Yes downside is mafia would know what we are doing, be better able to determine kills and the like on powerful roles as is the usual with mass claiming... But I think it is very likely worth it.

[pingpongsam]

mail-mi even tells us that his power is anti-town.

Never said that. You're probably thinking of PPS, who did say that.

Quote me. I don't recall this being said by anyone, least of all me.

I do recall stating that I think I'd rather not have a super town power at the risk of possibly receiving a super scum power instead when having a likely VT/Goon power is an option without a potential mislynch.

With the troll defeated a single dice roll and play is all that is required and could even seal the deal from scum possibly further altering our rolls and leaving us with an alive troll.

[yuma]

Oh yeah, I got an anti-town power.

?

[Witherweaver]

mail-mi even tells us that his power is anti-town.

Never said that. You're probably thinking of PPS, who did say that.

Quote me. I don't recall this being said by anyone, least of all me.

I do recall stating that I think I'd rather not have a super town power at the risk of possibly receiving a super scum power instead when having a likely VT/Goon power is an option without a potential mislynch.

With the troll defeated a single dice roll and play is all that is required and could even seal the deal from scum possibly further altering our rolls and leaving us with an alive troll.

You said it about your own power, not Mail-Mi's.

[pingpongsam]

mail-mi even tells us that his power is anti-town.

Never said that. You're probably thinking of PPS, who did say that.

Quote me. I don't recall this being said by anyone, least of all me.

I do recall stating that I think I'd rather not have a super town power at the risk of possibly receiving a super scum power instead when having a likely VT/Goon power is an option without a potential mislynch.

With the troll defeated a single dice roll and play is all that is required and could even seal the deal from scum possibly further altering our rolls and leaving us with an alive troll.

You said it about your own power, not Mail-Mi's.

Oh, yeah, okay... that is correct. Unless we identify a scum for certain going into a night (unlikely) I will not be using my power.

[Beyond Awesome]

mail-mi even tells us that his power is anti-town.

Never said that. You're probably thinking of PPS, who did say that.

Sorry, that does seem like that was the case. I don't know why I thought it was you that said that.

Either way, what I have said about Mail-Mi stands. We know there are only 3 mafia. Is it really worth allowing Mail-Mi to power up even if he is town? Do we really need his power when we don't even know what that is? If he is scum, there is no telling what his power allows him to do if he powers up. So, I am agreeing with the points Ash brought up earlier. I do feel allowing him to power up might be an unnecessary gambit for town.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also faust. I realize that the argument between us is likely moving further into hostile and probably less productive territory.

I am incredibly frustrated, but I am not sure whether you are purposefully misinterpreting me, or we simply aren't getting our points across to each other. You have marked me as scum, since your very first post, and that is very difficult for me accept that you haven't given me a chance just because I rolled poorly and was forced to play a low dice. I understand that your read on me has evolved into more than that and includes other information, but your initial post and vote was based off of my roll and lack of contribution.

It is very difficult for me to think about other aspects of a game when I feel tunneled by someone. You must know that by riding me as hard and consistently as you have, it makes it nearly impossible for me to not respond to you and attempt to defend myself.

Perhaps the only way to solve this is for me to simply stop defending myself, as it apparently only leads to greater misunderstanding and frustration (on my part).

At any rate, it's 1 AM here as well. I guess I'll go to bed now. I really want to put in a caveat here predicting how you will misinterpret this to try and make me look scummy, but I won't.

"I really want to put a caveat here, but I won't, so here's a caveat."

More seriously: I like this tone better. If you felt I was being hostile, then I am sorry.

It was very interesting that you answered most of my posts, except the one where I explained why it is good to lynch low-rollers. What do you have to say about that?

I agree with your points. And, it is true that town who has gotten bad luck is less useful given they don't have high stored rolls, etc. It didn't really touch on PR's, which I think is important to factor in though. I mean, I know that the number someone rolls isn't the only thing driving your reads, but in the WIFOM that rolls are, you choose one path, while I still see it as WIFOM. Perhaps that is because I am town who has gotten unlucky and persecuted for it. I might feel differently if I had rolled a good number and saw other people playing low ones (possibly your viewpoint).

So yuma wants a massclaim? I feel against that at this point. It seems like scum have PR's that can mess with people and they can use the day's monster to attack people--and perhaps other things as well. And since we don't really know what PR's are possible or likely or really anything, I feel like the info wouldn't actually help us that much.

[Witherweaver]

I would oppose claiming, as I think in this particular case it would be a hindrance. 

[pingpongsam]

I think D1 mass-claiming is practically always a bad idea. I become more open to the idea as the game progresses and even more so when a scum or 2 have already been eliminated.

Suggesting a D1 mass-claim is scummy 2nd only to suggesting no-lynch (which I ma not sure is even possible, must check after this post).

[pingpongsam]

No lynch is an option (that I absolutely am not suggesting for consideration) that forces scum to attempt a NK following that day.

[chairs]

How close are we to Evening?  Can we have mail-mi set a Conditional Order in his QT to roll if the target gets un-met just prior to Evening, to avoid any last-second shenanigans from Mafia?

[Hydrad]

How close are we to Evening?  Can we have mail-mi set a Conditional Order in his QT to roll if the target gets un-met just prior to Evening, to avoid any last-second shenanigans from Mafia?

Actually thats a good point. are scum allowed to wait 5 minutes before the night ends and get rid of our roles? will we have time to reroll if that happens as I don't think we should be expected to refresh the page constantly right before night ends.

[Ichimaru Gin]

How close are we to Evening?  Can we have mail-mi set a Conditional Order in his QT to roll if the target gets un-met just prior to Evening, to avoid any last-second shenanigans from Mafia?

Actually thats a good point. are scum allowed to wait 5 minutes before the night ends and get rid of our roles? will we have time to reroll if that happens as I don't think we should be expected to refresh the page constantly right before night ends.

Yeah, that would seem pretty unfair. Did anything like that happen in the previous game? Where even when the target was reached, scum could still change the numbers and have the troll still live?

[Witherweaver]

From last vote count:

Evening begins on July 1 at 4pm forum time.

[Ichimaru Gin]

From last vote count:

Evening begins on July 1 at 4pm forum time.

Do we get the prize at evening or at the end of the (official) day?

[Witherweaver]

I kind of doubt a conditional order would be allowed.  That seems to bridge the gap between players doing stuff and mods doing stuff.

[Witherweaver]

From last vote count:

Evening begins on July 1 at 4pm forum time.

Do we get the prize at evening or at the end of the (official) day?

Why does it matter?

[Ichimaru Gin]

From last vote count:

Evening begins on July 1 at 4pm forum time.

Do we get the prize at evening or at the end of the (official) day?

Why does it matter?

Well if we get it earlier, wouldn't we have time to discuss it and/or use it?

[Witherweaver]

From last vote count:

Evening begins on July 1 at 4pm forum time.

Do we get the prize at evening or at the end of the (official) day?

Why does it matter?

Well if we get it earlier, wouldn't we have time to discuss it and/or use it?

More appropriately: does the knowledge of that, now, matter?

[Ichimaru Gin]

From last vote count:

Evening begins on July 1 at 4pm forum time.

Do we get the prize at evening or at the end of the (official) day?

Why does it matter?

Well if we get it earlier, wouldn't we have time to discuss it and/or use it?

More appropriately: does the knowledge of that, now, matter?

Well are you keeping common knowledge from me?

I don't know that it is that important. But it would in the sense of what I mentioned. chairs and BA are concerned about scum pulling a last minute pre-evening ploy. If we get the prize as soon as evening comes, it will definitely impact the rest of the day, so it is important.

From your tone, it sounds like you're seeing me as "scum trying to plan something or something". But seriously, if it was that important for me to know this, I'd just go check myself, but it's easier for me to ask.

[Ichimaru Gin]

And it is at "the end of the day".

Now my plans are foiled!! No, darn you WW!!

[Witherweaver]

And it is at "the end of the day".

Now my plans are foiled!! No, darn you WW!!

You're exaggerating your defensive meta so much that you're creating strawman attacks against you to defend.

[Ichimaru Gin]

And it is at "the end of the day".

Now my plans are foiled!! No, darn you WW!!

You're exaggerating your defensive meta so much that you're creating strawman attacks against you to defend.

I'm trying to make light of the very suspicious tone in your last posts.

[Hydrad]

Personally I feel like gin has been getting slightly unfair treatment towards being scum. From what I have seen i'm certainly keeping in mind that he could be scum but at this point it almost seems like people are looking for the smallest possible reason that gin might be scum and not paying much attention to others.

Now this doesn't mean that gin is innocent I'm just saying I think we are ganging up a bit to much with such little evidence.

But at the same time i realize in this game you have to take risks and sometimes lynch people even if you don't know if they are scum or not. I just wanted to put in my opinion on this situation

[Beyond Awesome]

Personally I feel like gin has been getting slightly unfair treatment towards being scum. From what I have seen i'm certainly keeping in mind that he could be scum but at this point it almost seems like people are looking for the smallest possible reason that gin might be scum and not paying much attention to others.

Now this doesn't mean that gin is innocent I'm just saying I think we are ganging up a bit to much with such little evidence.

But at the same time i realize in this game you have to take risks and sometimes lynch people even if you don't know if they are scum or not. I just wanted to put in my opinion on this situation

Who are some of the other players that stand out to you as potential scum?

[Hydrad]

Personally I feel like gin has been getting slightly unfair treatment towards being scum. From what I have seen i'm certainly keeping in mind that he could be scum but at this point it almost seems like people are looking for the smallest possible reason that gin might be scum and not paying much attention to others.

Now this doesn't mean that gin is innocent I'm just saying I think we are ganging up a bit to much with such little evidence.

But at the same time i realize in this game you have to take risks and sometimes lynch people even if you don't know if they are scum or not. I just wanted to put in my opinion on this situation

Who are some of the other players that stand out to you as potential scum?

Hmm i'm really bad at this and will admit gin is one of the top of my list. I also don't feel 100% safe about archer? I don't know why i just get a feeling from him. The last one I feel is volt, I feel like hes scum and is trying to not draw any attention to himself.

Those are probably the top 3 on my list but I don't have any real reasons why I think that.

I was just saying above it seems like some people have decided that gin is scum and aren't giving him a chance at all. Which may be the correct thing to do who knows.

[liopoil]

Hydrad, you hedge a lot in your posts. By that I mean you emphasize how you really don't know. A lot of players do this at the beginning, and it's fine. But you don't need to say it over and over again, we know you don't know because none of us know! (except for scum). You say that people aren't giving ichimaru gin a chance, and that they have decided he is scum. None of them are absolutely sure ichi is scum, they just think he is the most likely to be scum, so they are voting for him. Just because they don't voice their doubt doesn't mean they don't have it. We've all been wrong plenty of times.

Personally, I think that in terms of rolling low, Voltaire just has to be scummier than Ichimaru. In terms of other reasons for suspecting ichimaru, I don't really agree. But I have not formed all my reads yet, so we'll see what I think once I do. When will that be? Sometime this weekend.

[Hydrad]

Ah thanks for telling me that

[ashersky]

vote: liopoil

[Voltaire]

I'm still here, just very busy recently. I like both lio and IG but I want to re-read to make sure that makes sense.

I liked lio more before ash voted for him.

[ashersky]

I'm still here, just very busy recently. I like both lio and IG but I want to re-read to make sure that makes sense.

I liked lio more before ash voted for him.

You need to get over your bias against me.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Volt actually seems more like scum!Volt here. (And it's not because he suspects me in an OMGUS'y sort of way--though that is suspicious).

I just don't see the same level of analysis and participation as town!Volt gives. He reads more like he did in Greater Idea to me.

[Voltaire]

I'm still here, just very busy recently. I like both lio and IG but I want to re-read to make sure that makes sense.

I liked lio more before ash voted for him.

You need to get over your bias against me.

Never.

I see I am picking up lots of scum heat (though no votes? worth noting) for meta reasons. This is what happens when I post less, and it's happened before. It's reasonable but wrong.

[ashersky]

I'm still here, just very busy recently. I like both lio and IG but I want to re-read to make sure that makes sense.

I liked lio more before ash voted for him.

You need to get over your bias against me.

Never.

I see I am picking up lots of scum heat (though no votes? worth noting) for meta reasons. This is what happens when I post less, and it's happened before. It's reasonable but wrong.

You realize I can use your bias to great effect as a way to protect scum partners, right?  Given you always award town points to anyone I suspect/vote for, it's pretty simple.

[Voltaire]

You realize I can use your bias to great effect as a way to protect scum partners, right?  Given you always award town points to anyone I suspect/vote for, it's pretty simple.

Trust me, I know.

[liopoil]

Why are you voting for me, ash?

[liopoil]

At least you aren't uselessly refusing to vote for anyone besides mail-mi today anymore.

[ashersky]

Why are you voting for me, ash?

Partner coaching disguised as friendly veteran advice to a newbie; or, fake friendly veteran advice to a newbie to give his feel good vibes and town cred about you.

[ashersky]

At least you aren't uselessly refusing to vote for anyone besides mail-mi today anymore.

I still want to lynch mail-mi.

I think mail-mi/PPS/liopoil or mail-mi/liopoil/hydrad at this point.

[liopoil]

Why are you voting for me, ash?

Partner coaching disguised as friendly veteran advice to a newbie; or, fake friendly veteran advice to a newbie to give his feel good vibes and town cred about you.

Or friendly veteran advice? I don't see how any of those can be seen as more likely than the others. And I believe that advice must have been helpful. If I hadn't said it, I bet someone else would eventually. It can't be anything but a null read.

PPE: ouch, you caught the scumteam!

[liopoil]

So, the three people voting for me (have any of them moved their vote? I don't think so) are voltaire, yuma, and ashersky. Each voted me in a post saying simply, "vote liopoil" with the syntax and bold and everything. Voltaire and ashersky explained their vote when I asked, I replied to that and neither have responded yet (although to be fair, ash hasn't had much time yet). Yuma I didn't ask because I assumed they were the same reasons as Voltaire, and he is also V/LA. The votes seem to be sort of policy votes, as in, "You weren't aware that it had been editted into the OP that there are exactly 3 mafia, so I vote for you" and "You gave advice to a new player, so I vote for you".

What's my point? Well, it is tempting to suspect them for this, but in this case I don't think it is necessarily scummy. Voltaire has brought it up a few times, ashersky already had his vote somewhere and was pushing it and just moved it. (Why did he move it if he still prefers lynching mail-mi? I guess just to express his suspicion of me? That's fair.) Yuma is V/LA. So they all have excuses. So I think what I draw from this is just frustration at being voted without explanation, and having to press people to provide flawed reasoning.

I don't see myself at much of a risk of actually being lynched yet (I expect some if not all of the 3 will see the light and move their vote), but if I am lynched by votes stating nothing but "vote liopoil", I will not be happy.

If any of the three I find suspicious for their vote, it is Voltaire. Volt has continued to mention his suspicion of me without further elaborating or pushing it - simply putting my name out there with one or two others, as if trying to see if there is support for my lynch before committing to it.

Yuma I would only find suspicious because usually he is right about me. Other than that it is just null - he probably just saw that post, got a scummy vibe off it and voted on it, because he didn't have time to look at everything.

Ash's vote I don't put any stock in either way at all, ash just votes on whims for stuff then combines them and calls a scumteam. As scum or town.

[ashersky]

So, the three people voting for me (have any of them moved their vote? I don't think so) are voltaire, yuma, and ashersky. Each voted me in a post saying simply, "vote liopoil" with the syntax and bold and everything. Voltaire and ashersky explained their vote when I asked, I replied to that and neither have responded yet (although to be fair, ash hasn't had much time yet). Yuma I didn't ask because I assumed they were the same reasons as Voltaire, and he is also V/LA. The votes seem to be sort of policy votes, as in, "You weren't aware that it had been editted into the OP that there are exactly 3 mafia, so I vote for you" and "You gave advice to a new player, so I vote for you".

What's my point? Well, it is tempting to suspect them for this, but in this case I don't think it is necessarily scummy. Voltaire has brought it up a few times, ashersky already had his vote somewhere and was pushing it and just moved it. (Why did he move it if he still prefers lynching mail-mi? I guess just to express his suspicion of me? That's fair.) Yuma is V/LA. So they all have excuses. So I think what I draw from this is just frustration at being voted without explanation, and having to press people to provide flawed reasoning.

I don't see myself at much of a risk of actually being lynched yet (I expect some if not all of the 3 will see the light and move their vote), but if I am lynched by votes stating nothing but "vote liopoil", I will not be happy.

If any of the three I find suspicious for their vote, it is Voltaire. Volt has continued to mention his suspicion of me without further elaborating or pushing it - simply putting my name out there with one or two others, as if trying to see if there is support for my lynch before committing to it.

Yuma I would only find suspicious because usually he is right about me. Other than that it is just null - he probably just saw that post, got a scummy vibe off it and voted on it, because he didn't have time to look at everything.

Ash's vote I don't put any stock in either way at all, ash just votes on whims for stuff then combines them and calls a scumteam. As scum or town.

I think I agree with all this here.  I bolded especially relevant things.

It's also a super super scummy post.  Calm, collected, clear.  You are now the Hannibal Lector of Mafia.  Scary.  Like you are going to eat my brains or something.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: liopoil

[Hydrad]

Vote: Voltaire

[Beyond Awesome]

Can we get a vote count? Thanks

[XerxesPraelor]

vote: liopoil

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. Cmon guys. That seems pretty mean.
I haven't played with lio in a while--and his picture makes me feel like he's a different person.

Seriously though, it's like "nah nah, we'll show you".

How about vote: Voltaire for basically saying "yes you are correct, but I'm not scum". He was interested that people didn't vote for him, well in this wake of explanationless votes, I'm voting Volt.

[XerxesPraelor]

I'm also fine with vote: voltaire. Looks like lots of people are seeing the same things I was.

[XerxesPraelor]

Also, I love watchtower's art more than I like a random picture of a red tram. (though that's nice too)

[XerxesPraelor]

#217 Basically ignores Voltaire's point that scum generally played mid-high numbers in the previous game, debunking faust's theory which he has waved around so much and forms the basis of almost all of his reads.

Just saying, this is in no way true.

My read on Xerxes isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on PPS isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on Hydrad isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on BA isn't derived from dice rolls.
My read on Box isn't derived from dice rolls.

How many of those reads are null or incredibly light?

Zero to one.

And of course, you'd know that had you actually reread me instead of filtered out stuff you can use against me.

AKA evidence?

You'd probably call it something else though.

Am I right that this is you confirming that you didn't reread me to find out whether I'm scum, but only to convince others that I'm scum?

Am I right that this is you confirming that you manage to twist, misinterpret and evade virtually everything I say?

Also, this exchange gives me a towny feeling on both of them.

[Voltaire]

How about vote: Voltaire for basically saying "yes you are correct, but I'm not scum". He was interested that people didn't vote for him, well in this wake of explanationless votes, I'm voting Volt.

This is not what I said, please re-read it.

I acknowledged that I was different - I haven't been as uber-involved as I normally am D1. This does not make me scum. It makes me busy.

This has happened before - the newbie game, I think? - and I was found scummy for it then, too. Look, I get that HEY VOLT IS DIFFERENT THAT WHAT I THINK HE IS THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLANATION THAN ALIGNMENT is a natural thought, but really? You can't look deeper?

There is nothing in lio I see that requires a stance, other than on me. Seriously. That's pretty not ok.

[faust]

I don't find Ichi scummy for playing a low dice. That happens unfortunately. Last game the only time dice rolling was reflective of alignment was chairs playing a 1... (perhaps the only scum slip that was legitimately a scumslip)

I actually think a huge mass claim in terms of powers/dice/rolls/stored dice/etc could be largely beneficial to us. It would give mafia info yes. But it would allow us to best coordinate how to defeat monsters, allow us to force mafia to be more or less truthful about their dice and what they are doing with them (maybe catch them in a lie in regard to what they are doing...) and coordinate powers better that we have as town. Yes downside is mafia would know what we are doing, be better able to determine kills and the like on powerful roles as is the usual with mass claiming... But I think it is very likely worth it.

Do think Ichi is scummy for reasons other than his low roll?

Not sure about mass claiming, since there might be powers unrelated to monster fighting and instead helping us to find scum, and we don't want these outed.

[faust]

At least you aren't uselessly refusing to vote for anyone besides mail-mi today anymore.

I still want to lynch mail-mi.

I think mail-mi/PPS/liopoil or mail-mi/liopoil/hydrad at this point.

I think your reads are very off. All of the people your listing are town reads for me, what makes them suspicious (well, I know your point about mail-mi, but the rest?)

[faust]

Really don't like the liopoil wagon. Voltaire I feel better about, but right now, there's just more that's scummy about Ichi. THis could just come from Voltaire not having as much content, so there's not as much to find him scummy for.

[ashersky]

At least you aren't uselessly refusing to vote for anyone besides mail-mi today anymore.

I still want to lynch mail-mi.

I think mail-mi/PPS/liopoil or mail-mi/liopoil/hydrad at this point.

I think your reads are very off. All of the people your listing are town reads for me, what makes them suspicious (well, I know your point about mail-mi, but the rest?)

Go back a page for my liopoil case.

PPS is a weak case based on his crazy mail-mi defense/tie.  It's right before I call him partners.

Hydrad is possibly liopoil's partner in one of the scenarios.  He was hedging hardcore, too.

[liopoil]

What the hell? two more votes without explanation, right after I make a post about how it's wierd and sort of frustrating that all 3 of my voters voted with nothing else in the post besides voting for me? This is absurd.

[liopoil]

I haven't played with lio in a while--and his picture makes me feel like he's a different person.

I haven't played with anyone in several months! I probably am a bit of a different player now.

vote: liopoil

Ok. Cmon guys. That seems pretty mean.
I haven't played with lio in a while--and his picture makes me feel like he's a different person.

Seriously though, it's like "nah nah, we'll show you".

How about vote: Voltaire for basically saying "yes you are correct, but I'm not scum". He was interested that people didn't vote for him, well in this wake of explanationless votes, I'm voting Volt.

I'm also fine with vote: voltaire. Looks like lots of people are seeing the same things I was.

These three posts happened in order. It's the second time that XP has voted me and then switched right away. This vote for me was right after a couple other people voted for me, and then this vote on voltaire came right after a couple of people voted for him! I still find XP's actions really scummy, despite the interaction with faust.

[liopoil]

I think I agree with all this here.  I bolded especially relevant things.

It's also a super super scummy post.  Calm, collected, clear.  You are now the Hannibal Lector of Mafia.  Scary.  Like you are going to eat my brains or something.

Are you joking??? Trying to goad me into reacting or something? Well, okay, I will. I make a good post here (you essentially say so yourself) in that I make good points and deliver the message well. This makes me a scummy serial killer who will eat your brains? If I wrote bad posts, would you find that townie? Nope, you'd probably find that scummy, and not without reason because scum don't make good points! It seems anything I do will be interpreted as scum. And so far, all three of the posts I have drawn suspicion for have been pro-town posts! The one about the number of scum was pro-town because it let me know that it had been added to the OP (and if it hadn't been, it would have been a very good question to ask faust). The one helping Hydrad wasn't exactly protown because we have no idea what the alignment of Hydrad is, but it is still a good thing to say in order to integrate a new player into the community. I'm sure I can find posts of people in other games doing similar things. Lastly, this post above was pro-town because it was a good post, if I do say so myself.

[liopoil]

Why people continue to think it's okay to vote without explanation mystifies me. I'm sure it was never okay in any of the other games I've played.

There is nothing in lio I see that requires a stance, other than on me. Seriously. That's pretty not ok.

What does this mean?

[liopoil]

At least you aren't uselessly refusing to vote for anyone besides mail-mi today anymore.

I still want to lynch mail-mi.

I think mail-mi/PPS/liopoil or mail-mi/liopoil/hydrad at this point.

I think your reads are very off. All of the people your listing are town reads for me, what makes them suspicious (well, I know your point about mail-mi, but the rest?)

Go back a page for my liopoil case.

PPS is a weak case based on his crazy mail-mi defense/tie.  It's right before I call him partners.

Hydrad is possibly liopoil's partner in one of the scenarios.  He was hedging hardcore, too.

Don't bother going back a page for his liopoil case, you won't find anything of note.

Has anyone ever actually coached their scumbuddy in-thread before?

[Ichimaru Gin]

How about vote: Voltaire for basically saying "yes you are correct, but I'm not scum". He was interested that people didn't vote for him, well in this wake of explanationless votes, I'm voting Volt.

This is not what I said, please re-read it.

I acknowledged that I was different - I haven't been as uber-involved as I normally am D1. This does not make me scum. It makes me busy.

This has happened before - the newbie game, I think? - and I was found scummy for it then, too. Look, I get that HEY VOLT IS DIFFERENT THAT WHAT I THINK HE IS THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLANATION THAN ALIGNMENT is a natural thought, but really? You can't look deeper?

There is nothing in lio I see that requires a stance, other than on me. Seriously. That's pretty not ok.

I can Aknowledge that you have IRL reasons for being busy. Still, I just get the same feeling from you. I mean, you rolled low--and a lot of people see that as scummy. So it's not just that. And you pretending it is feels scummy. This game has developed very strangely to me--with a lot of odd wagons such as mine and now lio's.

I too am confused by the last sentence in this post.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Why people continue to think it's okay to vote without explanation mystifies me. I'm sure it was never okay in any of the other games I've played.

There is nothing in lio I see that requires a stance, other than on me. Seriously. That's pretty not ok.

What does this mean?

Yeah. Why is this ok? Is it under the guise of a joke?

Oh. lio legitimately points out how people are voting for him sans explanation--let's all do exactly that!

[pingpongsam]

I voted for lio because I mostly agree with ashersky's case and to see if it took off because if it did he was likely town. I felt leaving out the explanation served this purpose as well as did that thing we do when people speak as if they are above vote in the game.

Finally, I take deep exception to the idea that scum do not make good points. When I am scum I am certain to make good points to improve my chances of survival.

[liopoil]

I voted for lio because I mostly agree with ashersky's case and to see if it took off because if it did he was likely town. I felt leaving out the explanation served this purpose as well as did that thing we do when people speak as if they are above vote in the game.

Finally, I take deep exception to the idea that scum do not make good points. When I am scum I am certain to make good points to improve my chances of survival.

No way can you say that I spoke as if I was above vote in this game. I spoke as if I was above being voted without explanation, which I as well as everyone else in the game is.

Leaving out the explanation served no purpose.

The points that scum make are by definition bad because they are wrong. All points scum makes are for the point of their own survival. Of course scum will try to make points that appear to be good, but deep down they are bad points. Him thinking that my point was good means either:

a) I am town and made a good point.
OR
b) I am scum and made a bad point that was convincing enough to make ash think it was a good point.

Do you have a reason to think b is more likely than a? Does ashersky? No, neither of you do, and that's why the case is bad.

[pingpongsam]

We can agree to disagree. I have purposely kept Town alive by playing up the real possibility someone must be town. Every point I made was perfectly valid because the person was town. If you think Mafia never play against their win on then you are at kindergarten level mafia.

I recall winning a game by never not voting a towny right up until the end.

[pingpongsam]

Right now I suspect scum ashersky surprise bussed scum liopoil. I would have liked to have seen the wagon grow further.

[liopoil]

We can agree to disagree. I have purposely kept Town alive by playing up the real possibility someone must be town. Every point I made was perfectly valid because the person was town. If you think Mafia never play against their win on then you are at kindergarten level mafia.

I recall winning a game by never not voting a towny right up until the end.

Right, of course, but all of those things still have the long term motive of a scum victory, that is, keeping at least one scum alive while killing the town.

[pingpongsam]

I think I double negatived myself. The game I referenced I never voted for a towny except for the final mislynch vote. Throughout the game I consistently voted my scum partners.

[liopoil]

Right now I suspect scum ashersky surprise bussed scum liopoil. I would have liked to have seen the wagon grow further.

What are you talking about? Ashersky was the third vote on my wagon, you were the 4th, and XP was briefly the 5th.

[pingpongsam]

We can agree to disagree. I have purposely kept Town alive by playing up the real possibility someone must be town. Every point I made was perfectly valid because the person was town. If you think Mafia never play against their win on then you are at kindergarten level mafia.

I recall winning a game by never not voting a towny right up until the end.

Right, of course, but all of those things still have the long term motive of a scum victory, that is, keeping at least one scum alive while killing the town.

But it does not make good points be bad ones.

[pingpongsam]

Right now I suspect scum ashersky surprise bussed scum liopoil. I would have liked to have seen the wagon grow further.

What are you talking about? Ashersky was the third vote on my wagon, you were the 4th, and XP was briefly the 5th.

L-1 would have been most interesting, I would be willing to bet the final vote was scum too.

[liopoil]

....it's been 12 hours since your vote, that still may happen, although hopefully it won't.

By good point/bad point I mean in the interests of town.

[yuma]

vote: pps above posts are scummy... (how's that for an explanation?)

[pingpongsam]

vote: pps above posts are scummy... (how's that for an explanation?)

Awesome because you just elevated yourself to obvtown afaiac.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.5

Ichimaru Gin (2): faust, Beyond Awesome
Beyond Awesome (1): Witherweaver
Voltaire (4): mail-mi, Hydrad, Ichimaru Gin, XerxesPraelor
liopoil (3): Voltaire, ashersky, pingpongsam,
pingpongsam (1): yuma

not voting (3): chairs, BoxOfDog, liopoil

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 1 at 4pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 3 at 4pm forum time.

Target: 1000
Score: 1031

[Beyond Awesome]

Hmm, I just did another reread of the entire thread. I now have a lot more null reads than before.

I'm not sure about all the heat lio is getting. I'm just getting a null read on him. Although, I don't find him townie really.

Ichi still doesn't seem to have changed much. I would say there is a good chance he is scum.

However, I think Volt is more likely to be scum. He is just kind of there in the background, not really lurking, but just there, and with his low roll looks a bit suspicious.

Chairs seems to be lurking. This actually kind of scares me. So far it seems he has drawn little attention to himself.

Mail-Mi is still a risk. We don't know what his power can do, and the question still remains that even if he is town is it worth taking the risk of possibly allowing a scum player to power themselves up.

PPS makes a lot of odd posts and claims to have an anti-town power. I am not sure what to make of that.

Ash seems interesting. Really pushing a Mail-Mi lynch. If we lynch either Mail-Mi or Ash we might be able to figure out the alignment of the other. Not sure though.

I get a null read on Yuma.

I think Hyrdrad, XP and Faust are likely town.

Right now, I think Volt is most likely to be scum.

Vote: Volt

[Beyond Awesome]

That's L-3

[Beyond Awesome]

Oh, and I forgot Box from my read. He seems townish, but we have very little to go off.

[Beyond Awesome]

And, I also forgot WW. Most of his posts seem very town. I am leaning town on him.

So, most likely town, Box, WW, XP, Faust, and Hydrad.

Most likely scum: Volt

[Ichimaru Gin]

Chairs seems to be lurking. This actually kind of scares me. So far it seems he has drawn little attention to himself.

He had a lurker meta for a long time. But that seemed to have changed in some recent games I've played with him.


Also, why do you think XP is town? I mean, he had his early VT claim and stuff, but I'm not sure that I buy it.
I agree with his assessment that faust and I are both town though--but no one seems to have replied to a lot of his posts.

[Voltaire]

Why people continue to think it's okay to vote without explanation mystifies me. I'm sure it was never okay in any of the other games I've played.

There is nothing in lio I see that requires a stance, other than on me. Seriously. That's pretty not ok.

What does this mean?

It's not true, at least not after your recent set of posts. Catching up.

[Voltaire]

We can agree to disagree. I have purposely kept Town alive by playing up the real possibility someone must be town. Every point I made was perfectly valid because the person was town. If you think Mafia never play against their win on then you are at kindergarten level mafia.

I recall winning a game by never not voting a towny right up until the end.

The last time someone accused someone of kindergarten-level mafia, it was scum!Robz trying desperately to discredit me because I had him cornered.

Not the same situation, but please, let's not be insulting here. Unless you're scum. No reason for town to do it.

[Voltaire]

Right now I suspect scum ashersky surprise bussed scum liopoil. I would have liked to have seen the wagon grow further.

This is getting dangerously close to everyone is suspecting active players (me included). Do you really think that's what is going on?

[Voltaire]

Also, why do you think XP is town? I mean, he had his early VT claim and stuff, but I'm not sure that I buy it.

...what are you talking about?

[liopoil]

There is nothing in lio I see that requires a stance, other than on me. Seriously. That's pretty not ok.

What does this mean?

It's not true, at least not after your recent set of posts. Catching up.

I still want to know what you meant to say, because your sentence doesn't make sense right now.

[Voltaire]

There is nothing in lio I see that requires a stance, other than on me. Seriously. That's pretty not ok.

What does this mean?

It's not true, at least not after your recent set of posts. Catching up.

I still want to know what you meant to say, because your sentence doesn't make sense right now.

What I meant to say was, you struck me as basically doing what I'd been accused of doing - actilurking. That you'd only taken a hard stance on me. This is no longer correct.

And I really have five votes on me. Lovely. Well then. I still think BA is misguided town, Hydrad I need to re-read, XP is town, BA is grrr!town which only leaves IG as possible scum (not mail-mi).

As I understand it, the case is the good ol' fashioned "Volt isn't awesome" (spiced with "he rolled low"). I think it is entirely possible scum is avoiding my wagon right now.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also, why do you think XP is town? I mean, he had his early VT claim and stuff, but I'm not sure that I buy it.

...what are you talking about?

Wait. I may be confused with another game.

[Ichimaru Gin]

There is nothing in lio I see that requires a stance, other than on me. Seriously. That's pretty not ok.

What does this mean?

It's not true, at least not after your recent set of posts. Catching up.

I still want to know what you meant to say, because your sentence doesn't make sense right now.

What I meant to say was, you struck me as basically doing what I'd been accused of doing - actilurking. That you'd only taken a hard stance on me. This is no longer correct.

And I really have five votes on me. Lovely. Well then. I still think BA is misguided town, Hydrad I need to re-read, XP is town, BA is grrr!town which only leaves IG as possible scum (not mail-mi).

As I understand it, the case is the good ol' fashioned "Volt isn't awesome" (spiced with "he rolled low"). I think it is entirely possible scum is avoiding my wagon right now.

What about faust?
So you're saying the people on your wagon are more likely town?
Really though Volt, we've played a ton of games together, and I thought you were better at reading me. I really see OMGUS/saving yourself in your read on me.

Like everyone else, you're like "oh yeah ichi's scum" but for what reason?! Yeah I rolled low like you--which consequently isn't really a big part of my read on you. Then I was overly defensive--nothing new there, though I understand that newbies and people I haven't played with in a while seeing it as scummy, I don't understand your read on me.

And faust, look I'm here! I'm posting, but I guess you'll continue to tunnel me. Bah, either scum has complete control of the game right now, or town is just failing miserably.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also, why do you think XP is town? I mean, he had his early VT claim and stuff, but I'm not sure that I buy it.

...what are you talking about?

Wait. I may be am confused with another game.

[Voltaire]

What about faust?
So you're saying the people on your wagon are more likely town?
Really though Volt, we've played a ton of games together, and I thought you were better at reading me. I really see OMGUS/saving yourself in your read on me.

Like everyone else, you're like "oh yeah ichi's scum" but for what reason?! Yeah I rolled low like you--which consequently isn't really a big part of my read on you. Then I was overly defensive--nothing new there, though I understand that newbies and people I haven't played with in a while seeing it as scummy, I don't understand your read on me.

And faust, look I'm here! I'm posting, but I guess you'll continue to tunnel me. Bah, either scum has complete control of the game right now, or town is just failing miserably.

1. What about faust?
2. I have no innate ability to read you whatsoever. Why do you think I have this magical power?
3. This final sentiment is so strange.

I actually wasn't voting you - I was voting lio, whose recent posts have negated my scum read on him. However, vote: IG does seem quite fine, quite fine indeed.

[Ichimaru Gin]

What about faust?
So you're saying the people on your wagon are more likely town?
Really though Volt, we've played a ton of games together, and I thought you were better at reading me. I really see OMGUS/saving yourself in your read on me.

Like everyone else, you're like "oh yeah ichi's scum" but for what reason?! Yeah I rolled low like you--which consequently isn't really a big part of my read on you. Then I was overly defensive--nothing new there, though I understand that newbies and people I haven't played with in a while seeing it as scummy, I don't understand your read on me.

And faust, look I'm here! I'm posting, but I guess you'll continue to tunnel me. Bah, either scum has complete control of the game right now, or town is just failing miserably.

1. What about faust?
2. I have no innate ability to read you whatsoever. Why do you think I have this magical power?
3. This final sentiment is so strange.

I actually wasn't voting you - I was voting lio, whose recent posts have negated my scum read on him. However, vote: IG does seem quite fine, quite fine indeed.

Well I'm glad I was voting for you already. Thank you for this thinly veiled OMGUS that makes me even more sure of your alignment.

1. Faust has been a very important active player today who has said a lot of things and continues championing killing people over the numbers they've rolled (not purely over that, but as a large component of his reads). I've taken note of how little you've said about him and would just like to hear more of your reads on him.
2. Ok. However, I have played with you more and you at least know me better than most other players in this game. I feel like you're "playing dumb" here and acting like you have no idea at all how to read me.
3. Kind of like that weird post that you made that you still haven't answered lio or me about. But yeah, this is how I feel about this game.

Moreso than any other game, I can't believe the amount of attacks on me right out of the gate--and are now coming from all sides. Same with lio, huge wagons mounting up on very little evidence.

To the Newbies (and everyone actually) when/if I flip town, please at least kill Volt for me.

[Ichimaru Gin]

With the way things are going, yuma's massclaim idea is looking more attractive.

[Hydrad]

With the way things are going, yuma's massclaim idea is looking more attractive.

I'm really interested in the massclaim for the reason that i'm just not even sure what rules we are playing around. Its really weird to play when I have almost no idea what powers people can even have in the game.

[liopoil]

With the way things are going, yuma's massclaim idea is looking more attractive.

Why? I don't really like the idea... I don't think it will help us.

[Ichimaru Gin]

With the way things are going, yuma's massclaim idea is looking more attractive.

Why? I don't really like the idea... I don't think it will help us.

Well if people keep bullheadedly pushing my lynch, I will at least claim, but it's going to suck.

[liopoil]

With the way things are going, yuma's massclaim idea is looking more attractive.

Why? I don't really like the idea... I don't think it will help us.

Well if people keep bullheadedly pushing my lynch, I will at least claim, but it's going to suck.

...you only have 3 votes. I share your frustration that people are acting rashly, but there is plenty of time for things to turn around.

[Hydrad]

The way its going it doesn't look like we are going to get 8 people to agree to lynch someone. Unless a post comes out and someone seems super scummy.

[Ichimaru Gin]

With the way things are going, yuma's massclaim idea is looking more attractive.

Why? I don't really like the idea... I don't think it will help us.

Well if people keep bullheadedly pushing my lynch, I will at least claim, but it's going to suck.

...you only have 3 votes. I share your frustration that people are acting rashly, but there is plenty of time for things to turn around.

4 now with Volt I think, but I appreciate what you said.
As time goes on this game, I am getting very ticked at how people are choosing to play. If they don't turn out to be scum it's even worse.

[Hydrad]

The way its going it doesn't look like we are going to get 8 people to agree to lynch someone. Unless a post comes out and someone seems super scummy.

By this i meant for just today. I expect in other days we will have more people agreeing but at the moment it seems really split.

[Ichimaru Gin]

The way its going it doesn't look like we are going to get 8 people to agree to lynch someone. Unless a post comes out and someone seems super scummy.

By this i meant for just today. I expect in other days we will have more people agreeing but at the moment it seems really split.

Today as in a real day or D1 of the game?

[Hydrad]

The way its going it doesn't look like we are going to get 8 people to agree to lynch someone. Unless a post comes out and someone seems super scummy.

By this i meant for just today. I expect in other days we will have more people agreeing but at the moment it seems really split.

Today as in a real day or D1 of the game?

D1 of the game

[Beyond Awesome]

Chairs seems to be lurking. This actually kind of scares me. So far it seems he has drawn little attention to himself.

He had a lurker meta for a long time. But that seemed to have changed in some recent games I've played with him.


Also, why do you think XP is town? I mean, he had his early VT claim and stuff, but I'm not sure that I buy it.
I agree with his assessment that faust and I are both town though--but no one seems to have replied to a lot of his posts.

XP hasn't done anything that screams scum to me. He seems fairly engaged. And, for now, I also buy his claim in the beginning. Although, it could very well be a ruse to trick town. I have considered that possibility, but for now, I am putting him in the likely to be town category.

[Beyond Awesome]

With the way things are going, yuma's massclaim idea is looking more attractive.

Why? I don't really like the idea... I don't think it will help us.

Well if people keep bullheadedly pushing my lynch, I will at least claim, but it's going to suck.

...you only have 3 votes. I share your frustration that people are acting rashly, but there is plenty of time for things to turn around.

4 now with Volt I think, but I appreciate what you said.
As time goes on this game, I am getting very ticked at how people are choosing to play. If they don't turn out to be scum it's even worse.

I actually think you have two votes. My vote was changed to volt.

[Ichimaru Gin]

With the way things are going, yuma's massclaim idea is looking more attractive.

Why? I don't really like the idea... I don't think it will help us.

Well if people keep bullheadedly pushing my lynch, I will at least claim, but it's going to suck.

...you only have 3 votes. I share your frustration that people are acting rashly, but there is plenty of time for things to turn around.

4 now with Volt I think, but I appreciate what you said.
As time goes on this game, I am getting very ticked at how people are choosing to play. If they don't turn out to be scum it's even worse.

I actually think you have two votes. My vote was changed to volt.

Yeah you're right. I miscounted and just added Volt's vote to lio's estimation.

[Witherweaver]

BA seems a lot lot lot like first-time scum to me.  Especially with the most recent jump to Volt.

Ichi seems like he's jumping the gun on acting defensive.  He knows it's expected of him and he's referenced it here. (Something along the lines of a "you know I'm always defensive, why is this time different?" response.)  This I see as scummy (referencing your own meta as a defense), but he did the same thing as town in Greater Idea.   Also that one back in forth with Faust where he gave a preemptive "you're probably going to find me scummy for this" thing is somewhat of a scumtell to me.

On the other hand, I have a very tunneling mentality, so right now everything BA and Ichi say I see as scummy.  I have to actively make myself think about other people.

Nothing else has stood out to me.  Ash seems way way off with his reads to me.. I see nothing scummy about any of the people he's accusing, and I don't see his arguments as very good.  This makes me suspect him somewhat more.  He tunnels as both town and scum, so it's hard to tell there.. it kind of seems here like he's just looking for something to grab ahold of and tunnel on, though.  It's probably not the best idea to lynch him today (he's a great scum player, but he's also just a good player, so he's a big boon if he is town), so not my top choice.

I don't see how this isn't town Volt here.  In Greater Idea he stood out to me as quite not-town Volt.. it really seemed like he was fabricating his town play.  I don't see that here, he just seems like regular Volt.  He could have learned from that, but I can't imagine voting for him today.

PPS seems town enough.. Yuma I have no read on.  New people I can't tell.. Hydrad looks very questionable, but that could be new town as easy as new scum.. Box looks towny.  Lolipop I have to reread.. I didn't follow the arguments made against him, or the votes on him.  That big post that Ash said was super scummy seemed not scummy at all to me.

Xerxes, Mail-Mi, Faust I think are town.  If Mail-Mi is scum, his partner is CERTAINLY someone quite experienced and theory/strategy-driven and cerebral: Ash, Faust, Voltaire, possibly Yuma, but I don't think Yuma goes for those kind of gambits.  As I think Faust and Voltaire are town, and only have a slight scum inclination on Ash, I'm not too compelled by the scum!Mail-Mi scenario.

I'm still voting BA I think, and I'm a little bit stronger on him than Ichi, so I'm okay with that. 

PPE: 3

[Witherweaver]

Also, this was brought up but didn't get a lot of attention as far as I can recall:

In the last run, did any of the monster get changed from enough-points-to-kill to not-enough-points late in the day, as in not enough time for us to respond?  Were there any scum powers that were used during Evening?

I'm inclined to think scum can't continually do stuff to us.. they've already rerolled Faust and Xerxes (via a Troll attack).  I wonder how much more can be done in a single day.. but there is the concern that they reroll (or whatever else) someone right before Evening.  So we should either all be on at that time, or we should overkill the Troll with Mail-Mi.  I'm guessing no one is really going to go for the last option (except those that think Mail-Mi is scum).

[Witherweaver]

I had forgotten about Chairs this game in my last summary post.  I'm null there, slight town inclination for no good reason, except for somewhat genuine-feeling posts.

[Witherweaver]

vote: pps above posts are scummy... (how's that for an explanation?)

Awesome because you just elevated yourself to obvtown afaiac.

I don't get this.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Lolipop I have to reread.. I didn't follow the arguments made against him, or the votes on him.  That big post that Ash said was super scummy seemed not scummy at all to me.

You mean liopoil?

BA seems a lot lot lot like first-time scum to me.  Especially with the most recent jump to Volt.

Ichi seems like he's jumping the gun on acting defensive.  He knows it's expected of him and he's referenced it here. (Something along the lines of a "you know I'm always defensive, why is this time different?" response.)  This I see as scummy (referencing your own meta as a defense), but he did the same thing as town in Greater Idea.   Also that one back in forth with Faust where he gave a preemptive "you're probably going to find me scummy for this" thing is somewhat of a scumtell to me.

On the other hand, I have a very tunneling mentality, so right now everything BA and Ichi say I see as scummy.  I have to actively make myself think about other people.

This actually seems quite townie here. I don't really see scum!WW admitting to having a tunneling mentality. He gives some good analysis of my meta, which I appreciate him seeing that I self-referenced in exactly the same way as town in Greater Idea. Sure, it seems like a bad idea as of course I'll probably use the same reasoning as scum (whenever I get to be scum again, instead of town like 7 games in a row), but that's something.

[liopoil]

BA seems a lot lot lot like first-time scum to me.  Especially with the most recent jump to Volt.

Ichi seems like he's jumping the gun on acting defensive.  He knows it's expected of him and he's referenced it here. (Something along the lines of a "you know I'm always defensive, why is this time different?" response.)  This I see as scummy (referencing your own meta as a defense), but he did the same thing as town in Greater Idea.   Also that one back in forth with Faust where he gave a preemptive "you're probably going to find me scummy for this" thing is somewhat of a scumtell to me.

I don't see how this isn't town Volt here.  In Greater Idea he stood out to me as quite not-town Volt.. it really seemed like he was fabricating his town play.  I don't see that here, he just seems like regular Volt.  He could have learned from that, but I can't imagine voting for him today.

Lolipop I have to reread.. I didn't follow the arguments made against him, or the votes on him.  That big post that Ash said was super scummy seemed not scummy at all to me.

Xerxes, Mail-Mi, Faust I think are town.  If Mail-Mi is scum, his partner is CERTAINLY someone quite experienced and theory/strategy-driven and cerebral: Ash, Faust, Voltaire, possibly Yuma, but I don't think Yuma goes for those kind of gambits.  As I think Faust and Voltaire are town, and only have a slight scum inclination on Ash, I'm not too compelled by the scum!Mail-Mi scenario.

- Agree with you on BA, but it's not a strong read for me
- I disagree with you on ichi, his debate with faust looked like town v. town, and his reactions to stuff seem reasonable thusfar
- I agree that there isn't really anything scummy about voltaire's play in general, however, I do have a scumread on him. Two reasons: 1) he rolled a 5, the lowest of everyone, and 2) The way he acted in regard to his vote on me was a bit strange.
- Yep, got to reread lolipop!
- I don't follow you with mail-mi. It is possible he is scum that actually has a role that benefits from not rolling, right?

[Witherweaver]

Does no one agree with me on BA?  I'm the only one voting there. 

PPE:2

[pingpongsam]

So we should either all be on at that time, or we should overkill the Troll with Mail-Mi.  I'm guessing no one is really going to go for the last option (except those that think Mail-Mi is scum).

I am in favor of the overkill but have no set suspicion he is scum.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So we should either all be on at that time, or we should overkill the Troll with Mail-Mi.  I'm guessing no one is really going to go for the last option (except those that think Mail-Mi is scum).

I am in favor of the overkill but have no set suspicion he is scum.

So you're saying you think it's safer to possibly (probably?) have a town PR be very weakened in order to combat a scum attack/ploy that may or may not happen?

[Witherweaver]

BA seems a lot lot lot like first-time scum to me.  Especially with the most recent jump to Volt.

Ichi seems like he's jumping the gun on acting defensive.  He knows it's expected of him and he's referenced it here. (Something along the lines of a "you know I'm always defensive, why is this time different?" response.)  This I see as scummy (referencing your own meta as a defense), but he did the same thing as town in Greater Idea.   Also that one back in forth with Faust where he gave a preemptive "you're probably going to find me scummy for this" thing is somewhat of a scumtell to me.

I don't see how this isn't town Volt here.  In Greater Idea he stood out to me as quite not-town Volt.. it really seemed like he was fabricating his town play.  I don't see that here, he just seems like regular Volt.  He could have learned from that, but I can't imagine voting for him today.

Lolipop I have to reread.. I didn't follow the arguments made against him, or the votes on him.  That big post that Ash said was super scummy seemed not scummy at all to me.

Xerxes, Mail-Mi, Faust I think are town.  If Mail-Mi is scum, his partner is CERTAINLY someone quite experienced and theory/strategy-driven and cerebral: Ash, Faust, Voltaire, possibly Yuma, but I don't think Yuma goes for those kind of gambits.  As I think Faust and Voltaire are town, and only have a slight scum inclination on Ash, I'm not too compelled by the scum!Mail-Mi scenario.

- Agree with you on BA, but it's not a strong read for me
- I disagree with you on ichi, his debate with faust looked like town v. town, and his reactions to stuff seem reasonable thusfar
- I agree that there isn't really anything scummy about voltaire's play in general, however, I do have a scumread on him. Two reasons: 1) he rolled a 5, the lowest of everyone, and 2) The way he acted in regard to his vote on me was a bit strange.
- Yep, got to reread lolipop!
- I don't follow you with mail-mi. It is possible he is scum that actually has a role that benefits from not rolling, right?

You're lolipop, grats

As for Mail-Mi, I totally agree, BUT, well, maybe my thinking is wrong.  But I have a hard time seeing him make this gambit ... first, it feels honest.  Secondly, he's not the player I expect to do it.  That could just be me totally misreading Mail-Mi as a general player.  But continuing on that line of thought.. it implies that if he is scum, it was a partner that came up with the idea and not him.  That idea I expect from the people I listed, so that's where my line of thought is there.

[Witherweaver]

So we should either all be on at that time, or we should overkill the Troll with Mail-Mi.  I'm guessing no one is really going to go for the last option (except those that think Mail-Mi is scum).

I am in favor of the overkill but have no set suspicion he is scum.

So you're saying you think it's safer to possibly (probably?) have a town PR be very weakened in order to combat a scum attack/ploy that may or may not happen?

Hm, very weakened?  We don't really know how the mechanics of his PR and how drastic of an effect rolling vs. saving is.

[Hydrad]

Does no one agree with me on BA?  I'm the only one voting there. 

PPE:2

The biggest weird thing about BA i find is that his 12 was untouched for the rerolls and stuff. I don't really find him scummy except for that part. It could just be that scum can't touch 12's? Although that would seem like an odd rule. I honestly don't know what to think of him but personally I find Volt and asher as my top 2 for being possible scum.

I don't think BA is town yet but I still think I feel safer with him then with others.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So we should either all be on at that time, or we should overkill the Troll with Mail-Mi.  I'm guessing no one is really going to go for the last option (except those that think Mail-Mi is scum).

I am in favor of the overkill but have no set suspicion he is scum.

So you're saying you think it's safer to possibly (probably?) have a town PR be very weakened in order to combat a scum attack/ploy that may or may not happen?

Hm, very weakened?  We don't really know how the mechanics of his PR and how drastic of an effect rolling vs. saving is.

Yeah you're right. From what we do know it sounds like this

Defeating the Troll > Not Rolling > Rolling Unnecessarily

So it may not have as much of an effect. Who knows, I don't think there's much use in speculating what mail-mi's PR is save that he would prefer to not roll if he could.

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, and I'm not advocating he do roll.  But I am 100^100% advocating that he be online right up to and including the Evening start in case he has to do something.

The rest of us should be, too.

[liopoil]

Okay, reads time:

scumreads: mail-mi, pingpongsam, Voltaire, XerxesPraelor, Beyond Awesome
nullreads: yuma, BoxOfDog, Hydrad
Unsure-reads: ashersky, chairs, Witherweaver
townreads: Ichimaru Gin, faust, liopoil

Would vote for: mail-mi, pingpongsam, Voltaire, Beyond Awesome
Might vote for: ashersky, chairs, Witherweaver
Not planning on voting for: yuma, BoxOfDog, Hydrad, XerxesPraelor
Won't vote for: Ichimaru Gin, faust, liopoil

explanations:

- I'm town
- Hydrad is a new player, nothing he has said so far gives me much of a read on him, but it seems we have set up a standard of not lynching the newbie D1 so I won't be voting there today.
- Yuma has been V/LA and everything he has done is null, including his vote for me. When he comes back, I am unlikely vote for him because in my experience he is always always null.
- I have found most things that Xerxes has done scummy, but I have never played with him before so I could be wrong. His interaction with faust has convinced faust that xerxes is town, so unless something happens I'll let xerxes live for today.
- BoxOfDog has done very little today. His roll was pro-town but he would have to have played that 11 even if he were scum. I could very well vote for him if he does something scummy later, of course.
- WW, chairs, and ashersky I have conflicting ideas about and I need to reread. Is chairs lurking? I feel like chairs is lurking.
- Ichimaru Gin and Faust are townreads that IIRC I have discussed elsewhere.
- I posted my thoughts on Voltaire very recently:

there isn't really anything scummy about voltaire's play in general, however, I do have a scumread on him. Two reasons: 1) he rolled a 5, the lowest of everyone, and 2) The way he acted in regard to his vote on me was a bit strange.

I think he is more likely to be scum than other people but not strongly enough to vote for him over my other scumreads just yet.
- Beyond Awesome is another slight scumread, his actions do seem to be playing it safe sort of, as first time scum. I don't like the timing of his voltaire vote and it is weird that he hasn't been rerolled while others have.
- PPS's vote on me was scummy because it didn't make sense, and I felt like he was sort of grasping at straws in the subsequent discussion. I also do not like his early claim, it is bad play if he is town, but a reasonable move as scum, which I can very much see him doing.
- I have no problem with mail-mi's claim. However, he has been very absent for someone who has been a big topic of discussion. His lurking seems to almost be an attempt to get us to forget about him. I don't have any problem seeing him deciding to make his claim as scum, so the claim itself is null. His has 20 posts in this game with very very little content. If he is town, he needs to be defending his actions and actively trying to find the real scum. Should he fullclaim? I can't know because I don't know his role, but my guess is that if he is town he probably should. I don't totally like the idea of having him roll though.

Of my scumreads, I think mail-mi is the scummiest, Vote: Mail-mi

[pingpongsam]

So we should either all be on at that time, or we should overkill the Troll with Mail-Mi.  I'm guessing no one is really going to go for the last option (except those that think Mail-Mi is scum).

I am in favor of the overkill but have no set suspicion he is scum.

So you're saying you think it's safer to possibly (probably?) have a town PR be very weakened in order to combat a scum attack/ploy that may or may not happen?

At the risk of being gratuitously redundant, yes, that is what I have been saying all along. Are just now taking issue with the notion.

[pingpongsam]

Liopoil, if you expected me to be making sense you are sure to be confused. While I can assure there is method to the madness it remains madness much the same. But if it makes you feel better for me to vote your partner instead, Vote: ashersky

[liopoil]

Liopoil, if you expected me to be making sense you are sure to be confused. While I can assure there is method to the madness it remains madness much the same. But if it makes you feel better for me to vote your partner instead, Vote: ashersky

I have no idea what to make of this, I suppose that might be because it is madness.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So we should either all be on at that time, or we should overkill the Troll with Mail-Mi.  I'm guessing no one is really going to go for the last option (except those that think Mail-Mi is scum).

I am in favor of the overkill but have no set suspicion he is scum.

So you're saying you think it's safer to possibly (probably?) have a town PR be very weakened in order to combat a scum attack/ploy that may or may not happen?

At the risk of being gratuitously redundant, yes, that is what I have been saying all along. Are just now taking issue with the notion.

Just making sure I understood you. 

[Witherweaver]

People should start making more sense.

[Ichimaru Gin]

People should start making more sense.

This.

(says probably one of the biggest culprits)

[Ichimaru Gin]

People should start making more sense.

This.

(says probably one of the biggest culprits)

Meaning me.

At any rate, I've heard some support for Yuma's massclaim idea from Hydrad I think. Is everyone else totally opposed to it?

[pingpongsam]

People should start making more sense.

This.

(says probably one of the biggest culprits)

Meaning me.

At any rate, I've heard some support for Yuma's massclaim idea from Hydrad I think. Is everyone else totally opposed to it?

Totally opposed for D1. More interested when we see some night actions happening.

[Witherweaver]

Yes, we shall not mass claim. Bad idea.

[Witherweaver]

PPS, why are Ash and Lolipop partners?

[liopoil]

People should start making more sense.

Sounds good. Ichi, he isn't talking to you. I think he's talking to pps.

PPS, why are Ash and Lolipop partners?

he doesn't have a reason, he's just sort of poking at me. He hasn't even stated any reason to be suspicious of ashersky. It's madness, and I don't care if there's some silly method to it, it's scummy.

[Witherweaver]

Maybe. But madness is often town.  Xeroxes, for instance, has a history of being erradic town.

I mean, scum have to be very careful because they don't want to slip anything.

[ashersky]

vote: pps

OMGUS

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.6

Ichimaru Gin (2): faust, Voltaire
Beyond Awesome (1): Witherweaver
Voltaire (5): mail-mi, Hydrad, Ichimaru Gin, XerxesPraelor, Beyond Awesome
pingpongsam (2): yuma, ashersky
mail-mi (1): liopoil
ashersky (1): pingpongsam

not voting (2): chairs, BoxOfDog

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 1 at 4pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 3 at 4pm forum time.

Target: 1000
Score: 1031


Edit: Collected votes for Ichimaru Gin.

[EFHW]

There are two votes on IG - faust and Voltaire.

[liopoil]

There are two votes on IG - faust and Voltaire.

Vote: EFHW

[EFHW]

There are two votes on IG - faust and Voltaire.

Vote: EFHW

Bring it on.  I survived a troll smashing!

[Ichimaru Gin]

There are two votes on IG - faust and Voltaire.

Vote: EFHW

You just broke the fourth wall man.

[yuma]

Kinda catching up here... what's been going on guys?

[liopoil]

Kinda catching up here... what's been going on guys?

Not much. People voting for each other, wagons rising and falling. PPS and ashersky are acting strangely.

[yuma]

A kinda note taking post for me to get caught up. I'll try to do a tl;dr at the end or put stuff in bold that is essential for others to read, the rest you can read if you want but will mostly be thought process stuff...

still think claiming has potential to help us, but I'll concede to the majority and let it wait for a day or two... not sure why suggesting claiming is scummy

not interested in a mail-mi lynch but don't think he is town either. Agree with liopoil that at worst we can try to make sure that he uses his power in a pro-town way (which still doesn't mean he is town) on a later day when we are more comfortable with him full-claiming... or letting mafia decide to potentially take him out for us if he is town.

I see BA getting heat for not having his dice rerolled. I see that logic, but dismiss it as too one dimensional in a game that has many dimensions. If he is doing other stuff, then maybe he could be a lynch... I think he had a summary post at one point that I found scummy, but can't remember if that was him or not.

I still think low rollers shouldn't be punished for rolling low... this is part of the reason I Think a mass claim would help. Have people say how many dice started with, how many dice rolled, list all numbers rolled and saved, etc, etc and eliminate this aspect of questioning roles cause I think just about everyone is going to play high for fear of being lynched for playing low. If anything people will play a 9 or 10 and save a 12/11 if they get lucky to have two high roles. So not suspicious of volt or ichi for that.

That said ichi and volt have responded pretty aggressively. Id on't think aggression is suspicious, especially in the face of unwarranted, or perceived unwarranted, suspicion. I think I am most suspicious of the people who pressed them the most.

Something happened with xerxes and faust? They probably don't want to say exactly what but can you two confirm that it was the two of you and not other players or another game I am thinking of? Probably don't want to lynch either of these two then.

I am always willing to lynch Box. 10 flurried posts do not make up for missing the start of the game and being absent sense. PPS could be a decent lynch I think. Liopoil also responded aggressively--again not scummy--but was... well less crazed I think and more calm and controlled (and thus scummier to me), but I think I have made this argument improperly about liopoil in the past... Toy story was it? Liopoil might remember better than me.

Ash has been strangly a non-factor for me. Ash? you there? I know you want to lynch mail-mi but don't remember much else.

Hydra gettinga  day1 newbie pass.

who else... probably willing to lynch anyone else that I can't remember here: WW, (ash, I just remember cause I know when I am playing with ash) and chairs and PPS! voting for him...

Chairs could be a good lynch, can't remember much.

tl;dr...

Won't lynch hydra, mail-mi, faust/xerxes (pending confirmation that something happened between the two of them)

nullish: ichi, voltaire

willing to lynch: ash, box

probably won't to lynch: pps, liopoil or chairs.

[pingpongsam]

Yuma is clearly town.

[Witherweaver]

@Yuma: BA has more than his high roll, mostly jumping to easy wagons, especially to Ichi and Colt.

Plus something about him just struck me as first time scum.. Like not sure what to say but feels the need to make some posts and cases.

I could be wrong, but just making the point  that there is more than the roll.

[Witherweaver]

Oh and don't vote for me.  And I think don't vote for PPS either.

And I've been drinking.

[pingpongsam]

And I think don't vote for PPS either.

Can you elucidate why?

[Witherweaver]

And I think don't vote for PPS either.

Can you elucidate why?

My gut tells me you're town.

[Witherweaver]

Claiming a negative utility PR as scum is just av really weird move.  WIFOM to get people to think you're town is there, of course, but I have trouble seeing it as a good move.  Plus you seemed authentic.

[Beyond Awesome]

I have just thought of something regarding defeating the monster. I think that if we find out what the reward is via QT, we should not post in the thread about the reward. There are two reasons for this. No. 1, it gives scum less info. Reason no. 2, if a town player were about to be mislynched on D2, they could bring up the reward, and that would let us know with 100% certainty that player is town and stop them from getting lynched.

I'm not sure how the reward thing works though. Scum might be able to find out anyway.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, on subsequent days, keeping the rewards a secret can keep town players from getting mislynched on subsequent days.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, I don't want anyone to misinterpret what I am saying. I do think we should use our rewards, but if it is something that we can keep secret such as getting extra dice, no reason to tell scum.

[pingpongsam]

Pretty sure monster rewards for either alignment will be public knowledge.

[chairs]

I'm not sure I follow why there's a big Voltaire wagon.  What am I missing?

[faust]

Won't lynch hydra, mail-mi, faust/xerxes (pending confirmation that something happened between the two of them)

nullish: ichi, voltaire

willing to lynch: ash, box

probably won't to lynch: pps, liopoil or chairs.

Confirming that something happened between Xerxes and me.

[faust]

yuma looks like town, so that's good.

Ichi's most recent posts are also on the townier side.

How about vote: Voltaire? He just feels like scum. Will look at this in more detail after the weekend.

Oh yeah, that's L-2.

[faust]

Sorry, bolding fail.

Vote: Voltaire

[Hydrad]

Sorry two last nooby questions. If 8 votes are reached is the person lynched right away or does he have time for last words to get out of it.

Also f I die but town still wins later does that count as a win for me still?

[Beyond Awesome]

Sorry two last nooby questions. If 8 votes are reached is the person lynched right away or does he have time for last words to get out of it.

Also f I die but town still wins later does that count as a win for me still?

He dies, but if the thread is not locked immediately, he can still say last words. Typically, from what I have seen from my previous game, we allow the player a chance to claim before lynching them. This is only my second game though.

I believe that if you die then, yes, assuming you are town, if town wins, you also win.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: Voltaire

That is L-1.

[pingpongsam]

Voltaire is way outside his meta. I believe it unlikely he and ashersky are partners so his flip will be largely informative.

[XerxesPraelor]

Voltaire is way outside his meta. I believe it unlikely he and ashersky are partners so his flip will be largely informative.

I believe the second sentence is sincere. I don't think Scum-PPS would use this to defend a partner - it's too obvious.

[liopoil]

Voltaire is way outside his meta. I believe it unlikely he and ashersky are partners so his flip will be largely informative.

I believe the second sentence is sincere. I don't think Scum-PPS would use this to defend a partner - it's too obvious.

I don't understand what you are saying. pps isn't defending anyone here, he is just saying that he thinks volt's flip will be informative.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Voltaire is way outside his meta. I believe it unlikely he and ashersky are partners so his flip will be largely informative.

I believe the second sentence is sincere. I don't think Scum-PPS would use this to defend a partner - it's too obvious.

I don't understand what you are saying. pps isn't defending anyone here, he is just saying that he thinks volt's flip will be informative.

I didn't get this either, are you saying you think PPS is partners with Voltaire or Ash?

[mail-mi]

So sorry everyone I've been super busy but I think I'll be able to post something of substance tonight.

[ashersky]

vote: voltaire

[ashersky]

If I die overnight, remember mail-mi and lio as my strongest remaining scum reads.

Then PPS, I suppose.  But not as much.

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: voltaire

Wait, was that the hammer!?

[ashersky]

vote: voltaire

Wait, was that the hammer!?

Dude, fake surprise is scummy.

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: voltaire

Wait, was that the hammer!?

Dude, fake surprise is scummy.

This is not "fake surprise". So you just hammered without giving Voltaire a chance to claim, without warning--this early in the day.

[ashersky]

vote: voltaire

Wait, was that the hammer!?

Dude, fake surprise is scummy.

This is not "fake surprise". So you just hammered without giving Voltaire a chance to claim, without warning--this early in the day.

That's one way of putting it.

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: voltaire

Wait, was that the hammer!?

Dude, fake surprise is scummy.

This is not "fake surprise". So you just hammered without giving Voltaire a chance to claim, without warning--this early in the day.

That's one way of putting it.

I mean, of course I found him super scummy, but I didn't expect someone to just come in and hammer after there was such little activity in the game and we still had time left. In some ways, I guess this is kind of refreshing, given that pretty much every game I've played lately has had last minute lynches. And man, if he flips scum, that pretty much makes you an IC (or savvy enough that you probably deserve to win as scum).

[liopoil]

vote: voltaire

what a stupid move. Voltaire better be scum

[pingpongsam]

If Voltaire flips town who will then believe that ashersky is not?

[Ichimaru Gin]

If Voltaire flips town who will then believe that ashersky is not?

Unfortunately, I could see town!Ash doing this too.

[Witherweaver]

This discussion now is probably just going to help scum figure out who to kill tonight.

[liopoil]

If Voltaire flips town who will then believe that ashersky is not?

Unfortunately, I could see town!Ash doing this too.

very unfortunately. I think this is null on ash no matter what voltaire flips

[EFHW]

THREAD LOCKED

[EFHW]

Final Day 1 Vote Count

Ichimaru Gin (1): Voltaire
Beyond Awesome (1): Witherweaver
Voltaire (eight): mail-mi, Hydrad, Ichimaru Gin, XerxesPraelor, Beyond Awesome, faust, pingpongsam, ashersky
pingpongsam (1): yuma
mail-mi (1): liopoil

not voting (2): chairs, BoxOfDog

With 14 alive, it took 8 to lynch.

Target: 1000
Score: 1031  THE TROLL HAS BEEN SMASHED.  TAKE THAT!  Town reward TBA

Assume Night Actions are due in 48 hours unless informed otherwise.

[EFHW]

Jimmmmm jumped up and proclaimed "Voltaire has been lynched and the Troll has been killed!". Just then the Troll fell over on Jimmmmm and smashed him.  So sad.  Witherweaver dashed forward with his Legacy Stone and held it near Voltaire's body.  It glowed RED!  Voltaire was a Mafia Roleblocker.

[EFHW]

THIS THREAD IS LOCKED! THERE CAN BE ABSOLUTELY NO POSTING BY ANY PLAYER!

[Jimmmmm]

Vote Count 1.7 - Final

Ichimaru Gin (1): Voltaire
Beyond Awesome (1): Witherweaver
Voltaire (eight): mail-mi, Hydrad, Ichimaru Gin, XerxesPraelor, Beyond Awesome, faust, pingpongsam, ashersky
Witherweaver (1): chairs
pingpongsam (1): yuma
mail-mi (1): liopoil

not voting (1): BoxOfDog

With 14 alive, it took 8 to lynch.

Voltaire has been lynched. He was a Mafia Roleblocker.

[Jimmmmm]

Target: 1000
Score: 1031

The Troll has been defeated!

Today's Reward is MEDICAL SUPPORT.

During Night 1, each Town-aligned player may name another player by posting Target: Player in their Personal QT.
Each Mafia-aligned player must name a Town-aligned player in the same way in the Mafia QT.
No two Mafia-aligned players may name the same player.
Each player who is named by at least one other player becomes a 1-shot Doctor for Tonight only.
The player they named will be immune from all kills Tonight.

For example, if Alice targets Bob, whoever Bob targets will be protected. If anyone targets Alice, Bob will be protected.

Night 1 has begun. All Night actions are due on July 1 at 11pm forum time.

Whether or not you submit a Night action, all players must post in their Personal QT at least once during the Night.

[Jimmmmm]

The 13 companions emerged from their tents. Another long Day of adventure lay before them.

BoxOfDog faced the others with suspicion. They had all survived the Night. Perhaps Voltaire had been the only evildoer among them.

Suddenly BoxOfDog felt a sharp pain in his chest. He looked down to see an ugly blade stuck through him. The blade was pulled out of his back, and he fell to the ground. A horrible-looking Orc stood triumphantly behind him. Without hesitation, the Orc ran to mail-mi and rammed his blade toward him as well. mail-mi blocked with his arm, which began to spit out blood.

Witherweaver ran over to BoxOfDog's corpse with the Legacy Stone, which began to glow green.

The twelve who remained faced the Orc.

BoxOfDog has been killed. He was a Vanilla Townie.

An Orc has attacked!
Rule: Only the first instance of each value played counts.

The Orc has attacked mail-mi!



Vote Count 2.0

not voting (12): ashersky, chairs, yuma, mail-mi, faust, XerxesPraelor, Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome, Ichimaru Gin, liopoil, Hydrad, pingpongsam

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 9 at 11pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 11 at 11pm forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 0


Day 2 has begun!

Thread unlocked.

[Jimmmmm]

Rule amendments/clarifications:

The longest a delay can be is 48 hours.
Unless stated otherwise, no Day action will be accepted during twilight.

[Beyond Awesome]

Ugh! I just had my dice stolen, and it was half of them rounded up!!! And, Box died.

But, on the bright side, we lynched scum! Yay! Oh, and it is my birthday.

Anyway, sorry for the low roll guys. I did not roll many dice considering I had them stolen.

Play: 5

[Witherweaver]

Well crap, my reads suck.  All my scum reads were on Voltaire's wagon, and my top choice flipped town.

So I can see Ash lynching Volt as scum as a gamble to gain IC status.  He'd have to be pretty confident Volt was going to get lynched though.  Hard for me to judge here.  He didn't drop much of a hint of suspecting volt before.

PPE: 2

[Beyond Awesome]

By the way, the dice stealer is by far our biggest threat. I really, really hope we lynch him today.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ugh! I just had my dice stolen, and it was half of them rounded up!!! And, Box died.

But, on the bright side, we lynched scum! Yay! Oh, and it is my birthday.

Anyway, sorry for the low roll guys. I did not roll many dice considering I had them stolen.

Play: 5

Happy Birthday. How old are you turning? (if you don't mind me asking).

Oh man. It makes me so glad to hit scum on D1. That's one of the few times I can remember sticking with a read and it being right.
And now, we have at least some of Voltaire's interactions to analyze.

Hmm. Very interesting that scum choose to kill box--and that they were successful. Maybe they just figured he was someone less likely to receive the med assist.

I'm thinking maybe we should claim who we targeted for medical assists, as it should give us some information and can't really hurt now that it's past.

In fact, I'll start. I targeted Liopoil.

[Witherweaver]

I targeted Faust.

[Beyond Awesome]

I targeted Mail-Mi. I can give my reason if you guys like.

[Beyond Awesome]

Ugh! I just had my dice stolen, and it was half of them rounded up!!! And, Box died.

But, on the bright side, we lynched scum! Yay! Oh, and it is my birthday.

Anyway, sorry for the low roll guys. I did not roll many dice considering I had them stolen.

Play: 5

Happy Birthday. How old are you turning? (if you don't mind me asking).

Oh man. It makes me so glad to hit scum on D1. That's one of the few times I can remember sticking with a read and it being right.
And now, we have at least some of Voltaire's interactions to analyze.

Hmm. Very interesting that scum choose to kill box--and that they were successful. Maybe they just figured he was someone less likely to receive the med assist.

I'm thinking maybe we should claim who we targeted for medical assists, as it should give us some information and can't really hurt now that it's past.

In fact, I'll start. I targeted Liopoil.

I'm 29 now.

Also, my current likely scum reads are yuma, ash, lio, and chairs.

[Witherweaver]

Ugh! I just had my dice stolen, and it was half of them rounded up!!! And, Box died.

But, on the bright side, we lynched scum! Yay! Oh, and it is my birthday.

Anyway, sorry for the low roll guys. I did not roll many dice considering I had them stolen.

Play: 5

Happy Birthday. How old are you turning? (if you don't mind me asking).

Oh man. It makes me so glad to hit scum on D1. That's one of the few times I can remember sticking with a read and it being right.
And now, we have at least some of Voltaire's interactions to analyze.

Hmm. Very interesting that scum choose to kill box--and that they were successful. Maybe they just figured he was someone less likely to receive the med assist.

I'm thinking maybe we should claim who we targeted for medical assists, as it should give us some information and can't really hurt now that it's past.

In fact, I'll start. I targeted Liopoil.

I'm 29 now.

Also, my current likely scum reads are yuma, ash, lio, and chairs.

Hm, why them?

[Beyond Awesome]

Ugh! I just had my dice stolen, and it was half of them rounded up!!! And, Box died.

But, on the bright side, we lynched scum! Yay! Oh, and it is my birthday.

Anyway, sorry for the low roll guys. I did not roll many dice considering I had them stolen.

Play: 5

Happy Birthday. How old are you turning? (if you don't mind me asking).

Oh man. It makes me so glad to hit scum on D1. That's one of the few times I can remember sticking with a read and it being right.
And now, we have at least some of Voltaire's interactions to analyze.

Hmm. Very interesting that scum choose to kill box--and that they were successful. Maybe they just figured he was someone less likely to receive the med assist.

I'm thinking maybe we should claim who we targeted for medical assists, as it should give us some information and can't really hurt now that it's past.

In fact, I'll start. I targeted Liopoil.

I'm 29 now.

Also, my current likely scum reads are yuma, ash, lio, and chairs.

Hm, why them?

I gave a lot of thought to things. We now know that the third mafia role was role blocker. We know that one role is a dice roller and the other a dice stealer. I am now inclined to believe that mail-mi actually does have a power that gets stronger the longer he can go without rolling. Although, I might be wrong on this. So, I am now leaning that mail-mi is much more likelier town since Faust flipped.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Isn't faust still alive?

[Witherweaver]

Faust flipped?

How do we know those are their rolls?  How do we know they don't have a X-Shot faction rolling or stealing ability?

[Beyond Awesome]

Faust flipped?

How do we know those are their rolls?  How do we know they don't have a X-Shot faction rolling or stealing ability?

Sorry. I was reading that you targeted Faust and was reading your other posts. Got Faust mixed up with Volt.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, we don't know those are their roles. I am just taking a guess based on what evidence we have.

[Jimmmmm]

Beyond Awesome plays a 5
Score: 5

[ashersky]

BA is scum.

vote: BA

[mail-mi]

I targeted Faust.

As did I.

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: BA

While I believe ash to be fully capable of hammering his partner, I agree with his reads here.

[Beyond Awesome]

I can totally see why you guys are voting for me. I do admit my 5 looks scummy plus me accidentally saying faust instead of volt. Although, I do that sort of thing quite often, getting names mixed up that is. However, I am not sure if that has happened in mafia yet since this is my second game.

[mail-mi]

Vote Count 1.7 - Final

Ichimaru Gin (1): Voltaire
Beyond Awesome (1): Witherweaver
Voltaire (eight): mail-mi, Hydrad, Ichimaru Gin, XerxesPraelor, Beyond Awesome, faust, pingpongsam, ashersky
Witherweaver (1): chairs
pingpongsam (1): yuma
mail-mi (1): liopoil

not voting (1): BoxOfDog

With 14 alive, it took 8 to lynch.

Voltaire has been lynched. He was a Mafia Roleblocker.

Okay so just by nature of wagon analysis: lio, yuma, chairs, and Witherweaver look bad for being off wagon. I'd also expect scum to be around the middle of voltaire's wagon if they were on it, so like Ichi, XP, and BA.

And just from wagon, I think I'm gonna vote: chairs and also because of this post:

I'm not sure I follow why there's a big Voltaire wagon.  What am I missing?

which he posted, then never posted until the lynch again.

[mail-mi]

Play: 11

Play: 3

[Ichimaru Gin]

I can totally see why you guys are voting for me. I do admit my 5 looks scummy plus me accidentally saying faust instead of volt. Although, I do that sort of thing quite often, getting names mixed up that is. However, I am not sure if that has happened in mafia yet since this is my second game.

Mmm. I'm not that sure on you.

unvote

I see more newbie than scum here. It makes more sense to get names mixed up when you haven't played a ton of games with these people. And your comment makes perfect sense subbing "Volt" in for faust.

Plus, you were on Volt's wagon. I don't see newbie scum being that comfortable with bussing.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Play: 11

Play: 3

Ha ha. You get to roll an additional dice for every day you don't roll? Sick!

[Ichimaru Gin]

play: 10

[mail-mi]

Vote Count 1.7 - Final

Ichimaru Gin (1): Voltaire
Beyond Awesome (1): Witherweaver
Voltaire (eight): mail-mi, Hydrad, Ichimaru Gin, XerxesPraelor, Beyond Awesome, faust, pingpongsam, ashersky
Witherweaver (1): chairs
pingpongsam (1): yuma
mail-mi (1): liopoil

not voting (1): BoxOfDog

With 14 alive, it took 8 to lynch.

Voltaire has been lynched. He was a Mafia Roleblocker.

Okay so just by nature of wagon analysis: lio, yuma, chairs, and Witherweaver look bad for being off wagon. I'd also expect scum to be around the middle of voltaire's wagon if they were on it, so like Ichi, XP, and BA.

And just from wagon, I think I'm gonna vote: chairs and also because of this post:

I'm not sure I follow why there's a big Voltaire wagon.  What am I missing?

which he posted, then never posted until the lynch again.

Also: he only has 19 posts.

[Beyond Awesome]

Play: 11

Play: 3

That's pretty awesome! I love your ability mail-mi! I would say that pretty much confirms you are 100% town.

[Witherweaver]

Well, I did not understand how everyone saw that Voltaire was scum.  Also good chance there is a scum on wagon, just by stats.  I'd agree it's more likely to be someone in the middle, or Ash.

[ashersky]

play: 7

Remember, if a die has been played, you can't also play it.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Well, I did not understand how everyone saw that Voltaire was scum.  Also good chance there is a scum on wagon, just by stats.  I'd agree it's more likely to be someone in the middle, or Ash.

Mm. Except if  its a newbie, than I see then joining either earlier--when it seemed like there was less danger, or later when it seemed more inevitable. It's also really important to see what they actually said about Volt. To tell the truth, a lot of my read on him was just him tunneling me when I was town and his out of character approach to the game. His vote one me really looked like he was trying to save himself though.

On Ash, in some ways I feel like he's more likely to be scum now.

[Witherweaver]

BA is scum.

vote: BA

Why?

[Beyond Awesome]

So, here are the numbers played so far

Mail-Mi-3
BA-5
Ash-7
Ichi-10
Mail-Mi-11

Remember everyone, you have to use a number that has not come up yet for it to count. We need 24 more to defeat the monster.

[Witherweaver]

I rolled, waiting on result.

[Hydrad]

Nice we made it. Although I'm pretty surprised that box died when we had the doctor ability. I guess we overlapped a bit.

As for reads I suspected Asher before so to me it looked like he did the hammer to try and look townie as it looked like volt had a decently high chance of being lynched.

I feel like Faust and Mail-mi are town with gin up there also.

As for others I have mostly null reads on lots of them but I don't like chairs lurking. I keep forgetting he's even in the game.

Also I'm on my phone for a bit so I probably won't be able to write really long explanations unless I have to.

[Witherweaver]

Well the more people that suspect Ash the less faith I have in the Ash scum theory~

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: chairs

I feel like he's playing exactly like scum, yet thinks he can somehow get away with it. I see Volt's partner doing almost exactly what he did: leaving and not really having anything to say about anything. His "questioning" of why people were voting for Volt looks like a weak attempt at defending his partner.

Also, townread on hydrad.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also, not sure that mail-mi is 100% confirmed town, but I've had a townread on him from the start, and he makes a good case on chairs.

[Beyond Awesome]

I agree with what is being said about chairs. Like Hydrad said, he seems to be pretty invisible this game. Biggest lurker by far this game...except Box who died.

[Beyond Awesome]

Man, this might sound sad. But, this mafia game is the highlight of my birthday.

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, here is my post-flip read

Hydrad-Post seem very town. I am think it is very likely he's town.
PPS-Had his dice stolen. And, I had the same happen. Man, does it hurt. I'm pretty certain PPS is town.
WW-His postings seem very town to me. I think he's likely town.
Ichi-Seems a lot more town now.
Mail-Mi-Attacked this turn. Has awesome dice ability. I think he is likely town.

XP/Faust-Both had a claim thingy at the beginning. Could be a possible ruse. Null read on them for this reason.

chairs-huge lurker. Likely scum.
Ash-strange behavior. hammers Volt out of the blue with a couple of days left. Not sure what to think. Decent chance at being scum.
Lio-Not sure. Null read.
Yuma-Not sure. Null read.

[Beyond Awesome]

By the way, mail-mi it says you were attacked this turn in the opening day post. Do you know what happened?

[Ichimaru Gin]

I agree with what is being said about chairs. Like Hydrad said, he seems to be pretty invisible this game. Biggest lurker by far this game...except Box who died.

I don't think that's said. Speaking for myself, these games are the most social interaction I get with the outside world by a large margin. When I first started, I had no idea what the heck I was doing, but now Mafia is like a staple of my life.

And man, I'm still high from hitting scum on the first day. I know we can still lose I guess, but Volt's flip helps us a ton.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Man, this might sound sad. But, this mafia game is the highlight of my birthday.

Quote mixup. Last post was replying to this one. My internet is lagging like crazy right now, which is super annoying

[Beyond Awesome]

I agree with what is being said about chairs. Like Hydrad said, he seems to be pretty invisible this game. Biggest lurker by far this game...except Box who died.

I don't think that's said. Speaking for myself, these games are the most social interaction I get with the outside world by a large margin. When I first started, I had no idea what the heck I was doing, but now Mafia is like a staple of my life.

And man, I'm still high from hitting scum on the first day. I know we can still lose I guess, but Volt's flip helps us a ton.
[/quote

Me too! Volt's flip is what made me really excited to log on today.

[Beyond Awesome]

Sorry, quote mix-up as well. I will just copy paste what I posted.

Me too! Volt's flip is what made me really excited to log on today.

[Jimmmmm]

mail-mi plays an 11
Score: 5

mail-mi plays a 3
Score: 5

Ichimaru Gin plays a 10
Score: 15

ashersky plays a 7
Score: 22

[mail-mi]

mail-mi plays an 11
Score: 5

mail-mi plays a 3
Score: 5

Ichimaru Gin plays a 10
Score: 15

ashersky plays a 7
Score: 22

well crap.

[Ichimaru Gin]

mail-mi plays an 11
Score: 5

mail-mi plays a 3
Score: 5

Ichimaru Gin plays a 10
Score: 15

ashersky plays a 7
Score: 22

well crap.

What does this mean?

[Beyond Awesome]

mail-mi plays an 11
Score: 5

mail-mi plays a 3
Score: 5

Ichimaru Gin plays a 10
Score: 15

ashersky plays a 7
Score: 22

well crap.

What does this mean?

I guess it means we don't know what our rolls do.

[Beyond Awesome]

Never mind. Thinking about it, I guess it means the attack on mail-mi has invalidated his rolls.

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, that sucks. And, now, scum knows what mail-mi's power is.

[Hydrad]

<b> play : 7 </b>

I can't believe how unlucky I got. I'm sorry guys

[Hydrad]

play : 7

[Jimmmmm]

Hydrad plays a 7
Score: 22

[Beyond Awesome]

play : 7

Ouch, that's really bad.

[Ichimaru Gin]

play : 7

Ouch, that's really bad.

Ahh! Ash had already played a 7 right?

We only need to hit 60 this time, but still...that's not good.

[ashersky]

<b> play : 7 </b>

I can't believe how unlucky I got. I'm sorry guys

That's only unlucky if you rolled 1 die.

Can someone calculate the chances we get enough, given we can't play an 11?

[ashersky]

mail-mi plays an 11
Score: 5

mail-mi plays a 3
Score: 5

Ichimaru Gin plays a 10
Score: 15

ashersky plays a 7
Score: 22

well crap.

We can still play 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 9, 12 right?

[ashersky]

6 players left to roll...

[Ichimaru Gin]

mail-mi plays an 11
Score: 5

mail-mi plays a 3
Score: 5

Ichimaru Gin plays a 10
Score: 15

ashersky plays a 7
Score: 22

well crap.

We can still play 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 9, 12 right?

Yeah we'd need the 12, 9, 8, 6, and either 3 & 1 or the 4. Sucks even more that mail-mi's numbers don't count, yet can't be used by anyone else. I guess he is pretty much an IC now though, unless mafia had the troll attack one of its own members (which is possible).

[Hydrad]

One thing I'm wondering is there was a roleblocker, a dice in halve person, a reroller, a thief, and someone who can cancel die? Or am I messing up here. It feels like mafia can have multiple powers or maybe a town is hurting us? I don't understand

[Beyond Awesome]

<b> play : 7 </b>

I can't believe how unlucky I got. I'm sorry guys

That's only unlucky if you rolled 1 die.

Can someone calculate the chances we get enough, given we can't play an 11?

I will admit it does seem pretty statistically unlikely. But, in a game I played yesterday, I got $2P three times in a row on a familiar board opening silver/potion and my opponent did not even initially go for familiar.

But, yes, I do want to know what the odds are that he would hit the same number as you.

[Ichimaru Gin]

One thing I'm wondering is there was a roleblocker, a dice in halve person, a reroller, a thief, and someone who can cancel die? Or am I messing up here. It feels like mafia can have multiple powers or maybe a town is hurting us? I don't understand

It's possible. People did think it was odd that the reroller didn't target BA's 12. They speculated that it may have restrictions but we don't really know.

[Ichimaru Gin]

mail-mi plays an 11
Score: 5

mail-mi plays a 3
Score: 5

Ichimaru Gin plays a 10
Score: 15

ashersky plays a 7
Score: 22

well crap.

We can still play 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 9, 12 right?

Yeah we'd need the 12, 9, 8, 6, and either 3 & 1 or the 4. Sucks even more that mail-mi's numbers don't count, yet can't be used by anyone else. I guess he is pretty much an IC now though, unless mafia had the troll attack one of its own members (which is possible).

I made a mistake. The first ones plus a 2 & 1 or the four. We're in OK shape I guess, but I don't think the odds of someone rolling and playing every single one of those numbers is that great. Where's faust? I feel like he'd be really helpful about now. And I also really want to hear what he think's of Volt's flip.

He had been riding me hard all day, and then switched his vote to Volt and didn't give the best reason why he backed off of me other than "IG's recent posts were more townie". Maybe an excuse to switch his vote to his partner for town cred I'm thinking.

[XerxesPraelor]

This is actually making me suspect faust and mail-mi - mail-mi played his dice despite getting hit, using up his stored dice, and mail-mi is such a good choice to hit that I wonder how scum knew who to choose. Mail-mi is absolutely not an IC.

[XerxesPraelor]

I have lots of dice, so I'll roll last.

[faust]

I think we should mass-claim. I believe that most PRs we have are easily confirmable, and we already have an idea which PRs scum has, so they can't really claim a real role and have to claim VT. We can coordinate ourselves and win this.

I targeted Xerxes tonight.

I reread Voltaire during the night, these are the results:

#79 votes Hydrad for not having played with him. He does that always, so null.
#196 Town read on XP, unclear on ash. Doesn't want to lynch PPS. Town read on ash.
#199 Ichi suggests Voltaire is town
#220 Scum read on WW and Ichi. Town read on BA BA is entirely possible as a partner.
#226 mail-mi votes Voltaire.
#229 mail-mi pushes Voltaire further. mail-mi is probably town from that interaction.
#232 Voltaire votes Ichi
#235 Voltaire leans town on mail-mi. Looks like buddying.
#237 Ichi wants people to suspect Voltaire. Would he do that as his partner? Probably not.
#245 Witherweaver doesn't want to lynch Voltaire for rolling low. All people defending low rolls are actually more scummy now.
#310 pushes liopoil.
#316 feels "really good" about his liopoil vote. lio is definitely less likely scum by this.
#344 wants to rethink BA.
#354 suspects Box, liopoil, BA. 1 scum among these three?
#536 Ichi thinks Voltaire is scum.
#548 Hydrad votes Voltaire
#551 Ichi votes Voltaire
#552 Xerxes votes Voltaire
#580 BA does a reread, ends up voting Voltaire Scummiest Voltaire vote so far.
#590 Voltaire thinks BA is town
#594 Voltaire is back on Ichi Ichi is getting more and more unlikely to be Volt's partner.
#609 Witherweaver "I don't see how this isn't town Volt" Super scummy, trying to save his mate
#623 liopoil thinks Voltaire is scummy, but votes for mail-mi. Could be scum tactis.
#644 yuma defends low-rolling and thinks people pressuring Ichi/Volt are scummy. This sure doesn't look good.
#661 PPS put Voltaire to L-1
#667 ash's hammer Really likely town. I think ash has had enough of such gambits in Philosopher's Mafia.
#671 Ichi attacks ash's hammer. Townie. Scum wouldn't do that, knowing that the flip would incriminate them.
#674 liopoil: "Stupid move, Voltaire better be scum" This looks more scummy.

Summary:

townish interactions: mail-mi, Ichi, ashersky, PPS, Hydrad
scummish interactions: WW, yuma, BA
nullish interactions: Box, chairs, liopoil, Xerxes

I really want to lynch off-wagon today though, I think there's at least one scum to be found there. Vote: yuma

[pingpongsam]

Faust, who visited you N0?

Yuma is the one person I lean strong town on. I do not give ashersky a pass for hammering. His no comment hammer looked very cred grabby. He did hammer so null for now. Still have to reread with the knowledge volt was scum.

I am in a tough spot with dice. Really I needed to be the first to roll. I can either play stored and be out if dice completely or roll and play the one die remaining in my supply.

[faust]

By the way, the dice stealer is by far our biggest threat. I really, really hope we lynch him today.

I targeted Mail-Mi. I can give my reason if you guys like.

These two posts both read disingenuous to me.

[faust]

Never mind. Thinking about it, I guess it means the attack on mail-mi has invalidated his rolls.

Vote: BA

What do you mean, "the attack on mail-mi"? Do you know something we don't?

[XerxesPraelor]

Faust, who visited you N0?

Yuma is the one person I lean strong town on. I do not give ashersky a pass for hammering. His no comment hammer looked very cred grabby. He did hammer so null for now. Still have to reread with the knowledge volt was scum.

I am in a tough spot with dice. Really I needed to be the first to roll. I can either play stored and be out if dice completely or roll and play the one die remaining in my supply.

I bet the same person as visited you.

I think you should play your stored die, if it hasn't been played already - the person who targeted me last night should target, and you can get dice that way.

[faust]

By the way, mail-mi it says you were attacked this turn in the opening day post. Do you know what happened?

Nevermind, just saw this. Unvote for now.

[faust]

Faust, who visited you N0?

Yuma is the one person I lean strong town on. I do not give ashersky a pass for hammering. His no comment hammer looked very cred grabby. He did hammer so null for now. Still have to reread with the knowledge volt was scum.

I am in a tough spot with dice. Really I needed to be the first to roll. I can either play stored and be out if dice completely or roll and play the one die remaining in my supply.

I bet the same person as visited you.

I think you should play your stored die, if it hasn't been played already - the person who targeted me last night should target, and you can get dice that way.

This is already super close to mass-claiming territory. Why don't we do it already?

[faust]

Yeah we'd need the 12, 9, 8, 6, and either 3 & 1 or the 4. Sucks even more that mail-mi's numbers don't count, yet can't be used by anyone else. I guess he is pretty much an IC now though, unless mafia had the troll attack one of its own members (which is possible).

Is it confirmed that we can't play mail-mi's dice?

[faust]

This is actually making me suspect faust and mail-mi - mail-mi played his dice despite getting hit, using up his stored dice, and mail-mi is such a good choice to hit that I wonder how scum knew who to choose. Mail-mi is absolutely not an IC.

How does this make you suspect me?

...

Wait, I know.

[XerxesPraelor]

Never mind. Thinking about it, I guess it means the attack on mail-mi has invalidated his rolls.

Vote: BA

What do you mean, "the attack on mail-mi"? Do you know something we don't?

At the beginning of the day, the mods posted that mail-mi was attacked. I did only notice it when BA pointed it out and I think scum is more likely to know it's there, so I'm also fine with:

vote: BA

Because we don't want to inform scum about who has the PRs, but I do think it's useful for town to know what powers exist.

PPE: Actually, I just remembered something - not suspicious anymore.

[faust]

Alright, so this is what we do: We mass claim. The order will be this:

yuma
Witherweaver
Beyond Awesome
chairs
liopoil
Hydrad
Ichimaru Gin
ashersky
pingpongsam
faust
XerxesPraelor
mail-mi

We claim: Role, who we targeted, what happened to us. Does anyone have a problem with this?

[faust]

Faust, who visited you N0?

Yuma is the one person I lean strong town on. I do not give ashersky a pass for hammering. His no comment hammer looked very cred grabby. He did hammer so null for now. Still have to reread with the knowledge volt was scum.

I am in a tough spot with dice. Really I needed to be the first to roll. I can either play stored and be out if dice completely or roll and play the one die remaining in my supply.

If the die in your supply has a value that has not yet been played, you might consider claiming it.

[pingpongsam]

My stored die value has not yet been played. If I do play it I must discard my last remaining supply die. At that point all of my dice will be exhausted. The alternative is to chance rolling the supply die. If it is an already played number I think I can still play my stored die if I am not mistaken. I need someone to confirm that before I attempt it, though.

[XerxesPraelor]

I do. The role that targeted me is very good, and we really don't want the person to be killed. If we mass-claim, and there are no doctors, then we'll lose the use of it for the rest of the game. If that's you, and you still think it's a good idea, then I'm on board. Otherwise, I think we should give the PR at least one more night to target PPS or someone else who needs dice.

[pingpongsam]

Also, no one else roll until I get my roll in due to the limiting circumstances of my ability to roll a worthwhile number.

[pingpongsam]

Ceres, do you know who targeted Faust N0?

[pingpongsam]

Xerxes, not Ceres,

[pingpongsam]

As I understand the rules I can roll and ignore my supply die and then play my stored die whereas if I outright play the stored die I lose the supply die to discard so it seems prudent to roll the supply die and see what I get.

[pingpongsam]

Awaiting confirmation of the above in my QT.

[pingpongsam]

I was wrong. I can either roll and play the supply die or I can play the stored die and discard the supply. With that knowledge I now play my stored die.

Play: 8

Also, now that is done I can say that on D1 I rolled three dice and all of them turned up 8 which i find evidence of possible tampering.

[XerxesPraelor]

Depends what you mean by targeted. I don't know who visited him.

[faust]

So five players left, 30 points left to reach. Noone else roll, I want to check something first.

[pingpongsam]

Depends what you mean by targeted. I don't know who visited him.

Yeah, wrong use of words. Visited was the correct word. Let me rephrase the question. Did you know before D2 that Faust had been visited N0?

[Witherweaver]

<b>Play: 12</b>

[Witherweaver]

Sigh.  Play: 12

[faust]

So, probabilities.

We need 30 points, from 5 players. This can be reached via different means.

1) Play 12,9,6,4. Sum is 31 > 30
2) Play 12,9,6,2,1 Sum is 30

So for every roll, we have four outcomes:

A) A die we absolutely need (12,9,6) is rolled.
B) 4 is rolled AND not A
C) either 2 or 1 is rolled AND not (A or B)
D) not (A or B or C)

Let n be the number of dice each players rolls, k_A the number of dice in A we already have, k_B the number of dice in B we already have, k_C the number of dice in C we already have. The probabilities for A - D are:

p(A) = sum(i=0 to n-1) of ((9+k_A)/12)^i * (k_A/12)
p(B) = sum(i=0 to n-1) of ((8+k_A+k_B)/12)^i * (k_B/12)
p(C) = sum(i=0 to n-1) of ((6+k_A+k_B+k_C)/12)^i * (k_C/12)
p(D) = 1 - p(A) - p(B) - p(C)

Scenarios of success are:

I) Three players play 12,9,6, one player plays 4
II) Three players play 12,9,6, two players play 1,2

I fear I won't have time to complete this right now. Should be able to calculate it soonish though.

PPE: I guess WW's roll makes things easier.

[pingpongsam]

I have to weight WW's roll as distinctly not scummy.

[faust]

Any opinions at all on mass claiming?

[Witherweaver]

Any opinions at all on mass claiming?

I do not like it.

[Jimmmmm]

pingpongsam plays an 8
Score: 30

Witherweaver plays a 12
Score: 42

[Witherweaver]

Oh, hey, I got Box and BA confused when I was posting last night.  I was thinking Box was the one that seemed very scummy yesterday and I was voting for but was killed over the night.  Really it was BA, and Box was killed over the night.

[Hydrad]

I'm up for claiming as a curiosity aspect but the point someone brought up that if we have no doctors scares me now. If we end up having no doctors any PRs we have could easily disappear really fast.

Also I believe pps with his triple 8s as I got double 7s today. I realize this info could hurt me but I don't think any roles can hurt me by knowing what I rolled so I figured I would see if there's another possible attack in being able to make all your die roll the same

[liopoil]

FOS: early rollers. Some people have fewer dice and so would prefer to roll early. Scum OTOH, would love nothing more than to roll early.

Anyway, I'm rolling now. I might not get another chance to be on and play something until this afternoon. I have not read everything too thoroughly yet, I will do that this afternoon too.

[liopoil]

Play: 6

[Jimmmmm]

liopoil plays a 6
Score: 48

[pingpongsam]

FOS: early rollers. Some people have fewer dice and so would prefer to roll early. Scum OTOH, would love nothing more than to roll early.

Maybe, if I were scum I would like to see what got played and then maybe had an unfortunate roll wherein I was forced to play an already played value. However, since we continue to see applicable rolls coming in there is some credence to this FOS. Also, after thinking on mail-mi's rolls I do have to say it could be a scum action; I would feel more strongly if both rolls were high numbers. Making sure 2 decent weights are out of the pool would be an excellent scum maneuver.

All that said, I am strongly of the opinion that dice rolls are largely WIFOM. Strong/weak rolls can affirm town/scum reads but I think it can be dangerous to let them form the read. There is far more to be garnered from player interactions and night actions.  As such, I am still opposed to mass claiming.

[pingpongsam]

I guess I am confused how people seem to know how many HP the Orc has.

[XerxesPraelor]

Depends what you mean by targeted. I don't know who visited him.

Yeah, wrong use of words. Visited was the correct word. Let me rephrase the question. Did you know before D2 that Faust had been visited N0?

Before today, yes.

[Hydrad]

Whatfo you mean by Faust being visited N0. It sounds like your saying you know that Faust was visited on night zero? Am I understanding that correctly?

[Witherweaver]

I guess I am confused how people seem to know how many HP the Orc has.

It was in the thread opening message.  "Target: 60"

[Witherweaver]

FOS: early rollers. Some people have fewer dice and so would prefer to roll early. Scum OTOH, would love nothing more than to roll early.

Maybe, if I were scum I would like to see what got played and then maybe had an unfortunate roll wherein I was forced to play an already played value. However, since we continue to see applicable rolls coming in there is some credence to this FOS. Also, after thinking on mail-mi's rolls I do have to say it could be a scum action; I would feel more strongly if both rolls were high numbers. Making sure 2 decent weights are out of the pool would be an excellent scum maneuver.

All that said, I am strongly of the opinion that dice rolls are largely WIFOM. Strong/weak rolls can affirm town/scum reads but I think it can be dangerous to let them form the read. There is far more to be garnered from player interactions and night actions.  As such, I am still opposed to mass claiming.

I guess what we have to think about is if the Orc's attack on Mail-Mi was random or targeted by scum.  It does say scum have the ability to control the monsters.

[pingpongsam]

Whatfo you mean by Faust being visited N0. It sounds like your saying you know that Faust was visited on night zero? Am I understanding that correctly?

I can confirm that faust was visited N0. I was visited N1. There is good reason to believe someone will be visited each night and whoever is visited will be informed of who has been previously visited.

faust made claims D1 that he knew XP to be town. Depending on faust's specific game state on N0 it is not impossible for faust to have determined the alignment of XP on N0. It looks to me to be a big leap for N0 game states as I understand them but it is certainly plausible. I believe that it would be a really bold and probably stupid scum ploy if XP/faust are scum partners. I would say that I tend to favor the possibility of XP aligning Town stronger than faust aligning Town but on the whole I feel I would be very hard pressed to lynch either of them today.

[Witherweaver]

Yeah we'd need the 12, 9, 8, 6, and either 3 & 1 or the 4. Sucks even more that mail-mi's numbers don't count, yet can't be used by anyone else. I guess he is pretty much an IC now though, unless mafia had the troll attack one of its own members (which is possible).

Is it confirmed that we can't play mail-mi's dice?

I want to know this.

Also, it's illegal for Mail-Mi (or anyone) to <b>Play:</b> something not true, right?

[pingpongsam]

FOS: early rollers. Some people have fewer dice and so would prefer to roll early. Scum OTOH, would love nothing more than to roll early.

Maybe, if I were scum I would like to see what got played and then maybe had an unfortunate roll wherein I was forced to play an already played value. However, since we continue to see applicable rolls coming in there is some credence to this FOS. Also, after thinking on mail-mi's rolls I do have to say it could be a scum action; I would feel more strongly if both rolls were high numbers. Making sure 2 decent weights are out of the pool would be an excellent scum maneuver.

All that said, I am strongly of the opinion that dice rolls are largely WIFOM. Strong/weak rolls can affirm town/scum reads but I think it can be dangerous to let them form the read. There is far more to be garnered from player interactions and night actions.  As such, I am still opposed to mass claiming.

I guess what we have to think about is if the Orc's attack on Mail-Mi was random or targeted by scum.  It does say scum have the ability to control the monsters.

I believe that scum will understand the effect the attack will have on the target. mail-mi was a good target regardless of his alignment. I view mail-mi very null as a result. If he is town then scum know his power now. Surely he was doctored last night (were he town) and thus was a terrible Mafia target by any stretch.

[ashersky]

unvote

[pingpongsam]

I targeted yuma last night for medical support. That said, I see no utility in revealing this information because our efforts obviously failed when Box died. I would say it is only pertinent if Box received 2 votes. Keep in mind that our votes potentially made one shot doctors for last night only. If any doctors were created they missed the mafia kill target. I suppose it would be slightly more than worthless if anyone claimed they were made a doctor last night.

[Hydrad]

I targeted witherweaver.

Also this may be a bad move by me but I will say that I visited Faust N0 but I don't believe I have an effect that would tell people who got visited.

I would like to give information on my role as it might help us win today but as I am new I will let you guys decide if I should claim or not. One thing though if I could suggest no roles for a bit until we decide since it may help us.

It's not a big thing but every little bit counts I guess

[XerxesPraelor]

PPS, you're misunderstanding. What he knows about me you do too.

[Beyond Awesome]

I am actually finding Hydrad's 7 more scummier the more I think about it. This was also the same value he rolled D1. And, D2, a roll of 7 does nothing.

[faust]

Any opinions at all on mass claiming?

I do not like it.

Reasons, please.

[Witherweaver]

Any opinions at all on mass claiming?

I do not like it.

Reasons, please.

I don't really know how to give reasons without giving anything away.  But I think it would be detrimental. 

[XerxesPraelor]

I am actually finding Hydrad's 7 more scummier the more I think about it. This was also the same value he rolled D1. And, D2, a roll of 7 does nothing.

Why do bring this up?
Maybe because you have the(?) PR that makes people roll only what they rolled yesterday.

[faust]

You do get my point that it will make it very easy to catch scum?

I am certain that we have at least 3 roles with night actions that can be confirmed. So claiming would yiled 3 ICs.

Do you really think that the negative implications for your role outweigh this?

[Beyond Awesome]

I am actually finding Hydrad's 7 more scummier the more I think about it. This was also the same value he rolled D1. And, D2, a roll of 7 does nothing.

Why do bring this up?
Maybe because you have the(?) PR that makes people roll only what they rolled yesterday.

I have been observing everyone's rolls and comparing rolls that stand out to me to D1 rolls. For instance, lio got a 8 on D1 and 6 on D2.

[faust]

You do get my point that it will make it very easy to catch scum?

I am certain that we have at least 3 roles with night actions that can be confirmed. So claiming would yiled 3 ICs.

Do you really think that the negative implications for your role outweigh this?

Directed at WW of course.

[faust]

Vote: BA

[Witherweaver]

You do get my point that it will make it very easy to catch scum?

I am certain that we have at least 3 roles with night actions that can be confirmed. So claiming would yiled 3 ICs.

Do you really think that the negative implications for your role outweigh this?

I seem to be missing something going on with the night actions.  How do we know those role actions come from town?

[Hydrad]

Ya as I said before I'm not sure if bad luck or tampering was involved. I rolled 2 dice to try and have a high chance of helping out but both my dice rolled 7s

[faust]

You do get my point that it will make it very easy to catch scum?

I am certain that we have at least 3 roles with night actions that can be confirmed. So claiming would yiled 3 ICs.

Do you really think that the negative implications for your role outweigh this?

I seem to be missing something going on with the night actions.  How do we know those role actions come from town?

We know two actions scum has: Thief and Reroller. There are only two scum left. It's plausible that they don't have any other powers. Plus, the roles I have in mind don't make much sense as scum roles.

[Hydrad]

vote : BA

The more I look at him the scum meow it seems so this is my vote for now

[faust]

Play: 9

Almost there!

[Beyond Awesome]

How many votes is that on me? Also, can you guys please give reasons for voting for me? Thanks.

[chairs]

Hi.

My target last night for doctor-y things was Ichimaru Gin.

[Hydrad]

All we need is a 4 right?

[Jimmmmm]

faust plays a 9
Score: 57

[faust]

How many votes is that on me? Also, can you guys please give reasons for voting for me? Thanks.

You're scummy. Scumhunting based solely on rolls is scummy. You opening D2 with a roll is scummy. You claiming to have been targeted by the Thief is scummy.

[faust]

All we need is a 4 right?

That, or a 2 and a 1.

[Beyond Awesome]

faust plays a 9
Score: 57

Awesome!

[faust]

How many votes is that on me? Also, can you guys please give reasons for voting for me? Thanks.

You're scummy. Scumhunting based solely on rolls is scummy. You opening D2 with a roll is scummy. You claiming to have been targeted by the Thief is scummy.

Oh, I forgot: You knowing that mail-mi was attacked is scummy.

[faust]

faust plays a 9
Score: 57

Awesome!

It's even Beyond Awesome....

[Beyond Awesome]

How many votes is that on me? Also, can you guys please give reasons for voting for me? Thanks.

You're scummy. Scumhunting based solely on rolls is scummy. You opening D2 with a roll is scummy. You claiming to have been targeted by the Thief is scummy.

Okay, I can see where you are coming from.

However, I was targeted by the thief, and as a result have nearly no dice left, so I needed to be one of the people to roll first.

[Beyond Awesome]

How many votes is that on me? Also, can you guys please give reasons for voting for me? Thanks.

You're scummy. Scumhunting based solely on rolls is scummy. You opening D2 with a roll is scummy. You claiming to have been targeted by the Thief is scummy.

Oh, I forgot: You knowing that mail-mi was attacked is scummy.

That was in the thread for opening D2. I am sure I was not the only town person to have read that.

[XerxesPraelor]

You do get my point that it will make it very easy to catch scum?

I am certain that we have at least 3 roles with night actions that can be confirmed. So claiming would yiled 3 ICs.

Do you really think that the negative implications for your role outweigh this?

I seem to be missing something going on with the night actions.  How do we know those role actions come from town?

We don't, unless there's specific confirmation, which I'm guessing there is for maximum 2 roles. I'm also very sure that whoever targeted me last night is town, but together it still is only 2 ICs, plus our Power Roles die.

PPE: yes; or a two and a 1

PPE 2: ditto everything Faust said

PPE 3 (lots of posts): that's only a little scummy, but yeah

[faust]

How many votes is that on me? Also, can you guys please give reasons for voting for me? Thanks.

You're scummy. Scumhunting based solely on rolls is scummy. You opening D2 with a roll is scummy. You claiming to have been targeted by the Thief is scummy.

Oh, I forgot: You knowing that mail-mi was attacked is scummy.

That was in the thread for opening D2. I am sure I was not the only town person to have read that.

Okay then, who is the other town player who knew it?

[Beyond Awesome]

How many votes is that on me? Also, can you guys please give reasons for voting for me? Thanks.

You're scummy. Scumhunting based solely on rolls is scummy. You opening D2 with a roll is scummy. You claiming to have been targeted by the Thief is scummy.

Oh, I forgot: You knowing that mail-mi was attacked is scummy.

That was in the thread for opening D2. I am sure I was not the only town person to have read that.

Okay then, who is the other town player who knew it?

Anyone else who read it. I always read what the mod posts. How does that make me scummy???

[faust]

In your next post, everyone please state: Did you target me on N0? Did you target me on N1 (other than with the Doc thingy)?

[faust]

How many votes is that on me? Also, can you guys please give reasons for voting for me? Thanks.

You're scummy. Scumhunting based solely on rolls is scummy. You opening D2 with a roll is scummy. You claiming to have been targeted by the Thief is scummy.

Oh, I forgot: You knowing that mail-mi was attacked is scummy.

That was in the thread for opening D2. I am sure I was not the only town person to have read that.

Okay then, who is the other town player who knew it?

Anyone else who read it. I always read what the mod posts. How does that make me scummy???

Because scum would know it.

[Beyond Awesome]

That's not a good argument. As town, we should all read what the mods post because we don't know what can come up.

[Hydrad]

I targeted Faust N0

Also I did read that mail was targeted

[chairs]

Play: 1

[faust]

That's not a good argument. As town, we should all read what the mods post because we don't know what can come up.

You are agreeing though that the probability that town realized that is <100%? And that the probability that scum knows it is 100%? So logically, knowing it DOES make you more scummy.

Sometimes it's just scummy to pay attention. I know it sucks, but that's how it is.

[Witherweaver]

You do get my point that it will make it very easy to catch scum?

I am certain that we have at least 3 roles with night actions that can be confirmed. So claiming would yiled 3 ICs.

Do you really think that the negative implications for your role outweigh this?

I seem to be missing something going on with the night actions.  How do we know those role actions come from town?

We know two actions scum has: Thief and Reroller. There are only two scum left. It's plausible that they don't have any other powers. Plus, the roles I have in mind don't make much sense as scum roles.

I see.  But it's worth pointing out (again) that roles and alignment are not correlated in this game. 

[faust]

That's not a good argument. As town, we should all read what the mods post because we don't know what can come up.

On another note, why didn't you answer my question?

[Beyond Awesome]

That's not a good argument. As town, we should all read what the mods post because we don't know what can come up.

You are agreeing though that the probability that town realized that is <100%? And that the probability that scum knows it is 100%? So logically, knowing it DOES make you more scummy.

Sometimes it's just scummy to pay attention. I know it sucks, but that's how it is.

Or, it can make you very town for paying attention. WIFOM

[Beyond Awesome]

That's not a good argument. As town, we should all read what the mods post because we don't know what can come up.

On another note, why didn't you answer my question?

What questions is that?

[faust]

I see.  But it's worth pointing out (again) that roles and alignment are not correlated in this game.

Are you fine with following my request?

[Witherweaver]

Can someone summarize what the public knowledge night actions have been?

[chairs]

It's not a 4, but at least now all we need is a 2.  How many people do we have left to roll?

[faust]

That's not a good argument. As town, we should all read what the mods post because we don't know what can come up.

On another note, why didn't you answer my question?

What questions is that?

In your next post, everyone please state: Did you target me on N0? Did you target me on N1 (other than with the Doc thingy)?

[faust]

It's not a 4, but at least now all we need is a 2.  How many people do we have left to roll?

1. Checking who it is...

[Witherweaver]

I see.  But it's worth pointing out (again) that roles and alignment are not correlated in this game.

Are you fine with following my request?

I would if everyone else wanted to.

[faust]

Xerxes, I think. Well, that's a relief.

[faust]

I see.  But it's worth pointing out (again) that roles and alignment are not correlated in this game.

Are you fine with following my request?

I would if everyone else wanted to.

Vote: WW

[Witherweaver]

I see.  But it's worth pointing out (again) that roles and alignment are not correlated in this game.

Are you fine with following my request?

I would if everyone else wanted to.

Vote: WW

You're wrong~

[faust]

I see.  But it's worth pointing out (again) that roles and alignment are not correlated in this game.

Are you fine with following my request?

I would if everyone else wanted to.

Vote: WW

You're wrong~

Why don't you just answer my question?

[Witherweaver]

I see.  But it's worth pointing out (again) that roles and alignment are not correlated in this game.

Are you fine with following my request?

I would if everyone else wanted to.

Vote: WW

You're wrong~

Why don't you just answer my question?

About claiming?  I did?  Are you talking about targeting?  I did not target you Night 0, I targeted you with the Medical Support thing Night 1, but not with any power.

[faust]

I see.  But it's worth pointing out (again) that roles and alignment are not correlated in this game.

Are you fine with following my request?

I would if everyone else wanted to.

Vote: WW

You're wrong~

Why don't you just answer my question?

About claiming?  I did?  Are you talking about targeting?  I did not target you Night 0, I targeted you with the Medical Support thing Night 1, but not with any power.

Thank you.

[Jimmmmm]

chairs plays a 1
Score: 58

Vote Count 2.1

Beyond Awesome (1): XerxesPraelor
chairs (2): mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin
Witherweaver (1): faust

not voting (eight): chairs, yuma, Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome, liopoil, Hydrad, pingpongsam, ashersky

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 9 at 11pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 11 at 11pm forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 58

[Beyond Awesome]

I believe Hydrad also voted for me.

[XerxesPraelor]

Play: 2

[Hydrad]

Nice we did it! As long as scum don't reroller or something

[Beyond Awesome]

Play: 2

Awesome! Has anyone not rolled yet? If so, please don't roll. We haven't seen the dice re-rolling ability used yet as far as I know, so we may still need you to roll later on.

[Jimmmmm]

XerxesPraelor plays a 2
Score: 60

[Jimmmmm]

I believe Hydrad also voted for me.

If you're referring to #810 it is not correct syntax, and as per the OP is not counted. I've been less strict on other actions as long as they're unambiguous, but for votes I have to go by the book.

[faust]

Play: 2

Awesome! Has anyone not rolled yet? If so, please don't roll. We haven't seen the dice re-rolling ability used yet as far as I know, so we may still need you to roll later on.

I still get no answer? It's a simple question, you know.

[chairs]

In your next post, everyone please state: Did you target me on N0? Did you target me on N1 (other than with the Doc thingy)?

I didn't target you.

[pingpongsam]

How many votes is that on me? Also, can you guys please give reasons for voting for me? Thanks.

You're scummy. Scumhunting based solely on rolls is scummy. You opening D2 with a roll is scummy. You claiming to have been targeted by the Thief is scummy.

Oh, I forgot: You knowing that mail-mi was attacked is scummy.

That was in the thread for opening D2. I am sure I was not the only town person to have read that.

Okay then, who is the other town player who knew it?

Me! Knowing that mail-mi got attacked was a function of reading the 1st post of the day by Jimmmmm and is almost ridiculous to base a scum read on the fact that anyone bothered to read that. when mail-mi's rolls didn't count I immediately understood that it was a result of his being attacked.

[Beyond Awesome]

Play: 2

Awesome! Has anyone not rolled yet? If so, please don't roll. We haven't seen the dice re-rolling ability used yet as far as I know, so we may still need you to roll later on.

I still get no answer? It's a simple question, you know.

Again, can you please tell me what your question is? Thank you.

[pingpongsam]

Play: 2

Awesome! Has anyone not rolled yet? If so, please don't roll. We haven't seen the dice re-rolling ability used yet as far as I know, so we may still need you to roll later on.

I still get no answer? It's a simple question, you know.

I am assuming playing stored dice is immune to reroll attacks so my 8 should stand.

[pingpongsam]

Cany anyone point me to where we have confirmation of the Orc's HP?

As of right now, I am looking at anyone who thinks they know what it takes to kill the troll as having information the rest of us don't.

[faust]

Play: 2

Awesome! Has anyone not rolled yet? If so, please don't roll. We haven't seen the dice re-rolling ability used yet as far as I know, so we may still need you to roll later on.

I still get no answer? It's a simple question, you know.

Again, can you please tell me what your question is? Thank you.

Again:

That's not a good argument. As town, we should all read what the mods post because we don't know what can come up.

On another note, why didn't you answer my question?

What questions is that?

In your next post, everyone please state: Did you target me on N0? Did you target me on N1 (other than with the Doc thingy)?

[Beyond Awesome]

No. I did not target you.

[faust]

Orc target:

Target: 60
Score: 0

[Witherweaver]

The

"Target: 60
Score: 0"

part

The 13 companions emerged from their tents. Another long Day of adventure lay before them.

BoxOfDog faced the others with suspicion. They had all survived the Night. Perhaps Voltaire had been the only evildoer among them.

Suddenly BoxOfDog felt a sharp pain in his chest. He looked down to see an ugly blade stuck through him. The blade was pulled out of his back, and he fell to the ground. A horrible-looking Orc stood triumphantly behind him. Without hesitation, the Orc ran to mail-mi and rammed his blade toward him as well. mail-mi blocked with his arm, which began to spit out blood.

Witherweaver ran over to BoxOfDog's corpse with the Legacy Stone, which began to glow green.

The twelve who remained faced the Orc.

BoxOfDog has been killed. He was a Vanilla Townie.

An Orc has attacked!
Rule: Only the first instance of each value played counts.

The Orc has attacked mail-mi!



Vote Count 2.0

not voting (12): ashersky, chairs, yuma, mail-mi, faust, XerxesPraelor, Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome, Ichimaru Gin, liopoil, Hydrad, pingpongsam

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 9 at 11pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 11 at 11pm forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 0


Day 2 has begun!

Thread unlocked.

[pingpongsam]

I have not targeted faust at any point in any way.

[XerxesPraelor]

I didn't target Faust N1, but I did N0.

[pingpongsam]

Geez, you guys who caught that part about the Orc's HP must be paying scum-level attention because I missed it after 3 or 4 rereads.

[pingpongsam]

PPS, you're misunderstanding. What he knows about me you do too.

I don't think I am misunderstanding. I don't know anything about you. I can make some assumptions but they would be very dangerous ones to make. I guess a question I might ask is whether or no you have targeted me?

[faust]

Targeted me N0: Xerxes, Hydrad

Targeted me N1: -

Did not target: PPS, WW, BA, chairs

Not answered yet: ashersky, yuma, mail-mi, Ichimaru, liopoil

[pingpongsam]

Xerxes, targeted/visited. did you do either and if so which ones.

[XerxesPraelor]

I targeted Faust N0 and PPS N1. I haven't visited anyone.

[Witherweaver]

What is visiting?

[pingpongsam]

What is visiting?

There were things that happened in my QT last night. The verbiage used in that QT was visiting. It was indicated that I was being visited N1 and that faust had been visited N0. Thus, it appears when XP targets you at night you get visited. The details of the visit are not to be divulged at this time. While it is highly, highly unlikely that XP is scum I cannot 100% confirm him as being Town. I cannot say why faust seems to think XP has 100% town certainty. However, because faust did qualify XP as town it is unlikely that faust is not also town.

Barring some substantial evidence to the contrary there is no way I could be moved to lynch either of them today.

[faust]

What is visiting?

There were things that happened in my QT last night. The verbiage used in that QT was visiting. It was indicated that I was being visited N1 and that faust had been visited N0. Thus, it appears when XP targets you at night you get visited. The details of the visit are not to be divulged at this time. While it is highly, highly unlikely that XP is scum I cannot 100% confirm him as being Town. I cannot say why faust seems to think XP has 100% town certainty. However, because faust did qualify XP as town it is unlikely that faust is not also town.

Barring some substantial evidence to the contrary there is no way I could be moved to lynch either of them today.

I gave it 95% certainty I think on the last Day.

[faust]

Xerxes, do you have any information about a role called "The Advisor"?

[Witherweaver]

What is visiting?

There were things that happened in my QT last night. The verbiage used in that QT was visiting. It was indicated that I was being visited N1 and that faust had been visited N0. Thus, it appears when XP targets you at night you get visited. The details of the visit are not to be divulged at this time. While it is highly, highly unlikely that XP is scum I cannot 100% confirm him as being Town. I cannot say why faust seems to think XP has 100% town certainty. However, because faust did qualify XP as town it is unlikely that faust is not also town.

Barring some substantial evidence to the contrary there is no way I could be moved to lynch either of them today.

Okay, but Xerxes said he Targeted but did not Visit.

[XerxesPraelor]

BTW, I'm pretty sure that both the dice rerolling and mail-mi getting stopped are specific to the monster we fight, and aren't scum powers.

Xerxes, do you have any information about a role called "The Advisor"?

That's me. (Not the 'the' part, but yeah)

[Witherweaver]

BTW, I'm pretty sure that both the dice rerolling and mail-mi getting stopped are specific to the monster we fight, and aren't scum powers.

Xerxes, do you have any information about a role called "The Advisor"?

That's me. (Not the 'the' part, but yeah)

But there were two rerolls yesterday, right?  One on Faust, and another when the Troll hit you.  So one sounds like a PR, the other like a Monster ability.

[faust]

I am still in favor of a mass claim, but if everyone answers my question, that will already help a lot.

[Witherweaver]

Notably, I was digging through the Monster Madness Mod QT.  There is a role that Chairs (scum) had in that game:

Once per day, he could select a player that had already Played a die.  That die, and any that are stored, are discarded and rolled again.  The target can then choose to do with the new results.

It only says the played/stored dice are rerolled, not all the dice that were rolled, which is what people are claiming here.

There was also a townish sounding version which spent a die to give another player the option to reroll his played die.

There is also something which seems similar to Mail-Mi's role.  If you didn't roll a die the previous day, then for each die rolled, an additional die will be rolled not from the supply.  Though, Mail-Mi's seems to be about playing and not rolling.

[XerxesPraelor]

BTW, I'm pretty sure that both the dice rerolling and mail-mi getting stopped are specific to the monster we fight, and aren't scum powers.

Xerxes, do you have any information about a role called "The Advisor"?

That's me. (Not the 'the' part, but yeah)

But there were two rerolls yesterday, right?  One on Faust, and another when the Troll hit you.  So one sounds like a PR, the other like a Monster ability.

Faust wasn't attacked?

[Witherweaver]

BTW, I'm pretty sure that both the dice rerolling and mail-mi getting stopped are specific to the monster we fight, and aren't scum powers.

Xerxes, do you have any information about a role called "The Advisor"?

That's me. (Not the 'the' part, but yeah)

But there were two rerolls yesterday, right?  One on Faust, and another when the Troll hit you.  So one sounds like a PR, the other like a Monster ability.

Faust wasn't attacked?

I didn't see a message saying that he was.  He just posted that his dice were rerolled and played another one.

Faust?

[Hydrad]

I feel like we are getting really close to a mass claim anyways with people keep giving hints about their role. At this rate we might know everyones role soon except for scum.

this is making me support fausts mass role claim idea

[Hydrad]

also since I think it was missed i'll just post it again

vote : BA

[Witherweaver]

also since I think it was missed i'll just post it again

vote : BA

Syntax must be exact:

4. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName.  Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax!  Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.

[Witherweaver]

So like this:

Vote: BA

[Hydrad]

ah thanks I didn't realize i was doing it slightly wrong

Vote: BA

[Hydrad]

BTW, I'm pretty sure that both the dice rerolling and mail-mi getting stopped are specific to the monster we fight, and aren't scum powers.

Xerxes, do you have any information about a role called "The Advisor"?

That's me. (Not the 'the' part, but yeah)

If its possible would you be able to say what the Advisor is? since it seems a couple people know is it fair if the rest of us know also? Unless you feel there is a reason you should keep it secret.

[Beyond Awesome]

BTW, I'm pretty sure that both the dice rerolling and mail-mi getting stopped are specific to the monster we fight, and aren't scum powers.

Xerxes, do you have any information about a role called "The Advisor"?

That's me. (Not the 'the' part, but yeah)

If its possible would you be able to say what the Advisor is? since it seems a couple people know is it fair if the rest of us know also? Unless you feel there is a reason you should keep it secret.

Why do you want to know? Him stating exactly what his power is can give scum more info.

[Hydrad]

BTW, I'm pretty sure that both the dice rerolling and mail-mi getting stopped are specific to the monster we fight, and aren't scum powers.

Xerxes, do you have any information about a role called "The Advisor"?

That's me. (Not the 'the' part, but yeah)

If its possible would you be able to say what the Advisor is? since it seems a couple people know is it fair if the rest of us know also? Unless you feel there is a reason you should keep it secret.

Why do you want to know? Him stating exactly what his power is can give scum more info.

i guess there isn't really a reason i need to know other then curiosity. So as much information as he can without helping scum. which is probably none. But i still figured I should ask

[XerxesPraelor]

Basically, I target someone, and they get visited by someone else. The visits would still happen if I died, which is why I am able to not keep this part secret.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 2.2

Beyond Awesome (3): XerxesPraelor, Hydrad, Witherweaver
chairs (2): mail-mi, Ichimaru Gin
Witherweaver (1): faust

not voting (12): ashersky, chairs, yuma, Beyond Awesome, liopoil, pingpongsam

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 9 at 11pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 11 at 11pm forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 60

[pingpongsam]

Sounds like XP doesn't know the bit about the adviser. It sounds like he might not even know who the visitor is. I had assumed XP was the visitor but now I see that he is not.

I am still against mass-claiming for today. I think there is mileage to be gained from what Town currently knows that scum does not. I am noticing some significant inter relations today but I still need a reread wherein volt is sure scum and XP/faust likely town, I feel I could conceivably find an obvscum with that perspective.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I did not target faust N0 or N1.

I am open to massclaiming--especially since so many people have pretty much claimed anyway.

[pingpongsam]

Reread D1. Wow, so I totally get what is going on with XP and faust and now feel very good that they are both Town. Extremely unlikely either are scum.


So I have a 5-tiered scumometer:


Might as well lynch now - - ashersky

Sure does look like scum - - Beyond Awesome, Ichimaru

Nullolicious - - Withers, Hydrad

Not so null but no Townie of the year either - - liopoil, chairs

Club Town - - faust, XP, pps

[Witherweaver]

Fun thought of the day: if we blitzlynch right now scum won't have time to mess with the Orc!

[Witherweaver]

But I have an issue with the reads slightly, in that it's hard to see both BA and Ash being scum.  I can see Ash hammer his partner, but I have trouble seeing him bus both his partners two days in a row.

[Hydrad]

I mentioned chairs being a lurker but it seems many people are also forgetting yuma as well.

I think i would put my top 4 scum reads as: asher, BA, chairs, yuma

Town is : faust, gin, and xp is getting really close

Rest is null

[Ichimaru Gin]

Reread D1. Wow, so I totally get what is going on with XP and faust and now feel very good that they are both Town. Extremely unlikely either are scum.


So I have a 5-tiered scumometer:


Might as well lynch now - - ashersky

Sure does look like scum - - Beyond Awesome, Ichimaru

Nullolicious - - Withers, Hydrad

Not so null but no Townie of the year either - - liopoil, chairs

Club Town - - faust, XP, pps

This reads post is kind of a joke. Seriously, Ash is certainly capable of hammering his partner, but there's a world of OMGUS in there.

Me and BA. Look, I thought Volt was scum from the moment he started tunneling me. I stuck with my reads and even put in what I wanted to happen if he was succesful in lynching me--saying you guys should certainly kill him.

I 100% think we should lynch someone off wagon today.

PPS's post #297 looks pretty hedgy on Volt.



vote: PPS

Bah. Except you helped put Voltaire at L-1 so unvote and correctly called his behavior. This reads post is still way off though.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also, I haven't played with faust in a while, but does he normally pick a person and like push them hard pretty much the whole day?

D1 it was me, and now I see him doing exactly the same thing with BA.

[pingpongsam]

Ichi, why do you insist on making sense of my reads? There are lines yet you refuse to look between them.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ichi, why do you insist on making sense of my reads? There are lines yet you refuse to look between them.

Ok. I don't entirely understand this comment.

I guess I just don't see any of your scumreads as scummy. If you're town (which I feel pretty sure about) putting me as likely scum just seems wildly bizarre to me here. And again on BA, I see faust pushing him so hard, and it makes me suspicious.

I mean, faust pushed me super hard D1 and then backed off to switch to Volt with like a one sentence explanation.

[chairs]

vote: Beyond Awesome.

[Beyond Awesome]

vote: Beyond Awesome.

May I ask why?

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: Beyond Awesome.

May I ask why?

I think most people on your wagon are scum trying to get an easy mislynch.

[Hydrad]

Honestly i'm personally starting to see chairs more scummy then BA so i'm going to

unvote for now

[pingpongsam]

Also, I haven't played with faust in a while, but does he normally pick a person and like push them hard pretty much the whole day?

D1 it was me, and now I see him doing exactly the same thing with BA.

You know faust isn't voting BA, right?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also, I haven't played with faust in a while, but does he normally pick a person and like push them hard pretty much the whole day?

D1 it was me, and now I see him doing exactly the same thing with BA.

You know faust isn't voting BA, right?

Yeah. He's still pushing him very hard, and I think a lot of the votes on him are because of what faust is doing.

[chairs]

Hrm.  As a townread of mine, that interests me.  There are currently 4 people on the BA wagon.  Let's assume at least 1 is Mafia.

chairs - I'm as Town as furniture can be.
Hydrad - Newbie Mafia? Newbie Town? Null read for me, other than a strong urge to request that he get off my lawn. 
Witherweaver - Is literally always Mafia... so probably Town.
XerxesPraelor - I feel pretty strongly Town on this one.

[chairs]

Hrm.  As a townread of mine, that interests me.  There are currently 4 people on the BA wagon.  Let's assume at least 1 is Mafia.

chairs - I'm as Town as furniture can be.
Hydrad - Newbie Mafia? Newbie Town? Null read for me, other than a strong urge to request that he get off my lawn. 
Witherweaver - Is literally always Mafia... so probably Town.
XerxesPraelor - I feel pretty strongly Town on this one.

Forgot to add:  based on this (btw, PPS about 4, not reading until I finish my thought) this would lean towards Hydrad as Mafia.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hrm.  As a townread of mine, that interests me.  There are currently 4 people on the BA wagon.  Let's assume at least 1 is Mafia.

chairs - I'm as Town as furniture can be.
Hydrad - Newbie Mafia? Newbie Town? Null read for me, other than a strong urge to request that he get off my lawn. 
Witherweaver - Is literally always Mafia... so probably Town.
XerxesPraelor - I feel pretty strongly Town on this one.

I'm a townread of yours?

Makes sense that you targeted me then. Moreso in my first game, I recall you having a huge lurker meta (and you were a town PR then). I thought that had changed recently, but I guess it's still probably a null tell on you.

[mail-mi]

This is actually making me suspect faust and mail-mi - mail-mi played his dice despite getting hit, using up his stored dice, and mail-mi is such a good choice to hit that I wonder how scum knew who to choose. Mail-mi is absolutely not an IC.

CAtching up. Yes of course i rolled, i didn't know the attack would invalidate my dice.

[mail-mi]

yay we beat the orc even without my dice!

Also: I think massclaim might be beneficial now because so many of us are dropping hints about our roles that scum should pretty much already know who has power roles and who doesn't.

faust's question: I targeted you for the doctor thing.

[Beyond Awesome]

Just letting everyone know that I will be gone for the next 9 hours or so. If the wagon gets any bigger on me, I will claim when I get back. Just don't hammer me while I'm gone.

[Hydrad]

So it looks like 4 people are in favour of claiming:

Hydrad, fuast, gin, and mail-mi

1 person is against:

PPS

I may have made errors but when is the point when a side even wins? I'm guessing we will never have 100% people vote for claiming since scum probably doesn't want it.

[pingpongsam]

So it looks like 4 people are in favour of claiming:

Hydrad, fuast, gin, and mail-mi

1 person is against:

PPS

I may have made errors but when is the point when a side even wins? I'm guessing we will never have 100% people vote for claiming since scum probably doesn't want it.

Why would scum not want to know who all the power roles are and how they function?

[Witherweaver]

I'm against claiming, too.

[Hydrad]

So it looks like 4 people are in favour of claiming:

Hydrad, fuast, gin, and mail-mi

1 person is against:

PPS

I may have made errors but when is the point when a side even wins? I'm guessing we will never have 100% people vote for claiming since scum probably doesn't want it.

Why would scum not want to know who all the power roles are and how they function?

i guess incase they claim and somehow get stuck in a lie. Although if we don't have any abilities to check on what people are doing then it doesn't really matter if they lie or not.

[pingpongsam]

Scum is going to lie and we will not be able to catch the lie today. Thus, mass-claiming will not likely narrow the lynch pools. I will be far more open to a mass claim tomorrow when we have sufficient information and a smaller pool of players to compare those notes. I think it could be too detrimental tonight for scum to know what is happening. that said, assuming our rolls defeat the Orc they don't look to be in good shape at all.

ashersky's playstyle abruptly changes when he is in a losing position. He is prone to throwing a game when he perceives it is lost. ashersky appears to have hammered Voltaire quite abruptly and his style today is very terse and non-committal.

[Hydrad]

ok 4 voting for claiming

Hydrad, faust, gin, mail

2 against

pps, witherweaver

[faust]

yay we beat the orc even without my dice!

Also: I think massclaim might be beneficial now because so many of us are dropping hints about our roles that scum should pretty much already know who has power roles and who doesn't.

faust's question: I targeted you for the doctor thing.

Did you target me with anything else?

[Witherweaver]

Scum is going to lie and we will not be able to catch the lie today. Thus, mass-claiming will not likely narrow the lynch pools. I will be far more open to a mass claim tomorrow when we have sufficient information and a smaller pool of players to compare those notes. I think it could be too detrimental tonight for scum to know what is happening. that said, assuming our rolls defeat the Orc they don't look to be in good shape at all.

ashersky's playstyle abruptly changes when he is in a losing position. He is prone to throwing a game when he perceives it is lost. ashersky appears to have hammered Voltaire quite abruptly and his style today is very terse and non-committal.

I was thinking this same thing, but he tends to only have bursts of activity, so I was holding off to see if it persisted.

[ashersky]

Lio/PPS are the remaining scum.  This D2 gambit by PPS is classic scum!pps.  Lio is hiding and hoping we'll forget.

I'll take my town MVP now.

vote: liopoil and pps

[Witherweaver]

Lio/PPS are the remaining scum.  This D2 gambit by PPS is classic scum!pps.  Lio is hiding and hoping we'll forget.

I'll take my town MVP now.

vote: liopoil and pps

D2 gambit?  Wouldn't the gambit have been in day 1? 

Why was BA scum earlier but isn't any more?

[chairs]

lol voting for two people at once.

I am against claiming Today.

[chairs]

Oh cool, you really can combine underline with bold 

But yes, against D2 claiming, thanks.

[ashersky]

Lio/PPS are the remaining scum.  This D2 gambit by PPS is classic scum!pps.  Lio is hiding and hoping we'll forget.

I'll take my town MVP now.

vote: liopoil and pps

D2 gambit?  Wouldn't the gambit have been in day 1? 

Why was BA scum earlier but isn't any more?

I never thought BA was scum (in the sense that I had info or something).  I posted like I was sure/had a result to see reactions.  A wagon shot up, with a few jumping on/off fairly erratically.  Makes for good evidence now and later.

Liopoil's reaction to my hammer on D1 is the most damning post in the game, though.  No reason not to lynch there.

[Hydrad]

ok 4 voting for claiming

Hydrad, faust, gin, mail

3 against

pps, witherweaver, chairs

[faust]

Lio/PPS are the remaining scum.  This D2 gambit by PPS is classic scum!pps.  Lio is hiding and hoping we'll forget.

I'll take my town MVP now.

vote: liopoil and pps

Can you answer my question, please?

[ashersky]

Lio/PPS are the remaining scum.  This D2 gambit by PPS is classic scum!pps.  Lio is hiding and hoping we'll forget.

I'll take my town MVP now.

vote: liopoil and pps

Can you answer my question, please?

Nothing I may have done intersects with anything you are asking about.

[liopoil]

catching up now, but the first thing I see is the most recent post:

Lio/PPS are the remaining scum.  This D2 gambit by PPS is classic scum!pps.  Lio is hiding and hoping we'll forget.

I'll take my town MVP now.

vote: liopoil and pps

Can you answer my question, please?

quotes a post claiming that I am hiding. I think that's pretty rude - day started right about when I went to sleep, I had like 2 seconds to post and roll in the morning, and just got back now.

PPE: 1

[Hydrad]

2 terms if someone could let me know. I've read the mafia terms page and don't seem to see them their

ppe: (is this referencing an old post or something?

IC: (I have no clue what this is)

[liopoil]

In your next post, everyone please state: Did you target me on N0? Did you target me on N1 (other than with the Doc thingy)?

sorry, didn't do this in my next post because I didn't see it yet. I targetted you on N1.

[mail-mi]

2 terms if someone could let me know. I've read the mafia terms page and don't seem to see them their

ppe: (is this referencing an old post or something?

IC: (I have no clue what this is)

Pre-post edit: that's when you get the little red notification after you hit post that says some other posts have been posted since you started writing.

IC: innocent child, or confirmed town.

[ashersky]

catching up now, but the first thing I see is the most recent post:

Lio/PPS are the remaining scum.  This D2 gambit by PPS is classic scum!pps.  Lio is hiding and hoping we'll forget.

I'll take my town MVP now.

vote: liopoil and pps

Can you answer my question, please?

quotes a post claiming that I am hiding. I think that's pretty rude - day started right about when I went to sleep, I had like 2 seconds to post and roll in the morning, and just got back now.

PPE: 1

Rude?  Really?  I think it's ridiculous to be making civility pledge defenses already.  Your posts have been insubstantial and lacking, so even when you were here, you remained under the radar.  To me, that's hiding, and that's a "scum on the defensive" tactic.  Your overreaction and calling it a personal attack is even more of the same.

[liopoil]

it's not a civility pledge defense, nor is it accusing you of doing anything intentionally offensive. I'm just saying that accusing me of hiding is unwarranted because this is simply the first time I have been online for more than a couple minutes on D2.

[ashersky]

it's not a civility pledge defense, nor is it accusing you of doing anything intentionally offensive. I'm just saying that accusing me of hiding is unwarranted because this is simply the first time I have been online for more than a couple minutes on D2.

Oh.  I took it the wrong way then.  My bad there.

If you've been LA, even slightly, I'll believe you, obviously.  Unless you are lying.  But you are probably not lying.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: ashersky

not OMGUS, this is just classic wounded ashersky.

What gambit have I pulled asher? Where is my scummy behavior? You know lynching me is suicide which is why you're going for it. You want out. Self-vote, it's less mess for everyone. If I'm lynched and I flip town you are next target. If you are Town you're not even trying which is a pity.

I'd really rather lynch outside of ashersky but I am relatively confident he is scum. He was scum yesterday and he's still scum today.

[pingpongsam]

My main reservation on ashersky is that he could easily be truly convinced I am scum (which is always a fool's errand for Town) which will blow up in his face when I flip. It's a classic mutually assured destruction deal that I'd rather avoid for today because it pretty well dictates the next day if either one of us is wrong about the other.

[ashersky]

Vote: ashersky

not OMGUS, this is just classic wounded ashersky.

What gambit have I pulled asher? Where is my scummy behavior? You know lynching me is suicide which is why you're going for it. You want out. Self-vote, it's less mess for everyone. If I'm lynched and I flip town you are next target. If you are Town you're not even trying which is a pity.

I'd really rather lynch outside of ashersky but I am relatively confident he is scum. He was scum yesterday and he's still scum today.

You and I have been scum together before.  That's why I don't understand what you are doing here.

I'm happy to be lynched.

When the QTs are shared, you will all see that I predicted that scum would play the "ashersky would quickhammer his partner as scum" card.  Voltaire was nowhere near being lynched.  I was fairly sure he was town.  I sent a PM to the mods asking them to apologize to Voltaire for me before the flip happened.  It's all confirmable after the game.

I quickhammered town!Voltaire to see what would happen.  I was hoping twilight would last longer so we could get more reactions.  Had voltaire been town, the reactions that we did get wouldn't have been so useful.  Like, liopoil's wouldn't look so bad at all if Voltaire was town.  Then it turned out it was scum!Voltaire, which was awesome.

Note: when someone says "this isn't OMGUS" it is always OMGUS.

PPS, you have an abrasive style of play, just like me.  When we're on the same team, it works pretty well, actually.  When we're not, it's generally unpleasant for everyone else. 

I'm not wounded, and I don't know where you'd get that.  I'm winning.  You, and most everyone else, knows I don't care at all if I die in a game.  I only care about winning.  Getting mislynched as town is a great thing sometimes -- it helps the rest of town understand a lot.

I mean, convince everyone to lynch me.  It'll just be the final nail in your coffin, man.

If you could point out "wounded ashersky" in this game, that's be nice.  I hammered scum.  That goes on my stats.  I've been on a tremendous roll of form for awhile now as town, so much so it's basically unfair to scum.  But that's what happens sometimes.  I was at a fairly terrible level of play for awhile, so it's good to be back on top for a bit.

Scum's in a terrible way right now.  They lost their roleblocker on D1, and with the medical support, they had to shoot for someone least likely to be protected.  Taking out Box did nothing to help them.  Town has any and all PRs left, strong players are remaining.

What I love is how scared you are acting.  You're like a cornered raccoon.  So much so you don't even realize I'm not voting for you, and yet to try to defend your post as "not OMGUS."  Sorry man.  You are toast.

[ashersky]

My main reservation on ashersky is that he could easily be truly convinced I am scum (which is always a fool's errand for Town) which will blow up in his face when I flip. It's a classic mutually assured destruction deal that I'd rather avoid for today because it pretty well dictates the next day if either one of us is wrong about the other.

If this means "if we lynch ashersky and he flips town, I'm lynched tomorrow," then yes, you are (hopefully) right.  You also mean for it to say "if you lynch me and I flip town, then please lynch ashersky" right?  If you somehow flipped town, that'd definitely be a possibility.

Except, I'm still voting for liopoil.

[EFHW]

Lio/PPS are the remaining scum.  This D2 gambit by PPS is classic scum!pps.  Lio is hiding and hoping we'll forget.

I'll take my town MVP now.

vote: liopoil and pps

Who do you actually intend to be voting here?  You have to pick one player!  I'm not counting this vote as is.

[pingpongsam]

Ashersky is also terrible at reading between lines.

[ashersky]

Lio/PPS are the remaining scum.  This D2 gambit by PPS is classic scum!pps.  Lio is hiding and hoping we'll forget.

I'll take my town MVP now.

vote: liopoil and pps

Who do you actually intend to be voting here?  You have to pick one player!  I'm not counting this vote as is.

Syntax would be liopoil.

vote: liopoil and PPS.

[ashersky]

Ashersky is also terrible at reading between lines.

I'm very literal.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ashersky is also terrible at reading between lines.

I've never played with you before and don't really know how to read you at all. From what some people have been saying, Ash has Bussed his own team by hammering them before. To me, that just makes me think he wouldn't pull the same trick twice and expect to get away with it.

[pingpongsam]

I'm curious to hear ashersky describe how it makes sense that I put Voltaire at L-1 despite not voting anywhere near him prior to that but rather testing the waters surrounding him. By the time I voted Voltaire yesterday I would have been shocked if he flipped Town.

[ashersky]

I'm curious to hear ashersky describe how it makes sense that I put Voltaire at L-1 despite not voting anywhere near him prior to that but rather testing the waters surrounding him. By the time I voted Voltaire yesterday I would have been shocked if he flipped Town.

If you put him to L-1, that gives you a bit of towncred, I think, if you were a normal player.

But the "ash is crazy enough to derphammer is own partner" argument (which is ridiculous) applies to you times a million.  You are the brashest scum player on f.ds.  So scum!pps putting his scumpartner to L-1 early on D1 is completely possible.

If you would have been shocked for Voltaire to flip town, why were you nowhere near him all day?  That's a contradiction.  You are saying "I never suspected him or voted him or near him or anything about him ever!!!!! but then I voted for him to put him at L-1 and was absolutely sure he was scum."  Tell me how that makes sense.

[yuma]

First of all... reading the OP isn't scummy. I read it at work via an e-mail w/o the correct format and still got the following out of it. Your lack of reading comprehension does not make anyone else scummy. It just means you need to read better...

The Orc has attacked mail-mi!

Target: 60
Score: 0

moving on to things that actually matter....

[ashersky]

Ashersky is also terrible at reading between lines.

I've never played with you before and don't really know how to read you at all. From what some people have been saying, Ash has Bussed his own team by hammering them before. To me, that just makes me think he wouldn't pull the same trick twice and expect to get away with it.

I've never hammered my own partner before, I don't think.  I'm not much of a busser, actually.  Generally I really push the mislynch as hard as possible, and generally succeed.

[ashersky]

First of all... reading the OP isn't scummy. I read it at work via an e-mail w/o the correct format and still got the following out of it. Your lack of reading comprehension does not make anyone else scummy. It just means you need to read better...

The Orc has attacked mail-mi!

Target: 60
Score: 0

moving on to things that actually matter....

Agreed.  Who was making that argument?  Oh right, PPS.

[yuma]

Also someone said this already, but I will echo it... FOS to people who just played their dice w/o discussion at all, this is a perfect example where coordination would have been ideal. Really... no one should have played until everyone should have checked in. Yes, we apparently beat the monster... thanks guys! But there was zero reason to not wait.

[yuma]

I think it was mostly faust... I don't necessarily think it is a scummy argument. Just a silly one.

[liopoil]

I'm curious to hear ashersky describe how it makes sense that I put Voltaire at L-1 despite not voting anywhere near him prior to that but rather testing the waters surrounding him. By the time I voted Voltaire yesterday I would have been shocked if he flipped Town.

you certainly never at any point during D1 demonstrated any suspicion of Voltaire at all. I certainly give no towncred to your place on the wagon and perhaps even give it scumcred because of how you did it.

[yuma]

I really want to lynch off-wagon today though, I think there's at least one scum to be found there. Vote: yuma

I was quite surprised when voltaire flipped scum. I really didn't think scum would play low roles. I imagine that voltaire must have been very unlucky or was really risky.

[yuma]

Faust, who visited you N0?

Yuma is the one person I lean strong town on. I do not give ashersky a pass for hammering. His no comment hammer looked very cred grabby. He did hammer so null for now. Still have to reread with the knowledge volt was scum.

I am in a tough spot with dice. Really I needed to be the first to roll. I can either play stored and be out if dice completely or roll and play the one die remaining in my supply.

I don't really know why you have such a strong town read on me. Quite surprised by it actually, more than people being suspicious of me. Could you elaborate?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ashersky is also terrible at reading between lines.

I've never played with you before and don't really know how to read you at all. From what some people have been saying, Ash has Bussed his own team by hammering them before. To me, that just makes me think he wouldn't pull the same trick twice and expect to get away with it.

I've never hammered my own partner before, I don't think.  I'm not much of a busser, actually.  Generally I really push the mislynch as hard as possible, and generally succeed.

Thanks for telling me. And I see that the argument made against you is one that scum would hope will be successful given your reputation.

Again, I've never played with PPS before, but it sounds like his behavior in this game is fully within the bounds of his scum!meta. In which case, I'm probably going to be sheeping you more. With how lucky we got D1, I think we have a very good shot at hitting scum again today. A scum flip this early is just so helpful for reads analysis.

I'm actually back to vote: PPS since it turns out the only reason I found him townie wasn't really a reason at all.

[pingpongsam]

First of all... reading the OP isn't scummy. I read it at work via an e-mail w/o the correct format and still got the following out of it. Your lack of reading comprehension does not make anyone else scummy. It just means you need to read better...

The Orc has attacked mail-mi!

Target: 60
Score: 0

moving on to things that actually matter....

Agreed.  Who was making that argument?  Oh right, PPS.

No, I directly refuted it and then lampooned the notion.  What were saying about pushing the mislynch real hard, again?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also. Can someone please address the way that faust just dropped my wagon D1. It seemed so unlike town to tunnel me the whole day and then switch to Volt because "IG's recent posts are more townie". At that point, I was kind of surprised that he just stopped attacking, so I went back and checked my last few posts and they were mostly jokes and stuff. So I really feel like that was a scum move on his part.

PPE: It was faust that made that argument I think. Another strike against him.

[yuma]

Alright, so this is what we do: We mass claim. The order will be this:

yuma
Witherweaver
Beyond Awesome
chairs
liopoil
Hydrad
Ichimaru Gin
ashersky
pingpongsam
faust
XerxesPraelor
mail-mi

We claim: Role, who we targeted, what happened to us. Does anyone have a problem with this?

I don't know who died and made you IC... but sure I'll claim. I wanted to do it yesterday!

I am a Thief... a town thief mind you... I am pretty sure there are at least two... one town and one mafia as there were two people who had dice stolen yesterday. I stole specifically from BoxofDog N0 and N1. First night because I wanted to steal from a lurker and the same logic the next night (I considered ash both nights, first because I wanted to punk him and the second because of his hammer) but ultimately settled on stealing from someone who I feared might not even be around to use his dice as he is a serial lurker.

I did not target faust either night, except with the doctor thing I targeted faust N1.

[liopoil]

Also someone said this already, but I will echo it... FOS to people who just played their dice w/o discussion at all, this is a perfect example where coordination would have been ideal. Really... no one should have played until everyone should have checked in. Yes, we apparently beat the monster... thanks guys! But there was zero reason to not wait.

Yeah, I gave them a FOS too. However, it may just be bad play and not scum play. Beyond Awesome looks at least a little bit bad from it.

However, right now I have to Vote: PPS. Super scummy. His early D1 claims made no sense as town, his random suspicion of me and other people was scummy because it was not founded in reason and seemed to be testing the waters, and his move to Voltaire was sudden, only near the end, and not explained or supported. Lastly, his claims of running out of dice are very easy for scum to make, and are certainly not a good claim to make as town because then scum know not to kill you.

PPE: 5, I see ichimaru has similar sentiments.

[pingpongsam]

I'm curious to hear ashersky describe how it makes sense that I put Voltaire at L-1 despite not voting anywhere near him prior to that but rather testing the waters surrounding him. By the time I voted Voltaire yesterday I would have been shocked if he flipped Town.

If you put him to L-1, that gives you a bit of towncred, I think, if you were a normal player.

But the "ash is crazy enough to derphammer is own partner" argument (which is ridiculous) applies to you times a million.  You are the brashest scum player on f.ds.  So scum!pps putting his scumpartner to L-1 early on D1 is completely possible.

If you would have been shocked for Voltaire to flip town, why were you nowhere near him all day?  That's a contradiction.  You are saying "I never suspected him or voted him or near him or anything about him ever!!!!! but then I voted for him to put him at L-1 and was absolutely sure he was scum."  Tell me how that makes sense.

It makes sense in the "I don't make my target obvious until I am certain and the interactions surrounding him disprove alternatives". Everyone agreed my late play yesterday made no sense but I assured everyone there was a method and ultimately it will be shown that my method was flawless. If you think you know the direction I am moving in based on what I have posted you are likely quite wrong.

[pingpongsam]

Liopoil is clearly town.

[yuma]

I think that is the most pertinent stuff to respond to... I think mass claiming is the way to go... especially with my role I would prefer it to be more town directed or not used (using it on box was more of a fail-safe because I feared he wouldn't use his dice to our advantage.

I guess I am not going to roll in case something happens with the monster? Otherwise it would just be throwing away dice yes?

I think ash pretty null and need to reread better to actually get scummy reads. I am still a bit scummy on liopoil but not completely sure about it...

[liopoil]

I am a Thief... a town thief mind you... I am pretty sure there are at least two... one town and one mafia as there were two people who had dice stolen yesterday. I stole specifically from BoxofDog N0 and N1. First night because I wanted to steal from a lurker and the same logic the next night (I considered ash both nights, first because I wanted to punk him and the second because of his hammer) but ultimately settled on stealing from someone who I feared might not even be around to use his dice as he is a serial lurker.

I presume you gain the dice you steal? Is it worth it to tell us how many dice you steal, or no? I don't see why we need to know, so unless you have a reason to tell us, don't. I suppose it could be useful for confirming your claim.

Do we have confirmation that boxofdog was stolen from on N0?

[pingpongsam]

You are the brashest scum player on f.ds.

Thanks for the compliment. Coming from you that has to be sig line material.

[pingpongsam]

Is it better to catch scum in the lie? Or is it better to Vote: Yuma right now for lying?

[Hydrad]

I feel like Yuma is town after that post. Also does thief mean that you take their dice and get it in you supply?

Ppe: box of dog said his supply went from 15 to 13 if I recall when he finally joined

[Hydrad]

Is it better to catch scum in the lie? Or is it better to Vote: Yuma right now for lying?

What makes you so sure he's lying?

[pingpongsam]

Is it better to catch scum in the lie? Or is it better to Vote: Yuma right now for lying?

What makes you so sure he's lying?

What makes you so sure he isn't?

[Hydrad]

Is it better to catch scum in the lie? Or is it better to Vote: Yuma right now for lying?

What makes you so sure he's lying?

What makes you so sure he isn't?

It lines up with what box of dog says and unless someone else claims to have done something to box of dog I feel like he is most likely telling the truth. He's not 100% town yet but I don't think I'm going to lynch him today unless something happens

[pingpongsam]

Is it better to catch scum in the lie? Or is it better to Vote: Yuma right now for lying?

What makes you so sure he's lying?

What makes you so sure he isn't?

It lines up with what box of dog says and unless someone else claims to have done something to box of dog I feel like he is most likely telling the truth. He's not 100% town yet but I don't think I'm going to lynch him today unless something happens

Oh, I agree with everything you just said, there.

[pingpongsam]

I considered ash both nights, first because I wanted to punk him

I have had to work to refrain from wielding my anti town power on you both nights for exactly the same reasons. Brotherly love flows around here.

[liopoil]

In your next post, everyone please state: Did you target me on N0? Did you target me on N1 (other than with the Doc thingy)?

sorry, didn't do this in my next post because I didn't see it yet. I targeted you on N1.

faust, can you confirm that I did this? (I believe you should be able to assuming that nobody else claims to have targeted you with a non-doctor power on N1). I don't particularly want to full-claim, but will if needed. My full-claim does not benefit town (and probably hurts it slightly), unless I would otherwise be lynched.

[pingpongsam]

I've never hammered my own partner before, I don't think.

Wheel of time you would have if I hadn't robbed it from you with the seppuku vote. You still had the cred so it was the best move, you know.

[liopoil]

In your next post, everyone please state: Did you target me on N0? Did you target me on N1 (other than with the Doc thingy)?

sorry, didn't do this in my next post because I didn't see it yet. I targeted you on N1.

faust, can you confirm that I did this? (I believe you should be able to assuming that nobody else claims to have targeted you with a non-doctor power on N1). I don't particularly want to full-claim, but will if needed. My full-claim does not benefit town (and probably hurts it slightly), unless I would otherwise be lynched.

On second thought, maybe my claim would have some benefit for town. You know more or less what my role does, what do you think?

[EFHW]

Vote Count 2.3

Beyond Awesome (3): XerxesPraelor, Witherweaver, chairs
chairs (1): mail-mi
Witherweaver (1): faust
pingpongsam (2): Ichimaru Gin, liopoil
yuma (1): pingpongsam
liopoil (1): ashersky

not voting (3): yuma, Beyond Awesome, Hydrad

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 9 at 11pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 11 at 11pm forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 60

[Beyond Awesome]

I am a Thief... a town thief mind you... I am pretty sure there are at least two... one town and one mafia as there were two people who had dice stolen yesterday. I stole specifically from BoxofDog N0 and N1. First night because I wanted to steal from a lurker and the same logic the next night (I considered ash both nights, first because I wanted to punk him and the second because of his hammer) but ultimately settled on stealing from someone who I feared might not even be around to use his dice as he is a serial lurker.

I presume you gain the dice you steal? Is it worth it to tell us how many dice you steal, or no? I don't see why we need to know, so unless you have a reason to tell us, don't. I suppose it could be useful for confirming your claim.

Do we have confirmation that boxofdog was stolen from on N0?

Yes, does Box mention anywhere D1 about being stolen from? I would like to see a quote.

[Hydrad]

One last thing..

My supply went down from 13 to 15.. Is this due to being inactive, or did someone take my dice? Q-Q
*notentirelysureifIshouldbepostingthisinformationonlyplayedlike4gamesofmafiaonhere*

He said this on page 18 I think. Right when he joined pretty much

[Beyond Awesome]

One last thing..

My supply went down from 13 to 15.. Is this due to being inactive, or did someone take my dice? Q-Q
*notentirelysureifIshouldbepostingthisinformationonlyplayedlike4gamesofmafiaonhere*

He said this on page 18 I think. Right when he joined pretty much

Thanks.

[Beyond Awesome]

I am somewhat inclined to believe Yuma's story. So, I think he is likely town.

XP and Faust seem a lot more town to me now.

Mail-Mi I think is town due to his power.

I also think PPS is town for having his dice stolen.

I get a strong town read on WW based on his posts.

I was leaning more town on Ichi and Hydrad, but they are more null now. I think though there is a good chance both are town.

Ash is null. I can see the argument that Ash would hammer whether he were scum or town. Also, seems to be semi-lurking.

lio, I am not sure. Slight scum read. He just seems to be trying to blend in. That is something I can imagine scum trying to do. So, I am actually thinking he has the best chance at being scum.

Chairs scares me the most. I don't really like his lurker meta, even if that is how he usually plays. But, if that is his usual style then that would make him null. If it weren't for others saying this is how chairs play, I would be all for lynching him.

Based on that, I think lio seems the best lynch candidate. Chairs and Ash are up there, as well. I will vote lio for now because I think he has the best chance of coming up scum, but I will switch to chairs or Ash if players feel those two are scummier.

Vote: lio

[XerxesPraelor]

Why does mail-mi's power make you think he's town?

[Beyond Awesome]

Why does mail-mi's power make you think he's town?

I just think it is unlikely that mafia would be given multiple powers. Now, I mean, it is a possibility, but for now, I am thinking at most everyone has one power and that's it.

[Hydrad]

Personally I feel like any powers that arnt things like controlling the monster or cutting our dice in half being a good chance of being not scum. As long as the can prove it.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So how will faust's massclaim order go down if some people don't want to claim? (Not me, but others).

[Beyond Awesome]

Personally, I am not in favor of claiming. I feel there may be some info that we don't want scum to know.

[Beyond Awesome]

Why does mail-mi's power make you think he's town?

The more I think about it, this is a good question. I guess it is possible that a town player is cutting players dice supply in half and that mail-mi was given a power to make him look very town-like. That sure would make this game interesting if that were the case. But, honestly, I don't find that type of scenario likely.

[ashersky]

On mail-mi's power: extra dice rolls are pro-town, right?  So it seems like a town power.

But look at his actual actions.  No roll on D1 = anti-town.  Two rolls on D2 that both did not count AND blocked two possible numbers for town = anti-town.  Imagine we'd let him save rolls and this monster came later.  He could have blocked so many numbers we could not win.

So, sounds pro-town...has been nothing but anti-town.

[faust]

liopoil... I think it is better for you not to claim just yet.

yuma... I think he may be scum. But I have a way to use his power: Can you target PPS tonight and confirm that he has no dice left?

Hydrad... can you again confirm that you targeted me on N0 rather tahn on N1?

[faust]

lio is town almost certainly btw

[faust]

Actually, no.

Vote: yuma

[faust]

I highly doubt that we have two of the same role in this setup. Thus, I find it hard to believe yuma's story.

[faust]

So who's left? Time for some reads!

ashersky - I think hammering a partner on D1 is something ashersky could do. But Voltaire likely had the strongest scum role in this game. The mafia couldn't really afford to lose him. I lean town on ash.

chairs - lurk lurk lurk. Not indicative of alignment, sadly. It is notable that he played his die second-to-last today, and when he could have easily faked a bad roll, he played something that helped us.

yuma - I don't buy the claim. Well, I mean, I do buy the claim, but I also think he's scum. I don't think there would be two Thieves. I think that after D1, there were much better thieving targets than Box. I think yuma using his power on N0 was anti-town.

mail-mi - has a role with little to no utiliity for scum. That doesn't mean he can't be scum, of course, but he shouldn't be our top lynch priority. Plus, he reads like town to me.

faust - me.

XerxesPraelor - Is basically confirmed town to me.

Witherweaver - gives me a scummy vibe. And he was off the Voltaire wagon, which makes him scummier. Plus, he plays cautious and is not really involved. Maybe that's because he's grown tired of playing scum? Him playing a 12 today is townie though.

Beyond Awesome - also gives me a scummy vibe, as already explained.

Ichimaru Gin - his interactions with Voltaire were townie, and he's actually the person I have the strongest town read on without help of role interactions.

liopoil - is almost certainly town, based on his reactions.

Hydrad - also very likely town. Awaiting confirmation on something.

pingpongsam - If what he says is true, and he has no dice left, he is very likely town. I think we can confirm whether or not he has dice left tonight.

So, my lynch pool for today is down to 6 people, that's neat. I prefer yuma a lot. WW and chairs are the next player I am willing to consider.

[Jimmmmm]

yuma has been subbed out of the game. His replacement will join the game shortly.

[faust]

Vote: whoever replaces yuma

[Jimmmmm]

2.71828..... has replaced yuma.

[Jimmmmm]

Vote Count 2.4

Beyond Awesome (3): XerxesPraelor, Witherweaver, chairs
chairs (1): mail-mi
pingpongsam (2): Ichimaru Gin, liopoil
2.71828..... (2): pingpongsam, faust
liopoil (2): ashersky, Beyond Awesome

not voting (2): 2.71828....., Hydrad

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 9 at 11pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 11 at 11pm forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 60

[Jimmmmm]

Thanks to e for subbing in!

[Witherweaver]

If e/Yuma is scum, so is PPS I think.

Yuma can be a scum thief who stole from Box while PPS lied about being vandalized.  No risk of a conflicting town thief claim.

[XerxesPraelor]

Well, let's check then.

vote: e

[Witherweaver]

Alright.

Vote: e

[Witherweaver]

I just discovered that someone swiped half my supply of dice last night.

Points to you being town, with scum stealing your dice.

Or you (or your partner) has the dice-stealing scum power and you are preemptively claiming to have been robbed when you actually didn't use the power for yet even more cred.

Ha, Ash pointed this out way back after PPS claimed (which was pretty much right off the bat).

[XerxesPraelor]

Did BoxOfDog actually claim to have dice stolen N0?

[2.71828.....]

yay.  A wagon already. 

So I have some catching up to do.  We still have a little way to go today, so please refrain from lynching me until at least Monday. 

[Witherweaver]

Did BoxOfDog actually claim to have dice stolen N0?

I believe so, yes.

[Witherweaver]

One last thing..

My supply went down from 13 to 15.. Is this due to being inactive, or did someone take my dice? Q-Q
*notentirelysureifIshouldbepostingthisinformationonlyplayedlike4gamesofmafiaonhere*

This is it.

Unless he simply Rolled two dice and Played one, not storing the other ....

[Witherweaver]

Well, that's unlikely since he had to wait to get his results.  If Jimm would have lowered his supply as a result of his rolls, he would have given the roll as well.

And Box was town, so...

Interesting(^^TM) how Box had two dice stolen, but PPS had half his supply?

[Witherweaver]

Also possible there is a non-thief, destructive role that simply depletes another player's supply without stealing them.  Box never said they were stolen as I recall.. PPS implied some stealing flavor.

[faust]

Hmmm, here's a thing: What kind of anti-town roles do we know about?

Dice stealing/destruction: Claimed to have affected PPS (N0), BoxOfDOG (N0), BA (N1).

Rerolling: Affected me (I was apparently not attacked by the Troll) (D1)

Roll manipulation: Affected PPS (D1), Hydrad (D2) (probably)

We have only two scum players left. Can they really be responsible for all of this...?

unvote

If anyone else is responsible for one of these effects, I think they should claim now.

[Hydrad]

Faust I targeted you N0

[Witherweaver]

Hmmm, here's a thing: What kind of anti-town roles do we know about?

Dice stealing/destruction: Claimed to have affected PPS (N0), BoxOfDOG (N0), BA (N1).

Rerolling: Affected me (I was apparently not attacked by the Troll) (D1)

Roll manipulation: Affected PPS (D1), Hydrad (D2) (probably)

We have only two scum players left. Can they really be responsible for all of this...?

unvote

If anyone else is responsible for one of these effects, I think they should claim now.

You were not attacked by the Troll?  I thought it said it in flavor.

[pingpongsam]

Also possible there is a non-thief, destructive role that simply depletes another player's supply without stealing them.  Box never said they were stolen as I recall.. PPS implied some stealing flavor.

I got no flavor. All I saw was a reduction in my supply dice.

That said, I am never a fan of these if this person is alignment x then that person must be alignment y chains. To be perfectly forward I am about 50/50 on yuma's alignment. I am not opposed to his lynch and I am not wholly opposed to going down the next day as a result if he flips scum because we can afford the town loss at that point and I am arguably the most disposable townie with zero dice remaining.

If he flips town what's the genius strategy then?

[Witherweaver]

Other  circumstantial evidence from Yuma(e)/PPS scum: Claiming to steal from Box N0 is consistent with Box's claim.  Proposing a second Thief validates PPS's claim and is consistent with N0.  Only one claimed theft (against BA) during N1.  Yuma claiming to steal from N1 again is not verifiable, and gives support to the claim that there are two Thieves.  If scum!Yuma knows that there are not, then he knows no one else will make the claim to have stolen BA's dice N1, so he keeps the "two Thieves" idea alive.

[Witherweaver]

Also possible there is a non-thief, destructive role that simply depletes another player's supply without stealing them.  Box never said they were stolen as I recall.. PPS implied some stealing flavor.

I got no flavor. All I saw was a reduction in my supply dice.

That said, I am never a fan of these if this person is alignment x then that person must be alignment y chains. To be perfectly forward I am about 50/50 on yuma's alignment. I am not opposed to his lynch and I am not wholly opposed to going down the next day as a result if he flips scum because we can afford the town loss at that point and I am arguably the most disposable townie with zero dice remaining.

If he flips town what's the genius strategy then?

So better to lynch you first, then decide on Yuma?

[Witherweaver]

Also possible there is a non-thief, destructive role that simply depletes another player's supply without stealing them.  Box never said they were stolen as I recall.. PPS implied some stealing flavor.

I got no flavor. All I saw was a reduction in my supply dice.

That said, I am never a fan of these if this person is alignment x then that person must be alignment y chains. To be perfectly forward I am about 50/50 on yuma's alignment. I am not opposed to his lynch and I am not wholly opposed to going down the next day as a result if he flips scum because we can afford the town loss at that point and I am arguably the most disposable townie with zero dice remaining.

If he flips town what's the genius strategy then?

Well, this is the implication to which I'm referring:

My PR name is The Swindler. Seems we have a thief to form a coalition of grifters.

I just discovered that someone swiped half my supply of dice last night.

Points to you being town, with scum stealing your dice.

Or you (or your partner) has the dice-stealing scum power and you are preemptively claiming to have been robbed when you actually didn't use the power for yet even more cred.

My PR name is The Swindler. Seems we have a thief to form a coalition of grifters.

You seemed to believe it was theft at the time.

[Witherweaver]

Hmmm, here's a thing: What kind of anti-town roles do we know about?

Dice stealing/destruction: Claimed to have affected PPS (N0), BoxOfDOG (N0), BA (N1).

Rerolling: Affected me (I was apparently not attacked by the Troll) (D1)

Roll manipulation: Affected PPS (D1), Hydrad (D2) (probably)

We have only two scum players left. Can they really be responsible for all of this...?

unvote

If anyone else is responsible for one of these effects, I think they should claim now.

Yuma claimed to steal from BoxofDog both N0 and N1.

[Witherweaver]

Sorry I was misremembering from Day 1:

Edit: XerxesPraelor has been attacked by the Troll.
Score: 640

Hydrad plays 7
Score: 810 689

Xerxes was attacked by troll, Faust was rerolled.

[Witherweaver]

Is "Roll manipulation" referring to PPS rolling three 8's and Hydrad rolling multiple 7's?  I'm not convinced this is evidence of tampering at all... it's probably just regular RNG stuff.

[Hydrad]

Is "Roll manipulation" referring to PPS rolling three 8's and Hydrad rolling multiple 7's?  I'm not convinced this is evidence of tampering at all... it's probably just regular RNG stuff.

I feel like mine can be regular RNG but i feel like triple 8's is really unlikely.

[Witherweaver]

Is "Roll manipulation" referring to PPS rolling three 8's and Hydrad rolling multiple 7's?  I'm not convinced this is evidence of tampering at all... it's probably just regular RNG stuff.

I feel like mine can be regular RNG but i feel like triple 8's is really unlikely.

8 8 8 has the exact same chance of occurring as 9 2 11.  Why is one evidence of tampering but the other not?

[Hydrad]

Is "Roll manipulation" referring to PPS rolling three 8's and Hydrad rolling multiple 7's?  I'm not convinced this is evidence of tampering at all... it's probably just regular RNG stuff.

I feel like mine can be regular RNG but i feel like triple 8's is really unlikely.

8 8 8 has the exact same chance of occurring as 9 2 11.  Why is one evidence of tampering but the other not?

While that is true the chance is still pretty low which makes me fell like there is about a 70% at least that we have someone tampering with dice. Its not high enough that I am positive but I am definitely going to consider it as a power

[faust]

Is "Roll manipulation" referring to PPS rolling three 8's and Hydrad rolling multiple 7's?  I'm not convinced this is evidence of tampering at all... it's probably just regular RNG stuff.

I feel like mine can be regular RNG but i feel like triple 8's is really unlikely.

8 8 8 has the exact same chance of occurring as 9 2 11.  Why is one evidence of tampering but the other not?

Because one is a special case, and the other one is not. There could easily be a role: "Target a player. All rolls of this player will have the same value."

[Witherweaver]

Is "Roll manipulation" referring to PPS rolling three 8's and Hydrad rolling multiple 7's?  I'm not convinced this is evidence of tampering at all... it's probably just regular RNG stuff.

I feel like mine can be regular RNG but i feel like triple 8's is really unlikely.

8 8 8 has the exact same chance of occurring as 9 2 11.  Why is one evidence of tampering but the other not?

While that is true the chance is still pretty low which makes me fell like there is about a 70% at least that we have someone tampering with dice. Its not high enough that I am positive but I am definitely going to consider it as a power

70% sounds completely made up there.

The chance is not low, at all.  You simply cannot take one outcome of a random experiment and make deductions about the distribution.

Consider also there were 14 sets of N_i die rolls on Day 1.  Generated 14 instances of three die rolls twice.

Result 1:

(12, 2, 6)
(6, 12, 2)
(3, 1, 3)
(2, 12, 11)
(10, 10, 11)
(11, 7, 11)
(7, 3, 3)
(7, 8, 10)
(12, 7, 10)
(6, 8, 12)
(5, 1, 4)
(12, 2, 4)
(8, 5, 9)
(4, 6, 4)

Result 2:

(1, 7, 10)
(6, 9, 8 )
(9, 4, 8 )
(5, 10, 4)
(8, 7, 12)
(1, 7, 11)
(6, 4, 5)
(1, 6, 9)
(10, 8, 6)
(10, 7, 3)
(2, 10, 12)
(12, 12, 12)
(6, 8, 1)
(5, 5, 2)

[Witherweaver]

Is "Roll manipulation" referring to PPS rolling three 8's and Hydrad rolling multiple 7's?  I'm not convinced this is evidence of tampering at all... it's probably just regular RNG stuff.

I feel like mine can be regular RNG but i feel like triple 8's is really unlikely.

8 8 8 has the exact same chance of occurring as 9 2 11.  Why is one evidence of tampering but the other not?

Because one is a special case, and the other one is not. There could easily be a role: "Target a player. All rolls of this player will have the same value."

There could easily be such a role, yes.  No reason to believe it's even remotely probable from the evidence, though. 

Note that, in my above example, we don't know how many dice everyone rolled, so it doesn't correlate exactly (I used 3 dice for all 14 runs).

[Hydrad]

Is "Roll manipulation" referring to PPS rolling three 8's and Hydrad rolling multiple 7's?  I'm not convinced this is evidence of tampering at all... it's probably just regular RNG stuff.

I feel like mine can be regular RNG but i feel like triple 8's is really unlikely.

Ah sorry I didn't explain it properly. 70% is how confident I am that there is dice manipulation. I haven't calculated how likely it is at all

8 8 8 has the exact same chance of occurring as 9 2 11.  Why is one evidence of tampering but the other not?

While that is true the chance is still pretty low which makes me fell like there is about a 70% at least that we have someone tampering with dice. Its not high enough that I am positive but I am definitely going to consider it as a power

70% sounds completely made up there.

The chance is not low, at all.  You simply cannot take one outcome of a random experiment and make deductions about the distribution.

Consider also there were 14 sets of N_i die rolls on Day 1.  Generated 14 instances of three die rolls twice.

Result 1:

(12, 2, 6)
(6, 12, 2)
(3, 1, 3)
(2, 12, 11)
(10, 10, 11)
(11, 7, 11)
(7, 3, 3)
(7, 8, 10)
(12, 7, 10)
(6, 8, 12)
(5, 1, 4)
(12, 2, 4)
(8, 5, 9)
(4, 6, 4)

Result 2:

(1, 7, 10)
(6, 9, 8 )
(9, 4, 8 )
(5, 10, 4)
(8, 7, 12)
(1, 7, 11)
(6, 4, 5)
(1, 6, 9)
(10, 8, 6)
(10, 7, 3)
(2, 10, 12)
(12, 12, 12)
(6, 8, 1)
(5, 5, 2)

[Hydrad]

Is "Roll manipulation" referring to PPS rolling three 8's and Hydrad rolling multiple 7's?  I'm not convinced this is evidence of tampering at all... it's probably just regular RNG stuff.

I feel like mine can be regular RNG but i feel like triple 8's is really unlikely.

Ah sorry I didn't explain it properly. 70% is how confident I am that there is dice manipulation. I haven't calculated how likely it is at all

8 8 8 has the exact same chance of occurring as 9 2 11.  Why is one evidence of tampering but the other not?

While that is true the chance is still pretty low which makes me fell like there is about a 70% at least that we have someone tampering with dice. Its not high enough that I am positive but I am definitely going to consider it as a power

70% sounds completely made up there.

The chance is not low, at all.  You simply cannot take one outcome of a random experiment and make deductions about the distribution.

Consider also there were 14 sets of N_i die rolls on Day 1.  Generated 14 instances of three die rolls twice.

Result 1:

(12, 2, 6)
(6, 12, 2)
(3, 1, 3)
(2, 12, 11)
(10, 10, 11)
(11, 7, 11)
(7, 3, 3)
(7, 8, 10)
(12, 7, 10)
(6, 8, 12)
(5, 1, 4)
(12, 2, 4)
(8, 5, 9)
(4, 6, 4)

Result 2:

(1, 7, 10)
(6, 9, 8 )
(9, 4, 8 )
(5, 10, 4)
(8, 7, 12)
(1, 7, 11)
(6, 4, 5)
(1, 6, 9)
(10, 8, 6)
(10, 7, 3)
(2, 10, 12)
(12, 12, 12)
(6, 8, 1)
(5, 5, 2)

Ah sorry I didn't explain it properly. 70% is how confident I am that there is dice manipulation. I haven't calculated how likely it is at all

failed quote terribly

[faust]

Hydrad, I'm still waiting for your confirmation.

[Hydrad]

Hydrad, I'm still waiting for your confirmation.

Ah yes I did target you N0

[faust]

Peculiar.

[Hydrad]

So i'm guessing you have an ability that can tell who visited or something? either way if you need it i'm willing to claim i don't think my power is a huge gamechanger or anything

[Hydrad]

one second i'm going to ask something in my QT

[faust]

To settle this argument:

chances of three of the same numbers appearing when three dice are rolled:

P(three of the same) = P(2. die = 1. die)*P(3. die = 1. die) = 1/144

chances of this happening at least once in 14 rolls:

P(at least once) = 1 - P(never three of the same) = 1 - (1 - P(three of the same)^14 = 1 - (143/144)^14 = 9.3%

[faust]

The chances of this happening twice in a row are thus (0.093)^2= 0.9%

[Hydrad]

The chances of this happening twice in a row are thus (0.093)^2= 0.9%

to be fair mine was only 2 dice though

[Witherweaver]

To settle this argument:

chances of three of the same numbers appearing when three dice are rolled:

P(three of the same) = P(2. die = 1. die)*P(3. die = 1. die) = 1/144

chances of this happening at least once in 14 rolls:

P(at least once) = 1 - P(never three of the same) = 1 - (1 - P(three of the same)^14 = 1 - (143/144)^14 = 9.3%

Should really do 14+12 = 26 rolls.

And it didn't happen twice.  Hydrad's was two 7's on day 2.

[faust]

To settle this argument:

chances of three of the same numbers appearing when three dice are rolled:

P(three of the same) = P(2. die = 1. die)*P(3. die = 1. die) = 1/144

chances of this happening at least once in 14 rolls:

P(at least once) = 1 - P(never three of the same) = 1 - (1 - P(three of the same)^14 = 1 - (143/144)^14 = 9.3%

Should really do 14+12 = 26 rolls.

And it didn't happen twice.  Hydrad's was two 7's on day 2.

Okay, well, slightly bigger then. We're still talking 1 - 3% territory.

[Witherweaver]

No, 1-(143/144)^26 = 16.57%.

Chance of getting two of the same is 1/12.  Very likely (90%ish) in 26 chances.

[faust]

No, 1-(143/144)^26 = 16.57%.

Chance of getting two of the same is 1/12.  Very likely (90%ish) in 26 chances.

We're talking of it happening twice on two separate days.

[Witherweaver]

No, 1-(143/144)^26 = 16.57%.

Chance of getting two of the same is 1/12.  Very likely (90%ish) in 26 chances.

We're talking of it happening twice on two separate days.

That's cherry picking details.  If 3X and 2Y both occurred on Day 1 or on Day 2 you wouldn't be making this argument?

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, in regards to e/yuma, I buy his story for one reason. Box lost two dice, and I lost 6 dice!!!! And, it sounds like PPS lost a similar amount of dice.

I do find this theory of a dice manipulator interesting. I could very well see that being a roll in this game.

[faust]

No, 1-(143/144)^26 = 16.57%.

Chance of getting two of the same is 1/12.  Very likely (90%ish) in 26 chances.

We're talking of it happening twice on two separate days.

That's cherry picking details.  If 3X and 2Y both occurred on Day 1 or on Day 2 you wouldn't be making this argument?

That's right.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, we can verify if yuma is telling the truth tomorrow when he targets another player, and they state they only lost two dice.

[Witherweaver]

Also, we can verify if yuma is telling the truth tomorrow when he targets another player, and they state they only lost two dice.

It could easily be random.

[Hydrad]

Also, we can verify if yuma is telling the truth tomorrow when he targets another player, and they state they only lost two dice.

It could easily be random.

Interesting I didn't even consider that.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, we can verify if yuma is telling the truth tomorrow when he targets another player, and they state they only lost two dice.

It could easily be random.

If it is random then why did PPS and I lose a crap ton of dice while Box only had two stolen.

[Witherweaver]

No, 1-(143/144)^26 = 16.57%.

Chance of getting two of the same is 1/12.  Very likely (90%ish) in 26 chances.

We're talking of it happening twice on two separate days.

That's cherry picking details.  If 3X and 2Y both occurred on Day 1 or on Day 2 you wouldn't be making this argument?

That's right.

Alright, I mean I agree that it's possible, but I think {Theif/Destructor}+{Reroller} roles are the more likely scenario. 

[Witherweaver]

Also, we can verify if yuma is telling the truth tomorrow when he targets another player, and they state they only lost two dice.

It could easily be random.

If it is random then why did PPS and I lose a crap ton of dice while Box only had two stolen.

We only have one outcome of Yuma's claim.  Box lost two dice on Night 0. 

[Witherweaver]

Is this the first time you claimed to have lost 6 dice?

[Hydrad]

Also, we can verify if yuma is telling the truth tomorrow when he targets another player, and they state they only lost two dice.

It could easily be random.

If it is random then why did PPS and I lose a crap ton of dice while Box only had two stolen.

maybe the thief roles a 6 sided die to steal things?
not really sure.

[Hydrad]

faust there is a possibility that I don't move during the night if thats whats confusing you.

[Beyond Awesome]

Is this the first time you claimed to have lost 6 dice?

Yes. This is the first time I claimed the exact amount stolen.

[Witherweaver]

Ugh! I just had my dice stolen, and it was half of them rounded up!!! And, Box died.

But, on the bright side, we lynched scum! Yay! Oh, and it is my birthday.

Anyway, sorry for the low roll guys. I did not roll many dice considering I had them stolen.

Play: 5

Funny, PPS also claimed to lost half his dice (in his original post).  Then later:

N0 I had 9 dice, starting D1 I had 5 dice. I rolled 3 dice and I have 1 remaining die in my supply.

So his loss was rounded down and not up...

Unvote

[faust]

faust there is a possibility that I don't move during the night if thats whats confusing you.

NOW you're confusing me.

[Beyond Awesome]

Ugh! I just had my dice stolen, and it was half of them rounded up!!! And, Box died.

But, on the bright side, we lynched scum! Yay! Oh, and it is my birthday.

Anyway, sorry for the low roll guys. I did not roll many dice considering I had them stolen.

Play: 5

It sounds like he had 4 dice stolen. I had 11 dice going in my supply D2 and had 6 stolen. So, maybe the thief does roll a six-sided die.
Funny, PPS also claimed to lost half his dice (in his original post).  Then later:

N0 I had 9 dice, starting D1 I had 5 dice. I rolled 3 dice and I have 1 remaining die in my supply.

So his loss was rounded down and not up...

Unvote

[Beyond Awesome]

Ugh! I just had my dice stolen, and it was half of them rounded up!!! And, Box died.

But, on the bright side, we lynched scum! Yay! Oh, and it is my birthday.

Anyway, sorry for the low roll guys. I did not roll many dice considering I had them stolen.

Play: 5

Funny, PPS also claimed to lost half his dice (in his original post).  Then later:

N0 I had 9 dice, starting D1 I had 5 dice. I rolled 3 dice and I have 1 remaining die in my supply.

So his loss was rounded down and not up...

Unvote

Sorry about that. It sounds like he had 4 dice stolen. I had 11 dice going in my supply D2 and had 6 stolen. So, maybe the thief does roll a six-sided die.

[Hydrad]

faust there is a possibility that I don't move during the night if thats whats confusing you.

NOW you're confusing me.

welp that backfired. I'll just let you think then and stop trying to help.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, if Box had 2 stolen, PPS 4, and me 6, does that mean we have two dice stealers or just one? If there is just one, how were two people targeted D1?

[faust]

e, can you tell us how your role works, exactly?

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, we can verify if yuma is telling the truth tomorrow when he targets another player, and they state they only lost two dice.

It could easily be random.

If it is random then why did PPS and I lose a crap ton of dice while Box only had two stolen.

maybe the thief roles a 6 sided die to steal things?
not really sure.

Based on the numbers Box, PPS, and I had stolen, I find this a likely theory.

[Witherweaver]

So, if Box had 2 stolen, PPS 4, and me 6, does that mean we have two dice stealers or just one? If there is just one, how were two people targeted D1?

What did you see in your QT?

[Beyond Awesome]

So, if Box had 2 stolen, PPS 4, and me 6, does that mean we have two dice stealers or just one? If there is just one, how were two people targeted D1?

What did you see in your QT?

In my QT, all it does it show that my supply went down. It does not state they were stolen or anything. You just get a PM with the revised supply like what happened with Box.

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, I find e/yuma's story of targeting Box N1 a bit dubious. It is an easy story for mafia to hide behind. I want to believe yuma because we had two people targeted D1, but I don't know. Maybe, the dice-stealing ability is x-shot. Either way, I am leaning more scum on e/yuma

Vote: e/yuma

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, a thought, why would town steal people's dice?

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, right after yuma claims his ability we have him drop out just like that and have e take over. It is almost as if he were giving up as scum or something.

[faust]

Also, right after yuma claims his ability we have him drop out just like that and have e take over. It is almost as if he were giving up as scum or something.

I don't think you should draw any conclusions from yuma's dropping out.

[faust]

Here's a plan:

e targets pingpongsam tonight. If he doesn't get any dice, we can confirm PPS is out of dice. If PPS is really out of dice, he is basically confirmed town, because why would scum reduce their own dice? If e does get dice, PPS is lying scum.

In the meantime, we lynch someone else. I propose WW.

Vote: Witherweaver

[Hydrad]

Here's a plan:

e targets pingpongsam tonight. If he doesn't get any dice, we can confirm PPS is out of dice. If PPS is really out of dice, he is basically confirmed town, because why would scum reduce their own dice? If e does get dice, PPS is lying scum.

In the meantime, we lynch someone else. I propose WW.

Vote: Witherweaver

One question would a mafia want to run out of dice? he could do things like role 5 dice on first day and only play 1. If he runs out he basically has an excuse that he isn't helping us and the fights get harder for no reason.

[Witherweaver]

That's a bad proposition.  The lynching me part. 

The e/PPS plan is okay, unless they are the scum team.

[faust]

The plan of course relies on us finding out e's alignment. We should do that some time.

[faust]

Here's a plan:

e targets pingpongsam tonight. If he doesn't get any dice, we can confirm PPS is out of dice. If PPS is really out of dice, he is basically confirmed town, because why would scum reduce their own dice? If e does get dice, PPS is lying scum.

In the meantime, we lynch someone else. I propose WW.

Vote: Witherweaver

One question would a mafia want to run out of dice? he could do things like role 5 dice on first day and only play 1. If he runs out he basically has an excuse that he isn't helping us and the fights get harder for no reason.

Because there are other uses for the dice.

[Hydrad]

Here's a plan:

e targets pingpongsam tonight. If he doesn't get any dice, we can confirm PPS is out of dice. If PPS is really out of dice, he is basically confirmed town, because why would scum reduce their own dice? If e does get dice, PPS is lying scum.

In the meantime, we lynch someone else. I propose WW.

Vote: Witherweaver

One question would a mafia want to run out of dice? he could do things like role 5 dice on first day and only play 1. If he runs out he basically has an excuse that he isn't helping us and the fights get harder for no reason.

Because there are other uses for the dice.

Ah i didn't think of that.

I agree with faust for now

Vote: Witherweaver

[Witherweaver]

Or we could just lynch PPS and find out his alignment.

[faust]

Or we could just lynch PPS and find out his alignment.

Or we could just lynch you and find out your alignment.

[Witherweaver]

Or we could just lynch PPS and find out his alignment.

Or we could just lynch you and find out your alignment.

I'm town, so not necessary.

Also not so informative, I think.

[Beyond Awesome]

Here's a plan:

e targets pingpongsam tonight. If he doesn't get any dice, we can confirm PPS is out of dice. If PPS is really out of dice, he is basically confirmed town, because why would scum reduce their own dice? If e does get dice, PPS is lying scum.

In the meantime, we lynch someone else. I propose WW.

Vote: Witherweaver

There are a lot of variables at play with this plan. Either e or PPS could get NK'd. e might be the thief, claimed to have targeted PPS and then we could end up with someone else that had dice stolen and e could say that he targeted PPS.

PPE: 4

[Beyond Awesome]

Here's a plan:

e targets pingpongsam tonight. If he doesn't get any dice, we can confirm PPS is out of dice. If PPS is really out of dice, he is basically confirmed town, because why would scum reduce their own dice? If e does get dice, PPS is lying scum.

In the meantime, we lynch someone else. I propose WW.

Vote: Witherweaver

One question would a mafia want to run out of dice? he could do things like role 5 dice on first day and only play 1. If he runs out he basically has an excuse that he isn't helping us and the fights get harder for no reason.

Because there are other uses for the dice.

What makes you certain that scum has other uses for dice?

[faust]

Here's a plan:

e targets pingpongsam tonight. If he doesn't get any dice, we can confirm PPS is out of dice. If PPS is really out of dice, he is basically confirmed town, because why would scum reduce their own dice? If e does get dice, PPS is lying scum.

In the meantime, we lynch someone else. I propose WW.

Vote: Witherweaver

There are a lot of variables at play with this plan. Either e or PPS could get NK'd. e might be the thief, claimed to have targeted PPS and then we could end up with someone else that had dice stolen and e could say that he targeted PPS.

PPE: 4

If e or PPS are nightkilled, great, because then scum is taking out our suspects for us.

e/PPS scumteam is of course a possibility, but we can still find out e's alignment later on, and then the flip will be much more informative.

[faust]

Here's a plan:

e targets pingpongsam tonight. If he doesn't get any dice, we can confirm PPS is out of dice. If PPS is really out of dice, he is basically confirmed town, because why would scum reduce their own dice? If e does get dice, PPS is lying scum.

In the meantime, we lynch someone else. I propose WW.

Vote: Witherweaver

One question would a mafia want to run out of dice? he could do things like role 5 dice on first day and only play 1. If he runs out he basically has an excuse that he isn't helping us and the fights get harder for no reason.

Because there are other uses for the dice.

What makes you certain that scum has other uses for dice?

Nothing. But scum does not know whether there may be other uses via monster rewards/penalty or similar stuff.

[Hydrad]

I hope this monster reward is something like +5 dice because I feel like people are starting to run out and I'm slightly worried for us winning the next few days.

[faust]

I hope this monster reward is something like +5 dice because I feel like people are starting to run out and I'm slightly worried for us winning the next few days.

Well, we won't instantly lose if there's a monster we don't manage to defeat. Actually I was thinking of maybe purposefully let a monster win and not doing anything about it.

[Beyond Awesome]

I hope this monster reward is something like +5 dice because I feel like people are starting to run out and I'm slightly worried for us winning the next few days.

Well, we won't instantly lose if there's a monster we don't manage to defeat. Actually I was thinking of maybe purposefully let a monster win and not doing anything about it.

That is a bad idea. We don't know what the penalty would be. Town players could lose more dice. Mafia could get another NK. We have no idea what would happen if we let that occur.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, what I want to know is people who are voting WW, what makes you think he is scum?

[Witherweaver]

So, what I want to know is people who are voting WW, what makes you think he is scum?

It's bad and they should feel bad.

[Hydrad]

I have 3 reasons.

1. He wasn't voting for Volt

2. gut feeling

3. trusting faust

Overall these aren't the best reasons and am more doing this for information. I'll be pretty willing to switch off as i'm not to positive about him yet. But since day 2 started i've just been feeling hes scum more and more.

[Witherweaver]

If I was Volt's partner I would have wanted to be on the wagon, not off it, and certainly not vocal against it.

[Beyond Awesome]

If WW were scum, I would be shocked. From what I understand, WW is scum pretty much every game he is in, so for once, he has to be town just based on the law of averages. I just don't see WW being scum this game.

[faust]

If I was Volt's partner I would have wanted to be on the wagon, not off it, and certainly not vocal against it.

That's rubbish. Scum lynch on D1 almost always lead to a town win. Scum would do everything to prevent that.

[faust]

If WW were scum, I would be shocked. From what I understand, WW is scum pretty much every game he is in, so for once, he has to be town just based on the law of averages. I just don't see WW being scum this game.

That is rubbish. Don't make arguments like that. You can trust me, I'm a mathematician.

[Witherweaver]

If WW were scum, I would be shocked. From what I understand, WW is scum pretty much every game he is in, so for once, he has to be town just based on the law of averages. I just don't see WW being scum this game.

While I appreciate the defense, law of averages is not a good one http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_averages

[faust]

My reason to vote WW is mostly PoE, plus he was off-wagon on D1.

[Witherweaver]

If I was Volt's partner I would have wanted to be on the wagon, not off it, and certainly not vocal against it.

That's rubbish. Scum lynch on D1 almost always lead to a town win. Scum would do everything to prevent that.

But I've never come out in actual defense of a scum partner.  You should realize this.

[faust]

If I was Volt's partner I would have wanted to be on the wagon, not off it, and certainly not vocal against it.

That's rubbish. Scum lynch on D1 almost always lead to a town win. Scum would do everything to prevent that.

But I've never come out in actual defense of a scum partner.  You should realize this.

And we all know how well that worked out for you.

[Witherweaver]

3-1 winning

[Witherweaver]

Well, not counting MU, but there was no real interaction there

[faust]

3-1 winning

Okay, I was only thinking of the MU and Innovation 2 (probably because I was your partner in both and it still hurts). But did any of the games you won feature a D1 scum wagon that you supported?

[Witherweaver]

3-1 winning

Okay, I was only thinking of the MU and Innovation 2 (probably because I was your partner in both and it still hurts). But did any of the games you won feature a D1 scum wagon that you supported?

I would have hammered Scott P in Greater idea, you can check scum QT.  I voted Ash in WoT on day1.  He didn't have a big wagon though

[2.71828.....]

My thoughts on D1:

Mail-mi was the first person to vote Voltaire way back at 226 because of his low roll.  This, combined with his play, I find to be pretty towny.

Good thing about this scenario is: We know two scum roles with relative certainty, Thief and Reroller. With only 3 mafia in total, that means there's only one more role we have to worry about.

A very presumptuous post by Faust.  Especially with the knowledge we all have since town!e/yuma claimed thief.  I wouldn't be too shocked if there exists a town!reroller in the same way there is a town!thief.  (I will discuss the claim and questions related to it in another post)  Town points for XP pointing this out.

Better than spending time on IG right now would be spending time on Box, lio, or BA.

confirmed scum!voltaire wants to spend less time on IG and more on town!Box, lio, or BA.  Nothing to get too excited about, but interesting.

460 gave me a super towny vibe from Box, but we all know he is town now.  The interesting question is why does scum target him?  I think because he was a likely person not to be targeted with medical support.

Hydrad is the first person to really bring Voltaire into the lynch discussion.  And then the first vote on the wagon that ultimately lynches Voltaire.  Town points there.

Ichi quickly joins Hydrad in voting Voltaire, and I got a pretty towny vibe from Ichi most all of D1.

I'm also fine with vote: voltaire. Looks like lots of people are seeing the same things I was.

Funny thing about this post: this was the first time XP ever mentioned Voltaire.  Ever.  Yet "lots of people are seeing the same things I was" and he votes Voltaire.  I find that a fairly suspicious in an otherwise pretty towny D1.  The position that he was at in the wagon (4th voter) is a pretty safe place for scum to positioned on-wagon, and he would have easily been able to remove his vote had the day not ended earlier than it had to.

BA votes Volt, gives some reads, seems pretty towny D1

Yuma is clearly town.

PPS is clearly correct

Then we have the quicklynch trio.  Faust, then PPS, then Ash over a period of 4.5 hours.  I am not really sure what to make of this, but it is interesting.

Now, on to D2

PPE:12

[Hydrad]

I kinda like having e reread everything. It might bring something up that we have forgotten

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hmmm, here's a thing: What kind of anti-town roles do we know about?

Dice stealing/destruction: Claimed to have affected PPS (N0), BoxOfDOG (N0), BA (N1).

Rerolling: Affected me (I was apparently not attacked by the Troll) (D1)

Roll manipulation: Affected PPS (D1), Hydrad (D2) (probably)

We have only two scum players left. Can they really be responsible for all of this...?

unvote

If anyone else is responsible for one of these effects, I think they should claim now.

Ok. Finally caught up on another 6+ pages while I was asleep. Well, I guess it's time I claimed then. Since everything else pretty much has and I think it'll help people figure things out.

I am the Town Priest e.g. Reroller

And I did reroll Faust D1. I have the power to reroll anyone I like; however, it positively or negatively affects me as well, depending. Right now, I think I'm probably going to reroll Hydrad, as it may benefit me, will also provide proof, and does no harm.

[Hydrad]

Hmmm, here's a thing: What kind of anti-town roles do we know about?

Dice stealing/destruction: Claimed to have affected PPS (N0), BoxOfDOG (N0), BA (N1).

Rerolling: Affected me (I was apparently not attacked by the Troll) (D1)

Roll manipulation: Affected PPS (D1), Hydrad (D2) (probably)

We have only two scum players left. Can they really be responsible for all of this...?

unvote

If anyone else is responsible for one of these effects, I think they should claim now.

Ok. Finally caught up on another 6+ pages while I was asleep. Well, I guess it's time I claimed then. Since everything else pretty much has and I think it'll help people figure things out.

I am the Town Priest e.g. Reroller

And I did reroll Faust D1. I have the power to reroll anyone I like; however, it positively or negatively affects me as well, depending. Right now, I think I'm probably going to reroll Hydrad, as it may benefit me, will also provide proof, and does no harm.

I am fine with this I believe. especially since this makes me feel like our kill is safe now that the scum doesn't have a reroll.

[XerxesPraelor]

Why did you reroll him?

[XerxesPraelor]

Oh never mind, figured out.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Why did you reroll him?

1. I didn't exactly understand what my powers did.
2. I felt very strongly at that time that he was scum (haha and you even correctly guessed that I was the one who rerolled him).
3. It had a high chance of benefiting me.

In hindsight, had I understood my own powers better, I would have waited and rerolled someone else. But thankfully we still won that day--and I did benefit from rerolling faust.

PPE: Well then.

[Beyond Awesome]

Hmmm, here's a thing: What kind of anti-town roles do we know about?

Dice stealing/destruction: Claimed to have affected PPS (N0), BoxOfDOG (N0), BA (N1).

Rerolling: Affected me (I was apparently not attacked by the Troll) (D1)

Roll manipulation: Affected PPS (D1), Hydrad (D2) (probably)

We have only two scum players left. Can they really be responsible for all of this...?

unvote

If anyone else is responsible for one of these effects, I think they should claim now.

Ok. Finally caught up on another 6+ pages while I was asleep. Well, I guess it's time I claimed then. Since everything else pretty much has and I think it'll help people figure things out.

I am the Town Priest e.g. Reroller

And I did reroll Faust D1. I have the power to reroll anyone I like; however, it positively or negatively affects me as well, depending. Right now, I think I'm probably going to reroll Hydrad, as it may benefit me, will also provide proof, and does no harm.

What benefit will you get by rerolling hydrad?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hmmm, here's a thing: What kind of anti-town roles do we know about?

Dice stealing/destruction: Claimed to have affected PPS (N0), BoxOfDOG (N0), BA (N1).

Rerolling: Affected me (I was apparently not attacked by the Troll) (D1)

Roll manipulation: Affected PPS (D1), Hydrad (D2) (probably)

We have only two scum players left. Can they really be responsible for all of this...?

unvote

If anyone else is responsible for one of these effects, I think they should claim now.

Ok. Finally caught up on another 6+ pages while I was asleep. Well, I guess it's time I claimed then. Since everything else pretty much has and I think it'll help people figure things out.

I am the Town Priest e.g. Reroller

And I did reroll Faust D1. I have the power to reroll anyone I like; however, it positively or negatively affects me as well, depending. Right now, I think I'm probably going to reroll Hydrad, as it may benefit me, will also provide proof, and does no harm.

What benefit will you get by rerolling hydrad?

If the number he ends up playing is lower than the original, I gain 2 dice to my supply, and if it is higher, I lose 2 dice from my supply. He is now allowed to play the original number. If he rolls a 7 again (because he is cursed or something), he cannot play it and it counts as playing a 0.

[Ichimaru Gin]

*not allowed to play the original number

[Beyond Awesome]

So, if mafia doesn't have a reroller, this could mean that mail-mi actually could be scum after all. Interesting. I do believe you Ichi since we have not seen the reroll power used this day and the fact that you did not use it on me D1.

PPE: 1

[Hydrad]

gin do you know if i would be able to store a die if its higher? since there isn't much point in me playing again.

[Beyond Awesome]

Ichi's claim is also making me believe e/yuma's claim a lot more now. I'm still not sure on him though, but I feel like we have much scummier candidates.

[Ichimaru Gin]

gin do you know if i would be able to store a die if its higher? since there isn't much point in me playing again.

How many dice did you roll? I think the rules say that if you roll 2 or more, you have to play one.
So, if I reroll you and you rolled 2 or more dice, you could play the lower one and save the higher one.

Ah. And actually what it says is you will be unable to roll what you previously played. So I guess you actually can't roll another 7.

[mail-mi]

Well, that explains faust getting rerolled D1, but what about xerxes?

[Hydrad]

gin do you know if i would be able to store a die if its higher? since there isn't much point in me playing again.

How many dice did you roll? I think the rules say that if you roll 2 or more, you have to play one.
So, if I reroll you and you rolled 2 or more dice, you could play the lower one and save the higher one.

Ah. And actually what it says is you will be unable to roll what you previously played. So I guess you actually can't roll another 7.

ok I rolled 2 dice. wait so you have a potential gain of 4 dice? if both dice roll lower?

[Hydrad]

Well, that explains faust getting rerolled D1, but what about xerxes?

xerxes was hit by the monster so I think there is someone that controls the monster as you also got hit

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, that explains faust getting rerolled D1, but what about xerxes?

That was the troll attack.

[mail-mi]

Well, that explains faust getting rerolled D1, but what about xerxes?

That was the troll attack.

right, forgot about that. moving on.

[Ichimaru Gin]

gin do you know if i would be able to store a die if its higher? since there isn't much point in me playing again.

How many dice did you roll? I think the rules say that if you roll 2 or more, you have to play one.
So, if I reroll you and you rolled 2 or more dice, you could play the lower one and save the higher one.

Ah. And actually what it says is you will be unable to roll what you previously played. So I guess you actually can't roll another 7.

ok I rolled 2 dice. wait so you have a potential gain of 4 dice? if both dice roll lower?

It only counts for whichever dice you play. So both of your dice will be rerolled (and I assume you won't be able to reroll 7's for either one).
Then, (hopefully) one dice will be less than 7, you can play that and store the other one if it's a good roll.

[faust]

Okay, fully believe Ichi's claim, and also quite sure he is town. That makes e scummier, again.

[Hydrad]

gin do you know if i would be able to store a die if its higher? since there isn't much point in me playing again.

How many dice did you roll? I think the rules say that if you roll 2 or more, you have to play one.
So, if I reroll you and you rolled 2 or more dice, you could play the lower one and save the higher one.

Ah. And actually what it says is you will be unable to roll what you previously played. So I guess you actually can't roll another 7.

Ah sounds good. I have nothing against this

ok I rolled 2 dice. wait so you have a potential gain of 4 dice? if both dice roll lower?

It only counts for whichever dice you play. So both of your dice will be rerolled (and I assume you won't be able to reroll 7's for either one).
Then, (hopefully) one dice will be less than 7, you can play that and store the other one if it's a good roll.

[Hydrad]

gin do you know if i would be able to store a die if its higher? since there isn't much point in me playing again.

How many dice did you roll? I think the rules say that if you roll 2 or more, you have to play one.
So, if I reroll you and you rolled 2 or more dice, you could play the lower one and save the higher one.

Ah. And actually what it says is you will be unable to roll what you previously played. So I guess you actually can't roll another 7.

ok I rolled 2 dice. wait so you have a potential gain of 4 dice? if both dice roll lower?

It only counts for whichever dice you play. So both of your dice will be rerolled (and I assume you won't be able to reroll 7's for either one).
Then, (hopefully) one dice will be less than 7, you can play that and store the other one if it's a good roll.

Ah sounds good I have nothing agaisnt this.

Also i'm still bad at quotes

[2.71828.....]

Okay, fully believe Ichi's claim, and also quite sure he is town. That makes e scummier, again.

uh.  false.  I think this just confirms even more that town has roles that could easily be scummy.  But when used properly, benefit town.

[2.71828.....]

and I am basically ready to dub Ichi IC.

[Ichimaru Gin]

gin do you know if i would be able to store a die if its higher? since there isn't much point in me playing again.

How many dice did you roll? I think the rules say that if you roll 2 or more, you have to play one.
So, if I reroll you and you rolled 2 or more dice, you could play the lower one and save the higher one.

Ah. And actually what it says is you will be unable to roll what you previously played. So I guess you actually can't roll another 7.

ok I rolled 2 dice. wait so you have a potential gain of 4 dice? if both dice roll lower?

It only counts for whichever dice you play. So both of your dice will be rerolled (and I assume you won't be able to reroll 7's for either one).
Then, (hopefully) one dice will be less than 7, you can play that and store the other one if it's a good roll.

Ah sounds good I have nothing agaisnt this.

Also i'm still bad at quotes

No Worries. Guess I'll reroll you now.

[2.71828.....]

Well, that explains faust getting rerolled D1, but what about xerxes?

xerxes was hit by the monster so I think there is someone that controls the monster as you also got hit

when was xerxes hit by any monsters?  I seem to have missed that

[Hydrad]

Edit: XerxesPraelor has been attacked by the Troll.
Score: 640

Hydrad plays 7
Score: 810 689

here

[2.71828.....]

Edit: XerxesPraelor has been attacked by the Troll.
Score: 640

Hydrad plays 7
Score: 810 689

here

yeah.  I wish we had recalled how his roll got negated after the troll attack before mail-mi went and wasted the double play after he had been attacked.  My guess is scum can target a player for the creature to attack?  But interesting that this targeting (if that is even what it is) occurred at different times D1 and now on D2.  I am not ready to call mail-mi scummy because he overlooked that though.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Edit: XerxesPraelor has been attacked by the Troll.
Score: 640

Hydrad plays 7
Score: 810 689

here

yeah.  I wish we had recalled how his roll got negated after the troll attack before mail-mi went and wasted the double play after he had been attacked.  My guess is scum can target a player for the creature to attack?  But interesting that this targeting (if that is even what it is) occurred at different times D1 and now on D2.  I am not ready to call mail-mi scummy because he overlooked that though.

Well especially considering earlier how people were finding others scum for actually reading the opening post and knowing the Orc's health--yeah that was just weird. I think knowing or not knowing stuff about this setup is a null-tell, mostly because it is pretty complicated and there's a lot going on.

[Hydrad]

Edit: XerxesPraelor has been attacked by the Troll.
Score: 640

Hydrad plays 7
Score: 810 689

here

yeah.  I wish we had recalled how his roll got negated after the troll attack before mail-mi went and wasted the double play after he had been attacked.  My guess is scum can target a player for the creature to attack?  But interesting that this targeting (if that is even what it is) occurred at different times D1 and now on D2.  I am not ready to call mail-mi scummy because he overlooked that though.

But we don't know for sure. In xerxes situation his was rerolled where mails was just cancelled. I'm guessing every monster has a different power.

[pingpongsam]

Just did a 5 page catch up. Driving 500 miles first time with the 8 week old baby and it is hell and hell over again. Interesting things but cannot think right now. About to strike out for the 2nd half of the drive.

I suppose for now Unvote

[liopoil]

Here's a plan:

e targets pingpongsam tonight. If he doesn't get any dice, we can confirm PPS is out of dice. If PPS is really out of dice, he is basically confirmed town, because why would scum reduce their own dice? If e does get dice, PPS is lying scum.

In the meantime, we lynch someone else. I propose WW.

Vote: Witherweaver

There are a lot of variables at play with this plan. Either e or PPS could get NK'd. e might be the thief, claimed to have targeted PPS and then we could end up with someone else that had dice stolen and e could say that he targeted PPS.

PPE: 4

Agree with this, there are so many ways that this could go wrong. Scum could totally use up all of their dice on purpose. E's target could be tampered with, maybe a bus driver or something. I'd rather just lynch pps.

[liopoil]

If WW were scum, I would be shocked. From what I understand, WW is scum pretty much every game he is in, so for once, he has to be town just based on the law of averages. I just don't see WW being scum this game.

is this serious?

[liopoil]

lio, I am not sure. Slight scum read. He just seems to be trying to blend in. That is something I can imagine scum trying to do. So, I am actually thinking he has the best chance at being scum.

Based on that, I think lio seems the best lynch candidate. Chairs and Ash are up there, as well. I will vote lio for now because I think he has the best chance of coming up scum, but I will switch to chairs or Ash if players feel those two are scummier.

Vote: lio

come on. How exactly am I trying to blend in? Is there something I am doing to achieve this that others aren't?

by the way, you essentially say "I will vote for someone else if they are more likely to be lynched". I know this isn't exactly what you say, but the meaning is similar. This is a scummy post, and you are putting your vote on me to put it somewhere, while you wait for there to be somewhere to move it to.

[liopoil]

Has everyone rolled? Is it worth making them roll, play a 4 or something in case somebody is rerolled?

[Beyond Awesome]

lio, I am not sure. Slight scum read. He just seems to be trying to blend in. That is something I can imagine scum trying to do. So, I am actually thinking he has the best chance at being scum.

Based on that, I think lio seems the best lynch candidate. Chairs and Ash are up there, as well. I will vote lio for now because I think he has the best chance of coming up scum, but I will switch to chairs or Ash if players feel those two are scummier.

Vote: lio

come on. How exactly am I trying to blend in? Is there something I am doing to achieve this that others aren't?

by the way, you essentially say "I will vote for someone else if they are more likely to be lynched". I know this isn't exactly what you say, but the meaning is similar. This is a scummy post, and you are putting your vote on me to put it somewhere, while you wait for there to be somewhere to move it to.

I don't see how that is scummy. I voted for you because you seem most likely scum. However, the other players I also mentioned give me a scummy vibe, so if for some reason, the other players started voting for the other two players I mentioned, I would change my vote. I was putting it out there now that I found those other players scummy but got the strongest scum vibe from you.

[Beyond Awesome]

Has everyone rolled? Is it worth making them roll, play a 4 or something in case somebody is rerolled?

Ichi has the reroll ability. There is no point in having the other players roll.

[Beyond Awesome]

lio, I am not sure. Slight scum read. He just seems to be trying to blend in. That is something I can imagine scum trying to do. So, I am actually thinking he has the best chance at being scum.

Based on that, I think lio seems the best lynch candidate. Chairs and Ash are up there, as well. I will vote lio for now because I think he has the best chance of coming up scum, but I will switch to chairs or Ash if players feel those two are scummier.

Vote: lio

come on. How exactly am I trying to blend in? Is there something I am doing to achieve this that others aren't?

by the way, you essentially say "I will vote for someone else if they are more likely to be lynched". I know this isn't exactly what you say, but the meaning is similar. This is a scummy post, and you are putting your vote on me to put it somewhere, while you wait for there to be somewhere to move it to.

In other words, I have no trouble voting for Ash or chairs.

[Beyond Awesome]

You, ash, and chairs are my top scum picks.

e was up there, but I am starting to believe his claim a little more after thinking things through and also after ichi claimed.

[liopoil]

okay, that's fine, but the way you said it originally suggested otherwise. And you still haven't explained:

lio, I am not sure. Slight scum read. He just seems to be trying to blend in. That is something I can imagine scum trying to do. So, I am actually thinking he has the best chance at being scum.

Based on that, I think lio seems the best lynch candidate. Chairs and Ash are up there, as well. I will vote lio for now because I think he has the best chance of coming up scum, but I will switch to chairs or Ash if players feel those two are scummier.

Vote: lio

come on. How exactly am I trying to blend in? Is there something I am doing to achieve this that others aren't?

[liopoil]

It seems that some people are forgetting that:

Unless stated otherwise, all roles and parts of roles are assigned completely randomly and independently of alignment.

[2.71828.....]

Ok.  I have finished rereading the thread.  Yay for not having any work to do this afternoon.  (well, at least nothing that couldn't be put off until Tuesday after the holiday).

Reads post (post counts are through 1098, when I started writing this post):

ashersky- 56 posts.  Had a great response to the hammer in 960.  I am getting a towny feeling from him right now.  I like the hammer gambit that he played, and don't think he would have done that as scum.  Maybe on a later day if scum were doing well, but on D1 after town had just defeated the monster?  I don't think so.

chairs- 25 posts all game.  So fairly inactive.  His overall play has seemed towny to me, but we need more interaction.  The biggest things about him right now:  He is against claiming and he had a semi-suspicious post about Voltaire.  I don't think either of these are reasons to suspect that he is scum.

e- town thief.  Kind of like a Robin Hood.  I steal from the rich for the benefit of the poor.  Well, the people I steal from don't necessarily have to be rich, but it really is for the benefit of the group.  And Faust, that is all I really feel like expanding on my role right now.

mail-mi- 29 posts.  Not very active.  Votes Voltaire for not rolling a 5.  Had this super-secret power that made him not want to roll D1, then gets 2 plays D2.  Seems like a useful power, but if it had cumulative effect I think he should have waited as long as possible before playing so long as the monster was already defeated.  (like if he were able to play 3 dice tomorrow)  But he rolled today and played and his dice didn't count presumably because of the attack on him.  I could see this as a very clever scum ploy or town who made a mistake.  Right now I lean town on mail-mi.

faust- 146 posts.  Very active.  Very bossy too.  But I like bossy, take charge kind of players.  They make the game more fun.  It is a total null read on town/scum, but it makes the game more enjoyable for everyone.  Overall, I am slightly suspicious of him, but nothing actionable and I also have a soft spot for people who are super active.

XerxesPraelor- 48 posts.  He had what I view as a suspicious vote for Voltaire, but upon rereading his posts I get a pretty decent town vibe from him. 

Witherweaver- 169 posts.  So very active.  No one has brought any super serious cases against him, and he has been scum in like every single game, so while the Law of Averages is crap, as Faust and WW both mentioned, I do think he is town.

Beyond Awesome- 99 posts.  I get a scummy feeling from him. Throws out a nice 12 for some good town cred D1.  He does put Voltaire at L-3, but that is a middle-of-the-wagon spot and is a null tell.  Has some dice lost/stolen/destroyed N1.  I did not steal dice from BA.  As yuma posted in the claim, I stole from Box both N0 and N1.  So either there is another person who can steal/destroy dice, or BA is lying.  However, since PPS and Box lost dice from N0, I tend to think there are multiple dice thieves/destroyers.  I still get a scummy feeling from BA though.

Ichimaru Gin- 101 posts.  I was leaning town, then he claimed.  I totally believe the claim.  I also think he is town.  If you couldn't already tell.

liopoil- 64 posts.  towny.  Because of this, this, this, this, this, and this.

Hydrad- 73 posts.  New town.  I like that he started the wagon on Voltaire, and I have liked his play so far and think he is town.

pingpongsam- 102 posts.  Has an "anti-town" power and claims to be the Swindler.  Had half of his dice stolen D1.  With all of that said, he is town.  He spotted Voltaire as possible scum very early.  His vote was a confirmation of that earlier read.  And while I am not so sure that his method (whatever it is) is actually flawless and I disagree with him about Ash, I do think he is town.



Summary:

Scummy: BA
null/scum: chairs, mail-mi, Faust
null/town: Liopoil, WW, XP, Ash
town: PPS, Ichi, Hydrad, and clearly e

[Beyond Awesome]

okay, that's fine, but the way you said it originally suggested otherwise. And you still haven't explained:

lio, I am not sure. Slight scum read. He just seems to be trying to blend in. That is something I can imagine scum trying to do. So, I am actually thinking he has the best chance at being scum.

Based on that, I think lio seems the best lynch candidate. Chairs and Ash are up there, as well. I will vote lio for now because I think he has the best chance of coming up scum, but I will switch to chairs or Ash if players feel those two are scummier.

Vote: lio

come on. How exactly am I trying to blend in? Is there something I am doing to achieve this that others aren't?

I guess you have not really said anything or done anything that stands out to me. That's what I mean.

[chairs]

Just FYI, I will be V/LA for 'Murica's birthday as I will be spending the weekend (starting tonight) with my girlfriend's family, far from my sweet, sweet computer.

I will try to read from my phone but I make no guarantees.

[liopoil]

Play: 1

obvscum! He was scum the last time he did this!!

In other news, e looks like town, and so do faust and ichimaru gin. But I already had those latter two reads.

pps on the other hand, looks like scum. mail-mi, beyond awesome, and ashersky do too, but to a lesser extent.

Oh, and a bit on a townread on Hydrad for his interactions with faust.

[Hydrad]

My top 3 scum reads right now are BA ww and pps.

I also still kinda suspect Asher but apparently this is how he can normally play so he's really hard for me to read

[liopoil]

I also still kinda suspect Asher but apparently this is how he can normally play so he's really hard for me to read

Well, it sort of is how he normally plays. Sometimes he is even more crazy.

[Witherweaver]

Ichi, why not reroll a low roller day 1?  Even if Faust is scum, why would rerolling his dice be good?  Shouldn't killing the Troll have been your first priority?

[Hydrad]

Ichi, why not reroll a low roller day 1?  Even if Faust is scum, why would rerolling his dice be good?  Shouldn't killing the Troll have been your first priority?

While I agree that this can seem scummy the fact that he claimed today when he could of just stayed hidden and have a really high chance of making it so that we couldn't kill the monster makes him town for me.

I think he mentioned something about not fully inderstanding his power at first though

[Hydrad]

Ichi I have a question just for curiosities sake. Could you reroll a die that someone stored and then played?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ichi, why not reroll a low roller day 1?  Even if Faust is scum, why would rerolling his dice be good?  Shouldn't killing the Troll have been your first priority?

Hydrad is correct. At that point, I understood less of the effects of how my powers work. Of course, I should have waited and used it on a low roller--like Voltaire or some such. Of course it makes no sense for scum!me to reroll faust (which makes him look townier) just because I was arguing with him. Me having a strong scumread on him at the time for tunneling me was a big part of why I rerolled him though.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ichi I have a question just for curiosities sake. Could you reroll a die that someone stored and then played?

Um. That's a good question. I'd tend to think not, since I think I can only reroll dice that were rolled on that particular day. (also, my power only works during day). And checking yeah, it only works if the play I target actually rolled dice on the actual day. So maybe if you rolled a die, stored it and then played it...I'm not sure. Maybe I'll post the question in my qt.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Thinking on it more, I'm sure that that wouldn't work. You wouldn't be able to roll a die, store it, and play it all in the same day due to the rules. So yeah, my power doesn't work when you play stored dice.

[Hydrad]

Ichi I have a question just for curiosities sake. Could you reroll a die that someone stored and then played?

Um. That's a good question. I'd tend to think not, since I think I can only reroll dice that were rolled on that particular day. (also, my power only works during day). And checking yeah, it only works if the play I target actually rolled dice on the actual day. So maybe if you rolled a die, stored it and then played it...I'm not sure. Maybe I'll post the question in my qt.

Ya it's probably not that importent as I doubt it will occur in this game. I just enjoy figuring out how everything works

[EFHW]

Vote Count 2.5

Beyond Awesome (1): chairs
chairs (1): mail-mi
pingpongsam (2): Ichimaru Gin, liopoil
2.71828..... (2): XerxesPraelor, Beyond Awesome
liopoil (1): ashersky
Witherweaver (2): faust, Hydrad

not voting (3): 2.71828....., Witherweaver, pingpongsam

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 9 at 11pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 11 at 11pm forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 60

[Hydrad]

Ok I have all of the bad luck in the world for rolls right now.

Play: 1

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok I have all of the bad luck in the world for rolls right now.

Play: 1

Well rolling two high numbers here would actually hurt me, but I'm assuming you rolled 2 low ones, which isn't so good.

That being said, this makes me feel significantly townier on you that you are basically cooperating to help a town PR increase their strength. I mean, I obviously thought you were town before, but this strengthens my read on you.

[Hydrad]

Ok I have all of the bad luck in the world for rolls right now.

Play: 1

Well rolling two high numbers here would actually hurt me, but I'm assuming you rolled 2 low ones, which isn't so good.

That being said, this makes me feel significantly townier on you that you are basically cooperating to help a town PR increase their strength. I mean, I obviously thought you were town before, but this strengthens my read on you.

Well if only I could roll higher then a 7 once that would be nice

[Jimmmmm]

Ichimaru Gin plays a 1
Score: 60

[Hydrad]

Ichimaru Gin plays a 1
Score: 60

That could of been an interesting mess up lol

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ichimaru Gin plays a 1
Score: 60

That could of been an interesting mess up lol

Had me scared for a second!

[Witherweaver]

Wait, why did we do that?  Do we know there are no scum roles than can change played dice?

[Witherweaver]

I mean, wouldn't it be better to wait to be sure we don't need to use the reroll power if anything happens.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Wait, why did we do that?  Do we know there are no scum roles than can change played dice?

Yeah. Kind of.

I'm the reroller. Thieves can't change dice. The monster already attacked. Plus, I don't think the odds of anyone rolling number x again are that good.

[Witherweaver]

But if reroller is town and thief is town, and destroy-half-supply-rounded-up-or-maybe-down (no one else thinks that's strange?) is a scum ability, what's the other one?  Monster control?  Maybe , but it could be factional ability, or random.

[Ichimaru Gin]

But if reroller is town and thief is town, and destroy-half-supply-rounded-up-or-maybe-down (no one else thinks that's strange?) is a scum ability, what's the other one?  Monster control?  Maybe , but it could be factional ability, or random.

Yeah that is a good question. It'd be interesting if it was like Mafia Beastman or something. But from who they've attacked, I feel like it may be more random. Especially since it says "some level of control" it doesn't sound like they can neccesarily pinpoint attacks--though it does look like they can choose when the attacks happen.

[Hydrad]

But if reroller is town and thief is town, and destroy-half-supply-rounded-up-or-maybe-down (no one else thinks that's strange?) is a scum ability, what's the other one?  Monster control?  Maybe , but it could be factional ability, or random.

Yeah that is a good question. It'd be interesting if it was like Mafia Beastman or something. But from who they've attacked, I feel like it may be more random. Especially since it says "some level of control" it doesn't sound like they can neccesarily pinpoint attacks--though it does look like they can choose when the attacks happen.

I feel like some level of control might be that they don't know the power the monster will have? Becuase it's hitting pretty good targets.

Actually if BA was the beast master and wasn't allowed to target himself that would explain why the 12 stayed

[2.71828.....]

I think that any control scum has over the beast is probably factional and not a specific power.

Also, I think that I will roll today even though we have already defeated the current monster.  I think we need to prepare for future monsters.

MONSTERS

WITCH - When a die is played (besides the first die played for the Day), it only counts if it has opposite parity (odd/even) to the previous die played.

DRAGON - When a die of value n is played, it only counts if a die of value n-1 has previously been played.

OGRE - Only 1s and 2s count.

GOBLIN - Even numbers count as negative.

TROLL - The value of all played dice is squared.

ORC - Only the first instance of each value played counts.

The attacking Monster, as well as the target to beat it, will be announced at the beginning of each Day.

The four remaining monsters all seem pretty tough.  For example, only 1s and 2s counting is a difficult proposition.  Or the dragon.  Or any of them.  The fact remains that we need to have some flexibility, and if I have some stored rolls, it might help if we need a specific number.

I propose that I roll and store a die in case we need it D3 or D4 or D5 or whenever.

My question to you all is what do you think would be most strategic to store?  A 2 in case we face the ogre next?  A 9 or 11 in case we face the goblin?

I wanted to share the idea with everyone before I went ahead and just rolled.

[Witherweaver]

Does anyone have an ability to tell us what monster we'll face tomorrow?

[Hydrad]

One thing is we can't be sure the monsters are out. Thy could easily be decided by a 6 sided die. Although personally I feel like it's not that as jimmmm probably wants us to face all of them.

Also I feel like 11 is the best to save as I think it is good in the most situations

[Beyond Awesome]

I think that any control scum has over the beast is probably factional and not a specific power.

Also, I think that I will roll today even though we have already defeated the current monster.  I think we need to prepare for future monsters.

MONSTERS

WITCH - When a die is played (besides the first die played for the Day), it only counts if it has opposite parity (odd/even) to the previous die played.

DRAGON - When a die of value n is played, it only counts if a die of value n-1 has previously been played.

OGRE - Only 1s and 2s count.

GOBLIN - Even numbers count as negative.

TROLL - The value of all played dice is squared.

ORC - Only the first instance of each value played counts.

The attacking Monster, as well as the target to beat it, will be announced at the beginning of each Day.

The four remaining monsters all seem pretty tough.  For example, only 1s and 2s counting is a difficult proposition.  Or the dragon.  Or any of them.  The fact remains that we need to have some flexibility, and if I have some stored rolls, it might help if we need a specific number.

I propose that I roll and store a die in case we need it D3 or D4 or D5 or whenever.

My question to you all is what do you think would be most strategic to store?  A 2 in case we face the ogre next?  A 9 or 11 in case we face the goblin?

I wanted to share the idea with everyone before I went ahead and just rolled.

I think you should make that call on your own because we don't want mafia to use that knowledge to decide what monster to use on us next, assuming they have any say on when the monsters come out.

[Hydrad]

I think that any control scum has over the beast is probably factional and not a specific power.

Also, I think that I will roll today even though we have already defeated the current monster.  I think we need to prepare for future monsters.

MONSTERS

WITCH - When a die is played (besides the first die played for the Day), it only counts if it has opposite parity (odd/even) to the previous die played.

DRAGON - When a die of value n is played, it only counts if a die of value n-1 has previously been played.

OGRE - Only 1s and 2s count.

GOBLIN - Even numbers count as negative.

TROLL - The value of all played dice is squared.

ORC - Only the first instance of each value played counts.

The attacking Monster, as well as the target to beat it, will be announced at the beginning of each Day.

The four remaining monsters all seem pretty tough.  For example, only 1s and 2s counting is a difficult proposition.  Or the dragon.  Or any of them.  The fact remains that we need to have some flexibility, and if I have some stored rolls, it might help if we need a specific number.

I propose that I roll and store a die in case we need it D3 or D4 or D5 or whenever.

My question to you all is what do you think would be most strategic to store?  A 2 in case we face the ogre next?  A 9 or 11 in case we face the goblin?

I wanted to share the idea with everyone before I went ahead and just rolled.

I think you should make that call on your own because we don't want mafia to use that knowledge to decide what monster to use on us next, assuming they have any say on when the monsters come out.

This may just be because I highly suspect you of being scum but I feel like your advice is just a way to make you look like town. Personally I doubt scum can controll what monster appears.

If this is true your advice doesn't actually do anything while you can gain some rep.

Now although I have said all this I still agree with you

[Hydrad]

And although I like fausts plan I just feel like BA is way more scummy so I'm going to

Vote: BA

[Beyond Awesome]

Honestly, I have been set up, and you guys need to see that.

I think Ichi's reroll on D1 messed things up a bit because people were wondering why I wasn't rerolled because everyone thought scum did not reroll me. Then, scum sees that people are questioning that, so they reroll XP who had an 11 with the attack to draw further suspicion onto me.

Then, on D2, I have my dice stolen which I made a point with PPS, drawing suspicion onto him when I had my dice stolen. And, then I get a low roll, a 5 which I can't help because I could not roll more dice. I think scum did this because they saw what happened D1 and felt they could set up a case to get me mislynched.

I'm not trying to be scummy. If it were not for Ichi's reroll D1, I think things would be a lot different. No offense Ichi. You made the right call with the reroll, but it did draw a lot of suspicion onto me.

[Beyond Awesome]

Then, on D2, I have my dice stolen which I made a point with PPS, drawing suspicion onto him when I had my dice stolen. And, then I get a low roll, a 5 which I can't help because I could not roll more dice. I think scum did this because they saw what happened D1 and felt they could set up a case to get me mislynched.

Sorry, I meant to say on D1, I was drawing suspicion onto PPS for having his dice stolen, and then on D2, I have the exact same thing happen to me that I made a huge deal out of with PPS. Honestly, if I were scum, why the hell would I target myself after I made a huge deal with PPS about having his dice stolen. That would be stupid.

[Beyond Awesome]

The rerolling of XP through the attack.
My dice getting stolen on D2.
All of that was done to set me up to look like scum. Think about it.

[Beyond Awesome]

Oh, and another thing, I am not denying these events make me look scummy. Actually, all of this does make me look scummy. I am well aware of that, but this is all beyond my control. I ask you guys to please go back and reread D1 based on Ichi's claim that he had the reroll power. That really changes perspectives on things. Scum took advantage of what happened to faust's reroll with XP and since D1 they have been setting me up to be the mislynch.

Then, we go onto D2, crap happens to my dice, and it makes me even look scummier. But, ask yourselves this, why would scum do that to themselves when it is a move that would obviously draw attention to that player. It drew attention to PPS and now me, especially because I was one of the players feeling that PPS could have targeted himself or had a team mate targeting him. Anyway, a lot of people seeing me scummy at the start of D2 had to do with me not getting rerolled D1. We now know that Ichi rerolled faust. So, yah.

[XerxesPraelor]

unvote

vote: hydrad

He looks very opportunistic in terms of lynching, probes roles, and other stuff too.

[Hydrad]

unvote

vote: hydrad

He looks very opportunistic in terms of lynching, probes roles, and other stuff too.

Aha I think my first vote against me! Anyways I won't argue with what you said as it's pretty much true.

[faust]

Summary:

Scummy: BA
null/scum: chairs, mail-mi, Faust
null/town: Liopoil, WW, XP, Ash
town: PPS, Ichi, Hydrad, and clearly e

I am correctly reading that how people behaved towards Voltaire doesn't affect your reads at all?

[faust]

I think that any control scum has over the beast is probably factional and not a specific power.

Also, I think that I will roll today even though we have already defeated the current monster.  I think we need to prepare for future monsters.

MONSTERS

WITCH - When a die is played (besides the first die played for the Day), it only counts if it has opposite parity (odd/even) to the previous die played.

DRAGON - When a die of value n is played, it only counts if a die of value n-1 has previously been played.

OGRE - Only 1s and 2s count.

GOBLIN - Even numbers count as negative.

TROLL - The value of all played dice is squared.

ORC - Only the first instance of each value played counts.

The attacking Monster, as well as the target to beat it, will be announced at the beginning of each Day.

The four remaining monsters all seem pretty tough.  For example, only 1s and 2s counting is a difficult proposition.  Or the dragon.  Or any of them.  The fact remains that we need to have some flexibility, and if I have some stored rolls, it might help if we need a specific number.

I propose that I roll and store a die in case we need it D3 or D4 or D5 or whenever.

My question to you all is what do you think would be most strategic to store?  A 2 in case we face the ogre next?  A 9 or 11 in case we face the goblin?

I wanted to share the idea with everyone before I went ahead and just rolled.

Err... pretty sure yuma already rolled.

[faust]

Oh, and another thing, I am not denying these events make me look scummy. Actually, all of this does make me look scummy. I am well aware of that, but this is all beyond my control. I ask you guys to please go back and reread D1 based on Ichi's claim that he had the reroll power. That really changes perspectives on things. Scum took advantage of what happened to faust's reroll with XP and since D1 they have been setting me up to be the mislynch.

This is actually a good point.

[faust]

Anyone who votes for players on the Voltaire wagon: Why is that better than lynching off-wagon?

e: Do you agree to carry out my plan?

[faust]

Also, where is ashersky?

[Hydrad]

Anyone who votes for players on the Voltaire wagon: Why is that better than lynching off-wagon?

e: Do you agree to carry out my plan?

I guess I'm voting based on gut but I could be missing a basic strategy. Why is voting off wagon so importent when there is probably a scum also on the wagon

[ashersky]

Also, where is ashersky?

I'm around.  It's a holiday.

[faust]

A reminder to everyone that it is now easy for scum!e to appear townie by doing rereads and stuff because he just entered the game. But him doing that is a null tell at best.

[faust]

Also, where is ashersky?

I'm around.  It's a holiday.

Sorry, I sometimes forget that... Also checked and it's been only a day since your last post. This game is just moving so fast...

[faust]

Anyone who votes for players on the Voltaire wagon: Why is that better than lynching off-wagon?

e: Do you agree to carry out my plan?

I guess I'm voting based on gut but I could be missing a basic strategy. Why is voting off wagon so importent when there is probably a scum also on the wagon

Do you think scum would be willing to lynch one of their own D1?

[Hydrad]

Anyone who votes for players on the Voltaire wagon: Why is that better than lynching off-wagon?

e: Do you agree to carry out my plan?

I guess I'm voting based on gut but I could be missing a basic strategy. Why is voting off wagon so importent when there is probably a scum also on the wagon

Do you think scum would be willing to lynch one of their own D1?

I doubt both would but could see a possibility of hopping on near the beginning or middle and not being able to leave as it would rise suspicion.

But your making me second guess myself now.

[Beyond Awesome]

Even if one scum were on-wagon and one off, there are 5 people off which means we have higher odds of hitting scum by voting for someone off wagon.

[Hydrad]

Hmm ok that makes sense although I hate jumping around this much with my voting so maybe I should sit back for a while.

If I can have a say then I feel like chairs is my top guess off wagon with WW being second

Although I still have BA as a top scum suspect for now I'll agree to lynch off wagon

unvote for now

[faust]

e- town thief.  Kind of like a Robin Hood.  I steal from the rich for the benefit of the poor.  Well, the people I steal from don't necessarily have to be rich, but it really is for the benefit of the group.  And Faust, that is all I really feel like expanding on my role right now.

I didn't even realize this until now... you believe there is a scum double of your role, and yet you are unwilling to disclose details about your role?

Vote: e

[XerxesPraelor]

I'm guessing e claims to think the scum role is a die destroyer, not a thief.

[2.71828.....]

unvote

vote: hydrad

He looks very opportunistic in terms of lynching, probes roles, and other stuff too.

Aha I think my first vote against me! Anyways I won't argue with what you said as it's pretty much true.

hydrad=town

[2.71828.....]

I'm guessing e claims to think the scum role is a die destroyer, not a thief.

I have no clue what exactly the other person who removes dice from a player gets.  I know that I am a thief, and that I gain the dice that the other player loses.  It would make sense that the other person who takes away dice is also a thief, but I think the mechanic has to be different.  I mean, this is RMM, and I doubt two roles would be exactly the same, which is why I keep an open mind as to whether this person actually steals or just destroys.

[liopoil]

You have to consider the context in which the player was on-wagon, not just say, "They're on wagon". For some people that means that they deserve little or no towncred for it.

faust: are you aware of all the things that could go terribly wrong with your plan?

[2.71828.....]

e: Do you agree to carry out my plan?

no

[pingpongsam]

Pretty much VLA today, yesterday kicked my butt now it's a holiday with family and new baby plus yesterday was my birthday. Not lining up to be a good day to spend staring at the ipad. I will be following the game though.

[2.71828.....]

Anyone who votes for players on the Voltaire wagon: Why is that better than lynching off-wagon?

I think that it is very likely that scum is on-wagon.  Why is that?   Because you, PPS, and Ashersky took him from L-3 to lynch in a very short window.  Not enough time for scum to have a "wait up here lets think about this some more.  unvote" post that would be forgotten and written off. 

I don't care to look up examples, but I am sure some of you who have been scum several times can give examples of voting for your partner early in the day with a safe vote, but removing that vote at a good time.  f.ds mafia tends to almost always take the full amount of time every day, so ending the day 48 hours before evening and a full 96 hours before the end of the day could have easily caught scum on-wagon.

[Hydrad]

So we've had 2 people claim. But it looks like we might wait till D3 for everyone to claim?

[pingpongsam]

Anyone who votes for players on the Voltaire wagon: Why is that better than lynching off-wagon?

I think that it is very likely that scum is on-wagon.  Why is that?   Because you, PPS, and Ashersky took him from L-3 to lynch in a very short window.  Not enough time for scum to have a "wait up here lets think about this some more.  unvote" post that would be forgotten and written off. 

I don't care to look up examples, but I am sure some of you who have been scum several times can give examples of voting for your partner early in the day with a safe vote, but removing that vote at a good time.  f.ds mafia tends to almost always take the full amount of time every day, so ending the day 48 hours before evening and a full 96 hours before the end of the day could have easily caught scum on-wagon.

This makes sense with regards to narrowing the pool of candidates. I also agree with the premise but I don't count on it being effective. Narrowing the pool represents two things depending on alignment. For scum it is a method known as forcing where you appear to give choice but limit those choices to the desires of the former towards a known outcome. For town it basically means we forgo our individual scum hunting skills for an easier consensus, basically admitting we just don't know what we're doing so let's just trim our options.

I happen to think scum is more likely off wagon. However, they could have easily been half on half off, no way they were all on there.

Let us assume half on half off and that we drop the final 3 voters on the wagon leaving 5 candidates. 20% odds of hitting the one scum in 5. Guess how many people were off wagon, that's right, 5. Thus, unless there is a compelling case that scum was either all on or all off I think this method offers no advantage over other means of locating scum.

[Hydrad]

Wait actually is there only 4 people that were off the wagon?

chairs, e, WW, and liopoil?

[Beyond Awesome]

Wait actually is there only 4 people that were off the wagon?

chairs, e, WW, and liopoil?

You are correct. I did not notice was not voting. Well, then, that makes things easier. I would say voting off wagon then gives us an excellent chance at finding scum.

With that said chairs and lio are my top two choices. I was voting for lio early, but I really, really, really don't like chairs meta, so

Vote: Chairs

[Beyond Awesome]

I meant to say I did not notice Box was not voting.

[mail-mi]

Hey guys i think i'm going to have to /out because I'm going on a week long camping trip next week and I won't be able to post at all.

[Hydrad]

Hey guys i think i'm going to have to /out because I'm going on a week long camping trip next week and I won't be able to post at all.

sadness

[pingpongsam]

Wait actually is there only 4 people that were off the wagon?

chairs, e, WW, and liopoil?

You are correct. I did not notice was not voting. Well, then, that makes things easier. I would say voting off wagon then gives us an excellent chance at finding scum.

With that said chairs and lio are my top two choices. I was voting for lio early, but I really, really, really don't like chairs meta, so

Vote: Chairs

I missed the fact box was eliminated from the off wagon pool. This definitely improves my optimism for finding scum off wagon. I suppose I would have to entertain that scum considered this when they offed him so I feel more strongly that there is only one scum off wagon and less certain they were not all on wagon.

[Hydrad]

I still feel like there is a really low chance that 2 people were on the wagon. but it is weird that they would kill someone off the wagon to make us able to choose better

[liopoil]

Checking in again, been busy today.. On/off isn't what matters, what matters is their interaction with voltaire, which can include their vote/not vote. Context!!

[faust]

Wait actually is there only 4 people that were off the wagon?

chairs, e, WW, and liopoil?

You are correct. I did not notice was not voting. Well, then, that makes things easier. I would say voting off wagon then gives us an excellent chance at finding scum.

With that said chairs and lio are my top two choices. I was voting for lio early, but I really, really, really don't like chairs meta, so

Vote: Chairs

I missed the fact box was eliminated from the off wagon pool. This definitely improves my optimism for finding scum off wagon. I suppose I would have to entertain that scum considered this when they offed him so I feel more strongly that there is only one scum off wagon and less certain they were not all on wagon.

Box wasn't really a tactical kill though. They needed to kill someone who wouldn't be protected, Box claimed lots of dice, so they chose him. On-wagoners were much more likely to be protected.

[faust]

e: Do you agree to carry out my plan?

no

Explain yourself!

[faust]

You have to consider the context in which the player was on-wagon, not just say, "They're on wagon". For some people that means that they deserve little or no towncred for it.

faust: are you aware of all the things that could go terribly wrong with your plan?

Apparently not. What do you mean?

[2.71828.....]

e: Do you agree to carry out my plan?

no

Explain yourself!

Can you explain again why it would be such a great idea?  You say it will establish PPS as an IC?  Well, I do not think so.  I mean, whatever report I come back with will need to be solidified at some point.  i.e. either PPS or myself need to flip scum/town.  Now, why would scum kill us before that point?  No, the best route would be to kill the first of us with a lynch.  You are already biased into thinking that I am scum, and that sets me up as an easy mislynch.  I get mislynched, and then scum can kill the now-IC PPS that night.  Or vice-versa.

Basically, unless you are willing to fully believe any report that I come back with, we might as well not do the plan.  And if you will already fully believe whatever report I come back with, then you are basically saying that you already think that I am town.

[liopoil]

You have to consider the context in which the player was on-wagon, not just say, "They're on wagon". For some people that means that they deserve little or no towncred for it.

faust: are you aware of all the things that could go terribly wrong with your plan?

Apparently not. What do you mean?

I mean that there are a lot of things that can go terribly wrong with your plan, as I and others have outlined I believe. Plus, e doesn't seem like he is going to do it (and I don't blame him for that either).

[Hydrad]

Hmm so does anyone have other plans? Or is it right now just kinda lynch who you think is scum

[Hydrad]

Personally I like the lynch someone off the wagon strat and feel chairs is the most likely scum

[Witherweaver]

Personally I like the lynch someone off the wagon strat and feel chairs is the most likely scum

Why is he the most likely?  I see a lot of these posts from you ("X seems most likely scum right now"), and it seems very arbitrary to me.

[Witherweaver]

Oh, right, faust was re-rolled today.

Re-reading lio, he started off with lots of theory talk, pushed XP, then back to rolling theory talk. I actually feel really good about this.

This early-ish post from Voltaire lowers the likelihood that Lio is scum in my eyes.

[Witherweaver]

yuma looks like town, so that's good.

Ichi's most recent posts are also on the townier side.

How about vote: Voltaire? He just feels like scum. Will look at this in more detail after the weekend.

Oh yeah, that's L-2.

Faust here puts Volt at L-2.  Would he do this to his partner?  I'm pretty sure Faust is not a gambit-lynch-my-own-partner-for-town-points scum player, unless he's pretty certain his partner is caught (e.g., Xerxes in Innovation).  It didn't seem like Volt was caught at this point, at least from my point of view the lynch was far from being decided and there were quite a few candidates.  So, in this line of thinking, a scum Faust would only do this if he thought Volt was going to get out of this.

I find Faust less likely scum for this.  The only caveat would be "will look at this in more detail after the weekend"... setting up an out to say he changed his mind and unvote.. but very dangerous to do if Volt does get lynched and flips scum.  To me this vote looks scummy only in the case that Volt is town.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Voltaire

That is L-1.

This is PPS's vote for Volt, and this follows:

Voltaire is way outside his meta. I believe it unlikely he and ashersky are partners so his flip will be largely informative.

Now a hypothetical scum PPS has to ask how "caught" Volt is and if he needs to hop on the wagon for town points.  That one is really hard for me to judge.. but this feels like town. 

[Witherweaver]

Volt's very first post is to vote Hydrad in RVS:

Hello all! I highly doubt the stones don't matter simply based on the way they're written so far. I'll have to double check, but even with the "ignore the flavor" post there's just no way.

Not quite sure how the small changes from the first game will affect anything, if at all.

vote: Hydrad for never having played with me before.

makes scum Hydrad slightly more likely, I think, but I don't have a lot of conviction in that.  The idea would be that scum are likely to place a vote on their partner early to establish some interaction, but not when anything is in serious risk of happening.

Very big town read on XP. Very unclear on ash.

The way things went down with PPS, I lean town on him. Enough that I don't want to lynch him D1. Two off so far (XP, PPS).

This is another point against PPS being scum (unfortunate, since I kind of want to lynch him~).  XP as well.  I don't think scum Volt wants to come out and take his partner completely off the lynch table his the third or fourth post of the game.  On the other hand, Volt has an established Meta for his day 1 elimination process, so he can argue against being incriminated if PPS or XP ever flipped scum.

[Witherweaver]

Volt's first read post for reference:

WW's early posts about the set-up scream "scum trying to make townslips" to me. This is possibly because my brain is conditioned to now always assume he is scum. But actually wow. There's a lot of them.

IG's posts scream scum but what I thought was a fast wagon scared me off. Now that I look, I see he only has two votes.

It's been a long time. Welcome back, D1 POE.

ashersky
chairs
yuma
mail-mi
BoxOfDog
Voltaire - me
faust - reroll. See comments on PPS.
XerxesPraelor - big town read
Witherweaver
Beyond Awesome - posts read townie, questions strike me as possible to come from new(er) player with vet partners. Low on list of candidates. His 12 not getting re-rolled seems like it could easily be framing, too.
Ichimaru Gin
liopoil
Hydrad - new
pingpongsam - dice swiped (yes, possibly a lie/gambit/action bussing by scum, but I do not think scum does this sort of thing nearly as often as we think they do)

Did scum target themselves last game with anti-town powers? I forget.

Not sure what this says.. Hydrad interaction here is null since don't lynch new player is a policy for most of us.  I might guess BA is not a partner from this, since he's the only one with much of an explanation of why he has a town read.. scum generally wouldn't want to highlight their partner this much. Partners are probably more likely to be someone without a comment or one of the "policy" reasons (Faust, Hydrad, PPS).  PPS looks slightly guilty by association here since Volt feels the need to include a caveat how PPS might not be town, but explains its unlikelihood.   

[Witherweaver]

So this is weird:

Better than spending time on IG right now would be spending time on Box, lio, or BA.

I'm still here, just very busy recently. I like both lio and IG but I want to re-read to make sure that makes sense.

I liked lio more before ash voted for him.

Two days apart but Volt only had three posts between them with little content.  He had defended Ichi before the first quote, too.  Neither had much of a wagon, Volt didn't either.  I have trouble seeing Ichi and Volt as partners here, especially after these later interactions:

How about vote: Voltaire for basically saying "yes you are correct, but I'm not scum". He was interested that people didn't vote for him, well in this wake of explanationless votes, I'm voting Volt.

This is not what I said, please re-read it.

I acknowledged that I was different - I haven't been as uber-involved as I normally am D1. This does not make me scum. It makes me busy.

This has happened before - the newbie game, I think? - and I was found scummy for it then, too. Look, I get that HEY VOLT IS DIFFERENT THAT WHAT I THINK HE IS THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLANATION THAN ALIGNMENT is a natural thought, but really? You can't look deeper?

There is nothing in lio I see that requires a stance, other than on me. Seriously. That's pretty not ok.

[Witherweaver]

Volt's analysis of his own wagon:

There is nothing in lio I see that requires a stance, other than on me. Seriously. That's pretty not ok.

What does this mean?

It's not true, at least not after your recent set of posts. Catching up.

I still want to know what you meant to say, because your sentence doesn't make sense right now.

What I meant to say was, you struck me as basically doing what I'd been accused of doing - actilurking. That you'd only taken a hard stance on me. This is no longer correct.

And I really have five votes on me. Lovely. Well then. I still think BA is misguided town, Hydrad I need to re-read, XP is town, BA is grrr!town which only leaves IG as possible scum (not mail-mi).

As I understand it, the case is the good ol' fashioned "Volt isn't awesome" (spiced with "he rolled low"). I think it is entirely possible scum is avoiding my wagon right now.

Hydrad again looks guilty here.  I don't quite know what to make of "BA is grr!town". Also not sure why BA is listed twice...

[Hydrad]

Personally I like the lynch someone off the wagon strat and feel chairs is the most likely scum

Why is he the most likely?  I see a lot of these posts from you ("X seems most likely scum right now"), and it seems very arbitrary to me.

My reason that I keep switching is I guess mainly because i'm new and am trusting others reads who I'm pretty sure are town rather then mine as I don't really know how anyone plays here so I'm kinda just following along. Part of this is if I just trusted me and didn't listen to anyone I would probably be on a huge asher tunnel right now as he just felt so scummy at first. But now that people have explained his playstyle i've tried to not put him on the top of my list and hes more null now.

The reason for chairs I guess is because I feel like hes trying to make people forget that hes playing the game so we don't vote for him which seems like something a scum could do.

Although I still have my highest scum read as BA but people generally seem to want to lynch off the wagon so i'm going to let him go for now. Although if he starts getting voted I would probably join in (sorry BA).

Finally for the WW vote on you. I personally don't actually think your that scummy but I didn't know what to do so I kinda just blindly followed fausts plan as I had no better idea at the time.


Finally for why I feel i'm innocent although i'm not that worried of getting lynched but I think your vote could be used in better places. I would say my biggest point is that I started the wagon on Volt when it didn't seem anyone was looking at him. If I was scum and my partner was completely fine I probably wouldn't vote like that. I guess I could of to establish interaction with him but I wouldn't have worded it as strongly to try to get others to notice him. I most likely would of kept trying to get gin lynched instead of trying to make people reconsider why they are lynching him.

But then again I guess if I am scum I have though of this already. Take this for what you will.

[2.71828.....]

play: 4

[2.71828.....]

My reason that I keep switching is I guess mainly because i'm new and am trusting others reads who I'm pretty sure are town rather then mine as I don't really know how anyone plays here so I'm kinda just following along. Part of this is if I just trusted me and didn't listen to anyone I would probably be on a huge asher tunnel right now as he just felt so scummy at first. But now that people have explained his playstyle i've tried to not put him on the top of my list and hes more null now.

The reason for chairs I guess is because I feel like hes trying to make people forget that hes playing the game so we don't vote for him which seems like something a scum could do.

Although I still have my highest scum read as BA but people generally seem to want to lynch off the wagon so i'm going to let him go for now. Although if he starts getting voted I would probably join in (sorry BA).

Finally for the WW vote on you. I personally don't actually think your that scummy but I didn't know what to do so I kinda just blindly followed fausts plan as I had no better idea at the time.


Finally for why I feel i'm innocent although i'm not that worried of getting lynched but I think your vote could be used in better places. I would say my biggest point is that I started the wagon on Volt when it didn't seem anyone was looking at him. If I was scum and my partner was completely fine I probably wouldn't vote like that. I guess I could of to establish interaction with him but I wouldn't have worded it as strongly to try to get others to notice him. I most likely would of kept trying to get gin lynched instead of trying to make people reconsider why they are lynching him.

But then again I guess if I am scum I have though of this already. Take this for what you will.

Trust yourself.  If you think someone is scummy, then go after them.  Don't let other people talk you down just because you are new.  If you aren't right, so be it.  Worst case scenario is that someone is mislynched (which is very likely to happen today).  But a fresh perspective on someone is always a good thing.  Sure Ash might have a certain meta, but if you find his play to be scummy, explain why you see it as scummy and vote!  And then stick to your guns until you get a good enough reason from him to remove that vote.  Now, I am definitely no expert in scum hunting.  For example, I was the losing hammer in Chocolate factory because I let myself be convinced to go after my #2 scum read instead of my #1 scum read. 

so my point:  don't let yourself get bullied.  play your game, not someone else's game.  follow your reads, not someone else's reads. 

[Jimmmmm]

2.71828..... plays a 4
Score: 64

[Witherweaver]

e, I know you talked about playing before, but I don't know if I caught the explanation.. why not just save your rolls today?

[Witherweaver]

Personally I like the lynch someone off the wagon strat and feel chairs is the most likely scum

Why is he the most likely?  I see a lot of these posts from you ("X seems most likely scum right now"), and it seems very arbitrary to me.

My reason that I keep switching is I guess mainly because i'm new and am trusting others reads who I'm pretty sure are town rather then mine as I don't really know how anyone plays here so I'm kinda just following along. Part of this is if I just trusted me and didn't listen to anyone I would probably be on a huge asher tunnel right now as he just felt so scummy at first. But now that people have explained his playstyle i've tried to not put him on the top of my list and hes more null now.

The reason for chairs I guess is because I feel like hes trying to make people forget that hes playing the game so we don't vote for him which seems like something a scum could do.

Although I still have my highest scum read as BA but people generally seem to want to lynch off the wagon so i'm going to let him go for now. Although if he starts getting voted I would probably join in (sorry BA).

Finally for the WW vote on you. I personally don't actually think your that scummy but I didn't know what to do so I kinda just blindly followed fausts plan as I had no better idea at the time.


Finally for why I feel i'm innocent although i'm not that worried of getting lynched but I think your vote could be used in better places. I would say my biggest point is that I started the wagon on Volt when it didn't seem anyone was looking at him. If I was scum and my partner was completely fine I probably wouldn't vote like that. I guess I could of to establish interaction with him but I wouldn't have worded it as strongly to try to get others to notice him. I most likely would of kept trying to get gin lynched instead of trying to make people reconsider why they are lynching him.

But then again I guess if I am scum I have though of this already. Take this for what you will.

For the WW vote on me?  You're talking to me here, right?

" I would say my biggest point is that I started the wagon on Volt when it didn't seem anyone was looking at him. If I was scum and my partner was completely fine I probably wouldn't vote like that. I guess I could of to establish interaction with him but I wouldn't have worded it as strongly to try to get others to notice him."

I wasn't so aware you did this.. but I would disagree with your talk of voting your partner there.. voting your partner when he has no votes is obviously much safer than voting him when he has a wagon on him already.  It's possible you had no idea the wagon would take off (went from L-3 to hammered real fast), so you may not have had time for a plausible backoff.

[Hydrad]

e, I know you talked about playing before, but I don't know if I caught the explanation.. why not just save your rolls today?

my best guess is since hes a thief he probably has a bunch of extra dice so he wanted to store some good dice? but ya i think it could be equally good if he had rolled tomorrow.

[Witherweaver]

I should also point out that

Part of this is if I just trusted me and didn't listen to anyone I would probably be on a huge asher tunnel right now as he just felt so scummy at first. But now that people have explained his playstyle i've tried to not put him on the top of my list and hes more null now.

reminds me a lot of how I treated Ashersky my first scum game when I was his partner.  Kept on saying he seemed super scummy but moved my vote around to others too.

[Hydrad]

I should also point out that

Part of this is if I just trusted me and didn't listen to anyone I would probably be on a huge asher tunnel right now as he just felt so scummy at first. But now that people have explained his playstyle i've tried to not put him on the top of my list and hes more null now.

reminds me a lot of how I treated Ashersky my first scum game when I was his partner.  Kept on saying he seemed super scummy but moved my vote around to others too.

but do you feel like asher is scum at all in this game?

[Witherweaver]

I should also point out that

Part of this is if I just trusted me and didn't listen to anyone I would probably be on a huge asher tunnel right now as he just felt so scummy at first. But now that people have explained his playstyle i've tried to not put him on the top of my list and hes more null now.

reminds me a lot of how I treated Ashersky my first scum game when I was his partner.  Kept on saying he seemed super scummy but moved my vote around to others too.

but do you feel like asher is scum at all in this game?

If you flip scum I certainly will!

[Hydrad]

I should also point out that

Part of this is if I just trusted me and didn't listen to anyone I would probably be on a huge asher tunnel right now as he just felt so scummy at first. But now that people have explained his playstyle i've tried to not put him on the top of my list and hes more null now.

reminds me a lot of how I treated Ashersky my first scum game when I was his partner.  Kept on saying he seemed super scummy but moved my vote around to others too.

but do you feel like asher is scum at all in this game?

If you flip scum I certainly will!

fair point

[Hydrad]

Although if you want me to claim I'm willing. I don't have a scum power like halving dice or controlling the monster. And I don't feel like its something that will make scum want to kill me. The biggest problem is I can't 100% prove it like others but I can get it to maybe 80-90% proof if you want.

[2.71828.....]

e, I know you talked about playing before, but I don't know if I caught the explanation.. why not just save your rolls today?

my best guess is since hes a thief he probably has a bunch of extra dice so he wanted to store some good dice? but ya i think it could be equally good if he had rolled tomorrow.

yeah I wanted to store dice, and no it would not have been equally as good if I had just rolled tomorrow.  This way gives me an additional roll that I would not otherwise have had if I need it.  We don't yet know what monster we will face.  I stored a die that will hopefully prove useful against that monster.  If the die I stored is not useful, then I can always roll tomorrow.  And I don't have "a bunch of extra dice" (even though I will replenish my stock tonight a little) so I only rolled 2 dice, which is the minimum that I am able to roll and still store a die.

And I also want to be ready:

There may also be other uses for your stored dice.

[Hydrad]

Oh interesting i never even noticed that quote by jimmm. I wonder if its only useful to some abilities or if we could all benifit from storing dice.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, I see

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. Super busy day with the 4th and all. I'll be back tomorrow.

[XerxesPraelor]

Storing dice is good, especially large values. If you have >20. points of stored dice, you will be able to use them.

[faust]

Volt's very first post is to vote Hydrad in RVS:

Hello all! I highly doubt the stones don't matter simply based on the way they're written so far. I'll have to double check, but even with the "ignore the flavor" post there's just no way.

Not quite sure how the small changes from the first game will affect anything, if at all.

vote: Hydrad for never having played with me before.

makes scum Hydrad slightly more likely, I think, but I don't have a lot of conviction in that.  The idea would be that scum are likely to place a vote on their partner early to establish some interaction, but not when anything is in serious risk of happening.

Voltaire always votes for players he hasn't played with before, so that's a null tell, I'd say. But I appreciate that you take the time to reread Voltaire.

[faust]

Here's another question:

If I was talking about something called "The Grim ______", would you know what fills the gap? (Don't say what it is, just say "yes" or "no")

[faust]

e: Do you agree to carry out my plan?

no

Explain yourself!

Can you explain again why it would be such a great idea?  You say it will establish PPS as an IC?  Well, I do not think so.  I mean, whatever report I come back with will need to be solidified at some point.  i.e. either PPS or myself need to flip scum/town.  Now, why would scum kill us before that point?  No, the best route would be to kill the first of us with a lynch.  You are already biased into thinking that I am scum, and that sets me up as an easy mislynch.  I get mislynched, and then scum can kill the now-IC PPS that night.  Or vice-versa.

Basically, unless you are willing to fully believe any report that I come back with, we might as well not do the plan.  And if you will already fully believe whatever report I come back with, then you are basically saying that you already think that I am town.

The fact that you don't even consider that you could catch PPS in a lie makes me much more confident in my vote.

[faust]

I call e's above quote a scumslip if there ever was one.

[faust]

Also, e, your above post is nonsensical. I am talking about using you as a 1-shot Cop, and you say "but Cops are useless"! Do you seriously think that a Cop is weaker than your dice-stealing power?

[faust]

You have to consider the context in which the player was on-wagon, not just say, "They're on wagon". For some people that means that they deserve little or no towncred for it.

faust: are you aware of all the things that could go terribly wrong with your plan?

Apparently not. What do you mean?

I mean that there are a lot of things that can go terribly wrong with your plan, as I and others have outlined I believe. Plus, e doesn't seem like he is going to do it (and I don't blame him for that either).

It would be helpful if you could name what could go wrong instead of repeating "something that has been said before".

[Hydrad]

Here's another question:

If I was talking about something called "The Grim ______", would you know what fills the gap? (Don't say what it is, just say "yes" or "no")

no

[Hydrad]

Here's another question:

If I was talking about something called "The Grim ______", would you know what fills the gap? (Don't say what it is, just say "yes" or "no")

no

unless I can guess as there is a word that seems to make sense there. but i'm assuming thats not what you mean

[XerxesPraelor]

Here's another question:

If I was talking about something called "The Grim ______", would you know what fills the gap? (Don't say what it is, just say "yes" or "no")

If this wasn't in the context of a Mafia game, definitely yes, but I have no idea how it relates to this game.

[ashersky]

This is getting ridiculous, by the way.

Either play the game, or game the setup.  Choose.  Go all in or leave it alone.

[faust]

This is getting ridiculous, by the way.

Either play the game, or game the setup.  Choose.  Go all in or leave it alone.

Do you also have substantial thoughts to share?

[ashersky]

Yeah, if people refuse to go one way or the other, they are scummy.

[2.71828.....]

I call e's above quote a scumslip if there ever was one.

vote: faust

scumslips don't exist.  But, as I actually think faust is town right now, unvote

[2.71828.....]

Also, e, your above post is nonsensical. I am talking about using you as a 1-shot Cop, and you say "but Cops are useless"! Do you seriously think that a Cop is weaker than your dice-stealing power?

Cops?  I stay away from cops [as a rule] being the town thief.  Cops just don't understand people like me.

In all seriousness though, claiming cop and claiming thief are two totally different things, and you trying to equate them is kind of ridiculous.  Sure, alternative powers can be used in a cop-like manner, but it is just not the same. 

We want as many people to roll when fighting against monsters.  What you propose guarantees that one of our number cannot roll.  You yourself said D1 that we need to discourage low rolls, and that was a major part of your longstanding case against ichi.  Well, what you propose is even worse than encouraging a low roll, you are encouraging a non-roll.  It is totally possible that PPS might gain dice overnight.  I do not want to tamper with that.

[2.71828.....]

Here's another question:

If I was talking about something called "The Grim ______", would you know what fills the gap? (Don't say what it is, just say "yes" or "no")

The Grim Reaper.  [thats a "no"]

[2.71828.....]

This is getting ridiculous, by the way.

Either play the game, or game the setup.  Choose.  Go all in or leave it alone.

I will......play the game.

vote: BA

obv!scum

[2.71828.....]

Vote Count 2.thief

Beyond Awesome (2): chairs, e
chairs (2): mail-mi, Beyond Awesome
pingpongsam (2): Ichimaru Gin, liopoil
2.71828..... (1): faust
liopoil (1): ashersky
hydrad (1): XP

not voting (3): Witherweaver, pingpongsam, hydrad

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 9 at 11pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 11 at 11pm forum time.

This is awful.  We need some wagons or something.  Something we can analyze.  I know I have mostly town reads, and that is probably because we lynched scum D1.  So we have 2 scum in 12 players.  So most people really are town.

[2.71828.....]

Vote Count 2.thief

Beyond Awesome (2): chairs, e
chairs (2): mail-mi, Beyond Awesome
pingpongsam (2): Ichimaru Gin, liopoil
2.71828..... (1): faust
liopoil (1): ashersky
hydrad (1): XP

not voting (3): Witherweaver, pingpongsam, hydrad

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 9 at 11pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 11 at 11pm forum time.

This is awful.  We need some wagons or something.  Something we can analyze.  I know I have mostly town reads, and that is probably because we lynched scum D1.  So we have 2 scum in 12 players.  So most people really are town.

I meant to end the bold there

[Beyond Awesome]

Here's another question:

If I was talking about something called "The Grim ______", would you know what fills the gap? (Don't say what it is, just say "yes" or "no")

The answer is no.

[XerxesPraelor]

Also, e, your above post is nonsensical. I am talking about using you as a 1-shot Cop, and you say "but Cops are useless"! Do you seriously think that a Cop is weaker than your dice-stealing power?

Cops?  I stay away from cops [as a rule] being the town thief.  Cops just don't understand people like me.

In all seriousness though, claiming cop and claiming thief are two totally different things, and you trying to equate them is kind of ridiculous.  Sure, alternative powers can be used in a cop-like manner, but it is just not the same. 

We want as many people to roll when fighting against monsters.  What you propose guarantees that one of our number cannot roll.  You yourself said D1 that we need to discourage low rolls, and that was a major part of your longstanding case against ichi.  Well, what you propose is even worse than encouraging a low roll, you are encouraging a non-roll.  It is totally possible that PPS might gain dice overnight.  I do not want to tamper with that.

Yeah; vote: faust

Your plan is definitely not as good as a cop, because cops are hidden, and their target also isn't known to scum.

Also, I'm now in favor of a mass claim.

[pingpongsam]

No on the grim blank deal.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 2.6

Beyond Awesome (2): chairs, 2.71828.....
chairs (2): mail-mi, Beyond Awesome,
pingpongsam (2): Ichimaru Gin, liopoil
2.71828..... (2): Beyond Awesome, faust
liopoil (1): ashersky
faust (1): XerxesPraelor

not voting (3): Witherweaver, pingpongsam, Hydrad

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 9 at 11pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 11 at 11pm forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 64

[2.71828.....]

Vote Count 2.6

Beyond Awesome (2): chairs, 2.71828.....
chairs (2): mail-mi, Beyond Awesome,
pingpongsam (2): Ichimaru Gin, liopoil
2.71828..... (2): Beyond Awesome, faust
liopoil (1): ashersky
faust (1): XerxesPraelor

not voting (3): Witherweaver, pingpongsam, Hydrad

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 9 at 11pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 11 at 11pm forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 64

you have BA voting twice here

[Beyond Awesome]

Vote Count 2.6

Beyond Awesome (2): chairs, 2.71828.....
chairs (2): mail-mi, Beyond Awesome,
pingpongsam (2): Ichimaru Gin, liopoil
2.71828..... (2): Beyond Awesome, faust
liopoil (1): ashersky
faust (1): XerxesPraelor

not voting (3): Witherweaver, pingpongsam, Hydrad

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 9 at 11pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 11 at 11pm forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 64

You have my name down twice. My most recent vote is on chairs.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Here's another question:

If I was talking about something called "The Grim ______", would you know what fills the gap? (Don't say what it is, just say "yes" or "no")

Yes. I would. But it appears others have already said the Grim Reaper.

[liopoil]

Yeah; vote: faust

Wait, I thought you had a good reason to think faust was town because of D1?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Here's another question:

If I was talking about something called "The Grim ______", would you know what fills the gap? (Don't say what it is, just say "yes" or "no")

Yes. I would. But it appears others have already said the Grim Reaper.

Also. I am incredibly confused as to the purpose of this question. I'll have to do a quick reread I guess.

[liopoil]

does this question have anything to do with the game? Somehow I doubt it does.

[XerxesPraelor]

Yeah; vote: faust

Wait, I thought you had a good reason to think faust was town because of D1?

No theory related reason, just a town read for telling the truth and his reactions to what I did.

[Witherweaver]

Yeah; vote: faust

Wait, I thought you had a good reason to think faust was town because of D1?

No theory related reason, just a town read for telling the truth and his reactions to what I did.

Also  we all thought scum stole his dice, which is not true if we believe Ichi.

[2.71828.....]

Faust has asked a lot of questions and made a lot of demands and not given many answers

Sorry. I know see that 6 wasn't a very good roll. I rolled only a couple dice, but 6 was the highest I had, and I had to play one.
So faust's assumption seems to not be taking a lot of things into account.

Also, how many dice did you roll exactly?

I'm back to vote: Ichimaru for now. The one thing we need to do is discourage bad dice rolls. And I think his reaction to being accused is scummy.

Alright, so this is what we do: We mass claim. The order will be this:

yuma
Witherweaver
Beyond Awesome
chairs
liopoil
Hydrad
Ichimaru Gin
ashersky
pingpongsam
faust
XerxesPraelor
mail-mi

We claim: Role, who we targeted, what happened to us. Does anyone have a problem with this?

In your next post, everyone please state: Did you target me on N0? Did you target me on N1 (other than with the Doc thingy)?

Xerxes, do you have any information about a role called "The Advisor"?

e, can you tell us how your role works, exactly?

Here's a plan:

e targets pingpongsam tonight. If he doesn't get any dice, we can confirm PPS is out of dice. If PPS is really out of dice, he is basically confirmed town, because why would scum reduce their own dice? If e does get dice, PPS is lying scum.

In the meantime, we lynch someone else. I propose WW.

Vote: Witherweaver

Here's another question:

If I was talking about something called "The Grim ______", would you know what fills the gap? (Don't say what it is, just say "yes" or "no")

Everything from asking people how many dice they roll to giving people a specific order to claim their role (even though we were far from any sort of consensus as far as claiming goes at that point. 

So faust, before we continue answering your questions, why don't you give us some explanations and answers yourself.

Why did you put yourself so low on the list when it comes to claiming?

What do you know about a role called "The Advisor"?

Why did you want to know if people targeted you N0 or N1?

[2.71828.....]

And I do like a vote: faust until we get some answers from him

[Ichimaru Gin]

Yeah; vote: faust

Wait, I thought you had a good reason to think faust was town because of D1?

No theory related reason, just a town read for telling the truth and his reactions to what I did.

Also  we all thought scum stole his dice, which is not true if we believe Ichi.

How dare you question the IC?

JK.

On a more serious note, I have been suspicious of faust since D1, but no one really seemed interested at all in a case on him. Glad to see those opinions are changing.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Guess I'll make this point for the third time. But please someone take a look at the way faust backed off of me D1. After riding me the whole day and feeling apparently very confident about his read on me, he just dropped it and switched to Voltaire after I made a few joking posts. I feel very confident that he didn't really find my more recent posts townie, but needed to switch to his partner to look good.

[Ichimaru Gin]

That fact coupled with how everyone has ignored it two different times is enough for me to vote: faust
I see the scum play in this game to be more like "hope it goes away" if not then bus for towncred.

[Witherweaver]

I'm not sure that's a scummy trait for Faust, though.  I think he tends to ride someone a bit until he gets something to aid his decision making as town or scum.

I'm not entirely sure of this statement as I've mostly just seen him as scum. Maybe someone with a better sense of his meta can comment.  It could be scum Faust deciding no one is going to follow him, or  it could be town!Faust changing his mind.

I wonder, though, why didn't Ash jump on you for rolling low?  Seems like something he would be likely to do

[Beyond Awesome]

Yeah; vote: faust

Wait, I thought you had a good reason to think faust was town because of D1?

No theory related reason, just a town read for telling the truth and his reactions to what I did.

Also  we all thought scum stole his dice, which is not true if we believe Ichi.

How dare you question the IC?

JK.

On a more serious note, I have been suspicious of faust since D1, but no one really seemed interested at all in a case on him. Glad to see those opinions are changing.

I actually did find faust scummy but never said anything because of XP. I thought XP was able to prove faust was town. Guess not. Oh, and I love the points e makes. I have been wondering the same thing. Why is faust fishing for so much information?

[Witherweaver]

Actually Ichi can you present this case with relevant quotes?

[EFHW]

Vote Count 2.6.1

Beyond Awesome (2): chairs, 2.71828.....
chairs (2): mail-mi, Beyond Awesome
pingpongsam (2): Ichimaru Gin, liopoil
2.71828..... (1): faust
liopoil (1): ashersky
faust (1): XerxesPraelor

not voting (3): Witherweaver, pingpongsam, Hydrad

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 9 at 11pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 11 at 11pm forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 64

[EFHW]

Vote Count 2.6.2

Sigh...

Beyond Awesome (1): chairs
chairs (2): mail-mi, Beyond Awesome
pingpongsam (1):  liopoil
2.71828..... (1): faust
liopoil (1): ashersky
faust (3): XerxesPraelor, 2.71828....., Ichimaru Gin

not voting (3): Witherweaver, pingpongsam, Hydrad

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 9 at 11pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 11 at 11pm forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 64

[liopoil]

Why did you want to know if people targeted you N0 or N1?[/b]

I know why he wanted to know who targeted him N1 (after all, it was I who targeted him), and would rather he not answer this.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Actually Ichi can you present this case with relevant quotes?

Early on, faust fights quite a bit with Ashersky. It feels a bit contrived.

Sorry. I know see that 6 wasn't a very good roll. I rolled only a couple dice, but 6 was the highest I had, and I had to play one.
So faust's assumption seems to not be taking a lot of things into account.

Also, how many dice did you roll exactly?

I'm back to vote: Ichimaru for now. The one thing we need to do is discourage bad dice rolls. And I think his reaction to being accused is scummy.

He pressures to to tell him how many dice I rolled, voting to add extra weight. He completely ignores my response and just says that he's feeling better about his vote on me.

#152 Asks me what I am afraid of, as if there are no PR's that can mess with dice or rolls. This feels kind of taunting. He also says it will help determine exactly how likely it is I am telling the truth. The logic here really fails because of course scum!me would just lie about how many dice I rolled.

#204 I kind of forgot just how much he twisted words in order to make me look scummy. Again, there is a huge difference between a statistic and an individual event. faust just seems like low roll = 100% scum here. Also, I expect this as exactly the sort of tactic that scum would take because it makes people focus on numbers rather than reads and interactions.

#392 He pressures mail-mi to roll. Exactly as would be expected by scum trying to weaken a town PR. He goes for more threats there too, basically saying people will die if they don't listen to him.

#488 So much WIFOM in this post. Basically shows how his mind is made up on me for evidence that is very thin and 100% WIFOM. Like coincidences don't happen or he never factors them into his reads. In light of how dice rolling works, this is pretty ludicrous.

Link to my first reread of faust http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11174.msg393288#msg393288

#588 Damning evidence in my mind. faust thinks setting me up as a mislynch is still worth a shot and noticeably hedges on Voltaire in a very scum-partnerish way.

#657 Even better. This is the post I keep referencing where faust just drops my case and flips to Voltaire.The last posts from me just before faust posts this are as follows: A joke about lio's interaction with EFHW, interpreting WW's statement about people not making sense as directed to me, replying to PPS's irritation at me asking a clarifying question, posting some pretty obvious stuff about mail-mi's preferences to roll or not, me having a townread on WW.

This (technically #658 when he corrects a bolding mistake) was faust's last post of D1 before Ash hammered Voltaire.

Ok. Thinking about reading D2. I'll post this for now.

Also, I know my first reread of faust that I link to is flawed in some ways, but it still provides info on faust.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also. Just look at the wording he chooses to use "discourage bad dice rolls"

We need to discourage people from having bad luck!!!

It would make more sense as discourage playing low dice. Seriously though, this gives incite into an obvious scum mentality.

[liopoil]

I don't buy it. Ichi, you're having a bit of tunnel vision and finding everything he does scummy. Faust has played very pro-town this game. Do I need to pull quotes, or are you guys (XerxesPraelor, 2.71828....., and Ichimaru Gin) going to see the light and snap out of it?

Also, why aren't more people voting for pps?

[XerxesPraelor]

BTW, what Faust knows about the advisor comes from that he was visited, and part of the message he received was that the advisor was confirmed to be town-aligned. In fact, all these questions seem like trying to discover roles, so I'd be fine with vote: e except that I already did that.

I think Faust has in fact acted quite pro-town, so I'm somewhat hesitant about lynching him. But he does seem scummy and his lynch will give us lots of information.

PPE: 1

[Ichimaru Gin]

I don't buy it. Ichi, you're having a bit of tunnel vision and finding everything he does scummy. Faust has played very pro-town this game. Do I need to pull quotes, or are you guys (XerxesPraelor, 2.71828....., and Ichimaru Gin) going to see the light and snap out of it?

Also, why aren't more people voting for pps?

What a joke. I haven't said or done much to find faust scummy in quite a while (pretty much this whole day).

Why don't you look at what I actually said and tell me what you think about him tunneling me all day for D1. His first post was literally to vote for me and he kept it up for the entire day.

Sure, go ahead and pull quotes. I'm sure faust has done some townie things, but what, there is not one thing in my post that you think is legitimate or could offer an opinion on? It's not like I make the best cases, but I have a problem with you choosing to ignore every single point as just "you have tunnel vision" which is an obviously untrue statement.

PPE: XP. faust has acted pro-town but he's also scummy?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Where are e and WW? I'm sure they'll at least have some useful things to say.

[Witherweaver]

"His flip will give us a lot of information" sounded like "he's a good mislynch" here

[liopoil]

"His flip will give us a lot of information" sounded like "he's a good mislynch" here

And indeed, he would surely be a great mislynch for scum.

Ichi: I'm in the process of writing up a post, don't think I ignored you.

[Ichimaru Gin]

"His flip will give us a lot of information" sounded like "he's a good mislynch" here

And indeed, he would surely be a great mislynch for scum.

Ichi: I'm in the process of writing up a post, don't think I ignored you.

K.

XP's post seems very contradictory to me.

[Witherweaver]

I have to check out the links where he switches from you to Volt, but I really don't feel strongly about your case. His argument for lynching low rollers was reasonable: even if it was just town getting bad luck, the policy discourages scum from playing low rolls.

  Also, asking all these questions seems like more work than it's worth for scum.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I have to check out the links where he switches from you to Volt, but I really don't feel strongly about your case. His argument for lynching low rollers was reasonable: even if it was just town getting bad luck, the policy discourages scum from playing low rolls.

  Also, asking all these questions seems like more work than it's worth for scum.

Hmm. You asked me to make a case. I did my best. Understandable if you don't find it that compelling.

I find this interaction scummy however. I also feel you are overly simplifying faust's tack on low-rollers.

[Witherweaver]

Also Ichi, you were a top scum read of mine day 1 so I don't really find Faust going after you too suspicious.

 I'm still not over newbie scum vibe from BA, by the way.  Reminds me of DD's first scum game.

[Witherweaver]

I know. I asked you to make it because I didn't see what you were talking about on my reread, so I wanted yo get specific links.  Still need to go back and read the posts you highlighted, that was just my first impression from reading your post.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also Ichi, you were a top scum read of mine day 1 so I don't really find Faust going after you too suspicious.

 I'm still not over newbie scum vibe from BA, by the way.  Reminds me of DD's first scum game.

Look. Though faust attacking me, who is confirmed town in some people's eyes now, is a component of the case on him, it is by no means the only thing.

Furthermore, now that I have semi-IC status, hopefully it is a little more apparent that faust's case on me was wrong.

After tunneling me the entire day, faust just ups and drops that case on me with one sentence. What convinced him to switch to Volt and drop the case he'd been working the entire day? When faust shows up, I want a better answer to that question.

PPE: 1

[Witherweaver]

yuma looks like town, so that's good.

Ichi's most recent posts are also on the townier side.

How about vote: Voltaire? He just feels like scum. Will look at this in more detail after the weekend.

Oh yeah, that's L-2.

Okay.. this is where Faust switches to you.  I analyzed this post before.. I had trouble seeing it as coming from Volt's partner.. This is what I said about it before:

yuma looks like town, so that's good.

Ichi's most recent posts are also on the townier side.

How about vote: Voltaire? He just feels like scum. Will look at this in more detail after the weekend.

Oh yeah, that's L-2.

Faust here puts Volt at L-2.  Would he do this to his partner?  I'm pretty sure Faust is not a gambit-lynch-my-own-partner-for-town-points scum player, unless he's pretty certain his partner is caught (e.g., Xerxes in Innovation).  It didn't seem like Volt was caught at this point, at least from my point of view the lynch was far from being decided and there were quite a few candidates.  So, in this line of thinking, a scum Faust would only do this if he thought Volt was going to get out of this.

I find Faust less likely scum for this.  The only caveat would be "will look at this in more detail after the weekend"... setting up an out to say he changed his mind and unvote.. but very dangerous to do if Volt does get lynched and flips scum.  To me this vote looks scummy only in the case that Volt is town.

[Witherweaver]

If Volt flipped town, then Faust dropping you and jumping to Volt looks very scummy.  But, Volt was scum, and you're arguing Faust was his partner.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I think that's a good point. I also think Ash's quickhammer was a surprise to everyone.

PPE: 1

[Witherweaver]

I think that's a good point. I also think Ash's quickhammer was a surprise to everyone.

PPE: 1

But what is scum Faust's motivation to bus his partner here?  Out of all the L-2, L-1, hammer votes, Faust's seems the most town.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I think that's a good point. I also think Ash's quickhammer was a surprise to everyone.

PPE: 1

But what is scum Faust's motivation to bus his partner here?  Out of all the L-2, L-1, hammer votes, Faust's seems the most town.

I don't know faust's meta that well. I don't feel that he has played very pro-town this game, but you remind me of information that made me think he was townier earlier today.

[liopoil]

witherweaver, you are making like, all the same points that I am making in the post I am slowly writing! I have some stuff you haven't said yet, but posting my agreement with everything you are saying right now.

[Witherweaver]

Also, your case mentions Faust as Volt's partner, but doesn't really do anything in the way of analyzing Faust in the light of Volt being scum.  There was one point about a hedgey stance Faust had on Volt, which is valid, but otherwise it's more about how Faust acted towards you.  That's more of a case I'd expect to see if we lynched town Day 1 and are looking for the most scummiest person. 

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also, your case mentions Faust as Volt's partner, but doesn't really do anything in the way of analyzing Faust in the light of Volt being scum.  There was one point about a hedgey stance Faust had on Volt, which is valid, but otherwise it's more about how Faust acted towards you.  That's more of a case I'd expect to see if we lynched town Day 1 and are looking for the most scummiest person.

I am still not sold that faust is town. However, I am ok with lynching elsewhere today. And yes, his tunneling of me D1 does perhaps cloud my vision a bit; however, Voltaire tried to mislynch me as well, and I called that one correctly. Still, your points about faust and him joining the Volt wagon when he did are fair and do make him look townier.

[liopoil]

I don't buy it. Ichi, you're having a bit of tunnel vision and finding everything he does scummy. Faust has played very pro-town this game. Do I need to pull quotes, or are you guys (XerxesPraelor, 2.71828....., and Ichimaru Gin) going to see the light and snap out of it?

Also, why aren't more people voting for pps?

What a joke. I haven't said or done much to find faust scummy in quite a while (pretty much this whole day).

Why don't you look at what I actually said and tell me what you think about him tunneling me all day for D1. His first post was literally to vote for me and he kept it up for the entire day.

Sure, go ahead and pull quotes. I'm sure faust has done some townie things, but what, there is not one thing in my post that you think is legitimate or could offer an opinion on? It's not like I make the best cases, but I have a problem with you choosing to ignore every single point as just "you have tunnel vision" which is an obviously untrue statement.

okay, I guess what I meant by tunnel vision isn't exactly what tunnel vision means. I meant that you seem to be contorting everything faust does into a scum narrative, ignoring the possible town narrative. I read what you said, and I guess now I'll respond to it since my last post obviously didn't work.

Early on, faust fights quite a bit with Ashersky. It feels a bit contrived.

Sorry. I know see that 6 wasn't a very good roll. I rolled only a couple dice, but 6 was the highest I had, and I had to play one.
So faust's assumption seems to not be taking a lot of things into account.

Also, how many dice did you roll exactly?

I'm back to vote: Ichimaru for now. The one thing we need to do is discourage bad dice rolls. And I think his reaction to being accused is scummy.

He pressures to to tell him how many dice I rolled, voting to add extra weight. He completely ignores my response and just says that he's feeling better about his vote on me.

#152 Asks me what I am afraid of, as if there are no PR's that can mess with dice or rolls. This feels kind of taunting. He also says it will help determine exactly how likely it is I am telling the truth. The logic here really fails because of course scum!me would just lie about how many dice I rolled.

#204 I kind of forgot just how much he twisted words in order to make me look scummy. Again, there is a huge difference between a statistic and an individual event. faust just seems like low roll = 100% scum here. Also, I expect this as exactly the sort of tactic that scum would take because it makes people focus on numbers rather than reads and interactions.

#392 He pressures mail-mi to roll. Exactly as would be expected by scum trying to weaken a town PR. He goes for more threats there too, basically saying people will die if they don't listen to him.

#488 So much WIFOM in this post. Basically shows how his mind is made up on me for evidence that is very thin and 100% WIFOM. Like coincidences don't happen or he never factors them into his reads. In light of how dice rolling works, this is pretty ludicrous.

Link to my first reread of faust http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11174.msg393288#msg393288

#588 Damning evidence in my mind. faust thinks setting me up as a mislynch is still worth a shot and noticeably hedges on Voltaire in a very scum-partnerish way.

#657 Even better. This is the post I keep referencing where faust just drops my case and flips to Voltaire.The last posts from me just before faust posts this are as follows: A joke about lio's interaction with EFHW, interpreting WW's statement about people not making sense as directed to me, replying to PPS's irritation at me asking a clarifying question, posting some pretty obvious stuff about mail-mi's preferences to roll or not, me having a townread on WW.

This (technically #658 when he corrects a bolding mistake) was faust's last post of D1 before Ash hammered Voltaire.

Ok. Thinking about reading D2. I'll post this for now.

Also, I know my first reread of faust that I link to is flawed in some ways, but it still provides info on faust.

It's very easy to get in a fight with ashersky, as scum or town. Not contrived.

He makes a good point about rolling low. It is scummy. Volt was scum and played low. You didn't roll quite as low, but early D1, that's better evidence than anything else. Scum are absolutely more likely to play low numbers, and so it is indeed a good idea to discourage low rolling, so they don't do it.

Yeah, I don't really agree with some of his prying questions, but they aren't scummy. I've never seen scum actually rolefish. faust is genuinely trying to figure stuff out.

He doesn't twist what you said very much, what you said does sort of imply what he took it to mean.

I don't see the WIFOM in that post (488). There is never anything that is 100% WIFOM. You can't use WIFOM to turn something that would be a scum or town read into a null read. WIFOM weakens those reads. The reason it doesn't negate them entirely is because scum still has that lingering motive to do things like playing low. Scum can play high for towncred, but they still would rather play low more often, otherwise the towncred for playing high goes away.

You don't say anything about what you think about the posts that he makes. Ignoring your claim is fine because your claim of how many dice you rolled doesn't mean anything.

It seems faust can win with you. He suspects you, it's scummy. He backs off, it's scummy.

post 588 isn't written by faust and has nothing to do with faust, so I don't know what you are talking about.

Changing to voltaire seems townie to me, because I think there was still a good chance that he wouldn't be lynched. ww talked about this.

In addition, I find his clearing (essentially) of XP to very townie. He wouldn't do that as scum. Today he has been very helpful in finding more people likely to be town. Plus, it seems he has some sort of information/role for sure which is townie.

faust is easily my top townread besides myself.

[Witherweaver]

Also, your case mentions Faust as Volt's partner, but doesn't really do anything in the way of analyzing Faust in the light of Volt being scum.  There was one point about a hedgey stance Faust had on Volt, which is valid, but otherwise it's more about how Faust acted towards you.  That's more of a case I'd expect to see if we lynched town Day 1 and are looking for the most scummiest person.

I am still not sold that faust is town. However, I am ok with lynching elsewhere today. And yes, his tunneling of me D1 does perhaps cloud my vision a bit; however, Voltaire tried to mislynch me as well, and I called that one correctly. Still, your points about faust and him joining the Volt wagon when he did are fair and do make him look townier.

Well also consider, how often do you team up with your scum partner and go after the same player pretty hard?

[liopoil]

It seems that people aren't voting for PPS because he was on-wagon. Well, here's why that doesn't matter:

1) He's pps. Pps does bold things, especially as scum, and would totally totally totally bus his falling scumbuddy down.
2) Voltaire was already at L-2 with everybody having some amount of suspicion of him. He was quite likely to be lynched. At the same time, pps's vote didn't finalize it, so there was still a chance for voltaire to pull out some fakeclaim or something to save himself.

Only two points! These are good points. "On-wagon" means nothing if you don't look at the context, as I've been saying repeatedly. Have you heard me yet? Anyway, here is your context, and in this case the context says "Him being on-wagon means nothing!"

[Ichimaru Gin]

I don't buy it. Ichi, you're having a bit of tunnel vision and finding everything he does scummy. Faust has played very pro-town this game. Do I need to pull quotes, or are you guys (XerxesPraelor, 2.71828....., and Ichimaru Gin) going to see the light and snap out of it?

Also, why aren't more people voting for pps?

What a joke. I haven't said or done much to find faust scummy in quite a while (pretty much this whole day).

Why don't you look at what I actually said and tell me what you think about him tunneling me all day for D1. His first post was literally to vote for me and he kept it up for the entire day.

Sure, go ahead and pull quotes. I'm sure faust has done some townie things, but what, there is not one thing in my post that you think is legitimate or could offer an opinion on? It's not like I make the best cases, but I have a problem with you choosing to ignore every single point as just "you have tunnel vision" which is an obviously untrue statement.

okay, I guess what I meant by tunnel vision isn't exactly what tunnel vision means. I meant that you seem to be contorting everything faust does into a scum narrative, ignoring the possible town narrative. I read what you said, and I guess now I'll respond to it since my last post obviously didn't work.

Early on, faust fights quite a bit with Ashersky. It feels a bit contrived.

Sorry. I know see that 6 wasn't a very good roll. I rolled only a couple dice, but 6 was the highest I had, and I had to play one.
So faust's assumption seems to not be taking a lot of things into account.

Also, how many dice did you roll exactly?

I'm back to vote: Ichimaru for now. The one thing we need to do is discourage bad dice rolls. And I think his reaction to being accused is scummy.

He pressures to to tell him how many dice I rolled, voting to add extra weight. He completely ignores my response and just says that he's feeling better about his vote on me.

#152 Asks me what I am afraid of, as if there are no PR's that can mess with dice or rolls. This feels kind of taunting. He also says it will help determine exactly how likely it is I am telling the truth. The logic here really fails because of course scum!me would just lie about how many dice I rolled.

#204 I kind of forgot just how much he twisted words in order to make me look scummy. Again, there is a huge difference between a statistic and an individual event. faust just seems like low roll = 100% scum here. Also, I expect this as exactly the sort of tactic that scum would take because it makes people focus on numbers rather than reads and interactions.

#392 He pressures mail-mi to roll. Exactly as would be expected by scum trying to weaken a town PR. He goes for more threats there too, basically saying people will die if they don't listen to him.

#488 So much WIFOM in this post. Basically shows how his mind is made up on me for evidence that is very thin and 100% WIFOM. Like coincidences don't happen or he never factors them into his reads. In light of how dice rolling works, this is pretty ludicrous.

Link to my first reread of faust http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11174.msg393288#msg393288

#588 Damning evidence in my mind. faust thinks setting me up as a mislynch is still worth a shot and noticeably hedges on Voltaire in a very scum-partnerish way.

#657 Even better. This is the post I keep referencing where faust just drops my case and flips to Voltaire.The last posts from me just before faust posts this are as follows: A joke about lio's interaction with EFHW, interpreting WW's statement about people not making sense as directed to me, replying to PPS's irritation at me asking a clarifying question, posting some pretty obvious stuff about mail-mi's preferences to roll or not, me having a townread on WW.

This (technically #658 when he corrects a bolding mistake) was faust's last post of D1 before Ash hammered Voltaire.

Ok. Thinking about reading D2. I'll post this for now.

Also, I know my first reread of faust that I link to is flawed in some ways, but it still provides info on faust.

It's very easy to get in a fight with ashersky, as scum or town. Not contrived.

He makes a good point about rolling low. It is scummy. Volt was scum and played low. You didn't roll quite as low, but early D1, that's better evidence than anything else. Scum are absolutely more likely to play low numbers, and so it is indeed a good idea to discourage low rolling, so they don't do it.

Yeah, I don't really agree with some of his prying questions, but they aren't scummy. I've never seen scum actually rolefish. faust is genuinely trying to figure stuff out.

He doesn't twist what you said very much, what you said does sort of imply what he took it to mean.

I don't see the WIFOM in that post (488). There is never anything that is 100% WIFOM. You can't use WIFOM to turn something that would be a scum or town read into a null read. WIFOM weakens those reads. The reason it doesn't negate them entirely is because scum still has that lingering motive to do things like playing low. Scum can play high for towncred, but they still would rather play low more often, otherwise the towncred for playing high goes away.

You don't say anything about what you think about the posts that he makes. Ignoring your claim is fine because your claim of how many dice you rolled doesn't mean anything.

It seems faust can win with you. He suspects you, it's scummy. He backs off, it's scummy.

post 588 isn't written by faust and has nothing to do with faust, so I don't know what you are talking about.

Changing to voltaire seems townie to me, because I think there was still a good chance that he wouldn't be lynched. ww talked about this.

In addition, I find his clearing (essentially) of XP to very townie. He wouldn't do that as scum. Today he has been very helpful in finding more people likely to be town. Plus, it seems he has some sort of information/role for sure which is townie.

faust is easily my top townread besides myself.

What the hell? Then why would he ask that and act like it would be so helpful?

Please answer that. At this point, I am more concerned with hearing from faust himself. Sure, you and WW can defend him all you want, but I'm more concerned about him answering my questions.

I assume you meant to say "faust can't win with me". Please, it's nowhere near as simple as behavior x and behavior y being opposites and me both finding them scummy. What it is is I see no reason why he backed off of me and obviously other's don't as well. WW still had a scumread on me through D1--as did quite a few other people. You admit that faust makes some good points against me, why does he suddenly drop it? Yes, tunneling someone all day and then dropping the case for no reason is scummy. The way you twist it though, you make it seem like the events aren't connected.

Screw it. I don't think this conversation is really going places right now. I am not changing my read on faust until I hear from him myself. I'm tired of having scum try to push town!me around.

[pingpongsam]

Faust has asked a lot of questions and made a lot of demands and not given many answers

Sorry. I know see that 6 wasn't a very good roll. I rolled only a couple dice, but 6 was the highest I had, and I had to play one.
So faust's assumption seems to not be taking a lot of things into account.

Also, how many dice did you roll exactly?

I'm back to vote: Ichimaru for now. The one thing we need to do is discourage bad dice rolls. And I think his reaction to being accused is scummy.

Alright, so this is what we do: We mass claim. The order will be this:

yuma
Witherweaver
Beyond Awesome
chairs
liopoil
Hydrad
Ichimaru Gin
ashersky
pingpongsam
faust
XerxesPraelor
mail-mi

We claim: Role, who we targeted, what happened to us. Does anyone have a problem with this?

In your next post, everyone please state: Did you target me on N0? Did you target me on N1 (other than with the Doc thingy)?

Xerxes, do you have any information about a role called "The Advisor"?

e, can you tell us how your role works, exactly?

Here's a plan:

e targets pingpongsam tonight. If he doesn't get any dice, we can confirm PPS is out of dice. If PPS is really out of dice, he is basically confirmed town, because why would scum reduce their own dice? If e does get dice, PPS is lying scum.

In the meantime, we lynch someone else. I propose WW.

Vote: Witherweaver

So faust, before we continue answering your questions, why don't you give us some explanations and answers yourself.

Why did you put yourself so low on the list when it comes to claiming?

What do you know about a role called "The Advisor"?

Why did you want to know if people targeted you N0 or N1?

It seems everyone is answering for Faust but Faust himself but I can say that since I received the same visit as Faust I know the answer to the majority of these questions myself. The claiming list I can't speak for but his ordering made sense to me at the time. I appreciate that we are looking into all possibilities but for me, Faust isn't a possibility for today. I just don't see scum doing what Faust did with the information we both now have. XP is also quite unlikely to be scum since he sent that information to the both of us. I would give XP less of a pass though since really all he has done is target but his responses to me and Faust after the fact seemed townies enough.

[liopoil]

Ignoring your claim is fine because your claim of how many dice you rolled doesn't mean anything.

It seems faust can't win with you. He suspects you, it's scummy. He backs off, it's scummy.

What the hell? Then why would he ask that and act like it would be so helpful?

Please, it's nowhere near as simple as behavior x and behavior y being opposites and me both finding them scummy. What it is is I see no reason why he backed off of me and obviously other's don't as well. WW still had a scumread on me through D1--as did quite a few other people. You admit that faust makes some good points against me, why does he suddenly drop it? Yes, tunneling someone all day and then dropping the case for no reason is scummy. The way you twist it though, you make it seem like the events aren't connected.

Screw it. I don't think this conversation is really going places right now. I am not changing my read on faust until I hear from him myself. I'm tired of having scum try to push town!me around.

(quotes snipped a lot)

It could have been helpful. If you had claimed to have rolled 5 dice that would have been very scummy. It also forces you to get on the record with something.

He backed off you because he realized you were acting townie. I agree, I had a townread on you D1. I don't agree with all of faust's points on you, but I do see his reasoning behind them and think they could be coming from town.

Oh, so now WW and I are scum. I think you are not entirely serious about that, just frustrated, but I mean, what we are doing is not scummy. I find ww a bit townie for this.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ignoring your claim is fine because your claim of how many dice you rolled doesn't mean anything.

It seems faust can't win with you. He suspects you, it's scummy. He backs off, it's scummy.

What the hell? Then why would he ask that and act like it would be so helpful?

Please, it's nowhere near as simple as behavior x and behavior y being opposites and me both finding them scummy. What it is is I see no reason why he backed off of me and obviously other's don't as well. WW still had a scumread on me through D1--as did quite a few other people. You admit that faust makes some good points against me, why does he suddenly drop it? Yes, tunneling someone all day and then dropping the case for no reason is scummy. The way you twist it though, you make it seem like the events aren't connected.

Screw it. I don't think this conversation is really going places right now. I am not changing my read on faust until I hear from him myself. I'm tired of having scum try to push town!me around.

(quotes snipped a lot)

It could have been helpful. If you had claimed to have rolled 5 dice that would have been very scummy. It also forces you to get on the record with something.

He backed off you because he realized you were acting townie. I agree, I had a townread on you D1. I don't agree with all of faust's points on you, but I do see his reasoning behind them and think they could be coming from town.

Oh, so now WW and I are scum. I think you are not entirely serious about that, just frustrated, but I mean, what we are doing is not scummy. I find ww a bit townie for this.

Ok. I like this post. Townier on you, still not sure on WW. You're right that I am frustrated. And there is still a part of me that feels that faust is "getting away with this" but whatever. It is undeniable that he voted for Voltaire where and when he did, which is hard to see him doing as scum

[Hydrad]

Wow a lot happened overnight.

Personally I feel faust is town but I do realize I can't be 100% sure of that because if he is scum somehow he has a very high chance of tricking everyone for the rest of the game.

the BA votes i'm ok with as people know and the pps votes are something that i would do as I read him as  null/scum but would rather lynch then no lynch.

[Hydrad]

Although I do agree I would like to have fausts information or have a mass claim or something. I feel like hes the one that knows whats going on and no one else has a clue.

I wouldn't be to unhappy about this but if he is town and scum kills him overnight would we just loos all that valuable information? I don't want to see that happen if its stuff that can help us win the game

[liopoil]

the pps votes are something that i would do as I read him as  null/scum but would rather lynch then no lynch.

what does this sentence mean?

Can we stop talking about massclaim please? massclaim is not going to happen. re: ash, I am in favor of just lynching the scum.

[Hydrad]

the pps votes are something that i would do as I read him as  null/scum but would rather lynch then no lynch.

what does this sentence mean?

Can we stop talking about massclaim please? massclaim is not going to happen. re: ash, I am in favor of just lynching the scum.

Ah i didn't word it very well

I guess I meant while PPS isn't one of my top scum suspects I definitely do not think of him as town either. So although there are others like BA, or chairs that I would like to lynch I would be willing to lynch PPS as I still think hes scummier then town.

[liopoil]

the pps votes are something that i would do as I read him as  null/scum but would rather lynch then no lynch.

what does this sentence mean?

Can we stop talking about massclaim please? massclaim is not going to happen. re: ash, I am in favor of just lynching the scum.

also, as of now I am the only one voting for pps . Is there something I'm missing? Should I just give up and look for pps's partner? (by this I don't mean look for people who look like partners with pps, I mean just look for another scum person. After all, I don't actually know that pps is scum.) If he is scum but I can't get him lynched, might as well lynch the other scum.

Who do I think is scum besides pps? Good question...

[Witherweaver]

I like BA and PPS.  Vote:PPS

[ashersky]

My vote is absolutely in the right place.

[faust]

Also, e, your above post is nonsensical. I am talking about using you as a 1-shot Cop, and you say "but Cops are useless"! Do you seriously think that a Cop is weaker than your dice-stealing power?

Cops?  I stay away from cops [as a rule] being the town thief.  Cops just don't understand people like me.

In all seriousness though, claiming cop and claiming thief are two totally different things, and you trying to equate them is kind of ridiculous.  Sure, alternative powers can be used in a cop-like manner, but it is just not the same.

In what way is using your power on PPS substantially weaker than using a Cop on PPS?

[faust]

Here's another question:

If I was talking about something called "The Grim ______", would you know what fills the gap? (Don't say what it is, just say "yes" or "no")

The Grim Reaper.  [thats a "no"]

I really feel like I should have looked this up before posting... not being a native speaker sure sucks sometimes

[ashersky]

The Grim Reaper is very famous (in English).

He's also very scummy.

If you are the Grim Reaper, we should lynch you.

Epic scumslip, if that's what happened.

[faust]

Yeah; vote: faust

Your plan is definitely not as good as a cop, because cops are hidden, and their target also isn't known to scum.

Also, I'm now in favor of a mass claim.

So what? We can find out PPS' alignment, which is all that really matters.

[faust]

Yeah; vote: faust

Wait, I thought you had a good reason to think faust was town because of D1?

No theory related reason, just a town read for telling the truth and his reactions to what I did.

Also  we all thought scum stole his dice, which is not true if we believe Ichi.

Huh? Noone stole my dice.

[faust]

I call e's above quote a scumslip if there ever was one.

vote: faust

scumslips don't exist.  But, as I actually think faust is town right now, unvote

And I do like a vote: faust until we get some answers from him

This happens within <4 hours, with no reason for your suddenly changed mind.

I am not going to answer your questions, because I do not think it is in town's best interest to answer them.

[faust]

Guess I'll make this point for the third time. But please someone take a look at the way faust backed off of me D1. After riding me the whole day and feeling apparently very confident about his read on me, he just dropped it and switched to Voltaire after I made a few joking posts. I feel very confident that he didn't really find my more recent posts townie, but needed to switch to his partner to look good.

I never felt "very confident". Your posts were more townie once you stopped defending yourself (which, sorry, you suck at). You can read that even while I was voting for you, Voltaire also was a scum read of mine.

[faust]

I don't buy it. Ichi, you're having a bit of tunnel vision and finding everything he does scummy. Faust has played very pro-town this game. Do I need to pull quotes, or are you guys (XerxesPraelor, 2.71828....., and Ichimaru Gin) going to see the light and snap out of it?

Also, why aren't more people voting for pps?

What a joke. I haven't said or done much to find faust scummy in quite a while (pretty much this whole day).

Why don't you look at what I actually said and tell me what you think about him tunneling me all day for D1. His first post was literally to vote for me and he kept it up for the entire day.

Sure, go ahead and pull quotes. I'm sure faust has done some townie things, but what, there is not one thing in my post that you think is legitimate or could offer an opinion on? It's not like I make the best cases, but I have a problem with you choosing to ignore every single point as just "you have tunnel vision" which is an obviously untrue statement.

PPE: XP. faust has acted pro-town but he's also scummy?

Also, man, I read you wrong on D1, get over it.

I second the question to Xerxes though.

[faust]

Also Ichi, you were a top scum read of mine day 1 so I don't really find Faust going after you too suspicious.

 I'm still not over newbie scum vibe from BA, by the way.  Reminds me of DD's first scum game.

Look. Though faust attacking me, who is confirmed town in some people's eyes now, is a component of the case on him, it is by no means the only thing.

Furthermore, now that I have semi-IC status, hopefully it is a little more apparent that faust's case on me was wrong.

After tunneling me the entire day, faust just ups and drops that case on me with one sentence. What convinced him to switch to Volt and drop the case he'd been working the entire day? When faust shows up, I want a better answer to that question.

PPE: 1

Voltaire continued acting scummy, you changed to more townie. Also, Voltaire seemed more likely to go through.

[faust]

Although I do agree I would like to have fausts information or have a mass claim or something. I feel like hes the one that knows whats going on and no one else has a clue.

I wouldn't be to unhappy about this but if he is town and scum kills him overnight would we just loos all that valuable information? I don't want to see that happen if its stuff that can help us win the game

Well, yeah, I want to keep information secret. I have information that I believe scum doesn't have, why would I present it to them? If I die, it is enough for you to know I had that information and it led me to believe some of you are town.

[faust]

The Grim Reaper is very famous (in English).

He's also very scummy.

If you are the Grim Reaper, we should lynch you.

Epic scumslip, if that's what happened.

I am not the Grim Reaper. Also, I don't think a role called "The Grim Reaper" is part of this game.

[faust]

What does everyone think about e? AM I the only one who thinks he's super scummy and nonsensical?

[2.71828.....]

I call e's above quote a scumslip if there ever was one.

vote: faust

scumslips don't exist.  But, as I actually think faust is town right now, unvote

And I do like a vote: faust until we get some answers from him

This happens within <4 hours, with no reason for your suddenly changed mind.

I am not going to answer your questions, because I do not think it is in town's best interest to answer them.

Ok, thanks.  That is a good enough answer for me.  I mean, that is basically the same answer I gave you, so it would be hypocritical if I refuse your answer while maintaining my own.

unvote

And now to look into why Ashersky is voting liopoil

[Hydrad]

What does everyone think about e? AM I the only one who thinks he's super scummy and nonsensical?

Hmm currently i would give e a null read. I do not think hes town but at the same time I don't feel hes scum either. Since I have no idea i'm just kinda ignoring him. Its really hard for me to read when he just switched in on day 2 since I can't easily use day 1 to see what he was doing.

[Hydrad]

oh i didn't even realize asher was voting liopol. I thought he was still on BA. interesting.

[Beyond Awesome]

I get a townish vibe from e.

[Beyond Awesome]

Honestly, what I really think is going on is a lot of town against town going on. There are 10 of us left after all and only 2 of them. I think scum is probably just sitting back and enjoying the ride. Chairs for instance has been lurking for pretty much forever.

[liopoil]

Honestly, what I really think is going on is a lot of town against town going on. There are 10 of us left after all and only 2 of them. I think scum is probably just sitting back and enjoying the ride. Chairs for instance has been lurking for pretty much forever.

agree with this for sure. chairs has a V/LA excuse now, but he was lurking before then too.

[2.71828.....]

After rereading liopoil, I just don't see a case against him.  If it is a scummy feeling that you are getting then that is all well and good, but I just don't see the justification for a vote in what he has posted so far.

In other news, while I was rereading I came across this little gem of WIFOM:

I think it is entirely possible scum is avoiding my wagon right now.

At this point his wagon looked like this:
Voltaire (5): mail-mi, Hydrad, Ichimaru Gin, XerxesPraelor, Beyond Awesome
Not voltaire (7): faust, Witherweaver, yuma/e, ashersky, liopoil, pingpongsam, chairs

Personally, I think this is a better rubric of scum on/off the wagon than the final vote count.  At this point in the game, there was absolutely no reason to believe that Voltaire was imminently close to getting lynched and I think he could very well have been trying to cover for a partner who was in fact on his wagon.

So given that, we now have better odds of finding scum if we look on-wagon as opposed to looking off-wagon.

And of all those people, I am inclined toward vote: BA

[liopoil]

there is no case on me, he just finds my posts scummy. I don't mind that, but I'd rather he be more helpful in scumhunting... he has been very unhelpful today, and also yesterday. At least we can count on him to hammer, right?

however, I'm not sure I agree with you about that volt post. Everything he says must be taken considering that he knew he would flip scum, if not on D1, eventually. I think he just didn't want to suspect the people on-wagon and instead wanted to suspect those off. Because his buddies were bussing? Well, maybe... but I mean, Voltaire more than likely bussed at least a little bit.

I have no problem with you voting for BA, but that's not a good reason to do it.

[Hydrad]

Here is why I'm going to Vote: BA

I think hes the mafia beastmaster who controls what the monsters do. On day 1 he rolled a 12 and I'm guessing wasn't able to reroll himself.

He also jumped on the wagon right in the middle as I think is a really nice time for scum to jump on. Also with that Volt quote right when he jumps on makes me suspicious even more.

On day 2 he rolled first and rolled a 5. He said his dice had been stolen so I sort of understand his panic of trying to roll right away but it also seems scummy.

Just overall I guess i've got a scummy vibe. My biggest fear is that scum is framing him with purposly not rerolling the 12 and stuff but even though there is that chance I still think hes the most scummy person here.

[ashersky]

vote: hydrad

[liopoil]

vote: hydrad

way to discourage him from taking a stance. Also, you really need to explain the stuff you do, man.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 2.7

Beyond Awesome (3): chairs, 2.71828....., Hydrad
chairs (2): mail-mi, Beyond Awesome
pingpongsam (2): liopoil, Witherweaver
2.71828..... (1): faust
faust (2): XerxesPraelor, Ichimaru Gin
Hydrad (1): ashersky

not voting (1): pingpongsam

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 9 at 11pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 11 at 11pm forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 64

[ashersky]

vote: hydrad

way to discourage him from taking a stance. Also, you really need to explain the stuff you do, man.

No one likes these arguments, so I don't make them, but, scumslip.

"Beastmaster" is way too specific not to be the actual role name, which he only knows because heis scum.

[liopoil]

you don't make them, huh?

IIRC the term beastmaster was used earlier, I could be wrong though.

[ashersky]

you don't make them, huh?

IIRC the term beastmaster was used earlier, I could be wrong though.

Anymore, I meant.

[ashersky]

you don't make them, huh?

IIRC the term beastmaster was used earlier, I could be wrong though.

But who uses beastmaster?  It's so random and specific.  They aren't called beasts.

[Beyond Awesome]

you don't make them, huh?

IIRC the term beastmaster was used earlier, I could be wrong though.

Who brought up the term earlier?

[Beyond Awesome]

But if reroller is town and thief is town, and destroy-half-supply-rounded-up-or-maybe-down (no one else thinks that's strange?) is a scum ability, what's the other one?  Monster control?  Maybe , but it could be factional ability, or random.

Yeah that is a good question. It'd be interesting if it was like Mafia Beastman or something. But from who they've attacked, I feel like it may be more random. Especially since it says "some level of control" it doesn't sound like they can neccesarily pinpoint attacks--though it does look like they can choose when the attacks happen.

I feel like some level of control might be that they don't know the power the monster will have? Becuase it's hitting pretty good targets.

Actually if BA was the beast master and wasn't allowed to target himself that would explain why the 12 stayed

Guess you're right. Hydrad uses the term two days ago as well.

[ashersky]

So only he's used it.

[liopoil]

control scum has over the beast

this too. ichi used "mafia beastman" as well.

[ashersky]

Other scum reads, right?

Look at the monster list...only the dragon could be a "beast" and that's a stretch.

[liopoil]

They aren't called beasts.

Jimmmmm used the term in flavor once.

no, e and ichi are not other scumreads

[ashersky]

They aren't called beasts.

Jimmmmm used the term in flavor once.

no, e and ichi are not other scumreads

Where?


And why are you defending him so much?  He hasn't tried to defend himself.  Caught scum disappears.

[2.71828.....]

control scum has over the beast

this too. ichi used "mafia beastman" as well.

The quote from me was immediately after hydrad said beastmaster and was on my mind.  If you take any more of that quote you will realize I used monster every other time.

Really, I think using "beast master" as a specific terminology would come from someone making up a role, because "monster" is clearly the correct terminology for our enemies and "monster" [probably] would have been used in any official PM. 

In any case, I seriously doubt such a role exists for a single scum because that just seems really weak and then also if that scum were to die then the mafia would now have 0 control over the monster and I just don't think that happens.  I think it is probably just something scum make a collective decision about in their qt about who (and maybe even when) the monster will attack the following day.

[Hydrad]

They aren't called beasts.

Jimmmmm used the term in flavor once.

no, e and ichi are not other scumreads

Where?


And why are you defending him so much?  He hasn't tried to defend himself.  Caught scum disappears.

Actually I just had to eat so I'm back now.

I came up with beastmaster after ichi used the term mafia beastman. I figured it was a easy term that many people would understand what I meant without me explaining that. "the person that controls the monsters" was just annoying to type so I shortned it to beastmaster.

[liopoil]

With the swing of a giant club, EFHW was squashed flat. And there behind her stood an enormous Troll!

ashersky, chairs, yuma, mail-mi, BoxOfDog, Voltaire, faust, XerxesPraelor, Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome, Ichimaru Gin, liopoil, Hydrad and pingpongsam stared in shock. How did the beast know where to find them?

For ash.

Really this is silly though. e is right, it's probably factional.

[ashersky]

control scum has over the beast

this too. ichi used "mafia beastman" as well.

The quote from me was immediately after hydrad said beastmaster and was on my mind.  If you take any more of that quote you will realize I used monster every other time.

Really, I think using "beast master" as a specific terminology would come from someone making up a role, because "monster" is clearly the correct terminology for our enemies and "monster" [probably] would have been used in any official PM. 

In any case, I seriously doubt such a role exists for a single scum because that just seems really weak and then also if that scum were to die then the mafia would now have 0 control over the monster and I just don't think that happens.  I think it is probably just something scum make a collective decision about in their qt about who (and maybe even when) the monster will attack the following day.

Unless you are wrong.

I can see Beastmaster being a day power for a scum player.  It's probably unblockable, untraceable, etc.  pretty strong, depending on the monster.  The "only one guy can do it" argument is terrible, as all PRs work that way.  You can't argue the Roleblocker was underpowered because only Voltaire could use it.

[ashersky]

With the swing of a giant club, EFHW was squashed flat. And there behind her stood an enormous Troll!

ashersky, chairs, yuma, mail-mi, BoxOfDog, Voltaire, faust, XerxesPraelor, Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome, Ichimaru Gin, liopoil, Hydrad and pingpongsam stared in shock. How did the beast know where to find them?

For ash.

Really this is silly though. e is right, it's probably factional.

Doesn't this just make it more sensible that beastmaster could be the role?

[2.71828.....]

With the swing of a giant club, EFHW was squashed flat. And there behind her stood an enormous Troll!

ashersky, chairs, yuma, mail-mi, BoxOfDog, Voltaire, faust, XerxesPraelor, Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome, Ichimaru Gin, liopoil, Hydrad and pingpongsam stared in shock. How did the beast know where to find them?

For ash.

Really this is silly though. e is right, it's probably factional.

Doesn't this just make it more sensible that beastmaster could be the role?

uh, no

[ashersky]

Hey is it factional?  You'd need to be able to discuss during the day, then.  It's neutered without daychat.

Makes much more sense as a singular day power.

[ashersky]

There is zero reason for anyone to use "Beastmaster" in conversation unless they knew it existed.

Hydrad is the Beastmaster, liopoil is his defensive partner.  2.7 is fighting for lio's spot on the roster.

[Hydrad]

Hey is it factional?  You'd need to be able to discuss during the day, then.  It's neutered without daychat.

Makes much more sense as a singular day power.

Do we know if mafia has day chat? or is that something that they would be told in their personal pms usually.

PPE: 1

[liopoil]

If anything, mafia beastman makes more sense than beastmaster, which is what ichimaru said.

Well now I'm sorry I asked why ash voted for Hydrad. Should have just ignored his antics like I usually do...

[Hydrad]

There is zero reason for anyone to use "Beastmaster" in conversation unless they knew it existed.

Hydrad is the Beastmaster, liopoil is his defensive partner.  2.7 is fighting for lio's spot on the roster.

Ok I realize I'm new but I highly doubt anyone even a new player would use a their term like that.

[ashersky]

If anything, mafia beastman makes more sense than beastmaster, which is what ichimaru said.

Well now I'm sorry I asked why ash voted for Hydrad. Should have just ignored his antics like I usually do...

Beastman?  Makes zero sense.

Beastmaster?  Master of the beasts.  Makes more than zero sense.

Liopoil, by the way, has been playing like aloof, caught but please don't notice me, scum since I zeroed in on him.

[ashersky]

There is zero reason for anyone to use "Beastmaster" in conversation unless they knew it existed.

Hydrad is the Beastmaster, liopoil is his defensive partner.  2.7 is fighting for lio's spot on the roster.

Ok I realize I'm new but I highly doubt anyone even a new player would use a their term like that.

You are absolutely right.  Not even a new player would use a term like that.

THEN WHY DID YOU USE IT??

Because you know it exists.  That is my argument, and you just defended it and proved it.

[Hydrad]

There is zero reason for anyone to use "Beastmaster" in conversation unless they knew it existed.

Hydrad is the Beastmaster, liopoil is his defensive partner.  2.7 is fighting for lio's spot on the roster.

Ok I realize I'm new but I highly doubt anyone even a new player would use a their term like that.

You are absolutely right.  Not even a new player would use a term like that.

THEN WHY DID YOU USE IT??

Because you know it exists.  That is my argument, and you just defended it and proved it.

I used it because I felt its just a word shortner instead of saying a phrase everytime I wanted to talk about the "beastmaster" I could just use that one word.

Also If really needed I can claim my role which is not the beastmaster and would have a high chance of being able to prove it too.

[ashersky]

There is zero reason for anyone to use "Beastmaster" in conversation unless they knew it existed.

Hydrad is the Beastmaster, liopoil is his defensive partner.  2.7 is fighting for lio's spot on the roster.

Ok I realize I'm new but I highly doubt anyone even a new player would use a their term like that.

You are absolutely right.  Not even a new player would use a term like that.

THEN WHY DID YOU USE IT??

Because you know it exists.  That is my argument, and you just defended it and proved it.

I used it because I felt its just a word shortner instead of saying a phrase everytime I wanted to talk about the "beastmaster" I could just use that one word.

Also If really needed I can claim my role which is not the beastmaster and would have a high chance of being able to prove it too.

Obviously you would claim a different role.  For you scum partner's sake, I'd wait until you are closer to lynch before fake claiming, though.

[ashersky]

My good deeds are done for the day.

Will still lynch lio, obv.

[liopoil]

Yeah, poor scumpartner

[Hydrad]

Ok then asher just a question. Pretend I was town and actually had a different role and could pretty much prove it. Should I claim it then?

[ashersky]

Ok then asher just a question. Pretend I was town and actually had a different role and could pretty much prove it. Should I claim it then?

Definitely not.  You've already said too much if you are town, as then real scum would know to kill you.

No reason to give them more information.  If you were a town PR, you'd definitely not claim until required (L-1).

[Hydrad]

Ok then asher just a question. Pretend I was town and actually had a different role and could pretty much prove it. Should I claim it then?

Definitely not.  You've already said too much if you are town, as then real scum would know to kill you.

No reason to give them more information.  If you were a town PR, you'd definitely not claim until required (L-1).

PR means power role right?

I think my claim would be fine then as I do not feel it is a power role. Its useful but not nearly as gamechanging as others.

[ashersky]

Ok then asher just a question. Pretend I was town and actually had a different role and could pretty much prove it. Should I claim it then?

Definitely not.  You've already said too much if you are town, as then real scum would know to kill you.

No reason to give them more information.  If you were a town PR, you'd definitely not claim until required (L-1).

PR means power role right?

I think my claim would be fine then as I do not feel it is a power role. Its useful but not nearly as gamechanging as others.

PR stands for power role but really means anything other than Vanilla Townie.

Useful is still better than Vanilla Townie.  That means losing a useful role is better for scum. 

Why are you so keen to claim?

[Hydrad]

Ok then asher just a question. Pretend I was town and actually had a different role and could pretty much prove it. Should I claim it then?

Definitely not.  You've already said too much if you are town, as then real scum would know to kill you.

No reason to give them more information.  If you were a town PR, you'd definitely not claim until required (L-1).

PR means power role right?

I think my claim would be fine then as I do not feel it is a power role. Its useful but not nearly as gamechanging as others.

PR stands for power role but really means anything other than Vanilla Townie.

Useful is still better than Vanilla Townie.  That means losing a useful role is better for scum. 

Why are you so keen to claim?

I guess i'm keen to claim so that we can use your vote in a more useful way then on me. But ok i'll take your advice and not claim for a bit

[liopoil]

For once I agree with ashersky - claiming is bad unless there is a clear benefit it will give to town. giving you towncred doesn't count because you aren't getting lynched anyway.

[pingpongsam]

I have half a notion to flip hydrad just to see if his role was beastmaster because if it were it would forever settle the scum slip debate. But, I have seen hydrad as town most of the game and the debate will be settled endgame no matter how you slice it. That said, I think ashersky's reason for voting is valid.

[XerxesPraelor]

Unvote
Vote: Hydrad

[Hydrad]

Oh man if I get lynched because of a term I created I will be dissapointed

[Ichimaru Gin]

Oh man if I get lynched because of a term I created I will be dissapointed

OK everyone. If this is the reason why you are voting for Hydrad, you are wrong!!

Yeah. I used the term "Beastman" as I was thinking of the character from He-Man and The Master's of the Universe. lol.

For sure, I think hydrad just used a similar term by mistake. Really, I don't see even newbie scum mentioning their PR right in the thread. This is a terrible reason to vote for someone IMO.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also. Out of curiosity faust, what did you expect people to fill in the blank with?

[Witherweaver]

Yeah; vote: faust

Wait, I thought you had a good reason to think faust was town because of D1?

No theory related reason, just a town read for telling the truth and his reactions to what I did.

Also  we all thought scum stole his dice, which is not true if we believe Ichi.

Huh? Noone stole my dice.

Sorry, meant reroll

[XerxesPraelor]

Oh man if I get lynched because of a term I created I will be dissapointed

I'm not voting you because of that, but because you were acting opportunistic in your votes and were role-fishing a bit. However, I recently reread my first game, and I acted like that as town, so maybe vote: BA is better.

[Beyond Awesome]

And, I believe that puts me at L-3.

[Beyond Awesome]

Oh man if I get lynched because of a term I created I will be dissapointed

OK everyone. If this is the reason why you are voting for Hydrad, you are wrong!!

Yeah. I used the term "Beastman" as I was thinking of the character from He-Man and The Master's of the Universe. lol.

For sure, I think hydrad just used a similar term by mistake. Really, I don't see even newbie scum mentioning their PR right in the thread. This is a terrible reason to vote for someone IMO.

I agree with Ichi. I don't see anyone, not even a newbie slipping their PR name in like that.

[Witherweaver]

Honestly, what I really think is going on is a lot of town against town going on. There are 10 of us left after all and only 2 of them. I think scum is probably just sitting back and enjoying the ride. Chairs for instance has been lurking for pretty much forever.

Huge scum read from this.  Can we lynch BA?

[Beyond Awesome]

So, I am going to bed pretty soon and will be goon most of tomorrow. Should I just claim now? I don't really want to be mislynched when I am gone and can't do anything about it.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So, I am going to bed pretty soon and will be goon most of tomorrow. Should I just claim now? I don't really want to be mislynched when I am gone and can't do anything about it.

goon most of tomorrow?

[Beyond Awesome]

So, I am going to bed pretty soon and will be goon most of tomorrow. Should I just claim now? I don't really want to be mislynched when I am gone and can't do anything about it.

goon most of tomorrow?

That should be gone.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So, I am going to bed pretty soon and will be goon most of tomorrow. Should I just claim now? I don't really want to be mislynched when I am gone and can't do anything about it.

goon most of tomorrow?

That should be gone.

I'm not one to normally make scumslip arguments. Guess I'll wait around for someone who does.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, I am going to bed pretty soon and will be goon most of tomorrow. Should I just claim now? I don't really want to be mislynched when I am gone and can't do anything about it.

goon most of tomorrow?

That should be gone.

I'm not one to normally make scumslip arguments. Guess I'll wait around for someone who does.

Someone will. So, I might as well claim now.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, I really wanted to wait on this, but seeing as how a mislynch is likely while I am gone seeing how Ash hammered D1, here is my role.

I can inspect players weapons i.e. their dice. I can't find out how many dice they have, but I can find out what values their dice roll.

On N0, I inspected e/yuma and got the result 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12
On N1, I inspected Mail-Mi because he did not roll that day and got the result 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12

Originally, I was thinking scum had dice that could not go up to 12 which is why earlier I brought up that Hydrad had 7 twice and liopoli had 8 and then 6.

However, Faust had the suggestion that the dice stealer might roll a six-sided die. I don't know if faust was just theorizing or has an ability that rolls a six-sided die or is the dice-stealer himself, but that makes me think my role can find at least one scum. My guess is that their is likely one town with another die power and one scum. I might be wrong though. But, I am sure my role is good for something. I am probably the closet thing we have to a cop in this game.

[Beyond Awesome]

Sorry town 

I really did not want to claim.

[Beyond Awesome]

Now, can we please go after chairs? Thank you.

[Hydrad]

Interesting. I'm not 100% sure how that is useful. Unless there is something like scum can only roll up to a certain number? but most people have rolled at least one high number...

I really don't know what to make of your power.

[Hydrad]

But at the same time I will say that that seems like a super easy power to invent for a fake claim and not really have any way to prove against it.

[Beyond Awesome]

Interesting. I'm not 100% sure how that is useful. Unless there is something like scum can only roll up to a certain number? but most people have rolled at least one high number...

I really don't know what to make of your power.

My guess is that my power is useful in that if a player has dice that don't roll up to 12, I will find out. And, my guess is there is probably one scum player and one town player where this is the case. Although, that is pure conjuncture on my part. The usefulness of my power is that it has the potential to help town catch scum.

[Beyond Awesome]

But at the same time I will say that that seems like a super easy power to invent for a fake claim and not really have any way to prove against it.

If I manage to catch scum, that would make my power pretty darn verifiable.

[Hydrad]

But at the same time I will say that that seems like a super easy power to invent for a fake claim and not really have any way to prove against it.

If I manage to catch scum, that would make my power pretty darn verifiable.

True but even if you found out someone can't roll a 12 does that mean that they are scum?

[Beyond Awesome]

But at the same time I will say that that seems like a super easy power to invent for a fake claim and not really have any way to prove against it.

If I manage to catch scum, that would make my power pretty darn verifiable.

True but even if you found out someone can't roll a 12 does that mean that they are scum?

No. It doesn't. But, there would probably be a decent chance they were. Also, they might be able to roll a 12, but with Faust's theory have another dice rolling ability like rolling a six-sided die. So, I would find out about that as well.

[ashersky]

Unless 1-6 is included in 1-12.

[ashersky]

Unless someone can roll higher than 12, or no dice going above X, your power is useless.

Scum not having the ability to roll and play a 12 is pretty crappy for scum, and I don't know that Jimmmmm would do that without a pretty strong counter power.

Seems like your power is odd and made up.

[Beyond Awesome]

Unless someone can roll higher than 12, or no dice going above X, your power is useless.

Scum not having the ability to roll and play a 12 is pretty crappy for scum, and I don't know that Jimmmmm would do that without a pretty strong counter power.

Seems like your power is odd and made up.

It is definitely not made up.

[Beyond Awesome]

And, scum would probably want to push my mislynch as much as possible.

[Beyond Awesome]

Unless 1-6 is included in 1-12.

I'm guessing that would not be the case. Otherwise, why would I have this role in the first place?

[XerxesPraelor]

Yeah, that's not very convincing. Keeping my vote on BA. Also, note that he specifically mentioned that he doesn't learn how many dice someone has, even though his power as stated isn't that similar.

[XerxesPraelor]

Unless 1-6 is included in 1-12.

I'm guessing that would not be the case. Otherwise, why would I have this role in the first place?

Since it seems likely to be the case, you probably don't have the role in the first place.

[Beyond Awesome]

Do you guys really want to get rid of the closest thing we have to a cop this game?

[XerxesPraelor]

How do you know we don't have anything closer?

And it's quite a bit worse than a cop anyways, since we don't have confirmation of alignment in either case. If you had "copped" scum, it would be more believable, but right now it's not very plausible and not very useful even if it is true.

[Beyond Awesome]

How do you know we don't have anything closer?

And it's quite a bit worse than a cop anyways, since we don't have confirmation of alignment in either case. If you had "copped" scum, it would be more believable, but right now it's not very plausible and not very useful even if it is true.

Fair enough. But, I do believe my power to be useful, and who is to day I won't "cop" scum on D3?

[Beyond Awesome]

For what it is worth, there is probably a reasonable chance I get NK'd. If I survive, then I can give my result on D3.

[ashersky]

BA looking bad here.

[Beyond Awesome]

BA looking bad here.

The only people looking bad are those pushing my mislynch when I flip town.

[Ichimaru Gin]

BA looking bad here.

I feel like town would be much more desperate and combative here. I felt he was townier early in the game, not so much at all now.

I don't know if you caught his "scumslip" earlier. But it was one of the more legitimate ones I've seen.

[Beyond Awesome]

BA looking bad here.

I feel like town would be much more desperate and combative here. I felt he was townier early in the game, not so much at all now.

I don't know if you caught his "scumslip" earlier. But it was one of the more legitimate ones I've seen.

I'm not desperate because I figure I am a dead man either way. Either I get NK'd or get mislynched. At least, the mislynch will give town some info.

Besides, I don't have much to be combative about. The case is that my ability is not easily verifiable and sounds weird. Then, we have all the reroll stuff from D1 and then my dice getting stolen D2. Bravo scum! You have done a great job here setting me up to be the mislynch today.

[Hydrad]

BA looking bad here.

I feel like town would be much more desperate and combative here. I felt he was townier early in the game, not so much at all now.

I don't know if you caught his "scumslip" earlier. But it was one of the more legitimate ones I've seen.

Which scumslip was that?

[Ichimaru Gin]

BA looking bad here.

I feel like town would be much more desperate and combative here. I felt he was townier early in the game, not so much at all now.

I don't know if you caught his "scumslip" earlier. But it was one of the more legitimate ones I've seen.

Which scumslip was that?

BA said "I will be goon most of tomorrow..."
Sure, it could have been a typo I guess. But it's not like those keys are even close together--so I feel like it may have been a slip.

[Beyond Awesome]

In case I do get mislynched, I do want to say a few things.

One, freaking lynch chairs.

Two, Ash seems pretty scummy.

Three, I am not sure what to make of Hydrads and liopoil's rolls. Is it possible that at least one scum can't roll up to 12?

Four, I think Faust is town, but he acts pretty scummy. Slight chance he is scum.

Five, slight chance mail-mi is scum even though he has that power. He is faded into the background which is what scum would want to do. You guys might want to consider lynching him,

Six, I think WW is town, but don't be 100% sure on that. After all, tradition states that WW is always scum.

Seven, I think PPS is town.

Eight, I think XP is town.

Oh, and I think Hydrad is town. I think scum is trying to also get him mislynched since this is his first game.

Oh, and pay attention to the rolls. Knowing what my role is, compare the roles of players from all three days.

[Beyond Awesome]

I meant to say compare the rolls of players from all three days.

[Hydrad]

BA looking bad here.

I feel like town would be much more desperate and combative here. I felt he was townier early in the game, not so much at all now.

I don't know if you caught his "scumslip" earlier. But it was one of the more legitimate ones I've seen.

Which scumslip was that?

BA said "I will be goon most of tomorrow..."
Sure, it could have been a typo I guess. But it's not like those keys are even close together--so I feel like it may have been a slip.

honestly I feel like that slip is as probable as my supposed scum slip. Why would he ever say goon there? like that just seems so unlickly that while typing gone he was thinking of himself as a goon and typed it?

I feel like its just a typo, I've done some horrible typos before much worse then that. The only thing I could think of is maybe goon is a code word for something? so that his partner knows what to do?

All in all i'm 95% sure thats just a typo.

PEE:2

[Beyond Awesome]

Finally, I fully expect to get lynched. I am not trying to get out of being lynched. The above post of my thoughts/reads is not me trying to look town or save me from getting lynched. That's there for you guys when I am dead and can no longer contribute. Hopefully, it proves useful and you guys pay attention to what I said.

Oh, and the more I think about it, I do think it fishy mail-mi has faded to the background. I would say there is a decent chance he is scum. Maybe, a very good chance actually.

[Hydrad]

Finally, I fully expect to get lynched. I am not trying to get out of being lynched. The above post of my thoughts/reads is not me trying to look town or save me from getting lynched. That's there for you guys when I am dead and can no longer contribute. Hopefully, it proves useful and you guys pay attention to what I said.

Oh, and the more I think about it, I do think it fishy mail-mi has faded to the background. I would say there is a decent chance he is scum. Maybe, a very good chance actually.

the mail-mi thing is I think a day or two ago he said he will be unavailable all week and I think he is trying to /out and find a sub

[Beyond Awesome]

Finally, I fully expect to get lynched. I am not trying to get out of being lynched. The above post of my thoughts/reads is not me trying to look town or save me from getting lynched. That's there for you guys when I am dead and can no longer contribute. Hopefully, it proves useful and you guys pay attention to what I said.

Oh, and the more I think about it, I do think it fishy mail-mi has faded to the background. I would say there is a decent chance he is scum. Maybe, a very good chance actually.

the mail-mi thing is I think a day or two ago he said he will be unavailable all week and I think he is trying to /out and find a sub

Oh yah, forgot about that good point. Then, disregard what I said about mail-mi. Small chance at being scum then. Chairs, Ash, and lio are my top three and in that order.

[ashersky]

Okay, I really wanted to wait on this, but seeing as how a mislynch is likely while I am gone seeing how Ash hammered D1, here is my role.

I can inspect players weapons i.e. their dice. I can't find out how many dice they have, but I can find out what values their dice roll.

On N0, I inspected e/yuma and got the result 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12
On N1, I inspected Mail-Mi because he did not roll that day and got the result 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12

Originally, I was thinking scum had dice that could not go up to 12 which is why earlier I brought up that Hydrad had 7 twice and liopoli had 8 and then 6.

However, Faust had the suggestion that the dice stealer might roll a six-sided die. I don't know if faust was just theorizing or has an ability that rolls a six-sided die or is the dice-stealer himself, but that makes me think my role can find at least one scum. My guess is that their is likely one town with another die power and one scum. I might be wrong though. But, I am sure my role is good for something. I am probably the closet thing we have to a cop in this game.

So here's the claim post.  A few points:

1.  No role name given.  That's a fake claim tell.
2.  "Probably the closest thing to a cop we have in this game."  That's absurd and is stretching his claim to try and save himself.  (Note, he later says he has no hope and knows he's the lynch.)
3.  He is claiming his role is "Target a player at night.  You will learn the possible values his dice may role."  Is that about right?  As mentioned, unless some players can roll higher than others, this tells you nothing.  Scum only rolling 6-sided die, for example.  That's pretty unverifiable at best.
4.  His faust thing...he thinks if a scum players has a 12-sided die AND a 6-sided die, he'd get two lines of answers?  That's...not how his explanation of his role works above.  Inconsistency within the claim.
5.  Unpressured claim that came when he felt he was under pressure.  That's a newbie scum tell, being more worried than he needs to be.

[faust]

Also. Out of curiosity faust, what did you expect people to fill in the blank with?

With the obvious. I wasn't aware that it is like a standard expression in English.

[faust]

Ha! We still might get our PPS investigation, even without e's cooperation!

So PPS has no dice left, correct? That would mean that BA should probably get "nothing" as a result, if I'm not mistaken.

BA, can you check back with Jimmmmm to find out what your power would do when you target a player that has no dice left?

[2.71828.....]

BA looking bad here.

I feel like town would be much more desperate and combative here. I felt he was townier early in the game, not so much at all now.

I don't know if you caught his "scumslip" earlier. But it was one of the more legitimate ones I've seen.

Which scumslip was that?

BA said "I will be goon most of tomorrow..."
Sure, it could have been a typo I guess. But it's not like those keys are even close together--so I feel like it may have been a slip.

This talk about a "scumslip" is absolutely ridiculous.  That is clearly a typo and I find it rather annoying that you would bring it up as a scumslip.  Just thought I would get that off my chest

[2.71828.....]

Each Day the Town will be confronted with a new Monster. In order to fight these Monsters, each player will begin the game with some number of dice in their supply. By default, dice in the game are normal, fair, 12-sided dice.

I can inspect players weapons i.e. their dice. I can't find out how many dice they have, but I can find out what values their dice roll.

On N0, I inspected e/yuma and got the result 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12
On N1, I inspected Mail-Mi because he did not roll that day and got the result 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12

Interesting.  I have only rolled up to a 10 so far, so I don't know if I follow the default of a 12 sided dice or am only able to roll up to a 10.  I will ask in my qt but don't really expect to get an answer. 

I am probably the closet thing we have to a cop in this game.

Since the standard is 12, I think he may actually have a bit of a function as a cop, but not enough to where if he came back with a different result I would rush to vote that player.  It is entirely possible that a town member only rolls a 10 sided dice or something and scum can roll a 14 sided dice.  We just don't know.

As far as if this claim is actually a fake claim or a real claim.  I am not sure.  One point that I would make is that he is extremely overestimating his power in saying that he is "the closest thing that we have to a cop."  But I don't know if that is scum trying to say "I am powerful so don't lynch me" or just town who overestimates the power of his role

[2.71828.....]

I will ask in my qt but don't really expect to get an answer. 

yeah, I was right.  no confirmation that I roll a 12-sided dice.  Thats what I expected, but I thought I might as well ask.

[faust]

The case on yuma/e

1. The claim

PPS claims having dice "stolen" early on. yuma does not respond to this at all. I think that a town Thief would like, have some kind of reaction to the fact that someone else claims to be targeted with his power. But no, there's nothing. In the same way, he does not show any surprise at all when BA claims that his supply was attacked. He only claims after I tell him to.

Really: If I was a town Thief and a player claims to be attacked by my power, my reactions would be:
1) Wow, so scum seems to have a Redirector!
2) PPS is probably lying.

This seems information worth sharing, especially seeing that yuma was already an advocate of mass-claiming. I would definitely not just keep this to myself, also because Thief is kind of crappy as a town power and thus it doesn't matter much if outed.

One last thing: town!yuma would know he's a really good scum night kill target. It seems that if you know you're likely to be nightkilled, you wouldn't want to accumulate lots of dice that you steal from other players who are probably town as well.

2. Behaviour towards Voltaire

yuma starts defending Ichi relatively early, saying low dice rolls are not suspicious. This is scummy, considering that it also defends Voltaire. Here is another post where he defends low rolling and instead tries to throw suspicion on players who attacked Voltaire.

3. e's interactions today

I'm ignoring e's initial read posts for this. If I was joining a game halfway through, I'd do the reread before looking up my scum partners, so that it seems more genuine. So I doubt there's much information to be gained.

Here, e states that it is "very likely" that scum is on-wagon. His reasoning for it is merely that it is possible that scum vote for their partners on D1. Well, yes, but how does this make it "very likely" that it happened here? I think e just wants to divert attention from himself.

I already went on a rant on why e not agreeing to Cop PPS is supremely scummy. When I call him out for not considering PPS as scum, all he has in response is "scumslips don't exist". It seems like he wants people to forget this because he knows how bad he looks there. The next post I will fully quote:

Also, e, your above post is nonsensical. I am talking about using you as a 1-shot Cop, and you say "but Cops are useless"! Do you seriously think that a Cop is weaker than your dice-stealing power?

Cops?  I stay away from cops [as a rule] being the town thief.  Cops just don't understand people like me.

In all seriousness though, claiming cop and claiming thief are two totally different things, and you trying to equate them is kind of ridiculous.  Sure, alternative powers can be used in a cop-like manner, but it is just not the same. 

We want as many people to roll when fighting against monsters.  What you propose guarantees that one of our number cannot roll.  You yourself said D1 that we need to discourage low rolls, and that was a major part of your longstanding case against ichi.  Well, what you propose is even worse than encouraging a low roll, you are encouraging a non-roll.  It is totally possible that PPS might gain dice overnight.  I do not want to tamper with that.

First thing is a kind of nervous joke. He then states Copping and using his power are "not the same" without reasoning. Next he says he does not want to prevent PPS from gaining dice. I don't know about you, but I'm willing to trade a Cop result for a slightly reduced chance to beat the monster tomorrow any time. Also, he still never seems to consider that PPS is lying, which, by point 1 of this case, is something that should be rather probable for him.

The next suspicious post:

I call e's above quote a scumslip if there ever was one.

vote: faust

scumslips don't exist.  But, as I actually think faust is town right now, unvote

And I do like a vote: faust until we get some answers from him

This happens within <4 hours, with no reason for your suddenly changed mind.

I am not going to answer your questions, because I do not think it is in town's best interest to answer them.

Ok, thanks.  That is a good enough answer for me.  I mean, that is basically the same answer I gave you, so it would be hypocritical if I refuse your answer while maintaining my own.

unvote

And now to look into why Ashersky is voting liopoil

Really? First he finds me not giving answers scummy enough to change from a town read to voting me, and when I give the standard response to being mysterious, that I would have given regardless of alignment and was totally to be expected, he suddenly backs off.

So here's (I think) very compelling evidence for e being scum. What do other think?

[liopoil]

BA, No dominion card? scummmmmyyyyyyyy...... I will catch up on everything, check the vote count, then vote for him.

[faust]

BA, No dominion card? scummmmmyyyyyyyy...... I will catch up on everything, check the vote count, then vote for him.

Ichi also claimed no dominion card.

[pingpongsam]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

[2.71828.....]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

I am down with vote: yuma.  Not so sure about vote: e though.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: 2.71828...

[liopoil]

Okay, Vote: Beyond Awesome. That was a scummy claim and he was scummy before it too. That is L-2

[liopoil]

Even if his claim is true it still was scummy to claim it when he did. Scum may have roles which seem to be pro-town.

[2.71828.....]

The case on yuma/e

1. The claim

PPS claims having dice "stolen" early on. yuma does not respond to this at all. I think that a town Thief would like, have some kind of reaction to the fact that someone else claims to be targeted with his power. But no, there's nothing. In the same way, he does not show any surprise at all when BA claims that his supply was attacked. He only claims after I tell him to.

Really: If I was a town Thief and a player claims to be attacked by my power, my reactions would be:
1) Wow, so scum seems to have a Redirector!
2) PPS is probably lying.

This seems information worth sharing, especially seeing that yuma was already an advocate of mass-claiming. I would definitely not just keep this to myself, also because Thief is kind of crappy as a town power and thus it doesn't matter much if outed.

One last thing: town!yuma would know he's a really good scum night kill target. It seems that if you know you're likely to be nightkilled, you wouldn't want to accumulate lots of dice that you steal from other players who are probably town as well.

The reactions to PPS saying that his dice were stolen necessitate a claim.  And that is exactly what yuma wanted to do:

I actually think a huge mass claim in terms of powers/dice/rolls/stored dice/etc could be largely beneficial to us. It would give mafia info yes. But it would allow us to best coordinate how to defeat monsters, allow us to force mafia to be more or less truthful about their dice and what they are doing with them (maybe catch them in a lie in regard to what they are doing...) and coordinate powers better that we have as town. Yes downside is mafia would know what we are doing, be better able to determine kills and the like on powerful roles as is the usual with mass claiming... But I think it is very likely worth it.

and again:

still think claiming has potential to help us, but I'll concede to the majority and let it wait for a day or two... not sure why suggesting claiming is scummy

Also, both of the responses you list are absolutely ridiculous.  For example, #1 is false since both Box and PPS claimed to have been stolen from.  I am pretty sure a redirector does not work like that.  So the evidence points to 2 dice stealing/destroying (we still don't know 100% there are two thieves) people.  And then claiming that someone is lying about having dice stolen?  Doesn't really make sense.  So no, those things are not "information worth sharing."  At least not information worth giving up your PR prematurely.

And "he only claims after I tell him to" is a little presumptuous.  He claimed because someone, anyone, was in favor of claiming.  He was chomping at the bit to claim D1, and did so the first opportunity he had D2.  He really only posted once D2 before getting subbed (7 posts in 12 minutes = reading through the thread and replying as you go) and right out of the gate claimed.  So town told him don't claim D1 when he wanted to, and then as soon as he had some confirmation from town to claim, he did so.

And then that last little bit of "not wanting too many dice because you know you will get NKed" is absolutely ridiculous.

[faust]

The case on yuma/e

1. The claim

PPS claims having dice "stolen" early on. yuma does not respond to this at all. I think that a town Thief would like, have some kind of reaction to the fact that someone else claims to be targeted with his power. But no, there's nothing. In the same way, he does not show any surprise at all when BA claims that his supply was attacked. He only claims after I tell him to.

Really: If I was a town Thief and a player claims to be attacked by my power, my reactions would be:
1) Wow, so scum seems to have a Redirector!
2) PPS is probably lying.

This seems information worth sharing, especially seeing that yuma was already an advocate of mass-claiming. I would definitely not just keep this to myself, also because Thief is kind of crappy as a town power and thus it doesn't matter much if outed.

One last thing: town!yuma would know he's a really good scum night kill target. It seems that if you know you're likely to be nightkilled, you wouldn't want to accumulate lots of dice that you steal from other players who are probably town as well.

The reactions to PPS saying that his dice were stolen necessitate a claim.  And that is exactly what yuma wanted to do:

I actually think a huge mass claim in terms of powers/dice/rolls/stored dice/etc could be largely beneficial to us. It would give mafia info yes. But it would allow us to best coordinate how to defeat monsters, allow us to force mafia to be more or less truthful about their dice and what they are doing with them (maybe catch them in a lie in regard to what they are doing...) and coordinate powers better that we have as town. Yes downside is mafia would know what we are doing, be better able to determine kills and the like on powerful roles as is the usual with mass claiming... But I think it is very likely worth it.

and again:

still think claiming has potential to help us, but I'll concede to the majority and let it wait for a day or two... not sure why suggesting claiming is scummy

Also, both of the responses you list are absolutely ridiculous.  For example, #1 is false since both Box and PPS claimed to have been stolen from.  I am pretty sure a redirector does not work like that.  So the evidence points to 2 dice stealing/destroying (we still don't know 100% there are two thieves) people.  And then claiming that someone is lying about having dice stolen?  Doesn't really make sense.  So no, those things are not "information worth sharing."  At least not information worth giving up your PR prematurely.

yuma posted before Box claimed, so he didn't know yet that Box's dice were stolen. And why doesn't claiming that someone is lying make sense? Scum lies.

[2.71828.....]

The case on yuma/e

2. Behaviour towards Voltaire

yuma starts defending Ichi relatively early, saying low dice rolls are not suspicious. This is scummy, considering that it also defends Voltaire. Here is another post where he defends low rolling and instead tries to throw suspicion on players who attacked Voltaire.

really just grasping at straws here.  If you call this:

That said ichi and volt have responded pretty aggressively. Id on't think aggression is suspicious, especially in the face of unwarranted, or perceived unwarranted, suspicion. I think I am most suspicious of the people who pressed them the most.

"trying to throw suspicion on people who attacked Voltaire" then I don't know what to say.  Especially because at the end of his post he doesn't even list any of those people as scummy.

As far as defending low rolls, I agree with what yuma said.

[faust]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

Wait, what? can you expand on that bit about your role?

[2.71828.....]

The case on yuma/e

1. The claim

PPS claims having dice "stolen" early on. yuma does not respond to this at all. I think that a town Thief would like, have some kind of reaction to the fact that someone else claims to be targeted with his power. But no, there's nothing. In the same way, he does not show any surprise at all when BA claims that his supply was attacked. He only claims after I tell him to.

Really: If I was a town Thief and a player claims to be attacked by my power, my reactions would be:
1) Wow, so scum seems to have a Redirector!
2) PPS is probably lying.

This seems information worth sharing, especially seeing that yuma was already an advocate of mass-claiming. I would definitely not just keep this to myself, also because Thief is kind of crappy as a town power and thus it doesn't matter much if outed.

One last thing: town!yuma would know he's a really good scum night kill target. It seems that if you know you're likely to be nightkilled, you wouldn't want to accumulate lots of dice that you steal from other players who are probably town as well.

The reactions to PPS saying that his dice were stolen necessitate a claim.  And that is exactly what yuma wanted to do:

I actually think a huge mass claim in terms of powers/dice/rolls/stored dice/etc could be largely beneficial to us. It would give mafia info yes. But it would allow us to best coordinate how to defeat monsters, allow us to force mafia to be more or less truthful about their dice and what they are doing with them (maybe catch them in a lie in regard to what they are doing...) and coordinate powers better that we have as town. Yes downside is mafia would know what we are doing, be better able to determine kills and the like on powerful roles as is the usual with mass claiming... But I think it is very likely worth it.

and again:

still think claiming has potential to help us, but I'll concede to the majority and let it wait for a day or two... not sure why suggesting claiming is scummy

Also, both of the responses you list are absolutely ridiculous.  For example, #1 is false since both Box and PPS claimed to have been stolen from.  I am pretty sure a redirector does not work like that.  So the evidence points to 2 dice stealing/destroying (we still don't know 100% there are two thieves) people.  And then claiming that someone is lying about having dice stolen?  Doesn't really make sense.  So no, those things are not "information worth sharing."  At least not information worth giving up your PR prematurely.

yuma posted before Box claimed, so he didn't know yet that Box's dice were stolen. And why doesn't claiming that someone is lying make sense? Scum lies.

So you are saying he should have jumped out and told the world that there was a redirector or that scum was lying before his target had even posted.  Really?  I mean, that just seems ridiculous

[faust]

So you are saying he should have jumped out and told the world that there was a redirector or that scum was lying before his target had even posted.  Really?  I mean, that just seems ridiculous

I expected some reaction at some point. yuma could have died on N1, taking his information to the grave. He would at least have dropped hints.

[pingpongsam]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

Wait, what? can you expand on that bit about your role?

It's fairly complicated and totally swingy. When I target a player they receive a 12 sided die. However, when any other player ( I assume the next one but no further after?) gains a die through any method it will be an 8 sided die without their knowledge. Their rolls will alternate between the 8 sided die and the 12 sided dies in their supply. Thus, having a role that detects how many sides are on dice directly relates to what my role does.

[faust]

Okay, then I need BA to clarify: Do you inspect all dice or one single die (i.e. the next die to roll)?

[faust]

Note that BA's claim also fits with the rolls where all dice had the same value.

[XerxesPraelor]

I guess that's evidence in favor of BA. I still think he's scummy, though. vote: e. I think I'll sheep Faust here - the case fits.

[liopoil]

It isn't evidence in favor of BA. I think he is scum who probably does have a PR like that.

[2.71828.....]

The case on yuma/e

3. e's interactions today

Here, e states that it is "very likely" that scum is on-wagon. His reasoning for it is merely that it is possible that scum vote for their partners on D1. Well, yes, but how does this make it "very likely" that it happened here? I think e just wants to divert attention from himself.

Sure there is some motive in diverting attention away from myself.  But I am also working with the knowledge that if their weren't any scum on the wagon, then 2 of liopoil, chairs, and WW are scum.  I just don't see that being true.  Maybe one of those three are scum, but I highly doubt 2.  Then we also have the post by Voltaire saying that scum are avoiding his wagon.  In all, I think there is a ton of WIFOM in saying scum is on/off wagon because of the quicklynch.

I already went on a rant on why e not agreeing to Cop PPS is supremely scummy. When I call him out for not considering PPS as scum, all he has in response is "scumslips don't exist". It seems like he wants people to forget this because he knows how bad he looks there. The next post I will fully quote:

First thing is a kind of nervous joke. He then states Copping and using his power are "not the same" without reasoning. Next he says he does not want to prevent PPS from gaining dice. I don't know about you, but I'm willing to trade a Cop result for a slightly reduced chance to beat the monster tomorrow any time. Also, he still never seems to consider that PPS is lying, which, by point 1 of this case, is something that should be rather probable for him.

Insert-->" I want to vote e because my plan is brilliant and he doesn't want to do it"

As far as the joke goes, I do that sometimes.  Check my earlier games.

And as far as PPS lying goes, since we had two people lose dice over N0, and two people lose dice over N1, why should I think that PPS is lying when he said his dice were stolen?

The next suspicious post:

I call e's above quote a scumslip if there ever was one.

vote: faust

scumslips don't exist.  But, as I actually think faust is town right now, unvote

And I do like a vote: faust until we get some answers from him

This happens within <4 hours, with no reason for your suddenly changed mind.

I am not going to answer your questions, because I do not think it is in town's best interest to answer them.

Ok, thanks.  That is a good enough answer for me.  I mean, that is basically the same answer I gave you, so it would be hypocritical if I refuse your answer while maintaining my own.

unvote

And now to look into why Ashersky is voting liopoil

Really? First he finds me not giving answers scummy enough to change from a town read to voting me, and when I give the standard response to being mysterious, that I would have given regardless of alignment and was totally to be expected, he suddenly backs off.

Calm down.  Lets talk about voting.  You say that I changed from a town read to voting you.  That is partially true.  The part that isn't true is that I changed from a town read on you.  I still thought you were town even when I voted for you.  You were never in any danger, and I wanted to catch your attention and get a specific response.  And I did.  What I accomplished is getting you to give the same response that I gave to your further probes.  Namely that you do not think it is in town's best interest to answer those questions.  So now when I give that answer, who are you to say that I am scummy for it?  Namely, I do not think that it is in town's best interest to fully explain all of my reasoning behind not wanting to do your plan regarding PPS.

So here's (I think) very compelling evidence for e being scum. What do other think?

[Beyond Awesome]

Ha! We still might get our PPS investigation, even without e's cooperation!

So PPS has no dice left, correct? That would mean that BA should probably get "nothing" as a result, if I'm not mistaken.

BA, can you check back with Jimmmmm to find out what your power would do when you target a player that has no dice left?

I just asked in my QT.

[2.71828.....]

and another question to ponder:

why would scum!yuma claim thief after his partner has already been lynched?  I mean, people were already wanting to lynch the thief before the claim, so you would think that scum!thief would be opposed to claiming.

think about it

[Beyond Awesome]

I also just saw the post about PPS claiming to have an ability with an 8-sided die. Also, for who asked about the results I get, I am assuming from the way my role is worded, I would get the results for the various dice they have. So, if someone had an 8-sided die and a 12-sided die, I think I would find out. I will also ask Jimmm to make double sure.

[Beyond Awesome]

I am actually finding Hydrad's 7 more scummier the more I think about it. This was also the same value he rolled D1. And, D2, a roll of 7 does nothing.

Why do bring this up?
Maybe because you have the(?) PR that makes people roll only what they rolled yesterday.

I have been observing everyone's rolls and comparing rolls that stand out to me to D1 rolls. For instance, lio got a 8 on D1 and 6 on D2.

Also, on July 2nd, here is my post where I talk about observing people's rolls. Interestingly enough after I said that, Faust and Hydrad voted for me almost immediately after. But, anyway, you guys can now see why I brought attention to lio's and Hydrads rolls.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, I just reread the first PM that Jimmmm sent out with the description of my role.. According to it, I would get the values the player would be able to roll the following day. So, from the way it is worded, it seems that if I targeted someone with an empty supply, I would know. It also sounds like that if someone could roll both an 8-sided and 12-sided, I might not know. I am still awaiting answers from Jimmmm though.

[faust]

and another question to ponder:

why would scum!yuma claim thief after his partner has already been lynched?  I mean, people were already wanting to lynch the thief before the claim, so you would think that scum!thief would be opposed to claiming.

think about it

Because there will be a mass claim sooner or later, and he can't really claim another role, so he tries to grab the towncred?

[faust]

Okay, I just reread the first PM that Jimmmm sent out with the description of my role.. According to it, I would get the values the player would be able to roll the following day. So, from the way it is worded, it seems that if I targeted someone with an empty supply, I would know. It also sounds like that if someone could roll both an 8-sided and 12-sided, I might not know. I am still awaiting answers from Jimmmm though.

This sounds good If you get confirmation, we can clear town!PPS or catch scum!PPS.

[faust]

BA looks rather townie now. i think people on his wagon should reconsider.

[XerxesPraelor]

Why would that clear him, especially since there are roles that give people dice?? Also,

[faust]

The case on yuma/e

3. e's interactions today

Here, e states that it is "very likely" that scum is on-wagon. His reasoning for it is merely that it is possible that scum vote for their partners on D1. Well, yes, but how does this make it "very likely" that it happened here? I think e just wants to divert attention from himself.

Sure there is some motive in diverting attention away from myself.  But I am also working with the knowledge that if their weren't any scum on the wagon, then 2 of liopoil, chairs, and WW are scum.  I just don't see that being true.  Maybe one of those three are scum, but I highly doubt 2.  Then we also have the post by Voltaire saying that scum are avoiding his wagon.  In all, I think there is a ton of WIFOM in saying scum is on/off wagon because of the quicklynch.

Why can't two of lio, chairs, WW be scum? Also, how do you suggest we should find scum if not by interaction with their dead partner?

[pingpongsam]

BA looks rather townie now. i think people on his wagon should be who we look at voting for.

FTFY

[Beyond Awesome]

Why would that clear him, especially since there are roles that give people dice?? Also,

For my investigation to work, we would have to agree that no one gives PPS dice.

[faust]

BA looks rather townie now. i think people on his wagon should be who we look at voting for.

FTFY

Well, agreed, more or less. I was thinking BA is scum for some time this day, so I can understand that people have voted there.

[Hydrad]

Why would that clear him, especially since there are roles that give people dice?? Also,

For my investigation to work, we would have to agree that no one gives PPS dice.

Personally I feel that even if PPS has 0 dice you would still get 1-12

[Beyond Awesome]

Why would that clear him, especially since there are roles that give people dice?? Also,

For my investigation to work, we would have to agree that no one gives PPS dice.

Personally I feel that even if PPS has 0 dice you would still get 1-12

We will have to wait and see what Jimmmm says.

[Hydrad]

Why would that clear him, especially since there are roles that give people dice?? Also,

For my investigation to work, we would have to agree that no one gives PPS dice.

Personally I feel that even if PPS has 0 dice you would still get 1-12

We will have to wait and see what Jimmmm says.

Hopefully he answers. I've tried to get more information before on mine but he wasn't allowed to answer any of my questions

[Beyond Awesome]

In my PM, it does say that I get the results for what they are capable of rolling the following day. So, if they have 0 dice, I would imagine the result would be "nothing" as faust suggested.

[Witherweaver]

I'm having a bit of trouble seeing BA's claim as a lie.  It could simply be his entire role as scum, but I'm losing my scum feeling towards him.

BA, what is your role name?

[Witherweaver]

By the way, "goon" instead of "gone" is the worst possible scumslip argument I can imagine.  He's also not even a goon.

[Beyond Awesome]

I'm having a bit of trouble seeing BA's claim as a lie.  It could simply be his entire role as scum, but I'm losing my scum feeling towards him.

BA, what is your role name?

My role name is Arms Inspector

[2.71828.....]

Just wondering, why exactly is XP town?  There was this:

Okay, tell me if you know of a particular role. I've thought about it for the long night and trust me, this is definitely worth it. If you know about but are not the role that I'm thinking about, say so.

This seems genuine. I trust that you know what you're doing.

I know about the role you seem to be talking about.

and then after that everyone has gone all secretive as to why exactly that clears XP because they would have to claim their roles and such.

[Witherweaver]

The beastmaster thing is a much better "scumslip" argument, but I'm not sure about it here.. I believe a scum player (especially a new one) could definitely slip their role name if they're trying to project someone else as having that role.. sometimes you don't keep in your mind what's known and what isn't known.  Though it seemed as just a made up phrase to communication what possible scum roles could be.

[Witherweaver]

Can we get a vote count?

[Witherweaver]

BA, No dominion card? scummmmmyyyyyyyy...... I will catch up on everything, check the vote count, then vote for him.

Wait, what?

[Witherweaver]

Okay, Vote: Beyond Awesome. That was a scummy claim and he was scummy before it too. That is L-2

What about it was scummy?

[2.71828.....]

Vote Count 2.e

Beyond Awesome (4): chairs, 2.71828....., Hydrad, liopoil
chairs (2): mail-mi, Beyond Awesome
pingpongsam (1): Witherweaver
2.71828..... (3): faust, PPS, XP
faust (1): Ichimaru Gin
Hydrad (1): ashersky

[Witherweaver]

and another question to ponder:

why would scum!yuma claim thief after his partner has already been lynched?  I mean, people were already wanting to lynch the thief before the claim, so you would think that scum!thief would be opposed to claiming.

think about it

Because a mass claim was being pushed.  And Yuma was first on Faust's list.  Scum!Yuma not claiming would risk having to make up a role later or claim VT, both pretty risky. 

[2.71828.....]

claim VT

That would be suicide in a RMM game

[Witherweaver]

The case on yuma/e

1. The claim

PPS claims having dice "stolen" early on. yuma does not respond to this at all. I think that a town Thief would like, have some kind of reaction to the fact that someone else claims to be targeted with his power. But no, there's nothing. In the same way, he does not show any surprise at all when BA claims that his supply was attacked. He only claims after I tell him to.

Really: If I was a town Thief and a player claims to be attacked by my power, my reactions would be:
1) Wow, so scum seems to have a Redirector!
2) PPS is probably lying.

This seems information worth sharing, especially seeing that yuma was already an advocate of mass-claiming. I would definitely not just keep this to myself, also because Thief is kind of crappy as a town power and thus it doesn't matter much if outed.

One last thing: town!yuma would know he's a really good scum night kill target. It seems that if you know you're likely to be nightkilled, you wouldn't want to accumulate lots of dice that you steal from other players who are probably town as well.

The reactions to PPS saying that his dice were stolen necessitate a claim.  And that is exactly what yuma wanted to do:

I actually think a huge mass claim in terms of powers/dice/rolls/stored dice/etc could be largely beneficial to us. It would give mafia info yes. But it would allow us to best coordinate how to defeat monsters, allow us to force mafia to be more or less truthful about their dice and what they are doing with them (maybe catch them in a lie in regard to what they are doing...) and coordinate powers better that we have as town. Yes downside is mafia would know what we are doing, be better able to determine kills and the like on powerful roles as is the usual with mass claiming... But I think it is very likely worth it.

and again:

still think claiming has potential to help us, but I'll concede to the majority and let it wait for a day or two... not sure why suggesting claiming is scummy

Also, both of the responses you list are absolutely ridiculous.  For example, #1 is false since both Box and PPS claimed to have been stolen from.  I am pretty sure a redirector does not work like that.  So the evidence points to 2 dice stealing/destroying (we still don't know 100% there are two thieves) people.  And then claiming that someone is lying about having dice stolen?  Doesn't really make sense.  So no, those things are not "information worth sharing."  At least not information worth giving up your PR prematurely.

yuma posted before Box claimed, so he didn't know yet that Box's dice were stolen. And why doesn't claiming that someone is lying make sense? Scum lies.

I tend to agree with this.  Yuma should be been suspicious of PPS, or at least dropped some hints.

[Witherweaver]

claim VT

That would be suicide in a RMM game

Hence risky.

[2.71828.....]

And I do like the idea of a mass claim.  I can probably be persuaded to wait until tomorrow, but I think that yuma is completely right here:

I actually think a huge mass claim in terms of powers/dice/rolls/stored dice/etc could be largely beneficial to us. It would give mafia info yes. But it would allow us to best coordinate how to defeat monsters, allow us to force mafia to be more or less truthful about their dice and what they are doing with them (maybe catch them in a lie in regard to what they are doing...) and coordinate powers better that we have as town. Yes downside is mafia would know what we are doing, be better able to determine kills and the like on powerful roles as is the usual with mass claiming... But I think it is very likely worth it.

[Beyond Awesome]

Claiming the amount of dice we have left is stupid. That means scum will know who to target with the dice stealing ability. With me, it practically does not matter since I have almost no dice left, but a thief would want players to claim how many dice they have left and what values they have stored.

Thank you for sharing that post Yuma made. It only makes you/yuma look scummier.

[liopoil]

I thought we decided that wasn't happening. I for one do not want to claim.

BA, No dominion card? scummmmmyyyyyyyy...... I will catch up on everything, check the vote count, then vote for him.

Wait, what?

I was under the impression that the role names of players was a dominion card.

Okay, Vote: Beyond Awesome. That was a scummy claim and he was scummy before it too. That is L-2

What about it was scummy?

It was unnecessary, his role seems not to be useful, and the way he said it seemed to be just trying to get towncred. I believe his claim, but I still think he is scum because roles were assigned independent of alignment.

[Witherweaver]

I thought we decided that wasn't happening. I for one do not want to claim.

BA, No dominion card? scummmmmyyyyyyyy...... I will catch up on everything, check the vote count, then vote for him.

Wait, what?

I was under the impression that the role names of players was a dominion card.

Okay, Vote: Beyond Awesome. That was a scummy claim and he was scummy before it too. That is L-2

What about it was scummy?

It was unnecessary, his role seems not to be useful, and the way he said it seemed to be just trying to get towncred. I believe his claim, but I still think he is scum because roles were assigned independent of alignment.

Ichi's role is Priest.

[Beyond Awesome]

I find it interesting the player who puts me at L-2 was off-wagon on Volt and also had the roll of an 8 and a 6 considering what my power is.

[Beyond Awesome]

A scum player that can't roll up to 12 would want to see me dead.

[Witherweaver]

I find it interesting the player who puts me at L-2 was off-wagon on Volt and also had the roll of an 8 and a 6 considering what my power is.

Wait, you're talking about Yuma/e?  I thought he played a higher roll Day 1.  And Day 2 wasn't about high rolls, it was about spanning the entire {1,...,12} space.

[liopoil]

I thought we decided that wasn't happening. I for one do not want to claim.

BA, No dominion card? scummmmmyyyyyyyy...... I will catch up on everything, check the vote count, then vote for him.

Wait, what?

I was under the impression that the role names of players was a dominion card.

Okay, Vote: Beyond Awesome. That was a scummy claim and he was scummy before it too. That is L-2

What about it was scummy?

It was unnecessary, his role seems not to be useful, and the way he said it seemed to be just trying to get towncred. I believe his claim, but I still think he is scum because roles were assigned independent of alignment.

Ichi's role is Priest.

right, I forgot about that. But everyone else is a dominion card so far

[Beyond Awesome]

I find it interesting the player who puts me at L-2 was off-wagon on Volt and also had the roll of an 8 and a 6 considering what my power is.

Wait, you're talking about Yuma/e?  I thought he played a higher roll Day 1.  And Day 2 wasn't about high rolls, it was about spanning the entire {1,...,12} space.

No, that was lio. He put me at L-2. He rolled 8 D1 and 6 D2.

[liopoil]

I find it interesting the player who puts me at L-2 was off-wagon on Volt and also had the roll of an 8 and a 6 considering what my power is.

You've been spewing this nonsense for so long, now I'm going to respond to it. You realize that my 6 was the second best  thing I could have rolled? For all you know I rolled a 6 and a 12!

[Beyond Awesome]

I find it interesting the player who puts me at L-2 was off-wagon on Volt and also had the roll of an 8 and a 6 considering what my power is.

You've been spewing this nonsense for so long, now I'm going to respond to it. You realize that my 6 was the second best  thing I could have rolled? For all you know I rolled a 6 and a 12!

That's a valid point. But, seeing how my role works, I am obviously going to pay attention to dice rolls.

[2.71828.....]

liopoil is much townier than BA

[Witherweaver]

I find it interesting the player who puts me at L-2 was off-wagon on Volt and also had the roll of an 8 and a 6 considering what my power is.

Wait, you're talking about Yuma/e?  I thought he played a higher roll Day 1.  And Day 2 wasn't about high rolls, it was about spanning the entire {1,...,12} space.

No, that was lio. He put me at L-2. He rolled 8 D1 and 6 D2.

Lio said it, but on Day 2, 6 was basically what was needed.. almost all the higher rolls had been played already. 

[Beyond Awesome]

I find it interesting the player who puts me at L-2 was off-wagon on Volt and also had the roll of an 8 and a 6 considering what my power is.

Wait, you're talking about Yuma/e?  I thought he played a higher roll Day 1.  And Day 2 wasn't about high rolls, it was about spanning the entire {1,...,12} space.

No, that was lio. He put me at L-2. He rolled 8 D1 and 6 D2.

Lio said it, but on Day 2, 6 was basically what was needed.. almost all the higher rolls had been played already.

Yah. You're right. I still noted it though just in case.

[Beyond Awesome]

Does anyone else find out odd that e quotes a post from yuma and agreeing with the post stating we should claim how many dice we have left and what values we have stored?

[EFHW]

Vote Count 2.8

Beyond Awesome (4): chairs, 2.71828.....,  Hydrad, liopoil
chairs (2): mail-mi, Beyond Awesome
pingpongsam (1): , Witherweaver
2.71828..... (3): faust, pingpongsam, XerxesPraelor
faust (1):  Ichimaru Gin
Hydrad (1): ashersky

not voting (0):

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 9 at 11pm forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 11 at 11pm forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 64

[EFHW]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

I am down with vote: yuma.  Not so sure about vote: e though.

Technically, this is a self-vote, so you need to vote yourself now (again).  However, I am not counting it as it seems to actually just be a correction of pps's vote and yuma is not actually in the game anymore.  Vote again if you intended something else!  (it would be better to avoid voting syntax altogether unless you actually mean to vote)

[Beyond Awesome]

Hmm, interesting thing about the wagon is that 3 of the 4 people on it were off the Volt wagon, chairs, e, and lio.

I think there is a very good chance at least one scum can be found there.

[Beyond Awesome]

I meant to say that the wagon on me has 3 out of 4 people that were not on the volt wagon.

[faust]

I meant to say that the wagon on me has 3 out of 4 people that were not on the volt wagon.

That is indeed interesting.

[Hydrad]

I meant to say that the wagon on me has 3 out of 4 people that were not on the volt wagon.

Hmm i didn't notice that. out of those 3 I would most likely vote for chairs but seeing as hes VLA I guess e is my next biggest scum guess

[Beyond Awesome]

I meant to say that the wagon on me has 3 out of 4 people that were not on the volt wagon.

Hmm i didn't notice that. out of those 3 I would most likely vote for chairs but seeing as hes VLA I guess e is my next biggest scum guess

I agree with you. Chairs is still my top choice to lynch, but e claiming to be an actual thief doesn't help him much.

[2.71828.....]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

I am down with vote: yuma.  Not so sure about vote: e though.

Technically, this is a self-vote, so you need to vote yourself now (again).  However, I am not counting it as it seems to actually just be a correction of pps's vote and yuma is not actually in the game anymore.  Vote again if you intended something else!  (it would be better to avoid voting syntax altogether unless you actually mean to vote)

sorry. 
unvote for now until i catch up on the rest of the thread

[2.71828.....]

I guess there wasn't much left of the thread. so vote: BA

[ashersky]

Claimed roles...

Swindler, Thief, Priest, Arms Inspector.

One of these four is not like the other.

[Ichimaru Gin]

haha. Yeah stupid of me to pursue that "scumslip".

Some thoughts.

faust is signficantly more townie in my eyes. Even though I still disagree with his scumhunting D1, I very much support his methods today, focusing on interactions with Voltaire. Though other players seem as if they are trying to derail that, I think it's our best chance of catching actual scum.

I've already full-claimed, but do not really support a massclaim right now.

Right now, the person I find scummiest is e. So that is where I will voting. vote: e

[Ichimaru Gin]

The beastmaster thing is a much better "scumslip" argument, but I'm not sure about it here.. I believe a scum player (especially a new one) could definitely slip their role name if they're trying to project someone else as having that role.. sometimes you don't keep in your mind what's known and what isn't known.  Though it seemed as just a made up phrase to communication what possible scum roles could be.

Better than a non-existent one basically. I think the hydrad scumslip argument sucks.

[Witherweaver]

Claimed roles...

Swindler, Thief, Priest, Arms Inspector.

One of these four is not like the other.

Well, good point.  Maybe claim flavor names?

I think the first game had Dominion card names and noncard names.

[liopoil]

Claimed roles...

Swindler, Thief, Priest, Arms Inspector.

One of these four is not like the other.

Well, good point.  Maybe claim flavor names?

I think the first game had Dominion card names and noncard names.

wouldn't that out all the VTs as VT?

[Witherweaver]

I'm not sure, actually.  Last game I think VTs had flavor names.

[Hydrad]

BoxOfDog has been killed. He was a Vanilla Townie.

Looks like there is just normal vanilla townies in this one

[2.71828.....]

Claimed roles...

Swindler, Thief, Priest, Arms Inspector.

One of these four is not like the other.

Well, good point.  Maybe claim flavor names?

I think the first game had Dominion card names and noncard names.

wouldn't that out all the VTs as VT?

THIS IS RMM.  EVERYONE HAS A ROLE

[Hydrad]

THIS IS RMM.  EVERYONE HAS A ROLE

doesn't look like it. unless vanilla townie did something else?

[liopoil]

Claimed roles...

Swindler, Thief, Priest, Arms Inspector.

One of these four is not like the other.

Well, good point.  Maybe claim flavor names?

I think the first game had Dominion card names and noncard names.

wouldn't that out all the VTs as VT?

THIS IS RMM.  EVERYONE HAS A ROLE

...except BoxOfDog? Jimmmmm also confirmed there is at least one player without a role in the second post.

[ashersky]

THIS IS RMM.  EVERYONE HAS A ROLE

Now we know that you are scum or a town PR.

[Hydrad]

THIS IS RMM.  EVERYONE HAS A ROLE

Now we know that you are scum or a town PR.

Don't we already know what he is?

[liopoil]

THIS IS RMM.  EVERYONE HAS A ROLE

Now we know that you are scum or a town PR.

he already claimed... Have you read the thread?

[2.71828.....]

Claimed roles...

Swindler, Thief, Priest, Arms Inspector.

One of these four is not like the other.

Well, good point.  Maybe claim flavor names?

I think the first game had Dominion card names and noncard names.

wouldn't that out all the VTs as VT?

THIS IS RMM.  EVERYONE HAS A ROLE

...except BoxOfDog? Jimmmmm also confirmed there is at least one player without a role in the second post.

oh.  yeah i missed that. 

and of course i have a role.  I am the thief

[2.71828.....]

and the box kill- i just focused in on the fact that he was town.  kind of forgot about him just being a VT


but if Jimmmm said one person doesnt have a role, then we have found that person.  kind of opportunistic of scum to kill him

[Hydrad]

and the box kill- i just focused in on the fact that he was town.  kind of forgot about him just being a VT


but if Jimmmm said one person doesnt have a role, then we have found that person.  kind of opportunistic of scum to kill him

I think Jimm said at least one person will be VT. so there could be more

[2.71828.....]

At least one player has a role related to the dice and/or fighting the Monsters. At least one player does not. If you do not have a specific role, do not fear! There is still plenty for you to do. There may or may not be traditional Mafia roles.

I definitely just skimmed over that part when I was reading.  I don't think it changes anything really.

[Hydrad]

At least one player has a role related to the dice and/or fighting the Monsters. At least one player does not. If you do not have a specific role, do not fear! There is still plenty for you to do. There may or may not be traditional Mafia roles.

I definitely just skimmed over that part when I was reading.  I don't think it changes anything really.

Ya i feel like there might be 1 other VT out there if any. I highly doubt there are 2 or more still alive

[pingpongsam]

THIS IS RMM.  EVERYONE HAS A ROLE

Now we know that you are scum or a town PR.

This could be a scum slip. Scum wants this type of info at night to make their NK decision but it is basically irrelevant during the day since it's more about lining up the mislynch and any reason will do. Forgetting that a specific person has claimed a role and that pages of discussion surrounds it is something a town mind should be infinitely less apt to do than the scum mind.

[ashersky]

THIS IS RMM.  EVERYONE HAS A ROLE

Now we know that you are scum or a town PR.

This could be a scum slip. Scum wants this type of info at night to make their NK decision but it is basically irrelevant during the day since it's more about lining up the mislynch and any reason will do. Forgetting that a specific person has claimed a role and that pages of discussion surrounds it is something a town mind should be infinitely less apt to do than the scum mind.

Yep, I'm scum, you caught me.  Lynch me now.

[2.71828.....]

THIS IS RMM.  EVERYONE HAS A ROLE

Now we know that you are scum or a town PR.

This could be a scum slip. Scum wants this type of info at night to make their NK decision but it is basically irrelevant during the day since it's more about lining up the mislynch and any reason will do. Forgetting that a specific person has claimed a role and that pages of discussion surrounds it is something a town mind should be infinitely less apt to do than the scum mind.

Yep, I'm scum, you caught me.  Lynch me now.

Really?  awesome.  vote: ashersky

But seriously.  Why has the word "scumslip" come up so much in this game?  It defies logic. 

Oh well.  Back to the real scum.  vote: BA

[ashersky]

What's the actual "case" on BA?

I think his claim is scummy and quite possibly fake, so I can see lynching him for that.  I don't see what the big deal was before that.

I think liopoil is obv!scum, hydrad scumslipped into scum, and BA fakeclaimed himself as scum.  I think PPS has been super scummy in defense of scummy players.  Obviously that can't all be right, and town sometimes seems scummy, of course, but those are pretty strong reads.

I've felt BA has been pretty normal newbie for most of this game, until he claimed without pressure with a really crappy fake role.

[2.71828.....]

In other news: mail-mi is online!

my question: when is your camping trip thing that is supposed to take all week?  because if you leave tomorrow, you should be back in time for D3 (you may miss the first bit of the day but that should be all right).  I know it is a terrible position to be in, but mcmc managed to leave chocolate factory for a long time and come back.  (scum did win that game though)

[mail-mi]

In other news: mail-mi is online!

my question: when is your camping trip thing that is supposed to take all week?  because if you leave tomorrow, you should be back in time for D3 (you may miss the first bit of the day but that should be all right).  I know it is a terrible position to be in, but mcmc managed to leave chocolate factory for a long time and come back.  (scum did win that game though)

not sure if allowed to post after /outing...

[ashersky]

In other news: mail-mi is online!

my question: when is your camping trip thing that is supposed to take all week?  because if you leave tomorrow, you should be back in time for D3 (you may miss the first bit of the day but that should be all right).  I know it is a terrible position to be in, but mcmc managed to leave chocolate factory for a long time and come back.  (scum did win that game though)

Who are you talking to?

[liopoil]

judging by his posts in the Mafia game index, he hasn't found a replacement yet, so just assume that you're playing I think.

[2.71828.....]

judging by his posts in the Mafia game index, he hasn't found a replacement yet, so just assume that you're playing I think.

thats what I thought too.  I apologize if I was wrong.  I just assumed you [mail-mi] would be considered playing until a replacement is found. 

[mail-mi]

judging by his posts in the Mafia game index, he hasn't found a replacement yet, so just assume that you're playing I think.

thats what I thought too.  I apologize if I was wrong.  I just assumed you [mail-mi] would be considered playing until a replacement is found.

i don't know. i assumed that i was done playing after i /outed, thats why i wasn't posting

[pingpongsam]

What's the actual "case" on BA?

I think his claim is scummy and quite possibly fake, so I can see lynching him for that.  I don't see what the big deal was before that.

I think liopoil is obv!scum, hydrad scumslipped into scum, and BA fakeclaimed himself as scum.  I think PPS has been super scummy in defense of scummy players.  Obviously that can't all be right, and town sometimes seems scummy, of course, but those are pretty strong reads.

I've felt BA has been pretty normal newbie for most of this game, until he claimed without pressure with a really crappy fake role.

Show me where I defended Voltaire. He is the only proven scum. People are not scummy just because you say they are. The scum slip bit was pure humor but still true. Now we have 3 scum slips so at least 1 is sure to be proven wrong. Historically, when ash says he is scum in jest he is scum in truth.

[ashersky]

What's the actual "case" on BA?

I think his claim is scummy and quite possibly fake, so I can see lynching him for that.  I don't see what the big deal was before that.

I think liopoil is obv!scum, hydrad scumslipped into scum, and BA fakeclaimed himself as scum.  I think PPS has been super scummy in defense of scummy players.  Obviously that can't all be right, and town sometimes seems scummy, of course, but those are pretty strong reads.

I've felt BA has been pretty normal newbie for most of this game, until he claimed without pressure with a really crappy fake role.

Show me where I defended Voltaire. He is the only proven scum. People are not scummy just because you say they are. The scum slip bit was pure humor but still true. Now we have 3 scum slips so at least 1 is sure to be proven wrong. Historically, when ash says he is scum in jest he is scum in truth.

Show me where I said you defended Voltaire.

[pingpongsam]

The bit about defending scummy players. Voltaire is the only proven scummy player. I reiterate, just because you say someone is scummy does not make it so.

[pingpongsam]

There are at this point exactly 2 players I have yet to defend. I am not certain they are scum but I will be surprised if they are not.

[Jimmmmm]

Due to the delay in finding a replacement for mail-mi, I will extend Today's deadline by an appropriate amount when the issue is resolved.

[Beyond Awesome]

Jimmm got back to my questions. I am afraid he was mostly cryptic, but as far as investigating PPS goes like faust wants, Jimmm states I will receive the value they were able to roll if they did have dice even if they do not have dice.

[Hydrad]

Jimmm got back to my questions. I am afraid he was mostly cryptic, but as far as investigating PPS goes like faust wants, Jimmm states I will receive the value they were able to roll if they did have dice even if they do not have dice.

Ya I thought so. thats unfortunate

[Hydrad]

So if you can't inspect PPS what should we do with your power?

[Beyond Awesome]

So if you can't inspect PPS what should we do with your power?

Target a player that has seemed scummy the entire game. I have some candidates in mind.

[ashersky]

Why is anyone acting like BA's claim is sensible?

Unless someone can prove that people can roll anything other than 12-sided dice AND it's indicative of alignment, this is all moot.

[Hydrad]

Why is anyone acting like BA's claim is sensible?

Unless someone can prove that people can roll anything other than 12-sided dice AND it's indicative of alignment, this is all moot.

Honestly I kinda believe that is his power but I can't find a way that it is useful at all. I doubt anyone doesn't have a 12 sided dice. I still kinda feel hes scum even if hes telling the truth about his role

[Beyond Awesome]

Why is anyone acting like BA's claim is sensible?

Unless someone can prove that people can roll anything other than 12-sided dice AND it's indicative of alignment, this is all moot.

I am about 99.9% positive that Ash is scum. One thing that he claims to like to do is push for the mislynch. The first vote on D1 was Ash voting for me. He is pushing for my mislynch, and I am positive this is something scum Ash would do. I know this is my first game with him, but regardless, I am super, super positive that he is scum at this point.

[Beyond Awesome]

Oh, and just to let everyone know, someone had mentioned the previous dice game, so I read up on it, and looked at the scum QT to get an idea as to how scum would act in this game. Ash was scum that game, and he is acting very similar in this game as he did in that game. He even made a point with his scum partners about heavily pushing the mislynch. I am onto you Ash. I know what you are doing.

[Beyond Awesome]

Sorry meant to say the first vote on D2 was from Ash. He has been setting me up for the mislynch all along.

[ashersky]

Sorry meant to say the first vote on D2 was from Ash. He has been setting me up for the mislynch all along.

Dude, chill.

[Beyond Awesome]

I would like to make a proposal. I strongly believe that Ash is scum as you can tell from my above posts.

I propose the following for today:

Either we lynch Ash, but if you guys aren't we convinced, we lynch me instead. I honestly don't mind because I am fairly certain that Ash is scum and as town, we are winning, so I don't mind making the sacrifice.

But, for those that do vote for me to get lynched, I want you guys to make a promise to me that when I do flip town that you will lynch the crap out of Ash. Don't even let him claim. Just hammer him like he did with his partner.

[ashersky]

I'd note that I explained my vote on you at the beginning of the day.  I'd also note I've explained a basic town read on you the ENTIRE GAME until your ridiculous claim.

Stop overreacting man.  If you were actually town, it'd really not serve you well.  If you are scum, it definitely isn't serving you well.

If you've read enough of my games, you'll find that I'm generally always town (grand majority of the time), that I'm generally always misread as scum, and that I ALWAYS love being mislynched so I can scream I told you so over and over and be generally assholish as long as possible about it.

PPE:  I'm happy to be lynched, as mentioned.  I'm still not pushing for your lynch, which is why your behavior is so odd.  Why not attack someone who actually wants to lynch you?

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, assuming that you are town Ash, what is your opinion of chairs? Do you feel he should be lynched? If not, why?

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, guys, sorry for the craziness earlier. To be honest, ever since I claimed, I have been worried of getting NK'd. I might not be a true cop, but I do believe there is a scum player that can't roll up to 12. And, I think there is a reasonable chance that I know who scum is, and they probably know that I likely know who they are. So, a lot of my posting is me coming from the perspective that I probably won't make it D3 anyway which is why I am probably overreacting a little.

[Hydrad]

unvote

While my suspicions for BA being scum is still there he's starting to look more townie.

Personally I want to vote for chairs but what's the curtosy when someone's vla am I allowed to vote for them or do I wait?

[Witherweaver]

Why does Chairs keep coming up?  Does anyone have an actual case against him?

[Beyond Awesome]

Why does Chairs keep coming up?  Does anyone have an actual case against him?

Yes, he was super lurky even before he was vla.

[Beyond Awesome]

He is also one of the 3 out of 4 players that are on my wagon, but were not on Volt's. It's not much, but it is something.

[ashersky]

Okay, assuming that you are town Ash, what is your opinion of chairs? Do you feel he should be lynched? If not, why?

Chairs is middle-of-the-road for me.  Too lurky, doesn't stick out in my mind at all.  Basically a good place for scum to sit.

Why is no one interested in liopoil?

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, assuming that you are town Ash, what is your opinion of chairs? Do you feel he should be lynched? If not, why?

Chairs is middle-of-the-road for me.  Too lurky, doesn't stick out in my mind at all.  Basically a good place for scum to sit.

Why is no one interested in liopoil?

I am doing a reread on lio right now.

[XerxesPraelor]

I reiterate, just because you say someone is scummy does not make it so.

Policy vote: PPS

Also, Hydrad is acting like BA's scumpartner.

[faust]

What's the actual "case" on BA?

I think his claim is scummy and quite possibly fake, so I can see lynching him for that.  I don't see what the big deal was before that.

I think liopoil is obv!scum, hydrad scumslipped into scum, and BA fakeclaimed himself as scum.  I think PPS has been super scummy in defense of scummy players.  Obviously that can't all be right, and town sometimes seems scummy, of course, but those are pretty strong reads.

I've felt BA has been pretty normal newbie for most of this game, until he claimed without pressure with a really crappy fake role.

Nothing about e? What do you think about e?

[faust]

Okay, assuming that you are town Ash, what is your opinion of chairs? Do you feel he should be lynched? If not, why?

Chairs is middle-of-the-road for me.  Too lurky, doesn't stick out in my mind at all.  Basically a good place for scum to sit.

Why is no one interested in liopoil?

liopoil is unlikely to be scum, and if he is, we want to lynch his partner first.

[faust]

ashersky sounds really off this game, but I'm not sure that makes him scum. And since there is no actual case against him, I prefer e.

[ashersky]

What's the actual "case" on BA?

I think his claim is scummy and quite possibly fake, so I can see lynching him for that.  I don't see what the big deal was before that.

I think liopoil is obv!scum, hydrad scumslipped into scum, and BA fakeclaimed himself as scum.  I think PPS has been super scummy in defense of scummy players.  Obviously that can't all be right, and town sometimes seems scummy, of course, but those are pretty strong reads.

I've felt BA has been pretty normal newbie for most of this game, until he claimed without pressure with a really crappy fake role.

I had a townish read on yuma, I think.  I don't really recall.  This long weekend really threw off the pace of the game for me.  I suppose I can do a quick yuma re-read.

Nothing about e? What do you think about e?

[ashersky]

What's the actual "case" on BA?

I think his claim is scummy and quite possibly fake, so I can see lynching him for that.  I don't see what the big deal was before that.

I think liopoil is obv!scum, hydrad scumslipped into scum, and BA fakeclaimed himself as scum.  I think PPS has been super scummy in defense of scummy players.  Obviously that can't all be right, and town sometimes seems scummy, of course, but those are pretty strong reads.

I've felt BA has been pretty normal newbie for most of this game, until he claimed without pressure with a really crappy fake role.

Nothing about e? What do you think about e?

I had a townish read on yuma, I think.  I don't really recall.  This long weekend really threw off the pace of the game for me.  I suppose I can do a quick yuma re-read.

[ashersky]

Re-read yuma.  Towny.

[faust]

Re-read yuma.  Towny.

Reasons?

[ashersky]

Re-read yuma.  Towny.

Reasons?

Argued for mass claim early.  That's a town Yuma thing.  His catch up post read well.  Little interaction with Volt -- which I think scum!yuma would normally avoid.

He's prone to gambits in RMM.  I saw none of that here.  I think scum!yuma claims something early instead of advocating for a mass claim, especially given his recent town history.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, so I have done a full re-read which took me a few hours!!! Whew!

chairs is the master lurker. He rarely seems to say anything, but on post 348, he claims he is very intrigued and thinks that I am scum and that I can't use the reroll power on myself and only rolled one die getting a 12. He also claims he is trying to decide if either I or Ichi are better lynch candidates in a very opportunistic manner. He also states concerns over yuma and votes and then unvotes yuma. On post 655 he says that he doesn't get why there is a wagon on Volt. Ironically, on D2, he plays a 1!

On post 903 chairs votes for me without giving reason. Then, on post 909 he analyzes my wagon and says "let's assume at least one is mafia" Of course, he claims to be town. He states Hydrad is null and the other two are town which was XP and WW at the time. On post 925 chairs says he is against claiming.

Okay guys, based off all of this, I am pretty certain chairs is scum. Top lynch candidate.

****

Ash opens the game playing a 9 with no explanation. Ash is the first one to cast suspicion onto PPS for having his dice stolen on post 97 claiming that it could have been a ploy by scum mates. Ash is also the first player to cast suspicion on mail-mi for not rolling and pushes for him to be lynched D1. On post 542 Ash claims that he is voting for lio because he thinks volt is partner coaching him. But, I am not sure what Ash is talking about here. Then, on post 546, he accuses liopoli of having a calm and collected post which he states makes lio look like scum after lio states he feels like Volt is pushing for a lynch against him. Then, lio claims that he finds volts low roll scummier than Ichi's and Ash votes for lio. Then, on post 667, Ash surprise hammers Volt.

On post 701 on D2 after my dice are stolen, Ash comes out and votes for me saying that I am scum. On post 919, PPS is against mass claiming today but suggests it tomorrow and also shows some confidence that Ash is likely scum.  On post 923, Ash comes out and says PPS and lio are the scum team and says what PPS is doing is what scum PPS does. On post 927, Ash says he never thought I was scum but voted for me to see who would be on my wagon. He says this of course after my wagon had died down. On post 940 Ash claims to have quickhammered volt to see what happened. Ash says he expected scum to play up Ash would quickhammer his partner. This is in response to PPS seeing him as scum and voting Ash. This is probably Ash's towniest post so far. 

On post 948, Ash says he finds nothing townie in PPS putting Volt at L-1 and that PPS had been avoiding Volt all day. On post 950, Ash claims that he usually pushes the mislynch as scum and usually succeeds. On post 988, Ash says he finds mail-mi's actions anti-town by not rolling D1 and also by getting attacked D2 and rolling as if mail-mi knew what would happen with the monster attack.

On post 1338, Ash votes Hydrad and later states the reason why is that Hydrad says beastmaster which must be a scum slip. On post 1364, Ash really pushes the beast master thing, convinced that Hydrad is scum. On post 1400, after I claim, Ash says my power sounds odd and made up. On post 1521, Ash says he is scum and that he is caught, obviously in a sarcastic manner, but still... 1523, Ash says he feels that I have been behaving like a newbie to mafia except that he thinks I claimed a fake roll.

My overall impression is that Ash can be pretty erratic, but there is a level of townness to the way he plays. There is a chance he is scum, but not as strong as I believed before.

*****

For lio, he doesn't say anything to really give me a reading on him one way or another. D1 Volt votes for him randomly it seems and claims he tried to stop XP from becoming a town consensuses. Then, yuma follows up with a vote against lio. Then, on post 354 volt states "Better than spending time on IG right now would be spending time on Box, lio, or BA." On post 398, lio asks for more info about Mail-Mi's dice power that might help a thief. On post 531, lio states that in terms of low rollers he finds Volt scummier than Ichi and then ASH votes for lio right after. A couple of posts later Volt says he likes lio and Ichi for lynch candidates.

Then, in post 545 lio claims that he feels like Volt is pushing for a lynch to see if there is any interest. In the post after, Ash calls lios post super scummy and too calm and collected. After that, more people vote for lio and lio shows his frustration that people are voting for him without giving any reasons. On post 598, lio seems to oppose the idea of a mass claim.

On post 954 lio agrees with Ash that the way PPS put Volt at L-1 is null at best. On post 961, lio votes PPS and offers a lengthy discussion as to why he finds him scummy. On post 974, lio asks faust to confirm that he was the one to target faust, but asks that faust not say what lio's ability is. On post 1132, lio suggests after the monster is defeated that maybe other players should roll as well just in case scum tries something.

On post 1142, lio finds chairs 1 to be scummy. He also states PPS seems scummy. Mail-Mi, Ash, and me, he finds to be scummy, but to a lesser extent. On post 1283, he asks why aren't more people voting PPS. He also states faust has played pro-town this game. On post 1303, lio argues with Ichi giving reasons as to why he finds faust town. On post 1305, lio is pushing for more people to vote PPS. On post 1312, lio opposes a mass claim idea from Hydrad. On post 1434, lio says he finds my claim to be scummy and puts me at L-2.

Overall, I am finding lio townie.

*****

e/yuma doesn't seem to post anything to incriminating to start with D1 until post 505 when he proposes a mass claim, not just of roles, but also of how many dice people have, the dice values they have stored, and their roles. He wants all the info he can get his hands on. Then, on post 577 he switches his vote to PPS after PPS accuses Ash of scumbussing lio. But, on post 644, he makes a long, townish post. On post 956, he tells PPS that he is surprised that he is surprised that PPS has a town read on him rather than null. On post 960 yuma claims he is the thief and targeted Box. Box did have those dice go missing so it is very much possible this is what he did. On post 964, yuma shows more interest in mass claiming.

On post 1097, e analyzes Volt's wagon calling out all the players he finds towny. On post 1139, e presents his reading pretty much finding me scummy but everyone else pretty null or in some instances slightly scum.  On post 1165, e says he is going to roll just so he can store a die for a later date. On post 1197, e says he thinks it is likely that scum was on volt's wagon because of how quickly he got quick hammered, not giving scum enough time to unvote.

On post 1253, e does not want to go with faust's plan of stealing from PPS to confirm him town for various reasons. On post 1270, he tries to get some info on faust and better figure out his role and then votes faust his next post. On post 1335, e claims to do a reread of lio and can't find anything really scummy about him and continues his vote against me. On post 1352, e comes to Hydrads defense and says beast master sounds like a word hydrad made up and was likely not a scum slip. On post 1426, e comes to my defense after I claim and states that he sees how my role has the potential to be like a cop.

And, overall, I find e townie as well.

****

So, that really leaves us with one good lynch candidate for D2 and that's chairs.

So, again Vote: Chairs even though I was already voting for him.

[Beyond Awesome]

I would say the case against chairs is very strong. What is most damming are his actions on D2. First, he rolls the 1 which I think is him saying he gives up and then him saying that there is likely at least one scum on my early wagon that popped up after I told everyone I had my dice stolen. Then, there is the whole thing about him saying he doesn't get the volt wagon at all. Plus, it seems like he was trying to push for mislynches.

Then, there is his lurking.

Honestly, we have not seen one town-like thing from chairs this entire game. How is he not scum?

[Beyond Awesome]

Hrm.  As a townread of mine, that interests me.  There are currently 4 people on the BA wagon.  Let's assume at least 1 is Mafia.

chairs - I'm as Town as furniture can be.
Hydrad - Newbie Mafia? Newbie Town? Null read for me, other than a strong urge to request that he get off my lawn. 
Witherweaver - Is literally always Mafia... so probably Town.
XerxesPraelor - I feel pretty strongly Town on this one.

Here is the post where chairs says we should assume that at least one person is mafia on my early D2 wagon.

[XerxesPraelor]

I would say the case against chairs is very strong. What is most damming are his actions on D2. First, he rolls the 1 which I think is him saying he gives up and then him saying that there is likely at least one scum on my early wagon that popped up after I told everyone I had my dice stolen. Then, there is the whole thing about him saying he doesn't get the volt wagon at all. Plus, it seems like he was trying to push for mislynches.

Then, there is his lurking.

Honestly, we have not seen one town-like thing from chairs this entire game. How is he not scum?

We wanted him to play the 1 - he's towny for playing it, not scummy.

[2.71828.....]

yeah, the 1 roll by chairs is a not scummy.  At that point he could only roll a 1,2, or 4.  I mean, rolling dice is a random thing.  I think it is pretty towny that he actually was able to play a die, scum might very well have tried to play off some bad luck that he missed all of those numbers.

[Witherweaver]

So, if the "Beasmaster" thing is a scumslip of someone's actual roles, why does Ash also argue that not having a Dominion card name for a role must be a lie as well?  Those two can't be compatible. 

[faust]

First, let me say that I like it when people put effort into their game and actually reread, even though it's long and tedious work.

Okay, so I have done a full re-read which took me a few hours!!! Whew!

chairs is the master lurker. He rarely seems to say anything, but on post 348, he claims he is very intrigued and thinks that I am scum and that I can't use the reroll power on myself and only rolled one die getting a 12. He also claims he is trying to decide if either I or Ichi are better lynch candidates in a very opportunistic manner. He also states concerns over yuma and votes and then unvotes yuma. On post 655 he says that he doesn't get why there is a wagon on Volt. Ironically, on D2, he plays a 1!

On post 903 chairs votes for me without giving reason. Then, on post 909 he analyzes my wagon and says "let's assume at least one is mafia" Of course, he claims to be town. He states Hydrad is null and the other two are town which was XP and WW at the time. On post 925 chairs says he is against claiming.

Okay guys, based off all of this, I am pretty certain chairs is scum. Top lynch candidate.

I don't quite understand. You're listing lots of things that chairs did, but you don't really say which of them are scummy and why. Sure, not being on the Voltaire wagon is slight indication for scum. Playing a 1 isn't, it was like the second best thing to play at this point in the game. Yes, he's lurking, but that's what he does regardless of alignment. And that's the whole case, or at least, I don't see what about the other things you list is scummy. So I'm wholly unconvinced by this case. Plus, chairs is like an easy person to jump for his recent VLA-ness.

Ash opens the game playing a 9 with no explanation. Ash is the first one to cast suspicion onto PPS for having his dice stolen on post 97 claiming that it could have been a ploy by scum mates. Ash is also the first player to cast suspicion on mail-mi for not rolling and pushes for him to be lynched D1. On post 542 Ash claims that he is voting for lio because he thinks volt is partner coaching him. But, I am not sure what Ash is talking about here. Then, on post 546, he accuses liopoli of having a calm and collected post which he states makes lio look like scum after lio states he feels like Volt is pushing for a lynch against him. Then, lio claims that he finds volts low roll scummier than Ichi's and Ash votes for lio. Then, on post 667, Ash surprise hammers Volt.

On post 701 on D2 after my dice are stolen, Ash comes out and votes for me saying that I am scum. On post 919, PPS is against mass claiming today but suggests it tomorrow and also shows some confidence that Ash is likely scum.  On post 923, Ash comes out and says PPS and lio are the scum team and says what PPS is doing is what scum PPS does. On post 927, Ash says he never thought I was scum but voted for me to see who would be on my wagon. He says this of course after my wagon had died down. On post 940 Ash claims to have quickhammered volt to see what happened. Ash says he expected scum to play up Ash would quickhammer his partner. This is in response to PPS seeing him as scum and voting Ash. This is probably Ash's towniest post so far. 

On post 948, Ash says he finds nothing townie in PPS putting Volt at L-1 and that PPS had been avoiding Volt all day. On post 950, Ash claims that he usually pushes the mislynch as scum and usually succeeds. On post 988, Ash says he finds mail-mi's actions anti-town by not rolling D1 and also by getting attacked D2 and rolling as if mail-mi knew what would happen with the monster attack.

On post 1338, Ash votes Hydrad and later states the reason why is that Hydrad says beastmaster which must be a scum slip. On post 1364, Ash really pushes the beast master thing, convinced that Hydrad is scum. On post 1400, after I claim, Ash says my power sounds odd and made up. On post 1521, Ash says he is scum and that he is caught, obviously in a sarcastic manner, but still... 1523, Ash says he feels that I have been behaving like a newbie to mafia except that he thinks I claimed a fake roll.

My overall impression is that Ash can be pretty erratic, but there is a level of townness to the way he plays. There is a chance he is scum, but not as strong as I believed before.

Again here, while I mostly agree with your read, it is hard for me to see where it comes from. There's only one thing you name as specifically towny, the rest is just description.

For lio, he doesn't say anything to really give me a reading on him one way or another. D1 Volt votes for him randomly it seems and claims he tried to stop XP from becoming a town consensuses. Then, yuma follows up with a vote against lio. Then, on post 354 volt states "Better than spending time on IG right now would be spending time on Box, lio, or BA." On post 398, lio asks for more info about Mail-Mi's dice power that might help a thief. On post 531, lio states that in terms of low rollers he finds Volt scummier than Ichi and then ASH votes for lio right after. A couple of posts later Volt says he likes lio and Ichi for lynch candidates.

Then, in post 545 lio claims that he feels like Volt is pushing for a lynch to see if there is any interest. In the post after, Ash calls lios post super scummy and too calm and collected. After that, more people vote for lio and lio shows his frustration that people are voting for him without giving any reasons. On post 598, lio seems to oppose the idea of a mass claim.

On post 954 lio agrees with Ash that the way PPS put Volt at L-1 is null at best. On post 961, lio votes PPS and offers a lengthy discussion as to why he finds him scummy. On post 974, lio asks faust to confirm that he was the one to target faust, but asks that faust not say what lio's ability is. On post 1132, lio suggests after the monster is defeated that maybe other players should roll as well just in case scum tries something.

On post 1142, lio finds chairs 1 to be scummy. He also states PPS seems scummy. Mail-Mi, Ash, and me, he finds to be scummy, but to a lesser extent. On post 1283, he asks why aren't more people voting PPS. He also states faust has played pro-town this game. On post 1303, lio argues with Ichi giving reasons as to why he finds faust town. On post 1305, lio is pushing for more people to vote PPS. On post 1312, lio opposes a mass claim idea from Hydrad. On post 1434, lio says he finds my claim to be scummy and puts me at L-2.

Overall, I am finding lio townie.

You open the post saying lio doesn't give you something to read him and end with a town read. I guess that's normal reread process, but it sounds a little strange.

e/yuma doesn't seem to post anything to incriminating to start with D1 until post 505 when he proposes a mass claim, not just of roles, but also of how many dice people have, the dice values they have stored, and their roles. He wants all the info he can get his hands on. Then, on post 577 he switches his vote to PPS after PPS accuses Ash of scumbussing lio. But, on post 644, he makes a long, townish post. On post 956, he tells PPS that he is surprised that he is surprised that PPS has a town read on him rather than null. On post 960 yuma claims he is the thief and targeted Box. Box did have those dice go missing so it is very much possible this is what he did. On post 964, yuma shows more interest in mass claiming.

On post 1097, e analyzes Volt's wagon calling out all the players he finds towny. On post 1139, e presents his reading pretty much finding me scummy but everyone else pretty null or in some instances slightly scum.  On post 1165, e says he is going to roll just so he can store a die for a later date. On post 1197, e says he thinks it is likely that scum was on volt's wagon because of how quickly he got quick hammered, not giving scum enough time to unvote.

On post 1253, e does not want to go with faust's plan of stealing from PPS to confirm him town for various reasons no reasons at all. On post 1270, he tries to get some info on faust and better figure out his role so he knows if he's a good NK target and then votes faust his next post. On post 1335, e claims to do a reread of lio and can't find anything really scummy about him and continues his vote against me. On post 1352, e comes to Hydrads defense and says beast master sounds like a word hydrad made up and was likely not a scum slip. On post 1426, e comes to my defense after I claim and states that he sees how my role has the potential to be like a cop while ironically he completely ignored the potential of his own role before.

And, overall, I find e townie as well.

Made some fixes.

Seriously, I can understand that yuma seems townish to people. He's the kind of expert player who does that. But I can't really see how people can find e's posts townie.

So, that really leaves us with one good lynch candidate for D2 and that's chairs.

So, again Vote: Chairs even though I was already voting for him.

What about all the other people? Why did you choose exactly these players for your reread?

[Witherweaver]

He is also one of the 3 out of 4 players that are on my wagon, but were not on Volt's. It's not much, but it is something.

That's motivation for you, I see, but the rest of us can't assume you're town.

[faust]

So, if the "Beasmaster" thing is a scumslip of someone's actual roles, why does Ash also argue that not having a Dominion card name for a role must be a lie as well?  Those two can't be compatible.

Good point. But of course there's also the fact that Priest isn't a Dominion card as well, so I'm guessing ash is just confused.

[faust]

He is also one of the 3 out of 4 players that are on my wagon, but were not on Volt's. It's not much, but it is something.

That's motivation for you, I see, but the rest of us can't assume you're town.

Aren't you suspicious of the company you're in though?

[2.71828.....]

So, if the "Beasmaster" thing is a scumslip of someone's actual roles, why does Ash also argue that not having a Dominion card name for a role must be a lie as well?  Those two can't be compatible.

I think the "dominion card" thing is actually not a thing.  although it may give us insight into what Ash's role name is, because he probably has a dominion card.  I think the only reason there is some overlap is because we are a town out on a quest to find the Loyalty Stone.  And since we are a town we have standard town jobs.

Thief, swindler, priest, arms inspector
I wouldn't be surprised to find more role names such as:
Innkeeper
Jester
Smithy
Scout
Ambassador
Cutpurse
herbalist
alchemist
Peddler
fortune teller
beggar
sage
hermit
doctor
butcher


So as you can see these Dominion cards could all very well be roles (some more likely than others) as they all would have some sort of job/function in an ordinary town.

PPE: 4

[faust]

Why is everyone acting so scummy? You can't all be scum!

[Witherweaver]

He is also one of the 3 out of 4 players that are on my wagon, but were not on Volt's. It's not much, but it is something.

That's motivation for you, I see, but the rest of us can't assume you're town.

Aren't you suspicious of the company you're in though?

My point was, if he's town, someone voting for him makes that person more suspicious to him, but to us it will not.

My company would be being off the Volt wagon?  I'm suspicious of Yuma/e.  I had a reason for thinking Lio was town in my reread.. something with how he had interacted with Volt.. Chairs I don't see anything that makes me think he's scum, other than him being off the Volt wagon itself.

[2.71828.....]

On post 1426, e comes to my defense after I claim and states that he sees how my role has the potential to be like a cop.

1426 is nowhere near as strong as you state it to be.

Since the standard is 12, I think he may actually have a bit of a function as a cop, but not enough to where if he came back with a different result I would rush to vote that player.  It is entirely possible that a town member only rolls a 10 sided dice or something and scum can roll a 14 sided dice.  We just don't know.

As far as if this claim is actually a fake claim or a real claim.  I am not sure.  One point that I would make is that he is extremely overestimating his power in saying that he is "the closest thing that we have to a cop."  But I don't know if that is scum trying to say "I am powerful so don't lynch me" or just town who overestimates the power of his role

Maybe I was a little unclear in this post.  I do say that you "may have a bit of a function as a cop."  Cop is probably not the right word there.  Because my next sentence says that we would have no real way to verify if your result was on a town or scum.  Then I say how you are vastly overestimating your own power in thinking that you can catch scum because you think (unverifiably so) that scum will roll a different range of dice than town.  Now PPS has stated that his role changes the range of dice that a player can roll.  So it even more invalidates that your role has a function as a cop.

[2.71828.....]

Why is everyone acting so scummy? You can't all be scum!

I think everyone is acting quite townie actually.  I am not getting super strong reads anywhere

[2.71828.....]

Why is everyone acting so scummy? You can't all be scum!

I think everyone is acting quite townie actually.  I am not getting super strong reads anywhere

except I am getting some strong town reads.  Like I think Ichi is town.

[faust]

Why is everyone acting so scummy? You can't all be scum!

I think everyone is acting quite townie actually.  I am not getting super strong reads anywhere

Well, it's hard to get strong scum reads as scum.

[2.71828.....]

Why is everyone acting so scummy? You can't all be scum!

I think everyone is acting quite townie actually.  I am not getting super strong reads anywhere

Well, it's hard to get strong scum reads as scum.

I would think it is easier to have strong reads as scum, since you know all the information already.  It is town who are uncertain.

[faust]

If I weren't already, vote: e for talking in platitudes.

[Hydrad]

One thing I'm seeing as it looks like BA is also newish is that both of us feel like chairs playstyle is super scummy. But everyone who has played with chairs for a while seems to think its normal chairs and doesn't see it very scummy at all.

Considering this I'm taking chairs off of my top scum list and putting him more at null.

I'm going to reread a bit to try to find out who I should vote for.

[chairs]

I'm back from v/la, though I won't really have time to read the 20ish pages y'all posted this weekend until I get home tonight.

[Witherweaver]

Is it better to catch scum in the lie? Or is it better to Vote: Yuma right now for lying?

This really sounds like you're pretty certain he's lying, but you kind of evaded the question when you were asked how you knew.  Is there something you know that we don't?

How did you think he could be caught?

[Hydrad]

I'm going to go with Vote: e

after re reading yuma was kinda defending Volt with posts like #644

I don't have the strongest scum read on him but I'm having a really hard time finding a strong scum read like I did on Volt.

[Witherweaver]

Better than spending time on IG right now would be spending time on Box, lio, or BA.

Worth bringing up again.  Box was town, I think Lio is town, and this incriminates BA.  (Everyone loves to throw in a scumpartner with their mislynch candidates.)

Lots of things keep pointing to BA for me.

[Hydrad]

Better than spending time on IG right now would be spending time on Box, lio, or BA.

Worth bringing up again.  Box was town, I think Lio is town, and this incriminates BA.  (Everyone loves to throw in a scumpartner with their mislynch candidates.)

Lots of things keep pointing to BA for me.

Ah good point. I'm still up for lynching BA as well as e now as these are my top 2 people I think are scum

[Witherweaver]

Oh, right, faust was re-rolled today.

Re-reading lio, he started off with lots of theory talk, pushed XP, then back to rolling theory talk. I actually feel really good about this.

Right, this was the one that made me think Lio isn't Volt's partner.  Just reads a lot more like scum trying to start a case on someone and seeing if it can gain traction rather than scum bussing his partner when the field is wide open.

[Hydrad]

tl;dr...

Won't lynch hydra, mail-mi, faust/xerxes (pending confirmation that something happened between the two of them)

nullish: ichi, voltaire

willing to lynch: ash, box

probably won't to lynch: pps, liopoil or chairs.

One thing I just noticed was that yuma forgot to mention BA here. I don't know if that means anything.

[XerxesPraelor]

I don't think it does. Yuma/e certainly didn't do it on purpose, so I guess it points to him having forgotten about BA, which would be easier if BA were town.

[Beyond Awesome]

What about all the other people? Why did you choose exactly these players for your reread?

I choose these players because three of them were off the volt wagon but also on my wagon. And, Ash's hammer plus some of his other behavior seemed scummy to me. I did not want to reread everyone because with so many players that seemed like too much work for D2 since I think there is a strong chance at least one person off the volt wagon is likely scum.

Anyway, sorry for summarizing things. My plan was to put that out there now and then come back the next day and comment on everything I put on my reading. It was already 2AM by the time I finished compiling everything.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, so here is my commentary based on my reread that I posted before going to bed last night.

For chairs, he seems scummy for lurking. I think we can all agree on that. I feel like he has tried to push for a couple of mislynches, and his comment about how he doesn't get the wagon on Volt seems very scummy to me.

For Ash, his D1 behavior is scummy. First, he opens with the 9 which is a scum move considering he played the game before. This causes a few players to play their dice without thinking. Then, we have PPS who has his dice stolen and right off the bat Ash suggests that this is likely a scum ploy and that PPS is making the story up. I find that scummy of Ash to say because that sounds like setting PPS to be a mislynch to me.

Then, there is this whole thing where Ash decides that lio is scum and having reread the exchange, I don't get it. Ash claims volt is partner coaching lio, but it seems that lio thinks volt is scum and volt seems to be pushing for a lio lynch (this gives me towncred for lio) but for Ash I think this makes him seem scummy and actually seems like Ash is Volt's partner in this case. Again, I feel like Ash is trying to set up another mislynch.

Then, on D2 after my dice stolen Ash comes out and votes for me again just like he did PPS. Either he is convinced that scum would steal their own dice or he is working with the mafia thief to use the dice stealing power to frame town players.

However, I do think Ash comes across as towny as he explains later on that he voted for me to see who would join my wagon and that he never expected me to be scum. And, then he also claims to have quick hammered volt because he was expecting scum to play up the thing about him quickhammering. So, I can see where Ash is coming from here, and it is a very interesting strategy.

But, then, Ash becomes scummy again by stating that as scum he usually pushes for the mislynch (it seems he likes to do this as town as well), and then he claims to find Mail-Mi scummy because now on D2, he did roll but after getting attacked and that as scum mail-mi likely knew what was going to happen. I mean sure Mail-Mi might be scum, but I don't know. I guess Ash's reaction is nullish at best.

Then, I find the whole scum slip argument about beastmaster silly. I think it is just a word that Hydrad made up. So, either Ash is trying to force the mislynch here or again, he is looking to see who will join Hydrads wagon to get a better idea of who scum is. I don't really buy the whole scum slip argument though and find Ash's reasoning scummish.

So, based on that, I would say either Ash is a scum player pushing for mislynches or a town player putting bold ideas out there to see if scum bites. I'm not really sure what his meta here is though, but it is somewhat scummy.

Now, with e/yuma, him wanting to mass claim seems a bit scummish because not only does he want us to reveal our roles but also how many dice we have and what values we have stored. Considering that we do later find out he is thief, that does seem like a scummy thing to do. On D2, he claims to have targeted Box. We know that Box was stolen from. However, Box is dead so we can't verify Box was targeted again.

When e takes over, he claims that he is going to roll and store some dice. I find this move towny since we know that e has more dice than other town players. Then, e does not want to steal from PPS to confirm that PPS has no dice left. I know faust finds this scummy, but for me, this is null. But, then, there is the post where e tries to get more info on faust's role and that seems a bit scummy to me

However, for the most part e/yuma has come across as townie in other posts. We can confirm on D3 if there are two dice stealers. If only one person is stolen from, we lynch the hell out of e D3, but I don't see the point on D2. I mean, e might claim to steal from the player who gets NK'd, but if that is the case, we lynch e even if he is telling the truth because having stolen from the player who gets NK'd two days in a row just sounds very convenient.

So, with e, I want to wait until D3 and see what happens with other people's dice getting stolen.

Then, there is lio. I find volt opening with a vote against lio interesting. Then, we have Volt's post where he says town should be spending time on Box, lio, or BA. That post makes me think Volt was wanting to set lio up to be a mislynch. Then, we have lio saying he finds Ichi scummier in terms of low rollers between Ichi and Volt. Mind you, this was when Ichi was taking a lot of heat and Volt not so mucn. Then, volt says he likes Ichi and lio as lynch candidates. Honestly, if lio was volt's partner, volt really went out of his way to distance himself from lio as much as possible.

Then, we have the post where lio says he feels like Volt is trying to get a mislynch against him and then Ash comes out and says lios post is way too calm and collected. After this, more players come out and vote lio and lio voices his frustration that people are just voting for him without offering any reasoning whatsover. Honestly, at this point, it really does seem like Volt was trying to set up a mislynch for lio, and I am seeing lio as being townier and townier. Lio also claims he is against a mass claim so more town points for him there.

Then, most of his D2 actions I have found either townie or null. But, I really have not seen anything scummy at all with lio. The only way that I can see lio to be scum is if volt and him agreed before the day started to pretend to be enemies to each other and push for each others lynches so that if one of them were to go, it would seem the other one was likely to be town. Now, I mean, that is entirely possible. That seems like some crazy scum meta going on there, but I don't really buy it, so I think lio is town.

[Beyond Awesome]

Even though we have very little on chairs, I think he is the most likely to come up as scum if we lynch him.

[pingpongsam]

Is it better to catch scum in the lie? Or is it better to Vote: Yuma right now for lying?

This really sounds like you're pretty certain he's lying, but you kind of evaded the question when you were asked how you knew.  Is there something you know that we don't?

How did you think he could be caught?

Scum gets caught when their fakeclaim is disproven through PoE. That sounds like a harrowing process as opposed to jumping right to the jugular. His claim absolutely smacks of getting in an early claim for cred and WIFOM in case of a counter claim. His claim appears to be assembled from the already available information. Real claims tend to not be so thoroughly supported by already available information.

I've learned the old method of playing town by being completely forthright about who I think is scum is how scum win games through manipulating the information about where I am truly headed. Right now, nobody knows who I really suspect. My methods are not linear. A vote for a person is not, by necessity a realistic attempt for their lynch. ergo, my ability to take Voltaire to L-1 with near certainty he would flip scum appears to have come out of thin air.

My vote on e has it's reasons but they need not be public knowledge in order for them to be most effective.

If you think me scummy for that answer then you know where to place your vote.

[pingpongsam]

And now I have an improper use of it's I cannot edit out of perpetuity.

[Hydrad]

Forgive me but the mafia lingo thread doesn't have many of the terms that you guys are using. What is PoE?

[pingpongsam]

Process of Elimination

in this context it means flipping lynches and NKs till we discover which roles really do and do not exist.

[Witherweaver]

Is it better to catch scum in the lie? Or is it better to Vote: Yuma right now for lying?

This really sounds like you're pretty certain he's lying, but you kind of evaded the question when you were asked how you knew.  Is there something you know that we don't?

How did you think he could be caught?

Scum gets caught when their fakeclaim is disproven through PoE. That sounds like a harrowing process as opposed to jumping right to the jugular. His claim absolutely smacks of getting in an early claim for cred and WIFOM in case of a counter claim. His claim appears to be assembled from the already available information. Real claims tend to not be so thoroughly supported by already available information.

I've learned the old method of playing town by being completely forthright about who I think is scum is how scum win games through manipulating the information about where I am truly headed. Right now, nobody knows who I really suspect. My methods are not linear. A vote for a person is not, by necessity a realistic attempt for their lynch. ergo, my ability to take Voltaire to L-1 with near certainty he would flip scum appears to have come out of thin air.

My vote on e has it's reasons but they need not be public knowledge in order for them to be most effective.

If you think me scummy for that answer then you know where to place your vote.

Okay Mr. Holmes.

[Hydrad]

One thing I will say is I have absolutely no clue on what liopol is. I've reread almost all of his posts and a post might seem slightly scummy and the next feels slightly town. I would put him as less then even null, I don't know how to explain it but I just have absolutely no clue where to put him. For me it almost feels like hes more out of the game then chairs as whenever I try to think who is scum and town I just pretend hes not in this game.

I'm really curious why asher finds him so certainly scummy.

With asher in mind I think hes town but his plays seem so random. It feels like hes just got super random reads that no one else sees which I feel like makes him slightly scummy. And then he out of no where lynches Volt with no warning.

[chairs]

One thing I will say is I have absolutely no clue on what liopol is. I've reread almost all of his posts and a post might seem slightly scummy and the next feels slightly town. I would put him as less then even null, I don't know how to explain it but I just have absolutely no clue where to put him. For me it almost feels like hes more out of the game then chairs as whenever I try to think who is scum and town I just pretend hes not in this game.

I'm really curious why asher finds him so certainly scummy.

With asher in mind I think hes town but his plays seem so random. It feels like hes just got super random reads that no one else sees which I feel like makes him slightly scummy. And then he out of no where lynches Volt with no warning.

For me, personally, I wouldn't be surprised to find that ashersky's betting on "hedging null liopoil" being "carefully hedging null scum!liopoil".

[Beyond Awesome]

Overall, I agree with what faust said earlier on that we should lynch someone off the volt wagon. I don't think WW is a good lynch candidte. He has seemed very town to me this game. I feel like we can verify e on D3. With lio, I have been feeling like he is town, but the more I think about it, the more I can see him potentially being scum. There was a decent amount of interaction between him and Volt. Plus, Volt seemed to be trying to push lio around and getting people to vote for him (but, that doesn't make lio more town-like?), but then lio is off wagon when Volt is lynched. Considering how much Volt was pushing lio, it does seem strange that lio doesn't vote for volt. Ehh, I am still on the fence about his case. I still want to see chairs lynched.

But, here is the order in which I would consider lynching people off the volt wagon.

1. Chairs for reasons I have stated multiple times
2. Lio for reasons given above


3. e, we can likely verify if he is town or scum D3.











4. WW-I get a strong town vibe from him.

[Witherweaver]

I feel like I'm being anti-OMGUS-ed.  Like OMGUA, or OMGUR, or something.

[Beyond Awesome]

I feel like I'm being anti-OMGUS-ed.  Like OMGUA, or OMGUR, or something.

Ah, I see that you aren't falling for my reverse psychology trick.  But, honestly, I do think you're town. So, if you are scum congrats on fooling me.

[faust]

Here's a problem with verifying e's role:

Assume e is town and there is a scum role that works similar to his. What will the scum do? He wants e mislynched, so there shouldn't be two people losing dice. So either he does not target or he targets e, who will look scummy claiming he has been targeted himself.

If e is scum and the only role that steals dice, he will do exactly this: claim he has been targeted himself.

So in the end, no matter e's alignment, the outcome is the same. We will gain no new information on e's alignment.

[pingpongsam]

Here's a problem with verifying e's role:

Assume e is town and there is a scum role that works similar to his. What will the scum do? He wants e mislynched, so there shouldn't be two people losing dice. So either he does not target or he targets e, who will look scummy claiming he has been targeted himself.

If e is scum and the only role that steals dice, he will do exactly this: claim he has been targeted himself.

So in the end, no matter e's alignment, the outcome is the same. We will gain no new information on e's alignment.

Correct but lynching him would make much clear for there has been quite a bit of interaction surrounding that one. Also, I would note that those I view as towniest have basically created a wagon on him that refuses to gain any more traction which always suggests the wagon is on scum to me.

[faust]

Here's a problem with verifying e's role:

Assume e is town and there is a scum role that works similar to his. What will the scum do? He wants e mislynched, so there shouldn't be two people losing dice. So either he does not target or he targets e, who will look scummy claiming he has been targeted himself.

If e is scum and the only role that steals dice, he will do exactly this: claim he has been targeted himself.

So in the end, no matter e's alignment, the outcome is the same. We will gain no new information on e's alignment.

Correct but lynching him would make much clear for there has been quite a bit of interaction surrounding that one. Also, I would note that those I view as towniest have basically created a wagon on him that refuses to gain any more traction which always suggests the wagon is on scum to me.

I agree with this.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Here's a problem with verifying e's role:

Assume e is town and there is a scum role that works similar to his. What will the scum do? He wants e mislynched, so there shouldn't be two people losing dice. So either he does not target or he targets e, who will look scummy claiming he has been targeted himself.

If e is scum and the only role that steals dice, he will do exactly this: claim he has been targeted himself.

So in the end, no matter e's alignment, the outcome is the same. We will gain no new information on e's alignment.

Correct but lynching him would make much clear for there has been quite a bit of interaction surrounding that one. Also, I would note that those I view as towniest have basically created a wagon on him that refuses to gain any more traction which always suggests the wagon is on scum to me.

I agree with this.

Same. Let's lynch e now.

[Witherweaver]

I am okay with this.

[Witherweaver]

I don't actually remember who I'm voting for, but I was voting for e at one point.  Vote: e

[Beyond Awesome]

I think that's L-1.

I am willing to hammer, but I do have a feeling he will turn up town though. That's my biggest concern.

[Witherweaver]

Great, let's lynch e and then lynch BA after.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Could we get a vote count?

[Witherweaver]

Or the other way around?

[Beyond Awesome]

Great, let's lynch e and then lynch BA after.

Fair enough.

Vote: e

I think that's hammer.

[Witherweaver]

I don't actually think it is.. Faust was already voting for e when he voted earlier today. 

[chairs]

I think that's L-1.

I am willing to hammer, but I do have a feeling he will turn up town though. That's my biggest concern.

Common scum hedge.

vote: e I'll hammer, this sounds like a good choice.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, if he wasn't hammered before. He now is for sure.

[Hydrad]

well that happened kinda fast. Is this how these games normally go? No one can decide on anything and then in a couple hours we suddenly lynch someone?

[Ichimaru Gin]

well that happened kinda fast. Is this how these games normally go? No one can decide on anything and then in a couple hours we suddenly lynch someone?

Mm. Most games I've been in go really close to deadline when people eventualy decide. There's normally not quickhammers like this.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also. I think there's probably a good chance of me dying over the night. Don't know if I have time for a new reads post but I guess just take a look at my earlier reads.

If e flips scum though, pretty sure we got this.

[Hydrad]

One thing i'm slightly worried about is Jimmm extended the day since he couldn't find a replacment for mail. and now we just ended it

[Witherweaver]

One thing i'm slightly worried about is Jimmm extended the day since he couldn't find a replacment for mail. and now we just ended it

Why does that worry you?

[Beyond Awesome]

Also. I think there's probably a good chance of me dying over the night. Don't know if I have time for a new reads post but I guess just take a look at my earlier reads.

If e flips scum though, pretty sure we got this.

Why would you be the one to die? I think if anything I am the one who is going to bite the bullet.

[Hydrad]

One thing i'm slightly worried about is Jimmm extended the day since he couldn't find a replacment for mail. and now we just ended it

Why does that worry you?

Becuase I don't want mail to get mod killed or something because hes not here.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, assuming e does flip town, and I am NK'd, I think you guys need to lynch either lio or chairs. One of those two has to be scum for sure.

[pingpongsam]

Also. I think there's probably a good chance of me dying over the night. Don't know if I have time for a new reads post but I guess just take a look at my earlier reads.

If e flips scum though, pretty sure we got this.

Why would you be the one to die? I think if anything I am the one who is going to bite the bullet.

If you are town you are the easy mislynch. Also, you are claimed out. Scum has better targets.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also. I think there's probably a good chance of me dying over the night. Don't know if I have time for a new reads post but I guess just take a look at my earlier reads.

If e flips scum though, pretty sure we got this.

Why would you be the one to die? I think if anything I am the one who is going to bite the bullet.

People see me as more of an IC now (much more so than you I think). I don't know, I just want to be prepared.

This here sounds pretty scummy though. With the amount of suspicion you've had, I don't exactly see scum taking you out.

[Witherweaver]

So, assuming e does flip town, and I am NK'd, I think you guys need to lynch either lio or chairs. One of those two has to be scum for sure.

Why are you so sure he's flipping town?

[Witherweaver]

Vote: BA to carry over to tomorrow!

[Beyond Awesome]

Also. I think there's probably a good chance of me dying over the night. Don't know if I have time for a new reads post but I guess just take a look at my earlier reads.

If e flips scum though, pretty sure we got this.

Why would you be the one to die? I think if anything I am the one who is going to bite the bullet.

If you are town you are the easy mislynch. Also, you are claimed out. Scum has better targets.

Sure. I am the easy mislynch, and I know this going in D3, but I will still be able to do my investigation. If I catch scum, even if I do get lynched D3, when I flip town, assuming I caught scum N2, my investigation will guarantee that scum player is dead going in D4.

[Beyond Awesome]

Assuming that I do live the night, I am well aware that chances are high that I get mislynched. Don't think I did not know this with what I did.

[Witherweaver]

One thing i'm slightly worried about is Jimmm extended the day since he couldn't find a replacment for mail. and now we just ended it

Why does that worry you?

Becuase I don't want mail to get mod killed or something because hes not here.

Hm... oh, I see.. after a certain day he can't be subbed in any more.

[Ichimaru Gin]

One thing i'm slightly worried about is Jimmm extended the day since he couldn't find a replacment for mail. and now we just ended it

Why does that worry you?

Becuase I don't want mail to get mod killed or something because hes not here.

Hm... oh, I see.. after a certain day he can't be subbed in any more.

It's past D3 right?

[Beyond Awesome]

So, assuming e does flip town, and I am NK'd, I think you guys need to lynch either lio or chairs. One of those two has to be scum for sure.

Why are you so sure he's flipping town?

I'm not sure he is flipping town but Box did get stolen D1 and so did PPS, it seems. I honestly think there is a strong chance e is town for that reason.

[Witherweaver]

One thing i'm slightly worried about is Jimmm extended the day since he couldn't find a replacment for mail. and now we just ended it

Why does that worry you?

Becuase I don't want mail to get mod killed or something because hes not here.

Hm... oh, I see.. after a certain day he can't be subbed in any more.

It's past D3 right?

It's after Day 2.  Maybe if a sub is found before Day 3 starts they'll be able to join.

[Hydrad]

One thing i'm happy though is we killed the monster so we get another reward. With us killing scum day 1 and beating the monster twice even if e is town I think we are in a good spot

[pingpongsam]

One thing i'm happy though is we killed the monster so we get another reward. With us killing scum day 1 and beating the monster twice even if e is town I think we are in a good spot

exactly. The chances e is town are quite low, especially with the way it just exploded. what matters is A) the information his flip gives us which we desperately need judging how this day just wobbled all over the place with no direction whatsoever and B) Town can afford to flip for information as a loss is quite uncritical considering the N1 NK was a VT.

[Witherweaver]

well that happened kinda fast. Is this how these games normally go? No one can decide on anything and then in a couple hours we suddenly lynch someone?

It seemed like the day had stalled.. it felt to me like I wasn't getting any new information and was just going back and forth between the same few scum reads.  I think we had to move forward.

[Beyond Awesome]

well that happened kinda fast. Is this how these games normally go? No one can decide on anything and then in a couple hours we suddenly lynch someone?

It seemed like the day had stalled.. it felt to me like I wasn't getting any new information and was just going back and forth between the same few scum reads.  I think we had to move forward.

I agree with this 100%. I felt the same way.

[liopoil]

we seriously need to stop lynching people so fast. Intent to hammer is a good thing.

I'm not feeling too confident about this, but then again, I wasn't on Voltaire either.

[ashersky]

we seriously need to stop lynching people so fast. Intent to hammer is a good thing.

I'm not feeling too confident about this, but then again, I wasn't on Voltaire either.

OMFG vote: liopoil

[ashersky]

Really, everyone, listen to me.  Lynch liopoil tomorrow.  If I die, remember this.

[faust]

Really, everyone, listen to me.  Lynch liopoil tomorrow.  If I die, remember this.

Do not lynch liopoil. Not without thinking, at least.

[faust]

Also, should I die, reflect carefully upon everything I said.

[Hydrad]

Also, should I die, reflect carefully upon everything I said.

So i get to search for hints?

[Jimmmmm]

Thread Locked.

[Jimmmmm]

Vote Count 2.8 - Final

Beyond Awesome (2): 2.71828....., liopoil
chairs (1): mail-mi
pingpongsam (1): XerxesPraelor
2.71828..... (7): faust, pingpongsam, Ichimaru Gin, Hydrad, Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome, chairs
Hydrad (1): ashersky

not voting (0)

With 12 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

2.71828..... has been lynched. He was a Town Thief.

[Jimmmmm]

Target: 60
Score: 64

The Troll has been defeated!

Today's Reward is TREASURE.

You have found a pile of new dice.
Each player may vote for another player by posting Vote: Player in their personal QT. The player who receives the most votes, with a tie broken randomly, will then be able to distribute them between the supplies of currently living players however they choose. The new dice will be gained at the start of Day 3.

Votes will be due 24 hours before the Night 2 deadline.

Night 2 has begun. I will post the Night 2 deadline once a replacement for mail-mi has been found.

Whether or not you submit a Night action, all players must post in their Personal QT at least once during the Night.

[Jimmmmm]

Clarifications for Tonight's reward:

You may not vote for yourself.
The player who receives the most votes may distribute the dice however they like among the currently living players, including themself.

[Jimmmmm]

Archetype has replaced mail-mi.

Treasure votes are due on July 9 at 7am forum time.

All other Night actions are due on July 10 at 7am forum time.

[Jimmmmm]

Apologies for the delay! Day 3 should start in the next 12 hours.

[Jimmmmm]

The next morning, those who remained emerged once again from their tents.

"I feel a little weird..." XerxesPraelor muttered. Suddenly, he turned into a frog.

An ugly Witch trod on the frog, squashing it flat. She then turned her wand on liopoil and ashersky

XerxesPraelor has been killed. He was a Town Mentalist Advisor.

A Witch has attacked!
Rule: When a die is played (besides the first die played for the Day), it only counts if it has opposite parity (odd/even) to the previous die played.

The Witch has attacked liopoil and ashersky!



Vote Count 3.0

not voting (10): ashersky, chairs, mail-mi, faust, Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome, Ichimaru Gin, liopoil, Hydrad, pingpongsam

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 19 at 3am forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 21 at 3am forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 0


Day 3 has begun!

Thread unlocked.

[Jimmmmm]

Today's rolls will be resolved differently from normal. Only one player's roll will be resolved at once. So when the second player to roll does so, they will not receive their results until after the first player has played a die, and so on.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, I investigated chairs last night.

The result I got was 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12

So, nothing incriminating there. He could still be scum though.

5 dice were added to my supply. Should I go ahead and roll now?

[ashersky]

I received dice as well.

I voted XP for the reward, based on a visit.  That mass claim might work now.

Anyone want to guess what the attack did to me and lio?

[faust]

Okay... sorry about D2, I was really sure that e was scum.

I'm willing to lay all my cards on the table today, but that will be much more effective if it goes hand in hand with a mass claim.

I voted for Xerxes as well tonight.

[faust]

I think liopoil and ashersky should probably roll first, because they were attacked, and we want to know what the attack does.

[faust]

Target is 60 with 10 players... that's 6 per player. Seems managable.

[faust]

Also, hi Archetype!

[pingpongsam]

I received dice last night. I voted Faust for the reward and I targeted someone I shall not reveal with a certain visitor I was most certainly sent by scum the night before since the visit is only useful if you have stored dice.

[pingpongsam]

Also, I am claimed out except for the bits about the advisor and the mentalist which XP was sending and Faust knows about. I assume someone was visited last night as well. Was that person able to get a result?

[pingpongsam]

I received dice as well.

I voted XP for the reward, based on a visit.  That mass claim might work now.

Anyone want to guess what the attack did to me and lio?

Possibly causes your dice play order to be reversed? I think would have to be something that messes with our ability to coordinate the parity of the played dice.

[pingpongsam]

But since you are scum why don't you just go ahead and tell us?

[pingpongsam]

Who won the vote last night?

[ashersky]

play: 10

I was visited by the Mentalist last night.  Since his advisor was killed, I get to choose who he visits next.

[ashersky]

Who won the vote last night?

I would assume XP, given he was conf!town to a number of us.

I received dice last night. I voted Faust for the reward and I targeted someone I shall not reveal with a certain visitor I was most certainly sent by scum the night before since the visit is only useful if you have stored dice.

And vote: pps as you are one of the people who knew XP was conf!town and yet you didn't vote for him last night.

[faust]

I received dice last night. I voted Faust for the reward and I targeted someone I shall not reveal with a certain visitor I was most certainly sent by scum the night before since the visit is only useful if you have stored dice.

And vote: pps as you are one of the people who knew XP was conf!town and yet you didn't vote for him last night.

Good point.

[faust]

I received dice last night. I voted Faust for the reward and I targeted someone I shall not reveal with a certain visitor I was most certainly sent by scum the night before since the visit is only useful if you have stored dice.

I don't understand. You were visited, but it wasn't useful, yet you were able to target someone through this?

[faust]

play: 10

I was visited by the Mentalist last night.  Since his advisor was killed, I get to choose who he visits next.

Did you note anything special happening with your roll?

[faust]

Soo...

people already claimed: PPS, mail-mi, BA, Ichi

My preferred order for the remaining people to claim:

Witherweaver
chairs
ashersky
Hydrad
liopoil
faust

[faust]

The way WW, BA, chairs quickhammered e was supremely scummy. I expect at least one scum among them, quite likely two.

[faust]

Jimmmmm: your vote count says mail-mi still when it should say Archetype.

[liopoil]

ichimaru gin, I targeted you last night with the same thing that I targeted faust with last night.

[liopoil]

should I roll now? I probably won't have another chance to until later this afternoon.

[liopoil]

Soo...

people already claimed: PPS, mail-mi, BA, Ichi

My preferred order for the remaining people to claim:

Witherweaver
chairs
ashersky
Hydrad
liopoil
faust

but why should these people claim? I still don't see the point unless they have stuff to tell us.

[faust]

Soo...

people already claimed: PPS, mail-mi, BA, Ichi

My preferred order for the remaining people to claim:

Witherweaver
chairs
ashersky
Hydrad
liopoil
faust

but why should these people claim? I still don't see the point unless they have stuff to tell us.

Most roles are verifiable, so scum can't lie. Knowing what powers scum has helps us.

[faust]

lio, whom did you vote for last night?

[faust]

should I roll now? I probably won't have another chance to until later this afternoon.

Don't roll until we have confirmation that ash's roll was counted.

[liopoil]

lio, whom did you vote for last night?

Ichimaru Gin, because I am pretty convinced he is town.

[ashersky]

should I roll now? I probably won't have another chance to until later this afternoon.

Don't roll until we have confirmation that ash's roll was counted.

I played a stored die instead of rolling, so hopefully that would bypass rolling effects.

[Hydrad]

I'm fine with the mass claim idea.

Also I actually voted for Faust as I felt he was also pretty much conf!town.

[Witherweaver]

I voted for Faust as well.

I'm willing to do the mass claim.

[Witherweaver]

The way WW, BA, chairs quickhammered e was supremely scummy. I expect at least one scum among them, quite likely two.

I would still like to lynch BA~

[Witherweaver]

Oh, hey, I was attacked last night.  I lost four dice.

[Hydrad]

The way WW, BA, chairs quickhammered e was supremely scummy. I expect at least one scum among them, quite likely two.

I would still like to lynch BA~

I agree. Personally I feel chairs quick hammer is so scummy that scum probably wouldn't risk doing that?

[Witherweaver]

The way WW, BA, chairs quickhammered e was supremely scummy. I expect at least one scum among them, quite likely two.

I would still like to lynch BA~

I agree. Personally I feel chairs quick hammer is so scummy that scum probably wouldn't risk doing that?

I'm not sure.. I don't have any idea what kind of scum player Chairs is.

[Hydrad]

Ya. It's weird I've been pushing to lunch chairs since I think day 1 and now I'm thinking him quick hammering makes him town? Right now I've got like no good reads though so I think I need to study a bit more

[Witherweaver]

should I roll now? I probably won't have another chance to until later this afternoon.

Don't roll until we have confirmation that ash's roll was counted.

I played a stored die instead of rolling, so hopefully that would bypass rolling effects.

I'm sure the attack has to do with playing and not rolling.. the other attacks affected the die played.

[Witherweaver]

Well I guess the Troll's attack rerolled the entire die roll for that day.  I'm not sure what would have happened if someone had played a stored die and not rolled... but since it was day 1 that isn't possible.

[Hydrad]

Some of my first thought of the witch attack would be. Reversed parity. Make your rolls negative. Don't count the rolls? Hopefully it's something not to strong and the witch should be easy

[Witherweaver]

Some of my first thought of the witch attack would be. Reversed parity. Make your rolls negative. Don't count the rolls? Hopefully it's something not to strong and the witch should be easy

Hmm.. reverse parity is a good idea.. if it is reverse parity, and we're not told, we won't verify until someone plays a die after Ash and see if it counts or not.

[pingpongsam]

Who won the vote last night?

I would assume XP, given he was conf!town to a number of us.

I received dice last night. I voted Faust for the reward and I targeted someone I shall not reveal with a certain visitor I was most certainly sent by scum the night before since the visit is only useful if you have stored dice.

And vote: pps as you are one of the people who knew XP was conf!town and yet you didn't vote for him last night.

Uh, I voted Faust, the other conf town guy, that I played a part in confirming who I felt had a better chance of surviving last night... And I was right. I assumed the treasure lost if the voted got nk'd.

[Witherweaver]

I think Jimmm specified that if the person that received the most votes was killed, he still got to give away the dice.

[pingpongsam]

I received dice last night. I voted Faust for the reward and I targeted someone I shall not reveal with a certain visitor I was most certainly sent by scum the night before since the visit is only useful if you have stored dice.

I don't understand. You were visited, but it wasn't useful, yet you were able to target someone through this?

It was not useful because I had zero dice stored or otherwise until the start of today. The person I targeted will get the visit tonight. Obviously I shouldn't advertise who that person is.

[Witherweaver]

Okay maybe not.. it says he gets to distribute them amongst the currently living players... no reason to think that would be inhibited in any way if he was a night kill target.  Though, if they chose to give to themselves, and then died, the dice would be lost.

[chairs]

Okay, what is it I'm supposed to be claiming here?

[Jimmmmm]

ashersky plays a 10
Score: 3

[pingpongsam]

i think liopoil should roll next and he should play an odd number if at all possible

[Witherweaver]

I'd agree with that.

[faust]

Okay, what is it I'm supposed to be claiming here?

Pretty much your role and what you did with it. Also, if anything strange happened to you, that would be good to know.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, looks like there are no dissenters to mass claiming.  I'll go ahead and start

I am a Town X-Shot Saboteur.  I can reveal what X is, but not sure if I should.  I have not used any shots.  This is what my power does:

During the night, I may name a single player, and that player is unable to roll any of the three highest-scoring values.  I can only name one player per night (i.e., I can only use one shot a night). 

Moreover, if I die, then for each shot I have remaining, a random player will be Sabotaged (effect above) on each of the following two days. 

I read this as, if I have X shots left and die tonight, then tomorrow X random players get Sabotaged, and the next day X random players get Sabotaged again.

This is why I didn't want to claim my roll before.. I saw this as largely anti-town, because in most cases we want high rolls.  If I'm night killed, then the effect seems pretty bad for us.  I did not use any shots because there was no reason to believe we wouldn't want high rolls, and even if I had a strong scum read on someone, we still want them to play high.

However, this effect is a boon for these monsters:

OGRE - Only 1s and 2s count.

GOBLIN - Even numbers count as negative.

For those of us that can roll up to 12, my effect takes away 10,11, and 12 as possibilities, so two evens and one odd. (In fact, probably true for anyone, because the highest value is probably even.)  For Ogres, the chance to get 1 or 2 is reduced from 2/12 to 2/9.  So at this point it could help.  This is also why I asked yesterday if anyone had the ability to see what monsters are coming up, so I'd know if I should use my power or not.

The only night actions I've taken were to target Faust with the medical thing on Night 1 and Faust again with the treasure thing on Night 2.

I don't know if we're doing full die claiming, so I won't do that, but as I said before, I lost four dice from my Supply last night.  Nothing happened to me on the previous nights.

[liopoil]

Should I try to play a low odd number? I think yes, based on ash's result

[Witherweaver]

I should clarify, when I Sabotage someone during the night, they are Sabotaged (can't roll their three highest values) for the following day.

I'm assuming this effectively takes them from a dN to a d(N-3).. so d12 becomes d9.  The alternative interpretation would be the rolls of 10, 8, 4 just become 8 and 4 (the 10 is dropped instead of rerolled).

[Witherweaver]

Should I try to play a low odd number? I think yes, based on ash's result

It's unclear exactly what the modification is.. it could be min(0, Roll-7) or it could be Roll-7 with negatives allowed, or could be some other function that maps 10->3.

[liopoil]

Why did you claim WW?

[Witherweaver]

Why did you claim WW?

I was first on the list.

[liopoil]

That's a bad reason

[chairs]

That's a bad reason

Why do you want to not massclaim?

[Beyond Awesome]

So WW, you said you lost 4 dice, but did you also gain any dice?

[liopoil]

<b>Play: 7</b>

[Beyond Awesome]

The way WW, BA, chairs quickhammered e was supremely scummy. I expect at least one scum among them, quite likely two.

FWIW WW and chairs were both off of Volts wagon. Lio has not been on either wagon.

[liopoil]

play: 7 - I scumslipped!!

[Jimmmmm]

liopoil plays a 7
Score: 9

[Hydrad]

These number addings don't make sense. But as long as there isn't a delayed affect for there dice I think this is still an easy kill

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. Just got up. Um. I was "visited" during the night, but I was not given a player name. I was given some options and made a decision. Not sure how much more I want to talk about it though. Ah, and I see liopoil says he targeted me with something special. I think this was probably it.

I voted for faust to be the one to distribute the treasure. This morning, I also received some dice.

[liopoil]

No ichi, that was not me, my target did something else.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. Well it seems like multiple people targeted me for different stuff I guess.

Debating whether to tell the flavor name of my visitor, as I don't think it would hurt anything. Anyway, as far as I can tell, those were the only things that happened to me were the visit and getting some of the treasure dice.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Although with the way things are. It's not like we are given exact information whenever our supply changes. The fluctuation observed in my own supply is probably the result of multiple-- and possibly conflicting night actions.

[Archetype]

Hi everyone!

I targeted Faust last night.

[Archetype]

Also, I recieved some dice last night.

[Witherweaver]

So WW, you said you lost 4 dice, but did you also gain any dice?

I did not gain any, only lost.  At least, the Supply: was only changed once.

[chairs]

After carefully reading to make sure I can do this without being pooched by any dice being rolled.

Play: 12

[pingpongsam]

ashersky - 10 became 3
liopoil - 7 became 6 (no idea what is happening here)
chairs - 12
mail-mi
faust
Witherweaver
Beyond Awesome
Ichimaru Gin
Hydrad
pingpongsam


this list is nothing more than the list of players as provided by Jimmmmm when he opened the day, there is no other method to the ordering.
I propose that before anyone else rolls we see if there is an effect to chairs' roll. Following that I would to have a predetermined rolling order. I'm fine with the above but of course, since I have posted it and I am last on the list I can only imagine there are those who oppose it if not for other reasons. I'm not entirely sure the actual order matters so much as the fact that we go in an order.

One idea might be to assign ourselves numbers like so:

1 - mail-mi
2 - faust
3 - Witherweaver
4 - Beyond Awesome
5 - Ichimaru Gin
6 - Hydrad
7 - pingpongsam

then let the randomizer order us like so...

Rolled 1d7 : 6, total 6

...so that whoever just got picked rolls and in their play post they randomize the next person.

[pingpongsam]

So, Hydrad would roll next and he would would do something like this:

1 - mail-mi
2 - faust
3 - Witherweaver
4 - Beyond Awesome
5 - Ichimaru Gin
6 - pingpongsam

Rolled 1d6 : 4, total 4

and so on, or i could just do this till we have an order, haha.

[Hydrad]

So should I follow this and roll? Or I guess we are waiting for chairs 12

[pingpongsam]

Yeah, I think we should see if chairs' 12 really adds 12 to our score so we can make informed decisions about what values to play

[faust]

Okay, at this point, I think there's no use anymore in not saying this:

I got to distribute tonight's prize.

I tried to give more dice to people I find townier, but less to people who were likely to be nightkilled. Also people who I felt needed some dice received more than they usually would based on townieness.

[pingpongsam]

faust is IC in my eyes.

If he wins as scum then he did it in the most kamikaze way possible.

[Hydrad]

Also I think the witch might of done the difference between their number and 13. So 13-10=3 and 13-7=6? I don't know for sure but seems like a possibility

[Beyond Awesome]

Also I think the witch might of done the difference between their number and 13. So 13-10=3 and 13-7=6? I don't know for sure but seems like a possibility

That's an interesting theory. Although, I would have never thought of it.

[chairs]

...that makes sense, since 13 is the traditional number of witches in a coven and an unlucky number.

[Jimmmmm]

chairs plays a 12
Score: 9

[liopoil]

Ooo, that makes chairs look scummy. And his hammer yesterday was scummy too. Hydrad thinks it is too scummy, but I don't think so. I'll put down a Vote: chairs

[liopoil]

Oh wait, maybe my die counted as a six (even)  and so his didn't count. But still, scum would know that.

[Hydrad]

I think liopoils die counted for a 6 which if I'm right means the witch attack made it reverse polarity and made it so high numbers were bad.

If that's true I don't think we can blame chairs for rolling a 12 as who wouldn't roll a 12 if they had it there. Maybe if we thought it trough a bit more we could of realized it but who knows

[Witherweaver]

So we have to play an odd number now?

[Hydrad]

I believe so. Now it should just be normal as long as there arnt other things affecting it. But still 3 people rolling and we got  two 9 hurts

[Hydrad]

Wait can we have gin reroll chairs 12?

[Witherweaver]

Good call.  Make it so?

[Hydrad]

Ya I don't see a better situation to use the reroll since gin is even garenteed his 2 dice dice it's a 12

[Beyond Awesome]

Wait can we have gin reroll chairs 12?

That's pretty smart thinking there

[pingpongsam]

2 things.

1. It was obvious to me we needed an odd number. Why did chairs roll even?

2. The even odd thing, as I understand it means since chairs played an even die we now need an odd die.

2a. I think we should reroll chairs before anyone else rolls.

[liopoil]

I think we should wait and see if someone else doesn't rolll a number with the correct parity - I don't trust chairs.

[Witherweaver]

The thing is it isn't clear.  Lio played an odd number but it was scored as an even number.  So does it go by what was played or what value was actually used?

Chairs played 12 but was scored as 0, which is even.

If we reroll chairs, does his play not count for parity?  I assume so.

[Witherweaver]

I think we should reroll chairs so we can be somewhat confident we need an odd number.

[Witherweaver]

But also, maybe the witch effect just switches parity and isn't relevant to the parity after Chairs roll.

[pingpongsam]

It seems clear to me the values were altered (the 13 thing seems probable) and the played values count towards the parity required for the next play to be successful. That is, the value scored is equivalent having been played.

[Beyond Awesome]

I think we should wait and see if someone else doesn't rolll a number with the correct parity - I don't trust chairs.

So, are you saying that we should have others roll before rerolling chairs? What can chairs do if we reroll him? At worst, he plays another even number.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, I see what you are saying. You think chairs will screw us with his roll. But, I think a lot of players got extra dice from Faust. So, I doubt we will really need to reroll any other player.

[Beyond Awesome]

But, maybe you're right. Let Ichi decide.

[Witherweaver]

Actually in every case we need an odd.. Im not sure what I was thinking.  I had thought PPS said something different.

[ashersky]

If anyone is The Mentalist, you should claim.

[pingpongsam]

If anyone is The Mentalist, you should claim.

XP flipped the mentalist, right? It surely adds up to what I observed from my night visit and what Faust reported the day before.

[Witherweaver]

I thought we were all claiming.

[Archetype]

I agree with a reroll on chairs.

Looking back at the end of D1, trying to formulate some reads:

I don't see how this isn't town Volt here.  In Greater Idea he stood out to me as quite not-town Volt.. it really seemed like he was fabricating his town play.  I don't see that here, he just seems like regular Volt.  He could have learned from that, but I can't imagine voting for him today.

Would scum be this blatant about their partner? I could see someone like ash doing something like this, but not WW. I have a townread on him for this and his claim.

- I agree that there isn't really anything scummy about voltaire's play in general, however, I do have a scumread on him. Two reasons: 1) he rolled a 5, the lowest of everyone, and 2) The way he acted in regard to his vote on me was a bit strange.

Town points for this, especially considering the back and forth between him and Voltaire earlier in the day. I do find it scummy that despite expressing that read, he didn't end up on his wagon. So a slight scum read on him.

I'm not sure I follow why there's a big Voltaire wagon.  What am I missing?

This reads to me as scum logging onto to see that his partner has a big wagon on him. I don't think I understand what's going on enough with these whole dice changing scores thing to justify giving a scumread to chairs. But that's what I thought in game 1 when he played a 1. He did seem like his normal jokey non-hesistant town!self earlier D1, but I still have a scumread on him.

yuma looks like town, so that's good.

Ichi's most recent posts are also on the townier side.

How about vote: Voltaire? He just feels like scum. Will look at this in more detail after the weekend.

Oh yeah, that's L-2.

Getting a strong town vibe from this post; it just doesn't read as scum trying to bus his partner. Also, while following along in the speccy, I had a townread on faust (which is rare - I always think faust is scum). When I subbed in and reread, I still had a townread on him and voted for him. And with the dice distribution thing, he's easily my top town read.

Vote: Voltaire

That is L-1.

This, however, does read like scum trying to bus their partner. Especially with the follow up post:

Voltaire is way outside his meta. I believe it unlikely he and ashersky are partners so his flip will be largely informative.

I also find him suspicious D1 for his confusion on his own claim. That just screams scum forgetting what they fakeclaimed. Scumread here.

vote: voltaire

ashersky's surprise hammer! I'm leaning scum because I can't think of what town!ash could gain from this. I can see where he'd do it just to see what would happen but, like someone else said, I could see ash doing that as either alignment. Light scumread.

vote: voltaire

Wait, was that the hammer!?

Dude, fake surprise is scummy.

This is not "fake surprise". So you just hammered without giving Voltaire a chance to claim, without warning--this early in the day.

Getting a town vibe from this. Genuinely reads as the model townie freaking out when the day is cut short from a quickhammer. Also been getting just a general townie read from him that I can't really explain.

Sorry two last nooby questions. If 8 votes are reached is the person lynched right away or does he have time for last words to get out of it.

Also f I die but town still wins later does that count as a win for me still?

Hydrad seems sort of oblivious to what's going on. Town read for him.

Sorry two last nooby questions. If 8 votes are reached is the person lynched right away or does he have time for last words to get out of it.

Also f I die but town still wins later does that count as a win for me still?

He dies, but if the thread is not locked immediately, he can still say last words. Typically, from what I have seen from my previous game, we allow the player a chance to claim before lynching them. This is only my second game though.

I believe that if you die then, yes, assuming you are town, if town wins, you also win.

BA seems more concerned with the monster's results than the outcome of the lynch. So, slight town for that.

Vote Count 1.7 - Final

Ichimaru Gin (1): Voltaire
Beyond Awesome (1): Witherweaver
Voltaire (eight): mail-mi, Hydrad, Ichimaru Gin, XerxesPraelor, Beyond Awesome, faust, pingpongsam, ashersky
Witherweaver (1): chairs
pingpongsam (1): yuma
mail-mi (1): liopoil

not voting (1): BoxOfDog

With 14 alive, it took 8 to lynch.

Voltaire has been lynched. He was a Mafia Roleblocker.

I'm not sure where scum would fall here. I'm going to say either closer to the front of the wagon, or off-lynch entirely. Depending upon their previous stances. So,  pingpongsam, liopoil, chairs, and Witherweaver

So, reads total (from most towny to least):

faust
Ichimaru Gin
Hydrad
Beyond Awesome
liopoil
ashersky
Witherweaver
chairs
pingpongsam

PPE: 8

[liopoil]

If everyone rolls 3 dice,there is a .607 chance someone doesn't get a number of the right parity. I would rather reroll them. If nobody does, we go ahead and reroll chairs.

[Beyond Awesome]

If everyone rolls 3 dice,there is a .607 chance someone doesn't get a number of the right parity. I would rather reroll them. If nobody does, we go ahead and reroll chairs.

The thing is it won't matter. After chairs, we need an odd, so even if we reroll him afterwards, his result still will not count, or rather he will invalidate the roll after him if he goes with a low odd roll. It is better to reroll him now or not reroll him at all.

[liopoil]

Oh, that's a good point. If we are sure that rerolling with do this, then I agree, reroll chairs now.

[Hydrad]

Hydrad seems sort of oblivious to what's going on. Town read for him.

Well whatever works i guess

[Archetype]

Hydrad seems sort of oblivious to what's going on. Town read for him.

Well whatever works i guess

Reading it out of context, that seems like an attack on your play. Sorry if it came across that way! What I meant was how you reacted Voltaire's wagon as just another wagon, not a wagon scumpartner.

[ashersky]

If anyone is The Mentalist, you should claim.

XP flipped the mentalist, right? It surely adds up to what I observed from my night visit and what Faust reported the day before.

XP flipped Advisor for the Mentalist.

[Hydrad]

Hydrad seems sort of oblivious to what's going on. Town read for him.

Well whatever works i guess

Reading it out of context, that seems like an attack on your play. Sorry if it came across that way! What I meant was how you reacted Voltaire's wagon as just another wagon, not a wagon scumpartner.

No don't worry I knew it wasn't an attack.

[Hydrad]

So do we really even know what xp's ability did? you get visited by someone but nothing seems to happen? I guess its not that important now unless it has lasting effects.

[chairs]

...did I not understand what's going on? Why did my roll not affect score at all?

also I didn't roll, I played a stored die.

[Hydrad]

...did I not understand what's going on? Why did my roll not affect score at all?

also I didn't roll, I played a stored die.

shoot then we can't reroll your die I don't think.

What we are thinking is that lio's 7 was actually a 6. and since a 6 is a even number your 12 doesn't count.

[Hydrad]

Wait if you havn't rolled yet are you allowed to roll some dice. then gin rerolls your stuff. then you have a possibility of playing a dice instead of from the supply?

I'm not sure if that would work or not. might need Jimmm

[Beyond Awesome]

Wait if you havn't rolled yet are you allowed to roll some dice. then gin rerolls your stuff. then you have a possibility of playing a dice instead of from the supply?

I'm not sure if that would work or not. might need Jimmm

I doubt it. The rules say instead of rolling you may play a stored die.

However, chairs claim provides us with an interesting opportunity. Ichi can attempt to reroll it. If it rerolls then that means chairs is lying and is scum for sure. If it doesn't reroll then this means it is very likely that chairs is town or was preparing ahead by storing a 12 to look townie later on.

[Beyond Awesome]

But, that might be a bad idea because we might be wasting ichi's reroll ability. what do other players think?

[Archetype]

Wait if you havn't rolled yet are you allowed to roll some dice. then gin rerolls your stuff. then you have a possibility of playing a dice instead of from the supply?

I'm not sure if that would work or not. might need Jimmm

I doubt it. The rules say instead of rolling you may play a stored die.

However, chairs claim provides us with an interesting opportunity. Ichi can attempt to reroll it. If it rerolls then that means chairs is lying and is scum for sure. If it doesn't reroll then this means it is very likely that chairs is town or was preparing ahead by storing a 12 to look townie later on.

I could totally see scum!chairs playing his stored die, hoping it doesn't count, have it not be able to have it rerolled by town!Ichimaru, and be given Towncred for his 12 despite it not actually helping the Town. I'll vote:chairs for now.

I think the final say should be I Ichi's because a) it's his role and b) he's my second highest townread. If it were me, I'd use it on someone else. Well, assuming that a stored dice that was played can't be rerolled. If it can, then I say pick chairs.

[faust]

...did I not understand what's going on? Why did my roll not affect score at all?

also I didn't roll, I played a stored die.

chairs, you are the next player to claim. Go ahead, or state that you won't cooperate.

[ashersky]

If anyone is The Mentalist, you should claim.

XP flipped the mentalist, right? It surely adds up to what I observed from my night visit and what Faust reported the day before.

XP flipped Advisor for the Mentalist.

I have a theory on the Mentalist, but waiting to see who claims.

[liopoil]

...did I not understand what's going on? Why did my roll not affect score at all?

also I didn't roll, I played a stored die.

chairs, you are the next player to claim. Go ahead, or state that you won't cooperate.

(you don't need to cooperate, massclaim is silly)

[pingpongsam]

If anyone is The Mentalist, you should claim.

XP flipped the mentalist, right? It surely adds up to what I observed from my night visit and what Faust reported the day before.

XP flipped Advisor for the Mentalist.

I have a theory on the Mentalist, but waiting to see who claims.

My theory is XP was both mentalist and advisor.

[pingpongsam]

Hydrad, can you roll now and randomize the next roller. It seems we need an odd number.

Vote: chairs

[chairs]

I guess I might as well claim now, since there's a possibility that I won't be very available for a few days and I actually think massclaim's not too terrible.

I am a Manipulator.  Each Night, I can forbid a player from rolling certain numbers the next Day (they just can't roll those numbers, if they would otherwise have rolled them they instead get rerolled until they roll the dice without those numbers).  I targeted Ashersky N1 preventing him from rolling 1, 2, 3, 4 and I targeted IG for medical support.  D2 I targeted PPS for a visitor that had come to me N1 early in the Day and forgot to change when it became likely that he hadn't stored anything (I just sent it to him because he was my top Town read).  N2 I targeted PPS and forbid him from playing 4 numbers, but I'm not sure we want scum to know which 4 so i'll pass on saying which.  Also I voted faust for the treasure.

I think that's everything that there is for me to claim.

[pingpongsam]

I am confused because XP said he targeted me which I thought resulted in my visit. It makes more sense that he couldn't target and be the visitor too. I just wonder how I could be targeted by both.

[ashersky]

If anyone is The Mentalist, you should claim.

XP flipped the mentalist, right? It surely adds up to what I observed from my night visit and what Faust reported the day before.

XP flipped Advisor for the Mentalist.

I have a theory on the Mentalist, but waiting to see who claims.

My theory is XP was both mentalist and advisor.

Pretty sure that's wrong.

I think XP controlled the mentalist (by deciding who he visits).  I inherited that ability specifically because he died.

[faust]

ash, will you claim? You'd be next on my list.

[ashersky]

ash, will you claim? You'd be next on my list.

I have things I want to claim, yes.

[pingpongsam]

If anyone is The Mentalist, you should claim.

XP flipped the mentalist, right? It surely adds up to what I observed from my night visit and what Faust reported the day before.

XP flipped Advisor for the Mentalist.

I have a theory on the Mentalist, but waiting to see who claims.

My theory is XP was both mentalist and advisor.

Pretty sure that's wrong.

I think XP controlled the mentalist (by deciding who he visits).  I inherited that ability specifically because he died.

Chairs targeting me for a visitor was totally separate from the mentalist thing. I sent that visitor to someone else for tonight. Sorry for the confusion.

I maintain my vote on chairs. I was the perfect scum target for this visitor because it was public knowledge I had no dice if any kind, least of all stored and the visitor allows you to use stored dice.

I think chairs needs to tell us what I cannot roll so we can still coordinate a successful witch killing.

[Hydrad]

Ok I have rolled. just waiting on Jimmm. And to make sure no confusion. We all agree that I should roll an odd number yes?

[Hydrad]

Play: 7

Ok has someone done something to me? I have rolled 10 dice in total and my highest is a 7 still. Its starting to feel like the odds of this are really low.

[ashersky]

The Mentalist:

Visited me in the QT, offered to cop a player in exchange for stored dice valued at 20 total.  If I'm town, I get alignment, if I'm mafia I get role.

He also offered to tell me the identity of his Advisor, who was confirmed town.  That cost 10.

I didn't have 20, so I skipped that, and XP claimed Advisor without a counterclaim.  Faust and PPS both received these visits on previous nights, so they also knew that XP was confirmed town.

Not voting for XP last night with that knowledge is pretty darn scummy.

Since XP died, I can now direct the Mentalist to someone.  I am not revealing who that will be.

[ashersky]

Last chance for a Mentalist claim, folks.

[Hydrad]

The Mentalist:

Visited me in the QT, offered to cop a player in exchange for stored dice valued at 20 total.  If I'm town, I get alignment, if I'm mafia I get role.

He also offered to tell me the identity of his Advisor, who was confirmed town.  That cost 10.

I didn't have 20, so I skipped that, and XP claimed Advisor without a counterclaim.  Faust and PPS both received these visits on previous nights, so they also knew that XP was confirmed town.

Not voting for XP last night with that knowledge is pretty darn scummy.

Since XP died, I can now direct the Mentalist to someone.  I am not revealing who that will be.

So we want to try to store dice to be able to cop someone?

[ashersky]

The Mentalist:

Visited me in the QT, offered to cop a player in exchange for stored dice valued at 20 total.  If I'm town, I get alignment, if I'm mafia I get role.

He also offered to tell me the identity of his Advisor, who was confirmed town.  That cost 10.

I didn't have 20, so I skipped that, and XP claimed Advisor without a counterclaim.  Faust and PPS both received these visits on previous nights, so they also knew that XP was confirmed town.

Not voting for XP last night with that knowledge is pretty darn scummy.

Since XP died, I can now direct the Mentalist to someone.  I am not revealing who that will be.

So we want to try to store dice to be able to cop someone?

Having 20 dice total stored allows you to cop someone if visited by the Mentalist, yes.

[Hydrad]

also asher. Did it happen at the end of night or just during.

[ashersky]

also asher. Did it happen at the end of night or just during.

Which part?

Visit was at the beginning of the night.

[faust]

ashersky, why on earth did you play a stored die?

[faust]

Also, what's you role?

[Hydrad]

also asher. Did it happen at the end of night or just during.

Which part?

Visit was at the beginning of the night.

Hmm ok. This makes me think PPS might be scummy. As he would of found out that xp is pretty muc going to be a IC but couldn't kill him on that night as at least one person would doctor him. So he ended up killing him today instead.

The thing with PPS is most of his posts read or feel scummy. But currently I'm finding most of his actions decently towny.

[pingpongsam]

The real question is what do you learn of the remaining players with my flip?

I have been a poor scum target from the get go because I am dice poor and have a useless power.

Thus, I have been free to attract negative attention because the likelihood scum would aim for me was negligible. I had actually hoped to get lynched yesterday to protect a better power in our ranks. E's wagon exploded unexpectedly and I was about 60% sure he was town.

At this point while a mislynch isn't game ending it is far more detrimental than it was yesterday where my mislynch would have been preferable.

The truth is my actions have all been supremely protown because I am town. My decision to vote Faust over XP was clearly shrewd. My posts have been scummy because I was hoping to create a town wagon mislynch against myself leaving scum clearly off wagon.

I think this is not such a good strategy at this point in the game. I accept my motion may have sufficient momentum to make it happen today anyway and that its effectiveness will largely be lost. Today my posts will genuinely be about finding and killing scum and the witch as I think they have proven to be.

Faust gave me some dice so I do have some value today and possibly tomorrow should I survive that long.

Hydrad, please give us a randomized person to roll next. No one should roll until we see the effect if the previous roll from Jimmmmm.

I made a mistake yesterday instead of asking who targeted me I stated that whoever targeted me had to be scum because my dice situation was public. I think chairs scum slipped when he admitted he targeted me. I was the Perfect scum target and worst possible town target.

[Hydrad]

1 - mail-mi
2 - faust
3 - Witherweaver
4 - Beyond Awesome
5 - Ichimaru Gin
6 - pingpongsam

I rolled a 5. I don't know what system you used so I just rolled one in RL.

So ichi's next i guess

[pingpongsam]

There is a dice roll button in the post formatting tools. Enter 1d6 between the created roll tags to have the system roll 1 6-sided dice upon post submission.

[Hydrad]

Ah thanks. Also I noticed that 9 out of 10 of my dice have also been odd numbers. so odd numbers and nothing higher then a 7. Do you think there is another ability that could be causing this or am I just getting horrible luck.

1 - mail-mi
2 - faust
3 - Witherweaver
4 - Beyond Awesome
5 - Ichimaru Gin
6 - pingpongsam

Rolled 1d6 : 5, total 5

Also I did this again so that I can't lie about what I roll. So I guess we can use this one instead.

[faust]

chairs, which 4 numbers did you forbid PPS to roll?

Please answer this before PPS rolls.

[faust]

chairs' and WW's claims seem way too similar. I think one of them is lying.

[Witherweaver]

It's not me.

I'm unclear on the Mentalist thing.  It could be, like, an MPC right?

[Witherweaver]

NPC I mean.

[Hydrad]

One is asher can you confirm that on Day 2 you didn't roll a 1,2,3,4? because thats an easy way to catch a liar.

Also chairs did you not have the chance to use your ability on N0?

PPE:2

[Hydrad]

NPC I mean.

Personally I think it is a NPC

[chairs]

chairs, which 4 numbers did you forbid PPS to roll?

Please answer this before PPS rolls.

2, 7, 1, 5

One is asher can you confirm that on Day 2 you didn't roll a 1,2,3,4? because thats an easy way to catch a liar.

Also chairs did you not have the chance to use your ability on N0?

PPE:2

I think I had the choice to do so, but I did not opt to do it.

[faust]

chairs, which 4 numbers did you forbid PPS to roll?

Please answer this before PPS rolls.

2, 7, 1, 5

One is asher can you confirm that on Day 2 you didn't roll a 1,2,3,4? because thats an easy way to catch a liar.

Also chairs did you not have the chance to use your ability on N0?

PPE:2

I think I had the choice to do so, but I did not opt to do it.

Why did you not use your ability N0?

[Archetype]

chairs, which 4 numbers did you forbid PPS to roll?

Please answer this before PPS rolls.

2, 7, 1, 5

What? Why those? If the 1s and 2s dude came out today, PPS would be unable to roll a valid die. And why risk the 1 and 2 at all? Why not just do something like 3, 4, 5, 6? If the odds-only guy were to come out, you would've taken out 3 usable values. And why 7, and not something lower like 3? And why 5 instead of 4?

[faust]

chairs, which 4 numbers did you forbid PPS to roll?

Please answer this before PPS rolls.

2, 7, 1, 5

What? Why those? If the 1s and 2s dude came out today, PPS would be unable to roll a valid die. And why risk the 1 and 2 at all? Why not just do something like 3, 4, 5, 6? If the odds-only guy were to come out, you would've taken out 3 usable values. And why 7, and not something lower like 3? And why 5 instead of 4?

Arch making some very good points.

[pingpongsam]

Just to be clear the character chairs sent to vist me is called the Dice Vendor, not to be confused in any way with the character XP was sending around called The Mentalist. XP directed the mentalist each night whereas each person visited by the Dice vendor directs who the vendor visits next. That chairs sent the vendor to someone who publicly claimed zero dice is my rub.

[Beyond Awesome]

Vote: Chairs

[Beyond Awesome]

chairs' and WW's claims seem way too similar. I think one of them is lying.

I agree. Also, what is odd is that after I claim my role, other players start claiming they have roles that affect the dice people can roll. Also, PPS has a role that does something similar to what chairs is saying. Plus, the way he has been using his role is scummy, assuming he is telling the truth. None of this makes any sense to me.

[Beyond Awesome]

Play: 7

Ok has someone done something to me? I have rolled 10 dice in total and my highest is a 7 still. Its starting to feel like the odds of this are really low.

It may be that you can only roll up to 7 and Jimmm never told you. After all, I can investigate players and see what they can roll up to. So, that means at least a couple of players can't roll up to 12.

[Beyond Awesome]

chairs, which 4 numbers did you forbid PPS to roll?

Please answer this before PPS rolls.

2, 7, 1, 5

One is asher can you confirm that on Day 2 you didn't roll a 1,2,3,4? because thats an easy way to catch a liar.

Also chairs did you not have the chance to use your ability on N0?

PPE:2

I think I had the choice to do so, but I did not opt to do it.

Scum slip here for sure. How can you think you had the choice? You either do or don't? You could have easily checked your PM to make sure you didn't do it.

Guys, I am pretty certain chairs is scum here.

[pingpongsam]

The only thing bugging me is these are some really stupid things to claim if scum. There are far better fake claims to dream up.

[Witherweaver]

Roles and alignments are unrelated.  Everyone is going to claim their real thing, or something similar, I think.

[Hydrad]

Roles and alignments are unrelated.  Everyone is going to claim their real thing, or something similar, I think.

Unless someone has the dice/halfer ability or the "beastmaster" if those are abilities they can't come out and say it. So they will have to make something up.

[pingpongsam]

Roles and alignments are unrelated.  Everyone is going to claim their real thing, or something similar, I think.

Chairs has no good reason to claim sending me the Dice Vendor. As scum that should have been omitted. As Town it just looks bad. I am thinking only a town conscience could post it. It is not like chairs overlooked the implications he hedged it in his claim.

[faust]

Roles and alignments are unrelated.  Everyone is going to claim their real thing, or something similar, I think.

Unless someone has the dice/halfer ability or the "beastmaster" if those are abilities they can't come out and say it. So they will have to make something up.

Also a good point. Every role we can confirm is a role that is not dice halfer, and thus helps us PoE scum.

[Witherweaver]

Roles and alignments are unrelated.  Everyone is going to claim their real thing, or something similar, I think.

Unless someone has the dice/halfer ability or the "beastmaster" if those are abilities they can't come out and say it. So they will have to make something up.

Yes, that's right.

[Witherweaver]

Roles and alignments are unrelated.  Everyone is going to claim their real thing, or something similar, I think.

Chairs has no good reason to claim sending me the Dice Vendor. As scum that should have been omitted. As Town it just looks bad. I am thinking only a town conscience could post it. It is not like chairs overlooked the implications he hedged it in his claim.

So why is your dude a Dice Vendor and Ash's a Mentalist?

[Witherweaver]

Roles and alignments are unrelated.  Everyone is going to claim their real thing, or something similar, I think.

Unless someone has the dice/halfer ability or the "beastmaster" if those are abilities they can't come out and say it. So they will have to make something up.

Also a good point. Every role we can confirm is a role that is not dice halfer, and thus helps us PoE scum.

I didn't say my dice were halved, by the way

[Witherweaver]

What did PPS and BA lose?  5 and 4?

[Hydrad]

Hmm so maybe there isn't a dice halfer but there is at least another role that is stealing dice it seems. And it seems to be much higher numbers then the theif.

My guess is this is a dice destroyer? So its higher numbers but the destroyer doesn't gain any of the dice.

[Witherweaver]

My guess is its simply a destroyer.  I lost 4.. PPS and BA reported losing similar amounts, so maybe in the 3-5ish range

[Beyond Awesome]

What did PPS and BA lose?  5 and 4?

I lost 6.

Also, did chairs say he was a dice vendor? In my first PM, Jimmm refers to dice as weapons hence why I am called an Arms Inspector. So, wouldn't the dice vendor more likely be called something like Arms Vendor? I guess this could have also been an oversight by Jimmm. I dunno.

[Beyond Awesome]

Never mind. He said he was the Manipulator? Sorry. I am at work right now, so I am skimming at the moment. What's this about a dice vendor? Is that what it is actually called?

[Beyond Awesome]

My guess is its simply a destroyer.  I lost 4.. PPS and BA reported losing similar amounts, so maybe in the 3-5ish range

I think Faust should also say how much dice he gave you, if any. I'm assuming you actually lost more than 4 dice because faust probably targeted you.

[faust]

My guess is its simply a destroyer.  I lost 4.. PPS and BA reported losing similar amounts, so maybe in the 3-5ish range

I think Faust should also say how much dice he gave you, if any. I'm assuming you actually lost more than 4 dice because faust probably targeted you.

Anything I need to claim, I will claim last.

[pingpongsam]

Roles and alignments are unrelated.  Everyone is going to claim their real thing, or something similar, I think.

Chairs has no good reason to claim sending me the Dice Vendor. As scum that should have been omitted. As Town it just looks bad. I am thinking only a town conscience could post it. It is not like chairs overlooked the implications he hedged it in his claim.

So why is your dude a Dice Vendor and Ash's a Mentalist?

I have been visited by both. XP sent the mentalist to Faust, then me and then ashersky. When XP died ashersky inherited the ability to send the mentalist on visits.

The dice vendor has no historical record of who he has visited like the mentalist does. If you get visited by the dice vendor you then pick who he visits next. No one but chairs has claimed who they sent the vendor to. I have claimed to send but not to who because I do not want to create a favorable target for scum. A good question might be who sent the dice vendor to chairs and why...

[Archetype]

Ok, totally reread.

I have a higher towread on BA and WW. WW because of his 12 yesterday and BA because I got a frustrated Townie vibe from him yesterday. I find his claim very odd, but his reaction to everyone else's reactions seemed very genuine. I also have a higher scumread on liopoil because of how quickly he jumps on people. Reads to me like scum grasping at straws for a mislynch.

[Hydrad]

I'm starting to get a slight scum read on lio also. Hes also the only one really against claiming. So maybe he has one of the scum abilities and is scared of getting caught in a lie?

[ashersky]

I used a stored die because I wanted to play a high die against whatever the attack did.

I also believe The Mentalist is not a role but a character played by the Mod.  Was hoping scum might try to claim it.

[ashersky]

Arms Inspector is still the fakest sounding role ever.

I did not role a prohibited die value that chairs mentioned.  I'd add that I've never rolled them, and they included 1 and 2.  Sounds like a possible scum power to erase values every night for the rest of the game, and he's slowly ensuring the 1/2 only monster is undefeatable.

I wonder if BA would see missing numbers that chairs deletes?

[Hydrad]

So asher I think its your turn to claim if we are following fausts list. Unless you claimed already and I missed it.

[Hydrad]

I think thats more what BA's power is for. Its just kinda to see what people have been affected with so that we can work with that knowledge.

[pingpongsam]

I used a stored die because I wanted to play a high die against whatever the attack did.

I also believe The Mentalist is not a role but a character played by the Mod.  Was hoping scum might try to claim it.

Your claim to be the new advisor seems off. Does this replace your current role or do you now have 2 roles? I smell a scum plot to claim being IC as the advisor is known to be town aligned.

[ashersky]

I will claim when I feel it is appropriate.  Definitely today, but I want to see more thoughts/discussion on what we've all put out there so far.

[ashersky]

I used a stored die because I wanted to play a high die against whatever the attack did.

I also believe The Mentalist is not a role but a character played by the Mod.  Was hoping scum might try to claim it.

Your claim to be the new advisor seems off. Does this replace your current role or do you now have 2 roles? I smell a scum plot to claim being IC as the advisor is known to be town aligned.

In addition.

To paraphrase: since The advisor died, you can send the mentalist on to someone by posting who before day ends.

Confirmable when someone gets a visit, don't know if I'll be listed as advisor at the bottom.  I don't think I will, as I'm not actually anointed "New Advisor" by title.

[Hydrad]

Ok well right now I will say I believe everyones roles. Even BA's.

I will say though chairs ability usage feels really scummy. But its hard to tell if its a scum trying to sabotage or if its just a towny making poor choices.

PPE

[faust]

I will claim when I feel it is appropriate.  Definitely today, but I want to see more thoughts/discussion on what we've all put out there so far.

Well, I do have some thoughts, but it would be unwise sharing them before everyone has claimed.

[faust]

I used a stored die because I wanted to play a high die against whatever the attack did.

I also believe The Mentalist is not a role but a character played by the Mod.  Was hoping scum might try to claim it.

Isn't it more important to get investigation results? Which you are now unable to get?

[ashersky]

I used a stored die because I wanted to play a high die against whatever the attack did.

I also believe The Mentalist is not a role but a character played by the Mod.  Was hoping scum might try to claim it.

Isn't it more important to get investigation results? Which you are now unable to get?

I could only investigate last night, and I didn't have 20.  I can't send him to myself.

[ashersky]

Plus, monster killing has been pretty darn important.

[faust]

ash, what's keeping you from claiming? Your stretching this out is scummy.

[ashersky]

ash, what's keeping you from claiming? Your stretching this out is scummy.

I don't trust you and refuse to do what you say.

[pingpongsam]

Ashersky's responses of late have struck me as town enough which is counter to how I have perceived him for the rest of the game. As such vote: liopoil

[Archetype]

Ashersky's responses of late have struck me as town enough which is counter to how I have perceived him for the rest of the game. As such vote: liopoil

I don't. I see this as scum!ash seeing that he's getting a towny read from people from his brash scumplay.

[Beyond Awesome]

Arms Inspector is still the fakest sounding role ever.

I did not role a prohibited die value that chairs mentioned.  I'd add that I've never rolled them, and they included 1 and 2.  Sounds like a possible scum power to erase values every night for the rest of the game, and he's slowly ensuring the 1/2 only monster is undefeatable.

I wonder if BA would see missing numbers that chairs deletes?

I believe I would see deleted numbers since according to my role I see the numbers a player is able to roll the following day. So, if those numbers were deleted, they would not show up. I could double check with Jimmm, but I'm pretty sure based on the wording of my PM that is something my investigation would pick up on.

[Beyond Awesome]

ash, what's keeping you from claiming? Your stretching this out is scummy.

I don't trust you and refuse to do what you say.

Why don't you trust Faust?

[ashersky]

ash, what's keeping you from claiming? Your stretching this out is scummy.

I don't trust you and refuse to do what you say.

Why don't you trust Faust?

Why should I?  He's been leading town around like he's king of the world with zero reason.  He's not confirmed town by anyone.

He's pretty clearly scum leading town around like slobbering puppies, and he's wielding his power like that evil guy from Aladdin.  Or, you know, his namesake.

I've seen nothing redeeming in his play that confers on him God Emperor status.  I suggest you all temper for hero worship a bit.

[Witherweaver]

ash, what's keeping you from claiming? Your stretching this out is scummy.

I don't trust you and refuse to do what you say.

Why don't you trust Faust?

Why should I?  He's been leading town around like he's king of the world with zero reason.  He's not confirmed town by anyone.

He's pretty clearly scum leading town around like slobbering puppies, and he's wielding his power like that evil guy from Aladdin.  Or, you know, his namesake.

I've seen nothing redeeming in his play that confers on him God Emperor status.  I suggest you all temper for hero worship a bit.

Doesn't explain at all why you claiming would be bad.

[ashersky]

And I've stated clearly that I want to claim.  Just not at the orders of Emperor Faustus Aurelius IV.

[Witherweaver]

So what order do you want the claiming to be in?

[ashersky]

So what order do you want the claiming to be in?

Someone should do a post count.  There must be some terrible lurkers (Arch?) that are scum hiding.

[Witherweaver]

So what order do you want the claiming to be in?

Someone should do a post count.  There must be some terrible lurkers (Arch?) that are scum hiding.

Arch has been fairly active since he joined.  But sure, why not.

Oh, hey!  You're someone!

[ashersky]

I'm on iPad.  I can do one tomorrow.

[Witherweaver]

Okay.  I'm mobile too.

[Hydrad]

is there an easy way to post count? or is it literally go through the whole thing and count the posts.

[ashersky]

is there an easy way to post count? or is it literally go through the whole thing and count the posts.

1.  Click the "Print" option to get it all in text mode.
2.  Ctrl-F "Post by: username" and record the number of instances it finds.
3.  Post your list.

[Hydrad]

so it will be a bit inaccurate since it will count if your name is used in a post even though you didn't post it?

[ashersky]

so it will be a bit inaccurate since it will count if your name is used in a post even though you didn't post it?

No, because no one types post by: username in text.

[Witherweaver]

by: Witherweaver

Padding the count!

[Hydrad]

so it will be a bit inaccurate since it will count if your name is used in a post even though you didn't post it?

No, because no one types post by: username in text.

oh i'm an idiot I misunderstood.

[Hydrad]

post count

ashersky:125
chairs: 39
mail-mi:37 archetype: 8
faust: 236
WW: 273
BA: 213
ichi: 153
liopoil: 126
Hydrad: 188
PPS: 151

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, Ash going by post count, you are second lowest behind chairs who is super lurking. Although, lio is almost tied with you, and to me, he has sort of felt like not quite a lurker, but almost a lurker in a sense.

[Beyond Awesome]

Although, I feel like lio has been much more of a lurker than Ash. Ash been a bit bold at times. Whereas, lio seems like he wants no one to notice him. He was on neither e's or volt's wagon. He has not done anything to really stand out. I feel like he is kind of playing it safe.

Either way, I feel like Ash and lio should be next to claim if we are going to go by post count.

[ashersky]

Ignoring arch-mi?

[ashersky]

I'd go after them (arch and lio).

[Beyond Awesome]

Ignoring arch-mi?

Good point about Arch. I did not bring him up since we already saw the ability used once, although, there could be more to the ability than we know. And, we also don't know the name of his role.

[Beyond Awesome]

Actually, mail-mi pretty much faded into the background after he used his power D2. That is definitely something to take note of.

[Beyond Awesome]

I'd go after them (arch and lio).

Also, should it really matter if you go before or after them? I am of the opinion all three of you should claim today. So, to me, it doesn't matter who claims first. I kind of feel like you are stalling a bit here.

[Witherweaver]

It somewhat matters.  Scum wants to go last to judge what they can/need to lie about. 

[Archetype]

I don't really care about the order for claiming.

I'm a Tactician. If I didn't roll or play any dice the previous day, the number of dice I roll the following is doubled. I may also play or store second die.

Fun fact: This is the exact same role I had the first game

[Witherweaver]

The claims must flow.

[Beyond Awesome]

Actually, mail-mi pretty much faded into the background after he used his power D2. That is definitely something to take note of.

Oh wait. Duh! Mail-Mi had to be replaced. That's why he wasn't active much of D2. Forgot about that.

[faust]

Vote: ashersky

It's D3 and all you have to offer is "go after lurkers"? Also, if you think I'm scummy, why don't you vote for me?

[ashersky]

Vote: ashersky

It's D3 and all you have to offer is "go after lurkers"? Also, if you think I'm scummy, why don't you vote for me?

That's what scum wants, my vote.  Safest thing for them.

[liopoil]

this massclaim makes no sense it all, we are gaining nothing from this.  I'll claim, but as faust and maybe ichimaru gin know, my claiming doesn't exactly help town. Does it hurt town? Not that much, but why bother?

Guys, I'm not lurking, I VLA right now, and before then I was providing content. People say that I am trying not to be noticed, well, in that case you just haven't been noticing me. I've said stuff. And I definitely have more content than ashersky, all he does is tunnel me and make silly statements without explanation. That's not helpful.

Mail-mi was scummy I think in his lurking, and I don't give him too much towncred for his useless two dice. Archetype has provided plenty of content for how long he has been in the game though.

How many people have claimed so far this game? 10 or something? I cannot think of a single one that helped town. Their role may have helped town, but their claim did not.

[pingpongsam]

Faust gave me some dice. Now, I know that carries zero water for anyone who doesn't know I am town but I do know that and he seems to have given dice to my other town reads. That pretty much confirms him as town to me. I already had a huge town read on him for his handling of the mentalist visit I got right after him. But the gained dice is simply too far away from what scum would do today where I was otherwise impotent.

[pingpongsam]

Where is Jimmmmm?

[liopoil]

yeah, I agree, faust is town almost certainly.

[faust]

this massclaim makes no sense it all, we are gaining nothing from this.  I'll claim, but as faust and maybe ichimaru gin know, my claiming doesn't exactly help town. Does it hurt town? Not that much, but why bother?

Guys, I'm not lurking, I VLA right now, and before then I was providing content. People say that I am trying not to be noticed, well, in that case you just haven't been noticing me. I've said stuff. And I definitely have more content than ashersky, all he does is tunnel me and make silly statements without explanation. That's not helpful.

Mail-mi was scummy I think in his lurking, and I don't give him too much towncred for his useless two dice. Archetype has provided plenty of content for how long he has been in the game though.

How many people have claimed so far this game? 10 or something? I cannot think of a single one that helped town. Their role may have helped town, but their claim did not.

Here's the thing about the mass claim. We know that there is one dice stealing role, the one that attacked BA and PPS. Theory is, most roles are confirmable. (For example, chairs' role is confirmable in conjunction with BA's role, same goes for WW) Thus we can narrow down the pool for that scum role. Now I know what role you have, so I really don't need you to claim, but I'm not sure that my word is enough to convince everyone not to lynch you.

[pingpongsam]

this massclaim makes no sense it all, we are gaining nothing from this.  I'll claim, but as faust and maybe ichimaru gin know, my claiming doesn't exactly help town. Does it hurt town? Not that much, but why bother?

Guys, I'm not lurking, I VLA right now, and before then I was providing content. People say that I am trying not to be noticed, well, in that case you just haven't been noticing me. I've said stuff. And I definitely have more content than ashersky, all he does is tunnel me and make silly statements without explanation. That's not helpful.

Mail-mi was scummy I think in his lurking, and I don't give him too much towncred for his useless two dice. Archetype has provided plenty of content for how long he has been in the game though.

How many people have claimed so far this game? 10 or something? I cannot think of a single one that helped town. Their role may have helped town, but their claim did not.

Here's the thing about the mass claim. We know that there is one dice stealing role, the one that attacked BA and PPS. Theory is, most roles are confirmable. (For example, chairs' role is confirmable in conjunction with BA's role, same goes for WW) Thus we can narrow down the pool for that scum role. Now I know what role you have, so I really don't need you to claim, but I'm not sure that my word is enough to convince everyone not to lynch you.

Are you saying liopoil is conf town to you?

[pingpongsam]

Also, if that is what you're saying, can you give some clue as to how you came about the information?

[Hydrad]

Also, if that is what you're saying, can you give some clue as to how you came about the information?

I think fausts ability gives some sort of information when he is visited. I'm not 100% sure but thats my guess.

[Jimmmmm]

Hydrad plays a 7
Score: 16

Vote Count 3.1

pingpongsam (1): ashersky
chairs (3): liopoil, Archetype, Beyond Awesome
liopoil (1): pingpongsam
ashersky (1): faust

not voting (4): mail-mi, Witherweaver, Ichimaru Gin, Hydrad

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 19 at 3am forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 21 at 3am forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 16

[pingpongsam]

So, Ichi is up and we need him to play an even number.

[pingpongsam]

And then randomize who rolls next.

[Witherweaver]

Can I just play next instead of Ichi?

[Hydrad]

Can I just play next instead of Ichi?

Personally I think its fine if you do.

[pingpongsam]

I'm not a cop so I can't be the mafia police, lol. I was just trying to make sure there was no way for scum to game the rolls and to make sure things worked with well with the new roll resolution rules.

I figure if Jimmmmm is around we should make use of that fact.

[Hydrad]

Ya. also I think ichi has been gone for the past day or so. So if we wait on him it could be a bit.

[Witherweaver]

Play: 12

[pingpongsam]

Well that was towny.

[Jimmmmm]

Witherweaver plays a 12
Score: 28

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. Here for a sec. Haven't had internet access til now and cell service is pretty weak where I am.
I've been able to follow a little bit, and I will be back home (where I can post) in approx. 4 hours.

I see WW already rolled. Understandable as you guys had no idea when I'd be back and I've been gone for a good while.
Anyway, I'll be back soon and get on top of all of my games then.

PPE: 2

[pingpongsam]

If no one is opposed I will roll next. Shooting for a high odd number.

[pingpongsam]

Awaiting roll results.

[pingpongsam]

Play: 9

[Ichimaru Gin]

And. I am now officially back. Should I roll my dice now?

[Hydrad]

I think you should. I believe we want a even number now

[Archetype]

So, the score is at 28 (37 with PPS role). Should I roll? Or do you guys think I should try to double play tomorrow?

We need 23 more to kill the monster. And there's 3 (Ichimaru Gin, faust, and myself. So, yeah. 3.) more people that need to roll. That means each person must roll a 7 or 8. And then we have Ichimaru's reroll power.

I guess we'll just wait and see to know if I'll have to roll. I find Ichimaru and faust pretty towny, so I'm alright letting them be the people to decide whether or not I play a die.

[ashersky]

Can someone please point me to where faust got so many town points from everyone?  What has he actually done that's towny?

He's got town reads from my top scumreads (lio, arch-mi) too.

But it just seems like everybody swallowed a gallon of faust-flavored koolaid.

[pingpongsam]

Can someone please point me to where faust got so many town points from everyone?  What has he actually done that's towny?

He's got town reads from my top scumreads (lio, arch-mi) too.

But it just seems like everybody swallowed a gallon of faust-flavored koolaid.

The odd thing to me about this is that you got the mentalist visit too. Look at faust's D1 play regarding this and tell me how that is not a town response. You implicate that he isn't town but won't actually say he isn't and put your vote where your insinuation is.

[ashersky]

Can someone please point me to where faust got so many town points from everyone?  What has he actually done that's towny?

He's got town reads from my top scumreads (lio, arch-mi) too.

But it just seems like everybody swallowed a gallon of faust-flavored koolaid.

The odd thing to me about this is that you got the mentalist visit too. Look at faust's D1 play regarding this and tell me how that is not a town response. You implicate that he isn't town but won't actually say he isn't and put your vote where your insinuation is.

What was faust's D1 play regarding the Mentalist?  I'm interested, because there was zero talk of the Mentalist until Day 2.  So for you to claim that Faust did something Mentalist-related on Day 1 would mean you or he or both had insider information regarding the role BEFORE it was made public on Day 2.

[ashersky]

For reference, on Day 2, XP claimed to target Faust N0 and PPS on N1.

Faust then asks "Xerxes, do you have any information about a role called "The Advisor"?"

XP confirms he is the Advisor.

That's the extent of "Faust's play regarding this."

[ashersky]

So no, I see zero redeeming town actions in that one question where he OUTS XP's role to the game.

[Witherweaver]

XP and Faust dropped something in cryptic messages on Day 1.

[liopoil]

Faust declared himself 95% sure XP was town on D1 based off of XP targeting him. Faust also persuaded me away from voting for XP. did you really miss this ashersky?

[ashersky]

Faust declared himself 95% sure XP was town on D1 based off of XP targeting him. Faust also persuaded me away from voting for XP. did you really miss this ashersky?

But that says nothing about alignment, people.  If faust is scum, of course he knows that XP is town.  And he didn't know that XP targeted him UNTIL D2 when XP claimed.

[ashersky]

Faust declared himself 95% sure XP was town on D1 based off of XP targeting him. Faust also persuaded me away from voting for XP. did you really miss this ashersky?

But that says nothing about alignment, people.  If faust is scum, of course he knows that XP is town.  And he didn't know that XP targeted him UNTIL D2 when XP claimed.

And if Faust is claiming to have learned the identity of the Advisor on N0, that's hard to believe.  It cost 10 in store dice value to learn that information, and we couldn't roll dice before Day 1.

If anything, all this points to Faust being SCUM, as he claims to have known information he couldn't know.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, the score is at 28 (37 with PPS role). Should I roll? Or do you guys think I should try to double play tomorrow?

We need 23 more to kill the monster. And there's 3 (Ichimaru Gin, faust, and myself. So, yeah. 3.) more people that need to roll. That means each person must roll a 7 or 8. And then we have Ichimaru's reroll power.

I guess we'll just wait and see to know if I'll have to roll. I find Ichimaru and faust pretty towny, so I'm alright letting them be the people to decide whether or not I play a die.

I also have not yet rolled either. So, you can hold off until everyone else has rolled and see what happens.

[liopoil]

Ash, you clearly have not read their exchange on D1.

[ashersky]

Ash, you clearly have not read their exchange on D1.

I opened the Print screen and ctrl-F for Advisor and Mentalist, neither of which come up until D2.

[liopoil]

Yes, they did not use those terms on D1.

[ashersky]

This is fun, XP on D1:

This is really what I like about RMM games. I think I can piece together lots of things, but things are still complicated.

BTW, if I claim, I would be able to make myself an IC, but then I'd die and scum would get some information.

Right now, I'm very sure that PPS and faust are both town. I also think ash is town, but I'm not as sure.

Last, perhaps if both PPS and I claim, scum won't be able to kill both ICs in a single night, so we'll have two today and 1 tomorrow. How useful is that?

The three people named are the three he targeted with the Mentalist.

[ashersky]

This is stupid. Now that you said it, you are going to die, so you could as well full claim. Other than that, I think you best stop talking about roles.

Here is faust's response to that post by XP.  Wow, so towny.

This is about as scummy as it gets, people.

[ashersky]

That's it for "interaction" around his role.  That's based on ctrl-f for XP's posts.

Please someone point out what I'm missing, because all I see is a one-liner rolefish from faust.

[liopoil]

Come on ash, that's not it, keep reading. I can't quote it for you on my phone.

[ashersky]

Come on ash, that's not it, keep reading. I can't quote it for you on my phone.

For you, a series of quotes:

XP:

Okay, tell me if you know of a particular role. I've thought about it for the long night and trust me, this is definitely worth it. If you know about but are not the role that I'm thinking about, say so.

Faust:

This seems genuine. I trust that you know what you're doing.

I know about the role you seem to be talking about.

XP:

I think I know what alignment someone has based on their role, but I probably shouldn't trust my guess that much.

I'm getting towny vibes from both Faust and ash.
vote: IG

XP:

This is really what I like about RMM games. I think I can piece together lots of things, but things are still complicated.

BTW, if I claim, I would be able to make myself an IC, but then I'd die and scum would get some information.

Right now, I'm very sure that PPS and faust are both town. I also think ash is town, but I'm not as sure.

Last, perhaps if both PPS and I claim, scum won't be able to kill both ICs in a single night, so we'll have two today and 1 tomorrow. How useful is that?

Faust:

This is stupid. Now that you said it, you are going to die, so you could as well full claim. Other than that, I think you best stop talking about roles.

That's the entire "conversation" on XP's role.

[Jimmmmm]

pingpongsam plays a 9
Score: 37

[ashersky]

Liopoil actually votes XP after that series, btw.  Says he thinks it's all fake based on OP information.

[faust]

Are you saying liopoil is conf town to you?

I'm saying I'm rather sure I know what lio's role does, and it's not dice destruction.

...unless... I just thought of something. I guess it would help to hear lio's claim.

[pingpongsam]

Of this I feel confident, one of ashersky or liopoil is scum and likely not both. Which one to lynch I am wholly lost on. Lately I am preferring ashersky but I am having trouble believing scum!ashersky would be so obtuse.

[pingpongsam]

Also, I still can't wrap my head around how a town!chairs would take the actions he did; just inscrutably scummy actions.

[pingpongsam]

After some deliberation in the shower I believe ashersky won't directly affront Faust because he knows he will flip town and then he will be the obvious lynch the next day. Instead he wants to paint anyone, like myself, who champions Faust as town as either being lazy and stupid or the scum partner.

Vote: ashersky

[liopoil]

Are you saying liopoil is conf town to you?

I'm saying I'm rather sure I know what lio's role does, and it's not dice destruction.

...unless... I just thought of something. I guess it would help to hear lio's claim.

yeah, I don't think any of our claims rule us out as a dice destructor. Which is why massclaim is bad. You don't know the details of how my role works, but you know the important bit.

[faust]

Are you saying liopoil is conf town to you?

I'm saying I'm rather sure I know what lio's role does, and it's not dice destruction.

...unless... I just thought of something. I guess it would help to hear lio's claim.

yeah, I don't think any of our claims rule us out as a dice destructor. Which is why massclaim is bad. You don't know the details of how my role works, but you know the important bit.

You can confirm that you are not responsible for the dice being taken though?

[faust]

I need to find something out...

Did anyone's supply change by an amount of 1,3 or 4 tonight?

[faust]

Or zero or negative, for that matter.

[pingpongsam]

Based on my roll results, charis' claim of manipulating my dice appears to be true. That said, looking at the forthcoming monsters I have to say he picked some especially scummy numbers to prevent me from rolling.

[faust]

Are you saying liopoil is conf town to you?

I'm saying I'm rather sure I know what lio's role does, and it's not dice destruction.

...unless... I just thought of something. I guess it would help to hear lio's claim.

yeah, I don't think any of our claims rule us out as a dice destructor. Which is why massclaim is bad. You don't know the details of how my role works, but you know the important bit.

Don't you agree that chairs can't be both Manipulator and Dice Destructor? And we can confirm his Manipulator role.

[faust]

Hydrad, if it is possible for you to target me again tonight (and your role does what I think it does), that would be much appreciated.

[Hydrad]

My supply changed by one of those numbers tonight.

Also Faust I don't think my ability will be as useful as it seems you think it will be.

[faust]

My supply changed by one of those numbers tonight.

Also Faust I don't think my ability will be as useful as it seems you think it will be.

You were attacked last night. I sent you 7 dice.

[Hydrad]

Ok I actually did count wrong but ya I did lose a few if you sent me 7

[Hydrad]

And 7 dice? That must of been a way bigger dice pile then I thought

[faust]

So.... I think this makes Hydrad easily my top town read.

I also think that at most one out of PPS/BA can be scum, because the dice destructor can probably not target himself.

[faust]

Okay, time for me to claim:

I am a Town Thief, formerly Universal Backup.

My role lets me inherit the first dice-related PR that dies. Which was e's role. I targeted WW tonight, because he was my top scum read.

[pingpongsam]

Okay, time for me to claim:

I am a Town Thief, formerly Universal Backup.

My role lets me inherit the first dice-related PR that dies. Which was e's role. I targeted WW tonight, because he was my top scum read.

Are you saying that prior to e dying you had no power to speak of?

[faust]

Okay, time for me to claim:

I am a Town Thief, formerly Universal Backup.

My role lets me inherit the first dice-related PR that dies. Which was e's role. I targeted WW tonight, because he was my top scum read.

Are you saying that prior to e dying you had no power to speak of?

That is correct.

[pingpongsam]

I targeted WW tonight, because he was my top scum read.

How do you now read WW?

[faust]

I targeted WW tonight, because he was my top scum read.

How do you now read WW?

I still think he's scummy. He claimed a role that is almost purely negative utility, even more so now that scum knows what it is, and that can't be confirmed by anyone because he claims to have never used it. I don't think roles in this game are designed as to be negative utility for town. For example, the Town Thief also seems to have very limited utility, but it does other things that are good for town.

[faust]

I want to hear ashersky claim and sort things out frm there on, though. So we can see the full picture.

[ashersky]

Okay, time for me to claim:

I am a Town Thief, formerly Universal Backup.

My role lets me inherit the first dice-related PR that dies. Which was e's role. I targeted WW tonight, because he was my top scum read.

vote: faust

I see now why you wanted everyone to claim ahead of you.

[ashersky]

I'm also ignoring PPS at this point.  That shower comment crossed a line.


I still like lio as scum, as well.

[faust]

Okay, time for me to claim:

I am a Town Thief, formerly Universal Backup.

My role lets me inherit the first dice-related PR that dies. Which was e's role. I targeted WW tonight, because he was my top scum read.

vote: faust

I see now why you wanted everyone to claim ahead of you.

Yeah? Why is that?

[ashersky]

Universal Backup is a risky, but pretty awesome fakeclaim.  You can't be sure it isn't already in the game, so you were waiting for someone else to claim it.

That's a believable scum narrative for you.

I'm not seeing the towniness that others have argued about you.  I'm not buying it.  I know I'm being a bit shraeyish here, but I know what I know.

[faust]

Universal Backup is a risky, but pretty awesome fakeclaim.  You can't be sure it isn't already in the game, so you were waiting for someone else to claim it.

That's a believable scum narrative for you.

I'm not seeing the towniness that others have argued about you.  I'm not buying it.  I know I'm being a bit shraeyish here, but I know what I know.

But my claim is confirmable.

[ashersky]

Universal Backup is a risky, but pretty awesome fakeclaim.  You can't be sure it isn't already in the game, so you were waiting for someone else to claim it.

That's a believable scum narrative for you.

I'm not seeing the towniness that others have argued about you.  I'm not buying it.  I know I'm being a bit shraeyish here, but I know what I know.

But my claim is confirmable.

You mean if WW agrees he had dice stolen?  If he's your partner, he can confirm for you.

[faust]

I mean we can confirm it tomorrow. No need to lynch me today.

[ashersky]

Remember how we were talking about multiple thieves for awhile?  Scum Thief can now claim UB inherited Town Thief.

You had quite the long post on yuma's claim way back when.  It talked about "if I was the Town Thief...I would x, y, z" and whatnot.  It was very involved for someone who wasn't a thief already.

I would assume you are actually a Thief, just the other one.

[faust]

Remember how we were talking about multiple thieves for awhile?  Scum Thief can now claim UB inherited Town Thief.

You had quite the long post on yuma's claim way back when.  It talked about "if I was the Town Thief...I would x, y, z" and whatnot.  It was very involved for someone who wasn't a thief already.

I would assume you are actually a Thief, just the other one.

You believe, as an experienced mod, that Jimmmmm would put the same role twice into this game?

[ashersky]

Remember how we were talking about multiple thieves for awhile?  Scum Thief can now claim UB inherited Town Thief.

You had quite the long post on yuma's claim way back when.  It talked about "if I was the Town Thief...I would x, y, z" and whatnot.  It was very involved for someone who wasn't a thief already.

I would assume you are actually a Thief, just the other one.

You believe, as an experienced mod, that Jimmmmm would put the same role twice into this game?

You mean would he re-use Scum Thief?  Sure he would.  It's pretty well suited for a game around dice.

[faust]

Plus, dice have been taken from more than one player tonight. How do you explain that?

[faust]

Remember how we were talking about multiple thieves for awhile?  Scum Thief can now claim UB inherited Town Thief.

You had quite the long post on yuma's claim way back when.  It talked about "if I was the Town Thief...I would x, y, z" and whatnot.  It was very involved for someone who wasn't a thief already.

I would assume you are actually a Thief, just the other one.

You believe, as an experienced mod, that Jimmmmm would put the same role twice into this game?

You mean would he re-use Scum Thief?  Sure he would.  It's pretty well suited for a game around dice.

Roles are independent of alignment.

[ashersky]

Dunno.

Taken, destroyed, who knows?  We don't know if they were stolen or destroyed, right?

I mean, if you get half+1 to believe you, you're all set anyway.  Just stating my opinion.

Lynching me is a possibility.  You'll lose the Mentalist, though.

I'm out for the night, back on tomorrow.

[ashersky]

Remember how we were talking about multiple thieves for awhile?  Scum Thief can now claim UB inherited Town Thief.

You had quite the long post on yuma's claim way back when.  It talked about "if I was the Town Thief...I would x, y, z" and whatnot.  It was very involved for someone who wasn't a thief already.

I would assume you are actually a Thief, just the other one.

You believe, as an experienced mod, that Jimmmmm would put the same role twice into this game?

You mean would he re-use Scum Thief?  Sure he would.  It's pretty well suited for a game around dice.

Roles are independent of alignment.

Then how do YOU explain multiple people losing dice at night?  You are arguing that a town thief and scum thief can't both exist while arguing that two thieves exist at the same time.

Now I'm really out.

[faust]

Then how do YOU explain multiple people losing dice at night?  You are arguing that a town thief and scum thief can't both exist while arguing that two thieves exist at the same time.

Now I'm really out.

I think the second role taking dice is not a Thief.

[Witherweaver]

Plus, dice have been taken from more than one player tonight. How do you explain that?

Who was the other one?

[Witherweaver]

I targeted WW tonight, because he was my top scum read.

How do you now read WW?

I still think he's scummy. He claimed a role that is almost purely negative utility, even more so now that scum knows what it is, and that can't be confirmed by anyone because he claims to have never used it. I don't think roles in this game are designed as to be negative utility for town. For example, the Town Thief also seems to have very limited utility, but it does other things that are good for town.

As I stated, they're not negative utility for the next two monsters we have to face. I intend to use a shot tonight.

[Witherweaver]

Faust declared himself 95% sure XP was town on D1 based off of XP targeting him. Faust also persuaded me away from voting for XP. did you really miss this ashersky?

But that says nothing about alignment, people.  If faust is scum, of course he knows that XP is town.  And he didn't know that XP targeted him UNTIL D2 when XP claimed.

And if Faust is claiming to have learned the identity of the Advisor on N0, that's hard to believe.  It cost 10 in store dice value to learn that information, and we couldn't roll dice before Day 1.

If anything, all this points to Faust being SCUM, as he claims to have known information he couldn't know.

So the Mentalist lets you pay dice to learn the identity of the Advisor?

[pingpongsam]

Correct, but faust never claimed having discovered the identity of the Advisor.

[Witherweaver]

Then what is this Dice Vendor that came up?

[pingpongsam]

Then what is this Dice Vendor that came up?

When the dice vendor visits you have the opportunity to swap your stored dice for new supply dice. arch-mi should be able to confirm that I sent him the Vendor last night.

[faust]

Plus, dice have been taken from more than one player tonight. How do you explain that?

Who was the other one?

Hydrad.

[faust]

I targeted WW tonight, because he was my top scum read.

How do you now read WW?

I still think he's scummy. He claimed a role that is almost purely negative utility, even more so now that scum knows what it is, and that can't be confirmed by anyone because he claims to have never used it. I don't think roles in this game are designed as to be negative utility for town. For example, the Town Thief also seems to have very limited utility, but it does other things that are good for town.

As I stated, they're not negative utility for the next two monsters we have to face. I intend to use a shot tonight.

Oh yeah, I forgot to add that. You claim to be more helpful in the future. So your claim has everything scum want from a fakeclaim: No responsibility, no way of confirmation, a penalty for lynching you, the prospect of being important in the future.

Also, how do you know what "the next two monsters" will be? There are three on the list still missing. And the utility against the Goblin is very marginal. Yes, it makes it more likely to get an odd value, but it also takes away the highest possible odd value.

[Witherweaver]

Ok I actually did count wrong but ya I did lose a few if you sent me 7

What did your dice supply change by over last night?

[Witherweaver]

I targeted WW tonight, because he was my top scum read.

How do you now read WW?

I still think he's scummy. He claimed a role that is almost purely negative utility, even more so now that scum knows what it is, and that can't be confirmed by anyone because he claims to have never used it. I don't think roles in this game are designed as to be negative utility for town. For example, the Town Thief also seems to have very limited utility, but it does other things that are good for town.

As I stated, they're not negative utility for the next two monsters we have to face. I intend to use a shot tonight.

Oh yeah, I forgot to add that. You claim to be more helpful in the future. So your claim has everything scum want from a fakeclaim: No responsibility, no way of confirmation, a penalty for lynching you, the prospect of being important in the future.

Also, how do you know what "the next two monsters" will be? There are three on the list still missing. And the utility against the Goblin is very marginal. Yes, it makes it more likely to get an odd value, but it also takes away the highest possible odd value.

There are two on the list missing, right?  The one that needs 1's and 2's and the one that negates even rolls.

There is not a penalty to lynching me if we need lower rolls for the next two days.

[faust]

There are two on the list missing, right?  The one that needs 1's and 2's and the one that negates even rolls.

There is not a penalty to lynching me if we need lower rolls for the next two days.

There's also the Dragon that has some weird "play successive numbers" clause.

[Witherweaver]

I guess you have a point about the Goblin.  But

1/12(1-2+3-4+...+11-12) = -1/2,

1/9(1-2+3-4+...+9) = 5/9,

so better expected value from a single roll.

[Witherweaver]

There are two on the list missing, right?  The one that needs 1's and 2's and the one that negates even rolls.

There is not a penalty to lynching me if we need lower rolls for the next two days.

There's also the Dragon that has some weird "play successive numbers" clause.

Oh, I missed him. 

So no one has a role that lets them see the next monster coming up?  There was one such role in the previous game (or, at least talked about in the mod QT).

[faust]

I guess you have a point about the Goblin.  But

1/12(1-2+3-4+...+11-12) = -1/2,

1/9(1-2+3-4+...+9) = 5/9,

so better expected value from a single roll.

Yes, but we won't roll a single die, which means this does not mean anything.

[faust]

Lynching me is a possibility.  You'll lose the Mentalist, though.

Do you know that? We didn't lose the Mentalist when Xerxes died.

[pingpongsam]

Lynching me is a possibility.  You'll lose the Mentalist, though.

Do you know that? We didn't lose the Mentalist when Xerxes died.

To be fair, XP got NK'd while the mentalist was off on a visit. Lynching ashersky ostensibly means the ability to send the mentalist on visits is lost.

Personally, I don't care. A) the mentalist is too expensive unless you have some serious stored dice and B) this is such an easy ploy for scum to make when ashersky can simply send the mentalist to his scum partner or not send it at all.

[Witherweaver]

I guess you have a point about the Goblin.  But

1/12(1-2+3-4+...+11-12) = -1/2,

1/9(1-2+3-4+...+9) = 5/9,

so better expected value from a single roll.

Yes, but we won't roll a single die, which means this does not mean anything.

I hadn't thought about it for more than one die, but yeah the optionality makes it a lot different. If my back-of-the-envelope calculation is right, in the case of two dice taking away 11 actually hurts more than having 5 odds to 4 evens, which is unfortunate.

[Witherweaver]

Anyway, do you really think I just completely made up this role?

[faust]

Anyway, do you really think I just completely made up this role?

Yeah, why not? I've seen all kinds of crazy scum fakeclaims.

[Witherweaver]

Anyway, do you really think I just completely made up this role?

Yeah, why not? I've seen all kinds of crazy scum fakeclaims.

Because it's a bit too creative for me.

[faust]

Actually, another thing:

chairs/WW's roles are too similar, and WW/PPS' roles are too similar as well.

Vote: Witherweaver

[faust]

Anyway, do you really think I just completely made up this role?

Yeah, why not? I've seen all kinds of crazy scum fakeclaims.

Because it's a bit too creative for me.

Well, luckily you have ash as a scum partner.

[Witherweaver]

Seriously stop voting for me~

Also, there is a built-in verifier for my role in BA, assuming he's telling the truth.

[Witherweaver]

Anyway, do you really think I just completely made up this role?

Yeah, why not? I've seen all kinds of crazy scum fakeclaims.

Because it's a bit too creative for me.

Well, luckily you have ash as a scum partner.

Well then we can start by lynching Ash!

[faust]

Seriously stop voting for me~

Also, there is a built-in verifier for my role in BA, assuming he's telling the truth.

Yeah, that's true... but we also need to verify chairs' role, and BA can't target everyone.

[faust]

But right, ash is the one who isn't verifiable at all...

Vote: ashersky

[Witherweaver]

Ash didn't claim a role other than inheriting the Advisor thing, right? 

Did Lio ever claim?  What about Hydrad?

Interestingly enough, both Ash and Faust claimed some kind of inheritance effect.

[Hydrad]

Should I say how many dice were taken from me? Or keep it a secret

[Hydrad]

And yes I still need to claim.

[faust]

Should I say how many dice were taken from me? Or keep it a secret

I think there's little harm done in saying it.

[pingpongsam]

Yeah, ashersky neatly avoided answering my question about how he inherited a role and whether or not it replaced his role or he is now blessed with 2 roles.

[liopoil]

I am considering claiming  because I think scum may already know the important bit of what my role does. Town could direct my role too.

[Archetype]

Then what is this Dice Vendor that came up?

When the dice vendor visits you have the opportunity to swap your stored dice for new supply dice. arch-mi should be able to confirm that I sent him the Vendor last night.

I can't confirm the swapping of stored dice for new dice. I'll Jimmmmm told me was that by supply went up by a number of dice (I don't think I should claim how many at this point). My store stayed the same.

WW is my top townread. I give a lot (probably too much) of towncred for people's claim, and I find his very believable. His self-defense for it scares me (the "too creative bit"), but he's played a 12 both days and no one has made that big of a deal about it. Or even drawn to much attention to it.

I do smell something fishy about faust's claim, but I have a higher scumread on other people (chairs, liopoil, and lately, ash) that I'm OK letting his verify his power tonight.

[Hydrad]

Ok I gained 5 dice tonight. So I ended up losing 2

[Witherweaver]

Okay so Box gets 2 dice stolen from him by Town thief. This is confirmed form town!Yuma and town!Box

PPS lost 4 dice Night 0.  Not confirmed, but confirmed to NOT be because of town thief. (Yuma stole from Box N0 and N1.)

BA lost 6 dice Night 1.  Not confirmed, but confirmed to NOT be because of town thief.  (Yuma stole from Box N0 and N1.)

I lost 4 dice last night.  It is also not half of my supply, even considering rounding.  I know this to be true, but not confirmed for the rest of you.

Hydrad lost 2 dice last night.

Faust claimed to have used Yuma/e's thief ability to steal from me.  But I lost 4 and Hydrad lost 2?  Does not seem consistent.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay so Box gets 2 dice stolen from him by Town thief. This is confirmed form town!Yuma and town!Box

PPS lost 4 dice Night 0.  Not confirmed, but confirmed to NOT be because of town thief. (Yuma stole from Box N0 and N1.)

BA lost 6 dice Night 1.  Not confirmed, but confirmed to NOT be because of town thief.  (Yuma stole from Box N0 and N1.)

I lost 4 dice last night.  It is also not half of my supply, even considering rounding.  I know this to be true, but not confirmed for the rest of you.

Hydrad lost 2 dice last night.

Faust claimed to have used Yuma/e's thief ability to steal from me.  But I lost 4 and Hydrad lost 2?  Does not seem consistent.

Yes, that stood out to me as well when Faust said he stole from you. I'm not sure what to make of it. Either way, I feel like Ash's flip will be very informative. I'm getting a strong scum vibe from him, but he might also be onto something with faust. If Ash flips scum then Faust is obviously town which I have felt he is for a long while. If Ash flips town, then well, that throws  a wrench into everything.

Either way, Ash is acting pretty scummy. And, I feel pretty confident that Faust is town, although not 100% confident.

So, Vote: Ash

[Beyond Awesome]

Faust can you clarify exactly how the dice stealing ability works? Thanks

[Beyond Awesome]

The more I think about it, the more I think Faust is telling the truth. On D1, we saw the dice stealing used twice. On D2, just once because yuma targeted Box who died. So, why on D3 should Faust be lying? Wouldn't we have already seen more dice stealing? No, I think this is a scum ploy by Ash to try to cast doubt and confusion on Faust.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, what is the status on the rolling? Who is supposed to roll next. Did Jimmm calculate the last roll?

[faust]

Faust can you clarify exactly how the dice stealing ability works? Thanks

1d6 is rolled and that amount of dice gets stolen.

[Beyond Awesome]

Based on my roll results, charis' claim of manipulating my dice appears to be true. That said, looking at the forthcoming monsters I have to say he picked some especially scummy numbers to prevent me from rolling.

I agree 1, 2, is needed for one of the monsters and then I think there is a monster that needs odds to beat it, right?

Umm, yah. With that said, chairs is scum.

Ash is almost likely scum.

So, let's lynch chairs and then lynch Ash.

[Beyond Awesome]

MONSTERS

OGRE - Only 1s and 2s count.

GOBLIN - Even numbers count as negative.

So, what this tell us is that chairs wanted to stop rolls on the ogre and instead of leaving out even numbers, he leaves out odd numbers for the goblin? Chairs is 100% scum people.

[pingpongsam]

I am game to lynch chairs. His manipulation of my rolls is beyond scummy. The only niggle is he didn't have to admit to it or could have made up any other set of numbers but he directly posted damning information. Why would scum do that? Admitting he targeted me was a scum slip but the specifics of what he manipulated are like scum seppuku.

[Witherweaver]

I am game to lynch chairs. His manipulation of my rolls is beyond scummy. The only niggle is he didn't have to admit to it or could have made up any other set of numbers but he directly posted damning information. Why would scum do that? Admitting he targeted me was a scum slip but the specifics of what he manipulated are like scum seppuku.

He couldn't afford to make up numbers with the roll he claimed, because he couldn't have known what your other rolls were.

[Jimmmmm]

Vote Count 3.2

chairs (2): liopoil, Archetype
ashersky (3): pingpongsam, faust, Beyond Awesome
faust (1): ashersky

not voting (4): chairs, Witherweaver, Ichimaru Gin, Hydrad

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 19 at 3am forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 21 at 3am forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 37

[Hydrad]

Faust can you clarify exactly how the dice stealing ability works? Thanks

1d6 is rolled and that amount of dice gets stolen.

Yes I guessed right!

Anyways chairs has pretty much reached max scum level for me. The only thing holding me slightly back is some of his moves feel so scummy I don't think scum would be that bold. But still I can't see a town playing like him

Vote: chairs

[Hydrad]

Also remember even if someone admits to being scum don't lynch them until we kill the monster

[Witherweaver]

Faust's "thief" ability is not confirmed. 

I need to find something out...

Did anyone's supply change by an amount of 1,3 or 4 tonight?

My supply changed by one of those numbers tonight.

Also Faust I don't think my ability will be as useful as it seems you think it will be.

My supply changed by one of those numbers tonight.

Also Faust I don't think my ability will be as useful as it seems you think it will be.

You were attacked last night. I sent you 7 dice.

Ok I gained 5 dice tonight. So I ended up losing 2

Faust can you clarify exactly how the dice stealing ability works? Thanks

1d6 is rolled and that amount of dice gets stolen.

So, notably, 5 is not one of 1, 3, or 4.  Hydrad here is lying.   Which is interesting, though not what I was initially looking for when I went to post these.

The other point is, we have no guarantee that two people had dice stolen/destroyed last night.  All I know is I lost 4 dice, perfectly consistent with PPS's claim of 6 and BA's claim of 4.  We only conclude Hydrad lost dice because Faust claimed to give him 7 and Hydrad claimed to only receive 5 (or 1, or 3, or 4.. but he actually said 5).

Also, Faust was also pushing for e to share more of his role yesterday, perhaps because he was planning to make this claim?  It's too bad e didn't share exactly how many dice were stolen and that Yuma didn't say how many he got during Night 1.  The jump from 2 to 4 is believable, but I'm still suspicious.  It's more likely that my loss of 4 is due to the "die destroyer" role that's been around since Day 1 than the inherited thief role.

I'm not sold on Faust, but getting suspicious of this.  But, 5 \notin {1,3,4}, so Vote: Hydrad.  Also the last post indicates that Hydrad is thinking about ending the day with the monster alive.

[ashersky]

Had a good think overnight...what if town was randomly assigned the Thief role and scum was randomly assign the universal backup?  As Faust loves to quote, roles are independent of alignment.

Quite possible he's not lying about his role while hiding his alignment in plain sight.  A classic purloined letter.

As for my role, I DID answer PPS's question.  It is in ADDITION to my assigned role.  The mechanic is clearly in place to keep the mentalist in the game.

Jimmmmm refused to clarify what happens to the mentalist if I 1) am lynched, or 2) refuse to send him to someone.

[Witherweaver]

So, like, what's your original role?

[ashersky]

Boarding a flight, more later.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, I have somewhat of a plan. It is not much of a plan, but it is something I thought of.

Step 1) Kill the monster.

Step 2) Lynch chairs

Step 3) After everyone claims, we coordinate using our abilities to create as many ICs as possible. So, for instance, I would investigate a player that someone else targeted with a dice manipulation ability and then give my result. If it is possible for other players to do stuff like this, then we coordinate accordingly. The hop of our coordination is that we have a process of elimination. We know chairs is a die manipulator. That means the other scum is a die thief/destroyer. I am assuming chairs is scum here. So, on D4, we find out the results of everything and we start doing a process of elimination.

Assuming that chairs is scum, we have two ICs now, Ichi and Faust. So, hopefully, on D4, we get more ICs. Lio and Hydrad have still yet to claim, correct?

Now, I know that my plan is not perfect. I could get NK'd. The player I am investigating could get NK'd. So, hopefully, other players have abilities that allow us to coordinate as much as possible.

[Witherweaver]

Neither Ichi nor Faust are ICs.

[Beyond Awesome]

Had a good think overnight...what if town was randomly assigned the Thief role and scum was randomly assign the universal backup?  As Faust loves to quote, roles are independent of alignment.

Quite possible he's not lying about his role while hiding his alignment in plain sight.  A classic purloined letter.

As for my role, I DID answer PPS's question.  It is in ADDITION to my assigned role.  The mechanic is clearly in place to keep the mentalist in the game.

Jimmmmm refused to clarify what happens to the mentalist if I 1) am lynched, or 2) refuse to send him to someone.

I don't think that scum has Universal Backup because chairs is pretty much going to flip scum, and he is not the die thief, as far as we know. So, you tunneling faust means 1 of 2 things, either you are scum, or you are a town player not really thinking things through because what you are saying makes very little sense. The only way what you says makes any sense if for some weird reason chairs either flips town or chairs ends up being the die thief which I find both possibilities highly improbable based on everything we know. So, in other words, you are coming across as super scummy to me Ash and your next on my lynch list right after chairs.

[Beyond Awesome]

Neither Ichi nor Faust are ICs.

If chairs flips scum with the role he says he has then, yes, both Ichi and Faust will be ICs. But, I guess at this point you are correct. But, I fully expect chairs to flip scum at this point.

[Witherweaver]

Neither Ichi nor Faust are ICs.

If chairs flips scum with the role he says he has then, yes, both Ichi and Faust will be ICs. But, I guess at this point you are correct. But, I fully expect chairs to flip scum at this point.

False.  Ichi would be, yes, because he has verified his role*, and if Chairs is scum and doesn't have the dice-destroying roll, then we can be confident Ichi does not have it either.

Faust would not be; his inherited thief ability has not been verified.

*Unless Hydrad has some ability to play two dice a turn and Hydrad and Ichi are scum and coordinated this, but I seriously doubt that.  Plus, it requires both Hydrad and Ichi being scum, which can't happen if Chairs is.

[chairs]

Neither Ichi nor Faust are ICs.

If chairs flips scum with the role he says he has then, yes, both Ichi and Faust will be ICs. But, I guess at this point you are correct. But, I fully expect chairs to flip scum at this point.

I'm just going to throw this out there, that despite my assumption that I will be lynched today, I would really like you to start thinking about what my Town flip will indicate.  It won't create ICs, it'll just prevent me from misusing my role (which, fair enough, I'm obviously not understanding how to use it effectively anyway).

[pingpongsam]

Had a good think overnight...what if town was randomly assigned the Thief role and scum was randomly assign the universal backup?  As Faust loves to quote, roles are independent of alignment.

Quite possible he's not lying about his role while hiding his alignment in plain sight.  A classic purloined letter.

As for my role, I DID answer PPS's question.  It is in ADDITION to my assigned role.  The mechanic is clearly in place to keep the mentalist in the game.

Jimmmmm refused to clarify what happens to the mentalist if I 1) am lynched, or 2) refuse to send him to someone.

apologies if I missed where you answered that question. I find it odd that it constituted the whole of XPs role (granted, he was the advisor who could be discovered for a price but that did not extend his role, exactly) but upon inheritance it extends your role beyond your base capabilities.

[Hydrad]

Ah WW if you look after my post where I said I gained one of those numbers I'm pretty sure I almost immediately tried to correct myself. I'm on mobile right now but will be at a computer soon to clear this up. I can also claim when I get home since I'm one of the last ones to claim

[pingpongsam]

Just reread chairs trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. The guy gets progressively scummier and sacrificially so today. There is no town accounting for his actions taken today (and last night).

Vote: chairs

[pingpongsam]

I see scum could theorectically hammer chairs and end the day with the Witch alive so Unvote until we have a dead witch.

[Beyond Awesome]

pingpongsam plays a 9
Score: 37

Should I roll next? I think you were last to roll PPS, so I need an even number.

[Beyond Awesome]

You know, I also went back and reread D3. Wow! There is a lot of stuff going on. Anyway, WW makes a good point about Hydrad saying 5 when in fact Faust says 1, 3, 4, nothing or a negative value. I am not sure what to make of that whole exchange. But, it is giving me some pause. Man, things are getting a bit confusing.

Either way, I still stand with lynching chairs today.

[Witherweaver]

okay, this:

My supply changed by one of those numbers tonight.

Also Faust I don't think my ability will be as useful as it seems you think it will be.

You were attacked last night. I sent you 7 dice.

Ok I actually did count wrong but ya I did lose a few if you sent me 7

I have no idea how you could possibly count incorrectly, but let's set that aside.

Unvote

Back to the original point, then, Faust had the ability to send dice, he's the only one that knew how many dice he sent, so he's the only one that knows whether or not you actually had dice taken from you. 

The dice destroyer's previous results were (allegedly) 6 and 4, but your claim is only 2. Though Faust reported 7 when you reported 1,3, or 4, making the dice taken from you 6,4, or 3.  So your dice would match up with the destroyer.  Afterwards, he claims to have stolen from me. 

[Witherweaver]

Chairs, can you explain your number choices?

"If you mislynch me what will that tell you?" is a weak defense.

[Beyond Awesome]

Chairs, can you explain your number choices?

"If you mislynch me what will that tell you?" is a weak defense.

It isn't just about him choosing those numbers. He also sends the dice vendor to PPS when PPS had no dice left as well.

[Witherweaver]

I targeted WW tonight, because he was my top scum read.

How do you now read WW?

I still think he's scummy. He claimed a role that is almost purely negative utility, even more so now that scum knows what it is, and that can't be confirmed by anyone because he claims to have never used it. I don't think roles in this game are designed as to be negative utility for town. For example, the Town Thief also seems to have very limited utility, but it does other things that are good for town.

This is a good point, too.  Chairs?

[Beyond Awesome]

Ok, guys, I went ahead and rolled. Waiting for my results. So, PPS, confirm that you were the last to roll and that I need an even number.

[Witherweaver]

I targeted WW tonight, because he was my top scum read.

How do you now read WW?

I still think he's scummy. He claimed a role that is almost purely negative utility, even more so now that scum knows what it is, and that can't be confirmed by anyone because he claims to have never used it. I don't think roles in this game are designed as to be negative utility for town. For example, the Town Thief also seems to have very limited utility, but it does other things that are good for town.

I should also point out, in terms of my claims, that my pre-claim actions are understandable with my claim.  I did not want a masslcaim, because if scum killed me (or if I was lynched for claiming mostly negative utility) it could wreck havoc on our monster fighting.  I also asked, before my claim, if anyone had the ability to see what monster would come next, so I would know whether shots would help. If I made this up, I would have had to have this fake claim in my head very early.

In retrospect, I also could have agreed to claiming and just not claim the 'on-death' part, or claim it only happened on lynch.  I didn't think of it, though, and in general it's not good to lie as town.

Oh, also, I'm almost surely using a shot tonight.

[Beyond Awesome]

Ok. Got my results from Jimmm. Can another player confirm that I need to roll an even number? I think PPS rolled an odd last, but I want to double check.

[Hydrad]

ok claiming time for me.

So I am the amazing Tinkerer. Basically my role is very similar to chairs except I am able to permanently get rid of dice numbers for the rest of the game.

So every night I am able to chose one person and number and forbid them from ever being able to roll a dice with that number. I have used my power every night and if needed will say what numbers I have forbid and who I have targeted.

[Witherweaver]

pingpongsam plays a 9
Score: 37

This is the last I saw?

[Beyond Awesome]

ok claiming time for me.

So I am the amazing Tinkerer. Basically my role is very similar to chairs except I am able to permanently get rid of dice numbers for the rest of the game.

So every night I am able to chose one person and number and forbid them from ever being able to roll a dice with that number. I have used my power every night and if needed will say what numbers I have forbid and who I have targeted.

Please do tell.

[Hydrad]

Ok. Got my results from Jimmm. Can another player confirm that I need to roll an even number? I think PPS rolled an odd last, but I want to double check.

From what I can see it looks like you need a even number.

[Beyond Awesome]

OK, I skimmed through the thread a couple of times, I am pretty sure PPS went last and played 9.

Play: 8

[Witherweaver]

ok claiming time for me.

So I am the amazing Tinkerer. Basically my role is very similar to chairs except I am able to permanently get rid of dice numbers for the rest of the game.

So every night I am able to chose one person and number and forbid them from ever being able to roll a dice with that number. I have used my power every night and if needed will say what numbers I have forbid and who I have targeted.

Yes, fully claim.

[Hydrad]

who I targeted.

N0: faust forbid: 4
N1: XP forbid: 3
N2: asher forbid:4

[Hydrad]

the asher one I was hoping BA was going to target asher so that I could see if his claim was true or not.

[Beyond Awesome]

the asher one I was hoping BA was going to target asher so that I could see if his claim was true or not.

Sorry. I went after chairs because he seemed like the scummiest player to me. Ash has been on my list of players to investigate though.

[Hydrad]

the asher one I was hoping BA was going to target asher so that I could see if his claim was true or not.

Sorry. I went after chairs because he seemed like the scummiest player to me. Ash has been on my list of players to investigate though.

ya i knew you would go either chairs or asher. but i chose asher as i figured he is more likely town so my forbid will have more use then if we lynch chairs today.

[Beyond Awesome]

Why did you forbid XP from 3? I think 4 would be the ideal number no matter what.

[Witherweaver]

who I targeted.

N0: faust forbid: 4
N1: XP forbid: 3
N2: asher forbid:4

Why 3 instead of 4?

[Hydrad]

who I targeted.

N0: faust forbid: 4
N1: XP forbid: 3
N2: asher forbid:4

Why 3 instead of 4?

I didn't want to fully ban out all 4's incase we fought the orc late into the game and ended up with half the people without the ability to roll a 4.

[Jimmmmm]

Beyond Awesome plays an 8
Score: 45

[Hydrad]

Beyond Awesome plays an 8
Score: 45

so do we only have 2 people left to roll?

[chairs]

Chairs, can you explain your number choices?

"If you mislynch me what will that tell you?" is a weak defense.

I honestly just picked them at random for Today.  Yesterday I thought 1/2/3/4 were probably the best choices, although maybe 3/4/5/6 would have been best?  I don't know.  I'm honestly at the point where I think my N0 decision (which, by the way, I went back and checked and I did have the option to use my power N0) was the best decision I made.

Chairs, can you explain your number choices?

"If you mislynch me what will that tell you?" is a weak defense.

It isn't just about him choosing those numbers. He also sends the dice vendor to PPS when PPS had no dice left as well.

I didn't realize PPS had no dice at all at the time I made the decision.

I targeted WW tonight, because he was my top scum read.

How do you now read WW?

I still think he's scummy. He claimed a role that is almost purely negative utility, even more so now that scum knows what it is, and that can't be confirmed by anyone because he claims to have never used it. I don't think roles in this game are designed as to be negative utility for town. For example, the Town Thief also seems to have very limited utility, but it does other things that are good for town.

This is a good point, too.  Chairs?

I'm not sure what you want me to respond to; this is talking about why you're scum.

[Witherweaver]

Huh I put in the wrong quote.  I was also replying to Faust's thing from earlier.  I meant about choosing to send vendor to PPS:

Chairs, can you explain your number choices?

"If you mislynch me what will that tell you?" is a weak defense.

It isn't just about him choosing those numbers. He also sends the dice vendor to PPS when PPS had no dice left as well.

[Witherweaver]

(You answered the original point from BA.)

[Beyond Awesome]

I am pretty sure that chairs is lying through his teeth.

[Beyond Awesome]

Beyond Awesome plays an 8
Score: 45

so do we only have 2 people left to roll?

Who has yet to roll?

[ashersky]

Are we generally ignoring who the monsters attack each day?  This is a general question.

[liopoil]

Are we generally ignoring who the monsters attack each day?  This is a general question.

Well, no, we aren't ignoring them, but I don't think there is much to be gleaned from them. As far as we can tell the only way the attacks effect the player is for their roll on that day.

[ashersky]

@pps -- I don't know that I inherited the Advisor role, just that I inherited the power to direct the mentalist to a new target.  I actually would assume the Advisor option still gets you XP, not me.

I can't quote directly, but basically I was given the option of sending the mentalist to someone tomorrow night because the Advisor died.

[ashersky]

Are we generally ignoring who the monsters attack each day?  This is a general question.

Well, no, we aren't ignoring them, but I don't think there is much to be gleaned from them. As far as we can tell the only way the attacks effect the player is for their roll on that day.

If we assume that scum is directing the monsters at specific people, there is something to be gleaned.  I mean, Wifom and all that, but I doubt they'd targeted themselves every day, for example.

[liopoil]

Are we generally ignoring who the monsters attack each day?  This is a general question.

Well, no, we aren't ignoring them, but I don't think there is much to be gleaned from them. As far as we can tell the only way the attacks effect the player is for their roll on that day.

If we assume that scum is directing the monsters at specific people, there is something to be gleaned.  I mean, Wifom and all that, but I doubt they'd targeted themselves every day, for example.

Well of course not, nobody has been attacked twice and this is the third day.

[liopoil]

who I targeted.

N0: faust forbid: 4
N1: XP forbid: 3
N2: asher forbid:4

Why 3 instead of 4?

I didn't want to fully ban out all 4's incase we fought the orc late into the game and ended up with half the people without the ability to roll a 4.

wait, I don't get why it's better to ban 4s than 3s in general... oh because of the goblin? Hmmmm. Yes, that makes sense. If ash and faust confirms confirms having never rolled a 4, I believe this.

[ashersky]

Are we generally ignoring who the monsters attack each day?  This is a general question.

Well, no, we aren't ignoring them, but I don't think there is much to be gleaned from them. As far as we can tell the only way the attacks effect the player is for their roll on that day.

If we assume that scum is directing the monsters at specific people, there is something to be gleaned.  I mean, Wifom and all that, but I doubt they'd targeted themselves every day, for example.

Well of course not, nobody has been attacked twice and this is the third day.

So at least two guaranteed town in 4 attacked.

[liopoil]

who I targeted.

N0: faust forbid: 4
N1: XP forbid: 3
N2: asher forbid:4

Why 3 instead of 4?

I didn't want to fully ban out all 4's incase we fought the orc late into the game and ended up with half the people without the ability to roll a 4.

wait, I don't get why it's better to ban 4s than 3s in general... oh because of the goblin? Hmmmm. Yes, that makes sense. If ash and faust confirms confirms having never rolled a 4, I believe this.

fixed.

Are we generally ignoring who the monsters attack each day?  This is a general question.

Well, no, we aren't ignoring them, but I don't think there is much to be gleaned from them. As far as we can tell the only way the attacks effect the player is for their roll on that day.

If we assume that scum is directing the monsters at specific people, there is something to be gleaned.  I mean, Wifom and all that, but I doubt they'd targeted themselves every day, for example.

Well of course not, nobody has been attacked twice and this is the third day.

So at least two guaranteed town in 4 attacked.

Yeah, there's at least 2 town in any group of four players.

I'm going to claim if faust does not object. Even if he does I might anyway.

[liopoil]

I am the ambassador. Each night except for night 0 I may target 1 player. I lose 1 die and they gain 1d12 dice. It doesn't do anything if I don't have a die to discard. I guess the idea is that I reveal and roll that one die from my "hand".

N1 I targeted faust because he was my top townread.
N2 I targeted ichimaru gin because he had just about passed faust up as top townread, and I thought faust probably had enough dice now, and would almost certainly get some dice that night because most people thought he was town. Although the same could be said for ichimaru I suppose.

faust can confirm this, and if faust reveals how many dice he gave ichimaru then ichi can confirm this too.

I think scum might have already realized that I gave dice because of:

Ok. Just got up. Um. I was "visited" during the night, but I was not given a player name. I was given some options and made a decision. Not sure how much more I want to talk about it though. Ah, and I see liopoil says he targeted me with something special. I think this was probably it.

I voted for faust to be the one to distribute the treasure. This morning, I also received some dice.

which I had to respond to saying that I didn't do that, so he didn't think I had some other role. Scum probably could figure out that I must have given dice.

I didn't want scum to know because I think that my role is quite good. However they probably don't have any sort of roleblocker anymore and I don't mind being NKed much because I have gotten some amount of suspicion.

Town can direct who I use my power on tonight, but that could be a bad idea because scum would just kill them. In any case, I think it unlikely that my claim will help scum at this point.

[pingpongsam]

Confirmable power notwithstanding, you're alignment cannot be certain. That said, this is believable enough to push you to the bottom of my suspicion pile. Funny none of your targets have died so they can conveniently confirm you if you are scum.

[Hydrad]

so is asher the only one we don't know his role?

[Beyond Awesome]

so is asher the only one we don't know his role?

I believe so

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok guys. Still haven't caught up yet. But can someone tell me if I should roll and what numbers I'm shooting for. I also know there was a discussion regarding me rerolling someone that it seemed there was some controversy over. I can confirm 100% that my power does not work on stored dice. It only works on dice rolled on the very day I'm using my power.

[Hydrad]

Ok guys. Still haven't caught up yet. But can someone tell me if I should roll and what numbers I'm shooting for. I also know there was a discussion regarding me rerolling someone that it seemed there was some controversy over. I can confirm 100% that my power does not work on stored dice. It only works on dice rolled on the very day I'm using my power.

Right now we need a high odd number I believe. and at the moment it looks like we don't really need your rerolling power. I think its best to save it in case we somehow can't reach the number if someone gets terrible rolls.

[Hydrad]

Ok guys. Still haven't caught up yet. But can someone tell me if I should roll and what numbers I'm shooting for. I also know there was a discussion regarding me rerolling someone that it seemed there was some controversy over. I can confirm 100% that my power does not work on stored dice. It only works on dice rolled on the very day I'm using my power.

also happy living through surgery day

[Beyond Awesome]

Ok guys. Still haven't caught up yet. But can someone tell me if I should roll and what numbers I'm shooting for. I also know there was a discussion regarding me rerolling someone that it seemed there was some controversy over. I can confirm 100% that my power does not work on stored dice. It only works on dice rolled on the very day I' using my power.

Yes. You need to roll. And, you need an odd number. We are 15 points away from killing the monster. I think Arch is the only one not to roll beside you. So, you guys need a 7.5 average between the two of you.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok guys. Still haven't caught up yet. But can someone tell me if I should roll and what numbers I'm shooting for. I also know there was a discussion regarding me rerolling someone that it seemed there was some controversy over. I can confirm 100% that my power does not work on stored dice. It only works on dice rolled on the very day I' using my power.

Yes. You need to roll. And, you need an odd number. We are 15 points away from killing the monster. I think Arch is the only one not to roll beside you. So, you guys need a 7.5 average between the two of you.

Ok. Rolling right now.

[Ichimaru Gin]

...And this sucks. I rolled a high number of dice to ensure a good roll, but it seems luck thought otherwise.

play: 5

[Jimmmmm]

Ichimaru Gin plays a 5
Score: 50

[Hydrad]

...And this sucks. I rolled a high number of dice to ensure a good roll, but it seems luck thought otherwise.

play: 5

Can you reroll yourself?

[Ichimaru Gin]

...And this sucks. I rolled a high number of dice to ensure a good roll, but it seems luck thought otherwise.

play: 5

Can you reroll yourself?

No.
I asked Jimmmmm N0, so yeah I can't.

[Beyond Awesome]

Ugh!

[Hydrad]

...And this sucks. I rolled a high number of dice to ensure a good roll, but it seems luck thought otherwise.

play: 5

Can you reroll yourself?

No.
I asked Jimmmmm N0, so yeah I can't.

Hmm if arch can't get a ten or 12 we might need your reroll to try and boost someone. I think other then you I was the lowest roller? But we should wait and see to see if it's even needed

[Hydrad]

actually ichi. just wondering did you roll any high even numbers?

[Ichimaru Gin]

actually ichi. just wondering did you roll any high even numbers?

Yeah. I did. But of course I had to play a dice immediately.

I'm not exactly sure how my reroll will work with the odd-even patterning though. It'll definitely help if Arch can't roll high enough though. I'm thinking the person I reroll will roll again as if they had never rolled (though the pattern will be unchanged) and then hopefully they'll get a high enough number that works.

[Beyond Awesome]

...And this sucks. I rolled a high number of dice to ensure a good roll, but it seems luck thought otherwise.

play: 5

Can you reroll yourself?

No.
I asked Jimmmmm N0, so yeah I can't.

Hmm if arch can't get a ten or 12 we might need your reroll to try and boost someone. I think other then you I was the lowest roller? But we should wait and see to see if it's even needed

I rolled 4 dice and got 8. I have a feeling that Hydrad can only go up to 7, so I wouldn't reroll him. So, depending on what Arch gets, I am fine being rerolled if everyone else is as well.

[Hydrad]

I wonder if pps used his ability on you. I know it could be just bad luck. But still

[Beyond Awesome]

PPS had a 9.  We don't know how many dice he rolled.

WW got 12.

Ash and lio, I wouldn't reroll because they were attacked.

chairs, well, we can't reroll him.

Wait did Faust roll yet? Or did I miss him?

[Beyond Awesome]

Yah, I don't think Faust has rolled yet.

We need him to roll and then Arch, probably. We may not need your reroll power after all Ichi.

[Hydrad]

So i ran a dice simulator a couple times. It doesn't look like rolling 4 dice at only 8 as the highest is that unreasonable.

But still it gives me a feeling that pps could have been involved in this but not to the point where I think hes scum.

[Hydrad]

Oh i didn't realize faust hadn't rolled. that makes things better.

[Archetype]

Checking in -- Null read on Hydrad for his claim, and a lot what he says seems towny, but I find this:

actually ichi. just wondering did you roll any high even numbers?

pretty scummy.

liopoil has risen to a slight townread with his claim. Apparently roles were assigned regardless of alignment, but unless faust and Ichimaru Gin are both liopoil's scumbuddies, I don't see why he'd target them. Towncred, I guess, but he didn't seem too eager to claim and receive it.

I find myself agreeing with a lot of what BA has said. Mostly his chairs/ashersky stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if one or both of them were scum.

Is ashersky the last one to claim? If so, I've seemed to overlook PPS's. Can someone link me to it.

[Hydrad]

Checking in -- Null read on Hydrad for his claim, and a lot what he says seems towny, but I find this:

actually ichi. just wondering did you roll any high even numbers?

pretty scummy.

liopoil has risen to a slight townread with his claim. Apparently roles were assigned regardless of alignment, but unless faust and Ichimaru Gin are both liopoil's scumbuddies, I don't see why he'd target them. Towncred, I guess, but he didn't seem too eager to claim and receive it.

I find myself agreeing with a lot of what BA has said. Mostly his chairs/ashersky stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if one or both of them were scum.

Is ashersky the last one to claim? If so, I've seemed to overlook PPS's. Can someone link me to it.

I can't find PPS's claim right away but that was why i was asking about ichis rolls.

If I remember PPS said his ability made it so a person could only roll up to 8 that day. Which matches what happened to ichi. So either it was bad luck or PPS tried to make it so we lost vs the monster

[Beyond Awesome]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

Wait, what? can you expand on that bit about your role?

It's fairly complicated and totally swingy. When I target a player they receive a 12 sided die. However, when any other player ( I assume the next one but no further after?) gains a die through any method it will be an 8 sided die without their knowledge. Their rolls will alternate between the 8 sided die and the 12 sided dies in their supply. Thus, having a role that detects how many sides are on dice directly relates to what my role does.

Here is where PPS claims his role.

[faust]

Confirming that I never rolled a 4 and that I received dice N1.

Unvote

[faust]

Rolling dice now. Even number needed, right?

[Beyond Awesome]

Rolling dice now. Even number needed, right?

Yes, we need an even number.

[faust]

Something happened to me N1 for which non of the existing claimed roles offer an explanation. For that reason, I am rather sure that ashersky, as the only unclaimed role, is town.

[faust]

This is... unbelievable...am I having horribly bad luck or is someone tampering with our rolls?

Play: 2

My only even number. If you can reroll Ichi, please do.

[ashersky]

Something happened to me N1 for which non of the existing claimed roles offer an explanation. For that reason, I am rather sure that ashersky, as the only unclaimed role, is town.

As much as I like free town cred, whatever happened on N1 wasn't me.

[faust]

Okay, time to claim.

On N1, I got a visit very similar to the Mentalist. It was called the Grim Reaper (hence my question on D2). Is there anyone around who controls that NPC?

[Archetype]

Darn. I was hoping I'd be able to use my power. I'm rolling now.

[Archetype]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

Wait, what? can you expand on that bit about your role?

It's fairly complicated and totally swingy. When I target a player they receive a 12 sided die. However, when any other player ( I assume the next one but no further after?) gains a die through any method it will be an 8 sided die without their knowledge. Their rolls will alternate between the 8 sided die and the 12 sided dies in their supply. Thus, having a role that detects how many sides are on dice directly relates to what my role does.

Here is where PPS claims his role.

Thanks! This claim certainly increases my suspicions for PPS.

[Beyond Awesome]

Darn. I was hoping I'd be able to use my power. I'm rolling now.

I would still wait for Ichi to reroll Faust first.

[Jimmmmm]

faust plays a 2
Score: 52

[pingpongsam]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

Wait, what? can you expand on that bit about your role?

It's fairly complicated and totally swingy. When I target a player they receive a 12 sided die. However, when any other player ( I assume the next one but no further after?) gains a die through any method it will be an 8 sided die without their knowledge. Their rolls will alternate between the 8 sided die and the 12 sided dies in their supply. Thus, having a role that detects how many sides are on dice directly relates to what my role does.

Here is where PPS claims his role.

Thanks! This claim certainly increases my suspicions for PPS.

Can you guys read? Even if I did tamper I can't outright prevent high rolls. At best I can limit half the rolls to 8 or less as the die alternates. More importantly, if I were involved someone would have gained an additional die that no one seems to be claiming. Get a grip, folks.

[faust]

By the way, I really want to believe that chairs is town, because his play doesn't make any sense as either alignment, but I don't see it. This could still be scum trying a "too scummy to be scum" approach, but there's no town narrative for what he's doing. "I just picked some numbers at random", seriously?

[liopoil]

Ichimaru, reroll me! chairs' won't count anyway, and if it's the 13 thing, I know what I need to roll - low odd numbers. I rolled several dice. Alternatively, if I play an even, mine won't count but chairs' might?

[faust]

Ichimaru, reroll me! chairs' won't count anyway, and if it's the 13 thing, I know what I need to roll - low odd numbers. I rolled several dice. Alternatively, if I play an even, mine won't count but chairs' might?

I think the safer thing is rerolling me.

[liopoil]

Oh yes, 2 is lower than 6. I may have rolled more dice, but probably not.

[Hydrad]

This is just a theory but maybe the which messes up our rolls as the day goes on?

So the later you roll the worse numbers you get

[Hydrad]

Witch*

[liopoil]

but they haven't been explicitly attacked.

[Hydrad]

Yes but it does look like our rolls are getting worse as the day goes on right? In the case I wonder if this is true if we should reroll Asher since if my theory is correct him rolling a low number would actually count as a high number. This is pretty risky though as I could be wrong

[pingpongsam]

My roll was middlish and it was the second highest odd number that could be produced so I didn't experience entropy in the results. I agree we should reroll faust. If faust only rolled one die thus limiting the likelihood a good roll could be had, well, that would be scummy, my guess is he got some odd numbers and the 2 was the only usuable (even) number out of the results.

[Hydrad]

My roll was middlish and it was the second highest odd number that could be produced so I didn't experience entropy in the results. I agree we should reroll faust. If faust only rolled one die thus limiting the likelihood a good roll could be had, well, that would be scummy, my guess is he got some odd numbers and the 2 was the only usuable (even) number out of the results.

ya your probably right. I think i'm looking to much into this.

[ashersky]

Yes but it does look like our rolls are getting worse as the day goes on right? In the case I wonder if this is true if we should reroll Asher since if my theory is correct him rolling a low number would actually count as a high number. This is pretty risky though as I could be wrong

I didn't roll, so rerolling probably wouldn't work.

[Hydrad]

Yes but it does look like our rolls are getting worse as the day goes on right? In the case I wonder if this is true if we should reroll Asher since if my theory is correct him rolling a low number would actually count as a high number. This is pretty risky though as I could be wrong

I didn't roll, so rerolling probably wouldn't work.

Ah ok. Guess there is no real other option then rerolling Faust

[Witherweaver]

Okay, time to claim.

On N1, I got a visit very similar to the Mentalist. It was called the Grim Reaper (hence my question on D2). Is there anyone around who controls that NPC?

You believe it was sent by a player, that player must have been town?  (Wasn't me, by the way.)

[Witherweaver]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

Wait, what? can you expand on that bit about your role?

It's fairly complicated and totally swingy. When I target a player they receive a 12 sided die. However, when any other player ( I assume the next one but no further after?) gains a die through any method it will be an 8 sided die without their knowledge. Their rolls will alternate between the 8 sided die and the 12 sided dies in their supply. Thus, having a role that detects how many sides are on dice directly relates to what my role does.

Here is where PPS claims his role.

Thanks! This claim certainly increases my suspicions for PPS.

Huh, weird that he says "My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply" and then goes on to expand how the 8-sided die is inserted quite indirectly.

[Witherweaver]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

Wait, what? can you expand on that bit about your role?

It's fairly complicated and totally swingy. When I target a player they receive a 12 sided die. However, when any other player ( I assume the next one but no further after?) gains a die through any method it will be an 8 sided die without their knowledge. Their rolls will alternate between the 8 sided die and the 12 sided dies in their supply. Thus, having a role that detects how many sides are on dice directly relates to what my role does.

Here is where PPS claims his role.

Thanks! This claim certainly increases my suspicions for PPS.

Can you guys read? Even if I did tamper I can't outright prevent high rolls. At best I can limit half the rolls to 8 or less as the die alternates. More importantly, if I were involved someone would have gained an additional die that no one seems to be claiming. Get a grip, folks.

Don't remember if you've said this.. have you used your roll yet?

[Witherweaver]

That should say "role".

[faust]

Okay, time to claim.

On N1, I got a visit very similar to the Mentalist. It was called the Grim Reaper (hence my question on D2). Is there anyone around who controls that NPC?

You believe it was sent by a player, that player must have been town?  (Wasn't me, by the way.)

Not necessarily. But there is reason to believe that the roles scum have to other stuff, like eliminate dice and change rolls.

[Witherweaver]

Also.. playing a die changes parity.. Can we assume that rerolling someone's dice does not effect parity? I would think so.

Suppose the plays, in order, were

10
7
12
1
8
9

So parity is on "odd" so need even.  If Ichi reroll's the person that played "1", then does the Witch have a memory of its partiy-path, or just the last state?  I'm thinking it wouldn't, because if the "1" is just removed, then the 8 following 12 wouldn't count.. and it would all be too silly to resolve.  So in this case we'd still need an even, because the Witch is still on "odd" parity. Similarly, if we rerolled the "9" instead, nothing would change.. the Witch's parity count would still be "odd".

So, with Faust playing a "2", Witch is on "even" so we need an odd.  When he rerolls, he needs to play an odd, correct?

Thoughts?

[Witherweaver]

Okay, time to claim.

On N1, I got a visit very similar to the Mentalist. It was called the Grim Reaper (hence my question on D2). Is there anyone around who controls that NPC?

You believe it was sent by a player, that player must have been town?  (Wasn't me, by the way.)

Not necessarily. But there is reason to believe that the roles scum have to other stuff, like eliminate dice and change rolls.

Any harm in telling us what the Grim Reaper did?

[Archetype]

Play: 9

[Witherweaver]

Okay that works too.

[chairs]

Okay, time to claim.

On N1, I got a visit very similar to the Mentalist. It was called the Grim Reaper (hence my question on D2). Is there anyone around who controls that NPC?

You believe it was sent by a player, that player must have been town?  (Wasn't me, by the way.)

Not necessarily. But there is reason to believe that the roles scum have to other stuff, like eliminate dice and change rolls.

This is not at all reasonable to assume.  Keep in mind the most important thing regarding roles: Roles are handed out independent of alignment.  You could have a scum Doctor in this setup.

[chairs]

(Doctor used as an example of "here is a role that directly benefits Town if in Town hands" rather than "I bet there is a Doctor in this setup")

[Witherweaver]

Well, we know the dice-destruction role is scum, because no one has claimed it.

[Witherweaver]

My guess is that the other scum role is something very similar, or exactly, what someone has claimed.  Since, as you said, it's not indicative alignment, they can openly claim it as long as there isn't evidence of them using the role in an anti-town way.

The other option is a role that controls the monsters, but my hunch is it's a factional thing, or it's just random.

[chairs]

My guess is that the other scum role is something very similar, or exactly, what someone has claimed.  Since, as you said, it's not indicative alignment, they can openly claim it as long as there isn't evidence of them using the role in an anti-town way.

The other option is a role that controls the monsters, but my hunch is it's a factional thing, or it's just random.

I'm strongly suspecting this is a factional thing.

[pingpongsam]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

Wait, what? can you expand on that bit about your role?

It's fairly complicated and totally swingy. When I target a player they receive a 12 sided die. However, when any other player ( I assume the next one but no further after?) gains a die through any method it will be an 8 sided die without their knowledge. Their rolls will alternate between the 8 sided die and the 12 sided dies in their supply. Thus, having a role that detects how many sides are on dice directly relates to what my role does.

Here is where PPS claims his role.

Thanks! This claim certainly increases my suspicions for PPS.

Huh, weird that he says "My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply" and then goes on to expand how the 8-sided die is inserted quite indirectly.

Yeah, consider it a typo. I think when I was writing that I went and read my role description mid stream and had forgotten the indirect bit and failed to edit the first half. That no one jumped on the contradiction surprised me at the time. I was acutely aware of it post-posting.

[Witherweaver]

So you add a 12-sided die to a target player's supply, and then every die they gain thereafter is an 8-sided die, and their rolls alternate between d12 and d8?

I also don't see how BA could possibly confirm this, since they can still roll d12s.

[pingpongsam]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

Wait, what? can you expand on that bit about your role?

It's fairly complicated and totally swingy. When I target a player they receive a 12 sided die. However, when any other player ( I assume the next one but no further after?) gains a die through any method it will be an 8 sided die without their knowledge. Their rolls will alternate between the 8 sided die and the 12 sided dies in their supply. Thus, having a role that detects how many sides are on dice directly relates to what my role does.

Here is where PPS claims his role.

Thanks! This claim certainly increases my suspicions for PPS.

Can you guys read? Even if I did tamper I can't outright prevent high rolls. At best I can limit half the rolls to 8 or less as the die alternates. More importantly, if I were involved someone would have gained an additional die that no one seems to be claiming. Get a grip, folks.

Don't remember if you've said this.. have you used your roll yet?

I have not exercised my power at all this game. The only way I would do so would be according to a confirmation scheme that had potential to directly benefit Town either via an IC or giving someone a die when they were out. I don't see either happening.

[pingpongsam]

So you add a 12-sided die to a target player's supply, and then every die they gain thereafter is an 8-sided die, and their rolls alternate between d12 and d8?

I also don't see how BA could possibly confirm this, since they can still roll d12s.

No. Let us say I give WW a 12 sided die. WW gets and keeps that die. However, the next person to gain a die, in any way, receives an 8 sided die. I think they only gain a single die but that die is not consumed by rolling although the total dice in supply are. For example let us say BA receives the d8, he had 4 dice before and now his supply shows 5 dice. Let us say he rolls 2 dice. His supply will reduce to 3 dice and in that roll one of the dice can not possibly exceed 8. The next time BA rolls 3 dice. His supply is reduced to zero and one of the three dice rolled cannot exceed 8.

In order to direct who receives the d8 I would have to know who would be the next recipient of dice. The treasure last night, for example, if I had been the one to distribute that treasure I could have been sure of who actually received the d8.

[Witherweaver]

That is a wonky role.

[faust]

Okay, time to claim.

On N1, I got a visit very similar to the Mentalist. It was called the Grim Reaper (hence my question on D2). Is there anyone around who controls that NPC?

You believe it was sent by a player, that player must have been town?  (Wasn't me, by the way.)

Not necessarily. But there is reason to believe that the roles scum have to other stuff, like eliminate dice and change rolls.

This is not at all reasonable to assume.  Keep in mind the most important thing regarding roles: Roles are handed out independent of alignment.  You could have a scum Doctor in this setup.

But a town dice destructor would have claimed by now, so it has to be scum.

[faust]

chairs: since you're posting, what about explaining the thing with the Dice Vendor and why you are playing such an anti-town game?

[faust]

I'd put you to L-1 right now, but this game has shown that L-1 leads to a lynch rather quickly, so I'll wait on what you have to say in your defense.

[faust]

Any harm in telling us what the Grim Reaper did?

Yes, probably.

[pingpongsam]

chairs: since you're posting, what about explaining the thing with the Dice Vendor and why you are playing such an anti-town game?

The only non scum explanation is he isn't putting any effort into the game. There was quite a bit of information out about who had approximately how many dice. It was quite clear to me arch-mi was the best possible target assuming he was town.

[pingpongsam]

That is a wonky role.

As is the dominion card...

[Beyond Awesome]

Now that the monster is defeated Vote: chairs

[Hydrad]

Now that the monster is defeated Vote: chairs

Is that lynch 1?

[Beyond Awesome]

Last time I checked, I think he is at L-3.

[Hydrad]

Unless I missed something I think me and pps both voted for chairs after the last vote count. With your vote I think it's lunch in 1

[Witherweaver]

Only Chairs interaction regarding Voltaire:

I'm not sure I follow why there's a big Voltaire wagon.  What am I missing?

Except for the minor interaction of:

I think the "BA is scum that rolled 1 die, has the reroll power, but can't reroll himself" is an awfully interesting line of thought.  I'm certainly less inclined than others (Voltaire) to just right anybody off as town just yet.

Point of clarification, D1 POE isn't an attempt to "name the scum team D1", it's an attempt to "maximize the odds the D1 lynch is on scum". There's really only one person I'm "writing off" as town right now and it's XP. Though I certainly think several others are town right now.

Fair enough, and it's not like I don't also use D1 POE.  I just wanted to tease you a little bit 

Voltaire never even typed the name "Chairs" except to list his reads (the POE thing).. he didn't list anything for Chairs.

Not really sure what that says.

[Witherweaver]

He ended Day 1 with his vote still on me.. he was VLA through most of it.

[Beyond Awesome]

Unless I missed something I think me and pps both voted for chairs after the last vote count. With your vote I think it's lunch in 1

Okay, I missed that. I was going by the last vote count.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, chairs is at L-1

[Archetype]

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

Wait, what? can you expand on that bit about your role?

It's fairly complicated and totally swingy. When I target a player they receive a 12 sided die. However, when any other player ( I assume the next one but no further after?) gains a die through any method it will be an 8 sided die without their knowledge. Their rolls will alternate between the 8 sided die and the 12 sided dies in their supply. Thus, having a role that detects how many sides are on dice directly relates to what my role does.

Here is where PPS claims his role.

Thanks! This claim certainly increases my suspicions for PPS.

Can you guys read? Even if I did tamper I can't outright prevent high rolls. At best I can limit half the rolls to 8 or less as the die alternates. More importantly, if I were involved someone would have gained an additional die that no one seems to be claiming. Get a grip, folks.

Don't remember if you've said this.. have you used your roll yet?

I have not exercised my power at all this game. The only way I would do so would be according to a confirmation scheme that had potential to directly benefit Town either via an IC or giving someone a die when they were out. I don't see either happening.

For some reason I thought you had used it. I agree with WW that the power is really wonky and doesn't seem to have utility for Town or Scum.

[Beyond Awesome]

Only Chairs interaction regarding Voltaire:

I'm not sure I follow why there's a big Voltaire wagon.  What am I missing?

Except for the minor interaction of:

I think the "BA is scum that rolled 1 die, has the reroll power, but can't reroll himself" is an awfully interesting line of thought.  I'm certainly less inclined than others (Voltaire) to just right anybody off as town just yet.

Point of clarification, D1 POE isn't an attempt to "name the scum team D1", it's an attempt to "maximize the odds the D1 lynch is on scum". There's really only one person I'm "writing off" as town right now and it's XP. Though I certainly think several others are town right now.

Fair enough, and it's not like I don't also use D1 POE.  I just wanted to tease you a little bit 

Voltaire never even typed the name "Chairs" except to list his reads (the POE thing).. he didn't list anything for Chairs.

Not really sure what that says.

Well, chairs saying he doesn't get the wagon on volt sounds pretty damning to me. Volt came across as pretty scummy at that point. And, volt not discussing chairs makes chairs only seem more suspect. Although, I think there is more than enough evidence at this point that chairs is scum.

[Witherweaver]

By the way, did Ash verify he didn't roll 1,2,3, or 4 on Day 2, and did PPS verify he didn't roll 2,7,1,5 today?

Chairs did play a 12 today.  Though if I were scum at this point I'd probably think appearing towny is better than making sure the monster lives, given that they lost a partner D1.

The explanation for picking 2,7,1,5 at random is very bad.  Also really curious why they're not listed in ascending order... maybe to give more credence to the "random" claim?  ("I rolled a 4d12, those were the results.").  And as has been pointed out, very poor numbers to choose.

[Beyond Awesome]

By the way, did Ash verify he didn't roll 1,2,3, or 4 on Day 2, and did PPS verify he didn't roll 2,7,1,5 today?

Chairs did play a 12 today.  Though if I were scum at this point I'd probably think appearing towny is better than making sure the monster lives, given that they lost a partner D1.

The explanation for picking 2,7,1,5 at random is very bad.  Also really curious why they're not listed in ascending order... maybe to give more credence to the "random" claim?  ("I rolled a 4d12, those were the results.").  And as has been pointed out, very poor numbers to choose.

chairs played a 12, but it also did not go through. And, yes, I think chairs did not put them in order to make him look a little townier.

PPS verified that those numbers were not rolled today.

[Witherweaver]

Ah, that's a good point about the 12 not going through.

Would scum necessarily know what the monster attacks are?  If so, this is damning.  If not, not so much.  I don't recall seeing them have this knowledge in the Monster's Madness game.

[chairs]

Waiting for mod confirmation that we've hit a score of 60.  Then I'll self-hammer so I can flip and you guys can get back to finding real scum instead of arguing about how I must be scum because I've played poorly (which I admit is true).

[Ichimaru Gin]

Waiting for mod confirmation that we've hit a score of 60.  Then I'll self-hammer so I can flip and you guys can get back to finding real scum instead of arguing about how I must be scum because I've played poorly (which I admit is true).

Mm. I'm not sold on chairs being scum.
Also, I think it's important not to jump the gun when Arche's 9 hasn't been officially processed yet.

[Jimmmmm]

Archetype plays a 9
Score: 61

[chairs]

vote: chairs

[chairs]

When I flip Town, please to be considering the positions people took on me.

[Witherweaver]

Wait, can we get an actual vote count?

[Beyond Awesome]

I think chairs just hammered himself.

[Beyond Awesome]

When I flip Town, please to be considering the positions people took on me.

If you were town, then why self hammer in the first place?

[Witherweaver]

I'm not convinced of that.

[Witherweaver]

Can no one vote until an official vote count, and can someone unvote?

[Beyond Awesome]

Can no one vote until an official vote count, and can someone unvote?

I'm pretty sure once hammered, someone can't unvote. However, I am sure people can still vote assuming that actually isn't hammer. Hydrad told me I put chairs at L-1, so I am assuming that is hammer.

[Beyond Awesome]

Actually, I meant to say that Hydrad clarified two others voted for chairs after the previous vote count and thus my vote was L-1.

[Witherweaver]

If he's hammered, unvote won't do anything.  If he's less than hammered (say, L-1), unvote will take him away from derphammer potential.

[Beyond Awesome]

If he's hammered, unvote won't do anything.  If he's less than hammered (say, L-1), unvote will take him away from derphammer potential.

Isn't a derphammer something scum typically does?

[Beyond Awesome]

Hmm, you know WW, I think you're right, I went through the thread and Hydrad is right, he and PPS did vote for him after the previous vote count. However, PPS unvoted. So, actually, I think I put him at L-2. And, so chairs has put himself at L-1, it would seem.

[Witherweaver]

I have voting for Chairs:

Archetype, Liopoil, Hydrad, BA, Chairs

[Beyond Awesome]

If he's hammered, unvote won't do anything.  If he's less than hammered (say, L-1), unvote will take him away from derphammer potential.

Isn't a derphammer something scum typically does?

I meant to say isn't voting for yourself something scum would do?

[Beyond Awesome]

I have voting for Chairs:

Archetype, Liopoil, Hydrad, BA, Chairs

I think that is correct because PPS unvoted.

[Ichimaru Gin]

If he's hammered, unvote won't do anything.  If he's less than hammered (say, L-1), unvote will take him away from derphammer potential.

Isn't a derphammer something scum typically does?

I meant to say isn't voting for yourself something scum would do?

It isn't something that normally makes sense no matter what alignment you are.

[Beyond Awesome]

If he's hammered, unvote won't do anything.  If he's less than hammered (say, L-1), unvote will take him away from derphammer potential.

Isn't a derphammer something scum typically does?

I meant to say isn't voting for yourself something scum would do?

It isn't something that normally makes sense no matter what alignment you are.

Nothing chairs has done this game has made any sense.

[Ichimaru Gin]

If he's hammered, unvote won't do anything.  If he's less than hammered (say, L-1), unvote will take him away from derphammer potential.

Isn't a derphammer something scum typically does?

I meant to say isn't voting for yourself something scum would do?

It isn't something that normally makes sense no matter what alignment you are.

Nothing chairs has done this game has made any sense.

Well I previously found him townie(unless of course he knew that he wasn't in fact hammering himself and just did it for weird town!cred).
I could see a frustrated townie self-hammering, and scum might do it if their lynch seems inevitable and they just want to deny information and mess with people.

Yet now that it seems that he didn't really self-hammer, it makes me feel that he's quite a bit scummier. Self-hammering as town is pretty much bad period though.

[Beyond Awesome]

I feel like his recent actions are just scum trying to mess with our heads.

[chairs]

...did I really not self-hammer?

unvote if so, I guess.

Whatever.

[chairs]

I feel like his recent actions are just scum trying to mess with our heads.

My recent actions are remarkably frustrated Town who's given up on being -useful- to Town this game and who thinks that, hey, if I'm dead, then maybe MAYBE at least the interactions related to my lynch would be helpful.

[pingpongsam]

I feel like his recent actions are just scum trying to mess with our heads.

My recent actions are remarkably frustrated Town who's given up on being -useful- to Town this game and who thinks that, hey, if I'm dead, then maybe MAYBE at least the interactions related to my lynch would be helpful.

I had unvoted to prevent a hammer before the witch was confirmed dead. If you are town at least leave us some reads. It is going to be nearly impossible to read interactions towards you because your behavior is unwavering anti-town.

[liopoil]

catching up, people are talking about hammers. Has there been another derphammer??

[liopoil]

oh, I see. Huh. It seems Jimmmmm almost certainly saw the vote, but even if that wasn't a hammer, he would have posted a vote count, right?

[Witherweaver]

Well I can't really figure out if Chairs confirmed himself scum or not.  An astute Chairs might have pretended to believe the people saying he was at L-1 and "hammered" himself as frustrated town to convince us he's all town.  (Note he posted the obligatory "I'm town" after the "hammer", which we're all obligated to believe.) 

[chairs]

I feel like his recent actions are just scum trying to mess with our heads.

My recent actions are remarkably frustrated Town who's given up on being -useful- to Town this game and who thinks that, hey, if I'm dead, then maybe MAYBE at least the interactions related to my lynch would be helpful.

I had unvoted to prevent a hammer before the witch was confirmed dead. If you are town at least leave us some reads. It is going to be nearly impossible to read interactions towards you because your behavior is unwavering anti-town.

I don't even know.

[chairs]

I feel like his recent actions are just scum trying to mess with our heads.

My recent actions are remarkably frustrated Town who's given up on being -useful- to Town this game and who thinks that, hey, if I'm dead, then maybe MAYBE at least the interactions related to my lynch would be helpful.

I had unvoted to prevent a hammer before the witch was confirmed dead. If you are town at least leave us some reads. It is going to be nearly impossible to read interactions towards you because your behavior is unwavering anti-town.

I don't even know.

To clarify, I have no effing clue who's scum, I'm just braindead as hell.

[liopoil]

doesn't even matter if he was hammered or not, I'm ready to lynch him. We beat the witch. He's at L-2.

[chairs]

doesn't even matter if he was hammered or not, I'm ready to lynch him. We beat the witch. He's at L-2.

My big concern is that we need to make sure we lynch me before scum have a chance to mess with us any more or anything.  I wanted to self-hammer to ensure scum didn't time "mess with the win" along with a hammer vote to ensure that the witch screwed the pooch for us.

[ashersky]

doesn't even matter if he was hammered or not, I'm ready to lynch him. We beat the witch. He's at L-2.

My big concern is that we need to make sure we lynch me before scum have a chance to mess with us any more or anything.  I wanted to self-hammer to ensure scum didn't time "mess with the win" along with a hammer vote to ensure that the witch screwed the pooch for us.

Did you always have a Brotherhood of the Wolf avatar?

[Beyond Awesome]

I feel like his recent actions are just scum trying to mess with our heads.

My recent actions are remarkably frustrated Town who's given up on being -useful- to Town this game and who thinks that, hey, if I'm dead, then maybe MAYBE at least the interactions related to my lynch would be helpful.

I had unvoted to prevent a hammer before the witch was confirmed dead. If you are town at least leave us some reads. It is going to be nearly impossible to read interactions towards you because your behavior is unwavering anti-town.

I don't even know.

To clarify, I have no effing clue who's scum, I'm just braindead as hell.

I take this to mean that you don't want to say anything that would incriminate your scum partner.

[Archetype]

Chairs' attempt to selfhammer guarantees in my mind that he's scum. However, I don't want to lynch him until ash has claimed. FOS: ash for totally abstaining from the wagon besides his about chair's avatar. He's the most likely to be chair's partner.

[ashersky]

Chairs' attempt to selfhammer guarantees in my mind that he's scum. However, I don't want to lynch him until ash has claimed. FOS: ash for totally abstaining from the wagon besides his about chair's avatar. He's the most likely to be chair's partner.

Really?  I was super LA yesterday and am waiting on a vote count.

On a separate note, you are literally my only town read at this point.  Don't take that away from me.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 3.3

chairs (4): liopoil, Archetype, Hydrad, Beyond Awesome {L-2}
faust (1): ashersky

not voting (5): Ichimaru Gin, pingpongsam, Witherweaver, faust, chairs

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 19 at 3 am forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 21 at 3 am forum time.

Target: 60
Score: 61

[pingpongsam]

I thought that if chairs is caught scum I might seek to kill the other today since it boils down to only 2 possibilities but the fact is chairs' ability is a liability to keep around, regardless of his alignment. I think he is scum, his self vote seeded some doubt. I have self voted as town once but it wasn't (perceived) hammer. If chairs is town and won't contribute and continues to use his power against us then he is as good as being scum except for the part where he counts towards our population.

I see no reason not to Vote: chairs

That is L-1

[ashersky]

vote: chairs

[EFHW]

THREAD LOCKED

[EFHW]

Final Day 3 Vote Count

chairs (6): liopoil, Archetype, Hydrad, Beyond Awesome, pingpongsam, ashersky

not voting (4): Ichimaru Gin, Witherweaver, faust, chairs

With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.

Target: 60
Score: 61

The witch has melted!

chairs was the Town Manipulator.

Assume 48 hour night.

[Jimmmmm]

FYI I'm at work at the moment. I should have time to get to this at some point today, otherwise it'll be when I get home tonight.

[Jimmmmm]

Target: 60
Score: 61

The Witch has been defeated!

Today's Reward is COUNCIL.

Night 3 has begun. All Night actions are due on July 18 at 2am forum time.

Whether or not you submit a Night action, all players must post in their Personal QT at least once during the Night.

[Jimmmmm]

FYI I will be 1 hour into an 8-hour shift tomorrow when Day 4 is due to begin, and I should be pretty busy. If I don't get time to start the new Day while at work, I'll do it when I get home around 10am forum time.

[Jimmmmm]

Ichimaru Gin stretched and inhaled the morning air.

Suddenly, a big ugle Ogre decapitated him, put his head on a stake, cut open his spleen and drank his fluids!

Ichimaru Gin has been killed. He was a Town Priest.

An Ogre has attacked!
Rule: Only 1s and 2s count.



Vote Count 4.0

not voting (eight): ashersky, Archetype, faust, Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome, liopoil, Hydrad, pingpongsam

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 26 at 11am forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 28 at 11am forum time.

Target: 4
Score: 0


Day 4 has begun!

Thread unlocked.

[Hydrad]

Play: 2

[Jimmmmm]

Hydrad plays a 2
Score: 2

[Witherweaver]

BA, I used my power on you last night, so you should be unable to roll your three highest values.

[Hydrad]

Also I have a question regarding the reward.

I got placed into a council room with a few people. I'm wondering if there was a second council room out there or if there is only one that a few people got chosen.

[Beyond Awesome]

Play: 2

[Jimmmmm]

Beyond Awesome plays a 2
Score: 4

[pingpongsam]

Also I have a question regarding the reward.

I got placed into a council room with a few people. I'm wondering if there was a second council room out there or if there is only one that a few people got chosen.

I was omitted from the council reward which I felt was truly lame.

I will not be able to contribute to today's target thanks to chairs' raping my rolls yesterday.

I feel certain there is scum in liopoil, ashersky and witherweaver. I'd like to think both scum are in there but I do not feel that good about those people to say that. I think archetype is potentially scum and so is BA. Faust gets to win the game if he is scum as far as I can tell. Hydrad looks town enough to me.

[Beyond Awesome]

Hmmm, so it says the target is 4, but that the monster is attacked. I wonder what happens.

[pingpongsam]

I'm not sure we should keep rolling? A possible attack effect is minus effects for some people who have yet to roll?

[pingpongsam]

Vote: ashersky

[Beyond Awesome]

It is a possibility. Or, maybe the opposite is true. God, I have no idea what it does. Maybe, we should stop rolling for now.

PPE: 1

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, if anyone has been stolen from today please state so. Faust please do not state who you stole from until after everyone who has been stolen from makes their claim. Thanks.

[Hydrad]

Ok so at least not everyone was involved in the council reward then. This leads me to believe that my group was the only one in the council.

Also I once again had dice stolen from me :/

[Hydrad]

Also unless I missed it I think asher got through the day without claiming.

[Beyond Awesome]

Yes, Ash did make it through the day without claiming which if he is scum, has given him plenty of time to formulate a fake claim, unfortunately.

With that said, I investigated lio yesterday over Ash. The reason being I feel lio is not very polarizing like Ash is. He just kind of blends in which is what I think scum would want to do. Also, if scum is Ash, I feel it is good to also try and find his partner.

With that said, his results were the usual

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12

[Hydrad]

Also I have a question regarding the reward.

I got placed into a council room with a few people. I'm wondering if there was a second council room out there or if there is only one that a few people got chosen.

I was omitted from the council reward which I felt was truly lame.

I will not be able to contribute to today's target thanks to chairs' raping my rolls yesterday.

I feel certain there is scum in liopoil, ashersky and witherweaver. I'd like to think both scum are in there but I do not feel that good about those people to say that. I think archetype is potentially scum and so is BA. Faust gets to win the game if he is scum as far as I can tell. Hydrad looks town enough to me.

I think chairs effect is only for one day. So your rolls should be fine. But we probably won't need them anyways

[pingpongsam]

Also I have a question regarding the reward.

I got placed into a council room with a few people. I'm wondering if there was a second council room out there or if there is only one that a few people got chosen.

I was omitted from the council reward which I felt was truly lame.

I will not be able to contribute to today's target thanks to chairs' raping my rolls yesterday.

I feel certain there is scum in liopoil, ashersky and witherweaver. I'd like to think both scum are in there but I do not feel that good about those people to say that. I think archetype is potentially scum and so is BA. Faust gets to win the game if he is scum as far as I can tell. Hydrad looks town enough to me.

You are correct. To say anything further gives scum info town doesn't need today.
I think chairs effect is only for one day. So your rolls should be fine. But we probably won't need them anyways

[pingpongsam]

Also I have a question regarding the reward.

I got placed into a council room with a few people. I'm wondering if there was a second council room out there or if there is only one that a few people got chosen.

I was omitted from the council reward which I felt was truly lame.

I will not be able to contribute to today's target thanks to chairs' raping my rolls yesterday.

I feel certain there is scum in liopoil, ashersky and witherweaver. I'd like to think both scum are in there but I do not feel that good about those people to say that. I think archetype is potentially scum and so is BA. Faust gets to win the game if he is scum as far as I can tell. Hydrad looks town enough to me.

I think chairs effect is only for one day. So your rolls should be fine. But we probably won't need them anyways

You are correct. To say anything further gives scum info town doesn't need today.

[liopoil]

I wasn't in any council room. Townpoints to Hydrad for that!

[Witherweaver]

Also I have a question regarding the reward.

I got placed into a council room with a few people. I'm wondering if there was a second council room out there or if there is only one that a few people got chosen.

I was omitted from the council reward which I felt was truly lame.

I will not be able to contribute to today's target thanks to chairs' raping my rolls yesterday.

I feel certain there is scum in liopoil, ashersky and witherweaver. I'd like to think both scum are in there but I do not feel that good about those people to say that. I think archetype is potentially scum and so is BA. Faust gets to win the game if he is scum as far as I can tell. Hydrad looks town enough to me.

So you're basically saying you're certain there is scum in the set of everyone except for you and Hydrad?  And you're willing to lose if Faust is scum?

[Witherweaver]

Can you feel confident about a Liopoil and Ash team?  Why did you break of the set of them and me?

[Witherweaver]

Also I have a question regarding the reward.

I got placed into a council room with a few people. I'm wondering if there was a second council room out there or if there is only one that a few people got chosen.

I was omitted from the council reward which I felt was truly lame.

I will not be able to contribute to today's target thanks to chairs' raping my rolls yesterday.

I feel certain there is scum in liopoil, ashersky and witherweaver. I'd like to think both scum are in there but I do not feel that good about those people to say that. I think archetype is potentially scum and so is BA. Faust gets to win the game if he is scum as far as I can tell. Hydrad looks town enough to me.

Also, weren't you given Dice by Faust the previous night?  So why would you be unable to contribute?  Are you saying you rolled them all yesterday?

[Hydrad]

Personally I believe there is at least one scum in either lio/asher. I don't feel like both are scum but its possible.

Town reads right now on faust, me, BA, arche. WW is probably next, I'm pretty sure hes town but I'm more suspicious of him then of the others

PPE:1

[Witherweaver]

Well, I'm having a pretty hard time seeing Hydrad as scum. 

[pingpongsam]

Also I have a question regarding the reward.

I got placed into a council room with a few people. I'm wondering if there was a second council room out there or if there is only one that a few people got chosen.

I was omitted from the council reward which I felt was truly lame.

I will not be able to contribute to today's target thanks to chairs' raping my rolls yesterday.

I feel certain there is scum in liopoil, ashersky and witherweaver. I'd like to think both scum are in there but I do not feel that good about those people to say that. I think archetype is potentially scum and so is BA. Faust gets to win the game if he is scum as far as I can tell. Hydrad looks town enough to me.

Also, weren't you given Dice by Faust the previous night?  So why would you be unable to contribute?  Are you saying you rolled them all yesterday?

Scum would like to know for certain, would they not?

[pingpongsam]

Also I have a question regarding the reward.

I got placed into a council room with a few people. I'm wondering if there was a second council room out there or if there is only one that a few people got chosen.

I was omitted from the council reward which I felt was truly lame.

I will not be able to contribute to today's target thanks to chairs' raping my rolls yesterday.

I feel certain there is scum in liopoil, ashersky and witherweaver. I'd like to think both scum are in there but I do not feel that good about those people to say that. I think archetype is potentially scum and so is BA. Faust gets to win the game if he is scum as far as I can tell. Hydrad looks town enough to me.

So you're basically saying you're certain there is scum in the set of everyone except for you and Hydrad?  And you're willing to lose if Faust is scum?

No, the only people I am sure are not scum are me first and Faust second. I am willing to lose if Faust is scum, that is correct, I would be extremely hard pressed to lynch him.

I listed 3 people I am seriously considering for lynch today. BA and arch could be scum but I feel way better about the first three. Call BA and arch null, if it pleases you better.

[pingpongsam]

Who got visited by the Mentalist last night?

[Witherweaver]

Also I have a question regarding the reward.

I got placed into a council room with a few people. I'm wondering if there was a second council room out there or if there is only one that a few people got chosen.

I was omitted from the council reward which I felt was truly lame.

I will not be able to contribute to today's target thanks to chairs' raping my rolls yesterday.

I feel certain there is scum in liopoil, ashersky and witherweaver. I'd like to think both scum are in there but I do not feel that good about those people to say that. I think archetype is potentially scum and so is BA. Faust gets to win the game if he is scum as far as I can tell. Hydrad looks town enough to me.

Also, weren't you given Dice by Faust the previous night?  So why would you be unable to contribute?  Are you saying you rolled them all yesterday?

Scum would like to know for certain, would they not?

Well, I would like to know if one of you or Faust is lying.

[pingpongsam]

Oh, yeah, Faust gave me dice. I claimed that several times yesterday. I would think if I were lying Faust would have jumped all over it, no?

[pingpongsam]

As to what I did with those dice is not something I wish to discuss any further.

[Archetype]

I was visited by both the Mentalist and Dice Vendor. I will not be claiming my actions there or who I'm sending them to. I'll likely claim what they do, but I'll wait until after my V/LA.

I'm still confused as to why chairs wasn't scum. Vote:ashersky. Not claiming yesterday like that is so scummy.

I was not stolen from last night.

[Hydrad]

BA WW and arche. were any of you in a council room not with me? If a few more people confirm they were not in a council room we will know that there was only one council room created.

[Archetype]

I wasn't in the Coucil Room.

[Archetype]

In case Jimmmmm doesn't count typos, Vote: ashersky

[pingpongsam]

I was visited by both the Mentalist and Dice Vendor. I will not be claiming my actions there or who I'm sending them to. I'll likely claim what they do, but I'll wait until after my V/LA.

I'm still confused as to why chairs wasn't scum. Vote:ashersky. Not claiming yesterday like that is so scummy.

I was not stolen from last night.

I sent the vendor to arch-mi because he publicly appeared to have the largest number of dice, hopefully stored, and hopefully he is town.

[Witherweaver]

As to what I did with those dice is not something I wish to discuss any further.

Okay, fair enough. 

[Witherweaver]

Also, if anyone has been stolen from today please state so. Faust please do not state who you stole from until after everyone who has been stolen from makes their claim. Thanks.

Why do you want people to claim before Faust?  Wouldn't the other way be better? 

[Witherweaver]

BA WW and arche. were any of you in a council room not with me? If a few more people confirm they were not in a council room we will know that there was only one council room created.

Not I.

[Witherweaver]

Does anyone know any more about Faust's Grim Reaper?

[Hydrad]

Does anyone know any more about Faust's Grim Reaper?

I'm wondering if there are also npc's that randomly visit people. But no I have not had the grim reaper visit me

[Hydrad]

Also thanks for your answers. I'm about 90% sure that there is only one council room now.

[pingpongsam]

So was the council room a QT and if so who was actually in it?

[Hydrad]

So was the council room a QT and if so who was actually in it?

Yes it was a QT.

there were 4 people in it including me.

Hydrad, ichi, alice and bob

I do not know who alice and bob are and they didn't tell us in the QT incase one of us were scum and would kill them.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, if anyone has been stolen from today please state so. Faust please do not state who you stole from until after everyone who has been stolen from makes their claim. Thanks.

Why do you want people to claim before Faust?  Wouldn't the other way be better?

I first want to see if two people were actually stolen from today. So, that is why I asked for people to claim first.

[Hydrad]

oh also alice and bob know who each other are. I don't want to say to much as I think i'll wait till alice and bob decide to claim who they are.

[Beyond Awesome]

Does anyone know any more about Faust's Grim Reaper?

I wish I knew, but I don't.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, I think I know what the attack of the Ogre is, but I am not sure.

After I played my die (I used a store die), not only did my stored die go away, but I also lost one die from my supply. Hydrad is this what happened to you, or did you have dice stolen from you at the start of the day?

[Hydrad]

Okay, I think I know what the attack of the Ogre is, but I am not sure.

After I played my die (I used a store die), not only did my stored die go away, but I also lost one die from my supply. Hydrad is this what happened to you, or did you have dice stolen from you at the start of the day?

I lost my dice at the start of the day. But i believe in general when you play a stored die you lose one from your supply?

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, I think I know what the attack of the Ogre is, but I am not sure.

After I played my die (I used a store die), not only did my stored die go away, but I also lost one die from my supply. Hydrad is this what happened to you, or did you have dice stolen from you at the start of the day?

I lost my dice at the start of the day. But i believe in general when you play a stored die you lose one from your supply?

Oh, I thought you lost a die when you stored the die but not when you played it. I must have understood incorrectly.

[Witherweaver]

You lose a die from your supply when you store a die, and when you play a stored die.

[Hydrad]

also I don't think the ogre has attacked anyone yet. So i feel like he will mess up our dice somehow.

[Witherweaver]

Well we don't know what the Ogre will do.  Not much to do except wait until it happens and then react to it.

[pingpongsam]

So, I am assuming Alice and bob were the two scum, seeing as they knew each other and would not reveal their identities. Ichi was the other townie and he died, imagine that.

So, for me, at this point, PPS, hydrad and Faust are conf town. Feeling good with my vote where it is.

[Witherweaver]

Because that makes sense as a town benefit...?

[Hydrad]

Honestly judging from what they were saying it really felt towny in there. I'm about 80-90% sure all of us were town in that QT. They were trying to figure out what was going and had some misunderstandings in what each other meant at times. Honestly and ichi NK was pretty expected at least for me so I don't think you can blame alice and bob for that. Plus there isn't really a reason for them to kill us as I didn't and I don't believe ichi gained some sort of power from it.

If they were both scum they did a extremely good job with their interactions.

[Hydrad]

also we didn't decide who got fake names. When I was invited to the council I was informed that:

alice, bob, Hydrad, and ichi are here. I do not believe they had a choice to be hidden and it ended up being decided at random.

[faust]

Play: 2

Can you confirm that you didn't roll 10,11,12?

[Witherweaver]

He said that he played a stored die

[Hydrad]

Play: 2

Can you confirm that you didn't roll 10,11,12?

I believe he played from supply so I don't think he rolled at all.

[faust]

Yes, Ash did make it through the day without claiming which if he is scum, has given him plenty of time to formulate a fake claim, unfortunately.

With that said, I investigated lio yesterday over Ash. The reason being I feel lio is not very polarizing like Ash is. He just kind of blends in which is what I think scum would want to do. Also, if scum is Ash, I feel it is good to also try and find his partner.

With that said, his results were the usual

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12

Well, I'm sure ash had his fake claim ready from D1.

[liopoil]

I was visited by both the Mentalist and Dice Vendor. I will not be claiming my actions there or who I'm sending them to. I'll likely claim what they do, but I'll wait until after my V/LA.

I'm still confused as to why chairs wasn't scum. Vote:ashersky. Not claiming yesterday like that is so scummy.

I was not stolen from last night.

I sent the vendor to arch-mi because he publicly appeared to have the largest number of dice, hopefully stored, and hopefully he is town.

The largest number of dice? I expected him to have on the fewer end, so I gave dice to him with my power!

In any case, what's done is done, so arch doesn't need to claim how many dice he has.

Why don't we claim who is alice and bob? I am not alice or bob.

[liopoil]

Play: 2

Can you confirm that you didn't roll 10,11,12?

I believe he played from supply so I don't think he rolled at all.

Did anything funky happen with you today? You've said in prior days that you've been having weird roles, with 7s and stuff.

[faust]

Play: 2

Can you confirm that you didn't roll 10,11,12?

I believe he played from supply so I don't think he rolled at all.

Yeah. Well, that was extremely anti-town.

Vote: BA

[Beyond Awesome]

Play: 2

Can you confirm that you didn't roll 10,11,12?

I believe he played from supply so I don't think he rolled at all.

Yeah. Well, that was extremely anti-town.

Vote: BA

Why was that anti-town? I saved a 2 the other day specifically for when we came across this monster.

[Hydrad]

what? BA played the best number possible from his supply and thats scummy?

PPE: 1

[faust]

Also man, chairs. Anti-town to his last breath. If we had a chance to coordinate our night actions, that would have been so much better

[faust]

what? BA played the best number possible from his supply and thats scummy?

PPE: 1

That is correct. Finding scum is more important than killing monsters.

[faust]

Play: 2

Can you confirm that you didn't roll 10,11,12?

I believe he played from supply so I don't think he rolled at all.

Yeah. Well, that was extremely anti-town.

Vote: BA

Why was that anti-town? I saved a 2 the other day specifically for when we came across this monster.

Because we cannot confirm WW's role now.

[liopoil]

confirming roles isn't that helpful, man. At this point, this dice destructor is probably just a factional power or something.

[faust]

confirming roles isn't that helpful, man. At this point, this dice destructor is probably just a factional power or something.

I don't believe that.

[faust]

also we didn't decide who got fake names. When I was invited to the council I was informed that:

alice, bob, Hydrad, and ichi are here. I do not believe they had a choice to be hidden and it ended up being decided at random.

Hydrad, could you tell us what happened in the Council Room? You're probably not allowed to quote, so just paraphrase.

[Witherweaver]

Faust, BA played a 2.  And, he does not need to verify my role.

[Witherweaver]

I am Alice.  I know who Bob is, but I'll let him claim.

We were made Masons.  We were confirmed town to each other in our private QTs.  We were also informed that Ichimaru and Hydrad would join the neighborhood, but they did not have their alignment confirmed.

[faust]

Why don't we claim who is alice and bob? I am not alice or bob.

That's a good idea by the way. I'm not alice or bob.

[Archetype]

I agree with faust. Also, short narrative:

Scum!BA knows that the Ogre is coming out tomorrow. He then saves a 2 so that he can appear Towny the following day. Of course, we don't know wether or not scum knows what order the monsters come out or if they can control them, but it would make sense if they did.

[Witherweaver]

Actually I'm just going to out it to save time.

BeyondAwesome is Bob.  He's town.  I choose to Sabotage him because he was confirmed town to me.  I didn't have any idea he'd have a low die stored.

[Archetype]

Also, since PPS has received the Dice Vendor (who may be scum) and ashersky has received the Mentalist (who I'm pretty sure is scum), scum probably already knows what they do. So I don't see any harm in claiming what both the Mentalist and Dice Vendor do.

Dice Vendor lets the holder exchange stored dice and get 1 die for every 2 pips on the exchanged dice.

Mentalist has the holder spend 20 pips to investigate one player. If you're Town, you're told the player's alignment. If you're scum, you're told their Role.

Each one is passed to someone else by the end of each day.

[Archetype]

Actually I'm just going to out it to save time.

BeyondAwesome is Bob.  He's town.  I choose to Sabotage him because he was confirmed town to me.  I didn't have any idea he'd have a low die stored.

So, either WW and BA are partners, or they're both Town. Since I was pretty sure WW was Town pre-claim, I'm going to say they're both Town. Yay!

So, scum is within {ashersky, faust, liopoil, Hydrad, and pingpongsam}. Most likely, it's 2 of {ashersky, pingpongsam, and liopoil}.

[Witherweaver]

Moreover, the Grim Reaper visited me last night.  I don't think Faust shared anything about it, so I won't say anything yet.

[Beyond Awesome]

Actually I'm just going to out it to save time.

BeyondAwesome is Bob.  He's town.  I choose to Sabotage him because he was confirmed town to me.  I didn't have any idea he'd have a low die stored.

This is correct. WW and I were made Masons and Ichi and Hydrad were witnesses randomly selected from all possible players. Hydrad can confirm this and offer a break down of what was discussed.

[liopoil]

Wow, this is very good. I personally had slight scumreads on both BA and WW (much more BA though), and now they are pretty much IC! Although in theory they could be scum partners, I don't see it. Even if they are, we might as well not lynch them today, because once one flips scum we have them both. But really, I am just assuming they are town now.

With chairs' flip and these two being town too, I am going to have to step back and reconsider everything.

[Archetype]

Also, confirming I received some dice. Probably from liopoil, unless someone claims otherwise.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, since PPS has received the Dice Vendor (who may be scum) and ashersky has received the Mentalist (who I'm pretty sure is scum), scum probably already knows what they do. So I don't see any harm in claiming what both the Mentalist and Dice Vendor do.

Dice Vendor lets the holder exchange stored dice and get 1 die for every 2 pips on the exchanged dice.

Mentalist has the holder spend 20 pips to investigate one player. If you're Town, you're told the player's alignment. If you're scum, you're told their Role.

Each one is passed to someone else by the end of each day.

Please do not send either one my way. They won't do me much good.

[Hydrad]

Hurrah I know who my friends are now.

also I really agree with the 3 between PPS, asher and lio. those were actually the 3 that I had the highest suspicion for and finding out BA and WW were in the QT makes me even more sure about this. I'm feeling really good about how this game is going.

[Beyond Awesome]

Faust did you steal from Hydrad?

[Hydrad]

Faust did you steal from Hydrad?

I highly doubt he would after giving me dice. I'm pretty sure the "dice destroyer" did it.

[Beyond Awesome]

Faust did you steal from Hydrad?

I highly doubt he would after giving me dice. I'm pretty sure the "dice destroyer" did it.

Good point. Okay, Faust who did you steal from?

[pingpongsam]

Also, since PPS has received the Dice Vendor (who may be scum) and ashersky has received the Mentalist (who I'm pretty sure is scum), scum probably already knows what they do. So I don't see any harm in claiming what both the Mentalist and Dice Vendor do.

Dice Vendor lets the holder exchange stored dice and get 1 die for every 2 pips on the exchanged dice.

Mentalist has the holder spend 20 pips to investigate one player. If you're Town, you're told the player's alignment. If you're scum, you're told their Role.

Each one is passed to someone else by the end of each day.

So towny of you to share information already made public.

[liopoil]

Okay, so players alive with roles

Hydrad - Tinkerer, forbids a number forever: very townie
Faust - universal backup --> thief: very townie
WW - forbid from rolling top 3: Probably town because of masons, off the table
BA - sees what numbers players can roll: Probably town because of masons, off the table
liopoil - gives dice, loses 1 die: town, but unfortunately on the table in seems.
ashersky - ??: Scummy, needs to claim
archetype - If doesn't roll can double-roll later: Everyone has a townread on him, I don't so much, and am increasingly regretting giving dice to him. He's very much still on the table for me and I think others should consider him too.
pps - sorry, has this been fully explained? Something with 8-sided dice: He's been scummy the whole game.

So I too actually have a list of 3 players which I think all the remaining scum is in: archetype, pps, and ashersky.

PPE: yes, good point pps.

[pingpongsam]

Since my scum reads align with everyone else's so far with the exception of including myself, i feel we should not lynch me, lol. I've been torn on liopoil and ashersky so much I suspect they may be the scum team. If not, I feel better about ashersky. Ashersky said if he flipped town that I would have to die the next day and I am now okay with that.

[pingpongsam]

That lio still implicates ashersky is further encouraging.

[pingpongsam]

My role hd been fully described. It is weird and useless unless it were in scum's hands.

[Archetype]

Also, since PPS has received the Dice Vendor (who may be scum) and ashersky has received the Mentalist (who I'm pretty sure is scum), scum probably already knows what they do. So I don't see any harm in claiming what both the Mentalist and Dice Vendor do.

Dice Vendor lets the holder exchange stored dice and get 1 die for every 2 pips on the exchanged dice.

Mentalist has the holder spend 20 pips to investigate one player. If you're Town, you're told the player's alignment. If you're scum, you're told their Role.

Each one is passed to someone else by the end of each day.

So towny of you to share information already made public.

I knew the Mentalist's powers had been mentioned before, but I didn't know what the Dice Vendor did until I recieved it.

[pingpongsam]

My whole case on chairs was for sending me the dice vendor knowing I had no dice stored or otherwise.

[pingpongsam]

My whole case on chairs was for sending me the dice vendor knowing I had no dice stored or otherwise.

Well and all the other scummy stuff too, but it was the more convicting thing to me.

[Beyond Awesome]

Chairs must have been really out of it that game. Now that he has flipped, It seems like he was not paying attention to anything at all like he signed up for the game, but was not taking the time to get involved. I thought he was scum for sure.

[faust]

I am Alice.  I know who Bob is, but I'll let him claim.

We were made Masons.  We were confirmed town to each other in our private QTs.  We were also informed that Ichimaru and Hydrad would join the neighborhood, but they did not have their alignment confirmed.

Right then. Who of Ichi/Hydrad did you think would be scum?

[faust]

Faust did you steal from Hydrad?

No.

[Beyond Awesome]

Can you please tell me who you targeted today?

[faust]

WW, BA: Why did you not share that information in your neighborhood?

The two scummiest people claim to be masons. I smell a scum ploy.

[faust]

Can you please tell me who you targeted today?

No.

[Beyond Awesome]

I am Alice.  I know who Bob is, but I'll let him claim.

We were made Masons.  We were confirmed town to each other in our private QTs.  We were also informed that Ichimaru and Hydrad would join the neighborhood, but they did not have their alignment confirmed.

Right then. Who of Ichi/Hydrad did you think would be scum?

For me, honestly, I believed both were town, but I felt it was safer to not claim until D4.

[Witherweaver]

I am Alice.  I know who Bob is, but I'll let him claim.

We were made Masons.  We were confirmed town to each other in our private QTs.  We were also informed that Ichimaru and Hydrad would join the neighborhood, but they did not have their alignment confirmed.

Right then. Who of Ichi/Hydrad did you think would be scum?

I wasn't sold on either being town.  I had more suspicions of Hydrad than Ichi.  They both started to seem more townie as the QT discussions went on.

[Beyond Awesome]

WW, BA: Why did you not share that information in your neighborhood?

The two scummiest people claim to be masons. I smell a scum ploy.

Come on Faust. This was a town reward for defeating the monster. Do you really think they would give scum an advantage like this?

[Witherweaver]

WW, BA: Why did you not share that information in your neighborhood?

The two scummiest people claim to be masons. I smell a scum ploy.

Extreme scenario: Ichi and Hydrad are scum, scum gets an extra kill, kills both me and BA, then they claim Masons.

[faust]

I am Alice.  I know who Bob is, but I'll let him claim.

We were made Masons.  We were confirmed town to each other in our private QTs.  We were also informed that Ichimaru and Hydrad would join the neighborhood, but they did not have their alignment confirmed.

Right then. Who of Ichi/Hydrad did you think would be scum?

For me, honestly, I believed both were town, but I felt it was safer to not claim until D4.

What's the benefit for scum? They get thrown into an incriminating situation.

[Witherweaver]

Or simply, one of Ichi and Hydrad are scum, so they kill someone who will be confirmed town tomorrow.

[faust]

WW, BA: Why did you not share that information in your neighborhood?

The two scummiest people claim to be masons. I smell a scum ploy.

Extreme scenario: Ichi and Hydrad are scum, scum gets an extra kill, kills both me and BA, then they claim Masons.

And you believed that?

[Beyond Awesome]

I am Alice.  I know who Bob is, but I'll let him claim.

We were made Masons.  We were confirmed town to each other in our private QTs.  We were also informed that Ichimaru and Hydrad would join the neighborhood, but they did not have their alignment confirmed.

Right then. Who of Ichi/Hydrad did you think would be scum?

For me, honestly, I believed both were town, but I felt it was safer to not claim until D4.

What's the benefit for scum? They get thrown into an incriminating situation.

Not really. The two scum players just wouldn't say anything today.

[faust]

Good thing is, we only need to lynch one of you, then the other one is confirmed town (or, well, scum).

[Beyond Awesome]

Good thing is, we only need to lynch one of you, then the other one is confirmed town (or, well, scum).
[/quote

Not really. You lynch one of us. The other one of us becomes an IC, but is instantly NK'd. Bad idea there.

[Beyond Awesome]

Good thing is, we only need to lynch one of you, then the other one is confirmed town (or, well, scum).

Not really. You lynch one of us. The other one of us becomes an IC, but is instantly NK'd. Bad idea there.

[Witherweaver]

WW, BA: Why did you not share that information in your neighborhood?

The two scummiest people claim to be masons. I smell a scum ploy.

Extreme scenario: Ichi and Hydrad are scum, scum gets an extra kill, kills both me and BA, then they claim Masons.

And you believed that?

No, but it's not impossible.

But no point to claim in the QT.  Hydrad and Ichi could have verified that I was Alice and BA was Bob today, simply by asking us anything only we could know.  (Or making us claim the names.)

[faust]

Not really. The two scum players just wouldn't say anything today.

Or they would realize they're next on everyone's lynch list, and try to take advantage of the situation. Nice try.

PPE: 3

[Witherweaver]

Good thing is, we only need to lynch one of you, then the other one is confirmed town (or, well, scum).

You're not lynching one of us today.

[faust]

WW, BA: Why did you not share that information in your neighborhood?

The two scummiest people claim to be masons. I smell a scum ploy.

Extreme scenario: Ichi and Hydrad are scum, scum gets an extra kill, kills both me and BA, then they claim Masons.

And you believed that?

No, but it's not impossible.

But no point to claim in the QT.  Hydrad and Ichi could have verified that I was Alice and BA was Bob today, simply by asking us anything only we could know.  (Or making us claim the names.)

Well, your claim would have seemed more believable.

[Witherweaver]

How so?

[faust]

The extreme defensiveness speaks in favor of my theory.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, since Faust will not say who he stole from, if anyone else got stolen from please state so.

[faust]

How so?

Less time for scum!you to make something like this up.

[faust]

Okay, since Faust will not say who he stole from, if anyone else got stolen from please state so.

I'm waiting for confirmation on something, then I'll claim.

[Witherweaver]

Dude, we can't be making this up.  Me, Hydrad, and BA all confirm it.  All three of us can't be scum.

The only uncomfirmable thing is Masons, but I announced that early in the QT (Hydrad can confirm this).

[faust]

Good thing is, we only need to lynch one of you, then the other one is confirmed town (or, well, scum).

You're not lynching one of us today.

Getting panicky?

[liopoil]

scum gets an extra kill

you lost me there.

I agree, no point in claiming in QT. But it is possible that both are scum. Alice and Bob could just have been chosen randomly, or maybe not randomly, who knows. I lean towards both being town, and in any case, we are lynching neither today, and probably not any day. So I will be assuming both are town, for now.

[Witherweaver]

My first message in the Council QT was that I knew who Bob was and he was confirmed town to me.  My second was to announce that we were made Masons.

[Witherweaver]

Good thing is, we only need to lynch one of you, then the other one is confirmed town (or, well, scum).

You're not lynching one of us today.

Getting panicky?

I'm not, but you're not being productive.

[faust]

scum gets an extra kill

you lost me there.

I agree, no point in claiming in QT. But it is possible that both are scum. Alice and Bob could just have been chosen randomly, or maybe not randomly, who knows. I lean towards both being town, and in any case, we are lynching neither today, and probably not any day. So I will be assuming both are town, for now.

That is a bad policy.

Well, I guess I'd be fine with not lynching them today, since really, if we got one we got both, but I'm afraid that if I don't push this case, it will be forgotten.

[faust]

Good thing is, we only need to lynch one of you, then the other one is confirmed town (or, well, scum).

You're not lynching one of us today.

Getting panicky?

I'm not, but you're not being productive.

Now questioning things is "not productive"? And this from you? I'd change my vote to you, except I'm already voting for your partner.

[Witherweaver]

Trying to lynch us is not productive.

[faust]

Well, I think if you two are not scum, the scum team is ash/lio. I would be okay lynching one of them if you all promise me that should they flip town, you will lynch WW/BA.

[Witherweaver]

Yes there is a possible scum plot there, but, well, we would have to have basically been handed it by Jimmm.  Hydrad can also verify that Jimmm said that posting in the QT under anything but your main pseudonym would not be allowed without  mod permission.

[faust]

Moreover, the Grim Reaper visited me last night.  I don't think Faust shared anything about it, so I won't say anything yet.

Did you use the Grim Reaper?

[Witherweaver]

Moreover, the Grim Reaper visited me last night.  I don't think Faust shared anything about it, so I won't say anything yet.

Did you use the Grim Reaper?

I did not.

[faust]

Moreover, the Grim Reaper visited me last night.  I don't think Faust shared anything about it, so I won't say anything yet.

Did you use the Grim Reaper?

I did not.

Name a power the Grim Reaper offers.

[Witherweaver]

Moreover, the Grim Reaper visited me last night.  I don't think Faust shared anything about it, so I won't say anything yet.

Did you use the Grim Reaper?

I did not.

Name a power the Grim Reaper offers.

Vig. 

[liopoil]

scum gets an extra kill

you lost me there.

I agree, no point in claiming in QT. But it is possible that both are scum. Alice and Bob could just have been chosen randomly, or maybe not randomly, who knows. I lean towards both being town, and in any case, we are lynching neither today, and probably not any day. So I will be assuming both are town, for now.

That is a bad policy.

Well, I guess I'd be fine with not lynching them today, since really, if we got one we got both, but I'm afraid that if I don't push this case, it will be forgotten.

It's not a bad policy. Why have you been just directly contradicting me? You did it here too:

confirming roles isn't that helpful, man. At this point, this dice destructor is probably just a factional power or something.

I don't believe that.

Also:

Well, I think if you two are not scum, the scum team is ash/lio. I would be okay lynching one of them if you all promise me that should they flip town, you will lynch WW/BA.

What about pps and archetype?

[Hydrad]

Personally I think the likely hood of both WW and BA being scum are extremely low. Their interactions did not at all seem like it was scum who planned it out. Also the chance that Jimmmm randomly selected 2 scum to be hidden like that is really low. I would be surprised if Jimmm even allowed scum to have a chance to be alice or bob.

For a town benefit it doesn't make any sense at all for the benifit to just be a council room of 4 people who talk together during the night.

I understand its a possibilty that this happened but unless something big happens making me thing WW or BA is scum I doubt I will be voting for them even if a lynch on asher or lio comes up town. Personally if we lynch asher tonight and he comes up town that just makes me think its lio and PPS and doesn't make me suspect WW or BA really at all.

PPE:5

[faust]

Moreover, the Grim Reaper visited me last night.  I don't think Faust shared anything about it, so I won't say anything yet.

Did you use the Grim Reaper?

I did not.

Name a power the Grim Reaper offers.

Vig.

That's kind of obvious. How much does it cost and what are the restrictions?

[faust]

Personally I think the likely hood of both WW and BA being scum are extremely low. Their interactions did not at all seem like it was scum who planned it out. Also the chance that Jimmmm randomly selected 2 scum to be hidden like that is really low. I would be surprised if Jimmm even allowed scum to have a chance to be alice or bob.

For a town benefit it doesn't make any sense at all for the benifit to just be a council room of 4 people who talk together during the night.

I understand its a possibilty that this happened but unless something big happens making me thing WW or BA is scum I doubt I will be voting for them even if a lynch on asher or lio comes up town. Personally if we lynch asher tonight and he comes up town that just makes me think its lio and PPS and doesn't make me suspect WW or BA really at all.

PPE:5

And what if the reward is that Alice and Bob are guaranteed to be scum?

[Witherweaver]

Moreover, the Grim Reaper visited me last night.  I don't think Faust shared anything about it, so I won't say anything yet.

Did you use the Grim Reaper?

I did not.

Name a power the Grim Reaper offers.

Vig.

That's kind of obvious. How much does it cost and what are the restrictions?

Cost 15, only usable by Town-aligned.

[faust]

scum gets an extra kill

you lost me there.

I agree, no point in claiming in QT. But it is possible that both are scum. Alice and Bob could just have been chosen randomly, or maybe not randomly, who knows. I lean towards both being town, and in any case, we are lynching neither today, and probably not any day. So I will be assuming both are town, for now.

That is a bad policy.

Well, I guess I'd be fine with not lynching them today, since really, if we got one we got both, but I'm afraid that if I don't push this case, it will be forgotten.

It's not a bad policy. Why have you been just directly contradicting me? You did it here too:

confirming roles isn't that helpful, man. At this point, this dice destructor is probably just a factional power or something.

I don't believe that.

I have been contradicting you because I think you are wrong.

Also:

Well, I think if you two are not scum, the scum team is ash/lio. I would be okay lynching one of them if you all promise me that should they flip town, you will lynch WW/BA.

What about pps and archetype?

I think PPS and Archetype are both town.

[faust]

Cost 15, only usable by Town-aligned.

Okay, well, I believe now that the Grim Reaper has indeed visited WW. Doesn't say anything about his alignment though. A second death tonight could have confirmed you as town, you know?

[pingpongsam]

Personally I think the likely hood of both WW and BA being scum are extremely low. Their interactions did not at all seem like it was scum who planned it out. Also the chance that Jimmmm randomly selected 2 scum to be hidden like that is really low. I would be surprised if Jimmm even allowed scum to have a chance to be alice or bob.

For a town benefit it doesn't make any sense at all for the benifit to just be a council room of 4 people who talk together during the night.

I understand its a possibilty that this happened but unless something big happens making me thing WW or BA is scum I doubt I will be voting for them even if a lynch on asher or lio comes up town. Personally if we lynch asher tonight and he comes up town that just makes me think its lio and PPS and doesn't make me suspect WW or BA really at all.

PPE:5

And what if the reward is that Alice and Bob are guaranteed to be scum?

I thought this too till they both claimed. Why would scum do that? Seems a very risky attempt to IC themselves since staying  silent is basically zero risk.

[Witherweaver]

Cost 15, only usable by Town-aligned.

Okay, well, I believe now that the Grim Reaper has indeed visited WW. Doesn't say anything about his alignment though. A second death tonight could have confirmed you as town, you know?

Unfortunately, that was not a possibility. 

[faust]

Personally I think the likely hood of both WW and BA being scum are extremely low. Their interactions did not at all seem like it was scum who planned it out. Also the chance that Jimmmm randomly selected 2 scum to be hidden like that is really low. I would be surprised if Jimmm even allowed scum to have a chance to be alice or bob.

For a town benefit it doesn't make any sense at all for the benifit to just be a council room of 4 people who talk together during the night.

I understand its a possibilty that this happened but unless something big happens making me thing WW or BA is scum I doubt I will be voting for them even if a lynch on asher or lio comes up town. Personally if we lynch asher tonight and he comes up town that just makes me think its lio and PPS and doesn't make me suspect WW or BA really at all.

PPE:5

And what if the reward is that Alice and Bob are guaranteed to be scum?

I thought this too till they both claimed. Why would scum do that? Seems a very risky attempt to IC themselves since staying  silent is basically zero risk.

Because they're both scummy and likely to be lynched, and even more so with the Council Romm thing.

[Hydrad]

Personally I think the likely hood of both WW and BA being scum are extremely low. Their interactions did not at all seem like it was scum who planned it out. Also the chance that Jimmmm randomly selected 2 scum to be hidden like that is really low. I would be surprised if Jimmm even allowed scum to have a chance to be alice or bob.

For a town benefit it doesn't make any sense at all for the benifit to just be a council room of 4 people who talk together during the night.

I understand its a possibilty that this happened but unless something big happens making me thing WW or BA is scum I doubt I will be voting for them even if a lynch on asher or lio comes up town. Personally if we lynch asher tonight and he comes up town that just makes me think its lio and PPS and doesn't make me suspect WW or BA really at all.

PPE:5

And what if the reward is that Alice and Bob are guaranteed to be scum?

Then that would be interesting. But for me at least I had a pretty strong town read on both WW and BA before I even knew who they were. If it was asher/lio or something I would suspect it a lot more but I'm pretty sure that WW and BA are town. If they aren't I will admit that I pretty much threw the game.

but BA has been rolling some of the best numbers for us all game and WW doesn't feel scummy to me at all. With that and their interactions in the QT I am almost 100% sure they are town.

PPE:5

[liopoil]

Funny how everyone claims to have had a townread on BA after we pretty much know he's town. We were all set to lynch him the other day... and probably would have yesterday if not for chairs.

[pingpongsam]

I have faith that Jimmmmm did not make a town reward that amounts to a basket of WIFOM. This is too easily gamed, basically a shared reward. Masons and a QT amount to a real reward.

[pingpongsam]

Funny how everyone claims to have had a townread on BA after we pretty much know he's town. We were all set to lynch him the other day... and probably would have yesterday if not for chairs.

I've not read him much town. I started the day calling him null. It's been all the undue pressure towards him most of the game that makes me think he is not scum. Same case for myself I might add.

[Witherweaver]

I had a huge scum read on BA, I was very surprised to get my QT message.

[Beyond Awesome]

I had a huge scum read on BA, I was very surprised to get my QT message.

This is quite true. I believe you were one of the biggest advocates to have me lynched actually.

[liopoil]

It's been all the undue pressure towards him most of the game that makes me think he is not scum. Same case for myself I might add.

Pretty sure I'm the only one that has been consistently calling you scum since day 1, which you almost certainly are, by the way.

[liopoil]

I had a huge scum read on BA, I was very surprised to get my QT message.

This is quite true. I believe you were one of the biggest advocates to have me lynched actually.

Can you guys stop making me think you are the scumteam when you aren't? Thanks.

[Witherweaver]

Alright. If deadline was right now I would be choosing Ash. What I really need to convince myself of today is that Faust is not scum.

[Witherweaver]

It's been all the undue pressure towards him most of the game that makes me think he is not scum. Same case for myself I might add.

Pretty sure I'm the only one that has been consistently calling you scum since day 1, which you almost certainly are, by the way.

No, go look at me.  But I agree that he has.

[Witherweaver]

Oh. I misread.. I had thought you were talking to BA about him being scummy.

[liopoil]

Alright. If deadline was right now I would be choosing Ash. What I really need to convince myself of today is that Faust is not scum.

Nahh, don't bother. I'm not trying to convince myself you guys are town, I'm just assuming it because I don't want you lynched for now at the very least. You have to know that faust is not getting lynched today, so just assume he's town. Focus on finding the two scum in me, ash, arch, and pps.

It's been all the undue pressure towards him most of the game that makes me think he is not scum. Same case for myself I might add.

Pretty sure I'm the only one that has been consistently calling you scum since day 1, which you almost certainly are, by the way.

No, go look at me.  But I agree that he has.

What does "he has" mean? You mean that he is scum?

But, I went an looked at you, here's what I found:

PPS seems town enough..

vote: pps above posts are scummy... (how's that for an explanation?)

Awesome because you just elevated yourself to obvtown afaiac.

I don't get this.

And I think don't vote for PPS either.

Can you elucidate why?

My gut tells me you're town.

Were you talking about BA? In any case, I'm glad that it seems you have come around to pps being scum.

I won't be voting until I've reread a bit though.

PPE: oh. Well, screw it, I'm posting this anyway.

[Hydrad]

One thing I will say. fausts votes and actions right now might be giving some people a slight scum vibe as I see some people are starting to suspect him. Honestly his actions make me almost positive that he is town also. My reasoning is this. If you were scum!faust and you saw that no one was suspecting you and everyone is thinking asher/lio/arch/pps is scum why would you ever fight against that so hard in not believing WW and BA.

If faust was scum he would most likely go along with our accusations and have a pretty much free win. The way I see faust is acting is that his top 2(ish) scum reads just basically said they are IC's so of course hes doubting them. Personally I will find myself hard pressed to vote WW,BA or faust.

[pingpongsam]

If Faust is scum he deserves the win. If ash is town he deserves the loss and so do I.

[Beyond Awesome]

Honestly, I am going to have to do a full reread of everything from D1 on Ash, lio, arch, and pps. That will take quite a lot of time, and probably won't happen for a day or two. I'm not fully convinced that Ash is scum. And, with the way things have been going, I don't want to rush into a lynch because we are getting much closer to lylo happening.

[Hydrad]

yes I believe we only have 1 more mislynch available. Unless we get something like the doctor ability again.

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, my gut stopped talking to me about PPS some time after that.. I had also thought Faust was very town until yesterday, something had made me very uneasy.  Could have been OMGUS.

Lio and PPS could be mutually bussing in a last ditch effort to keep one alive.  But I think Ash is more likely to be on the team.

[ashersky]

If Faust is scum he deserves the win. If ash is town he deserves the loss and so do I.

No, Faust deserves to be lynched.

I'm fairly certain remaining scum are in lio/PPS/Faust.  Those are final reads.

Whomever targeted me last night...thanks.  I now have zero dice.

I'm a VT.

[Beyond Awesome]

How many dice did you lose?

[Hydrad]

I guess I should say how many I lost.

I lost 4 dice tonight.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, Ash how many dice did you lose?

And, Faust, how many dice did you gain?

[Beyond Awesome]

So, I have been doing some thinking. I still plan on doing a full reread, but we can confirm lio's, Archetype's and Fausts abilities.

Only PPS and Ash are the two that can't be confirmed. For sure, one of them has to be the "dice destroyer." I just don't see someone having two abilities in this game.

So, anyway, I think we have to lynch between the two of them. But, to be safe, I do plan on doing a thorough reread within the next couple of days.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, so I have started doing my reread, and I think Ash and PPS are partners. Also, I think I may have caught PPS in a lie. However, it is super late, and I am just glazing over D1 right now before going to bed. It will still be a while before I get the full reread compiled.

Anyway, regarding the PPS lie thing, PPS says this followed immediately by a comment from Ash

Oh yeah, I got an anti-town power.

?

Yeah, basically I am VT unless I have near certainty of scum at which point it will be largely too late to use the power. If I use my power on a townie it would be detrimental.

Here is Ash's immediate follow-up comment.

Oh yeah, I got an anti-town power.

?

Yeah, basically I am VT unless I have near certainty of scum at which point it will be largely too late to use the power. If I use my power on a townie it would be detrimental.

Would full claim get you killed?

Then, here is where PPS discusses what his role does. Also, remember that his role name is Swindler.

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

Wait, what? can you expand on that bit about your role?

It's fairly complicated and totally swingy. When I target a player they receive a 12 sided die. However, when any other player ( I assume the next one but no further after?) gains a die through any method it will be an 8 sided die without their knowledge. Their rolls will alternate between the 8 sided die and the 12 sided dies in their supply. Thus, having a role that detects how many sides are on dice directly relates to what my role does.

So, on D1, he says using his power on a townie would be detrimental, but then on D2, he says that the first player he targets, it is a good thing, but then the player who gains dice afterwards gets screwed. But, on D1 he says if he has near certainty of scum it is worth using. However, that can't be true because his power is "anti-town" which he does say that on D1 which means his power is pretty much never worth using. In other words, using his power on scum would only be good for scum and bad for town.

However, a large part of me really wants to believe he is not lying here. First, he comes to my defense when I claim my ability when people say it sounds made up, and he brings up how he has a role that can affect what values of dice someone can roll. PPS was also the first player to claim a role that affects the values other players can roll. So, that also makes me believe him to an extent.

Anyway, just an immediate observation I made.

[Beyond Awesome]

Oh, and we also have this exchange with PPS and Ash right when PPS announces his dice were swiped.

I just discovered that someone swiped half my supply of dice last night.

Ash's response

I just discovered that someone swiped half my supply of dice last night.

Points to you being town, with scum stealing your dice.

Or you (or your partner) has the dice-stealing scum power and you are preemptively claiming to have been robbed when you actually didn't use the power for yet even more cred.

Also, PPS saying he rolled well ahead and noticing his supply was swiped which never made sense to me that he rolled ahead or did no see his QT seeing that his dice were swiped. Also, as I understand in the rules, we can only roll up to 1 hour ahead, so Jimmmm should have said that PPS rolled or something. I don't know. I just don't see how you can roll ahead.

I rolled well ahead of realizing my supply was depleted. Nice theory though, maybe you can leverage it for my mislynch when I am actually out of dice while you do whatever you please with the ones you stole?

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, he seems to believe his dice were stolen. We know yuma/e was a thief. Could it be possible that scum also has a thief and not a destroyer? What made PPS believe that his dice were stolen and not destroyed?

[Beyond Awesome]

I rolled well ahead of realizing my supply was depleted. Nice theory though, maybe you can leverage it for my mislynch when I am actually out of dice while you do whatever you please with the ones you stole?

Was your supply depleted before or after your claim?

I do not follow the question. I am assuming my supply was depleted going into D1. When I posted the realization is when I realized it myself. Checking my QT now I see that my new supply number was proved at 4pm D1. I have yet to subscribe to my QT so I am not yet getting alerts to new posts in it. Now that I am looking at it again I see that my supply is now reduced further than the number of dice I rolled today. In fact, in full disclosure, N0 I had 9 dice, starting D1 I had 5 dice. I rolled 3 dice and I have 1 remaining die in my supply.

 Knowing my own power I suspect that I am the target of multiple N0 actions with 1 of them likely a Town action. I was extremely tempted to use my power N0 because it might have allowed me an advantage in determining a player's alignment. However, ultimately I could not reconcile wielding it on a likely town player.

I expect my reduced utility to the game at this point to mean I am the easy mislynch.

Going back and rereading, this entire post makes no sense to me.

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, sorry for all the posts. I only meant to make one, and then go to bed, but continued to do more skimming. I swear this is my last post. But, on a final note, PPS put chairs at L-1 and Ash hammered.

[faust]

I targeted PPS last night and received no dice. I'm not responsible for whatever happened with ashersky.

Receiving no dice from PPS makes me more certain of his townieness, because it means that he has no supply dice left and thus was telling the truth (probably).

[pingpongsam]

I targeted PPS last night and received no dice. I'm not responsible for whatever happened with ashersky.

Receiving no dice from PPS makes me more certain of his townieness, because it means that he has no supply dice left and thus was telling the truth (probably).

Correct, I rolled everything yesterday hoping to kill the witch and to store something useful for the possible monsters knowing I was screwed by chairs for the ogre. I have the best possible die from those results stored for the remaining monsters.

I have no response to hydrad because my answers are as clear as they could be when I made them and have been clarified as needed. There are no lies and reading lies into me is reaching hard.

[pingpongsam]

And by hydrad I mean BA.

[faust]

Faustus Aurelius Productions proudly presents:

Beyond Awesome and Witherweaver: A scum narrative

N0

Scum meets. WW has a dice destroying power and uses it on PPS, because hey, why not? BA might actually have a power similar to the one he claimed.

D1

BA and WW start the game with a nice little ping-ponging with WW asking questions and BA answering them. Then there's the rerolling, where the highest dice roll (from BA) doesn't get rerolled. Still mildly suspicious. #178 features WW fishing for Xerxes' role. #183, BA jumps a wagon on Ichi because he's "quiet" and rolled low. WW also hedging on Ichi. #223, WW uses the classical logical fallacy "I can't always be scum" to defend himself. BA posts his reads in #250: scum read on Voltaire for low roll, town read on WW for flavor reasons when it has been explicitly stated that flavor has no meaning for the game. That's the classical distribution for reads on scum partners: one scummy, one towny.

A long time not much notable. WW votes BA at some point, but doesn't really push this lynch. Then, in post #417, BA defends WW against my accusations. Then, #580 is another interesting reads post from BA. He calls Voltaire "a bit suspicious" and votes for him. He forgets to list WW. Overall, the most scummy Voltaire vote of the day.

In #609, WW states reads, says he finds BA the most scummy, and "doesn't see how this isn't town Volt". That's an especially strong read to have when Volt has done nothing that stands out. Casting suspicion on BA on the other hand is safe, noone else is really suspecting him.

N1

Not much to learn here. Box was a good taget: He claimed lots of dice, seemed townie, yet not enough for people to protect him. WW plans something to make BA look more townie and attacks him (or doesn't, and they just agree to tell this story).

D2

BA opens with a very fake-seeming post. WW states "my reads suck" immediately afterwards, trying to prevent suspicion because of his read on Voltaire and to protect BA. #704 is the classic "I understand why you are voting for me" scumtell. There's also the thing where BA knows that mail-mi was attacked, which I overlooked. WW was very reluctant to answer whether or not he targeted me N1, as is BA. Are they afraid I might find something out?

Throughout the day, BA continues to have an inexplicable town read on WW. In #1001, WW joins the e wagon pretty much without reasoning and giving up his strong scum read on BA rather easily. Post #1082 is BA again defending WW, continuing in a very fishy defense in #1086. When I call WW out for not being on the VOltaire wagon, he cites his scum meta to show that he's usually bussing, which is a bad defense also. Post #1172 is also very telling, hey, I'll even link it.

In #1384, WW says he gets a "huge scumread" on BA, but leaves his vote on PPS. Then, BA is afraid of a mislynch and claims his weird role. #1419 scummy again, with BA saying "I am not trying to get out of being lynched". Really? #1564, BA goes after the easy mislynch chairs, without much of a case at all. Post #1603, #1604 are again interesting BA - WW interaction. In #1610, WW is suddenly okay with lyching e. Why? BA hammers shortly thereafter. (Doesn't really... but they think he does) Supremely scummy.

N2

This is probably where WW makes up his fakeclaim. The Xerxes NK is obvious.

D3

WW's claim:

Okay, looks like there are no dissenters to mass claiming.  I'll go ahead and start

I am a Town X-Shot Saboteur.  I can reveal what X is, but not sure if I should.  I have not used any shots.  This is what my power does:

During the night, I may name a single player, and that player is unable to roll any of the three highest-scoring values.  I can only name one player per night (i.e., I can only use one shot a night). 

Moreover, if I die, then for each shot I have remaining, a random player will be Sabotaged (effect above) on each of the following two days. 

I read this as, if I have X shots left and die tonight, then tomorrow X random players get Sabotaged, and the next day X random players get Sabotaged again.

This is why I didn't want to claim my roll before.. I saw this as largely anti-town, because in most cases we want high rolls.  If I'm night killed, then the effect seems pretty bad for us.  I did not use any shots because there was no reason to believe we wouldn't want high rolls, and even if I had a strong scum read on someone, we still want them to play high.

However, this effect is a boon for these monsters:

OGRE - Only 1s and 2s count.

GOBLIN - Even numbers count as negative.

For those of us that can roll up to 12, my effect takes away 10,11, and 12 as possibilities, so two evens and one odd. (In fact, probably true for anyone, because the highest value is probably even.)  For Ogres, the chance to get 1 or 2 is reduced from 2/12 to 2/9.  So at this point it could help.  This is also why I asked yesterday if anyone had the ability to see what monsters are coming up, so I'd know if I should use my power or not.

The only night actions I've taken were to target Faust with the medical thing on Night 1 and Faust again with the treasure thing on Night 2.

I don't know if we're doing full die claiming, so I won't do that, but as I said before, I lost four dice from my Supply last night.  Nothing happened to me on the previous nights.

I already mentioned how this is a scummy claim: No confirmable actions yet, potentially helpful later, penalty for getting lynched. What add to this is that the role is very similar to chairs' role, but strictly worse for town. I don't think Jimmmmm would include two roles of this kind. Post #1975 reads like: "I made up such an awesome role, why don't you believe me?"

It's also very very much notable how WW screamed "lynch BA next!!!" on D2 and apparently completely forgot about his intentions on D3. How does that happen? In #2131, BA puts chairs at L-1 (wasn't actually, but he thought it was) after he stated he was going to self-hammer. Also very scummy.

N3

Now things get really juicy. WW and BA are being pulled into the Council, under fake names. They decide to use that as an advantage and claim Masons. I will say here that this makes no sense. If the reward was to give us Masons, what was the rest of the Council all about? I don't think Jimmmmm would just add such an unneccessary thing to a reward that is otherwise pretty straightforward. Two, why wouldn't they claim their names? Doing so would maybe kill one of them, but then they know there's scum among Hydrad/Ichi, which seems a good bargain. Three, WW and BA, really? What are the odds for two players that are so scummy to be chosen as Masons?

WW then claims to target BA, which is good because it takes him one day further without having to be confirmed, and the next day is already MyLo. Him targeting BA is town doesn't make sense. BA is confirmed town, shouldn't he be targeting the player who are scum to make it more likely that they have to contribute? Also, it was clear that BA was low on dice. No, that night action doesn't make any sense.

That's pretty much it. The scumminess of the two becomes ever more apparent going on.

[pingpongsam]

It could happen. Where is the ashersky that plays the game? He's been like a sulky teenager the whole game.

[ashersky]

It could happen. Where is the ashersky that plays the game? He's been like a sulky teenager the whole game.

Check the VLA thread.

[liopoil]

Beyond Awesome and Witherweaver: A scum narrative

Okay faust, you certainly have a point, and I will consider it... should we get to lylo with them both still alive and we haven't lynched a second scum yet. In the meantime, you have to get that out of your head and assume they aren't scum.

In response to BA: a pps-ash team is certainly possible, in fact it is from my perspective that it should be the most possible, but their interactions are a bit weird for that. Although, it is pps and ashersky after all... I will certainly consider that. But an arch-pps or arch-ash team also seems highly possible, and I'd like people to consider that more.

[pingpongsam]

Beyond Awesome and Witherweaver: A scum narrative

Okay faust, you certainly have a point, and I will consider it... should we get to lylo with them both still alive and we haven't lynched a second scum yet. In the meantime, you have to get that out of your head and assume they aren't scum.

In response to BA: a pps-ash team is certainly possible, in fact it is from my perspective that it should be the most possible, but their interactions are a bit weird for that. Although, it is pps and ashersky after all... I will certainly consider that. But an arch-pps or arch-ash team also seems highly possible, and I'd like people to consider that more.

Common thread here is ashersky. Also, if he flips town it boils down to me or you.

[liopoil]

How is ash a common thread more than you are?

[pingpongsam]

How is ash a common thread more than you are?

Fair point.

[faust]

Beyond Awesome and Witherweaver: A scum narrative

Okay faust, you certainly have a point, and I will consider it... should we get to lylo with them both still alive and we haven't lynched a second scum yet. In the meantime, you have to get that out of your head and assume they aren't scum.

In response to BA: a pps-ash team is certainly possible, in fact it is from my perspective that it should be the most possible, but their interactions are a bit weird for that. Although, it is pps and ashersky after all... I will certainly consider that. But an arch-pps or arch-ash team also seems highly possible, and I'd like people to consider that more.

Yeah, well, thing is, there is only one player other than WW and BA that I think has a decent chance of being scum, and that's ashersky. Only he can't be scum alone, so it gets back to WW/BA. Why should we not lynch one of them today? What makes lynching among you/Arch/PPS/ash so much better?

[liopoil]

Beyond Awesome and Witherweaver: A scum narrative

Okay faust, you certainly have a point, and I will consider it... should we get to lylo with them both still alive and we haven't lynched a second scum yet. In the meantime, you have to get that out of your head and assume they aren't scum.

In response to BA: a pps-ash team is certainly possible, in fact it is from my perspective that it should be the most possible, but their interactions are a bit weird for that. Although, it is pps and ashersky after all... I will certainly consider that. But an arch-pps or arch-ash team also seems highly possible, and I'd like people to consider that more.

Yeah, well, thing is, there is only one player other than WW and BA that I think has a decent chance of being scum, and that's ashersky. Only he can't be scum alone, so it gets back to WW/BA. Why should we not lynch one of them today? What makes lynching among you/Arch/PPS/ash so much better?

What makes it better is that:

-if we ever do decide to lynch one of WW/BA and they are scum, we win
-if they are town there is a non-zero chance one of them dies or we get other new information before we lynch them.

Also, you really have that much of a townread on arch, pps, and me?

[faust]

So summary:

liopoil deals out dice, and he has done that in a very pro-town way. He's also not going after BA/WW, which I think scum!him would need to do in order to win.

Arch/previously mail-mi has played a generally pro-town game, I don't see what incriminates him. The way mail-mi approached his role D1 is unlikely to come from scum!him I think.

PPS has apparently always told the truth about his dice situation, why would scum steal from themselves D1? It only made PPS a better lynch target. He used all his dice in a very pro-town way. I get a town vibe from his posts.

ash is so strange this game, I think scum!him would be more involved. The VT claim makes little sense as scum, it's ash though, so who knows?

So who is left, really? We can end this game with a win right now, why stretch it out?

[faust]

What makes it better is that:

-if we ever do decide to lynch one of WW/BA and they are scum, we win
-if they are town there is a non-zero chance one of them dies or we get other new information before we lynch them.

Also, you really have that much of a townread on arch, pps, and me?

We won't get new information, scum will kill me or Hydrad tonight, pretty certain about that. And yeah, if we lynch them and they flip scum, we win. I want to win, sooner rather than later.

[liopoil]

What makes it better is that:

-if we ever do decide to lynch one of WW/BA and they are scum, we win
-if they are town there is a non-zero chance one of them dies or we get other new information before we lynch them.

Also, you really have that much of a townread on arch, pps, and me?

We won't get new information, scum will kill me or Hydrad tonight, pretty certain about that. And yeah, if we lynch them and they flip scum, we win. I want to win, sooner rather than later.

Most likely we won't get new information and scum won't kill one of them, but who knows? It could happen. I don't care when we win, I just want us to win, and you should feel the same.

So summary:

liopoil deals out dice, and he has done that in a very pro-town way. He's also not going after BA/WW, which I think scum!him would need to do in order to win.

Arch/previously mail-mi has played a generally pro-town game, I don't see what incriminates him. The way mail-mi approached his role D1 is unlikely to come from scum!him I think.

PPS has apparently always told the truth about his dice situation, why would scum steal from themselves D1? It only made PPS a better lynch target. He used all his dice in a very pro-town way. I get a town vibe from his posts.

ash is so strange this game, I think scum!him would be more involved. The VT claim makes little sense as scum, it's ash though, so who knows?

So who is left, really? We can end this game with a win right now, why stretch it out?

Well, I'm not going to argue against you on having a correct townread on me, but I will say that I don't think that is enough to assume I am town from a neutral perspective.

arch-mi has not played a pro-town game at all. He contributed 0 dice on days 1 and 2, and mail-mi at least was super lurky. The only  thing holding me back is his 9 on day 3, but that is easily done as scum.

pps may have started with very few dice, and as scum, you don't generally care if you run out of dice... you don't want to help town anyway! It would probably be a good idea for scum to roll lots of dice and store good ones for later, while being able to claim to be out of dice. Running out of dice cannot be a townie thing to do.

VT claim simply has to be scummy. Sure, there could be a second VT, but VT is the easiest possible thing for scum to claim. He's been V/LA, I think. Are you really giving him towncred for not being involved?

Speaking of dice, are the rest of us going to roll, or are we just hoping that the stored dice of BA and hydrad will push us through to victory? I think we should roll, because there haven't been any monster attacks yet. Probably ww and faust should roll last.

[Beyond Awesome]

Beyond Awesome and Witherweaver: A scum narrative

Okay faust, you certainly have a point, and I will consider it... should we get to lylo with them both still alive and we haven't lynched a second scum yet. In the meantime, you have to get that out of your head and assume they aren't scum.

In response to BA: a pps-ash team is certainly possible, in fact it is from my perspective that it should be the most possible, but their interactions are a bit weird for that. Although, it is pps and ashersky after all... I will certainly consider that. But an arch-pps or arch-ash team also seems highly possible, and I'd like people to consider that more.

Yeah, well, thing is, there is only one player other than WW and BA that I think has a decent chance of being scum, and that's ashersky. Only he can't be scum alone, so it gets back to WW/BA. Why should we not lynch one of them today? What makes lynching among you/Arch/PPS/ash so much better?

You should not lynch WW or me today because if we catch scum WW and me become ICs.

[Hydrad]

Ya I'm pretty sure me or faust is dead after tonight.

I did some rereading and am now starting to suspect WW and BA a bit more.

The only other combo I can think that might be scum is asher/arche. or lio/pps

PPS and lio don't feel like scum to me after rereading their interactions with asher. There is a small chance that they are both scum together but i don't feel like its that strong.

asher/arche I feel like it isn't that strong of a possibility as I have had a town read on arche for pretty much this whole game. The only reason I'm thinking this is the mail-mi incident with rolling 2 dice and getting them canceled right away. Of course it could just be a unlucky situation for town. But still scum would probably use that power to look towny and end up hurting town.

Also I feel like their interactions make much more sense as scum partners then any others I can come up with.

Overall I still want to have a asher lynch tonight. If he pops up town I might consider lynching BA/WW but I feel like its better to go with a non WW/BA lynch incase asher is scum and then we still have a myslynch to find the last scum. But if we vote BA/WW off and they are town then we are in a mylo situation unless we get a doctor power again or something.

PPE:2

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, I have realized that either Hydrad, Faust, or Ash is lying about the dice stealing.

I get a super strong town vibe from Hydrad, so I am sure he is telling the truth. Faust, I am not as convinced he is town like others. And, Ash, well, he could be telling the truth or lying about getting stolen.

If Ash flips town then that means either Hydrad or Faust have to be scum. That means either WW or I will be NK'd because if Hydrad is town, scum will want to keep him alive because if not then, well, everyone knows Faust is scum.

So, really, the only three possible lynch candidates today are Hydrad, Faust, and Ash. I know no one will lynch Faust. There is no way I will lynch Hydrad. So, that really only leaves us with Ash.

Well, there is a possibility that someone else stole somehow. So, if a town-aligned member somehow stole dice from either Ash or Hydrad, you need to speak up now or forever hold your peace.

[faust]

Well, fine, I'm not winning anything here.

Vote: ashersky

By the way, I have a 1 stored. just in case we need more against the monster.

[faust]

If ash flips town, and I die, and you do not lynch WW/BA, I will be so so mad.

[liopoil]

Okay, I have realized that either Hydrad, Faust, or Ash is lying about the dice stealing.

Can you explain this again? Hydrad and Ash claim to have been stolen from, but faust claims to have stolen from pps, which leaves two people having been stolen from by a dice destructor? Oh wow, that is a very good point, but also a very stupid lie for scum to make. So this is weird... let's all claim what we each know about this, just to get scum on the record on what went on last night, and also for town to speak up if they know stuff.

I was not stolen from, did not steal from anyone, and know nothing about this.

Oh I just remembered, you never answered, Hydrad, did anything weird happen with your roll?

[faust]

So, coordination is a thing.

WW, target one of Archetype/liopoil tonight.
Hydrad, target WW tonight. Block a random number.
BA, target WW tonight.
As for lio, probably best to target PPS. He needs dice.
I don't think there's a really good target for me. Not sure what I'll do, suggestions?

So yeah, that plan should catch WW/BA in a lie, if we assume one of them is the dice destroyer.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, I have realized that either Hydrad, Faust, or Ash is lying about the dice stealing.

Can you explain this again? Hydrad and Ash claim to have been stolen from, but faust claims to have stolen from pps, which leaves two people having been stolen from by a dice destructor? Oh wow, that is a very good point, but also a very stupid lie for scum to make. So this is weird... let's all claim what we each know about this, just to get scum on the record on what went on last night, and also for town to speak up if they know stuff.

I was not stolen from, did not steal from anyone, and know nothing about this.

Oh I just remembered, you never answered, Hydrad, did anything weird happen with your roll?

Good idea.

I was not stolen from, did not steal from anyone, and as well, I know nothing about this.

[faust]

Okay, I have realized that either Hydrad, Faust, or Ash is lying about the dice stealing.

Can you explain this again? Hydrad and Ash claim to have been stolen from, but faust claims to have stolen from pps, which leaves two people having been stolen from by a dice destructor? Oh wow, that is a very good point, but also a very stupid lie for scum to make. So this is weird... let's all claim what we each know about this, just to get scum on the record on what went on last night, and also for town to speak up if they know stuff.

I was not stolen from, did not steal from anyone, and know nothing about this.

Oh I just remembered, you never answered, Hydrad, did anything weird happen with your roll?

The dice stealing happening thrice is weird, couldn't it be that it has to do with today's monster though? We haven't seen an attack after all...

[faust]

All I know is I stole from PPS and nothing happened.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, I have realized that either Hydrad, Faust, or Ash is lying about the dice stealing.

Can you explain this again? Hydrad and Ash claim to have been stolen from, but faust claims to have stolen from pps, which leaves two people having been stolen from by a dice destructor? Oh wow, that is a very good point, but also a very stupid lie for scum to make. So this is weird... let's all claim what we each know about this, just to get scum on the record on what went on last night, and also for town to speak up if they know stuff.

I was not stolen from, did not steal from anyone, and know nothing about this.

Oh I just remembered, you never answered, Hydrad, did anything weird happen with your roll?

The dice stealing happening thrice is weird, couldn't it be that it has to do with today's monster though? We haven't seen an attack after all...

Well, Hydrad claims he was stolen from at the start of the day. And, I am not going to trust anything Ash says. It could be the monster steals from a random player at the start of the day...but, I don't know about that theory honestly.

[faust]

Well, Hydrad claims he was stolen from at the start of the day. And, I am not going to trust anything Ash says. It could be the monster steals from a random player at the start of the day...but, I don't know about that theory honestly.

Then present a better theory!

Also, are you okay with my plan for tonight?

[liopoil]

As for lio, probably best to target PPS. He needs dice.

BA targeting WW is silly, he won't do that. I don't want to give dice to scum, so I probably won't do that. Although that means we can force him to roll. 1d12 is a big range though, so he could claim to have just gotten 1 die even if he got 12.

faust, every other time someone was attacked Jimmmmm announced it. Do you think this is any different?

[Hydrad]

Oh I just remembered, you never answered, Hydrad, did anything weird happen with your roll?

What do you mean by that?

[liopoil]

well you said all the other days that your dice seemed manipulated. It doesn't really matter.

[faust]

As for lio, probably best to target PPS. He needs dice.

BA targeting WW is silly, he won't do that. I don't want to give dice to scum, so I probably won't do that. Although that means we can force him to roll. 1d12 is a big range though, so he could claim to have just gotten 1 die even if he got 12.

faust, every other time someone was attacked Jimmmmm announced it. Do you think this is any different?

Why is BA targeting WW silly? Who would be a better target?

Fairly point about PPS, and he still has a decent die stored, so we will probably be fine with you targeting someone else. Your role is already confirmed anyway.

[Hydrad]

well you said all the other days that your dice seemed manipulated. It doesn't really matter.

Oh no today I played a stored dice also. And ya still have yet to roll higher then a 7 but it doesn't look like anyone has a power like that so i'm guessing I've just had incredibly bad luck.

[Hydrad]

As for lio, probably best to target PPS. He needs dice.

BA targeting WW is silly, he won't do that. I don't want to give dice to scum, so I probably won't do that. Although that means we can force him to roll. 1d12 is a big range though, so he could claim to have just gotten 1 die even if he got 12.

faust, every other time someone was attacked Jimmmmm announced it. Do you think this is any different?

Why is BA targeting WW silly? Who would be a better target?

Fairly point about PPS, and he still has a decent die stored, so we will probably be fine with you targeting someone else. Your role is already confirmed anyway.

Wait if PPS still has a dice stored but no dice... I don't think he can play it?

[faust]

If I didn't know better, I would say lio is scum partners with BA and WW. Reaally strange behaviour towards them.

[faust]

As for lio, probably best to target PPS. He needs dice.

BA targeting WW is silly, he won't do that. I don't want to give dice to scum, so I probably won't do that. Although that means we can force him to roll. 1d12 is a big range though, so he could claim to have just gotten 1 die even if he got 12.

faust, every other time someone was attacked Jimmmmm announced it. Do you think this is any different?

Why is BA targeting WW silly? Who would be a better target?

Fairly point about PPS, and he still has a decent die stored, so we will probably be fine with you targeting someone else. Your role is already confirmed anyway.

Wait if PPS still has a dice stored but no dice... I don't think he can play it?

From reading the OP, I think it should be possible.

[Hydrad]

ah. i see.

[Beyond Awesome]

well you said all the other days that your dice seemed manipulated. It doesn't really matter.

Oh no today I played a stored dice also. And ya still have yet to roll higher then a 7 but it doesn't look like anyone has a power like that so i'm guessing I've just had incredibly bad luck.

It could be that since both you and I played stored dice that is why we haven't seen anything announced with the monster...unless Faust's theory holds true and the monster's attack was to steal from someone. I am kind of doubting that though.

[Hydrad]

did the grim reaper have a ability to steal dice?

[faust]

did the grim reaper have a ability to steal dice?

No.

[Hydrad]

well then I have no real theorys except that maybe asher lied to try and make it seem like someone targeted him to make him seem towny?

Either way if asher isn't scum this game will make very little sense. I would say WW/BA are the only other ones I can think of that might be a scum team. And if he isn't scum that means either he lied for no reason/ somehow there is 3 dice stealers/ faust is lying...

the faust is lying doesn't really make sense unless its somehow a PPS/faust team which seems so improbable.

Anyways I guess I'll have time to think of that tomorrow if I somehow survive the night.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, so I have been thinking about the Ogre attack, and I see three possibilities

1) Faust is right and the Ogre stole from someone
2) The Ogre attack fails because Hydrad and I used stored dice
3) We have not yet seen what the Ogre attack does because scum is waiting to use its ability

[Hydrad]

Personally I feel like its 3)

[faust]

BA, do you agree to target WW tonight?

[pingpongsam]

I did not steal nor could I be stolen from. My stored die is not a 1 or a 2 since it was not possible for me to roll that yesterday. It is however a decent die for the other monsters. I shan't be playing my die today.

I think it is a good possibility that the ogre effects have not been seen because both plays were stored dice.

Other than the chairs effect my rolls seemed normal and even favorable yesterday.

[Witherweaver]

All I know is I stole from PPS and nothing happened.

So you gave PPS dice, and then you stole them?

[faust]

All I know is I stole from PPS and nothing happened.

So you gave PPS dice, and then you stole them?

Well, I tried to. Obviously I didn't succeed.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, so one of {Faust, Ash, Hydrad} is scum?

So, 8 alive, 2 scum.  Faust gets his wish and lynches me today, I flip town, BA is confirmed town.  Night kill, 6 alive, 2 scum.  Now this is MyLo.  Who would scum!Faust try to mislynch here? Whoever in {Ash, PPS, Lio} isn't his partner I guess.  Is this a good scum strategy?  Maybe.  A stronger one, I think, would to argue for the mislynch out of {Ash, PPS, Lio, Hydrad, Archetype} today and then try to mislynch me/BA for the win. 

I think scum!Faust would know we're telling the truth and not argue against us so much.  Though the "okay we'll lynch Ash but if he's town definitely lynch WW/BA" thing is worrysome, basically trying to set up the two mislynches needed to win.

So now.. Hydrad is the only unconfirmed player that knew Ichi was in the council.  Does scum see an advantage to killing Ichi because of the council?  Maybe they thought it would be a lot harder to push for mislynching me and BA with two players verifying what was said in the council.  But Hydrad has been saying BA and I are believable, and his attitude towards BA and myself sounds more genuine than faked.. for this to be reasonable it would have to be BA/Faust with BA arguing for us as town and Faust arguing for us as scum.  I'm having trouble seeing this as a very reasonable strategy. 

Ichi was a self-proclaimed IC, and wasn't getting a lot of suspicion, so that could explain the kill easily enough.

Ash has just been all kinds of suspicious.. hammering Volt being among the top things.  He'd still be my pick within {Ash, Hydrad, Faust}. Then again, it's silly for scum!Ash to lie now and create a 1-1 type of thing (or 1-1-1 type of thing).  Scum!Ash would know Hydrad was the target of the attack, and he'd have to know that it would be {Ash, Hydrad, Faust} and he'd be the most suspicious.  Maybe he thought he was screwed so he had to try something. 

Ash also had little or nothing to say about BA and I being Town, so that's suspicious.

My preference in the set is Ash > Faust > Hydrad.

[Witherweaver]

All I know is I stole from PPS and nothing happened.

So you gave PPS dice, and then you stole them?

Well, I tried to. Obviously I didn't succeed.

So the obvious implied question is why did you give him dice just to try to steal them back later? 

[faust]

Okay, so one of {Faust, Ash, Hydrad} is scum?

How do you jump to that conclusion?

[faust]

All I know is I stole from PPS and nothing happened.

So you gave PPS dice, and then you stole them?

Well, I tried to. Obviously I didn't succeed.

So the obvious implied question is why did you give him dice just to try to steal them back later?

You will see that I argued for checking PPS' story by trying to steal from him earlier. Well, when I got the role, I saw that stealing has some negative effect if I don't succeed. So PPS needed to have some dice before I could safely target him.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, so one of {Faust, Ash, Hydrad} is scum?

How do you jump to that conclusion?

I consider the case where the monster attacks during the night and depletes someone's supply without it being announced to us not a likely enough scenario.

What's the other option?

[Witherweaver]

All I know is I stole from PPS and nothing happened.

So you gave PPS dice, and then you stole them?

Well, I tried to. Obviously I didn't succeed.

So the obvious implied question is why did you give him dice just to try to steal them back later?

You will see that I argued for checking PPS' story by trying to steal from him earlier. Well, when I got the role, I saw that stealing has some negative effect if I don't succeed. So PPS needed to have some dice before I could safely target him.

Okay, so.. say PPS has zero dice, you give PPS dice, he doesn't use them all.. you steal some dice... what does this verify?  How is this distinguishable from PPS not starting with zero dice?

[Witherweaver]

Also, how is this distinguishable from PPS lying about his Day 1 attack but still using all his dice yesterday?

[ashersky]

Remember how everybody and their moms (except me) had huge town reads on Faust?  And I kept asking why?  And no one answered satisfactorily?

If he was so town for so long, why is he not dead?

[ashersky]

I never claimed my dice were "stolen."  I claimed that someone targeted me last night and now I have no dice.

[ashersky]

For council to be useful to town or harmful to mafia, it couldn't just be a one night neighborhood.

[ashersky]

For council to be useful to town or harmful to mafia, it couldn't just be a one night neighborhood.

So theoretically masons inside makes some sense.

Could the QT do anything?

[Hydrad]

For council to be useful to town or harmful to mafia, it couldn't just be a one night neighborhood.

So theoretically masons inside makes some sense.

Could the QT do anything?

I did not get some sort of ability to use from the QT. maybe BA and WW did but they didn't discuss about getting an extra power or anything

[faust]

Okay, so one of {Faust, Ash, Hydrad} is scum?

How do you jump to that conclusion?

I consider the case where the monster attacks during the night and depletes someone's supply without it being announced to us not a likely enough scenario.

What's the other option?

Then what's your more likely scenario? Scum!ash is lying, and it brings him no benefit at all, but only more suspicion, when he could just have stayed quiet? Scum!me is lying without any reason at all? Scum!Hydrad is lying, which again does nothing for him, but instead makes him more suspicious?

Sorry, but I cannot see how you would assume any of these scenarios as likely.

[faust]

Okay, so.. say PPS has zero dice, you give PPS dice, he doesn't use them all.. you steal some dice... what does this verify?  How is this distinguishable from PPS not starting with zero dice?

If I had received more dice than I gave him, I would have known he was lying.

[Beyond Awesome]

For council to be useful to town or harmful to mafia, it couldn't just be a one night neighborhood.

What makes you think that it wouldn't be a one night deal?

Also, I just thought of something. I think Faust is telling the truth. If he targeted PPS and got nothing back then that sounds actually realistic. PPS could verify he had no dice. The only way that Faust would by lying in this case if he and PPS are partners and the plan was to lynch Ash today by framing him and then mislynch another player the next day.

So, that actually means we have only a couple of possibilities.
1) Either Hydrad or Ash are lying about being stolen from.
2) The Ogre attack stole from either Ash or Hydrad
3) Faust and PPS are scum partners and Faust lied about targeting PPS.

PPE 2

[faust]

Also, how is this distinguishable from PPS lying about his Day 1 attack but still using all his dice yesterday?

It's not. I'm not saying PPS is conf!town to me.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, so.. say PPS has zero dice, you give PPS dice, he doesn't use them all.. you steal some dice... what does this verify?  How is this distinguishable from PPS not starting with zero dice?

If I had received more dice than I gave him, I would have known he was lying.

How many did you give him?

[faust]

Remember how everybody and their moms (except me) had huge town reads on Faust?  And I kept asking why?  And no one answered satisfactorily?

If he was so town for so long, why is he not dead?

I couldn't be killed N1. N2, Xerxes was more townie than me. N3, BA and WW were afraid of Ichi seeing through their fakeclaim.

[faust]

For council to be useful to town or harmful to mafia, it couldn't just be a one night neighborhood.

So theoretically masons inside makes some sense.

Could the QT do anything?

But why are the Masons called "Alice" and "Bob"? Why not just real names? I think codenames only make sense for scum.

[faust]

For council to be useful to town or harmful to mafia, it couldn't just be a one night neighborhood.

What makes you think that it wouldn't be a one night deal?

Also, I just thought of something. I think Faust is telling the truth. If he targeted PPS and got nothing back then that sounds actually realistic. PPS could verify he had no dice. The only way that Faust would by lying in this case if he and PPS are partners and the plan was to lynch Ash today by framing him and then mislynch another player the next day.

So, that actually means we have only a couple of possibilities.
1) Either Hydrad or Ash are lying about being stolen from.
2) The Ogre attack stole from either Ash or Hydrad
3) Faust and PPS are scum partners and Faust lied about targeting PPS.

PPE 2

In the case of 3, why would I target ashersky and not PPS?

[Beyond Awesome]

For council to be useful to town or harmful to mafia, it couldn't just be a one night neighborhood.

So theoretically masons inside makes some sense.

Could the QT do anything?

But why are the Masons called "Alice" and "Bob"? Why not just real names? I think codenames only make sense for scum.

The mod came up with the names. Not us.

[Beyond Awesome]

For council to be useful to town or harmful to mafia, it couldn't just be a one night neighborhood.

What makes you think that it wouldn't be a one night deal?

Also, I just thought of something. I think Faust is telling the truth. If he targeted PPS and got nothing back then that sounds actually realistic. PPS could verify he had no dice. The only way that Faust would by lying in this case if he and PPS are partners and the plan was to lynch Ash today by framing him and then mislynch another player the next day.

So, that actually means we have only a couple of possibilities.
1) Either Hydrad or Ash are lying about being stolen from.
2) The Ogre attack stole from either Ash or Hydrad
3) Faust and PPS are scum partners and Faust lied about targeting PPS.

PPE 2

In the case of 3, why would I target ashersky and not PPS?

In the case of 3, you didn't target PPS. You would know Ash is town, target Ash and try to frame him.

[faust]

Okay, so.. say PPS has zero dice, you give PPS dice, he doesn't use them all.. you steal some dice... what does this verify?  How is this distinguishable from PPS not starting with zero dice?

If I had received more dice than I gave him, I would have known he was lying.

How many did you give him?

6. I assumed that as town, he would roll at least two and store one, so the higher the number of dice I get, the more suspicious he is.

[Witherweaver]

For council to be useful to town or harmful to mafia, it couldn't just be a one night neighborhood.

So theoretically masons inside makes some sense.

Could the QT do anything?

But why are the Masons called "Alice" and "Bob"? Why not just real names? I think codenames only make sense for scum.

Because Hydrad  and Ichi were not confirmed town

[faust]

In the case of 3, you didn't target PPS. You would know Ash is town, target Ash and try to frame him.

But I'm not framing him. And also, how does that even frame ashersky?

[faust]

For council to be useful to town or harmful to mafia, it couldn't just be a one night neighborhood.

So theoretically masons inside makes some sense.

Could the QT do anything?

But why are the Masons called "Alice" and "Bob"? Why not just real names? I think codenames only make sense for scum.

Because Hydrad  and Ichi were not confirmed town

So what? You could have just chosen not to reveal your Masonry.

[faust]

The mod came up with the names. Not us.

Yes, and there's a reason he came up with them.

[Witherweaver]

Yes, that was an option.  Another option is to keep identity secret.  Why is that one better?

[faust]

I'm going to share one vital piece of information I didn't consider before:

The Grim Reaper is able to distribute 1-shot Lynchproofs.

Which means it's perfectly possible that BA is lynchproof. We better lynch him today.

Vote: BA

[faust]

I'm done arguing with BA and WW. If anyone else has any questions, feel free to ask.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, so.. say PPS has zero dice, you give PPS dice, he doesn't use them all.. you steal some dice... what does this verify?  How is this distinguishable from PPS not starting with zero dice?

If I had received more dice than I gave him, I would have known he was lying.

How many did you give him?

6. I assumed that as town, he would roll at least two and store one, so the higher the number of dice I get, the more suspicious he is.

So you'd just let 1, 2, 3 be a wash?

PPS, why roll all six dice yesterday when Chairs bad rolls effect them and not today's?

[Witherweaver]

We're not lynching BA today.  Or ever.  He's the only player I know is town.

You'd be much better served actually figuring out who scum is.  Because the more you try to lynch the town players the less convinced I become that you're not scum.

[faust]

We're not lynching BA today.  Or ever.  He's the only player I know is town.

You'd be much better served actually figuring out who scum is.  Because the more you try to lynch the town players the less convinced I become that you're not scum.

I have figured out who scum is. And stop threatening me with OMGUS, it's ridiculous.

[Witherweaver]

I'm going to share one vital piece of information I didn't consider before:

The Grim Reaper is able to distribute 1-shot Lynchproofs.

Which means it's perfectly possible that BA is lynchproof. We better lynch him today.

Vote: BA

Yeah, good call. I buy Lynchproof to protect my partner then announce that the Grim Reaper visited me when I didn't have do.  Brilliant reasoning.

[Witherweaver]

We're not lynching BA today.  Or ever.  He's the only player I know is town.

You'd be much better served actually figuring out who scum is.  Because the more you try to lynch the town players the less convinced I become that you're not scum.

I have figured out who scum is. And stop threatening me with OMGUS, it's ridiculous.

Stop voting for town!  It's ridiculous.

[faust]

WW, even though you're scum, I would prefer if we could be stay within the bounds of the civility pledge.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, so one of {Faust, Ash, Hydrad} is scum?

How do you jump to that conclusion?

I consider the case where the monster attacks during the night and depletes someone's supply without it being announced to us not a likely enough scenario.

What's the other option?

Then what's your more likely scenario? Scum!ash is lying, and it brings him no benefit at all, but only more suspicion, when he could just have stayed quiet? Scum!me is lying without any reason at all? Scum!Hydrad is lying, which again does nothing for him, but instead makes him more suspicious?

Sorry, but I cannot see how you would assume any of these scenarios as likely.

Because the other explanation isn't any good.

Also possible, but even less likely, is an Ash/Hydrad team, where they both claimed to have been attacked to get one lynched to try to give IC status to the other.

[Witherweaver]

WW, even though you're scum, I would prefer if we could be stay within the bounds of the civility pledge.

I am, I'm simply telling you that you're wrong.

[Hydrad]

I'm going to share one vital piece of information I didn't consider before:

The Grim Reaper is able to distribute 1-shot Lynchproofs.

Which means it's perfectly possible that BA is lynchproof. We better lynch him today.

Vote: BA

wasn't the vig power only town only? is the lynchproof usable by anyone?

[Witherweaver]

I'm going to share one vital piece of information I didn't consider before:

The Grim Reaper is able to distribute 1-shot Lynchproofs.

Which means it's perfectly possible that BA is lynchproof. We better lynch him today.

Vote: BA

wasn't the vig power only town only? is the lynchproof usable by anyone?

Yes, no alignment restriction.

[Beyond Awesome]

I am sorry, but PPS rolling six dice is the scummiest thing ever. Even scummier is Faust brushing it off like it is nothing.

I am becoming more and more convinced that Faust and PPS are the scum team.

[faust]

Because the other explanation isn't any good.

Also possible, but even less likely, is an Ash/Hydrad team, where they both claimed to have been attacked to get one lynched to try to give IC status to the other.

And I'm telling you these explanations are even worse.

Ahhhh, I wanted to stop this!

[Beyond Awesome]

Faust if you really are town what you are doing right now is not helpful at all.

[Beyond Awesome]

Why do you think PPS is town when he rolled all six dice in one day? Please explain that to me please.

[Beyond Awesome]

Vote: PPS

[Witherweaver]

Because the other explanation isn't any good.

Also possible, but even less likely, is an Ash/Hydrad team, where they both claimed to have been attacked to get one lynched to try to give IC status to the other.

And I'm telling you these explanations are even worse.

Ahhhh, I wanted to stop this!

Why wouldn't there be an announcement when the monster attacks, like there has been every other time?

[faust]

Why do you think PPS is town when he rolled all six dice in one day? Please explain that to me please.

Why don't you? Rolling six is a good way to ensure you get two good ones, one to use now and one for later use. Especially since some low numbers were blocked.

[Witherweaver]

Why do you think PPS is town when he rolled all six dice in one day? Please explain that to me please.

During the day when his rolls were harmed, nonetheless.

[Witherweaver]

Why do you think PPS is town when he rolled all six dice in one day? Please explain that to me please.

Why don't you? Rolling six is a good way to ensure you get two good ones, one to use now and one for later use. Especially since some low numbers were blocked.

Did he play one yesterday?

[faust]

Why wouldn't there be an announcement when the monster attacks, like there has been every other time?

Maybe the power is not steal, maybe it is scum may use their powers twice, what do I know? Maybe Jimmmm decided it's better this way.

[Beyond Awesome]

Why do you think PPS is town when he rolled all six dice in one day? Please explain that to me please.

Why don't you? Rolling six is a good way to ensure you get two good ones, one to use now and one for later use. Especially since some low numbers were blocked.

Because rolling all of your dice makes sure you can't roll on future days. Come on Faust. You are sounding super scummy right here. I hate to say it.

[faust]

Why do you think PPS is town when he rolled all six dice in one day? Please explain that to me please.

Why don't you? Rolling six is a good way to ensure you get two good ones, one to use now and one for later use. Especially since some low numbers were blocked.

Did he play one yesterday?

You're kidding, right? You have to play a die if you roll more than one.

[faust]

Love the OMGUS spiral.

[Witherweaver]

Why do you think PPS is town when he rolled all six dice in one day? Please explain that to me please.

Why don't you? Rolling six is a good way to ensure you get two good ones, one to use now and one for later use. Especially since some low numbers were blocked.

Did he play one yesterday?

You're kidding, right? You have to play a die if you roll more than one.

That's true. 

[faust]

How you two would love to be able to lynch me today.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, overall, I feel very confident right now with a PPS lynch. I think either Ash or Faust is his partner, but I am not sure which one.

[Beyond Awesome]

How you two would love to be able to lynch me today.

No. I just want to lynch your partner.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, overall, I feel very confident right now with a PPS lynch. I think either Ash or Faust is his partner, but I am not sure which one.

I think PPS and Faust can't have different alignments.  I'm not certain of that, but I think it's the case.

[faust]

Okay, overall, I feel very confident right now with a PPS lynch. I think either Ash or Faust is his partner, but I am not sure which one.

How you two would love to be able to lynch me today.

No. I just want to lynch your partner.

Contradicting yourself much?

[Witherweaver]

How you two would love to be able to lynch me today.

Not sure what makes you think you're at all unable to be lynched.  (Unless you did buy lynchproof.)

What I really want is for you to be town and actually help me figure out who scum is.

[ashersky]

This feels like a bastard game.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, overall, I feel very confident right now with a PPS lynch. I think either Ash or Faust is his partner, but I am not sure which one.

How you two would love to be able to lynch me today.

No. I just want to lynch your partner.

Contradicting yourself much?

That's not even a contradiction, it's just an implied accusation.

[Witherweaver]

This feels like a bastard game.

Personally, the whole dice/monster mechanic is making everything a lot harder for me.

[faust]

ashersky's signature is relevant here.

[ashersky]

This feels like a bastard game.

Personally, the whole dice/monster mechanic is making everything a lot harder for me.

I didn't mean the setup, just how everyone is playing.

No one is town, if I go off of gut.

[Witherweaver]

This feels like a bastard game.

Personally, the whole dice/monster mechanic is making everything a lot harder for me.

I didn't mean the setup, just how everyone is playing.

No one is town, if I go off of gut.

I mean it's making reading people and figuring things out really hard.  It's just a lot more information to sort through and think about. 

[Beyond Awesome]

Does anyone else find it scummy that PPS rolled his entire supply of dice in one day after getting six dice? Or am I going crazy here?

[ashersky]

Does anyone else find it scummy that PPS rolled his entire supply of dice in one day after getting six dice? Or am I going crazy here?

Not any scummier than claiming secret masons inside a secret neighborhood.

[ashersky]

Can someone just own up to targeting me last night?

[Hydrad]

ok WW/BA I'm just going to say this. I'm almost 100% sure faust is town even though it seems like hes being scummy. Hes tunneling you guys so hard because you were his top 2 reads and you just so happened to claim masons. Honestly I completly understand his thinking and I think its good for this game just incase that possibility happened. However it makes almost no sense for scum faust to do this. He pretty much had a free win with no one even considering him being scum so there is really no reason for scum faust to be pushing the lynch onto you guys.

It could be a super meta way to throw off the game but honestly I don't see him trying it. I don't think faust is going to stop targeting you guys so I just suggest we find the actual scum and hope we hit one of them. If we manage to do that you won't have to prove your innocence anymore. I highly doubt you guys will be lynched today as it seems almost everyone agrees to trying to lynch lio/asher/pps today (other then faust).

PPE:3

[Witherweaver]

Stuff Ichi brought up in the QT regarding reads:

(Paraphrasing)

*Ash is very scummy, in particular making the post saying Archetype was his only town read. 
*Unsure on Faust, but suspicious because he (Ichi) was tunneled Day 1, and he (Ichi) could see Ash putting suspicion on his partner as he had been (referring to Ash going after Faust yesterday, I think)
*Unsure on Lio

*Also shared about who he was visited by the night before.  Admitted some stuff that makes him a better kill target (which implicates Hydrad somewhat).

PPE: Hydrad

[Witherweaver]

ok WW/BA I'm just going to say this. I'm almost 100% sure faust is town even though it seems like hes being scummy. Hes tunneling you guys so hard because you were his top 2 reads and you just so happened to claim masons. Honestly I completly understand his thinking and I think its good for this game just incase that possibility happened. However it makes almost no sense for scum faust to do this. He pretty much had a free win with no one even considering him being scum so there is really no reason for scum faust to be pushing the lynch onto you guys.

It could be a super meta way to throw off the game but honestly I don't see him trying it. I don't think faust is going to stop targeting you guys so I just suggest we find the actual scum and hope we hit one of them. If we manage to do that you won't have to prove your innocence anymore. I highly doubt you guys will be lynched today as it seems almost everyone agrees to trying to lynch lio/asher/pps today (other then faust).

PPE:3

This is a good point.  I have to think this isn't a good avenue for scum!Faust to pursue.

[Witherweaver]

Ash, can you claim your actual role?

[Hydrad]

Ash, can you claim your actual role?

he claimed VT

[Witherweaver]

Ash, can you claim your actual role?

he claimed VT

Okay, right, thanks.

[Hydrad]

also how much paraphrasing is allowed. I'm wondering if I should pretty much paraphrase every post BA and WW did in the QT as I feel it felt really towny.

[Witherweaver]

also how much paraphrasing is allowed. I'm wondering if I should pretty much paraphrase every post BA and WW did in the QT as I feel it felt really towny.

You can paraphrase as much as you want, you just can't directly quote anything.

[ashersky]

Ash, can you claim your actual role?

he claimed VT

Okay, right, thanks.

If it matters, it doesn't say VT in my PM.  It says I have no special role.

[Witherweaver]

Ash, can you claim your actual role?

he claimed VT

If it matters, it doesn't say VT in my PM.  It says I have no special role.

Hm.. Box flipped Vanilla Town.

[Witherweaver]

"Townie," to be precise. 

[Beyond Awesome]

Ash, can you claim your actual role?

he claimed VT

Okay, right, thanks.

If it matters, it doesn't say VT in my PM.  It says I have no special role.

On page 1, Jimm has a post showing the VT message. You could have just looked up page 1 and hoped no one else noticed.

[Beyond Awesome]

VT PM

flavour

Welcome Player to Dice Mafia. You have no special role.

You are Town-aligned. You win when the Mafia has been eliminated and at least one Town player is alive.

Personal QT: link

[Witherweaver]

I'm not sure there's much there.  If I got that PM I'd call it VT too.

[ashersky]

You mean and not said anything?

[Hydrad]

Ok here is WW and BA's interactions during the QT I feel like it will help them seem more towny but maybe there is something I missed so I guess more info is always good.

(first couple posts happen pretty fast so I feel like scum wouldn't of had time to discuss a mason plan by the time they admitted it?)
BA: asks WW if he knows who he is and suggests the idea of waiting till D4 to reveal their identities.
WW: accepts the offer of waiting till D4 to reveal and says BA was confirmed town to him
Me: I ask for the purpose of the hidden names
WW: Replies that WW and BA are masons and don't want to reveal their names incase me or ichi are scum.

BA: tells WW that he thinks only WW was turned into a mason and that BA still gets to retain his role.
BA: says he is waiting for confermation to see if he was turned into a mason
WW: says he just got a inivite that said he was joining the council with his "fellow mason" and would be surprised if BA didn't get the same thing.
BA: says he got the same message and was wondering if their old roles went away.
BA: says Jimm said he gets to keep their old abilities
WW: asks Jimmm if we BA and WW get to keep the QT for other nights.


So thats the basis of what happened. There is obviously some stuff I left out but I put in everything that was about the mason roles and their interactions with each other.

Hopefully you can gain something from this

PPE:8...

[ashersky]

Were you all using the QT with your normal screen names?

[Beyond Awesome]

Were you all using the QT with your normal screen names?

No. I was given the name Bob. WW was given the name Alice.

[Hydrad]

me and ichi were using our screen names though.

[Witherweaver]

Ah, Hydrad brings up a good point I didn't think about, and makes me think he's a lot more townie now.  If BA and I had discussed being Masons in scum QT, I certainly would have described what Masons are to him there, not in the Council QT.

Also, that the QT opened up at 2:30 in the morning and BA started posting right away (well, at 3:30 AM) should indicate that we had no time to collaborate.

[Beyond Awesome]

Ah, Hydrad brings up a good point I didn't think about, and makes me think he's a lot more townie now.  If BA and I had discussed being Masons in scum QT, I certainly would have described what Masons are to him there, not in the Council QT.

Yah. I did not know what a Mason was. I thought it was a new title that replaced our old roles and meant that we no longer had our powers still.

[ashersky]

Weird.

[liopoil]

BA-WW and faust, all three of you are assumed town for now, stop suspecting each other please.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, well, I am pretty sure Hydrad is town, so I don't think he is lying about being stolen from.

Faust is most likely also telling the truth.

So, that leaves Ash.

I don't see Ash as scum lying about being stolen from. That makes very little sense. Maybe he would do it as an act of desperation and try to frame Faust, but, seriously, did he think something like that work. So, I don't think Ash is lying either. So, that means, most likely the Ogre attack steals dice. At least, I am going to assume that for now until I find out otherwise.

So, what does Ash being stole from tell us? Nothing. If Ash were scum, he would steal from himself to look more townie, and if Ash were town, scum would try to frame him by stealing from him. It is pure WIFOM at this point.

[pingpongsam]

I rolled all six dice yesterday because

A) I wanted to get a good high number that could be used against the witch.
B) I wanted to store a die for tomorrow
B1) I wanted my stored die options to have a decent chance of being useful
B2) I already knew my roll restrictions yesterday where I would not know them today. I knew I was out for the ogre but not the other two monsters.
C) I wanted to avoid having my dice stolen

PS no other combination of rolls allowed me to increase my odds of useful dice because with 6 dice it was a matter of rolling 2 or 3 dice and having to store and play and discard so just rolling them all seemed wisest. Being painted scum for making the obvious best decision makes me think Faust might be onto something with BA.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 4.1

ashersky (2): pingpongsam, Archetype
Beyond Awesome (1): faust
pingpongsam (1): Beyond Awesome

not voting (4): ashersky, Witherweaver, liopoil, Hydrad

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 26 at 11am forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 28 at 11am forum time.

Target: 4
Score: 4

[Hydrad]

ok for my vote I'm pretty much going to either go PPS or asher. Both of there claims could easily be lies and they both feel the most scummy. I just have a bad feeling that if we mislynch here that we might lose this game so i'm going to reread just these two people and see who I think is more likely the scum.

[Witherweaver]

I rolled all six dice yesterday because

A) I wanted to get a good high number that could be used against the witch.
B) I wanted to store a die for tomorrow
B1) I wanted my stored die options to have a decent chance of being useful
B2) I already knew my roll restrictions yesterday where I would not know them today. I knew I was out for the ogre but not the other two monsters.
C) I wanted to avoid having my dice stolen

PS no other combination of rolls allowed me to increase my odds of useful dice because with 6 dice it was a matter of rolling 2 or 3 dice and having to store and play and discard so just rolling them all seemed wisest. Being painted scum for making the obvious best decision makes me think Faust might be onto something with BA.

It wasn't the obvious best decision to me, but I was neglecting the cost of storing and playing a stored die.  So, that makes sense.

(Assuming I'm remembering correctly that you can still store and play a stored die with 0 in supply.)

[Witherweaver]

Did you think the thief was scum?

[Hydrad]

I don't believe you can play a supply dice at 0 supply. although I havn't tried.

[faust]

I don't believe you can play a supply dice at 0 supply. although I havn't tried.

You're wrong, read the OP.

[faust]

So, coordination is a thing.

WW, target one of Archetype/liopoil tonight.
Hydrad, target WW tonight. Block a random number.
BA, target WW tonight.
As for lio, probably best to target PPS. He needs dice.
I don't think there's a really good target for me. Not sure what I'll do, suggestions?

So yeah, that plan should catch WW/BA in a lie, if we assume one of them is the dice destroyer.

I am asking again, WW, BA, do you agree to this? If you do, I will gladly lynch ashersky.

[faust]

Play: 1 just to be safe.

[faust]

I think everyone should, when assessing a player's scumminess, focus much more on their voting pattern and much less on their contributions to monster fighting.

[faust]

Here are the voting patterns to analyze:

D1

Beyond Awesome: BoxOfDOG (1), Ichimaru Gin (3), Voltaire (5)
pingpongsam: yuma/e (1), ashersky (1), liopoil (4), ashersky (1), Voltaire (7)
ashersky: mail-mi/Archetype (1), liopoil (3), pingpongsam (2), Voltaire (
faust: Ichimaru Gin (1), ashersky (1), Ichimaru Gin (2), Voltaire (6)
liopoil: XerxesPraelor (1), mail-mi/Archetype (1)
mail-mi/Archetype: Voltaire (1)
Witherweaver: Ichimaru Gin (4), Beyond Awesome (2)
Hydrad: Voltaire (2)

chairs: Witherweaver (1)
yuma/e: liopoil (2), pingpongsam (1)
Ichimaru Gin: faust (1), BoxOfDOG (1), Voltaire (3)
XerxesPraelor: mail-mi (1), Ichimaru Gin (1), liopoil (1), Beyond Awesome (1), liopoil (5), Voltaire (4)
Voltaire: Hydrad (1), Ichimaru Gin (5), liopoil (1), Ichimaru Gin (2)

D2

ashersky: Beyond Awesome (1), liopoil (1), Hydrad (1)
mail-mi/Archetype: chairs (1)
faust: yuma/e (1), Beyond Awesome (2), Witherweaver (1), yuma/e (2), Witherweaver (1), yuma/e (4)
Witherweaver: Beyond Awesome (3), yuma/e (4), pingpongsam (2), yuma/e (5)
Hydrad: Beyond Awesome (4), Witherweaver (2), Beyond Awesome (3), yuma/e (4)
pingpongsam: ashersky (1), yuma/e (1)
liopoil: pingpongsam (1), Beyond Awesome (5)
Beyond Awesome: liopoil (2), yuma/e (5), chairs (2), yuma/e (6)

yuma/e: Beyond Awesome (2), faust (2), Beyond Awesome (2)
chairs: Beyond Awesome (5), yuma/e (7)
XerxesPraelor: Beyond Awesome (3), yuma/e (3), Hydrad (1), faust (1), Hydrad (2), Beyond Awesome (4), yuma/e (3), pingpongsam (2)
Ichimaru Gin: Beyond Awesome (2), chairs (2), pingpongsam (1), faust (3), yuma/e (4)

D3

ashersky: pingpongsam (1), faust (1), chairs (6)
liopoil: chairs (1)
mail-mi/Archetype: chairs (2)
pingpongsam: chairs (3), liopoil (1), ashersky (2), chairs (5)
Beyond Awesome: chairs (4), ashersky (3), chairs (4)
faust: ashersky (1), Witherweaver (1), ashersky (2)
Hydrad: chairs (3)
Witherweaver: Hydrad (1)

chairs: chairs (5)

[Witherweaver]

So, coordination is a thing.

WW, target one of Archetype/liopoil tonight.
Hydrad, target WW tonight. Block a random number.
BA, target WW tonight.
As for lio, probably best to target PPS. He needs dice.
I don't think there's a really good target for me. Not sure what I'll do, suggestions?

So yeah, that plan should catch WW/BA in a lie, if we assume one of them is the dice destroyer.

I am asking again, WW, BA, do you agree to this? If you do, I will gladly lynch ashersky.

I don't really mind doing this, buy my role really does do what it says, so whomever I target will have their rolls affected.  Probably not a big issue if we get the odds only monster

[faust]

So, coordination is a thing.

WW, target one of Archetype/liopoil tonight.
Hydrad, target WW tonight. Block a random number.
BA, target WW tonight.
As for lio, probably best to target PPS. He needs dice.
I don't think there's a really good target for me. Not sure what I'll do, suggestions?

So yeah, that plan should catch WW/BA in a lie, if we assume one of them is the dice destroyer.

I am asking again, WW, BA, do you agree to this? If you do, I will gladly lynch ashersky.

I don't really mind doing this, buy my role really does do what it says, so whomever I target will have their rolls affected.  Probably not a big issue if we get the odds only monster

Yeah, well... it doesn't really hurt us much. Odds only is not a big deal, and for the dragon I guess we should be starting with low-ish number anyway.

[liopoil]

So, coordination is a thing.

WW, target one of Archetype/liopoil tonight.
Hydrad, target WW tonight. Block a random number.
BA, target WW tonight.
As for lio, probably best to target PPS. He needs dice.
I don't think there's a really good target for me. Not sure what I'll do, suggestions?

So yeah, that plan should catch WW/BA in a lie, if we assume one of them is the dice destroyer.

I am asking again, WW, BA, do you agree to this? If you do, I will gladly lynch ashersky.

I don't really mind doing this, buy my role really does do what it says, so whomever I target will have their rolls affected.  Probably not a big issue if we get the odds only monster

why arch or me? If we are trying to target town with this, targeting faust or hydrad is better even though one will probably die. If we are trying to target scum with this, target arch/pps/ash, not me!

I understand the idea here now... but I highly doubt that they are lying about their roles, even if they are mafia. We don't know if BA's role happens before or after hydrad's too.

[liopoil]

Well, I think I am going to go ahead and just roll 2 dice, hoping to get a good one to store.

[faust]

why arch or me? If we are trying to target town with this, targeting faust or hydrad is better even though one will probably die. If we are trying to target scum with this, target arch/pps/ash, not me!

I understand the idea here now... but I highly doubt that they are lying about their roles, even if they are mafia. We don't know if BA's role happens before or after hydrad's too.

I want someone targeted who will still be alive tomorrow, which excludes me and Hydrad. ash will probably be lynched, so bad. PPS has no dice left, so no confirmation possible (unless you target him). Which leaves you and Arch.

I still think someone is lying and there's a dice destroyer. And even if you don't, better safe than sorry. And it's not like we can do other productive things with these roles.

[liopoil]

Would we rather target town or scum with it though? I'm leaning towards town actually. So probably target me then.

[liopoil]

I still think someone is lying and there's a dice destroyer. And even if you don't, better safe than sorry. And it's not like we can do other productive things with these roles.

Oh, good point.

There are only two monsters left... Anyone need dice besides pps? If not, I think I will give to pps, even though he is probably scum, because I think we want to be able to make scum roll dice for us. Although really, he says he has a good die anyway. So hmmm, I think my role is less useful now.

[Jimmmmm]

faust plays a 1
Score: 5

[faust]

I still think someone is lying and there's a dice destroyer. And even if you don't, better safe than sorry. And it's not like we can do other productive things with these roles.

Oh, good point.

There are only two monsters left... Anyone need dice besides pps? If not, I think I will give to pps, even though he is probably scum, because I think we want to be able to make scum roll dice for us. Although really, he says he has a good die anyway. So hmmm, I think my role is less useful now.

I guess it would be good if you and me target the same person. That way, we make sure I don't leave anyone out of dice.

[pingpongsam]

If we get the odd monster I am good tomorrow. If we get the n-1 monster we need to coordinate what we have before anyone plays tomorrow. Mine will be a later number. If lio wants to give me some dice to possibly roll a more workable number that is fine.

[pingpongsam]

I am anxious to see ashersky and arch get back later today and post their thoughts.

[liopoil]

Play: 8

Yes, that was the lowest number of the two.

[pingpongsam]

I don't get why we keep tempting fate by playing dice we don't need. If this results in an ogre attack trigger I am calling scum interference.

[liopoil]

I don't get why we keep tempting fate by playing dice we don't need. If this results in an ogre attack trigger I am calling scum interference.

I rolled just to get a die to store, which I did successfully.

Should we coordinate where the grim reaper, dice vendor, and mentalist go? Mentalist is only useful if you have 20 pips, dice vendor you just need a stored die you'd like to exchange, and I don't know how many pips you need for any of the grim reaper effects. Do we even get to choose where the grim reaper goes, or is that random? Arch gets to choose where the other two go, right? What happens if the player receiving one of these things is NKed?

[faust]

Final decision is Arch's by I'm going to say this:

I have >20 in dice stored.

[liopoil]

Final decision is Arch's by I'm going to say this:

I have >20 in dice stored.

Well now scum will probably kill you. What happens if you are given something and you die? Where does it go the next night?

[faust]

Final decision is Arch's by I'm going to say this:

I have >20 in dice stored.

Well now scum will probably kill you. What happens if you are given something and you die? Where does it go the next night?

No idea. And well, scum was probably going to kill me anyway, so I thought I might as well share this. Maybe someone who gets the Grim Reaper can protect me?

[liopoil]

How does the grim reaper travel, if that's safe to reveal?

[Beyond Awesome]

So, coordination is a thing.

WW, target one of Archetype/liopoil tonight.
Hydrad, target WW tonight. Block a random number.
BA, target WW tonight.
As for lio, probably best to target PPS. He needs dice.
I don't think there's a really good target for me. Not sure what I'll do, suggestions?

So yeah, that plan should catch WW/BA in a lie, if we assume one of them is the dice destroyer.

I am asking again, WW, BA, do you agree to this? If you do, I will gladly lynch ashersky.

I agree to your plan, but only if Hydrad and I target Ash or PPS tonight instead of WW.

[faust]

How does the grim reaper travel, if that's safe to reveal?

I don't know. I just know he visited me. I thought that he would be controlled in a way similar to the Mentalist, but that's apparently wrong.

[faust]

So, coordination is a thing.

WW, target one of Archetype/liopoil tonight.
Hydrad, target WW tonight. Block a random number.
BA, target WW tonight.
As for lio, probably best to target PPS. He needs dice.
I don't think there's a really good target for me. Not sure what I'll do, suggestions?

So yeah, that plan should catch WW/BA in a lie, if we assume one of them is the dice destroyer.

I am asking again, WW, BA, do you agree to this? If you do, I will gladly lynch ashersky.

I agree to your plan, but only if Hydrad and I target Ash or PPS tonight instead of WW.

Why?

[liopoil]

...because ash and pps might actually be scum, and probably are.

Where is archetype? He feels really absent today for some reason. Or maybe the rest of us are just super active.

[faust]

...because ash and pps might actually be scum, and probably are.

Where is archetype? He feels really absent today for some reason. Or maybe the rest of us are just super active.

Why is it better to target scum with these powers?

[faust]

The point in targeting WW is we get better ways of confirming both BA's and Hydrad's role.

[Beyond Awesome]

The point in targeting WW is we get better ways of confirming both BA's and Hydrad's role.

Well, Hydrad can permanently remove a bad number. So, stopping scum from rolling a bad number is good. By targeting scum, I confirm Hydrad's power, and I also see if anything else wonky is going on with the person's dice.

[Beyond Awesome]

...because ash and pps might actually be scum, and probably are.

Where is archetype? He feels really absent today for some reason. Or maybe the rest of us are just super active.

He is VLA

[faust]

The point in targeting WW is we get better ways of confirming both BA's and Hydrad's role.

Well, Hydrad can permanently remove a bad number. So, stopping scum from rolling a bad number is good. By targeting scum, I confirm Hydrad's power, and I also see if anything else wonky is going on with the person's dice.
[/quote

Well, fair enough. It's not a big deal I think. Just make sure you and WW don't target the same player.

[Hydrad]

I feel like the grim reaper is just a NPC that randomly visits people.

[Archetype]

Back. Rereading now.

[ashersky]

vote: liopoil

[ashersky]

Dude is just...he's scum guys.

Look at his posts.  No new content, ideas, scumhunting, or anything.  They're all just "hey, that's a good idea, just don't target X, target Y instead."

He's been scummy all game.

My lynch order: liopoil > PPS > Faust.

If we aren't lynching lio today, we should definitely lynch lio as a second choice.  If neither of those are working out, then lio is an acceptable third choice.

[pingpongsam]

I agree, lio is ashersky's scum partner.

[ashersky]

I agree, lio is ashersky's scum partner.

So let's lynch him.

[liopoil]

Look at his posts.  No new content

Yeah, and you have TONS of content besides "lynch lio!"

I've been pushing pps all game, you've been pushing me all game. At least I have content besides that too. And I am planning to reread for realz given chairs, ww, and BA being town.

I agree, lio is ashersky's scum partner.

No, that's you. Except it might be arch, not ash...

At this point I am mostly deciding between ash and arch as pps' partner. I don't see an ash-arch scumteam as much because of ash's interactions with mail-mi day 1 and also because pps is scum.

As such, Vote: pingpongsam

I agree, lio is ashersky's scum partner.

So let's lynch him.

I'm pretty sure any two of us are willing to lynch the other one today. I lean towards preferring pps right now.

[pingpongsam]

I am unwilling to lynch lio today. But we can kill me and pretty much go lylo tomorrow.

[ashersky]

I am unwilling to lynch lio today.

Why?

[liopoil]

I am unwilling to lynch lio today. But we can kill me and pretty much go lylo tomorrow.

Let's suppose you are town for a second. Why are you unwilling to lynch me and why are you willing to be lynched? Or was the second part sarcastic....

pps's play has been like this the whole game, it's scummy.

[ashersky]

pps's play has been like this the whole game, it's scummy.

The scummier the PPS, the more likely he's town, unfortunately.

That said, he's still in my scum reads.  I put him 3rd, though.

[liopoil]

pps's play has been like this the whole game, it's scummy.

The scummier the PPS, the more likely he's town, unfortunately.

That said, he's still in my scum reads.  I put him 3rd, though.

You put him 2nd just a couple minutes ago!

What do you two think of archetype? Most people seem to think the scum is in us three, which is certainly possible because you two are scummy, but I'm worried that if it isn't we just lose. I am reasonably confident that scum is in us 3 + arch though.

[ashersky]

pps's play has been like this the whole game, it's scummy.

The scummier the PPS, the more likely he's town, unfortunately.

That said, he's still in my scum reads.  I put him 3rd, though.

You put him 2nd just a couple minutes ago!

What do you two think of archetype? Most people seem to think the scum is in us three, which is certainly possible because you two are scummy, but I'm worried that if it isn't we just lose. I am reasonably confident that scum is in us 3 + arch though.

I said yesterday Arch was my only town read in the game.  It's possible I'm wrong, and unfairly basing it on Arch (vice mail-mi, who was scummy).  So it's possible he's scum based on mail-mi's plays (no dice on D1, wasted dice on D2).

Faust is now above PPS in the scum ratings.

[liopoil]

what about arch do you find townie? I see nothing besides his 9 at the end of yesterday.

[Archetype]

Alright, caught up.

First thing's first: WW and BA are very likely Town. The only scenario that sounds remotely possible is that the Town reward for "Council" is that two scum are placed in a QT with two town, but the two scum are kept hidden. Then the following day, instead of keeping quiet about being in the group, they could have thought they were caught as the two secret players and claimed Masons instead. Sort of as a "all-in" strategy. Witherweaver could have thought of this mid-day, as illustrated with his denial here:

BA WW and arche. were any of you in a council room not with me? If a few more people confirm they were not in a council room we will know that there was only one council room created.

Not I.

and his acceptance here:

I am Alice.  I know who Bob is, but I'll let him claim.

We were made Masons.  We were confirmed town to each other in our private QTs.  We were also informed that Ichimaru and Hydrad would join the neighborhood, but they did not have their alignment confirmed.

His followup...

Actually I'm just going to out it to save time.

BeyondAwesome is Bob.  He's town.  I choose to Sabotage him because he was confirmed town to me.  I didn't have any idea he'd have a low die stored.

...makes sense. Since BA had no idea what Masons were until BA claimed it, WW went ahead and did it for him instead of waiting for him to do it. And then BA played a stored die, WW claimed to have targeted him, when actually the "Saboteur" power is the dice destructor. Hm, well, but actually Hydrad claimed that in the QT that Bob and Alice mentioned that they were Masons. Hm. Well, that puts a damper on that theory. But really, that's all it is - a theory. No way that we'll lynch one of BA/WW when I'm pretty sure that both scum are within {PPS, liopoil, ashersky}.

I think I'm going to throw faust into that group too. His tunnel vision on WW/BA being a scumteam comes off as scum seeing the Masons as big threats, and trying to get one lynched and then the other NK'd. Of course faust would likely be the lynch the following day, but him having been visited by the Grim Reaper, and having the potential of a 1-shot Lynchproof, would save him from the lynch. Also, my receiving of the Mentalist lessens my town read on faust for him receiving it.

For the 3 people who claim to have had dice stolen from them (ashersky, faust, and Hydrad), we have two scenarios:

1) The Ogre's power is to steal dice from someone. Only problem with this theory is that Jimmmmm never posted a "[Player Name] has been attacked by the Ogre!" which makes it unlikely that someone was targeted. So that leaves...

2) One of them is lying scum. (Maybe two?)  faust said that he tried to steal from PPS and he failed. That leaves only one dice destructor. Why would scum claim to be stolen from?

ashersky - He was in the lynch group of {PPS, liopoil, ashersky} and it could be a grab for Town cred to get himself out of the group.

faust - If I remember correctly, faust mentioned being stolen from last. I have no idea why he'd put the spotlight on himself like that, unless he already felt like it was on him and wanted to be in good light.

Hydrad - This guy is sitting pretty if he's scum. Why would he claim and draw unnecessary attention to himself? Doesn't make sense. His claim only strengthens my town read on him.

Alright. So, one of {faust, ashersky} is likely scum and Hydrad got his dice stolen/destroyed. Looking at claims, who's the most likely liar?

ashersky - Could be easily lying. VT claim is very safe and is actually what I was expecting ashersky to claim as scum. With one extra role and one empty "slot" within the VT, him having some sort of dice stealing/destructing role makes the most sense.

faust - He has the perfect cover up with his Universal Backup -> Town Thief inheritance thing, but the extra stealing has been confirmed from the previous night (IIRC). So, it's very unlikely that Faust is the dice destructor, but is almost certainly a dice stealer.

Hydrad - With BA's claim, it's unlikely that Hydrad is lying about his power unless both him and BA are scum. Which isn't possible.

BA - Could be a dice destructor, but isn't super likely. Hydrad's claim also helps confirm that his power is actually what it is.

liopoil - faust, Ichimaru, and I have all confirmed his power to be what it is. After faust, he's the least likely to be the dice destructor.

WW - Second most likely to be a dice destructor. Saboteur makes perfect sense as a Dice Destructor (and I think WW was the first to suggest the possibility of such a thing) and no one has confirmed WW's power yet, but I believe him not only because he's most likely Town. Mostly, his claim just seems too complicated to be fake.

pingpongsam - He refuses to use his power, which makes sense if it is what it is. It's almost impossible to confirm even if he did use it, and after Time War mafia it's defintally a power he would fake claim.

From a purely claim standpoint, most likely to the dice dude to least:

ashersky
Witherweaver (MASON)
pingpongsam
Beyond Awesome (MASON)
Hydrad
liopoil
faust


Now it's time for pairings. I'm only voting amongst {faust, liopoil, PPS, ashersky}, so I'll only be looking at them.

faust/liopoil: The N1 dice giving makes sense here. I'm fairly certain that at least one of ashersky/PPS are scum, so I don't think that this is a likely pairing.
faust/PPS: This pairing is possible with PPS fakeclaiming being stolen from. I like what someone (BA?) said about them likely being the same alignment.
faust/ashersky: Much more likely than PPS/faust IMO. Ashersky puts some pressure on faust with his 'faustes aurelias whatever' thing. The fact that faust didn't react too much to it makes it more likely that it was staged.
liopoil/PPS: This is very likely as well. liopoil says that he's had a scumread on PPS for awhile and sees this now as an opportunity to try and bus him for towncred. liopoil has never given dice to PPS yet. Though maybe he can only give it Town players?
liopoil/ashersky: This could be a thing. ashersky has pushed for liopoil relatively hard since the beginning and brings him up whenever he starts to slip out of focus. liopoil never giving dice to ashersky is weird here too.
PPS/ashersky: Most likely pairing as they are my two highest scumreads. But I don't think ash would be this...lax? If both him and his partner were both lynch candidates like this. Though maybe after the D1 Voltaire, he's just sort of given up. PPS's die rolling thing is super, super scummy though.


So, my lynch preference is...

PPS -> ashersky -> liopoil -> faust

[ashersky]

For the bazillionth time, I DID NOT HAVE DICE "STOLEN."

Go back and read my posts, people.

[Archetype]

For the bazillionth time, I DID NOT HAVE DICE "STOLEN."

Go back and read my posts, people.

I never claimed my dice were "stolen."  I claimed that someone targeted me last night and now I have no dice.

If you're a VT, how would you know if someone targeted you last night?  Unless you having 0 dice is confirmation that someone targeted you... If that's the case, then why wouldn't that point to you having dice stolen from you.

This seems like ash putting himself into the 1-1-1 situation, and now quietly trying to step out of it.

[ashersky]

For the bazillionth time, I DID NOT HAVE DICE "STOLEN."

Go back and read my posts, people.

I never claimed my dice were "stolen."  I claimed that someone targeted me last night and now I have no dice.

If you're a VT, how would you know if someone targeted you last night?  Unless you having 0 dice is confirmation that someone targeted you... If that's the case, then why wouldn't that point to you having dice stolen from you.

This seems like ash putting himself into the 1-1-1 situation, and now quietly trying to step out of it.

I know someone targeted me because stuff happened in my QT.

At the beginning of the night I had X number of dice.  At the end of the night, as a result of the stuff, I had X-X = 0 number of dice.  The stuff to which I refer was NOT stealing.

[Archetype]

For the bazillionth time, I DID NOT HAVE DICE "STOLEN."

Go back and read my posts, people.

I never claimed my dice were "stolen."  I claimed that someone targeted me last night and now I have no dice.

If you're a VT, how would you know if someone targeted you last night?  Unless you having 0 dice is confirmation that someone targeted you... If that's the case, then why wouldn't that point to you having dice stolen from you.

This seems like ash putting himself into the 1-1-1 situation, and now quietly trying to step out of it.

I know someone targeted me because stuff happened in my QT.

At the beginning of the night I had X number of dice.  At the end of the night, as a result of the stuff, I had X-X = 0 number of dice.  The stuff to which I refer was NOT stealing.

What kind of stuff are you referring to here? If you think it's scum-induced, you should definitely claim it. If you think it's Town-induced, then who could it have been? Everyone has claimed. I guess maybe it could be a 4th NPC. If so, then why hasn't it been mentioned before?

[ashersky]

What kind of stuff are you referring to here? If you think it's scum-induced, you should definitely claim it. If you think it's Town-induced, then who could it have been? Everyone has claimed. I guess maybe it could be a 4th NPC. If so, then why hasn't it been mentioned before?

It hasn't been mentioned up to now by anyone, but I find it extremely hard to believe it just started up on N3.

It has to do with messing with the lynch.

[Hydrad]

What kind of stuff are you referring to here? If you think it's scum-induced, you should definitely claim it. If you think it's Town-induced, then who could it have been? Everyone has claimed. I guess maybe it could be a 4th NPC. If so, then why hasn't it been mentioned before?

It hasn't been mentioned up to now by anyone, but I find it extremely hard to believe it just started up on N3.

It has to do with messing with the lynch.

Does it start with love?

[Beyond Awesome]

Honestly Ash, you are not making any sense here.

[Beyond Awesome]

Dude is just...he's scum guys.

Look at his posts.  No new content, ideas, scumhunting, or anything.  They're all just "hey, that's a good idea, just don't target X, target Y instead."

He's been scummy all game.

My lynch order: liopoil > PPS > Faust.

If we aren't lynching lio today, we should definitely lynch lio as a second choice.  If neither of those are working out, then lio is an acceptable third choice.

Actually, what Ash says here is true. I started doing my complete reread from D1 on up. I was gone for most of today, so I have not had much time to further my reading. But, I noticed that lio plays super conservative. He pretty much posts so that he doesn't seem like a lurker, but that's it. He doesn't seem to do anything to try and get noticed. He doesn't cast suspicion on other players. He doesn't say anything that can really get a reaction from other players. Of all the players, I am actually finding his play style the most scummy because everyone else stands out more. Everyone is more engaged in this game. You can argue lio is engaged, but most of his engagement is just posting to post stuff.

[Beyond Awesome]

What kind of stuff are you referring to here? If you think it's scum-induced, you should definitely claim it. If you think it's Town-induced, then who could it have been? Everyone has claimed. I guess maybe it could be a 4th NPC. If so, then why hasn't it been mentioned before?

It hasn't been mentioned up to now by anyone, but I find it extremely hard to believe it just started up on N3.

It has to do with messing with the lynch.

I think I know what you are talking about. And, I think it did start on N3. Anyway, as Hydard said, can you answer if love was mentioned.

If that is the case, then why did you mention you losing dice? You sure made it sound as if you were stolen from.

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, I don't want to say much yet, but Ichi was visited by an NPC that was not mentioned prior to N3. I believe Ash was visited by the same NPC. I also think it likely PPS was as well since has no dice left. I think PPS was lying about rolling them all and used it on something else instead.

[Beyond Awesome]

Hydrad, WW, and I all know about this NPC because Ichi told us in the Council Room.

[Beyond Awesome]

Never mind what I said about the NPC visiting PPS last night. I reread the Council Room discussion and the NPC visited Ichi the prior night, so that means it must have moved onto Ash and that PPS really did roll six dice in one day. I still find that scummy on PPS part though.

[ashersky]

Yes, what Hydrad mentions relates to what I'm talking about.

I never said stolen.  I said I now have no dice.  That's different.

It's possible that if this happened to others, vote stuff is all screwy now.

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, we know what you did Ash. I think that makes you seem only scummier than you already seemed before.

[ashersky]

Well, we know what you did Ash. I think that makes you seem only scummier than you already seemed before.

I will state this: I received NO benefits from the visit.

[faust]

It it possible that you just reveal what you are talking about? We're not really in a position for mystery talk anymore.

[faust]

Actually, Hydrad seems to know he should make this call. He's the only one I completely trust to be town in this.

[faust]

I think I'm going to throw faust into that group too. His tunnel vision on WW/BA being a scumteam comes off as scum seeing the Masons as big threats, and trying to get one lynched and then the other NK'd. Of course faust would likely be the lynch the following day, but him having been visited by the Grim Reaper, and having the potential of a 1-shot Lynchproof, would save him from the lynch. Also, my receiving of the Mentalist lessens my town read on faust for him receiving it.

Just for your information, 1-shot Lynchproof costs 25, and the Grim Reaper visited me N1. There's no way I could have had that many dice at that point. Also, you can't choose to make yourself lynchproof, only others. I'm sure WW can confirm all this.

For the 3 people who claim to have had dice stolen from them (ashersky, faust, and Hydrad), we have two scenarios:

I did not have dice stolen from me, I stole them (or, I tried to).

Now it's time for pairings. I'm only voting amongst {faust, liopoil, PPS, ashersky}, so I'll only be looking at them.

faust/liopoil: The N1 dice giving makes sense here. I'm fairly certain that at least one of ashersky/PPS are scum, so I don't think that this is a likely pairing.
faust/PPS: This pairing is possible with PPS fakeclaiming being stolen from. I like what someone (BA?) said about them likely being the same alignment.

But PPS did not claim being stolen from.

[Hydrad]

Ok so ichi only told us about 4 powers this npc's has and None of them March what Asher is saying. So either he's lying or ichi left something out. Personally I believe Asher for this as it seems to big a risk to make something up here.

Here are my guesses on what it is. Asher makes it sound like he gains no benefit. The only thing I can think this means is if it affects all of us.

First two guesses are we either all take one extra/less vote to be lynched. Then the third option is we either take 1 less or more and it's randomly decided.

So unfortunately I can't be of much help

[faust]

So, I'll take a look at possible pairings. I'm taking Hydrad out of the pool, he's pretty much certainly town.

Some thoughts before I go into detailed analysis:

- if ashersky is scum, I'm pretty certain that his partner was on the Voltaire wagon. His hammer makes only sense as a "have both scum on a scum wagon, live off the towncred ever after" move. So that excludes an ash/lio pairing.
- there has to be a dice destroyer (I don't believe it would be a factional power without us knowing. So there's no pairing possible that includes two confirmed roles. This excludes the lio/Archetype pairing.

Interesting that two pairings with lio are already out...

The possible pairings then are:

liopoil/PPS: They were bussing each other hardcore if they are partners. But that's something I have previously seen from PPS, so I don't think it's impossible. Just really, really dangerous.

ashersky/PPS: This is... I don't even know how to analyze this scenario. If PPS and ash are scum partners pretty much anything can happen. It fits the chairs hammer, which was PPS putting him to L-1 and ash hammering.

ashersky/Archetype: Pretty bold move, with the whole "Arch is my only town read" thing by ashersky. Also, wasn't ash going hardcore after mail-mi after he announced that he didn't want to roll? I think this is unlikely.

Archetype/PPS: PPS would be dice destroyer here, which means he either used his power on himself or didn't use it at all... both rather weird moves.

So I think PPS/ash is the most likely scenario, if it's not BA/WW. I think PPS is the best lynch candidate, if he flips town I'm very positive that lio is town as well.

[faust]

If I counted correctly, vote: PPS should be L-2.

[Witherweaver]

For the bazillionth time, I DID NOT HAVE DICE "STOLEN."

Go back and read my posts, people.

I never claimed my dice were "stolen."  I claimed that someone targeted me last night and now I have no dice.

If you're a VT, how would you know if someone targeted you last night?  Unless you having 0 dice is confirmation that someone targeted you... If that's the case, then why wouldn't that point to you having dice stolen from you.

This seems like ash putting himself into the 1-1-1 situation, and now quietly trying to step out of it.

I know someone targeted me because stuff happened in my QT.

At the beginning of the night I had X number of dice.  At the end of the night, as a result of the stuff, I had X-X = 0 number of dice.  The stuff to which I refer was NOT stealing.

I do not see how this relates to "knowing" that someone targeted you.  Explain.

[pingpongsam]

faust, when I flip town and then you are sure lio is town then who do you think must be scum then?

[Beyond Awesome]

Let's not lynch PPS just yet. I am still doing my reread.

[Beyond Awesome]

It it possible that you just reveal what you are talking about? We're not really in a position for mystery talk anymore.

I guess at this point, we should spill the beans. On N2, an NPC visited Ichi called the Love Doctor. Ichi brought up four options. The first option is to become permanently hated and gain lots of dice, but you take one less vote to lynch for the rest of the game. The second option is to become hated for a day and gain some dice, and it takes one less vote to lynch the next day.

Obviously, the first two choices are towny.

The third option is to become permanently loved by losing lots of dice. If you choose this option, it takes one more vote to lynch you for the rest of the game. I have a feeling this is the choice Ash chose. The fourth option is to become hated for a day and just lose a few dice. In that case, the following day, it takes one more vote to lynch you.

Ichi never mentioned a fifth option in the Council Room. He specifically said there were four choices. So, either Ichi left a choice off because he felt it was not worth mentioning or Ash is lying and he chose one of the options to make it so he takes one more to lynch him which is pretty scummy. If you ask me, trading dice to prevent oneself from getting lynched is pretty selfish.

[Beyond Awesome]

Let's not lynch PPS just yet. I am still doing my reread.

Unvote for now. I want to finish my reread first.

[faust]

faust, when I flip town and then you are sure lio is town then who do you think must be scum then?

Well, either ash/Archetype (which I find rather unlikely) or WW/BA. I would do a massive ash/Arch reread and hopefully find out.

[Beyond Awesome]

Hmm....What if there were other options to the Love Doctor? What if Ash did something that made it so it took one less vote to lynch other players? I could see him doing that. Frame someone and then try to get people to put them at L-1 which would actually be derphammer.

Well, Ichi never mentioned any such thing, but maybe he thought no one would go for that type of option.

[Beyond Awesome]

Either way, I feel like whatever Ash did, it was pretty scummy.

[faust]

Hmm....What if there were other options to the Love Doctor? What if Ash did something that made it so it took one less vote to lynch other players? I could see him doing that. Frame someone and then try to get people to put them at L-1 which would actually be derphammer.

Well, Ichi never mentioned any such thing, but maybe he thought no one would go for that type of option.

I don't think there would be other options. For reference, the Grim Reaper also offers exactly four options.

[Beyond Awesome]

Hmm....What if there were other options to the Love Doctor? What if Ash did something that made it so it took one less vote to lynch other players? I could see him doing that. Frame someone and then try to get people to put them at L-1 which would actually be derphammer.

Well, Ichi never mentioned any such thing, but maybe he thought no one would go for that type of option.

I don't think there would be other options. For reference, the Grim Reaper also offers exactly four options.

Okay, in that case, Ash is lying and he chose one of the options to make it so it takes one more vote to lynch him.

[faust]

I am certainly very interested in ashersky's explanation right now. These accusations weigh pretty heavy indeed.

[faust]

Not sure what scum!ashersky gains from being loved though.

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, he also made it sound as if he was stolen from earlier in the day. Obviously, he changed his stance on this later. But, I feel like he was trying to frame you and Hydrad and then he admits he was visited by an NPC that messes with the lync. He was probably banking on no one knowing what that NPC was because it had not been mentioned up to this point.

[Beyond Awesome]

Seriously, I have no idea what Ash is doing at this point. His play style is so weird and confusing and also super scummy.

[faust]

Well, he also made it sound as if he was stolen from earlier in the day. Obviously, he changed his stance on this later. But, I feel like he was trying to frame you and Hydrad and then he admits he was visited by an NPC that messes with the lync. He was probably banking on no one knowing what that NPC was because it had not been mentioned up to this point.

But he could frame us without the NPC, by just lying. So using the NPC should have given him some benefit. I don't see that benefit.

[Witherweaver]

Am I missing something?  Being loved at lylo would be pretty good for scum, right?

[Witherweaver]

Hmm....What if there were other options to the Love Doctor? What if Ash did something that made it so it took one less vote to lynch other players? I could see him doing that. Frame someone and then try to get people to put them at L-1 which would actually be derphammer.

Well, Ichi never mentioned any such thing, but maybe he thought no one would go for that type of option.

Ichi listed four options.  I do not think there were more options available.

[Beyond Awesome]

Am I missing something?  Being loved at lylo would be pretty good for scum, right?

Yes, it would.

So, here is my theory. Ash says he lost dice. Losing dice and being stolen from are not the same. Schematics. So, Ash's original plan was to frame Faust, it seems.

Then, I think Ash was banking on no one knowing what the Love Doctor was. I think then when he was supposedly lynched, he would lie and say he was visited by an NPC (or someone targeted him) that stole all his dice and made him lynch proof for the day. So, then, no one would cast the extra vote needed to lynch him, and he would live another day. At least, I think that was his plan. I think Ash pretty much figured he was the top target to be lynched today, and this was a last minute act of desperation.

[Beyond Awesome]

Hmm....What if there were other options to the Love Doctor? What if Ash did something that made it so it took one less vote to lynch other players? I could see him doing that. Frame someone and then try to get people to put them at L-1 which would actually be derphammer.

Well, Ichi never mentioned any such thing, but maybe he thought no one would go for that type of option.

Ichi listed four options.  I do not think there were more options available.

Therefore Ash is lying and he chose to be loved.

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, there are only two players who can be the dice destroyer. It has to be PPS or Ash. Both players have roles that can't be verified. Lio and Arch have been verified, so they are not the dice destroyer.

So, unless I am missing some pertinent detail, I believe lynching Ash today is correct.

[Witherweaver]

Faust's role is not verified as well.  Not saying we should pursue that now, but we should be careful to not forget that.

[Beyond Awesome]

For the bazillionth time, I DID NOT HAVE DICE "STOLEN."

Go back and read my posts, people.

I never claimed my dice were "stolen."  I claimed that someone targeted me last night and now I have no dice.

If you're a VT, how would you know if someone targeted you last night?  Unless you having 0 dice is confirmation that someone targeted you... If that's the case, then why wouldn't that point to you having dice stolen from you.

This seems like ash putting himself into the 1-1-1 situation, and now quietly trying to step out of it.

I know someone targeted me because stuff happened in my QT.

At the beginning of the night I had X number of dice.  At the end of the night, as a result of the stuff, I had X-X = 0 number of dice.  The stuff to which I refer was NOT stealing.

What kind of stuff are you referring to here? If you think it's scum-induced, you should definitely claim it. If you think it's Town-induced, then who could it have been? Everyone has claimed. I guess maybe it could be a 4th NPC. If so, then why hasn't it been mentioned before?

It hasn't been mentioned up to now by anyone, but I find it extremely hard to believe it just started up on N3.

It has to do with messing with the lynch.

Does it start with love?

Yes, what Hydrad mentions relates to what I'm talking about.

I never said stolen.  I said I now have no dice.  That's different.

It's possible that if this happened to others, vote stuff is all screwy now.

So, Ash tries to make it sound as if another player targeted him. It was actually an NPC. He was banking on no one knowing what the Love Doctor was until Hydrad brings it up.

Ash is lying through his teeth. He also claims he received no benefit which is also a lie.

Vote: Ash

[faust]

Am I missing something?  Being loved at lylo would be pretty good for scum, right?

Yes, it would.

So, here is my theory. Ash says he lost dice. Losing dice and being stolen from are not the same. Schematics. So, Ash's original plan was to frame Faust, it seems.

Then, I think Ash was banking on no one knowing what the Love Doctor was. I think then when he was supposedly lynched, he would lie and say he was visited by an NPC (or someone targeted him) that stole all his dice and made him lynch proof for the day. So, then, no one would cast the extra vote needed to lynch him, and he would live another day. At least, I think that was his plan. I think Ash pretty much figured he was the top target to be lynched today, and this was a last minute act of desperation.

You're making ash sound much stupider than he actually his.

[Beyond Awesome]

Am I missing something?  Being loved at lylo would be pretty good for scum, right?

Yes, it would.

So, here is my theory. Ash says he lost dice. Losing dice and being stolen from are not the same. Schematics. So, Ash's original plan was to frame Faust, it seems.

Then, I think Ash was banking on no one knowing what the Love Doctor was. I think then when he was supposedly lynched, he would lie and say he was visited by an NPC (or someone targeted him) that stole all his dice and made him lynch proof for the day. So, then, no one would cast the extra vote needed to lynch him, and he would live another day. At least, I think that was his plan. I think Ash pretty much figured he was the top target to be lynched today, and this was a last minute act of desperation.

You're making ash sound much stupider than he actually his.

Okay, then what was his plan exactly? What is your theory?

[faust]

Is there anyone around that the Love Doctor visited N1?

[faust]

Am I missing something?  Being loved at lylo would be pretty good for scum, right?

Yes, it would.

So, here is my theory. Ash says he lost dice. Losing dice and being stolen from are not the same. Schematics. So, Ash's original plan was to frame Faust, it seems.

Then, I think Ash was banking on no one knowing what the Love Doctor was. I think then when he was supposedly lynched, he would lie and say he was visited by an NPC (or someone targeted him) that stole all his dice and made him lynch proof for the day. So, then, no one would cast the extra vote needed to lynch him, and he would live another day. At least, I think that was his plan. I think Ash pretty much figured he was the top target to be lynched today, and this was a last minute act of desperation.

You're making ash sound much stupider than he actually his.

Okay, then what was his plan exactly? What is your theory?

Not sure. But I'm ready and willing to wait for him and see if he has a convincing story to tell.

[ashersky]

Folks are awful obtuse around here.

I was trying to find out who TARGETED me with the Love Doctor in the same way that Someone targeted me with The Mentalist, and like I targeted Arch with The Mentalist.

I highly doubt these NPCs aren't controlled by players.  It's almost impossible to balance basically randomly assigned powers mid game, so they are likely incarnations of night powers.

I'd assume some "my dice were stolen" claimants actually paid fees at night instead.  It's possible there's no dice destroyer at all.

As for my choice last night, trading Hated to gain dice may "seem" towny, but is pretty risky given the dice are wasted if you die.  A Hated claim isn't saving anyone.

And Loved?  That does zilch before Lylo, and is basically just a big Lynch Me sign on your back.

I went from 4 dice to zero.  I am neither hated nor loved.

[Witherweaver]

So you claimed to be targeted, said you knew you were targeted, but had no convincing evidence to show you that you were targeted?

And then blame us for coming to the "wrong" conclusions?

[ashersky]

So you claimed to be targeted, said you knew you were targeted, but had no convincing evidence to show you that you were targeted?

And then blame us for coming to the "wrong" conclusions?

What?

[ashersky]

I have a gigantic post in my QT showing I was targeted.  I just want to know who's in control.

[faust]

Folks are awful obtuse around here.

I was trying to find out who TARGETED me with the Love Doctor in the same way that Someone targeted me with The Mentalist, and like I targeted Arch with The Mentalist.

I highly doubt these NPCs aren't controlled by players.  It's almost impossible to balance basically randomly assigned powers mid game, so they are likely incarnations of night powers.

I'd assume some "my dice were stolen" claimants actually paid fees at night instead.  It's possible there's no dice destroyer at all.

As for my choice last night, trading Hated to gain dice may "seem" towny, but is pretty risky given the dice are wasted if you die.  A Hated claim isn't saving anyone.

And Loved?  That does zilch before Lylo, and is basically just a big Lynch Me sign on your back.

I went from 4 dice to zero.  I am neither hated nor loved.

So let me get this straight:

You think someone is lying about their role, because obviously noone claimed Love Doctor control. And you hoped to get that person to out themselves? Why would they do that?

Or, do you know that the Love Doctor was sent to you because you are able to send him to someone?

Lastly, do you claim to have lost four dice without actually doing anything?

[Witherweaver]

I have a gigantic post in my QT showing I was targeted.  I just want to know who's in control.

How does it show that you were targeted?

[Witherweaver]

I have a post in my QT that shows I was targeted.  It looks like this:

Supply: N
Stored: X

When previously the numbers were N+d and X, where I did nothing that could account for the loss in dice.

[ashersky]

I think multiple people are lying/hiding stuff about thier roles.

I cannot send the Doc on.  I assume the controller still lives (I got control of The Mentalist after XP died).

I lost four dice without gaining anything.

[ashersky]

I have a gigantic post in my QT showing I was targeted.  I just want to know who's in control.

How does it show that you were targeted?

Prove to me NPCs are not controlled.  We know The Mentalist is.  Show me how it makes sense none of the others are.

[Hydrad]

I think multiple people are lying/hiding stuff about thier roles.

I cannot send the Doc on.  I assume the controller still lives (I got control of The Mentalist after XP died).

I lost four dice without gaining anything.

Did you choose anything from the love doctor? Or do you think you lost the dice from something else

[ashersky]

Someone tell me what I get out of all this as scum?  Loved doesn't keep me alive today.  Extra dice do zilch for dead players.

I know why my actions are pro-town.  I want to know how they'd help scum me.

[Hydrad]

I have a gigantic post in my QT showing I was targeted.  I just want to know who's in control.

How does it show that you were targeted?

Prove to me NPCs are not controlled.  We know The Mentalist is.  Show me how it makes sense none of the others are.

The only reason I think they arnt controlled is that no one had claimed them. I don't see why they would fake claim to hide that ability. It's not something we are thinking scum controls so claiming them would probably make that person towny.

That's my reasoning. It just doesn't add up for me

[ashersky]

I think multiple people are lying/hiding stuff about thier roles.

I cannot send the Doc on.  I assume the controller still lives (I got control of The Mentalist after XP died).

I lost four dice without gaining anything.

Did you choose anything from the love doctor? Or do you think you lost the dice from something else

If anyone else targeted me, I might be able to answer.  Did anyone take my dice?

[Hydrad]

I think multiple people are lying/hiding stuff about thier roles.

I cannot send the Doc on.  I assume the controller still lives (I got control of The Mentalist after XP died).

I lost four dice without gaining anything.

Did you choose anything from the love doctor? Or do you think you lost the dice from something else

If anyone else targeted me, I might be able to answer.  Did anyone take my dice?

I didnt

[faust]

I think multiple people are lying/hiding stuff about thier roles.

I cannot send the Doc on.  I assume the controller still lives (I got control of The Mentalist after XP died).

I lost four dice without gaining anything.

Why would people lie (except they're scum)?

Do you know for sure that the dice loss was connected to the Love Doctor?

[ashersky]

I think multiple people are lying/hiding stuff about thier roles.

I cannot send the Doc on.  I assume the controller still lives (I got control of The Mentalist after XP died).

I lost four dice without gaining anything.

Why would people lie (except they're scum)?

Do you know for sure that the dice loss was connected to the Love Doctor?

People would lie as scum, yes.

You are the second person to phrase a question about my dice loss that way.  Worried a night action may have been caught?

[faust]

I think multiple people are lying/hiding stuff about thier roles.

I cannot send the Doc on.  I assume the controller still lives (I got control of The Mentalist after XP died).

I lost four dice without gaining anything.

Did you choose anything from the love doctor? Or do you think you lost the dice from something else

If anyone else targeted me, I might be able to answer.  Did anyone take my dice?

I didn't. And do you really think anyone is going to say they took your dice now?

[ashersky]

I have a gigantic post in my QT showing I was targeted.  I just want to know who's in control.

How does it show that you were targeted?

Prove to me NPCs are not controlled.  We know The Mentalist is.  Show me how it makes sense none of the others are.

The only reason I think they arnt controlled is that no one had claimed them. I don't see why they would fake claim to hide that ability. It's not something we are thinking scum controls so claiming them would probably make that person towny.

That's my reasoning. It just doesn't add up for me

It's an easy thing to cover up, as it's just an omission, not coming up with a lie.  The Mentalist was town-controlled, and it said so.  The others may be scum controlled, given it doesn't say.

[ashersky]

I think multiple people are lying/hiding stuff about thier roles.

I cannot send the Doc on.  I assume the controller still lives (I got control of The Mentalist after XP died).

I lost four dice without gaining anything.

Did you choose anything from the love doctor? Or do you think you lost the dice from something else

If anyone else targeted me, I might be able to answer.  Did anyone take my dice?

I didn't. And do you really think anyone is going to say they took your dice now?

Unfortunately not.

[faust]

... hm. Am I understanding correctly that Loved makes you unlynchable in 3- or 4-player-MyLo?

[ashersky]

Again, if I'm scum, what am I gaining through all this?  Everyone has mostly claimed, so unless I think town lied, there's nothing to role fish for.

[ashersky]

Loved adds a vote to L.  If L is 3, it takes 4.  So with 5/4 remaining, you'd need 4 votes.  With 3 remaining, you'd need to self-vote.

If you are the last remaining scum, you are only unlynchable at 3.  2 scum means unlynchable at 5 and below.

[Beyond Awesome]

Guys, Ash is lying through his teeth.

Hydrad can confirm what I am saying. According to Ichi, he had the choice of four options with the Love Doctor. No one sent the NPC to Ichi and he had no control over who the NPC was sent to. Also, Ichi did not mention the ability to target someone else with the Love Doctor. From the way Ichi was talking in the Council Room, it sounded as if he could only target himself with the Love Doctor.

[Beyond Awesome]

... hm. Am I understanding correctly that Loved makes you unlynchable in 3- or 4-player-MyLo?

That is correct Faust.

[ashersky]

If I'm loved scum, why did I bring ANY of this up?

I will say again, absolutely possible someone has lied about a loss of dice and in fact spent it on stuff.

What have the "stolen" numbers been?  Those could be lies, too, but I'm guessing there could have been fear that a dice counter existed.

[faust]

Uhh... if scum somehow got the Love Doctor at some point, we might not have as much time as we think we do :/

[faust]

If I'm loved scum, why did I bring ANY of this up?

I will say again, absolutely possible someone has lied about a loss of dice and in fact spent it on stuff.

What have the "stolen" numbers been?  Those could be lies, too, but I'm guessing there could have been fear that a dice counter existed.

I think you are town now. And I think we need to lynch among BA/WW, because if one of them is loved scum, today is are last chance to win this.

[faust]

Vote: WW

[ashersky]

Guys, Ash is lying through his teeth.

Hydrad can confirm what I am saying. According to Ichi, he had the choice of four options with the Love Doctor. No one sent the NPC to Ichi and he had no control over who the NPC was sent to. Also, Ichi did not mention the ability to target someone else with the Love Doctor. From the way Ichi was talking in the Council Room, it sounded as if he could only target himself with the Love Doctor.

Dude, hydrad is here.  I've stated no lies.

I don't know who targeted me with the Love Doc.  I assume Hydrad would know either.  But someone did, I'm sure.  Someone is controlling him, and all NPCs.

RNG based super powers are not balanced, and Jimmmmm would know that.  A Love Doc visit to scum the night before Lylo = auto scum win.  It's broken, and jimmmmm doesn't design broken games.

So, trusting the setup isn't flawed, scum has to control the love doctor.  Grim reaper is a pretty scummy sounding thing, too.  I'm guessing a few town "NPCs" and a few scum ones.

[Beyond Awesome]

I don't know man. I think you are lying. I double and triple read what Ichi said in the council room and he explicitly states he was given four options, and that those four option affect him. Nowhere does he mention the ability to affect someone else with the Love Doc.

[faust]

I don't know man. I think you are lying. I double and triple read what Ichi said in the council room and he explicitly states he was given four options, and that those four option affect him. Nowhere does he mention the ability to affect someone else with the Love Doc.

ash never said something like this.

[Beyond Awesome]

I don't know man. I think you are lying. I double and triple read what Ichi said in the council room and he explicitly states he was given four options, and that those four option affect him. Nowhere does he mention the ability to affect someone else with the Love Doc.

ash never said something like this.

Which is why I think he is lying.

[Beyond Awesome]

Dear god, I think Faust is Ash's partner.

[Beyond Awesome]

Everyone, we need to lynch Ash today. He is scum. There is no question about it. Please everyone lynch Ash.

[ashersky]

I don't know man. I think you are lying. I double and triple read what Ichi said in the council room and he explicitly states he was given four options, and that those four option affect him. Nowhere does he mention the ability to affect someone else with the Love Doc.

I can list the four options, with prices.  I mean, do you think I'm lying about the doctor?

I'm asking you again, for what purpose would I make these lies, today?

[ashersky]

Everyone, we need to lynch Ash today. He is scum. There is no question about it. Please everyone lynch Ash.

Really? I'm asking questions.  You have no answer.

What did I gain?  What does my partner gain?

You are reacting very scummily to all this.

[Beyond Awesome]

I don't know man. I think you are lying. I double and triple read what Ichi said in the council room and he explicitly states he was given four options, and that those four option affect him. Nowhere does he mention the ability to affect someone else with the Love Doc.

I can list the four options, with prices.  I mean, do you think I'm lying about the doctor?

I'm asking you again, for what purpose would I make these lies, today?

Okay, list the options.

[ashersky]

If I'm loved scum, why did I bring ANY of this up?

I will say again, absolutely possible someone has lied about a loss of dice and in fact spent it on stuff.

What have the "stolen" numbers been?  Those could be lies, too, but I'm guessing there could have been fear that a dice counter existed.

I think you are town now. And I think we need to lynch among BA/WW, because if one of them is loved scum, today is are last chance to win this.

BA feels like the better choice right now.

[faust]

Puh. Can we lynch WW/BA already?

[Archetype]

Vote:ashersky

[faust]

If I'm loved scum, why did I bring ANY of this up?

I will say again, absolutely possible someone has lied about a loss of dice and in fact spent it on stuff.

What have the "stolen" numbers been?  Those could be lies, too, but I'm guessing there could have been fear that a dice counter existed.

I think you are town now. And I think we need to lynch among BA/WW, because if one of them is loved scum, today is are last chance to win this.

BA feels like the better choice right now.

Does it matter? Either both are scum or both are not.

[Witherweaver]

When do you think I would have been able to buy from the Love Doctor, exactly?

[Beyond Awesome]

Everyone, we need to lynch Ash today. He is scum. There is no question about it. Please everyone lynch Ash.

Really? I'm asking questions.  You have no answer.

What did I gain?  What does my partner gain?

You are reacting very scummily to all this.

You gained the ability to take one more vote to lynch.

[ashersky]

Loved for the rest of the game, loved for a day, hated for a day, hated for the rest of the game.

Discard 5 or 2 dice for the loved, gain 2 or 5 dice for the hated.

If anyone is loved/hated today, they paid for permanent on a previous night.

[faust]

When do you think I would have been able to buy from the Love Doctor, exactly?

N1.

[pingpongsam]

Everyone, we need to lynch Ash today. He is scum. There is no question about it. Please everyone lynch Ash.

Really? I'm asking questions.  You have no answer.

What did I gain?  What does my partner gain?

You are reacting very scummily to all this.

You gained the ability to take one more vote to lynch.

Which is, of course, quite easily tested for truth.

[Archetype]

If you are not loved and are not hated, then what are you? Why does your 4 dice disappearing have to with the Love Doctor. I believe you do have it, but it seems you're using it to step out of your stolen dice claim.

PPE: 6 woah

[ashersky]

Everyone, we need to lynch Ash today. He is scum. There is no question about it. Please everyone lynch Ash.

Really? I'm asking questions.  You have no answer.

What did I gain?  What does my partner gain?

You are reacting very scummily to all this.

You gained the ability to take one more vote to lynch.

But why?  So one more person votes.  Unless you think I was going to get the hammer delayed until deadline.  Then I just die the next day.

You are vastly overestimating the power of loved before Lylo.

[ashersky]

If you are not loved and are not hated, then what are you? Why does your 4 dice disappearing have to with the Love Doctor. I believe you do have it, but it seems you're using it to step out of your stolen dice claim.

PPE: 6 woah

I never claimed my dice were stolen omfg!!!!!

[faust]

Everyone, we need to lynch Ash today. He is scum. There is no question about it. Please everyone lynch Ash.

Really? I'm asking questions.  You have no answer.

What did I gain?  What does my partner gain?

You are reacting very scummily to all this.

You gained the ability to take one more vote to lynch.

Which is, of course, quite easily tested for truth.

Only if ashersky's telling the truth, we might lose this game right here.

[ashersky]

I am not loved or hated, I'm just a normal lynch guy.

[Beyond Awesome]

No, you said you lost dice which implied they were stolen

PPE 2

[faust]

If ash was scum, all he needed to do was make sure we don't lynch him or his partner today, and he'll win. His claim makes no sense in this case.

[Beyond Awesome]

I am not loved or hated, I'm just a normal lynch guy.

Then, how in the world did you loses dice to the Love Doctor Ash? That is 100% impossible to happen.

[faust]

I am not loved or hated, I'm just a normal lynch guy.

Then, how in the world did you loses dice to the Love Doctor Ash? That is 100% impossible to happen.

He did not.

[Witherweaver]

When do you think I would have been able to buy from the Love Doctor, exactly?

N1.

Nope.  You were visited by Grim Reaper N1 right?  I was visited night 3.  Ichi visited by Love Doctor Night 2.  Ash visited by Love Doctor Night 3?

This seems odd.  Did any of these NPCs visit night 0?

No one else claimed to see the Reaper. 

[Beyond Awesome]

I am not loved or hated, I'm just a normal lynch guy.

Then, how in the world did you loses dice to the Love Doctor Ash? That is 100% impossible to happen.

He did not.

That seems to be what he is claiming.

[Archetype]

Everyone, we need to lynch Ash today. He is scum. There is no question about it. Please everyone lynch Ash.

Really? I'm asking questions.  You have no answer.

What did I gain?  What does my partner gain?

You are reacting very scummily to all this.

You gained the ability to take one more vote to lynch.

But why?  So one more person votes.  Unless you think I was going to get the hammer delayed until deadline.  Then I just die the next day.

You are vastly overestimating the power of loved before Lylo.

You could easily be Loved for the rest of game, bus your partner liopoil, gain a bunch of Towncred, and survive in LyLo.

PPE: 8 I need to hurry up

[Archetype]

I am not loved or hated, I'm just a normal lynch guy.

Then, how in the world did you loses dice to the Love Doctor Ash? That is 100% impossible to happen.

This is my exact point.

[faust]

When do you think I would have been able to buy from the Love Doctor, exactly?

N1.

Nope.  You were visited by Grim Reaper N1 right?  I was visited night 3.  Ichi visited by Love Doctor Night 2.  Ash visited by Love Doctor Night 3?

This seems odd.  Did any of these NPCs visit night 0?

No one else claimed to see the Reaper.

So you're saying the Grim Reaper and the Love Doctor are basically the same person?

[faust]

I think WW just scumslipped.

[Beyond Awesome]

When do you think I would have been able to buy from the Love Doctor, exactly?

N1.

Nope.  You were visited by Grim Reaper N1 right?  I was visited night 3.  Ichi visited by Love Doctor Night 2.  Ash visited by Love Doctor Night 3?

This seems odd.  Did any of these NPCs visit night 0?

No one else claimed to see the Reaper.

So you're saying the Grim Reaper and the Love Doctor are basically the same person?

Umm. No. He is not saying that. And, the only person that has scum slipped is Ash. Big time.

[ashersky]

I am not loved or hated, I'm just a normal lynch guy.

Then, how in the world did you loses dice to the Love Doctor Ash? That is 100% impossible to happen.

And you are 100% wrong.

[faust]

Hey, here's an idea:

Vote: No Lynch

Guarantees us one more day of interactions to sort things of and confirm BA/WW without the danger of scum auto-winning because they're loved.

[ashersky]

When do you think I would have been able to buy from the Love Doctor, exactly?

N1.

Nope.  You were visited by Grim Reaper N1 right?  I was visited night 3.  Ichi visited by Love Doctor Night 2.  Ash visited by Love Doctor Night 3?

This seems odd.  Did any of these NPCs visit night 0?

No one else claimed to see the Reaper.

So you're saying the Grim Reaper and the Love Doctor are basically the same person?

Umm. No. He is not saying that. And, the only person that has scum slipped is Ash. Big time.

I'd normally say you are just being crazy over the top scummy to actually be scum.  But if you or a partner is fully loved, you may feel like it is worth it.

Why no one claimed this NPC earlier is beyond me.  Pretty game changing.

[Beyond Awesome]

I am not loved or hated, I'm just a normal lynch guy.

Then, how in the world did you loses dice to the Love Doctor Ash? That is 100% impossible to happen.

And you are 100% wrong.

Okay, so let me understand everything. You say early in the day, you lost dice, making it sound as if you were stolen from. Later on, you mention that you actually did not lose dice but instead lost dice to a player targeting you for an ability that affects the lynch.

Hydrad asks if love has to do with it. You say yes. We later learn that you are visited by the Love Doctor and you know exactly what the Love Doctor does. Therefore, no player targeted you. Therefore, you targeted yourself with the doctor. And, therefore, you are lying scum Ash.

PPE: 2

[Beyond Awesome]

Hey, here's an idea:

Vote: No Lynch

Guarantees us one more day of interactions to sort things of and confirm BA/WW without the danger of scum auto-winning because they're loved.

Here's an idea. You are Ash's partner.

[ashersky]

I think WW just scumslipped.

Grim/Love alternating nights?  Cool concept, could see it.

[Archetype]

I am not loved or hated, I'm just a normal lynch guy.

Then, how in the world did you loses dice to the Love Doctor Ash? That is 100% impossible to happen.

And you are 100% wrong.

Please explain.

PPE: BA quoting the same thing

[Beyond Awesome]

I have caught scum in a lie. This is 100% true. Ash is scum. There is zero question about it.

[faust]

I think WW just scumslipped.

Grim/Love alternating nights?  Cool concept, could see it.

Not alternating, since Ichi got Love Doc N2 and you N3, but maybe scum can decide which one to send out.

[Witherweaver]

When do you think I would have been able to buy from the Love Doctor, exactly?

N1.

Nope.  You were visited by Grim Reaper N1 right?  I was visited night 3.  Ichi visited by Love Doctor Night 2.  Ash visited by Love Doctor Night 3?

This seems odd.  Did any of these NPCs visit night 0?

No one else claimed to see the Reaper.

So you're saying the Grim Reaper and the Love Doctor are basically the same person?

No, of course not. What's wrong with you?

I'm saying they dont seem to visit every night.

[faust]

I have caught scum in a lie. This is 100% true. Ash is scum. There is zero question about it.

In the (minimal likelihood) chance that you are town, I urge you to think things through before posting.

[ashersky]

I am not loved or hated, I'm just a normal lynch guy.

Then, how in the world did you loses dice to the Love Doctor Ash? That is 100% impossible to happen.

And you are 100% wrong.

Okay, so let me understand everything. You say early in the day, you lost dice, making it sound as if you were stolen from. Later on, you mention that you actually did not lose dice but instead lost dice to a player targeting you for an ability that affects the lynch.

Hydrad asks if love has to do with it. You say yes. We later learn that you are visited by the Love Doctor and you know exactly what the Love Doctor does. Therefore, no player targeted you. Therefore, you targeted yourself with the doctor. And, therefore, you are lying scum Ash.

PPE: 2

Do you understand how the Love Doctor works?  I don't think you do.

He's basically selling you something: loved in exchange for dice or dice in exchange for hated.  There's no targeting involved there.

Someone targeted me with the love doctor.  I wanted to know who did that.

Separately, due to being targeted by the love doctor, I now have zero dice, and yet I am neither loved or hated.

None of this conflicts.

[Witherweaver]

I think WW just scumslipped.

Grim/Love alternating nights?  Cool concept, could see it.

Not alternating, since Ichi got Love Doc N2 and you N3, but maybe scum can decide which one to send out.

.... Why would scum be sending out to town players?   

[faust]

Hey, here's an idea:

Vote: No Lynch

Guarantees us one more day of interactions to sort things of and confirm BA/WW without the danger of scum auto-winning because they're loved.

Here's an idea. You are Ash's partner.

If I am, what does this gain me?

[Witherweaver]

Ash, stop.

Love Doctor does not make you lose dice without choosing an option.

[ashersky]

I am not loved or hated, I'm just a normal lynch guy.

Then, how in the world did you loses dice to the Love Doctor Ash? That is 100% impossible to happen.

And you are 100% wrong.

Please explain.

Throne Room a Feast.

[faust]

I think WW just scumslipped.

Grim/Love alternating nights?  Cool concept, could see it.

Not alternating, since Ichi got Love Doc N2 and you N3, but maybe scum can decide which one to send out.

.... Why would scum be sending out to town players?

WIFOM? Or maybe they are required to (maybe can only target the same person once, and there's only so many scum players)

[Witherweaver]

Grim Reaper does not give you an option to send to someone else.  No targeting.

[Beyond Awesome]

I have caught scum in a lie. This is 100% true. Ash is scum. There is zero question about it.

In the (minimal likelihood) chance that you are town, I urge you to think things through before posting.

Trust me. I have thought about. Ash is lying.

[ashersky]

Ash, stop.

Love Doctor does not make you lose dice without choosing an option.

Stop what?

[ashersky]

I have caught scum in a lie. This is 100% true. Ash is scum. There is zero question about it.

In the (minimal likelihood) chance that you are town, I urge you to think things through before posting.

Trust me. I have thought about. Ash is lying.

I'm not lying.  You'll see my QT post game.

[Archetype]

Hey, here's an idea:

Vote: No Lynch

Guarantees us one more day of interactions to sort things of and confirm BA/WW without the danger of scum auto-winning because they're loved.

Here's an idea. You are Ash's partner.

If I am, what does this gain me?

Another chance to rob Town of their dice and leave a Monster alive the following day.

[faust]

I have caught scum in a lie. This is 100% true. Ash is scum. There is zero question about it.

In the (minimal likelihood) chance that you are town, I urge you to think things through before posting.

Trust me. I have thought about. Ash is lying.

Good that you say it, because just looking at your posts, I could have sworn otherwise.

[Witherweaver]

I think WW just scumslipped.

Grim/Love alternating nights?  Cool concept, could see it.

But GR visited me last night.

[Archetype]

FOS: Everyone not voting for ash. Including ash.

[faust]

Hey, here's an idea:

Vote: No Lynch

Guarantees us one more day of interactions to sort things of and confirm BA/WW without the danger of scum auto-winning because they're loved.

Here's an idea. You are Ash's partner.

If I am, what does this gain me?

Another chance to rob Town of their dice and leave a Monster alive the following day.

We are guaranteed to get a reward today. If we no lynch, we might actually be able to use that reward.

[faust]

I think WW just scumslipped.

Grim/Love alternating nights?  Cool concept, could see it.

But GR visited me last night.

You can see that this argument is not going to convince me, yes?

[Beyond Awesome]

I have caught scum in a lie. This is 100% true. Ash is scum. There is zero question about it.

In the (minimal likelihood) chance that you are town, I urge you to think things through before posting.

Trust me. I have thought about. Ash is lying.

Good that you say it, because just looking at your posts, I could have sworn otherwise.

Dude, I completely caught Ash in a lie.

[faust]

FOS: Everyone not voting for ash. Including ash.

You are so not helpful. Focus. Think. You are letting yourself be manipulated.

[Archetype]

FOS: Everyone not voting for ash. Including ash.

You are so not helpful. Focus. Think. You are letting yourself be manipulated.

By an IC??

[faust]

FOS: Everyone not voting for ash. Including ash.

You are so not helpful. Focus. Think. You are letting yourself be manipulated.

By an IC??

Noone's an IC.

[Archetype]

Hey, here's an idea:

Vote: No Lynch

Guarantees us one more day of interactions to sort things of and confirm BA/WW without the danger of scum auto-winning because they're loved.

Here's an idea. You are Ash's partner.

If I am, what does this gain me?

Another chance to rob Town of their dice and leave a Monster alive the following day.

We are guaranteed to get a reward today. If we no lynch, we might actually be able to use that reward.

Town gets today's reward, but tomorrow we'll have one Townie dead and dice stolen by you and dice destroyed by ash.

[faust]

Hey, here's an idea:

Vote: No Lynch

Guarantees us one more day of interactions to sort things of and confirm BA/WW without the danger of scum auto-winning because they're loved.

Here's an idea. You are Ash's partner.

If I am, what does this gain me?

Another chance to rob Town of their dice and leave a Monster alive the following day.

We are guaranteed to get a reward today. If we no lynch, we might actually be able to use that reward.

Town gets today's reward, but tomorrow we'll have one Townie dead and dice stolen by you and dice destroyed by ash.

Yeah... but if you already know who the scum team is, that's not really a problem, is it?

[Witherweaver]

I think WW just scumslipped.

Grim/Love alternating nights?  Cool concept, could see it.

But GR visited me last night.

You can see that this argument is not going to convince me, yes?

You and I were visited by GR on non subsequent nights.  Between them, Ichi was visited by LD.  Ash being visited N0 fits the pattern better.

Someone that died could have been visited.   

[faust]

I mean, what do you think scum rewards will be like? "Every town player dies"?

[Archetype]

Hey, here's an idea:

Vote: No Lynch

Guarantees us one more day of interactions to sort things of and confirm BA/WW without the danger of scum auto-winning because they're loved.

Here's an idea. You are Ash's partner.

If I am, what does this gain me?

Another chance to rob Town of their dice and leave a Monster alive the following day.

We are guaranteed to get a reward today. If we no lynch, we might actually be able to use that reward.

Town gets today's reward, but tomorrow we'll have one Townie dead and dice stolen by you and dice destroyed by ash.

Yeah... but if you already know who the scum team is, that's not really a problem, is it?

Exactly. That's why we have no reason to no lynch.

[faust]

Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch

[Beyond Awesome]

If Faust is scum he deserves the win. If ash is town he deserves the loss and so do I.

No, Faust deserves to be lynched.

I'm fairly certain remaining scum are in lio/PPS/Faust.  Those are final reads.

Whomever targeted me last night...thanks.  I now have zero dice.

I'm a VT.

Okay, here Ash mentions being targeted and having zero dice. At the time this was posted, it implied that he was stolen from.

For the bazillionth time, I DID NOT HAVE DICE "STOLEN."

Go back and read my posts, people.

I never claimed my dice were "stolen."  I claimed that someone targeted me last night and now I have no dice.

If you're a VT, how would you know if someone targeted you last night?  Unless you having 0 dice is confirmation that someone targeted you... If that's the case, then why wouldn't that point to you having dice stolen from you.

This seems like ash putting himself into the 1-1-1 situation, and now quietly trying to step out of it.

I know someone targeted me because stuff happened in my QT.

At the beginning of the night I had X number of dice.  At the end of the night, as a result of the stuff, I had X-X = 0 number of dice.  The stuff to which I refer was NOT stealing.

So, here we find out he wasn't stolen from, but he is still claiming to be targeted by other people.

What kind of stuff are you referring to here? If you think it's scum-induced, you should definitely claim it. If you think it's Town-induced, then who could it have been? Everyone has claimed. I guess maybe it could be a 4th NPC. If so, then why hasn't it been mentioned before?

It hasn't been mentioned up to now by anyone, but I find it extremely hard to believe it just started up on N3.

It has to do with messing with the lynch.

Ash's big mistake here. Hydrad, WW, and I all know about the Love Doctor. Also, we know that you can only target yourself with the Love Doctor.

Yes, what Hydrad mentions relates to what I'm talking about.

I never said stolen.  I said I now have no dice.  That's different.

It's possible that if this happened to others, vote stuff is all screwy now.

Ash confirms it was the Love Doctor.

Well, we know what you did Ash. I think that makes you seem only scummier than you already seemed before.

I will state this: I received NO benefits from the visit.

This makes no sense at all.

Loved adds a vote to L.  If L is 3, it takes 4.  So with 5/4 remaining, you'd need 4 votes.  With 3 remaining, you'd need to self-vote.

If you are the last remaining scum, you are only unlynchable at 3.  2 scum means unlynchable at 5 and below.

Confirming that he knows how the Love Doctor works, while also confirming that he is pretty much a liar as well.

PPE: I have no idea

[Beyond Awesome]

Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch
Vote: No Lynch

No
No
No
No
No
No
No
No
No

[Beyond Awesome]

Faust it is very reasonable that Ash is lying. Also, VT is nonconfirmable. Ash needs to be lynched.

[ashersky]

I never implied I was stolen from.  You added that context yourself.

[ashersky]

Also, revised reads: I've come around on Faust.  Sorry I tunneled you there, but you are having the only reasonable reaction now, which only makes sense as town.  (Scum gladly takes the easy mislynch.)

[Archetype]

I never implied I was stolen from.  You added that context yourself.

What were we supposed to garner from your post?

[pingpongsam]

I never implied I was stolen from.  You added that context yourself.

See, I think you want to use this point to paint yourself cleaner than the guy who interpreted it as you being stolen from when in fact it is admission you used the dice, you know how and why you used the dice and you're not telling us how or why you used the dice.

[ashersky]

I never implied I was stolen from.  You added that context yourself.

See, I think you want to use this point to paint yourself cleaner than the guy who interpreted it as you being stolen from when in fact it is admission you used the dice, you know how and why you used the dice and you're not telling us how or why you used the dice.

I didn't "use" the dice.  I know what happened to the dice, though.  Love Doctor's fault.

[pingpongsam]

The 2 places no vote pressure has been placed are Archetype and Faust (sans ash). Scumteam?

[faust]

The 2 places no vote pressure has been placed are Archetype and Faust (sans ash). Scumteam?

Brilliant. You caught us.

[faust]

I want everyone who's against no lynch to formulate why. I'm going to bed now.

[pingpongsam]

The 2 places no vote pressure has been placed are Archetype and Faust (sans ash). Scumteam?

Brilliant. You caught us.

Precisely the response I would use if I were the scum in question.

[Archetype]

Brilliant. You caught us.

[Beyond Awesome]

I never implied I was stolen from.  You added that context yourself.

See, I think you want to use this point to paint yourself cleaner than the guy who interpreted it as you being stolen from when in fact it is admission you used the dice, you know how and why you used the dice and you're not telling us how or why you used the dice.

I didn't "use" the dice.  I know what happened to the dice, though.  Love Doctor's fault.

That is not how the Love Doctor works. People can not use the Love Doctor to steal/destroy dice from another player. As far as Ichi makes it sound you have to target yourself. But, assuming even another player could be targeted, you would have to gain some benefit, since losing dice makes someone loved. So, right now, you are super lying Ash.

PPE: 3

[pingpongsam]

I want everyone who's against no lynch to formulate why. I'm going to bed now.

Because only scum ever push for no-lynch. Also, when town bites the bullet and does it they lose. Otherwise, it's not a bad idea except the bit where one of Town dies and scum gets to do whatever the hell else they want to us tonight.

[Beyond Awesome]

I want everyone who's against no lynch to formulate why. I'm going to bed now.

Because that would be stupid, and it gives scum a free NK and also another night to steal more dice. Right now players are hurting for dice. Come D5, it is reasonable town will have a super hard time defeating the monster.

[Witherweaver]

I never implied I was stolen from.  You added that context yourself.

See, I think you want to use this point to paint yourself cleaner than the guy who interpreted it as you being stolen from when in fact it is admission you used the dice, you know how and why you used the dice and you're not telling us how or why you used the dice.

I didn't "use" the dice.  I know what happened to the dice, though.  Love Doctor's fault.

? What the hell are you talking about?

[Archetype]

I want everyone who's against no lynch to formulate why. I'm going to bed now.

We have already caught scum. No lynch will give scum a free NK and allow them to steal more dice.

PPE: 2

[pingpongsam]

Vote count? I was thinking ash should be dead already.... have we already proved him loved?

[Beyond Awesome]

I want everyone who's against no lynch to formulate why. I'm going to bed now.

Because that would be stupid, and it gives scum a free NK and also another night to steal more dice. Right now players are hurting for dice. Come D5, it is reasonable town will have a super hard time defeating the monster.

Oh, and another reason for no lynch, it might mean the love doctor visits another scum player, and the scum players might become unlynchable. A No Lynch is not just a bad, bad, bad idea. It is a scummy idea.

PPE: 1

[ashersky]

I never implied I was stolen from.  You added that context yourself.

See, I think you want to use this point to paint yourself cleaner than the guy who interpreted it as you being stolen from when in fact it is admission you used the dice, you know how and why you used the dice and you're not telling us how or why you used the dice.

I didn't "use" the dice.  I know what happened to the dice, though.  Love Doctor's fault.

That is not how the Love Doctor works. People can not use the Love Doctor to steal/destroy dice from another player. As far as Ichi makes it sound you have to target yourself. But, assuming even another player could be targeted, you would have to gain some benefit, since losing dice makes someone loved. So, right now, you are super lying Ash.

PPE: 3

You are making things up, man.  Who said you can use the love doc to steal/destroy dice?

You don't use the love doctor so much as pay him.  Give him 5 dice, receive permanent love in return.  Give him a lynch vote tomorrow, get 2 dice.

I'm super telling the truth and you'll feel like a doofus if you are town.  I'll forgive you after the game, though.

[Beyond Awesome]

I never implied I was stolen from.  You added that context yourself.

See, I think you want to use this point to paint yourself cleaner than the guy who interpreted it as you being stolen from when in fact it is admission you used the dice, you know how and why you used the dice and you're not telling us how or why you used the dice.

I didn't "use" the dice.  I know what happened to the dice, though.  Love Doctor's fault.

That is not how the Love Doctor works. People can not use the Love Doctor to steal/destroy dice from another player. As far as Ichi makes it sound you have to target yourself. But, assuming even another player could be targeted, you would have to gain some benefit, since losing dice makes someone loved. So, right now, you are super lying Ash.

PPE: 3

You are making things up, man.  Who said you can use the love doc to steal/destroy dice?

You don't use the love doctor so much as pay him.  Give him 5 dice, receive permanent love in return.  Give him a lynch vote tomorrow, get 2 dice.

I'm super telling the truth and you'll feel like a doofus if you are town.  I'll forgive you after the game, though.

Okay, so why are you saying someone targeted you with him? Why not take the dice and just look townie?

[Beyond Awesome]

You had the option to gain dice. But, you didn't choose that.

[Beyond Awesome]

Therefore, that means, you are loved. And, you did gain a benefit, even though you claim you did not. And, Ash, you are just lying.

[ashersky]

Therefore, that means, you are loved. And, you did gain a benefit, even though you claim you did not. And, Ash, you are just lying.

I'm not Loved.

[Beyond Awesome]

Therefore, that means, you are loved. And, you did gain a benefit, even though you claim you did not. And, Ash, you are just lying.

I'm not Loved.

Then, why did you give him dice instead of choosing to gain dice? No, you're lying.

[Beyond Awesome]

And, yes, you are loved because that was the option you chose.

[ashersky]

I never implied I was stolen from.  You added that context yourself.

See, I think you want to use this point to paint yourself cleaner than the guy who interpreted it as you being stolen from when in fact it is admission you used the dice, you know how and why you used the dice and you're not telling us how or why you used the dice.

I didn't "use" the dice.  I know what happened to the dice, though.  Love Doctor's fault.

That is not how the Love Doctor works. People can not use the Love Doctor to steal/destroy dice from another player. As far as Ichi makes it sound you have to target yourself. But, assuming even another player could be targeted, you would have to gain some benefit, since losing dice makes someone loved. So, right now, you are super lying Ash.

PPE: 3

You are making things up, man.  Who said you can use the love doc to steal/destroy dice?

You don't use the love doctor so much as pay him.  Give him 5 dice, receive permanent love in return.  Give him a lynch vote tomorrow, get 2 dice.

I'm super telling the truth and you'll feel like a doofus if you are town.  I'll forgive you after the game, though.

Okay, so why are you saying someone targeted you with him? Why not take the dice and just look townie?

Exactly.  Why didn't i do that?  Isn't that what scum does?  Or just keeps quiet?

I believe the NPCs are player-controlled.  I believe also that Love Doc should have been claimed by now.  Those who received him before me knew this danger lurked, but said nothing.

Maybe scum used it on themselves, but are limited in the number of times they can target?

I don't know the setup, but there are clearly variables that haven't been accounted for.

[Beyond Awesome]

If you did not lose dice nor gain dice, then you would be telling the truth. But, because you gave the Love Doctor dice that means you are lying scum and you are loved.

PPE

[ashersky]

And, yes, you are loved because that was the option you chose.

And you remain wrong.

Think outside your narrow constraints on this.

Does no one play Dominion?

[Beyond Awesome]

I never implied I was stolen from.  You added that context yourself.

See, I think you want to use this point to paint yourself cleaner than the guy who interpreted it as you being stolen from when in fact it is admission you used the dice, you know how and why you used the dice and you're not telling us how or why you used the dice.

I didn't "use" the dice.  I know what happened to the dice, though.  Love Doctor's fault.

That is not how the Love Doctor works. People can not use the Love Doctor to steal/destroy dice from another player. As far as Ichi makes it sound you have to target yourself. But, assuming even another player could be targeted, you would have to gain some benefit, since losing dice makes someone loved. So, right now, you are super lying Ash.

PPE: 3

You are making things up, man.  Who said you can use the love doc to steal/destroy dice?

You don't use the love doctor so much as pay him.  Give him 5 dice, receive permanent love in return.  Give him a lynch vote tomorrow, get 2 dice.

I'm super telling the truth and you'll feel like a doofus if you are town.  I'll forgive you after the game, though.

Okay, so why are you saying someone targeted you with him? Why not take the dice and just look townie?

Exactly.  Why didn't i do that?  Isn't that what scum does?  Or just keeps quiet?

I believe the NPCs are player-controlled.  I believe also that Love Doc should have been claimed by now.  Those who received him before me knew this danger lurked, but said nothing.

Maybe scum used it on themselves, but are limited in the number of times they can target?

I don't know the setup, but there are clearly variables that haven't been accounted for.

I have no idea what your strategy is or what you are trying to achieve Ash.

[ashersky]

If you did not lose dice nor gain dice, then you would be telling the truth. But, because you gave the Love Doctor dice that means you are lying scum and you are loved.

PPE

Was TR/Feast too difficult for you?

How about Torturer in the late game?  Do you always discard 2 cards?

[Beyond Awesome]

And, yes, you are loved because that was the option you chose.

And you remain wrong.

Think outside your narrow constraints on this.

Does no one play Dominion?

WW and Hydrad can also quote what Ichi said in the QT. That is what I am going off of. I trust Ichi a lot more than I trust you.

[Beyond Awesome]

If you did not lose dice nor gain dice, then you would be telling the truth. But, because you gave the Love Doctor dice that means you are lying scum and you are loved.

PPE

Was TR/Feast too difficult for you?

How about Torturer in the late game?  Do you always discard 2 cards?

What does TR/Feast have to do with the Love Doctor?

[pingpongsam]

Town ash would be so fed up with this by now he would have self-voted just to show BA how wrong he is.

[ashersky]

Ichimaru and I are in agreement on the choices offered by the Love Doctor.

[ashersky]

Town ash would be so fed up with this by now he would have self-voted just to show BA how wrong he is.

Nah.  I'm letting him dig a gigantic hole from which he will never be able to escape.  His embarrassment will be epic.

[Beyond Awesome]

Ichimaru and I are in agreement on the choices offered by the Love Doctor.

Yes. Which means you had to target yourself.

[Beyond Awesome]

And, you lost dice, so that means you are loved.

[ashersky]

BA, think this through.  Are there any other possibilities?

I had 4 dice in my supply at the beginning of the night.  I ended with zero.

[Archetype]

If ash is Town, he's being difficult on purpose. Otherwise he would explain why he lost his dice if it wasn't by the Love Doctor.

[ashersky]

If ash is Town, he's being difficult on purpose. Otherwise he would explain why he lost his dice if it wasn't by the Love Doctor.

It was "by" the Love Doctor.  I've said that.

[Beyond Awesome]

BA, think this through.  Are there any other possibilities?

I had 4 dice in my supply at the beginning of the night.  I ended with zero.

Okay, then explain to me what happened. Explain to me how someone else targeted you with the Love Doctor. Explain to me how you know what the 4 abilities of the Love Doctor are? If someone else targeted you, you should have not known? If someone sent the Love Doctor to you, you would know what those 4 abilities are. Options that give you dice means it takes one less vote to lynch you. Options that make you lose dice make it so you are loved. It is very simple. So, explain to me how someone targeted you, how you gained no benefit, and also how you know what the 4 abilities of the Love Doctor? Explain in a way that actually makes logical sense.

PPE

[pingpongsam]

If ash is Town, he's being difficult on purpose. Otherwise he would explain why he lost his dice if it wasn't by the Love Doctor.

It was "by" the Love Doctor.  I've said that.

Right, so explain how you lost dice "by" the LD without spending the dice to get Loved.

[Beyond Awesome]

If ash is Town, he's being difficult on purpose. Otherwise he would explain why he lost his dice if it wasn't by the Love Doctor.

It was "by" the Love Doctor.  I've said that.

So, how do you know his abilities then?

[ashersky]

If you choose to gain a curse, but there are no curses left in the supply, what happens?

[Beyond Awesome]

If ash is Town, he's being difficult on purpose. Otherwise he would explain why he lost his dice if it wasn't by the Love Doctor.

It was "by" the Love Doctor.  I've said that.

Right, so explain how you lost dice "by" the LD without spending the dice to get Loved.

This too. Please explain Ash. I am dying to know.

[ashersky]

If ash is Town, he's being difficult on purpose. Otherwise he would explain why he lost his dice if it wasn't by the Love Doctor.

It was "by" the Love Doctor.  I've said that.

So, how do you know his abilities then?

Because someone targeted me with the love doctor, resulting in him bring in my QT last night.

[ashersky]

If you choose to gain a curse, but there are no curses left in the supply, what happens?

Talking about the Torturer choice here, in case that wasn't clear.

[Beyond Awesome]

If you choose to gain a curse, but there are no curses left in the supply, what happens?

So, now what you are trying to say is that someone targeted you with the Love Doctor (not you), you somehow know the Love Doctor's abilities, and someone wanted to make you permanently loved and as a result, you lost 4 dice and gained no benefit. That still doesn't explain how you know the Love Doctor's abilities.

PPE

[ashersky]

If you choose to gain a curse, but there are no curses left in the supply, what happens?

So, now what you are trying to say is that someone targeted you with the Love Doctor (not you), you somehow know the Love Doctor's abilities, and someone wanted to make you permanently loved and as a result, you lost 4 dice and gained no benefit. That still doesn't explain how you know the Love Doctor's abilities.

PPE

I'm saying someone targeted me with the Love Doctor on N3, just like XP targeted me with The Mentalist on N2.

I don't know what that person wanted me to choose.

What are not understanding?  The Love Doctor is in my QT.

[Beyond Awesome]

If ash is Town, he's being difficult on purpose. Otherwise he would explain why he lost his dice if it wasn't by the Love Doctor.

It was "by" the Love Doctor.  I've said that.

So, how do you know his abilities then?

Because someone targeted me with the love doctor, resulting in him bring in my QT last night.

Dude. This has got to be like a contradiction here. I mean, seriously, if someone had targeted you with the LD (which I don't think is possible), then why would he be in your QT listing the choices? Why would it not say the Love Doctor targeted you last night and leave it at that?

PPE:

[ashersky]

Fuck, man.

[ashersky]

To "target" means basically to select someone at night.  So a cop targets a player to investigate.  A doctor targets a player to protect.  A Mentalist Advisor targets someone to be visited by The Mentalist.  A "unknown" targeted me to be visited by the Love Doctor.

[Archetype]

Did you use the 5 Dice Love Doctor cost thing, but couldn't pay the price, so you lost all 4?

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, so let's take the very improbably scenario. Someone targeted you with the LD. Why would they do that? Why would you bring it up on this day when there was no need to mention you had no dice left? Also, Ichi was not targeted by the Love Doctor. He was given four options, and he was able to target himself. So, how was another player able to target you when Ichi only targeted himself. Maybe Ichi failed to mention he could target another player. But, I doubt that.

[Beyond Awesome]

To "target" means basically to select someone at night.  So a cop targets a player to investigate.  A doctor targets a player to protect.  A Mentalist Advisor targets someone to be visited by The Mentalist.  A "unknown" targeted me to be visited by the Love Doctor.

Okay, so you were visited. So, that means, you had choices you could choose from, correct? Are you denying this? Are you trying to tell me the choices were already made for you?

[Beyond Awesome]

Did you use the 5 Dice Love Doctor cost thing, but couldn't pay the price, so you lost all 4?

Assuming that is what happened, that still means he was trying to become permanently loved.

[Beyond Awesome]

Oh, and Ichi could not choose who the Love Doctor visited next and he had it N2 Ash. So, I think he was the only player capable of sending it your way.

[liopoil]

Dude is just...he's scum guys.

Look at his posts.  No new content, ideas, scumhunting, or anything.  They're all just "hey, that's a good idea, just don't target X, target Y instead."

He's been scummy all game.

My lynch order: liopoil > PPS > Faust.

If we aren't lynching lio today, we should definitely lynch lio as a second choice.  If neither of those are working out, then lio is an acceptable third choice.

Actually, what Ash says here is true. I started doing my complete reread from D1 on up. I was gone for most of today, so I have not had much time to further my reading. But, I noticed that lio plays super conservative. He pretty much posts so that he doesn't seem like a lurker, but that's it. He doesn't seem to do anything to try and get noticed. He doesn't cast suspicion on other players. He doesn't say anything that can really get a reaction from other players. Of all the players, I am actually finding his play style the most scummy because everyone else stands out more. Everyone is more engaged in this game. You can argue lio is engaged, but most of his engagement is just posting to post stuff.

that's just not true. I contribute what I have to contribute, which I think is a decent amount. I could say that this is an attack against my playstyle, but I know it's not meant that way.

catching up, something about love doctor going on. Responding as I read.

[ashersky]

Okay, so let's take the very improbably scenario. Someone targeted you with the LD. Why would they do that? Why would you bring it up on this day when there was no need to mention you had no dice left? Also, Ichi was not targeted by the Love Doctor. He was given four options, and he was able to target himself. So, how was another player able to target you when Ichi only targeted himself. Maybe Ichi failed to mention he could target another player. But, I doubt that.

I don't know why the controller of the love doctor sent him to me.  Just like I don't know why XP sent the Mentalist to me.

I brought it up for two reasons: 1) I wanted to see if I could get the controller to out himself, and 2) how can town NOT tell everyone else that the option to become loved, and therefore Lylo unlynchable, is in the game?

Ichi could not "target himself."  There's no targeting with Hated or Loved.  We get to "buy" an option, basically.

[ashersky]

Oh, and Ichi could not choose who the Love Doctor visited next and he had it N2 Ash. So, I think he was the only player capable of sending it your way.

No.  The Love Doctor controller chooses a target each night is a perfectly viable answer, just like XP did with The Mentalist.

[ashersky]

Did you use the 5 Dice Love Doctor cost thing, but couldn't pay the price, so you lost all 4?

Assuming that is what happened, that still means he was trying to become permanently loved.

Arch wins the prize.

Now, assume I'm not an idiot and can count to 5.  Do you still think I was trying to become permanently loved through that decision?

[Archetype]

Okay, so let's take the very improbably scenario. Someone targeted you with the LD. Why would they do that? Why would you bring it up on this day when there was no need to mention you had no dice left? Also, Ichi was not targeted by the Love Doctor. He was given four options, and he was able to target himself. So, how was another player able to target you when Ichi only targeted himself. Maybe Ichi failed to mention he could target another player. But, I doubt that.

I don't know why the controller of the love doctor sent him to me.  Just like I don't know why XP sent the Mentalist to me.

I brought it up for two reasons: 1) I wanted to see if I could get the controller to out himself, and 2) how can town NOT tell everyone else that the option to become loved, and therefore Lylo unlynchable, is in the game?

Ichi could not "target himself."  There's no targeting with Hated or Loved.  We get to "buy" an option, basically.

1) If the controller was scum, why would he out himself?
2) You seeemed OK with not telling everyone until I asked what this "stuff" that happened to you was and Hydrad mentioned the Love Doctor

[Witherweaver]

We're all pretty sure neither LD or GR has a controller.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, so let's take the very improbably scenario. Someone targeted you with the LD. Why would they do that? Why would you bring it up on this day when there was no need to mention you had no dice left? Also, Ichi was not targeted by the Love Doctor. He was given four options, and he was able to target himself. So, how was another player able to target you when Ichi only targeted himself. Maybe Ichi failed to mention he could target another player. But, I doubt that.

I don't know why the controller of the love doctor sent him to me.  Just like I don't know why XP sent the Mentalist to me.

I brought it up for two reasons: 1) I wanted to see if I could get the controller to out himself, and 2) how can town NOT tell everyone else that the option to become loved, and therefore Lylo unlynchable, is in the game?

Ichi could not "target himself."  There's no targeting with Hated or Loved.  We get to "buy" an option, basically.

Yes, exactly. You got to buy an option. And, as far as I know, you can only buy for yourself not another player. Therefore, you tried to buy for yourself. And, even if you did not, you still chose an option that cost you to lose dice and you decided to buy for someone else. Either way, you spent dice to try and make someone permanently loved. Why?

[ashersky]

I was waiting to see what I could coax out.  See Jimmmm with a guilty result on me in Chocolate Factory for another instance of this strategy.  (Didn't work there, either.)

[Witherweaver]

Where did The Mentalist go, by the way?

[ashersky]

We're all pretty sure neither LD or GR has a controller.

Why?  What proof is there of that, whatsoever?

[Archetype]

Did you use the 5 Dice Love Doctor cost thing, but couldn't pay the price, so you lost all 4?

Assuming that is what happened, that still means he was trying to become permanently loved.

Arch wins the prize.

Now, assume I'm not an idiot and can count to 5.  Do you still think I was trying to become permanently loved through that decision?

Yes. Why would Town choose to get rid of their dice?

[Archetype]

Where did The Mentalist go, by the way?

I have him.

[ashersky]

Where did The Mentalist go, by the way?

I sent him to Arch.  He hasn't claimed a result on me, PPS, or Faust.

[ashersky]

Did you use the 5 Dice Love Doctor cost thing, but couldn't pay the price, so you lost all 4?

Assuming that is what happened, that still means he was trying to become permanently loved.

Arch wins the prize.

Now, assume I'm not an idiot and can count to 5.  Do you still think I was trying to become permanently loved through that decision?

Yes. Why would Town choose to get rid of their dice?

So you do think I'm an idiot who thought 4=5 and it would work out for me.  Thanks.

[Beyond Awesome]

I was waiting to see what I could coax out.  See Jimmmm with a guilty result on me in Chocolate Factory for another instance of this strategy.  (Didn't work there, either.)

If you are telling the truth, you have just made yourself seem even scummier. Also, how do you manage to spend 4 dice on a 5 dice ability. That sounds almost impossible. And, again, why try to make yourself or someone else permanently loved? Unless, you are actually saying you chose none of the options and actually did not lose dice, but wanted to pretend you lost dice just to see how people reacted. Honestly, Ash, I have no idea what you are trying to do.

[Archetype]

Did you use the 5 Dice Love Doctor cost thing, but couldn't pay the price, so you lost all 4?

Assuming that is what happened, that still means he was trying to become permanently loved.

Arch wins the prize.

Now, assume I'm not an idiot and can count to 5.  Do you still think I was trying to become permanently loved through that decision?

Yes. Why would Town choose to get rid of their dice?

So you do think I'm an idiot who thought 4=5 and it would work out for me.  Thanks.

You misremembering how many dice you have is the only rational explanation I can think of if you're Town.

[pingpongsam]

Where did The Mentalist go, by the way?

I sent him to Arch.  He hasn't claimed a result on me, PPS, or Faust.

Because he is your scum partner and your about to get lynched so he can't result you as Town or he'd be fried tomorrow and he can't result Townies as scum because he is also fried the next day and you get it the next for having sent it to him as his partner?

[Archetype]

Jimmmmm: Can we get a Vote Count?

[pingpongsam]

Yeah, ash has not explained why he lost dice "by" the Love Doctor. He just acts as if we don't understand the rules of dominion or play poorly with Torturer as if that explains it all neatly.

[Archetype]

Where did The Mentalist go, by the way?

I sent him to Arch.  He hasn't claimed a result on me, PPS, or Faust.

Because he is your scum partner and your about to get lynched so he can't result you as Town or he'd be fried tomorrow and he can't result Townies as scum because he is also fried the next day and you get it the next for having sent it to him as his partner?

Or I sacrificed a 9 to guarantee a kill yesterday, leaving me unable to purchase a Cop investigation.

[pingpongsam]

If ash is Town, he's being difficult on purpose. Otherwise he would explain why he lost his dice if it wasn't by the Love Doctor.

It was "by" the Love Doctor.  I've said that.

Right, so explain how you lost dice "by" the LD without spending the dice to get Loved.

[Witherweaver]

We're all pretty sure neither LD or GR has a controller.

Why?  What proof is there of that, whatsoever?

Pigeonhole principle.

[pingpongsam]

Where did The Mentalist go, by the way?

I sent him to Arch.  He hasn't claimed a result on me, PPS, or Faust.

Because he is your scum partner and your about to get lynched so he can't result you as Town or he'd be fried tomorrow and he can't result Townies as scum because he is also fried the next day and you get it the next for having sent it to him as his partner?

Or I sacrificed a 9 to guarantee a kill yesterday, leaving me unable to purchase a Cop investigation.

Or that. chairs sent the thing to the one guy we all knew had no dice at all and he turned up town...

[liopoil]

ash, why did you want to get rid of all of your dice?

[Witherweaver]

Can we track the path of all these NPC types?

Grim Reaper: Faust N1 -> WW N3 (not directed)

[Beyond Awesome]

Can we track the path of all these NPC types?

Grim Reaper: Faust N1 -> WW N3 (not directed)

LD
N1 Unknown -> N2 Ichi -> N3 Ash

[Archetype]

Can we track the path of all these NPC types?

Grim Reaper: Faust N1 -> WW N3 (not directed)

LD
N1 Unknown -> N2 Ichi -> N3 Ash

Mentalist
N0 faust -> N1 PPS -> N2 ashersky -> N3 Archetype

[Witherweaver]

And only the Mentalist has been directed by the person it visited.

Wasn't there a Dice Vendor or something that was brought up before?  Or is that another word for Mentalist?

[Witherweaver]

Or was Mentalist directed by Xerxes to Faust, PPS, then Ash until he died?

[Archetype]

And only the Mentalist has been directed by the person it visited.

Wasn't there a Dice Vendor or something that was brought up before?  Or is that another word for Mentalist?

There is a Dice Vendor. I have that too.

N1 chairs -> N2 PPS -> N3 Archetype

[Witherweaver]

Damn.  Can you recap what they do?

[Archetype]

Or was Mentalist directed by Xerxes to Faust, PPS, then Ash until he died?

Xerxes directed the Mentalist. Once he died, whoever was currently holding the Mentalist could then pass it off to a player of their choice. There's some restrictions with who you can give it to, but no reason mentioning them until someone receives it themselves.

[Archetype]

Damn.  Can you recap what they do?

Also, since PPS has received the Dice Vendor (who may be scum) and ashersky has received the Mentalist (who I'm pretty sure is scum), scum probably already knows what they do. So I don't see any harm in claiming what both the Mentalist and Dice Vendor do.

Dice Vendor lets the holder exchange stored dice and get 1 die for every 2 pips on the exchanged dice.

Mentalist has the holder spend 20 pips to investigate one player. If you're Town, you're told the player's alignment. If you're scum, you're told their Role.

Each one is passed to someone else by the end of each day.

[Beyond Awesome]

If ash is Town, he's being difficult on purpose. Otherwise he would explain why he lost his dice if it wasn't by the Love Doctor.

It was "by" the Love Doctor.  I've said that.

Right, so explain how you lost dice "by" the LD without spending the dice to get Loved.

Ash, you still have not explained this.

[Witherweaver]

Were you told in the QT during the night that you would have the ability to pass it on?

My message from Grim Reaper said nothing about passing it on.

[Hydrad]

Oh man. even though I feel like ash is scum I think lots of people are misunderstanding him. I could be too but here is my go at what he means.

Ash got visited by LD. ash did not pick any options from the LD. Dice went missing anyways even though he did not choose anything. Ash is thinking LD might have done something to him to make him lose the dice (this one i'm not to sure on)?

This is my overview of what I think ash is talking about.

[Witherweaver]

Problem is there is no reason for Ash to jump to that conclusion, or for him to be acting in the deliberate misleading way he has been.

[Beyond Awesome]

Oh man. even though I feel like ash is scum I think lots of people are misunderstanding him. I could be too but here is my go at what he means.

Ash got visited by LD. ash did not pick any options from the LD. Dice went missing anyways even though he did not choose anything. Ash is thinking LD might have done something to him to make him lose the dice (this one i'm not to sure on)?

This is my overview of what I think ash is talking about.

If that is what he meant then he should have said that the LD visited him, he chose no option (instead he says he got no benefit), all of his dice went missing, and he thinks the LD is responsible for that somehow, but it is also possible someone stole his dice.

[liopoil]

Oh man. even though I feel like ash is scum I think lots of people are misunderstanding him. I could be too but here is my go at what he means.

Ash got visited by LD. ash did not pick any options from the LD. Dice went missing anyways even though he did not choose anything. Ash is thinking LD might have done something to him to make him lose the dice (this one i'm not to sure on)?

This is my overview of what I think ash is talking about.

no, it's pretty clear that he used the LD to get rid of all his dice intentionally. We're not sure why...

[ashersky]

Oh man. even though I feel like ash is scum I think lots of people are misunderstanding him. I could be too but here is my go at what he means.

Ash got visited by LD. ash did not pick any options from the LD. Dice went missing anyways even though he did not choose anything. Ash is thinking LD might have done something to him to make him lose the dice (this one i'm not to sure on)?

This is my overview of what I think ash is talking about.

If that is what he meant then he should have said that the LD visited him, he chose no option (instead he says he got no benefit), all of his dice went missing, and he thinks the LD is responsible for that somehow, but it is also possible someone stole his dice.

Back.

That's not what I meant.

[Beyond Awesome]

Oh man. even though I feel like ash is scum I think lots of people are misunderstanding him. I could be too but here is my go at what he means.

Ash got visited by LD. ash did not pick any options from the LD. Dice went missing anyways even though he did not choose anything. Ash is thinking LD might have done something to him to make him lose the dice (this one i'm not to sure on)?

This is my overview of what I think ash is talking about.

If ash is Town, he's being difficult on purpose. Otherwise he would explain why he lost his dice if it wasn't by the Love Doctor.

It was "by" the Love Doctor.  I've said that.

[Beyond Awesome]

Oh man. even though I feel like ash is scum I think lots of people are misunderstanding him. I could be too but here is my go at what he means.

Ash got visited by LD. ash did not pick any options from the LD. Dice went missing anyways even though he did not choose anything. Ash is thinking LD might have done something to him to make him lose the dice (this one i'm not to sure on)?

This is my overview of what I think ash is talking about.

If that is what he meant then he should have said that the LD visited him, he chose no option (instead he says he got no benefit), all of his dice went missing, and he thinks the LD is responsible for that somehow, but it is also possible someone stole his dice.

Back.

That's not what I meant.

So, what did you mean? And, explain how you lost dice without spending them?

[ashersky]

ash, why did you want to get rid of all of your dice?

This guy gets it.

[ashersky]

So, what did you mean? And, explain how you lost dice without spending them?

Next post.

[Beyond Awesome]

ash, why did you want to get rid of all of your dice?

This guy gets it.

Okay, so why did you want to get rid of your dice? Stop playing games.

[Beyond Awesome]

Did you use the 5 Dice Love Doctor cost thing, but couldn't pay the price, so you lost all 4?

Assuming that is what happened, that still means he was trying to become permanently loved.

Arch wins the prize.

Now, assume I'm not an idiot and can count to 5.  Do you still think I was trying to become permanently loved through that decision?

Good thing I went back and reread some of the earlier pages

Okay, so you did try to lose 4 dice. Why? Why did you chose that option? What were you trying to accomplish Ash? Stop speaking in riddles and start talking some sense.

[ashersky]

Fairly certain most of you have made up your mind about me, but regardless, here's your answer.

First, assume I'm town for this explanation.  Like I said, I'm fairly certain you have made up your mind, but anyway, put this in a town!ash context, okay?

By the end of Day 3, the game state was every player having claimed except for me.  Of course, that's sort of scummy, as has been pointed out.  But, again, assume I’m town.  What’s scum thinking at this point?

They know I’m town, and they know I’ve managed to make it through everything without claiming at all.  What town players don’t like claiming?  The ones with strong PRs.

Now, you also can assume I’m not anyone’s top town read and unlikely to be protected or helped.  My goal was to be scum’s nightkill on N3.  Secondarily, I figured they may target me with one of their powers, including affecting/stealing/destroying my dice.

So, with those things in mind, I looked at the Love Doctor’s options.  At first, I was just going to ignore him.  I had 4 dice, so the 1-day options were all that were available.  I didn’t want to actively gain Hated in exchange for dice that would possibly be stolen, or go to waste when I died.  Loved wasn’t doing me anything, and it generally anti-town, unless I could setup a derphammer that failed and caught scum.  I originally chose to discard 2 dice, since that's 2 dice left to be stolen...

But then I looked at the other options (5 dice).  I asked the mod if I could select an option I couldn’t afford.  The answer was yes, but that I would pay however many dice I could pay and would not receive the reward if I couldn’t afford it.  Here was my answer!  A way to get rid of my supply dice without affecting the game state.

So I selected Permanently Loved, knowing I would lose my 4 dice and not affecting my lynch status.  Now, scum couldn’t steal my dice, which was my only worry.  Another thing we don’t know that we haven’t (publicly) taken into consideration was what if scum gain the supply dice of their nightkills?  As I expected to die, I didn’t want that happening.

So, there's the full explanation for how the Love Doctor resulted in me having no supply dice today.

[Beyond Awesome]

Why were you being so difficult earlier? And, why should I believe you are telling the truth?

[ashersky]

Why were you being so difficult earlier? And, why should I believe you are telling the truth?

I'm a difficult person.

Seriously though, I was trying to glean as much information as possible by forcing reactions to my play.  Even if people don't claim things, the way they react to others is how you scumhunt.

As for why to believe me, I keep coming back to this, but what good did I do myself if I'm scum?  Like, Loved Scum on D4 is still dead scum if you try to lynch me and it fails at L.  Someone else votes and then I die.  If I was planning to use my loved status to help survive and win, I'm definitely NOT claiming it for you all.  I'm not talking about it at all.  So that's not sensible.

It also doesn't help me mislynch anyway, which is scum's daily goal.  My claim doesn't directly implicate anyone, and no one owned up to sending me the Love Doctor.  And sending me the Love Doctor doesn't make you scum or the lynch.

There just isn't a scum reason for all this.  If you still think I'm scum anyway, I'd like to know why you think I did it.  I'm good at being scum, generally speaking.  I would argue that this would have been a terrible play on scum!ash's part.

[pingpongsam]

Where do you suggest I place my vote, ashersky?

[Beyond Awesome]

Hmm, unvote for now.

I still want to finish my complete re-read.?

But, how is choosing to lose all your dice pro-town

First, PPS does it and now you do it too. Am I missing something? I mean, yes, sure scum can likely steal dice, but if town has no dice left, how are we supposed to defeat the monsters? We don't know what benefit scum gets. I imagine it could be something like an extra NK or something.

[Witherweaver]

How is this possibly good town play?  Why would scum NK or attack the guy that's just about on the top of everyone's lynch list?

[ashersky]

Where do you suggest I place my vote, ashersky?

Honestly?  Here's my current reads...

faust:  Town.  I had a scumread on this guy all game.  But his reaction to my reveal today was the most towny of them all.  Could he play it cool?  Sure.  But I think he just reacted the way I think town should.
BA:  Town.  Why?  Because I don't think he goes so over the top after me as scum.  Scum knows I'm town, even if they don't know what I'm doing.  Do they press hard to discredit me like BA did?  I just can't see it.  I think he's just sorely mistaken town here.
WW:  If BA is town, WW has to be, right?  Mason claim.

That leaves Arch, liopoil, Hydrad, and PPS as possible scum for me at the moment.  I've had a scumread on liopoil forever, and it has never abated.  I feel like shraeye, but I am pretty convinced I'm right.

I think that's the best place to lynch.  Finding his partner...not sure.  Mail-mi was super scummy, then I had a towny read on Arch, but now he's lost that cred.  Hydrad has been an enigma for me as I just don't know him, but folks seem to find him towny.  And PPS...I firmly believe my statement that the scummier PPS plays, the less likely he is to be scum.  I think he's aware of that and could play to it, though.

So, I think if I had to choose a lynch right now, I'd go with liopoil.

[ashersky]

How is this possibly good town play?  Why would scum NK or attack the guy that's just about on the top of everyone's lynch list?

Because they know I'm not scum.  Because they can't know what I will claim when finally forced to.  Because they can't know if I know or can find out who they are.  If I was a cop-style role, my chances of catching scum go up every night.  Scum see non-claiming town as threats, unless they rolecopped me or something.  (I guess it's possible Arch rolecopped me with the Mentalist, for example.)  I am the best Rolecop target, given I hadn't claimed, so that's an issue.  But I doubt they have the rolecop power since it's part of the Mentalist, and I had a town read on Arch going into N3.

As for how is giving up all my dice good town play...depending on the monster, I could still contribute.  Folks can give me dice later.  Etc. etc.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: liopoil

I've read ash and lio as scum all game. I think they could be partners but unlikely. I think one of them definitely is. I believe ash's story. I played a similar scheme earlier by trying to be the mislynch while I was dice less and playing difficult to draw out reactions.

That ash has come around to Faust being town is sufficient evidence he may be the town between him and lio.

[Beyond Awesome]

Wait, what? What's this about Arch rolecopping Ash? I don't recall Arch ever saying he did that?

[Beyond Awesome]

Oh wait, never mind, I see Ash was hypothesizing.

[Beyond Awesome]

Vote: liopoil

I've read ash and lio as scum all game. I think they could be partners but unlikely. I think one of them definitely is. I believe ash's story. I played a similar scheme earlier by trying to be the mislynch while I was dice less and playing difficult to draw out reactions.

That ash has come around to Faust being town is sufficient evidence he may be the town between him and lio.

Okay, I will say this. I really think lio is scum. However, lio's role is confirmed, so that makes it highly likely that either you or Ash are his partner and is the dice destroyer.

[liopoil]

I believe ash got the LD, of course. I don't think he made the right decision if he is town, because it seems that he was neither stolen from or killed, and really, I don't know why he thought he might be.

I do think that claiming this could make sense as scum. Now he doesn't have to roll dice for town anymore! Also, so that he can say this:

There just isn't a scum reason for all this.  If you still think I'm scum anyway, I'd like to know why you think I did it.  I'm good at being scum, generally speaking.  I would argue that this would have been a terrible play on scum!ash's part.

One way to act townie, and hence play well as scum, is to act like you played terribly if you were scum.

That said, I still vastly prefer a pps lynch over an ash lynch.

Vote: liopoil

I've read ash and lio as scum all game. I think they could be partners but unlikely. I think one of them definitely is. I believe ash's story. I played a similar scheme earlier by trying to be the mislynch while I was dice less and playing difficult to draw out reactions.

That ash has come around to Faust being town is sufficient evidence he may be the town between him and lio.

false, you have not read me as scum all game. Why is coming around to faust being town evidence that he is town? He was like, one of the last people to do so.

Also, nowhere here do you give a reason to suspect me. And I don't think anyone has provided a good one this game.

[pingpongsam]

Please illustrate the posts where I posit lio as town. I know I can unearth at least two where I say pretty much exactly what I just said about ash and lio possibly being partners but definitely scum between them. If lio flips scum I believe the other scum will be evident between the dual gambits ash and I played.

[liopoil]

Please illustrate the posts where I posit lio as town.

Okay

Liopoil is clearly town.

[Beyond Awesome]

Please illustrate the posts where I posit lio as town.

Okay

Liopoil is clearly town.

That post is way back from July 2nd. That was almost three weeks ago.

[ashersky]

Please illustrate the posts where I posit lio as town.

Okay

Liopoil is clearly town.

That's pretty funny.

[pingpongsam]

Haha, yeah it is. I said it about Yuma too, who I helped lynch. I was playing a completely misleading game at the time. Touché, though.

[ashersky]

I do think that claiming this could make sense as scum. Now he doesn't have to roll dice for town anymore! Also, so that he can say this:

There just isn't a scum reason for all this.  If you still think I'm scum anyway, I'd like to know why you think I did it.  I'm good at being scum, generally speaking.  I would argue that this would have been a terrible play on scum!ash's part.

One way to act townie, and hence play well as scum, is to act like you played terribly if you were scum.

This becomes a circular wifom argument at some point.  I can't be scum because that's terrible scum play...he just did terrible scum play so he could claim that...he just did that so he could be accused of doing that so he could say he did that...etc.

The "terrible scum play to gain town cred" play has been done, but it isn't very useful.  Generally it just ends in scum teams losing.

[liopoil]

I do think that claiming this could make sense as scum. Now he doesn't have to roll dice for town anymore! Also, so that he can say this:

There just isn't a scum reason for all this.  If you still think I'm scum anyway, I'd like to know why you think I did it.  I'm good at being scum, generally speaking.  I would argue that this would have been a terrible play on scum!ash's part.

One way to act townie, and hence play well as scum, is to act like you played terribly if you were scum.

This becomes a circular wifom argument at some point.  I can't be scum because that's terrible scum play...he just did terrible scum play so he could claim that...he just did that so he could be accused of doing that so he could say he did that...etc.

The "terrible scum play to gain town cred" play has been done, but it isn't very useful.  Generally it just ends in scum teams losing.

right, that's why it's a null read on you, no townpoints. Especially because I don't think it makes sense as town.

[liopoil]

Wagon analysis, because we have a bit more perspective now, sort of.

Voltaire (eight): mail-mi, Hydrad, Ichimaru Gin, XerxesPraelor, Beyond Awesome, faust, pingpongsam, ashersky

I don't glean much from this one, unfortunately. pps and ash were on-wagon... but voltaire would likely have been lynched eventually  anyway. arch-mi doesn't get towncred either, because he totally could have been scum going for some early bussing but got caught on-wagon and couldn't leave without looking super scummy once voltaire flipped. So just more towncred for Hydrad, and a bit more of feeling safe about BA and WW telling the truth.

2.71828..... (7): faust, pingpongsam, Ichimaru Gin, Hydrad, Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome, chairs

We are assuming BA and WW are town for today, and Hydrad and faust are consensus town reads, and for good reasons.

Could there be no scum on that lynch? Sure, but I doubt it.

Guys, lynch pps. He's scum.

chairs (6): liopoil, Archetype, Hydrad, Beyond Awesome, pingpongsam, ashersky

pps and ash in the scummiest positions of all, but really, chairs was scummy, so I can see mostly town being on the wagon. However I'm not sure pps and ash expressed all that much suspicion of chairs.

[pingpongsam]

I led the charge on chairs.

[pingpongsam]

The day he was lynched anyhow.

[ashersky]

The yuma/2.7 lynch was terrible.

[Witherweaver]

You just wanted to be able to hammer everyone this game~

[Witherweaver]

Actually, another thing:

chairs/WW's roles are too similar, and WW/PPS' roles are too similar as well.

Vote: Witherweaver

Do you still hold to this line of thinking?

[pingpongsam]

The yuma/2.7 lynch was terrible.

I am not arguing that point at all. I was saying that words to the effect of someone being town have little bearing against the fact I suspected them and my vote showed it.

[ashersky]

The yuma/2.7 lynch was terrible.

I am not arguing that point at all. I was saying that words to the effect of someone being town have little bearing against the fact I suspected them and my vote showed it.

I was just making a comment.  That's how I felt at the time and still feel. Wasn't directed toward anyone in particular.

[faust]

Actually, another thing:

chairs/WW's roles are too similar, and WW/PPS' roles are too similar as well.

Vote: Witherweaver

Do you still hold to this line of thinking?

Yes, which is why I still think you are scum. (Well, among other things)

[faust]

I really think ash is town after this.

[faust]

Which means the only possible scum teams possible to me are lio/PPS and Arch/PPS, both of which would imply that PPS targeted himself N0... really unlikely. Plus, ash has a point that the other NPCs are likely scum controlled, which means both scum lie about their roles, and then the only possible scum team is BA/WW.

[faust]

Where do you suggest I place my vote, ashersky?

Honestly?  Here's my current reads...

faust:  Town.  I had a scumread on this guy all game.  But his reaction to my reveal today was the most towny of them all.  Could he play it cool?  Sure.  But I think he just reacted the way I think town should.
BA:  Town.  Why?  Because I don't think he goes so over the top after me as scum.  Scum knows I'm town, even if they don't know what I'm doing.  Do they press hard to discredit me like BA did?  I just can't see it.  I think he's just sorely mistaken town here.
WW:  If BA is town, WW has to be, right?  Mason claim.

That leaves Arch, liopoil, Hydrad, and PPS as possible scum for me at the moment.  I've had a scumread on liopoil forever, and it has never abated.  I feel like shraeye, but I am pretty convinced I'm right.

I think that's the best place to lynch.  Finding his partner...not sure.  Mail-mi was super scummy, then I had a towny read on Arch, but now he's lost that cred.  Hydrad has been an enigma for me as I just don't know him, but folks seem to find him towny.  And PPS...I firmly believe my statement that the scummier PPS plays, the less likely he is to be scum.  I think he's aware of that and could play to it, though.

So, I think if I had to choose a lynch right now, I'd go with liopoil.

You are aware though that lio's role is confirmed? Do you agree that at least one scum is lying about their role? Because in that case, I don't think lio's the best lynch choice.

[ashersky]

Definitely think scum is lying somewhere.

[pingpongsam]

Scum is doing well at not being obvious today. If we whiff today they pretty well have game in hand. If we hit pay dirt I believe the other scum becomes immediately apparent.

[faust]

Definitely think scum is lying somewhere.

Which is why I don't want to lynch Arch or lio; their roles are pretty much confirmed.

[faust]

Scum is doing well at not being obvious today. If we whiff today they pretty well have game in hand. If we hit pay dirt I believe the other scum becomes immediately apparent.

Yes, because it's WW/BA!

[faust]

Side note: the quoted post above reads townie to me.

[Witherweaver]

Which means the only possible scum teams possible to me are lio/PPS and Arch/PPS, both of which would imply that PPS targeted himself N0... really unlikely. Plus, ash has a point that the other NPCs are likely scum controlled, which means both scum lie about their roles, and then the only possible scum team is BA/WW.

Not necessarily.  He could have been visited and used his dice to buy something.

[Witherweaver]

He also could have decided his dice wouldn't be as helpful as town cred, so let himself be targeted.  In this situation, he probably couldn't target himself so his partner claimed his real role and he made one up. 

[Witherweaver]

Actually, another thing:

chairs/WW's roles are too similar, and WW/PPS' roles are too similar as well.

Vote: Witherweaver

Do you still hold to this line of thinking?

Yes, which is why I still think you are scum. (Well, among other things)

Because my role sounds much faker than PPS's claim over multiple posts and three days?

[Witherweaver]

Which means the only possible scum teams possible to me are lio/PPS and Arch/PPS, both of which would imply that PPS targeted himself N0... really unlikely. Plus, ash has a point that the other NPCs are likely scum controlled, which means both scum lie about their roles, and then the only possible scum team is BA/WW.

What?  You think scum had power to destroy dice supply, control Grim Reaper, and control Love Doctor?

[Witherweaver]

I guess they could have to send NPCs as factional limitation.

[Witherweaver]

Has*

[pingpongsam]

It's not like my role is not at least partially confirmable. I can directly give a d12 to a person of my choosing. The d8 goes to whoever gains a dice in any other way, however.

[Witherweaver]

Unconfirmed roles are Faust, PPS, and Ash.  I think we should list from those.

[pingpongsam]

If I survive today I will be sending a person I think will survive the night a die. If they don't claim to have received it I will vote them and only them tomorrow.

[faust]

Actually, another thing:

chairs/WW's roles are too similar, and WW/PPS' roles are too similar as well.

Vote: Witherweaver

Do you still hold to this line of thinking?

Yes, which is why I still think you are scum. (Well, among other things)

Because my role sounds much faker than PPS's claim over multiple posts and three days?

Because chairs was town.

[faust]

Unconfirmed roles are Faust, PPS, and Ash.  I think we should list from those.

I have an idea for confirmation. Awaiting a response from Jimmmmm.

[faust]

By tomorrow, we should be able to confirm all roles except ashersky's. Which is why no lynch is exceptionally good here.

[faust]

Vote: No Lynch again.

[faust]

And we get a reward. Who cares if we kill tomorrow's monster? If we found the scum, that won't matter hopefully.

[pingpongsam]

Unvote

[Witherweaver]

Who confirmed Liopoil's role?

[faust]

Who confirmed Liopoil's role?

I did. And I think someone today...? Not sure about that though.

[faust]

Well, I found nothing today. lio, who was your target N3?

[faust]

Love Doc and Grim Reaper as scum-controlled entities make sense:

N1, the Grim Reaper visited me. I played a 9 that day, and the cheapest power the Grim Reaper lets you purchase costs 10. So scum knew they could safely send him to me without having to fear anything.

N2, the Love Doc visited Ichimaru, and Ichimaru died.

N3, the Grim Reaper (supposedly) visited WW, who I think is scum. The Love Doc visited ashersky, who was almost lynched for that.

There are definitely hints towards scum manipulation in this.

[Witherweaver]

Who confirmed Liopoil's role?

I did. And I think someone today...? Not sure about that though.

When did you confirm his role? 

[Witherweaver]

Love Doc and Grim Reaper as scum-controlled entities make sense:

N1, the Grim Reaper visited me. I played a 9 that day, and the cheapest power the Grim Reaper lets you purchase costs 10. So scum knew they could safely send him to me without having to fear anything.

N2, the Love Doc visited Ichimaru, and Ichimaru died.

N3, the Grim Reaper (supposedly) visited WW, who I think is scum. The Love Doc visited ashersky, who was almost lynched for that.

There are definitely hints towards scum manipulation in this.

So what happened with Love Doc Night 1 and Grim Reaper Night 2?  They get the night off?

[faust]

Who confirmed Liopoil's role?

I did. And I think someone today...? Not sure about that though.

When did you confirm his role?

On D2, there was something where I asked everyone whether they targeted me, and liopoil said yes. I received dice that night.

[Witherweaver]

No one else has confirmed Lio's role?  Lio, what did you do Night 2 and Night 3?

[faust]

Love Doc and Grim Reaper as scum-controlled entities make sense:

N1, the Grim Reaper visited me. I played a 9 that day, and the cheapest power the Grim Reaper lets you purchase costs 10. So scum knew they could safely send him to me without having to fear anything.

N2, the Love Doc visited Ichimaru, and Ichimaru died.

N3, the Grim Reaper (supposedly) visited WW, who I think is scum. The Love Doc visited ashersky, who was almost lynched for that.

There are definitely hints towards scum manipulation in this.

So what happened with Love Doc Night 1 and Grim Reaper Night 2?  They get the night off?

I suppose scum sends only one of them out each night.

[Witherweaver]

Love Doc and Grim Reaper as scum-controlled entities make sense:

N1, the Grim Reaper visited me. I played a 9 that day, and the cheapest power the Grim Reaper lets you purchase costs 10. So scum knew they could safely send him to me without having to fear anything.

N2, the Love Doc visited Ichimaru, and Ichimaru died.

N3, the Grim Reaper (supposedly) visited WW, who I think is scum. The Love Doc visited ashersky, who was almost lynched for that.

There are definitely hints towards scum manipulation in this.

So what happened with Love Doc Night 1 and Grim Reaper Night 2?  They get the night off?

I suppose scum sends only one of them out each night.

Then Ash must be lying.

[faust]

No one else has confirmed Lio's role?  Lio, what did you do Night 2 and Night 3?

Everyone got dice N2, so no confirmation possible. N3 is the interesting one.

[faust]

Then Ash must be lying.

...or you.

[Witherweaver]

Then Ash must be lying.

...or you.

And I'm not.  It should be obvious that I'm town.  There is no reasonable explanation for Hydrad, me, and BA all lying.

[Witherweaver]

I was also clearly visited by the Grim Reaper.  This is confirmable, and the only way a test could fail is if scum got to see the Grim Reaper QT message verbatim.

[faust]

Then Ash must be lying.

...or you.

And I'm not.  It should be obvious that I'm town.  There is no reasonable explanation for Hydrad, me, and BA all lying.

I never said Hydrad was lying.

[faust]

I was also clearly visited by the Grim Reaper.  This is confirmable, and the only way a test could fail is if scum got to see the Grim Reaper QT message verbatim.

Which is possible. Why don't we just wait until tomorrow, then your role and BA's are confirmed and we know you can't be the scum? I'll gladly lynch someone else then.

[Witherweaver]

Then read more carefully.  There's no way with the QT info that Hydrad and I could have constructed this masterful plan you claim to have cracked.  There was simply no time.

[Witherweaver]

I was also clearly visited by the Grim Reaper.  This is confirmable, and the only way a test could fail is if scum got to see the Grim Reaper QT message verbatim.

Which is possible. Why don't we just wait until tomorrow, then your role and BA's are confirmed and we know you can't be the scum? I'll gladly lynch someone else then.

Because then we only have one chance to lynch a scum instead of two. This sounds like a terrible town plan.

[faust]

Then read more carefully.  There's no way with the QT info that Hydrad and I could have constructed this masterful plan you claim to have cracked.  There was simply no time.

Again, what's the harm in waiting a day?

[Witherweaver]

Oh, tomorrow isn't MyLo if we don't lynch?

[faust]

Oh, tomorrow isn't MyLo if we don't lynch?

No, it's not. There will still be 7 players alive then.

[Witherweaver]

Oh, tomorrow isn't MyLo if we don't lynch?

No, it's not. There will still be 7 players alive then.

Okay.  But what's the benefit?  Also, if you're right and scum does get to control Grim Reaper/Love Doctor, then they can send to themselves.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: liopoil

[faust]

Oh, tomorrow isn't MyLo if we don't lynch?

No, it's not. There will still be 7 players alive then.

Okay.  But what's the benefit?  Also, if you're right and scum does get to control Grim Reaper/Love Doctor, then they can send to themselves.

Every role will be confirmed except ashersky's. If everyone except ashersky tells the truth, we lynch ashersky. If not, we lynch whoever is lying. Plus, there will be a reward tonight that should help us in some way.

[faust]

Even if both scum players are Loved tomorrow, we can still win this.

[faust]

Unvote

Vote: liopoil

What was that all about?

Also, vote no lynch!

[pingpongsam]

Unvote

Vote: liopoil

What was that all about?

Also, vote no lynch!

That was me considering your no lynch proposal and then going back to where I was before I considered it.

[faust]

I want everyone who's against no lynch to formulate why. I'm going to bed now.

Because only scum ever push for no-lynch. Also, when town bites the bullet and does it they lose. Otherwise, it's not a bad idea except the bit where one of Town dies and scum gets to do whatever the hell else they want to us tonight.

So, "that's what scum does" is not a valid argument. "When town does it they lose" is a similar empty statement. Of course one town dies, but our chances actually improve once there are 7 of us instead of 8.  And of which scum abilities are you afraid?

[faust]

I want everyone who's against no lynch to formulate why. I'm going to bed now.

Because that would be stupid, and it gives scum a free NK and also another night to steal more dice. Right now players are hurting for dice. Come D5, it is reasonable town will have a super hard time defeating the monster.

Scum can steal dice tonight anyway. As I already said, another scum kill actually helps us. We can also deal out more dice, so it's not a big issue.

[faust]

I want everyone who's against no lynch to formulate why. I'm going to bed now.

We have already caught scum. No lynch will give scum a free NK and allow them to steal more dice.

PPE: 2

Do you still think that you "caught scum"?

[faust]

I want everyone who's against no lynch to formulate why. I'm going to bed now.

Because that would be stupid, and it gives scum a free NK and also another night to steal more dice. Right now players are hurting for dice. Come D5, it is reasonable town will have a super hard time defeating the monster.

Oh, and another reason for no lynch, it might mean the love doctor visits another scum player, and the scum players might become unlynchable. A No Lynch is not just a bad, bad, bad idea. It is a scummy idea.

PPE: 1

Think things through. Even if both scum are loved tomorrow, we can still win.

[faust]

And these are all the arguments against no lynch. I don't think any of them holds water, really.

[Hydrad]

My main worry about no lynch is just the fact that this is RMM. so what if scum wins once and their reward is double nightkill or something. If this would be normal mafia and we knew the possibilities I would be more willing to no lynch. That said I'm not really against it. I just wanted to let you know my worries.

Also I will just say this. I'm pretty low on dice, use this info how you will.

Vote: NoLynch

[Witherweaver]

I want everyone who's against no lynch to formulate why. I'm going to bed now.

Because that would be stupid, and it gives scum a free NK and also another night to steal more dice. Right now players are hurting for dice. Come D5, it is reasonable town will have a super hard time defeating the monster.

Scum can steal dice tonight anyway. As I already said, another scum kill actually helps us. We can also deal out more dice, so it's not a big issue.

How do you know it's stealing?

[Witherweaver]

I want everyone who's against no lynch to formulate why. I'm going to bed now.

We have already caught scum. No lynch will give scum a free NK and allow them to steal more dice.

PPE: 2

The problem is this doesn't seem like Ash playing as scum.

[Witherweaver]

And how do you know they're stealing?  Or do you think Faust is scum?

[Hydrad]

I want everyone who's against no lynch to formulate why. I'm going to bed now.

Because that would be stupid, and it gives scum a free NK and also another night to steal more dice. Right now players are hurting for dice. Come D5, it is reasonable town will have a super hard time defeating the monster.

Scum can steal dice tonight anyway. As I already said, another scum kill actually helps us. We can also deal out more dice, so it's not a big issue.

How do you know it's stealing?

I don't think this is a scum slip. faust is a theif so its understandable that he will say steal. I wouldn't look to much into this.

[Witherweaver]

Yeah I'm on the fence.

I'm more concerned with the lack of precise language, because it confuses things and it makes it hard to see what we all know, what only individuals know, what are just assumptions, etc.

[Hydrad]

Personally I think ash/pps are scum still. I think ash was doing WIFOM(don't know if i'm using this term right) where he did something that doesn't make sense as scum since he felt like he was going to be in trouble otherwise. I mainly think this because I know asher is a good player and I felt like part of his losing 4 dice was to just confuse us. I do agree with him though that keeping it confusing gave us a ton of interactions and is good for the game.

Maybe I'm tunneling to hard but I am about 80% sure either ash/pps has to be scum. If neither of them are then I guess it is the WW/BA team. Unfortunately we do not have enough time to try all these possibilities.

Lets go cop ability for tonights reward!

[Witherweaver]

Gathering NPC traveling:

The Mentalist (originally controlled by Xerxes, now controlled by who is visited): Faust [N0] -> PPS [N1] -> Ashersky [N2] -> Archetype [N3]

The Dice Vendor (controlled by who is visited): Chairs [N1] -> PPS [N2] -> Archetype [N3]

The Grim Reaper (not controlled as far as we know): Faust [N1] -> X [N2] -> WW [N3]

The Love Doctor (not controlled as far as we know): X [N1] -> Ichi [N2] -> Ash [N3]

[Hydrad]

love doctor could of been box of dog N1 and GR could of been XP N2

[Witherweaver]

Yeah.  That would be coincidental, but possible.

[pingpongsam]

That hydrad is convinced me and ash are scum makes me doubt his analysis of WW/BA. I know he is at least 50% wrong and I suspect he is 100% wrong about ash/pps.

Vote: No Lynch

[liopoil]

I already claimed this: N2 I gave dice to ichi, N3 to archetype. arch has confirmed, and ichi could have confirmed.

[liopoil]

I would vote for no lynch if a pps lynch won't go through. What's holding us back is that we could need that extra town player.

[Jimmmmm]

Vote Count 4.2

ashersky (1): Archetype
pingpongsam (1):  liopoil
liopoil (1): ashersky
no lynch (3): faust, Hydrad, pingpongsam (L-2)

not voting (2): Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 26 at 11am forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 28 at 11am forum time.

Target: 4
Score: 5

[liopoil]

Worded that poorly. I mean that I am concered that we might need that extra town player, if there is a vig shot on town, or we manage to block the NK with something.

[liopoil]

Why doesn't it only take 4 to no lynch? effectively 4 people can force a no lynch.

[Witherweaver]

So, the unconfirmed roles are {PPS, Faust, Ashersky}.  Is there anything wrong with the logic that one scum must be there?  The ability that reduces players supply has to come from scum, so unless it's some factional ability (which I doubt), or some random attrition (which I also doubt), or someone has multiple abilities in their role (which I doubt even more), that ability must lie in one of these unconfirmed people.

Faust says he can confirm everyone but Ash, but I'm a little wary of this.

Note that two players in the list of three where a scum must lie are voting for No Lynch.

[liopoil]

Masons, why aren't you voting? I know BA is rereading... ww?

[Witherweaver]

Because I can't figure out who scum is.

Ash is seeming less likely, Faust is seeming more likely (the more he insists to try to lynch town players), but I have trouble seeing his previous play as scum.  PPS might be my top choice now.

[Witherweaver]

Well, I'm torn on Faust.  Trying to lynch town players is not townie, but as scum he knows that once he lynches one of us, the other is 100% confirmed town.  So me and BA die today and tonight, and then he's not going to look very good at MyLo tomorrow.

[pingpongsam]

Because I can't figure out who scum is.

Uh, that's why we are voting no lynch...

[pingpongsam]

It seems as if a confirmed role is conflated with a confirmed alignment which I believe to be an egregious oversight.

[Witherweaver]

It seems as if a confirmed role is conflated with a confirmed alignment which I believe to be an egregious oversight.

Confirmed role means you can't have the role that we know (modulo edge case) exists that no one has claimed.

[pingpongsam]

It seems as if a confirmed role is conflated with a confirmed alignment which I believe to be an egregious oversight.

Confirmed role means you can't have the role that we know (modulo edge case) exists that no one has claimed.

Gotcha, well, I can confirm my role tonight. that no one has asked me to do so strikes me as odd.

[Witherweaver]

Because I can't figure out who scum is.

Uh, that's why we are voting no lynch...

Okay so we no lynch.  It's tomorrow.

"WW, why aren't you voting"

"Because I can't figure out who scum is"

Are you going to propose no lynch again?

[Witherweaver]

It seems as if a confirmed role is conflated with a confirmed alignment which I believe to be an egregious oversight.

Confirmed role means you can't have the role that we know (modulo edge case) exists that no one has claimed.

Gotcha, well, I can confirm my role tonight. that no one has asked me to do so strikes me as odd.

I find it odd that you didn't use it last night.

[pingpongsam]

It seems as if a confirmed role is conflated with a confirmed alignment which I believe to be an egregious oversight.

Confirmed role means you can't have the role that we know (modulo edge case) exists that no one has claimed.

Gotcha, well, I can confirm my role tonight. that no one has asked me to do so strikes me as odd.

I find it odd that you didn't use it last night.

I hadn't considered confirming my role until today. Up until now I've looked at the power as something to be left alone considering it does things I can't control which would be less than ideal done to a fellow townie. I think with the remaining monsters, however it is a worthwhile risk to take.

[Witherweaver]

It seems as if a confirmed role is conflated with a confirmed alignment which I believe to be an egregious oversight.

Confirmed role means you can't have the role that we know (modulo edge case) exists that no one has claimed.

Gotcha, well, I can confirm my role tonight. that no one has asked me to do so strikes me as odd.

I find it odd that you didn't use it last night.

I hadn't considered confirming my role until today. Up until now I've looked at the power as something to be left alone considering it does things I can't control which would be less than ideal done to a fellow townie. I think with the remaining monsters, however it is a worthwhile risk to take.

Like the monster that requires rolls of 1 or 2?

[pingpongsam]

It seems as if a confirmed role is conflated with a confirmed alignment which I believe to be an egregious oversight.

Confirmed role means you can't have the role that we know (modulo edge case) exists that no one has claimed.

Gotcha, well, I can confirm my role tonight. that no one has asked me to do so strikes me as odd.

I find it odd that you didn't use it last night.

I hadn't considered confirming my role until today. Up until now I've looked at the power as something to be left alone considering it does things I can't control which would be less than ideal done to a fellow townie. I think with the remaining monsters, however it is a worthwhile risk to take.

Like the monster that requires rolls of 1 or 2?

I don't follow, that is today's monster. Unless you're saying that a d8 is statistically more likely to roll a 1 or a 2 than a d12 and that was my master plan, then you have severely underestimated what I consider a master plan.

[Witherweaver]

I'm saying you should have used your ability already.

[faust]

Because I can't figure out who scum is.

Uh, that's why we are voting no lynch...

Okay so we no lynch.  It's tomorrow.

"WW, why aren't you voting"

"Because I can't figure out who scum is"

Are you going to propose no lynch again?

Tomorrow, either all roles are confirmed, and we lynch ash. Or we caught someone lying, in which case lynch them.

[faust]

It seems as if a confirmed role is conflated with a confirmed alignment which I believe to be an egregious oversight.

Well, that's not true of course. But there's the equation confirmed fakeclaim = scum. I think it is very likely that at least one scum is lying about their role. Possibly, but not necessarily, both.

[Witherweaver]

Are you sure of this?  There's nothing that can go wrong?

[Beyond Awesome]

I honestly think the only person lying about their role is Ash. PPS immediately came to my defense when I announced my role which was the first role that had to do with dice values. PPS claimed his role before anyone else. I know WW is telling the truth. And, we know now that chairs was telling the truth. So, that leaves Ash as the most likely liar...unless somehow PPS thought of this brilliant role that he did way before other players claimed and decided to claim it when he did to look more towny.

[Beyond Awesome]

And, Faust what is your masterful? How are we going to confirm everyone's roles again?

[Hydrad]

Are you sure of this?  There's nothing that can go wrong?

I think there is a chance that something could go wrong. mainly if scum is loved and we mislynch once. or we lose vs the monster and the reward helps them with a kill or something.
But i do agree that this info will really help us find scum. Its a risk I'm willing to take but at the same time I'm still up for lynching someone today

[faust]

Just to make sure that before there's a quick-no-lynch, everyone should know what to do.

PPS should target someone he thinks will stay alive.
liopoil should probably target PPS in order not to mess with the confirmation of PPS' role.
Hydrad and BA should target the same person, ideally someone who is likely to stay alive. liopoil, maybe?
WW should target someone else than BA does, who has enough dice to prove WW's role. Probably Arch?
I target someone, not sure yet... ideas?

Does everyone mentioned here agree to this?

PPE: BA, I answered your question before seeing it.

[Beyond Awesome]

I think No Lynch is a bigger risk. We have a narrow pool of people to lynch from. We need to flip a coin and hope for the best. Every day we make this last, the worst things get for town, and as you point out Hydrad, we are hurting for dice. When we get stolen from tomorrow, we will be hurting even more. Chances are we will lose a battle against a monster and chances are it will be a reward that benefits scum immensely like another NK. I feel the risk of a no lynch is just too big. Oh, and I am still doing my reread.

PPE

[faust]

Clarification: Whoever PPS targets can confirm his role.
Hydrad and liopoil can confirm BA's role.
liopoil can confirm Hydrad's role.
Arch can confirm WW's role.

[faust]

I think No Lynch is a bigger risk. We have a narrow pool of people to lynch from. We need to flip a coin and hope for the best. Every day we make this last, the worst things get for town, and as you point out Hydrad, we are hurting for dice. When we get stolen from tomorrow, we will be hurting even more. Chances are we will lose a battle against a monster and chances are it will be a reward that benefits scum immensely like another NK. I feel the risk of a no lynch is just too big. Oh, and I am still doing my reread.

PPE

I think rewards and punishments are roughly the same in terms of power. We haven't seen a reward that prevents a NK (closest thing was N1's reward), so I really doubt there will be an extra NK.

[Witherweaver]

Just to make sure that before there's a quick-no-lynch, everyone should know what to do.

PPS should target someone he thinks will stay alive.
liopoil should probably target PPS in order not to mess with the confirmation of PPS' role.
Hydrad and BA should target the same person, ideally someone who is likely to stay alive. liopoil, maybe?
WW should target someone else than BA does, who has enough dice to prove WW's role. Probably Arch?
I target someone, not sure yet... ideas?

Does everyone mentioned here agree to this?

PPE: BA, I answered your question before seeing it.

That doesn't even confirm mine.  Arch could just coincidentally not roll 10,11, 12. 

[faust]

Just to make sure that before there's a quick-no-lynch, everyone should know what to do.

PPS should target someone he thinks will stay alive.
liopoil should probably target PPS in order not to mess with the confirmation of PPS' role.
Hydrad and BA should target the same person, ideally someone who is likely to stay alive. liopoil, maybe?
WW should target someone else than BA does, who has enough dice to prove WW's role. Probably Arch?
I target someone, not sure yet... ideas?

Does everyone mentioned here agree to this?

PPE: BA, I answered your question before seeing it.

That doesn't even confirm mine.  Arch could just coincidentally not roll 10,11, 12.

Yes, but it CAN prove you wrong, which is pretty much all we need.

[Hydrad]

Clarification: Whoever PPS targets can confirm his role.
Hydrad and liopoil can confirm BA's role.
liopoil can confirm Hydrad's role.
Arch can confirm WW's role.

the only one I see an issue here is arch comfirming WW. the only way to confirm that is by rolling dice and see that no 10-11-12 shows up right? if hes out of dice or doesn't roll that many it could lead us in a dangerous road. But i guess there is still a risk for WW if he is lying.

PPE:2
Also i think you main BA will confirm my role?

[Witherweaver]

But it won't.  And once it doesn't, how do I have any idea you're not going to keep on this silly line accusation?

Regardless, you said we can confirm everyone's roles, and now you're admitting that we can't.

[Beyond Awesome]

A no lynch is a bad, bad, bad idea. And, I stand by that.

Also, I think WW, Hydrad, and I should all target you Faust if we are going to go with your master plan.

[Witherweaver]

Hydrad what does your role do again?

[Hydrad]

actually I'm starting to not like nolynch due to scum could do something like kill arche. now that instantly casts suspicion on WW/BA and how do we figure out if they killed him so that we wouldn't find out. or that arche is killed to cast suspicion? We would be right back where we started I think.

PPE:2

[faust]

Clarification: Whoever PPS targets can confirm his role.
Hydrad and liopoil can confirm BA's role.
liopoil can confirm Hydrad's role.
Arch can confirm WW's role.

the only one I see an issue here is arch comfirming WW. the only way to confirm that is by rolling dice and see that no 10-11-12 shows up right? if hes out of dice or doesn't roll that many it could lead us in a dangerous road. But i guess there is still a risk for WW if he is lying.

PPE:2
Also i think you main BA will confirm my role?

Arch got visited by the Dice Vendor, and targeted by liopoil. I think he is likely the one with the most dice among all living players.

And no, I meant you confirming BA. Everyone thinks you're town, so it's less important to confirm you. But BA can claim his result first, and then you can tell us whether it was the number you blocked.

PPE: 4

[Hydrad]

Hydrad what does your role do again?

forbid a number for the rest of the game for that person

[Witherweaver]

actually I'm starting to not like nolynch due to scum could do something like kill arche. now that instantly casts suspicion on WW/BA and how do we figure out if they killed him so that we wouldn't find out. or that arche is killed to cast suspicion? We would be right back where we started I think.

PPE:2

Kind of my point.

[faust]

actually I'm starting to not like nolynch due to scum could do something like kill arche. now that instantly casts suspicion on WW/BA and how do we figure out if they killed him so that we wouldn't find out. or that arche is killed to cast suspicion? We would be right back where we started I think.

PPE:2

If scum kills among Arch/lio and and you or me, that's already good I think, then they're getting rid of our suspects for us.

[Witherweaver]

Hydrad what does your role do again?

forbid a number for the rest of the game for that person

So why would Hydrad and I target different people for the sake of confirming?  He forbids 1, I knock out the top 3.

[Hydrad]

unvote

for now until we figure this all out.

[faust]

A no lynch is a bad, bad, bad idea. And, I stand by that.

Also, I think WW, Hydrad, and I should all target you Faust if we are going to go with your master plan.

And then I get killed, and what then? No, bad idea.

[faust]

By the way, I can investigate PPS or ashersky tonight. Just in case you all forgot.

[Hydrad]

Hydrad what does your role do again?

forbid a number for the rest of the game for that person

So why would Hydrad and I target different people for the sake of confirming?  He forbids 1, I knock out the top 3.

because you and BA are together and could lie about the results. BA confirming what you have done doesn't help us either way I think

PPE

[Witherweaver]

A no lynch is a bad, bad, bad idea. And, I stand by that.

Also, I think WW, Hydrad, and I should all target you Faust if we are going to go with your master plan.

And then I get killed, and what then? No, bad idea.

Why would you get killed?  You're  driving the town lynching train.

[Hydrad]

By the way, I can investigate PPS or ashersky tonight. Just in case you all forgot.

hmm well this basically makes it so you are going to die... so i guess it works now?

[faust]

By the way, I can investigate PPS or ashersky tonight. Just in case you all forgot.

hmm well this basically makes it so you are going to die... so i guess it works now?

Yeah, exactly.

[Witherweaver]

By the way, I can investigate PPS or ashersky tonight. Just in case you all forgot.

.. This is Mentalist?  I thought it let you investigate the alignment of the person that sent it.  It lets you buy a one-shot cop?

[Beyond Awesome]

By the way, I can investigate PPS or ashersky tonight. Just in case you all forgot.

Okay, so how about we lynch either Ash or PPS and then if one of them flips town, you investigate WW or I which makes a hell of a lot more sense than a No Lynch.

PPE: 2

[faust]

By the way, I can investigate PPS or ashersky tonight. Just in case you all forgot.

.. This is Mentalist?  I thought it let you investigate the alignment of the person that sent it.  It lets you buy a one-shot cop?

It lets you investigate the alignment of any player he previously visited.

[faust]

By the way, I can investigate PPS or ashersky tonight. Just in case you all forgot.

Okay, so how about we lynch either Ash or PPS and then if one of them flips town, you investigate WW or I which makes a hell of a lot more sense than a No Lynch.

PPE: 2

I cannot investigate you. Also, this might be MyLo if scum is Loved.

[Witherweaver]

By the way, I can investigate PPS or ashersky tonight. Just in case you all forgot.

.. This is Mentalist?  I thought it let you investigate the alignment of the person that sent it.  It lets you buy a one-shot cop?

It lets you investigate the alignment of any player he previously visited.

I was under the impression this happened when it was sent to you, for people he had visited before.  You're saying you can buy the shot and use it whenever?

[Beyond Awesome]

By the way, I can investigate PPS or ashersky tonight. Just in case you all forgot.

Okay, so how about we lynch either Ash or PPS and then if one of them flips town, you investigate WW or I which makes a hell of a lot more sense than a No Lynch.

PPE: 2

I cannot investigate you. Also, this might be MyLo if scum is Loved.

Okay, we lynch Ash, you investigate PPS if Ash turns up town. Actually, investigate PPS no matter what.

PPE

[faust]

By the way, I can investigate PPS or ashersky tonight. Just in case you all forgot.

.. This is Mentalist?  I thought it let you investigate the alignment of the person that sent it.  It lets you buy a one-shot cop?

It lets you investigate the alignment of any player he previously visited.

I was under the impression this happened when it was sent to you, for people he had visited before.  You're saying you can buy the shot and use it whenever?

No, but I hope Arch is intelligent enough to send him back to me.

[Witherweaver]

I think I want to lynch PPS above Ash now.

[faust]

By the way, I can investigate PPS or ashersky tonight. Just in case you all forgot.

Okay, so how about we lynch either Ash or PPS and then if one of them flips town, you investigate WW or I which makes a hell of a lot more sense than a No Lynch.

PPE: 2

I cannot investigate you. Also, this might be MyLo if scum is Loved.

Okay, we lynch Ash, you investigate PPS if Ash turns up town. Actually, investigate PPS no matter what.

PPE

Again, we may be at MyLo. I'm not going to just lynch someone.

[Beyond Awesome]

We are going to lynch someone today. We have good odds between PPS and Ash.

[faust]

The fact that BA and WW are both arguing heavily against no lynch makes me more confident that they are panicking scum.

[Witherweaver]

The fact that BA and WW are both arguing heavily against no lynch makes me more confident that they are panicking scum.

What would we possibly have to panick about?

[Beyond Awesome]

Dude, we lynch Ash or PPS, you cop the either and then you will know if we are scum or not.

[Beyond Awesome]

Why can't we go with the best plan which is lynch between Ash and PPS, Arch sends the Grim Reaper to Faust. Faust cops the remaining player whether or not Ash or PPS turned up scum or town. That's a better idea than giving scum another NK, making us lose more dice, and giving us less of a chance at winning against the next monsters.

[faust]

The fact that BA and WW are both arguing heavily against no lynch makes me more confident that they are panicking scum.

What would we possibly have to panick about?

Be outed as liars tomorrow?

[Beyond Awesome]

The fact that BA and WW are both arguing heavily against no lynch makes me more confident that they are panicking scum.

What would we possibly have to panick about?

Be outed as liars tomorrow?

I'm not worried about that.

[faust]

Why can't we go with the best plan which is lynch between Ash and PPS, Arch sends the Grim Reaper to Faust. Faust cops the remaining player whether or not Ash or PPS turned up scum or town. That's a better idea than giving scum another NK, making us lose more dice, and giving us less of a chance at winning against the next monsters.
[/quote

MyLo MyLo MyLo MYLO MYLO MYLO MYLO

[Beyond Awesome]

Faust, if you really are town, you sure are not acting like it.

[Hydrad]

Faust, if you really are town, you sure are not acting like it.

insteresting. maybe its because I don't know his meta but I get a completely town vibe from his.

[Witherweaver]

The fact that BA and WW are both arguing heavily against no lynch makes me more confident that they are panicking scum.

What would we possibly have to panick about?

Be outed as liars tomorrow?

That can't happen.

[faust]

Faust, if you really are town, you sure are not acting like it.

insteresting. maybe its because I don't know his meta but I get a completely town vibe from his.

BA doesn't know my my meta any better than you do.

[Beyond Awesome]

Faust, if you really are town, you sure are not acting like it.

insteresting. maybe its because I don't know his meta but I get a completely town vibe from his.

BA doesn't know my my meta any better than you do.

So are you saying Hydrad should not get a town vibe from your meta?

[pingpongsam]

I agree the BA/WW resistance almost seems linked as if they might be the scum team. If one resisted while the other did not, hey, whatever. Both are adamant we must lynch and very recently both were not voting.

[Witherweaver]

Why can't we go with the best plan which is lynch between Ash and PPS, Arch sends the Grim Reaper to Faust. Faust cops the remaining player whether or not Ash or PPS turned up scum or town. That's a better idea than giving scum another NK, making us lose more dice, and giving us less of a chance at winning against the next monsters.

Mentalist, not Grim Reaper.

[Witherweaver]

I agree the BA/WW resistance almost seems linked as if they might be the scum team. If one resisted while the other did not, hey, whatever. Both are adamant we must lynch and very recently both were not voting.

Yeah, it's like we're linked in some way, as if there were some common connection between us....

[Beyond Awesome]

I agree the BA/WW resistance almost seems linked as if they might be the scum team. If one resisted while the other did not, hey, whatever. Both are adamant we must lynch and very recently both were not voting.

I am not voting right now because I am still rereading.

[Witherweaver]

I agree the BA/WW resistance almost seems linked as if they might be the scum team. If one resisted while the other did not, hey, whatever. Both are adamant we must lynch and very recently both were not voting.

Classical scum hedging here, by the way.

[faust]

Faust, if you really are town, you sure are not acting like it.

insteresting. maybe its because I don't know his meta but I get a completely town vibe from his.

BA doesn't know my my meta any better than you do.

So are you saying Hydrad should not get a town vibe from your meta?

Yes. That's EXACTLY what I'm saying.

*sigh*

[pingpongsam]

Vote: witherweaver

I'll hammer the no lynch if needed.

[Witherweaver]

...

[faust]

Vote: witherweaver

I'll hammer the no lynch if needed.

Glad to see you come around

Still think the no lynch is safer.

[Witherweaver]

This is terrible.

[faust]

This is terrible.

No lynch?

Will you follow my plan if we no lynch?

[pingpongsam]

This is terrible.

If you are town then labeling an astute observation as scum hedging is terrible. If you're scum, well, that wasn't the brightest play, either.
Of either alignment, when you flip me town you likely get nailed next, again not so great. So, I agree, this is terrible depending on what exactly it is we are qualifying as "this".

[Witherweaver]

This is terrible.

No lynch?

Will you follow my plan if we no lynch?

The way the day going is terrible.  Voting for me or BA at all is terrible, and trying to convince people to do so is terrible.  It's only hurting us.

Yes, I'll use my ability and coordinate with Hydrad and BA.  I'm more or less operating under the assumption that Hydrad is town, though that could be somewhat dangerous.

I prefer not to no lynch, the large reason being that I don't trust you at all right now.  And I'm sure one of {You, PPS, Ash} is scum, so I want to lynch there.  And everyone else should, too.

[Witherweaver]

This is terrible.

If you are town then labeling an astute observation as scum hedging is terrible. If you're scum, well, that wasn't the brightest play, either.
Of either alignment, when you flip me town you likely get nailed next, again not so great. So, I agree, this is terrible depending on what exactly it is we are qualifying as "this".

It was not an astute observation, and it was very hedgey.

[pingpongsam]

The only people sure of anyone else's alignment are scum. People unsure of who is what alignment seem interested in no lynch. Certainty of alignment at this point is practically a scumtell.

[Witherweaver]

It's obvious scum hedging.  Laying out a sketchy reason that makes it seem justified to judge for us in the future (and, oh, hey! you did!), while adding enough uncertainty to absolve yourself of guilt when we flip town.

[Witherweaver]

The only people sure of anyone else's alignment are scum. People unsure of who is what alignment seem interested in no lynch. Certainty of alignment at this point is practically a scumtell.

Or, hey, when I get a message from Jimmm that says this dude is town, I believe it.

[Beyond Awesome]

NO LYNCH IS NOT HAPPENING!

I am certain that Ash or PPS is scum. We have 50/50 odds just between those two players. We are going to lynch there.

PPE: 3

[Witherweaver]

Fine, Vote: PPS

[pingpongsam]

This is terrible.

If you are town then labeling an astute observation as scum hedging is terrible. If you're scum, well, that wasn't the brightest play, either.
Of either alignment, when you flip me town you likely get nailed next, again not so great. So, I agree, this is terrible depending on what exactly it is we are qualifying as "this".

It was not an astute observation, and it was very hedgey.

It was quite an accurate assessment so yes, it was astute, whether you liked it or not. The fact is BA/WW were/are resistant to no lynch, both were/are not voting despite everyone else having a vote somewhere. That there might be a link is a worthwhile notion. By opening myself up to other possibilities than the limited few I had before I am doing the exact opposite of hedging.

[Witherweaver]

This is terrible.

If you are town then labeling an astute observation as scum hedging is terrible. If you're scum, well, that wasn't the brightest play, either.
Of either alignment, when you flip me town you likely get nailed next, again not so great. So, I agree, this is terrible depending on what exactly it is we are qualifying as "this".

It was not an astute observation, and it was very hedgey.

It was quite an accurate assessment so yes, it was astute, whether you liked it or not. The fact is BA/WW were/are resistant to no lynch, both were/are not voting despite everyone else having a vote somewhere. That there might be a link is a worthwhile notion. By opening myself up to other possibilities than the limited few I had before I am doing the exact opposite of hedging.

There is a link.  We're Masons. 

[pingpongsam]

Saying scum must be within 2 or 3 people is hedging. At least in my dictionary it is defined as conditionally limiting quantities.

That BA/WW are united in this adamantly is plain to see and demonizing me for saying it is just silly on its face.

[pingpongsam]

This is terrible.

If you are town then labeling an astute observation as scum hedging is terrible. If you're scum, well, that wasn't the brightest play, either.
Of either alignment, when you flip me town you likely get nailed next, again not so great. So, I agree, this is terrible depending on what exactly it is we are qualifying as "this".

It was not an astute observation, and it was very hedgey.

It was quite an accurate assessment so yes, it was astute, whether you liked it or not. The fact is BA/WW were/are resistant to no lynch, both were/are not voting despite everyone else having a vote somewhere. That there might be a link is a worthwhile notion. By opening myself up to other possibilities than the limited few I had before I am doing the exact opposite of hedging.

There is a link.  We're Masons.

Masons do not by default resort to the exact same ideas of who must be scum and how the end of the day must go down.

[Witherweaver]

Saying scum must be within 2 or 3 people is hedging. At least in my dictionary it is defined as conditionally limiting quantities.

That BA/WW are united in this adamantly is plain to see and demonizing me for saying it is just silly on its face.

There are three people whose claims are unverified.  Scum has an ability that no one has claimed.  A scum must therefore lie in this set of three people.

What is your problem with this rationale?

[faust]

NO LYNCH IS NOT HAPPENING!

I am certain that Ash or PPS is scum. We have 50/50 odds just between those two players. We are going to lynch there.

PPE: 3

And 100% are worse than 50%?

[Witherweaver]

Saying scum must be within 2 or 3 people is hedging. At least in my dictionary it is defined as conditionally limiting quantities.

That BA/WW are united in this adamantly is plain to see and demonizing me for saying it is just silly on its face.

Hedging means putting yourself in a position to benefit (or mitigate damage) regardless of some unknown outcome.  Here, you don't know if I'll get lynched, but you want yourself to be in a position that looks good whether or not I do.

[faust]

Saying scum must be within 2 or 3 people is hedging. At least in my dictionary it is defined as conditionally limiting quantities.

That BA/WW are united in this adamantly is plain to see and demonizing me for saying it is just silly on its face.

There are three people whose claims are unverified.  Scum has an ability that no one has claimed.  A scum must therefore lie in this set of three people.

What is your problem with this rationale?

We can confirm who it is tomorrow. What is your problem with that rationale? 1/3 is not good enough in a MyLo situation.

[Witherweaver]

Saying scum must be within 2 or 3 people is hedging. At least in my dictionary it is defined as conditionally limiting quantities.

That BA/WW are united in this adamantly is plain to see and demonizing me for saying it is just silly on its face.

There are three people whose claims are unverified.  Scum has an ability that no one has claimed.  A scum must therefore lie in this set of three people.

What is your problem with this rationale?

We can confirm who it is tomorrow. What is your problem with that rationale? 1/3 is not good enough in a MyLo situation.

I'm not so convinced in the confirmation.  What happens if a confirming pair is the two scum?

[faust]

Saying scum must be within 2 or 3 people is hedging. At least in my dictionary it is defined as conditionally limiting quantities.

That BA/WW are united in this adamantly is plain to see and demonizing me for saying it is just silly on its face.

There are three people whose claims are unverified.  Scum has an ability that no one has claimed.  A scum must therefore lie in this set of three people.

What is your problem with this rationale?

We can confirm who it is tomorrow. What is your problem with that rationale? 1/3 is not good enough in a MyLo situation.

I'm not so convinced in the confirmation.  What happens if a confirming pair is the two scum?

This can happen, yes. But it can only happen with PPS' confirmation. And I can investigate PPS. If I die, well, you have to figure out how likely a PPS/whoever he targeted pairing is.

[Hydrad]

I think I've already found a problem with how i'm playing this.

I'm playing this game thinking how everyone should play logically. The problem is I think people are really good at tricking straight logical players.

I'm going to need to rethink from different angles and try to not only think of what logically makes sense.

[Witherweaver]

Or we can just lynch PPS today~!

[pingpongsam]

Saying scum must be within 2 or 3 people is hedging. At least in my dictionary it is defined as conditionally limiting quantities.

That BA/WW are united in this adamantly is plain to see and demonizing me for saying it is just silly on its face.

There are three people whose claims are unverified.  Scum has an ability that no one has claimed.  A scum must therefore lie in this set of three people.

What is your problem with this rationale?

It's a great rationale. Except for the bit where you jump to killing me. I can be verified. And I am not convinced that verifying everyone magically finds 2 scum or even 1 for that matter.

PPE: 7

[Beyond Awesome]

This is terrible.

If you are town then labeling an astute observation as scum hedging is terrible. If you're scum, well, that wasn't the brightest play, either.
Of either alignment, when you flip me town you likely get nailed next, again not so great. So, I agree, this is terrible depending on what exactly it is we are qualifying as "this".

It was not an astute observation, and it was very hedgey.

It was quite an accurate assessment so yes, it was astute, whether you liked it or not. The fact is BA/WW were/are resistant to no lynch, both were/are not voting despite everyone else having a vote somewhere. That there might be a link is a worthwhile notion. By opening myself up to other possibilities than the limited few I had before I am doing the exact opposite of hedging.

There is a link.  We're Masons.

Masons do not by default resort to the exact same ideas of who must be scum and how the end of the day must go down.

This is true. At the moment, I actually think Ash is the more likely to be scum over you. I even think lio is more likely to be scum over you, but he has a verified role so we aren't lynching him today.

[Archetype]

Just to make sure that before there's a quick-no-lynch, everyone should know what to do.

PPS should target someone he thinks will stay alive.
liopoil should probably target PPS in order not to mess with the confirmation of PPS' role.
Hydrad and BA should target the same person, ideally someone who is likely to stay alive. liopoil, maybe?
WW should target someone else than BA does, who has enough dice to prove WW's role. Probably Arch?
I target someone, not sure yet... ideas?

Does everyone mentioned here agree to this?

PPE: BA, I answered your question before seeing it.

That doesn't even confirm mine.  Arch could just coincidentally not roll 10,11, 12.

WW, do NOT target me. As long as I don't have to roll today (and I'm pretty sure I won't have to), I'll be able to play 2 dice tomorrow and have my however many I rolled doubled. Taking out the 10, 11, 12 would seriously suck since I'd have the greatest chance of rolling and playing those numbers.

I also fear that I may be the NK regardless of whether we lynch or no lynch.

[Witherweaver]

Saying scum must be within 2 or 3 people is hedging. At least in my dictionary it is defined as conditionally limiting quantities.

That BA/WW are united in this adamantly is plain to see and demonizing me for saying it is just silly on its face.

There are three people whose claims are unverified.  Scum has an ability that no one has claimed.  A scum must therefore lie in this set of three people.

What is your problem with this rationale?

It's a great rationale. Except for the bit where you jump to killing me. I can be verified. And I am not convinced that verifying everyone magically finds 2 scum or even 1 for that matter.

PPE: 7

So then who of {Faust, Ash} is better?

[Witherweaver]

Just to make sure that before there's a quick-no-lynch, everyone should know what to do.

PPS should target someone he thinks will stay alive.
liopoil should probably target PPS in order not to mess with the confirmation of PPS' role.
Hydrad and BA should target the same person, ideally someone who is likely to stay alive. liopoil, maybe?
WW should target someone else than BA does, who has enough dice to prove WW's role. Probably Arch?
I target someone, not sure yet... ideas?

Does everyone mentioned here agree to this?

PPE: BA, I answered your question before seeing it.

That doesn't even confirm mine.  Arch could just coincidentally not roll 10,11, 12.

WW, do NOT target me. As long as I don't have to roll today (and I'm pretty sure I won't have to), I'll be able to play 2 dice tomorrow and have my however many I rolled doubled. Taking out the 10, 11, 12 would seriously suck since I'd have the greatest chance of rolling and playing those numbers.

I also fear that I may be the NK regardless of whether we lynch or no lynch.

Good point.

[Hydrad]

unless me and ba swap and hit arche and WW goes lio? does that work?

[Witherweaver]

unless me and ba swap and hit arche and WW goes lio? does that work?

Might as well cut out 1 from Arch's rolls; we shouldn't really need those any more.  (Okay, we have the odds-only monster, but cutting out lowest odd should still be beneficial, I think.)

I'm guessing for the dragon we want to start middish?

[Hydrad]

unless me and ba swap and hit arche and WW goes lio? does that work?

Might as well cut out 1 from Arch's rolls; we shouldn't really need those any more.  (Okay, we have the odds-only monster, but cutting out lowest odd should still be beneficial, I think.)

I'm guessing for the dragon we want to start middish?

I will decide a number but I can't tell you or BA what they are as that ruins the point.

[Archetype]

I want everyone who's against no lynch to formulate why. I'm going to bed now.

We have already caught scum. No lynch will give scum a free NK and allow them to steal more dice.

PPE: 2

Do you still think that you "caught scum"?

Yes. Ash is the most likely candidate to be a dice destroyer. However, I have no clue why scum!ash would even bring up the Love Doctor the first place. I still like my "framing other people with dice stealing then trying to step out of it" theory, but it seems too fragile for a ploy that scum!ash would do.

[Witherweaver]

unless me and ba swap and hit arche and WW goes lio? does that work?

Might as well cut out 1 from Arch's rolls; we shouldn't really need those any more.  (Okay, we have the odds-only monster, but cutting out lowest odd should still be beneficial, I think.)

I'm guessing for the dragon we want to start middish?

I will decide a number but I can't tell you or BA what they are as that ruins the point.

Well, yes, good point.

[Witherweaver]

I want everyone who's against no lynch to formulate why. I'm going to bed now.

We have already caught scum. No lynch will give scum a free NK and allow them to steal more dice.

PPE: 2

Do you still think that you "caught scum"?

Yes. Ash is the most likely candidate to be a dice destroyer. However, I have no clue why scum!ash would even bring up the Love Doctor the first place. I still like my "framing other people with dice stealing then trying to step out of it" theory, but it seems too fragile for a ploy that scum!ash would do.

I was liking that theory, but sometime last night I was thinking over things, and his play over all seems more like Ash being purposefully difficult rather than scum.

[Beyond Awesome]

unless me and ba swap and hit arche and WW goes lio? does that work?

Might as well cut out 1 from Arch's rolls; we shouldn't really need those any more.  (Okay, we have the odds-only monster, but cutting out lowest odd should still be beneficial, I think.)

I'm guessing for the dragon we want to start middish?

I will decide a number but I can't tell you or BA what they are as that ruins the point.

I targeted Mail-Mi/Arch N1. I still want to target a player I have not already targeted in case something wonky comes up with their dice aside from the number you take out.

[Beyond Awesome]

I want everyone who's against no lynch to formulate why. I'm going to bed now.

We have already caught scum. No lynch will give scum a free NK and allow them to steal more dice.

PPE: 2

Do you still think that you "caught scum"?

Yes. Ash is the most likely candidate to be a dice destroyer. However, I have no clue why scum!ash would even bring up the Love Doctor the first place. I still like my "framing other people with dice stealing then trying to step out of it" theory, but it seems too fragile for a ploy that scum!ash would do.

I was liking that theory, but sometime last night I was thinking over things, and his play over all seems more like Ash being purposefully difficult rather than scum.

Yes, but I think that was his scum plan. I think he knew he was likely going to be lynched and he needed to figure a way out of it.

[Witherweaver]

I want everyone who's against no lynch to formulate why. I'm going to bed now.

We have already caught scum. No lynch will give scum a free NK and allow them to steal more dice.

PPE: 2

Do you still think that you "caught scum"?

Yes. Ash is the most likely candidate to be a dice destroyer. However, I have no clue why scum!ash would even bring up the Love Doctor the first place. I still like my "framing other people with dice stealing then trying to step out of it" theory, but it seems too fragile for a ploy that scum!ash would do.

I was liking that theory, but sometime last night I was thinking over things, and his play over all seems more like Ash being purposefully difficult rather than scum.

Yes, but I think that was his scum plan. I think he knew he was likely going to be lynched and he needed to figure a way out of it.

This seems like a pretty crazy plan, even from Ash.  His way to get out of it was to act so crazy and use a "this would be terrible for me to do as scum even though it benefits town in no way" excuse to get towncred?

[Beyond Awesome]

I want everyone who's against no lynch to formulate why. I'm going to bed now.

We have already caught scum. No lynch will give scum a free NK and allow them to steal more dice.

PPE: 2

Do you still think that you "caught scum"?

Yes. Ash is the most likely candidate to be a dice destroyer. However, I have no clue why scum!ash would even bring up the Love Doctor the first place. I still like my "framing other people with dice stealing then trying to step out of it" theory, but it seems too fragile for a ploy that scum!ash would do.

I was liking that theory, but sometime last night I was thinking over things, and his play over all seems more like Ash being purposefully difficult rather than scum.

Yes, but I think that was his scum plan. I think he knew he was likely going to be lynched and he needed to figure a way out of it.

This seems like a pretty crazy plan, even from Ash.  His way to get out of it was to act so crazy and use a "this would be terrible for me to do as scum even though it benefits town in no way" excuse to get towncred?

Why not? This is Ash, we are talking about?

[Witherweaver]

Of course, him thinking he could be the night kill when he was on top of everyone's list to lynch (recall the QT discussion, everyone agreed on Ash) is pretty poorly justified.

[Witherweaver]

Ash's plans are usually a little bit, more, uh.. I don't know, less WIFOM and more based on setup and roles.

[Archetype]

Alright. I'm 90% sure that the two scum are in {faust, PPS, liopoil, ashersky}. 5% chance that Hydrad is scum and 5% chance that BA/WW really are scum. Looking at that, we have 5 options today:

Lynch faust: With his association with ash, he's moved up in my scum rankings. However, he has enough dice to perform an investigation for us if he's Town, or lie about one if he's scum. There is some WIFOM whether or not scum will kill him if he's Town and whether or not I'll actually give it to him. Plus, he's very unlikely to be the dice destroyer. Not an option.

Lynch PPS: What I want to do tbh. Has the most likely pairings and has played a very scummy game while not coming under too much scrutiny.

Lynch liopoil: Leaving him alive will force him to pump more dice into circulation. He has laid very low... so low that he's flown relatively under the radar. However, the only paring that really makes sense starting with him is with ash because he's very unlikely to be the dice destroyer and ash is. Not an option.

Lynch ash: Hurst my ego a bit, but I'm less certain that he's scum. I still think that he could be the dice destroyer, but the whole ploy with the Love Doctor just seems so unlike ash and makes no sense if he's scum. Him possibly being the dice destroyer puts him as a good lynch option.

No Lynch: I smell something fishy with faust's no lynch plan. I agree with BA that there's no reason to no lynch if we have 2 perfect scum candidates and something could easily go wrong depending on who scum kill. Still, I'd rather do this than lynch liopoil or faust.


I'm going to vote PPS, but I want to check the vote count first. PPE: 7

[Archetype]

Of course, him thinking he could be the night kill when he was on top of everyone's list to lynch (recall the QT discussion, everyone agreed on Ash) is pretty poorly justified.

Totally agree with this. I went into today with a scumread on ash from his actions the previous day.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, Faust, here is what I am thinking.

If WW and I are scum, we are screwed no matter what and nothing we do will change anything. So, lynching between Ash and PPS makes the most sense.

So, we lynch one of them. You use the Mentalist to cop the one who wasn't lynched. Hydrad targets a player. I target the player Hydrad targets. I say what number is missing and Hydrad confirms that, thus confirming my power. WW targets someone with plenty of dice. That person rolls their dice and confirms WW's power. How is that? If we are scum, we are caught tomorrow no matter what whether we no lynch or lynch today. So, honestly, lynching has to be the better choice because I know WW and I are town, and it is better to take our chances and lynch between Ash and PPS than to give scum another NK.

PPE: 3

[Archetype]

Looks like liopoil, WW, and I are the only ones of PPS's wagon.

Vote: PPS

[Hydrad]

Looks like liopoil, WW, and I are the only ones of PPS's wagon.

Vote: PPS

i would lynch PPS also. just trying to rethink a couple things but if needed I would be willing to hammer

[Beyond Awesome]

Looks like liopoil, WW, and I are the only ones of PPS's wagon.

Vote: PPS

i would lynch PPS also. just trying to rethink a couple things but if needed I would be willing to hammer

Okay, if you hammer PPS can you target Ash with your dice removing ability?

[Witherweaver]

Guys, talk about targets in the QT

[Witherweaver]

Well, I don't know if it matters.

[Beyond Awesome]

Looks like liopoil, WW, and I are the only ones of PPS's wagon.

Vote: PPS

i would lynch PPS also. just trying to rethink a couple things but if needed I would be willing to hammer

Okay, if you hammer PPS can you target Ash with your dice removing ability?

Actually, Ash might not be a good target if Faust cops Ash with the Mentalist

[Beyond Awesome]

Ash's plans are usually a little bit, more, uh.. I don't know, less WIFOM and more based on setup and roles.

Also, Ash could have lied, actually became permanently loved and made a BS story about using all of his dice for WIFOM reasons so that he wouldn't get lynched today and later on become unlynchable.

[Witherweaver]

Ash's plans are usually a little bit, more, uh.. I don't know, less WIFOM and more based on setup and roles.

Also, Ash could have lied, actually became permanently loved and made a BS story about using all of his dice for WIFOM reasons so that he wouldn't get lynched today and later on become unlynchable.

Yes, but why bring up the Lovedoctor at all today?

[Beyond Awesome]

Ash's plans are usually a little bit, more, uh.. I don't know, less WIFOM and more based on setup and roles.

Also, Ash could have lied, actually became permanently loved and made a BS story about using all of his dice for WIFOM reasons so that he wouldn't get lynched today and later on become unlynchable.

Yes, but why bring up the Lovedoctor at all today?

That is a good point. I have no idea.

[Archetype]

Another thing that rubs me the wrong way is that ash seems totally aware about all the WIFOM surrounding the Love Doctor thing.

[pingpongsam]

With all this emphasis on confirmed roles why is the plan consolidating around lynching the guy we can confirm and leaving alive the VT that cannot be confirmed?

[Beyond Awesome]

With all this emphasis on confirmed roles why is the plan consolidating around lynching the guy we can confirm and leaving alive the VT that cannot be confirmed?

Hey! Ash is my preferred lynch choice. But, I won't deny that you have been pretty scummy.

[Beyond Awesome]

With all this emphasis on confirmed roles why is the plan consolidating around lynching the guy we can confirm and leaving alive the VT that cannot be confirmed?

Also, Ash can be just as confirmed as you with the Mentalist.

[Witherweaver]

I think he would have had to assume he'd be lynched anyway, so he brought up the Lovedoctor so that he could make the kind of explanation he did later down the road.  But that's a hard plan to buy.

[pingpongsam]

With all this emphasis on confirmed roles why is the plan consolidating around lynching the guy we can confirm and leaving alive the VT that cannot be confirmed?

Also, Ash can be just as confirmed as you with the Mentalist.

How so? I specified who I sent the Mentalist to and it was confirmed as well.

[Beyond Awesome]

With all this emphasis on confirmed roles why is the plan consolidating around lynching the guy we can confirm and leaving alive the VT that cannot be confirmed?

Also, Ash can be just as confirmed as you with the Mentalist.

How so? I specified who I sent the Mentalist to and it was confirmed as well.

Faust claims he can cop someone with Mentalist.

[Beyond Awesome]

Ash's plans are usually a little bit, more, uh.. I don't know, less WIFOM and more based on setup and roles.

Also, Ash could have lied, actually became permanently loved and made a BS story about using all of his dice for WIFOM reasons so that he wouldn't get lynched today and later on become unlynchable.

Yes, but why bring up the Lovedoctor at all today?

Also, can you explain to me if Ash were town why he would do what he did? What is the benefit of town Ash to do what he did and what is the benefit of scum Ash to do what he did?

[Witherweaver]

Ash's plans are usually a little bit, more, uh.. I don't know, less WIFOM and more based on setup and roles.

Also, Ash could have lied, actually became permanently loved and made a BS story about using all of his dice for WIFOM reasons so that he wouldn't get lynched today and later on become unlynchable.

Yes, but why bring up the Lovedoctor at all today?

Also, can you explain to me if Ash were town why he would do what he did? What is the benefit of town Ash to do what he did and what is the benefit of scum Ash to do what he did?

Maybe he just wanted to troll some people for a while?

[Hydrad]

Ash's plans are usually a little bit, more, uh.. I don't know, less WIFOM and more based on setup and roles.

Also, Ash could have lied, actually became permanently loved and made a BS story about using all of his dice for WIFOM reasons so that he wouldn't get lynched today and later on become unlynchable.

Yes, but why bring up the Lovedoctor at all today?

Also, can you explain to me if Ash were town why he would do what he did? What is the benefit of town Ash to do what he did and what is the benefit of scum Ash to do what he did?

He got reactions. although it was frustrating I will admit having those reactions can help finding scum.

[faust]

Just to make sure that before there's a quick-no-lynch, everyone should know what to do.

PPS should target someone he thinks will stay alive.
liopoil should probably target PPS in order not to mess with the confirmation of PPS' role.
Hydrad and BA should target the same person, ideally someone who is likely to stay alive. liopoil, maybe?
WW should target someone else than BA does, who has enough dice to prove WW's role. Probably Arch?
I target someone, not sure yet... ideas?

Does everyone mentioned here agree to this?

PPE: BA, I answered your question before seeing it.

That doesn't even confirm mine.  Arch could just coincidentally not roll 10,11, 12.

WW, do NOT target me. As long as I don't have to roll today (and I'm pretty sure I won't have to), I'll be able to play 2 dice tomorrow and have my however many I rolled doubled. Taking out the 10, 11, 12 would seriously suck since I'd have the greatest chance of rolling and playing those numbers.

I also fear that I may be the NK regardless of whether we lynch or no lynch.

But there's no other good target; most of us will soon run out of dice. The only possibilty I see is WW targets the same person as liopoil. Maybe ash or PPS?

[Beyond Awesome]

Ash's plans are usually a little bit, more, uh.. I don't know, less WIFOM and more based on setup and roles.

Also, Ash could have lied, actually became permanently loved and made a BS story about using all of his dice for WIFOM reasons so that he wouldn't get lynched today and later on become unlynchable.

Yes, but why bring up the Lovedoctor at all today?

Also, can you explain to me if Ash were town why he would do what he did? What is the benefit of town Ash to do what he did and what is the benefit of scum Ash to do what he did?

He got reactions. although it was frustrating I will admit having those reactions can help finding scum.

You might have a point. I guess I am still pissed about that really long and annoying argument we had. I swear I was ready to lynch him right then and there. Is Ash always that annoying?

[faust]

Alright. I'm 90% sure that the two scum are in {faust, PPS, liopoil, ashersky}. 5% chance that Hydrad is scum and 5% chance that BA/WW really are scum. Looking at that, we have 5 options today:

Lynch faust: With his association with ash, he's moved up in my scum rankings. However, he has enough dice to perform an investigation for us if he's Town, or lie about one if he's scum. There is some WIFOM whether or not scum will kill him if he's Town and whether or not I'll actually give it to him. Plus, he's very unlikely to be the dice destroyer. Not an option.

Lynch PPS: What I want to do tbh. Has the most likely pairings and has played a very scummy game while not coming under too much scrutiny.

I honestly still don't see the scumminess of PPS. His posts seem very genuine.

Lynch liopoil: Leaving him alive will force him to pump more dice into circulation. He has laid very low... so low that he's flown relatively under the radar. However, the only paring that really makes sense starting with him is with ash because he's very unlikely to be the dice destroyer and ash is. Not an option.

Lynch ash: Hurst my ego a bit, but I'm less certain that he's scum. I still think that he could be the dice destroyer, but the whole ploy with the Love Doctor just seems so unlike ash and makes no sense if he's scum. Him possibly being the dice destroyer puts him as a good lynch option.

No Lynch: I smell something fishy with faust's no lynch plan. I agree with BA that there's no reason to no lynch if we have 2 perfect scum candidates and something could easily go wrong depending on who scum kill. Still, I'd rather do this than lynch liopoil or faust.

What is "something fishy"? Something can very easily go wrong if we mislynch today - we can lose the game! Are you that sure of your scum reads?

[faust]

So, Faust, here is what I am thinking.

If WW and I are scum, we are screwed no matter what and nothing we do will change anything. So, lynching between Ash and PPS makes the most sense.

So, we lynch one of them. You use the Mentalist to cop the one who wasn't lynched. Hydrad targets a player. I target the player Hydrad targets. I say what number is missing and Hydrad confirms that, thus confirming my power. WW targets someone with plenty of dice. That person rolls their dice and confirms WW's power. How is that? If we are scum, we are caught tomorrow no matter what whether we no lynch or lynch today. So, honestly, lynching has to be the better choice because I know WW and I are town, and it is better to take our chances and lynch between Ash and PPS than to give scum another NK.

PPE: 3

You're still ignoring that we might not have another mislynch!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[faust]

Looks like liopoil, WW, and I are the only ones of PPS's wagon.

Vote: PPS

i would lynch PPS also. just trying to rethink a couple things but if needed I would be willing to hammer

PLEASE DON'T!!!

[faust]

Looks like liopoil, WW, and I are the only ones of PPS's wagon.

Vote: PPS

i would lynch PPS also. just trying to rethink a couple things but if needed I would be willing to hammer

Okay, if you hammer PPS can you target Ash with your dice removing ability?

Ash does not have dice left.

[faust]

With all this emphasis on confirmed roles why is the plan consolidating around lynching the guy we can confirm and leaving alive the VT that cannot be confirmed?

Also, Ash can be just as confirmed as you with the Mentalist.

How so? I specified who I sent the Mentalist to and it was confirmed as well.

Faust claims he can cop someone with Mentalist.

And I can die!

[Beyond Awesome]

Looks like liopoil, WW, and I are the only ones of PPS's wagon.

Vote: PPS

i would lynch PPS also. just trying to rethink a couple things but if needed I would be willing to hammer

Okay, if you hammer PPS can you target Ash with your dice removing ability?

Ash does not have dice left.

I can still inspect players without dice. I can find out what they are capable of rolling if they had dice.

[faust]

Arch! Hydrad! liopoil! Please don't do this to me! We are so close to winning this, but if we lynch PPS, that is likely the last thing we ever do.

[faust]

Looks like liopoil, WW, and I are the only ones of PPS's wagon.

Vote: PPS

i would lynch PPS also. just trying to rethink a couple things but if needed I would be willing to hammer

Okay, if you hammer PPS can you target Ash with your dice removing ability?

Ash does not have dice left.

I can still inspect players without dice. I can find out what they are capable of rolling if they had dice.

Still, the more players can confirm, the better. Ash cannot confirm.

[Beyond Awesome]

Arch! Hydrad! liopoil! Please don't do this to me! We are so close to winning this, but if we lynch PPS, that is likely the last thing we ever do.

I want to lynch Ash Faust.

Here is my current lynch preference.

1. Ash
2. Lio
3. PPS
4. Arch

[faust]

IT IS OBVIOUS THAT WW AND BA ARE GUNNING FOR THAT ONE LAST MISLYNCH THEY NEED IN ORDER TO WIN THIS GAME!

Sorry about that.

[faust]

Vote: Witherweaver

[Beyond Awesome]

IT IS OBVIOUS THAT WW AND BA ARE GUNNING FOR THAT ONE LAST MISLYNCH THEY NEED IN ORDER TO WIN THIS GAME!

Sorry about that.

Faust think about what you are saying. If we are scum, we are caught tomorrow no matter if a mislynch happens or not. Why would WW and I be trying so hard when nothing we do would matter and we would end up getting caught anyway? Seriously, if we were scum, we would have thrown in the towel by now.

Also, we could have easily had Ash lynched the other day when he as acting all crazy and everything. We could have easily pushed his lynch. Everyone was ready to vote for him.

PPE

[faust]

IT IS OBVIOUS THAT WW AND BA ARE GUNNING FOR THAT ONE LAST MISLYNCH THEY NEED IN ORDER TO WIN THIS GAME!

Sorry about that.

Faust think about what you are saying. If we are scum, we are caught tomorrow no matter if a mislynch happens or not. Why would WW and I be trying so hard when nothing we do would matter and we would end up getting caught anyway? Seriously, if we were scum, we would have thrown in the towel by now.

Also, we could have easily had Ash lynched the other day when he as acting all crazy and everything. We could have easily pushed his lynch. Everyone was ready to vote for him.

PPE

You are NOT listening to me!

One of you is Loved. If you get a mislynch today, you have instantly won, because there is no way of lynching you both.

[faust]

And re: ash, you were obviously afraid to be caught if you get too excited.

[Witherweaver]

IT IS OBVIOUS THAT WW AND BA ARE GUNNING FOR THAT ONE LAST MISLYNCH THEY NEED IN ORDER TO WIN THIS GAME!

Sorry about that.

Today I learned "obvious" is the same as "false"

[faust]

Faust think about what you are saying. If we are scum, we are caught tomorrow no matter if a mislynch happens or not. Why would WW and I be trying so hard when nothing we do would matter and we would end up getting caught anyway? Seriously, if we were scum, we would have thrown in the towel by now.

Also, we could have easily had Ash lynched the other day when he as acting all crazy and everything. We could have easily pushed his lynch. Everyone was ready to vote for him.

PPE

Epic scumslip

[Witherweaver]

IT IS OBVIOUS THAT WW AND BA ARE GUNNING FOR THAT ONE LAST MISLYNCH THEY NEED IN ORDER TO WIN THIS GAME!

Sorry about that.

Faust think about what you are saying. If we are scum, we are caught tomorrow no matter if a mislynch happens or not. Why would WW and I be trying so hard when nothing we do would matter and we would end up getting caught anyway? Seriously, if we were scum, we would have thrown in the towel by now.

Also, we could have easily had Ash lynched the other day when he as acting all crazy and everything. We could have easily pushed his lynch. Everyone was ready to vote for him.

PPE

You are NOT listening to me!

One of you is Loved. If you get a mislynch today, you have instantly won, because there is no way of lynching you both.

We're not too concerned with this theory due to its entire falsehood.

[Witherweaver]

Faust think about what you are saying. If we are scum, we are caught tomorrow no matter if a mislynch happens or not. Why would WW and I be trying so hard when nothing we do would matter and we would end up getting caught anyway? Seriously, if we were scum, we would have thrown in the towel by now.

Also, we could have easily had Ash lynched the other day when he as acting all crazy and everything. We could have easily pushed his lynch. Everyone was ready to vote for him.

PPE

Epic scumslip

Today I learned Faust quotes some irrelevant post and claims it as proof that person X is scum.

[faust]

IT IS OBVIOUS THAT WW AND BA ARE GUNNING FOR THAT ONE LAST MISLYNCH THEY NEED IN ORDER TO WIN THIS GAME!

Sorry about that.

Faust think about what you are saying. If we are scum, we are caught tomorrow no matter if a mislynch happens or not. Why would WW and I be trying so hard when nothing we do would matter and we would end up getting caught anyway? Seriously, if we were scum, we would have thrown in the towel by now.

Also, we could have easily had Ash lynched the other day when he as acting all crazy and everything. We could have easily pushed his lynch. Everyone was ready to vote for him.

PPE

You are NOT listening to me!

One of you is Loved. If you get a mislynch today, you have instantly won, because there is no way of lynching you both.

We're not too concerned with this theory due to its entire falsehood.

yeah, but then stop arguing against me, since you obviously are not trying to understand what I'm saying and how I think.

[Witherweaver]

IT IS OBVIOUS THAT WW AND BA ARE GUNNING FOR THAT ONE LAST MISLYNCH THEY NEED IN ORDER TO WIN THIS GAME!

Sorry about that.

Faust think about what you are saying. If we are scum, we are caught tomorrow no matter if a mislynch happens or not. Why would WW and I be trying so hard when nothing we do would matter and we would end up getting caught anyway? Seriously, if we were scum, we would have thrown in the towel by now.

Also, we could have easily had Ash lynched the other day when he as acting all crazy and everything. We could have easily pushed his lynch. Everyone was ready to vote for him.

PPE

If we were scum, we'd want a no lynch I think.

[Beyond Awesome]

IT IS OBVIOUS THAT WW AND BA ARE GUNNING FOR THAT ONE LAST MISLYNCH THEY NEED IN ORDER TO WIN THIS GAME!

Sorry about that.

Faust think about what you are saying. If we are scum, we are caught tomorrow no matter if a mislynch happens or not. Why would WW and I be trying so hard when nothing we do would matter and we would end up getting caught anyway? Seriously, if we were scum, we would have thrown in the towel by now.

Also, we could have easily had Ash lynched the other day when he as acting all crazy and everything. We could have easily pushed his lynch. Everyone was ready to vote for him.

PPE

You are NOT listening to me!

One of you is Loved. If you get a mislynch today, you have instantly won, because there is no way of lynching you both.

So, if we were scum, then why didn't we just have Ash lynched then and there when everyone was ready to lynch him? If one of us was loved as you so claim then that would have been the wise thing to do if we were scum.

[faust]

IT IS OBVIOUS THAT WW AND BA ARE GUNNING FOR THAT ONE LAST MISLYNCH THEY NEED IN ORDER TO WIN THIS GAME!

Sorry about that.

Faust think about what you are saying. If we are scum, we are caught tomorrow no matter if a mislynch happens or not. Why would WW and I be trying so hard when nothing we do would matter and we would end up getting caught anyway? Seriously, if we were scum, we would have thrown in the towel by now.

Also, we could have easily had Ash lynched the other day when he as acting all crazy and everything. We could have easily pushed his lynch. Everyone was ready to vote for him.

PPE

If we were scum, we'd want a no lynch I think.

Bullshit.

[pingpongsam]

Funny how WW and BA are the only 2 players who are completely on the same page with one another.

[Witherweaver]

IT IS OBVIOUS THAT WW AND BA ARE GUNNING FOR THAT ONE LAST MISLYNCH THEY NEED IN ORDER TO WIN THIS GAME!

Sorry about that.

Faust think about what you are saying. If we are scum, we are caught tomorrow no matter if a mislynch happens or not. Why would WW and I be trying so hard when nothing we do would matter and we would end up getting caught anyway? Seriously, if we were scum, we would have thrown in the towel by now.

Also, we could have easily had Ash lynched the other day when he as acting all crazy and everything. We could have easily pushed his lynch. Everyone was ready to vote for him.

PPE

You are NOT listening to me!

One of you is Loved. If you get a mislynch today, you have instantly won, because there is no way of lynching you both.

We're not too concerned with this theory due to its entire falsehood.

yeah, but then stop arguing against me, since you obviously are not trying to understand what I'm saying and how I think.

There should be gobs of evidence by now to convince you that your theory is the least likely scenario.   I can't figure out why you keep going to it.

Okay, admittedly I thought BA was scum, so if someone came to me and said "okay him and I are Masons" I'd be a little suspicious.  But with everything that happened with the bonus for killing the monster, us admitting in the QT right away that we were Masons, BA not even understanding what Masons are, by this point it's a crazy conspiracy theory.

[Witherweaver]

Funny how WW and BA are the only 2 players who are completely on the same page with one another.

Funny how we're confirmed town to each other.  Would you like to stop playing so scummily?

[faust]

If BA and WW are not scum, I'm ready to eat my hat and never play mafia again.

(Well, not really... I don't even have a hat... but you get what I mean.)

[Witherweaver]

IT IS OBVIOUS THAT WW AND BA ARE GUNNING FOR THAT ONE LAST MISLYNCH THEY NEED IN ORDER TO WIN THIS GAME!

Sorry about that.

Faust think about what you are saying. If we are scum, we are caught tomorrow no matter if a mislynch happens or not. Why would WW and I be trying so hard when nothing we do would matter and we would end up getting caught anyway? Seriously, if we were scum, we would have thrown in the towel by now.

Also, we could have easily had Ash lynched the other day when he as acting all crazy and everything. We could have easily pushed his lynch. Everyone was ready to vote for him.

PPE

If we were scum, we'd want a no lynch I think.

Bullshit.

Seems like a free night kill to me.

[pingpongsam]

Funny how WW and BA are the only 2 players who are completely on the same page with one another.

Funny how we're confirmed town to each other.  Would you like to stop playing so scummily?

Being conftown to each other doesn't mean you suddenly agree about everything else as well. Why you think pointing this out is a scummy thing to do is beyond me.

[Hydrad]

Funny how WW and BA are the only 2 players who are completely on the same page with one another.

I think whether they are scum or town they would be on the same page. If they are scum they both want to myslynch. if they are town they are almost 100% sure that the scum is probably asher/pps/lio. their arn't many other options at this point of the game

PPE:3

[Beyond Awesome]

If BA and WW are not scum, I'm ready to eat my hat and never play mafia again.

(Well, not really... I don't even have a hat... but you get what I mean.)

Then, you better buy a hat so you can eat it. Also, be sure to post a video for us to watch.

[Witherweaver]

If BA and WW are not scum, I'm ready to eat my hat and never play mafia again.

(Well, not really... I don't even have a hat... but you get what I mean.)

Let's make some real life bets about it.

[faust]

There should be gobs of evidence by now to convince you that your theory is the least likely scenario.   I can't figure out why you keep going to it.

Okay, admittedly I thought BA was scum, so if someone came to me and said "okay him and I are Masons" I'd be a little suspicious.  But with everything that happened with the bonus for killing the monster, us admitting in the QT right away that we were Masons, BA not even understanding what Masons are, by this point it's a crazy conspiracy theory.

If you really were town, well, you brought my suspicion on yourself. I could have been swayed away from that, but not after I saw how you played this day.

[Witherweaver]

Funny how WW and BA are the only 2 players who are completely on the same page with one another.

Funny how we're confirmed town to each other.  Would you like to stop playing so scummily?

Being conftown to each other doesn't mean you suddenly agree about everything else as well. Why you think pointing this out is a scummy thing to do is beyond me.

Man, you do not listen.

[pingpongsam]

Funny how WW and BA are the only 2 players who are completely on the same page with one another.

I think whether they are scum or town they would be on the same page. If they are scum they both want to myslynch. if they are town they are almost 100% sure that the scum is probably asher/pps/lio. their arn't many other options at this point of the game

PPE:3

No, they would know that any of arch, faust, ash, hydrad, lio were not town. But they are in lockstep with proceeding towards what I know to be a mislynch.

The only thing that pair has over any of the rest of us is that they can remove exactly one other person from the pool of potential scum. Yet magically, they both can laser right into an agreed target while everyone else seems to be wholly undecided.

[faust]

If BA and WW are not scum, I'm ready to eat my hat and never play mafia again.

(Well, not really... I don't even have a hat... but you get what I mean.)

Let's make some real life bets about it.

I like to keep real life and mafia seperate. Better if you don't go around lynching people.

[Witherweaver]

There should be gobs of evidence by now to convince you that your theory is the least likely scenario.   I can't figure out why you keep going to it.

Okay, admittedly I thought BA was scum, so if someone came to me and said "okay him and I are Masons" I'd be a little suspicious.  But with everything that happened with the bonus for killing the monster, us admitting in the QT right away that we were Masons, BA not even understanding what Masons are, by this point it's a crazy conspiracy theory.

If you really were town, well, you brought my suspicion on yourself. I could have been swayed away from that, but not after I saw how you played this day.

How did I bring any suspicion on myself?

[Witherweaver]

If BA and WW are not scum, I'm ready to eat my hat and never play mafia again.

(Well, not really... I don't even have a hat... but you get what I mean.)

Let's make some real life bets about it.

I like to keep real life and mafia seperate. Better if you don't go around lynching people.

[Beyond Awesome]

There should be gobs of evidence by now to convince you that your theory is the least likely scenario.   I can't figure out why you keep going to it.

Okay, admittedly I thought BA was scum, so if someone came to me and said "okay him and I are Masons" I'd be a little suspicious.  But with everything that happened with the bonus for killing the monster, us admitting in the QT right away that we were Masons, BA not even understanding what Masons are, by this point it's a crazy conspiracy theory.

If you really were town, well, you brought my suspicion on yourself. I could have been swayed away from that, but not after I saw how you played this day.
[/quote

What the hell are you talking about?

[Beyond Awesome]

There should be gobs of evidence by now to convince you that your theory is the least likely scenario.   I can't figure out why you keep going to it.

Okay, admittedly I thought BA was scum, so if someone came to me and said "okay him and I are Masons" I'd be a little suspicious.  But with everything that happened with the bonus for killing the monster, us admitting in the QT right away that we were Masons, BA not even understanding what Masons are, by this point it's a crazy conspiracy theory.

If you really were town, well, you brought my suspicion on yourself. I could have been swayed away from that, but not after I saw how you played this day.

I mean

What the hell are you talking about?

[Witherweaver]

Funny how WW and BA are the only 2 players who are completely on the same page with one another.

I think whether they are scum or town they would be on the same page. If they are scum they both want to myslynch. if they are town they are almost 100% sure that the scum is probably asher/pps/lio. their arn't many other options at this point of the game

PPE:3

No, they would know that any of arch, faust, ash, hydrad, lio were not town. But they are in lockstep with proceeding towards what I know to be a mislynch.

The only thing that pair has over any of the rest of us is that they can remove exactly one other person from the pool of potential scum. Yet magically, they both can laser right into an agreed target while everyone else seems to be wholly undecided.

Hydrad I'm treating as very likely town due to his play today and in the QT.  Lio and Arch I'm not as convinced.  However, their roles have been confirmed.  So they are most surely not *both* scum.  Therefore, there is one in {Faust, PPS, Ash}.

[Beyond Awesome]

Who did Faust claim to steal from yesterday?

[faust]

Who did Faust claim to steal from yesterday?

I stole from WW N2 and from PPS N3.

[faust]

There should be gobs of evidence by now to convince you that your theory is the least likely scenario.   I can't figure out why you keep going to it.

Okay, admittedly I thought BA was scum, so if someone came to me and said "okay him and I are Masons" I'd be a little suspicious.  But with everything that happened with the bonus for killing the monster, us admitting in the QT right away that we were Masons, BA not even understanding what Masons are, by this point it's a crazy conspiracy theory.

If you really were town, well, you brought my suspicion on yourself. I could have been swayed away from that, but not after I saw how you played this day.

How did I bring any suspicion on myself?

Go back and reread yourself. You are acting all bossy and hostile towards everyone who dares to oppose you, together with your scum partner BA you are trying to bring this game into your total control, and you're furious that I won't let you do that.

[Witherweaver]

There should be gobs of evidence by now to convince you that your theory is the least likely scenario.   I can't figure out why you keep going to it.

Okay, admittedly I thought BA was scum, so if someone came to me and said "okay him and I are Masons" I'd be a little suspicious.  But with everything that happened with the bonus for killing the monster, us admitting in the QT right away that we were Masons, BA not even understanding what Masons are, by this point it's a crazy conspiracy theory.

If you really were town, well, you brought my suspicion on yourself. I could have been swayed away from that, but not after I saw how you played this day.

How did I bring any suspicion on myself?

Go back and reread yourself. You are acting all bossy and hostile towards everyone who dares to oppose you, together with your scum partner BA you are trying to bring this game into your total control, and you're furious that I won't let you do that.

I've been trying and trying and trying and trying and trying to have actual discussions with you on who is actually scum, but you insist on just sitting and accusing the only two players in the game who I know are town.  So yeah it's frustrating.

[faust]

I did consider other scum pairings.

[faust]

If PPS is scum, and the dice destroyer, how do his D1 actions make sense?

[Beyond Awesome]

If PPS is scum, and the dice destroyer, how do his D1 actions make sense?

Maybe he became permanently loved on N0 and decided to save his ability for N1?

[pingpongsam]

There should be gobs of evidence by now to convince you that your theory is the least likely scenario.   I can't figure out why you keep going to it.

Okay, admittedly I thought BA was scum, so if someone came to me and said "okay him and I are Masons" I'd be a little suspicious.  But with everything that happened with the bonus for killing the monster, us admitting in the QT right away that we were Masons, BA not even understanding what Masons are, by this point it's a crazy conspiracy theory.

If you really were town, well, you brought my suspicion on yourself. I could have been swayed away from that, but not after I saw how you played this day.

How did I bring any suspicion on myself?

Go back and reread yourself. You are acting all bossy and hostile towards everyone who dares to oppose you, together with your scum partner BA you are trying to bring this game into your total control, and you're furious that I won't let you do that.

I've been trying and trying and trying and trying and trying to have actual discussions with you on who is actually scum, but you insist on just sitting and accusing the only two players in the game who I know are town.  So yeah it's frustrating.

The frustrating part is you seem sure who is scum when the reality is, if you are town, you can't be so sure. Additionally, from my vantage point, I know for a fact you are wrong and so it lends a huge cloud of scumminess to your certainty.

[Witherweaver]

There should be gobs of evidence by now to convince you that your theory is the least likely scenario.   I can't figure out why you keep going to it.

Okay, admittedly I thought BA was scum, so if someone came to me and said "okay him and I are Masons" I'd be a little suspicious.  But with everything that happened with the bonus for killing the monster, us admitting in the QT right away that we were Masons, BA not even understanding what Masons are, by this point it's a crazy conspiracy theory.

If you really were town, well, you brought my suspicion on yourself. I could have been swayed away from that, but not after I saw how you played this day.

How did I bring any suspicion on myself?

Go back and reread yourself. You are acting all bossy and hostile towards everyone who dares to oppose you, together with your scum partner BA you are trying to bring this game into your total control, and you're furious that I won't let you do that.

I've been trying and trying and trying and trying and trying to have actual discussions with you on who is actually scum, but you insist on just sitting and accusing the only two players in the game who I know are town.  So yeah it's frustrating.

The frustrating part is you seem sure who is scum when the reality is, if you are town, you can't be so sure. Additionally, from my vantage point, I know for a fact you are wrong and so it lends a huge cloud of scumminess to your certainty.

You're not listening.  I'm not certain. 

[pingpongsam]

If PPS is scum, and the dice destroyer, how do his D1 actions make sense?

Maybe he became permanently loved on N0 and decided to save his ability for N1?

Having not received the Love Doctor I can't say for sure but I suspect you have to use stored dice to buy anything from the guy so I'd like to hear your explanation of how I managed to store dice when I haven't had the opportunity to roll them.

[faust]

If PPS is scum, and the dice destroyer, how do his D1 actions make sense?

Maybe he became permanently loved on N0 and decided to save his ability for N1?

Now you're just making random stuff up.

[pingpongsam]

There should be gobs of evidence by now to convince you that your theory is the least likely scenario.   I can't figure out why you keep going to it.

Okay, admittedly I thought BA was scum, so if someone came to me and said "okay him and I are Masons" I'd be a little suspicious.  But with everything that happened with the bonus for killing the monster, us admitting in the QT right away that we were Masons, BA not even understanding what Masons are, by this point it's a crazy conspiracy theory.

If you really were town, well, you brought my suspicion on yourself. I could have been swayed away from that, but not after I saw how you played this day.

How did I bring any suspicion on myself?

Go back and reread yourself. You are acting all bossy and hostile towards everyone who dares to oppose you, together with your scum partner BA you are trying to bring this game into your total control, and you're furious that I won't let you do that.

I've been trying and trying and trying and trying and trying to have actual discussions with you on who is actually scum, but you insist on just sitting and accusing the only two players in the game who I know are town.  So yeah it's frustrating.

The frustrating part is you seem sure who is scum when the reality is, if you are town, you can't be so sure. Additionally, from my vantage point, I know for a fact you are wrong and so it lends a huge cloud of scumminess to your certainty.

You're not listening.  I'm not certain.

Oh, so who are you willing to vote for besides me?

[Witherweaver]

If PPS is scum, and the dice destroyer, how do his D1 actions make sense?

To make it look like he was targeted by scum to get town cred.

[Witherweaver]

There should be gobs of evidence by now to convince you that your theory is the least likely scenario.   I can't figure out why you keep going to it.

Okay, admittedly I thought BA was scum, so if someone came to me and said "okay him and I are Masons" I'd be a little suspicious.  But with everything that happened with the bonus for killing the monster, us admitting in the QT right away that we were Masons, BA not even understanding what Masons are, by this point it's a crazy conspiracy theory.

If you really were town, well, you brought my suspicion on yourself. I could have been swayed away from that, but not after I saw how you played this day.

How did I bring any suspicion on myself?

Go back and reread yourself. You are acting all bossy and hostile towards everyone who dares to oppose you, together with your scum partner BA you are trying to bring this game into your total control, and you're furious that I won't let you do that.

I've been trying and trying and trying and trying and trying to have actual discussions with you on who is actually scum, but you insist on just sitting and accusing the only two players in the game who I know are town.  So yeah it's frustrating.

The frustrating part is you seem sure who is scum when the reality is, if you are town, you can't be so sure. Additionally, from my vantage point, I know for a fact you are wrong and so it lends a huge cloud of scumminess to your certainty.

You're not listening.  I'm not certain.

Oh, so who are you willing to vote for besides me?

Ash and Faust.

[Beyond Awesome]

If PPS is scum, and the dice destroyer, how do his D1 actions make sense?

Maybe he became permanently loved on N0 and decided to save his ability for N1?

Now you're just making random stuff up.

You asked for a possible explanation, and I offered one.

[pingpongsam]

Sorry, but I can't say there has been a single action I've taken all game that has amounted to town cred.

[Witherweaver]

If PPS is scum, and the dice destroyer, how do his D1 actions make sense?

Maybe he became permanently loved on N0 and decided to save his ability for N1?

Having not received the Love Doctor I can't say for sure but I suspect you have to use stored dice to buy anything from the guy so I'd like to hear your explanation of how I managed to store dice when I haven't had the opportunity to roll them.

You don't store dice, you store a role value.  Love Doctor spends dice from supply or receives dice to supply (as I understand it).

[faust]

If PPS is scum, and the dice destroyer, how do his D1 actions make sense?

To make it look like he was targeted by scum to get town cred.

And claim a fake negative utility role when it was clear that sooner or later, we'd find out? Genius.

[Witherweaver]

Sorry, but I can't say there has been a single action I've taken all game that has amounted to town cred.

Not true, you were basically taken out of consideration Day 1 and have an argument against being scum now (that Faust is presenting).

[Witherweaver]

If PPS is scum, and the dice destroyer, how do his D1 actions make sense?

To make it look like he was targeted by scum to get town cred.

And claim a fake negative utility role when it was clear that sooner or later, we'd find out? Genius.

How was that clear to him?  He knew the setup? 

[faust]

If PPS is scum, and the dice destroyer, how do his D1 actions make sense?

Maybe he became permanently loved on N0 and decided to save his ability for N1?

Now you're just making random stuff up.

You asked for a possible explanation, and I offered one.

And you seriously think that's likely, and at the same time scold me because the you/WW scum scenario is a "crazy conspiracy theory"?

[pingpongsam]

If PPS is scum, and the dice destroyer, how do his D1 actions make sense?

Maybe he became permanently loved on N0 and decided to save his ability for N1?

Now you're just making random stuff up.

You asked for a possible explanation, and I offered one.

When I was a kid, growing up an only child, whenever my parents wanted an explanation how something happened if I wasn't the one to do it, I would tell them someone must have broken in and done it while we were gone. That's how you are coming across with this ridiculousness.

[Witherweaver]

His role is not even verifiable.  It can be proven false, but difficultly.  He gives someone a d12.  Then if they ever get more dice (not necessarily likely), that die will be a d8, and then rolls will alternate between d12 and d8.  So he needs to target someone, some die giver needs to target someone, which is two nights, by the way, as we can't guarantee which will trigger first.

Then someone .. uh.. rolls some dice, and if they're all above 8 we say PPS is a liar?

[faust]

If PPS is scum, and the dice destroyer, how do his D1 actions make sense?

Maybe he became permanently loved on N0 and decided to save his ability for N1?

Now you're just making random stuff up.

You asked for a possible explanation, and I offered one.

When I was a kid, growing up an only child, whenever my parents wanted an explanation how something happened if I wasn't the one to do it, I would tell them someone must have broken in and done it while we were gone. That's how you are coming across with this ridiculousness.

I like this

[Beyond Awesome]

You know PPS for as much as you accuse WW and I lining up, you and Faust sure seem like a scum team today.

[faust]

His role is not even verifiable.  It can be proven false, but difficultly.  He gives someone a d12.  Then if they ever get more dice (not necessarily likely), that die will be a d8, and then rolls will alternate between d12 and d8.  So he needs to target someone, some die giver needs to target someone, which is two nights, by the way, as we can't guarantee which will trigger first.

Then someone .. uh.. rolls some dice, and if they're all above 8 we say PPS is a liar?

Of course it's verifiable. He deals out a die.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, then, we lynch Ash.

[faust]

Okay, then, we lynch Ash.

But ash is town.

[Witherweaver]

How is PPS buying Loved even remotely a crazy theory?  Being loved costs dice, he claimed to have lost dice Day 1.  The only question is whether or not the "non controlled" NPCs were sent out Night 0.  Grim Reaper obviously not, since no one can roll.  Dice Vendor requires stored too, so no.

Love Doctor doesn't need dice stored as I understand it.

[Witherweaver]

His role is not even verifiable.  It can be proven false, but difficultly.  He gives someone a d12.  Then if they ever get more dice (not necessarily likely), that die will be a d8, and then rolls will alternate between d12 and d8.  So he needs to target someone, some die giver needs to target someone, which is two nights, by the way, as we can't guarantee which will trigger first.

Then someone .. uh.. rolls some dice, and if they're all above 8 we say PPS is a liar?

Of course it's verifiable. He deals out a die.

I keep on forgetting that.  Sorry.

[faust]

How is PPS buying Loved even remotely a crazy theory?  Being loved costs dice, he claimed to have lost dice Day 1.  The only question is whether or not the "non controlled" NPCs were sent out Night 0.  Grim Reaper obviously not, since no one can roll.  Dice Vendor requires stored too, so no.

Love Doctor doesn't need dice stored as I understand it.

Surprise, you agree with BA's crazy theory.

[pingpongsam]

Yeah, WW hasn't bothered to read my role power because, hey, we just need to kill PPS.

I give a guy a d12 and then when a whole other different guy gains a die in any other way he gets a d8. I can be verified because the guy I give a die to will get a d12.

[Witherweaver]

Okay yes.  So that's an issue for him making up a role.

The covers would be, either his partner can give out dice and he was planning to hide under him if he needed to (dangerous), or simply claim to target the person that lost dice (which he would know in this scenario, having that ability).

He has an excuse to not use his power for a while, being negative utility.  So he'd likely only need to "verify" once.

So Faust, if it's not PPS, then who?

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, then, we lynch Ash.

But ash is town.

Only scum would know this.

[faust]

Okay yes.  So that's an issue for him making up a role.

The covers would be, either his partner can give out dice and he was planning to hide under him if he needed to (dangerous), or simply claim to target the person that lost dice (which he would know in this scenario, having that ability).

He has an excuse to not use his power for a while, being negative utility.  So he'd likely only need to "verify" once.

So Faust, if it's not PPS, then who?

You and BA.

seriously, I thought it could be ash, but what he did there was so towny. All other roles are confirmed. So by PoE, it's you. So how is me going after you "crazy"?

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, WW hasn't bothered to read my role power because, hey, we just need to kill PPS.

I give a guy a d12 and then when a whole other different guy gains a die in any other way he gets a d8. I can be verified because the guy I give a die to will get a d12.

Yes, I made a mistake.  I do that a lot.

[faust]

Okay, then, we lynch Ash.

But ash is town.

Only scum would know this.

I advise you to stop posting, if you don't want to make a fool of yourself.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, then, we lynch Ash.

But ash is town.

Only scum would know this.

I advise you to stop posting, if you don't want to make a fool of yourself.

I would advise the same to you. But, if you are town, you have already made a huge fool of yourself.

[Witherweaver]

Okay yes.  So that's an issue for him making up a role.

The covers would be, either his partner can give out dice and he was planning to hide under him if he needed to (dangerous), or simply claim to target the person that lost dice (which he would know in this scenario, having that ability).

He has an excuse to not use his power for a while, being negative utility.  So he'd likely only need to "verify" once.

So Faust, if it's not PPS, then who?

You and BA.

seriously, I thought it could be ash, but what he did there was so towny. All other roles are confirmed. So by PoE, it's you. So how is me going after you "crazy"?

Because it's not even possible.  And it would be the most retarded town prize ever.

From my position, it's {You, PPS, Ash}, and if you want to cut out PPS and insist Ash is town, that leaves me with you.

[faust]

Okay yes.  So that's an issue for him making up a role.

The covers would be, either his partner can give out dice and he was planning to hide under him if he needed to (dangerous), or simply claim to target the person that lost dice (which he would know in this scenario, having that ability).

He has an excuse to not use his power for a while, being negative utility.  So he'd likely only need to "verify" once.

So Faust, if it's not PPS, then who?

You and BA.

seriously, I thought it could be ash, but what he did there was so towny. All other roles are confirmed. So by PoE, it's you. So how is me going after you "crazy"?

Because it's not even possible.  And it would be the most retarded town prize ever.

From my position, it's {You, PPS, Ash}, and if you want to cut out PPS and insist Ash is town, that leaves me with you.

Well, what a genius scum game I'm playing.

[Witherweaver]

Which brings me back to PPS/Ash!

[pingpongsam]

I am up for WW/BA or no lynch. I got stuff to go do for a while.

[Beyond Awesome]

At this point, I think PPS is too scummy to be scum.

[pingpongsam]

The problem with the PPS/ash bit is that there are 2 scum remaining and there is no way we're both scum. I seriously doubt ash is scum and if faust is scum, holy wow, what an amazing job he is doing. So, really, according to the WW line of thinking he has cornered himself. If lio or arch are scum they are all grins right now I am sure.

[Witherweaver]

The problem with the PPS/ash bit is that there are 2 scum remaining and there is no way we're both scum. I seriously doubt ash is scum and if faust is scum, holy wow, what an amazing job he is doing. So, really, according to the WW line of thinking he has cornered himself. If lio or arch are scum they are all grins right now I am sure.

"/" meant "or" there, not "and"

[Hydrad]

The only way I see the prize being both scum are together is this.

Jimmm picks 2 random people and tells each other their roles. There is a chance that one could be town one could be scum. Or even both scum. or both town.

I just can't think that the power would be that both scum always are chosen as all it does is cause tons of confusion. But I guess I need to stop thinking of what is and isn't possible and just look at the facts at this point as ignoring possibilities can cause tons of problems.

PPE:3

[Witherweaver]

Okay yes.  So that's an issue for him making up a role.

The covers would be, either his partner can give out dice and he was planning to hide under him if he needed to (dangerous), or simply claim to target the person that lost dice (which he would know in this scenario, having that ability).

He has an excuse to not use his power for a while, being negative utility.  So he'd likely only need to "verify" once.

So Faust, if it's not PPS, then who?

Or, of course, he can just kill the person he claims to give a die to.  I'd want to avoid having to do that, though.  And the last-ditch thing would just be falsely claiming and trying to win out the 1-on-1 liar-liar situation that arises.

[faust]

The only way I see the prize being both scum are together is this.

Jimmm picks 2 random people and tells each other their roles. There is a chance that one could be town one could be scum. Or even both scum. or both town.

I just can't think that the power would be that both scum always are chosen as all it does is cause tons of confusion. But I guess I need to stop thinking of what is and isn't possible and just look at the facts at this point as ignoring possibilities can cause tons of problems.

PPE:3

The thing with the prize is, it's so weird that it's just not possible that it doesn't cause confusion. I appreciate you considering all options.

[faust]

If WW and BA are town, I cannot begin to think of a reason they would be against a no lynch. That way they get me on their side, and we find scum almost certainly.

[Witherweaver]

The only way I see the prize being both scum are together is this.

Jimmm picks 2 random people and tells each other their roles. There is a chance that one could be town one could be scum. Or even both scum. or both town.

I just can't think that the power would be that both scum always are chosen as all it does is cause tons of confusion. But I guess I need to stop thinking of what is and isn't possible and just look at the facts at this point as ignoring possibilities can cause tons of problems.

PPE:3

I guess the former could be possible.  But that doesn't even seem helpful for town at all.

[pingpongsam]

My biggest fear is giving the die to the NK target. Second to that would be giving the die to scum and them denying it. No surprise how my legitimate fears are being twisted into the preemptive context needed to insure my mislynch tomorrow should either happen.

PPE: yeah, the admamant and synchronized refusal to no lynch was a dead give away to me, too

PS, I'm really leaving now, lol, bbl

[Hydrad]

If WW and BA are town, I cannot begin to think of a reason they would be against a no lynch. That way they get me on their side, and we find scum almost certainly.

The only reason I can think that they would be opposed to a no lynch. (as i might be if I was in their situation) is if you were town and you had crossed of me/lio or something. you feel like you have the game won with only 3 people left being scum. So personally I would really just try to push lynching those people. Thats why I still feel that they are town.

PPE

[Witherweaver]

If WW and BA are town, I cannot begin to think of a reason they would be against a no lynch. That way they get me on their side, and we find scum almost certainly.

Okay I'll consider the no lynch.  I guess my biggest fear is that you're scum.

[Hydrad]

so should PPS target ash or someone that has a really low chance of being lynched? I don't know if he should say who hes going to target? but if its not who lio is targeting or me or faust I think it should work. The biggest issue isn't the fact that the person will die its that the person might have dice stolen from them and his no one will believe that he gave them dice.

[faust]

If WW and BA are town, I cannot begin to think of a reason they would be against a no lynch. That way they get me on their side, and we find scum almost certainly.

The only reason I can think that they would be opposed to a no lynch. (as i might be if I was in their situation) is if you were town and you had crossed of me/lio or something. you feel like you have the game won with only 3 people left being scum. So personally I would really just try to push lynching those people. Thats why I still feel that they are town.

PPE

But that's not what they say. Their lynch pool is still five people.

[Witherweaver]

But think of it from my end.  I'm worried that I'm going to have the same list of suspects tomorrow with no new information to analyze.  Ash can't be verified, and there are problems with verifying yours and PPS's roles.

[Beyond Awesome]

And, we will be out another town player.

[Beyond Awesome]

I still think Ash is the best lynch choice today.

[faust]

But think of it from my end.  I'm worried that I'm going to have the same list of suspects tomorrow with no new information to analyze.  Ash can't be verified, and there are problems with verifying yours and PPS's roles.

But the position is not actually worse, right? I mean, at least there will be some "if X is scum, then Y as well" connections. And for the rest of us, we can take you out of the lynch pool, why are you being so selfish? And there's a reward which may help us finding scum. And having 7 people around instead of 8 is not actually a worse situation.

[Hydrad]

Vote: No Lynch

[faust]

so should PPS target ash or someone that has a really low chance of being lynched? I don't know if he should say who hes going to target? but if its not who lio is targeting or me or faust I think it should work. The biggest issue isn't the fact that the person will die its that the person might have dice stolen from them and his no one will believe that he gave them dice.

Well, that's a really good point.

[faust]

Vote: No Lynch

[Witherweaver]

But think of it from my end.  I'm worried that I'm going to have the same list of suspects tomorrow with no new information to analyze.  Ash can't be verified, and there are problems with verifying yours and PPS's roles.

But the position is not actually worse, right? I mean, at least there will be some "if X is scum, then Y as well" connections. And for the rest of us, we can take you out of the lynch pool, why are you being so selfish? And there's a reward which may help us finding scum. And having 7 people around instead of 8 is not actually a worse situation.

Well.. I'm being selfish because I'm myself.  I guess I wasn't really realizing it was selfishness, it's hard for me to think about needing to verify things that I know are true.

I kind of assumed people would just believe me.

[Beyond Awesome]

Vote: Ash

[Hydrad]

ahh also if PPS claims to target a scum member and he lies and says he didn't get any dice. we will just lynch PPS probably. if scum is loved then they just won the game.

Overall PPS's can go wrong in a tone of ways

[Archetype]

Are you guys really going to no lynch? Its obviously faust/pingpongsam. If we no lynch today, I'm likely going to be NK'd and then faust and PPS will try to push WW or BAs lynch tommorow.

[Witherweaver]

ahh also if PPS claims to target a scum member and he lies and says he didn't get any dice. we will just lynch PPS probably. if scum is loved then they just won the game.

Overall PPS's can go wrong in a tone of ways

No, tomorrow is 7 with 5 town 2 scum.  So 4 to lynch, 5 for Loved.  Still possible.

[faust]

ahh also if PPS claims to target a scum member and he lies and says he didn't get any dice. we will just lynch PPS probably. if scum is loved then they just won the game.

Overall PPS's can go wrong in a tone of ways

You're right. The more important thing to me is confirming/outing BA/WW. If we can confirm PPS, that's a nice bonus.

[faust]

Are you guys really going to no lynch? Its obviously faust/pingpongsam. If we no lynch today, I'm likely going to be NK'd and then faust and PPS will try to push WW or BAs lynch tommorow.

Part of me wants to lose just to be able to tell you "told you so". Why is it "obviously" me/pps? I thought ash is caught scum?

[ashersky]

Why does BA/WW keep arguing that they're caught tomorrow if they are lying so they can't possibly be lying?  It isn't like the Mason claim is ever confirmable.  It's a false argument to try to protect themselves.

Council was a town reward, right?  Every reward has been useful to town.  Explain how the QT last night was useful...secret masons with two randoms?  There must have been something else to it, or the point was two townies get to meet (in council) the remaining scum via secret identities.  That makes a lot of thematic sense.  Everyone claims "not Alice/bob" the next day, scum has to be careful not to slip info they learned.

[Beyond Awesome]

Are you guys really going to no lynch? Its obviously faust/pingpongsam. If we no lynch today, I'm likely going to be NK'd and then faust and PPS will try to push WW or BAs lynch tommorow.

Part of me wants to lose just to be able to tell you "told you so". Why is it "obviously" me/pps? I thought ash is caught scum?

If you are town, the actions you are taking today are going to make you lose the game Faust.

[faust]

BTW, no way Arch is the night kill. There are tons of better targets. Me, Hydrad, WW/BA if they're town...

[faust]

Are you guys really going to no lynch? Its obviously faust/pingpongsam. If we no lynch today, I'm likely going to be NK'd and then faust and PPS will try to push WW or BAs lynch tommorow.

Part of me wants to lose just to be able to tell you "told you so". Why is it "obviously" me/pps? I thought ash is caught scum?

If you are town, the actions you are taking today are going to make you lose the game Faust.

How so? Expand.

[Beyond Awesome]

Are you guys really going to no lynch? Its obviously faust/pingpongsam. If we no lynch today, I'm likely going to be NK'd and then faust and PPS will try to push WW or BAs lynch tommorow.

Part of me wants to lose just to be able to tell you "told you so". Why is it "obviously" me/pps? I thought ash is caught scum?

If you are town, the actions you are taking today are going to make you lose the game Faust.

How so? Expand.

Because WW and I are town. That's why.

[faust]

Why does BA/WW keep arguing that they're caught tomorrow if they are lying so they can't possibly be lying?  It isn't like the Mason claim is ever confirmable.  It's a false argument to try to protect themselves.

Council was a town reward, right?  Every reward has been useful to town.  Explain how the QT last night was useful...secret masons with two randoms?  There must have been something else to it, or the point was two townies get to meet (in council) the remaining scum via secret identities.  That makes a lot of thematic sense.  Everyone claims "not Alice/bob" the next day, scum has to be careful not to slip info they learned.

I'm so glad you're here.

[Witherweaver]

BTW, no way Arch is the night kill. There are tons of better targets. Me, Hydrad, WW/BA if they're town...

We would be a bad target.  Killing one of us makes the other an IC and gets rid of the mislynch opportunity tomorrow.

[faust]

BTW, no way Arch is the night kill. There are tons of better targets. Me, Hydrad, WW/BA if they're town...

We would be a bad target.  Killing one of us makes the other an IC and gets rid of the mislynch opportunity tomorrow.

We can confirm both of you as town tomorrow... if you're town.

[faust]

Bah, you know what?

Back to Vote: WW. I have no more doubts.

[Witherweaver]

Why does BA/WW keep arguing that they're caught tomorrow if they are lying so they can't possibly be lying?  It isn't like the Mason claim is ever confirmable.  It's a false argument to try to protect themselves.

Council was a town reward, right?  Every reward has been useful to town.  Explain how the QT last night was useful...secret masons with two randoms?  There must have been something else to it, or the point was two townies get to meet (in council) the remaining scum via secret identities.  That makes a lot of thematic sense.  Everyone claims "not Alice/bob" the next day, scum has to be careful not to slip info they learned.

I'm not sure what argument you're talking about, but I'm not making that. 

I'm saying you have three people in the QT: me, BA, and Hydrad.  We can't all be scum.  It's pretty clear from QT transpirings that me and BA did not coordinate. 

[Witherweaver]

BTW, no way Arch is the night kill. There are tons of better targets. Me, Hydrad, WW/BA if they're town...

We would be a bad target.  Killing one of us makes the other an IC and gets rid of the mislynch opportunity tomorrow.

We can confirm both of you as town tomorrow... if you're town.

Huh?  How is tomorrow going to be any different than today? You can still make exactly the argument that BA and myself are scum.

[faust]

BTW, no way Arch is the night kill. There are tons of better targets. Me, Hydrad, WW/BA if they're town...

We would be a bad target.  Killing one of us makes the other an IC and gets rid of the mislynch opportunity tomorrow.

We can confirm both of you as town tomorrow... if you're town.

Huh?  How is tomorrow going to be any different than today? You can still make exactly the argument that BA and myself are scum.

Have you even read my confirmation plan?

[faust]

I'm going to sleep. With ash around, I feel a little safer to do that. Hope that Arch or lio finally get around.

[Witherweaver]

BTW, no way Arch is the night kill. There are tons of better targets. Me, Hydrad, WW/BA if they're town...

We would be a bad target.  Killing one of us makes the other an IC and gets rid of the mislynch opportunity tomorrow.

We can confirm both of you as town tomorrow... if you're town.

Huh?  How is tomorrow going to be any different than today? You can still make exactly the argument that BA and myself are scum.

Have you even read my confirmation plan?

My role is verifiable if BA investigates my target.  Then you can argue BA and I are just lying.

Otherwise, I have to target someone that rolls a bunch of dice.  (a) That person could be scum and just lie, especially if we get the odds monster, because he can play an odd and claimed to have rolled a 10 or 12.  (b) That person doesn't roll 10, 11, 12, but no one has any idea whether its chance or because of me.  So we have a bunch of probability arguments.

[Witherweaver]

Also, I could target scum and they could have a 10,11, 12 stored.

[Witherweaver]

Also, my target could die.

[Witherweaver]

What possible reason do I have to believe you aren't going to continue this crusade tomorrow?

[liopoil]

I'm fine with being targeted with pretty much anything. I don't think I'm dying tonight.

faust and ww/BA should probably stop talking to each other, definitely pointless.

wow, so many posts in so little time. Catching up.

[faust]

Also, you could be scum preparing for an incriminating result tomorrow.

Really going to sleep now.

[Witherweaver]

Also, you could be scum preparing for an incriminating result tomorrow.

Really going to sleep now.

"Preparing"?  What does that mean?

[Beyond Awesome]

I'm fine with being targeted with pretty much anything. I don't think I'm dying tonight.

faust and ww/BA should probably stop talking to each other, definitely pointless.

wow, so many posts in so little time. Catching up.

I agree. WW, I think we should just ignore Faust for the rest of the day and give him the silent treatment. Obviously, he won't listen to reason and our discussions are going nowhere with him.

[ashersky]

If faust is town (I think he is), he's dead tomorrow given his "I can cop someone!" statement, which wasn't the smartest thing he's ever said.

If pps or ash is scum, they'll kill him to protect themselves from the result.  Even if they are not, easy enough for scum to kill faust to make either of them look bad.

[ashersky]

IT IS OBVIOUS THAT WW AND BA ARE GUNNING FOR THAT ONE LAST MISLYNCH THEY NEED IN ORDER TO WIN THIS GAME!

Sorry about that.

Faust think about what you are saying. If we are scum, we are caught tomorrow no matter if a mislynch happens or not. Why would WW and I be trying so hard when nothing we do would matter and we would end up getting caught anyway? Seriously, if we were scum, we would have thrown in the towel by now.

Also, we could have easily had Ash lynched the other day when he as acting all crazy and everything. We could have easily pushed his lynch. Everyone was ready to vote for him.

PPE

This argument.  Why are you caught tomorrow?  I think this is a fake argument to be made.

[ashersky]

I think WW/BA's big mistake, if they are the scum team, was claiming something that directly relates to alignment.  To me, with a game setup that directly states "all roles are assigned regardless of alignment," it strikes as out of theme to then include a prize that rewards roles that do relate to alignment.

[Witherweaver]

IT IS OBVIOUS THAT WW AND BA ARE GUNNING FOR THAT ONE LAST MISLYNCH THEY NEED IN ORDER TO WIN THIS GAME!

Sorry about that.

Faust think about what you are saying. If we are scum, we are caught tomorrow no matter if a mislynch happens or not. Why would WW and I be trying so hard when nothing we do would matter and we would end up getting caught anyway? Seriously, if we were scum, we would have thrown in the towel by now.

Also, we could have easily had Ash lynched the other day when he as acting all crazy and everything. We could have easily pushed his lynch. Everyone was ready to vote for him.

PPE

This argument.  Why are you caught tomorrow?  I think this is a fake argument to be made.

That's not my argument, it's his.  And I'm not sure what he meant with this.

[Archetype]

Are you guys really going to no lynch? Its obviously faust/pingpongsam. If we no lynch today, I'm likely going to be NK'd and then faust and PPS will try to push WW or BAs lynch tommorow.

Part of me wants to lose just to be able to tell you "told you so". Why is it "obviously" me/pps? I thought ash is caught scum?

My scumread on ash lessened after the Love Doctor thing. You defending PPS like you are points to you and him being scumpartners.

[Witherweaver]

If faust is town (I think he is), he's dead tomorrow given his "I can cop someone!" statement, which wasn't the smartest thing he's ever said.

If pps or ash is scum, they'll kill him to protect themselves from the result.  Even if they are not, easy enough for scum to kill faust to make either of them look bad.

So if not Faust, then who?

[liopoil]

I really think all three of BA, faust, and WW are town now. faust looks so much like mislead town, and I really don't think ww/BA fakeclaimed masons, largely because of the Hydrad confirmation that they wouldn't have time to come up with that.

Everybody is just way too confident about everything. Bold statements are bad. That said, pps is definitely scum and we should lynch him.

If the team is BA-WW and they have a loved, gg.

I don't like no lynch, there are too many ways that could come back to bite us and I don't think it will do us much good.

[Archetype]

Day ends on Monday. I have (another) V/LA from Thursday to Saturday where I'll have no access.

[ashersky]

I really think all three of BA, faust, and WW are town now. faust looks so much like mislead town, and I really don't think ww/BA fakeclaimed masons, largely because of the Hydrad confirmation that they wouldn't have time to come up with that.

Everybody is just way too confident about everything. Bold statements are bad. That said, pps is definitely scum and we should lynch him.

If the team is BA-WW and they have a loved, gg.

I don't like no lynch, there are too many ways that could come back to bite us and I don't think it will do us much good.

The council was just three players?  Can the three council members expand on the whole thing, please?  I'm just not buying it as a prize.  It's lame.

[liopoil]

I really think all three of BA, faust, and WW are town now. faust looks so much like mislead town, and I really don't think ww/BA fakeclaimed masons, largely because of the Hydrad confirmation that they wouldn't have time to come up with that.

Everybody is just way too confident about everything. Bold statements are bad. That said, pps is definitely scum and we should lynch him.

If the team is BA-WW and they have a loved, gg.

I don't like no lynch, there are too many ways that could come back to bite us and I don't think it will do us much good.

The council was just three players?  Can the three council members expand on the whole thing, please?  I'm just not buying it as a prize.  It's lame.

the council was ichi, hydrad, ww, BA. ichi died, so only hydrad can confirm.

Also, if Hydrad were scum, ww or BA would have almost certainly died, so yet another reason to think he is town.

[pingpongsam]

I really think all three of BA, faust, and WW are town now. faust looks so much like mislead town, and I really don't think ww/BA fakeclaimed masons, largely because of the Hydrad confirmation that they wouldn't have time to come up with that.

Everybody is just way too confident about everything. Bold statements are bad. That said, pps is definitely scum and we should lynch him.

If the team is BA-WW and they have a loved, gg.

I don't like no lynch, there are too many ways that could come back to bite us and I don't think it will do us much good.

If you are town you will be proven a fool with this plan. I tend to think you town because scum would know that when I flip town you are the natural next lynch. Either way, lynching me because you think I am scum is foolish. Lynching me for some other end may not be terrible but I have yet to see any sensible end as such.

If you think WW and BA are scum vote WW, if you think they are town vote no lynch. Otherwise it's all a fool's errand, especially lynching me, I can promise you that.

[liopoil]

I really think all three of BA, faust, and WW are town now. faust looks so much like mislead town, and I really don't think ww/BA fakeclaimed masons, largely because of the Hydrad confirmation that they wouldn't have time to come up with that.

Everybody is just way too confident about everything. Bold statements are bad. That said, pps is definitely scum and we should lynch him.

If the team is BA-WW and they have a loved, gg.

I don't like no lynch, there are too many ways that could come back to bite us and I don't think it will do us much good.

If you are town you will be proven a fool with this plan. I tend to think you town because scum would know that when I flip town you are the natural next lynch. Either way, lynching me because you think I am scum is foolish. Lynching me for some other end may not be terrible but I have yet to see any sensible end as such.

If you think WW and BA are scum vote WW, if you think they are town vote no lynch. Otherwise it's all a fool's errand, especially lynching me, I can promise you that.

why is no lynch better than lynching scum?

perhaps I am a fool, but I don't think I am. Plus you are scum, so I'm not listening to you unless it is some sort of defense, which this certainly isn't.

[pingpongsam]

I really think all three of BA, faust, and WW are town now. faust looks so much like mislead town, and I really don't think ww/BA fakeclaimed masons, largely because of the Hydrad confirmation that they wouldn't have time to come up with that.

Everybody is just way too confident about everything. Bold statements are bad. That said, pps is definitely scum and we should lynch him.

If the team is BA-WW and they have a loved, gg.

I don't like no lynch, there are too many ways that could come back to bite us and I don't think it will do us much good.

If you are town you will be proven a fool with this plan. I tend to think you town because scum would know that when I flip town you are the natural next lynch. Either way, lynching me because you think I am scum is foolish. Lynching me for some other end may not be terrible but I have yet to see any sensible end as such.

If you think WW and BA are scum vote WW, if you think they are town vote no lynch. Otherwise it's all a fool's errand, especially lynching me, I can promise you that.

why is no lynch better than lynching scum?

perhaps I am a fool, but I don't think I am. Plus you are scum...

Lynching scum would be super, but you're not talking about doing that. You speak with certainty you cannot have unless you are scum. Lynching me is what scum wants to do. The last thing they want is for me to confirm my role tonight, well next to avoiding the lynch today, of course. Your certainty is foolish regardless of your alignment unless scum have arranged it such that all they need is a mislynch today.

[pingpongsam]

It is the lack of certainty about who is scum that means no lynch is a good idea. I think a mislynch now is end game.

[Witherweaver]

I really think all three of BA, faust, and WW are town now. faust looks so much like mislead town, and I really don't think ww/BA fakeclaimed masons, largely because of the Hydrad confirmation that they wouldn't have time to come up with that.

Everybody is just way too confident about everything. Bold statements are bad. That said, pps is definitely scum and we should lynch him.

If the team is BA-WW and they have a loved, gg.

I don't like no lynch, there are too many ways that could come back to bite us and I don't think it will do us much good.

The council was just three players?  Can the three council members expand on the whole thing, please?  I'm just not buying it as a prize.  It's lame.

Four players.  I received a in my person QT saying I have been invited to attend the Council, along with my fellow Mason, Beyond Awesome (in green text) and it explicitly said he was town-aligned (again, green text).  It  also said that two Neighbors (bold, not green) have been randomly selected from all other players to join as well.

Then it said that if I want to protect my identity, I can post under the pseudonym Alice.  It informed me that Beyond Awesome could post under the pseudonym Bob.  It then gave me a link to the Council QT.

[pingpongsam]

Finally faust's sentiments about wanting some schadenfreude mirror my own and I see that as towny as hell because I am towny as hell.

[Witherweaver]

First message in Council (from Jimmm) said Alice, Bob, Ichimaru and Hydrad were present.  First poster was BA (as Bob). 

When I came in (the QT opened up at night and I didn't see it until the next morning), Bob had posted a few messages from the previous night and Hydrad had checked in.  I decided to post under Alice as well. (BA's third message was to tell me (Alice) he knew my identity and to use pseudonyms until today.)   

[Witherweaver]

  lynching me because you think I am scum is foolish.

Great out of context quote!

[Archetype]

Finally faust's sentiments about wanting some schadenfreude mirror my own and I see that as towny as hell because I am towny as hell.

You speak with certainty you cannot have unless you are scum.

[Archetype]

First message in Council (from Jimmm) said Alice, Bob, Ichimaru and Hydrad were present.  First poster was BA (as Bob). 

When I came in (the QT opened up at night and I didn't see it until the next morning), Bob had posted a few messages from the previous night and Hydrad had checked in.  I decided to post under Alice as well. (BA's third message was to tell me (Alice) he knew my identity and to use pseudonyms until today.)

WW, don't be super-duper specific or you may get modkilled.

[Witherweaver]

I really think all three of BA, faust, and WW are town now. faust looks so much like mislead town, and I really don't think ww/BA fakeclaimed masons, largely because of the Hydrad confirmation that they wouldn't have time to come up with that.

Everybody is just way too confident about everything. Bold statements are bad. That said, pps is definitely scum and we should lynch him.

If the team is BA-WW and they have a loved, gg.

I don't like no lynch, there are too many ways that could come back to bite us and I don't think it will do us much good.

The council was just three players?  Can the three council members expand on the whole thing, please?  I'm just not buying it as a prize.  It's lame.

the council was ichi, hydrad, ww, BA. ichi died, so only hydrad can confirm.

Also, if Hydrad were scum, ww or BA would have almost certainly died, so yet another reason to think he is town.

Well no, killing one of us confirms the other.  Scum team wouldn't want to confirm our claim if they can possibly get us lynched.

[Witherweaver]

First message in Council (from Jimmm) said Alice, Bob, Ichimaru and Hydrad were present.  First poster was BA (as Bob). 

When I came in (the QT opened up at night and I didn't see it until the next morning), Bob had posted a few messages from the previous night and Hydrad had checked in.  I decided to post under Alice as well. (BA's third message was to tell me (Alice) he knew my identity and to use pseudonyms until today.)

WW, don't be super-duper specific or you may get modkilled.

It was stated I could paraphrase, so I believe I was within those confines.

[liopoil]

It is the lack of certainty about who is scum that means no lynch is a good idea. I think a mislynch now is end game.

how, unless scum are loved, AND their kill goes through, AND town can't get a vig?

but you are not a mislynch! I would take no lynch over a lynch on anyone but you, which may be what happens.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: no lynch

[Archetype]

First message in Council (from Jimmm) said Alice, Bob, Ichimaru and Hydrad were present.  First poster was BA (as Bob). 

When I came in (the QT opened up at night and I didn't see it until the next morning), Bob had posted a few messages from the previous night and Hydrad had checked in.  I decided to post under Alice as well. (BA's third message was to tell me (Alice) he knew my identity and to use pseudonyms until today.)

WW, don't be super-duper specific or you may get modkilled.

It was stated I could paraphrase, so I believe I was within those confines.

I was meaning more with your PM.

[Witherweaver]

Also, my first message was to tell Bob (BA) that I knew his identity and he was confirmed town to me.  So we couldn't have just came up with the Mason thing today.

[ashersky]

Also, my first message was to tell Bob (BA) that I knew his identity and he was confirmed town to me.  So we couldn't have just came up with the Mason thing today.

Unless your first messages were in the scum QT that night.

[Hydrad]

I really think all three of BA, faust, and WW are town now. faust looks so much like mislead town, and I really don't think ww/BA fakeclaimed masons, largely because of the Hydrad confirmation that they wouldn't have time to come up with that.

Everybody is just way too confident about everything. Bold statements are bad. That said, pps is definitely scum and we should lynch him.

If the team is BA-WW and they have a loved, gg.

I don't like no lynch, there are too many ways that could come back to bite us and I don't think it will do us much good.

The council was just three players?  Can the three council members expand on the whole thing, please?  I'm just not buying it as a prize.  It's lame.

The only thing that I don't know if everyone knows yet is that we can use the QT every night. its been mentioned a couple times but no one seems to of noticed so I'll just say it again so everyone knows.

[ashersky]

Did Ichi say anything of note in the QT?

[Hydrad]

Also, my first message was to tell Bob (BA) that I knew his identity and he was confirmed town to me.  So we couldn't have just came up with the Mason thing today.

Unless your first messages were in the scum QT that night.

BA's first few messages were almost right when it opened. WW was a bit later when he mentioned the masons but still I feel for time reasons to come up with an idea of fake claiming masons doesn't seem right to me. But still there is that chance. I would say i'm 80-90% sure that they arn't scum that came up with the mason plan

Unfortunatly I realize you can't trust me with my percentages and have to go on your own instinct.

[Archetype]

I really think all three of BA, faust, and WW are town now. faust looks so much like mislead town, and I really don't think ww/BA fakeclaimed masons, largely because of the Hydrad confirmation that they wouldn't have time to come up with that.

Everybody is just way too confident about everything. Bold statements are bad. That said, pps is definitely scum and we should lynch him.

If the team is BA-WW and they have a loved, gg.

I don't like no lynch, there are too many ways that could come back to bite us and I don't think it will do us much good.

The council was just three players?  Can the three council members expand on the whole thing, please?  I'm just not buying it as a prize.  It's lame.

The only thing that I don't know if everyone knows yet is that we can use the QT every night. its been mentioned a couple times but no one seems to of noticed so I'll just say it again so everyone knows.

This definitely points to BA/WW being Town. Why would it continue to be open? As soon as no one claims Alice or Bob the following day, the QT becomes useless because the other two players in the QT know they are talking to scum since they didn't claim to be Alice or Bob.

PPE: 2

[Hydrad]

Did Ichi say anything of note in the QT?

He didn't say much. basically all he posted was about the love doctor and what it does.

We had a small discussion on who we thought was scum and other then that he didn't really say anything

[liopoil]

Hydrad, Beyond Awesome, Ashersky - two of you should vote for pps. faust clearly won't and of course neither will pps.

I don't believe that anything besides pps or no lynch has a chance, so the choice is between those two.

[Beyond Awesome]

Did Ichi say anything of note in the QT?

He brought up the Love Doctor and mentioned that you were his top scum read.

[Hydrad]

Honeslty one of my biggest reasons for not thinking BA and WW are masons is why would they claim that if they were scum. couldn't they just lie and say they wern't alice or bob and then we have no idea who the pair is?

[ashersky]

This definitely points to BA/WW being Town. Why would it continue to be open? As soon as no one claims Alice or Bob the following day, the QT becomes useless because the other two players in the QT know they are talking to scum since they didn't claim to be Alice or Bob.

I don't know.  It could mean BA/WW is town and the other to are scum.  Except IG died and flipped town, so that's not it.  That still leaves BA/WW are scum and Ichi/Hydrad are town as options.

Scum teams claiming masons is a thing.  It's not unheard of.  It works well if they are believed.

[Beyond Awesome]

Honeslty one of my biggest reasons for not thinking BA and WW are masons is why would they claim that if they were scum. couldn't they just lie and say they wern't alice or bob and then we have no idea who the pair is?

Honestly, if we were scum, we probably would not have bothered to post their in the first place. Why bother?

[Archetype]

Honeslty one of my biggest reasons for not thinking BA and WW are masons is why would they claim that if they were scum. couldn't they just lie and say they wern't alice or bob and then we have no idea who the pair is?

They could see it as a risky grab for Towncred.

[ashersky]

Honeslty one of my biggest reasons for not thinking BA and WW are masons is why would they claim that if they were scum. couldn't they just lie and say they wern't alice or bob and then we have no idea who the pair is?

That's the other option, yes.  You just don't claim and no one claims and as mentioned everyone knows Alice/Bob are scum, but not who they are.

I'm trying to figure out how Council was a reward for town.  As is, it doesn't work for me.  Like, the power of masons in something like C9++ or asher9++ is that once you confirm them (i.e., one dies from lynch or NK), it provides an IC and setup information.  A monster reward that is basically "lynch one to get an IC later" isn't a reward.

[ashersky]

Honeslty one of my biggest reasons for not thinking BA and WW are masons is why would they claim that if they were scum. couldn't they just lie and say they wern't alice or bob and then we have no idea who the pair is?

Honestly, if we were scum, we probably would not have bothered to post their in the first place. Why bother?

I assume you mean in the Council QT?  Well, why does scum post anywhere?  To sow confusions and dissent.  The QT is helpful for that.

[Witherweaver]

Ash, the other two were chosen randomly.  It said this  in our QTs

[ashersky]

Hydrad, Beyond Awesome, Ashersky - two of you should vote for pps. faust clearly won't and of course neither will pps.

I don't believe that anything besides pps or no lynch has a chance, so the choice is between those two.

I really prefer BA at this point.  Or you, I suppose.  But I'm coming around to the mason claim for cred theory.  It's a stretch, but it's definitely something I would have thought of.

I think a BA/WW lynch is the most informative, as it creates an IC if we're wrong.  The problem with lynching elsewhere, literally anyone else, is if we're wrong, there's nothing learned in relation to anyone else.

I don't like No Lynch at this point.  Still mulling it over.

[ashersky]

Ash, the other two were chosen randomly.  It said this  in our QTs

Scumslip?  Unless you were masons from the start, you two were also chosen "randomly" to be confirmed town to each other as masons.  Also, you said you received PMs regarding this, now it's in your QTs?  Like, your scum QTs?

vote: WW

[Witherweaver]

Dude.  We have personal QTs in this game.

[Beyond Awesome]

Hydrad, Beyond Awesome, Ashersky - two of you should vote for pps. faust clearly won't and of course neither will pps.

I don't believe that anything besides pps or no lynch has a chance, so the choice is between those two.

I really prefer BA at this point.  Or you, I suppose.  But I'm coming around to the mason claim for cred theory.  It's a stretch, but it's definitely something I would have thought of.

I think a BA/WW lynch is the most informative, as it creates an IC if we're wrong.  The problem with lynching elsewhere, literally anyone else, is if we're wrong, there's nothing learned in relation to anyone else.

I don't like No Lynch at this point.  Still mulling it over.

Except we won't gain an IC because surely the other one of us will be NK'd.

[ashersky]

Parse that post.  It has extra spaces between "this" and "in" where something was deleted.  He's missing the punctuation at the end.

His use of "other two were chosen randomly" screams "me and BA weren't a random selection" to me.

Anyone else with thoughts?

[ashersky]

Dude.  We have personal QTs in this game.

Only one, not multiple.  But you used the plural.  And you said PMs in your explanations earlier.

[ashersky]

I really think all three of BA, faust, and WW are town now. faust looks so much like mislead town, and I really don't think ww/BA fakeclaimed masons, largely because of the Hydrad confirmation that they wouldn't have time to come up with that.

Everybody is just way too confident about everything. Bold statements are bad. That said, pps is definitely scum and we should lynch him.

If the team is BA-WW and they have a loved, gg.

I don't like no lynch, there are too many ways that could come back to bite us and I don't think it will do us much good.

The council was just three players?  Can the three council members expand on the whole thing, please?  I'm just not buying it as a prize.  It's lame.

Four players.  I received a in my person QT saying I have been invited to attend the Council, along with my fellow Mason, Beyond Awesome (in green text) and it explicitly said he was town-aligned (again, green text).  It  also said that two Neighbors (bold, not green) have been randomly selected from all other players to join as well.

Then it said that if I want to protect my identity, I can post under the pseudonym Alice.  It informed me that Beyond Awesome could post under the pseudonym Bob.  It then gave me a link to the Council QT.

No, I was wrong.

[Witherweaver]

Did you even read what I posted before?  It said that the other two Neighbors were chosen randomly from everyone else.

[ashersky]

The QTs thing was incorrect.  He said QTs from the beginning.  I'll note an odd deletion in that post I quoted, though.

[Hydrad]

I got it in my QT so I'm betting they got it in their QT also.

[ashersky]

Did you even read what I posted before?  It said that the other two Neighbors were chosen randomly from everyone else.

But why would you say it that way?  Why were you and BA NOT randomly chosen from all town?  Explain that for me.

That's why I think you scumslipped.

[ashersky]

I got it in my QT so I'm betting they got it in their QT also.

Right, I admitted that error in my reasoning.  I'm ignoring the PM/QT thing as it doesn't exist.

[Witherweaver]

Yes, our QTs.  I have one. BA has one.  We received the same information (symmetrical about each other).  It was in both of our QTs

And now I have 2 QTs

[Beyond Awesome]

Did you even read what I posted before?  It said that the other two Neighbors were chosen randomly from everyone else.

But why would you say it that way?  Why were you and BA NOT randomly chosen from all town?  Explain that for me.

That's why I think you scumslipped.

Who says we weren't chosen randomly?

[Witherweaver]

Did you even read what I posted before?  It said that the other two Neighbors were chosen randomly from everyone else.

But why would you say it that way?  Why were you and BA NOT randomly chosen from all town?  Explain that for me.

That's why I think you scumslipped.

We were chosen to be Masons. THEN 2 neighbors were chosen.

[ashersky]

Did you even read what I posted before?  It said that the other two Neighbors were chosen randomly from everyone else.

But why would you say it that way?  Why were you and BA NOT randomly chosen from all town?  Explain that for me.

That's why I think you scumslipped.

Look, here's how it could have happened:

1)  All 4 players are randomly chosen from those alive, mod randomly chooses two of them who are town to mod-confirm alignment to each other; or
2)  2 town players are randomly chosen from those alive and mod-confirmed town to each other, then 2 more players are randomly chosen from those alive.

There are probably variations, but you get the gist.

Your post made it sound like WW/BA were specific, then two players were randomly chosen to join you.

[ashersky]

Did you even read what I posted before?  It said that the other two Neighbors were chosen randomly from everyone else.

But why would you say it that way?  Why were you and BA NOT randomly chosen from all town?  Explain that for me.

That's why I think you scumslipped.

We were chosen to be Masons. THEN 2 neighbors were chosen.

How do you know that?  That wasn't part of your explanation.  You are just making that up.

[ashersky]

Did you even read what I posted before?  It said that the other two Neighbors were chosen randomly from everyone else.

But why would you say it that way?  Why were you and BA NOT randomly chosen from all town?  Explain that for me.

That's why I think you scumslipped.

Who says we weren't chosen randomly?

WW did.

By explicitly saying "the other two" were chosen randomly, he is implicitly saying "the first two" were not chosen randomly.  Otherwise, he would say "we" were chosen randomly or "all" were chosen randomly or "first we and then the other two" were chosen randomly.

[Witherweaver]

Them being random from all other players is relevant as there is no alignment information in the fact that they were selected.

[Witherweaver]

IT IS IN MY QT

[ashersky]

IT IS IN MY QT

Your QT says "hi, you and BA were randomly selected to be masons, then I randomly selected two other players to be nieghbors with you."  (Paraphrased, of course.)

[Beyond Awesome]

IT IS IN MY QT

Your QT says "hi, you and BA were randomly selected to be masons, then I randomly selected two other players to be nieghbors with you."  (Paraphrased, of course.)

Yes.

[Witherweaver]

It says the selection is random from all other players.

We must exist first for "other" to make sense.

[Witherweaver]

It didn't say we were selected randomly, but I assume we were

[ashersky]

It says the selection is random from all other players.

We must exist first for "other" to make sense.

Right.  As scum partners.

[ashersky]

IT IS IN MY QT

Your QT says "hi, you and BA were randomly selected to be masons, then I randomly selected two other players to be nieghbors with you."  (Paraphrased, of course.)

Yes.

It didn't say we were selected randomly, but I assume we were

Which one is lying?

[Hydrad]

IT IS IN MY QT

Your QT says "hi, you and BA were randomly selected to be masons, then I randomly selected two other players to be nieghbors with you."  (Paraphrased, of course.)

Yes.

It didn't say we were selected randomly, but I assume we were

Which one is lying?

I was just about to say that I think you call scumslip way to much. and then this happens and theres a chance there is a scumslip

[Hydrad]

unvote again as this is interesting.

[Beyond Awesome]

IT IS IN MY QT

Your QT says "hi, you and BA were randomly selected to be masons, then I randomly selected two other players to be nieghbors with you."  (Paraphrased, of course.)

Yes.

It didn't say we were selected randomly, but I assume we were

Which one is lying?

Sorry, Ash. I went back and reread my QT. What WW says is correct. I thought it said WW and I were chosen randomly, but it says WW is my fellow mason and our two neighbors were chosen at random. It does not say WW and I were chosen randomly, but I assumed we were.

[liopoil]

Is the council room QT open? Will it be this night? Has this been answered already and I should be reading more carefully?

[Hydrad]

Is the council room QT open? Will it be this night? Has this been answered already and I should be reading more carefully?

council is open for us every night it seems.

[liopoil]

This is ridiculous. Not a scumslip.

Now there are 3 people willing to vote for WW (faust, ash, pps). pps and ash are also possibly the scumteam, interesting.

Well, I'm not willing to vote for WW, and neither is WW or BA. So for this to go through, both hydrad and arch need to be convinced. Please tell me this won't happen, guys.

Arch may be scum though, and I actually think he is more likely to be scum than ash now.

So hydrad, DON'T DO IT

[Hydrad]

This is ridiculous. Not a scumslip.

Now there are 3 people willing to vote for WW (faust, ash, pps). pps and ash are also possibly the scumteam, interesting.

Well, I'm not willing to vote for WW, and neither is WW or BA. So for this to go through, both hydrad and arch need to be convinced. Please tell me this won't happen, guys.

Arch may be scum though, and I actually think he is more likely to be scum than ash now.

So hydrad, DON'T DO IT

Don't worry. I'm one of the ones who really believes WW/BA. Its going to take me a decent amount to swap it today.

[ashersky]

This is ridiculous. Not a scumslip.

Now there are 3 people willing to vote for WW (faust, ash, pps). pps and ash are also possibly the scumteam, interesting.

Well, I'm not willing to vote for WW, and neither is WW or BA. So for this to go through, both hydrad and arch need to be convinced. Please tell me this won't happen, guys.

Arch may be scum though, and I actually think he is more likely to be scum than ash now.

So hydrad, DON'T DO IT

Would you vote for BA?

[ashersky]

The problem is, if one is scum, both are scum, right?  Willing to lynch one has to be willing to lynch the other.

[Archetype]

This is ridiculous. Not a scumslip.

Now there are 3 people willing to vote for WW (faust, ash, pps). pps and ash are also possibly the scumteam, interesting.

Well, I'm not willing to vote for WW, and neither is WW or BA. So for this to go through, both hydrad and arch need to be convinced. Please tell me this won't happen, guys.

Arch may be scum though, and I actually think he is more likely to be scum than ash now.

So hydrad, DON'T DO IT

liopoil, who do you think the scum team is?

[ashersky]

This is ridiculous. Not a scumslip.

Can you explain the inconsistencies?

[liopoil]

This is ridiculous. Not a scumslip.

Now there are 3 people willing to vote for WW (faust, ash, pps). pps and ash are also possibly the scumteam, interesting.

Well, I'm not willing to vote for WW, and neither is WW or BA. So for this to go through, both hydrad and arch need to be convinced. Please tell me this won't happen, guys.

Arch may be scum though, and I actually think he is more likely to be scum than ash now.

So hydrad, DON'T DO IT

liopoil, who do you think the scum team is?

either pps-ashersky or pps-archetype.

[liopoil]

This is ridiculous. Not a scumslip.

Can you explain the inconsistencies?

Yes.

[liopoil]

This is ridiculous. Not a scumslip.

Now there are 3 people willing to vote for WW (faust, ash, pps). pps and ash are also possibly the scumteam, interesting.

Well, I'm not willing to vote for WW, and neither is WW or BA. So for this to go through, both hydrad and arch need to be convinced. Please tell me this won't happen, guys.

Arch may be scum though, and I actually think he is more likely to be scum than ash now.

So hydrad, DON'T DO IT

Don't worry. I'm one of the ones who really believes WW/BA. Its going to take me a decent amount to swap it today.

Good, now vote for PPS!

[Archetype]

Now I'm starting to come around to an ash lynch. It's just too big of a risk if he is indeed Loved and left alive tomorrow.

[ashersky]

There's no possible way one of BA/WW is scum and one isn't, right?  You'd need lying town for that.

So, if BA/WW is not the team, who is (from my perspective)?

It has to include liopoil.  So, that means:

lio/pps
lio/arch
lio/hydrad
lio/faust

That's the order of likelihood for me.

[liopoil]

Now I'm starting to come around to an ash lynch. It's just too big of a risk if he is indeed Loved and left alive tomorrow.

who's his partner you think? If it's pps, then don't move your vote. If it's somebody else, you're probably wrong.

There's no possible way one of BA/WW is scum and one isn't, right?  You'd need lying town for that.

So, if BA/WW is not the team, who is (from my perspective)?

It has to include liopoil.  So, that means:

lio/pps
lio/arch
lio/hydrad
lio/faust

That's the order of likelihood for me.

it has to include me, huh?

[Archetype]

There's no possible way one of BA/WW is scum and one isn't, right?  You'd need lying town for that.

So, if BA/WW is not the team, who is (from my perspective)?

It has to include liopoil.  So, that means:

lio/pps
lio/arch
lio/hydrad
lio/faust

That's the order of likelihood for me.

In each of those pairings, who's the dice destroyer?

[ashersky]

There's no possible way one of BA/WW is scum and one isn't, right?  You'd need lying town for that.

So, if BA/WW is not the team, who is (from my perspective)?

It has to include liopoil.  So, that means:

lio/pps
lio/arch
lio/hydrad
lio/faust

That's the order of likelihood for me.

it has to include me, huh?

I think so.  That's an if though, contingent on WW/BA.

[Witherweaver]

This is ridiculous. Not a scumslip.

Can you explain the inconsistencies?

There isn't an inconsistency.  Your paraphrase was almost entirely correct except for the extra "randomly".  That we were randomly selected is the obvious assumption, it just didn't explicitly say so in the QT.

You are being absurd, and you know it.

[pingpongsam]

I don't think lio is scum or he wouldn't push me so hard unless the goal is to make him the lynch target tomorrow so his partner can achieve something he needs the time to achieve.

[pingpongsam]

I don't think lio is scum or he wouldn't push me so hard unless the goal is to make him the lynch target tomorrow so his partner can achieve something he needs the time to achieve.

In which case no lynch works as well.

[ashersky]

In each of those pairings, who's the dice destroyer?

I don't know.  No one has claimed dice destroyer.  It might not even be a role.  Maybe it's a factional power.  Maybe it's a cover story for scum spending dice.  Maybe you are the dice destroyer who can roll one extra "destroyed" dice the day after you target someone.  Who knows?

[ashersky]

This is ridiculous. Not a scumslip.

Can you explain the inconsistencies?

There isn't an inconsistency.  Your paraphrase was almost entirely correct except for the extra "randomly".  That we were randomly selected is the obvious assumption, it just didn't explicitly say so in the QT.

You are being absurd, and you know it.

I'm not being absurd.  I asked if my paraphrase was right.  One of you said yes, the other said no.  In fact, the one who said yes went so far as to then say he made a mistake and double-checked in his QT.  If there was no inconsistency, why did he own up to it?

You are being absurd because you got caught.

[Archetype]

Now I'm starting to come around to an ash lynch. It's just too big of a risk if he is indeed Loved and left alive tomorrow.

who's his partner you think? If it's pps, then don't move your vote. If it's somebody else, you're probably wrong.

You or Faust. Or PPS. I'm not quite sure. ashersky could easily be busing you and faust and him could be scummates working together to lynch one of the Masons and kill the other that night. But both of those scenarios are big ifs. PPS doesn't make 100% sense as a partner, but he's just so scummy that he has to be scum.

But I guess if we do lynch his partner, he won't be invincible tomorrow if he is Loved.

[ashersky]

If "random selection" was the obvious assumption for the masons, you would not have written "the other" when talking about random selection.  I'm saying your subconscious betrayed you.

[Archetype]

In each of those pairings, who's the dice destroyer?

I don't know.  No one has claimed dice destroyer.  It might not even be a role.  Maybe it's a factional power.  Maybe it's a cover story for scum spending dice.  Maybe you are the dice destroyer who can roll one extra "destroyed" dice the day after you target someone.  Who knows?

There's evidence that there is a second entity besides the Town Thief that has been getting rid of dice.

[Witherweaver]

Dice destroying ability exists. BA lost dice at D2 start and Yuma stole from Box. I think factional ability is unlikely.

[Beyond Awesome]

This is ridiculous. Not a scumslip.

Can you explain the inconsistencies?

There isn't an inconsistency.  Your paraphrase was almost entirely correct except for the extra "randomly".  That we were randomly selected is the obvious assumption, it just didn't explicitly say so in the QT.

You are being absurd, and you know it.

I'm not being absurd.  I asked if my paraphrase was right.  One of you said yes, the other said no.  In fact, the one who said yes went so far as to then say he made a mistake and double-checked in his QT.  If there was no inconsistency, why did he own up to it?

You are being absurd because you got caught.

Actually, I really did think my QT message said we were randomly chosen. So, I went back and double-checked what it said and the QT does not say WW and I are randomly chosen. It does say the neighbors are randomly chosen though.

[Archetype]

I don't think lio is scum or he wouldn't push me so hard unless the goal is to make him the lynch target tomorrow so his partner can achieve something he needs the time to achieve.

AKA ash.

[ashersky]

In each of those pairings, who's the dice destroyer?

I don't know.  No one has claimed dice destroyer.  It might not even be a role.  Maybe it's a factional power.  Maybe it's a cover story for scum spending dice.  Maybe you are the dice destroyer who can roll one extra "destroyed" dice the day after you target someone.  Who knows?

There's evidence that there is a second entity besides the Town Thief that has been getting rid of dice.

Well, we have two thieves claimed.  That's two right there.

Dice destroying ability exists. BA lost dice at D2 start and Yuma stole from Box. I think factional ability is unlikely.

Isn't faust a claimed thief?

Why is factional ability any more likely or unlikely than anything else?

[Witherweaver]

If "random selection" was the obvious assumption for the masons, you would not have written "the other" when talking about random selection.  I'm saying your subconscious betrayed you.

God damn, are you trying to be dense?  There were two selections.  One selection for 2 Masons, one selection for 2 Neighbors.

[ashersky]

This is ridiculous. Not a scumslip.

Can you explain the inconsistencies?

There isn't an inconsistency.  Your paraphrase was almost entirely correct except for the extra "randomly".  That we were randomly selected is the obvious assumption, it just didn't explicitly say so in the QT.

You are being absurd, and you know it.

I'm not being absurd.  I asked if my paraphrase was right.  One of you said yes, the other said no.  In fact, the one who said yes went so far as to then say he made a mistake and double-checked in his QT.  If there was no inconsistency, why did he own up to it?

You are being absurd because you got caught.

Actually, I really did think my QT message said we were randomly chosen. So, I went back and double-checked what it said and the QT does not say WW and I are randomly chosen. It does say the neighbors are randomly chosen though.

See WW, BA continues to agree that there was an inconsistency between your two answers, even though you deny it.

[Witherweaver]

And my QT uses the word "other"

[ashersky]

If "random selection" was the obvious assumption for the masons, you would not have written "the other" when talking about random selection.  I'm saying your subconscious betrayed you.

God damn, are you trying to be dense?  There were two selections.  One selection for 2 Masons, one selection for 2 Neighbors.

You keep saying that, but you don't know that.  You and he both confirmed you were not informed of that.

[liopoil]

This is ridiculous. Not a scumslip.

Can you explain the inconsistencies?

There isn't an inconsistency.  Your paraphrase was almost entirely correct except for the extra "randomly".  That we were randomly selected is the obvious assumption, it just didn't explicitly say so in the QT.

You are being absurd, and you know it.

Agreed 100%.

But folks, as I've said since early on this day, ww/BA lynch isn't happening today, period. Stop trying to lynch them. Stop responding to posts trying to lynch them.

[ashersky]

And my QT uses the word "other"

Right.  Here's a way to write it in your scum QT:

"The town defeated the monster and has been rewarded with Council.  You must post in this QT (link) tonight.  The others in the QT will be randomly selected from remaining players.  You may create aliases to post, using the names Alice and Bob."

[Beyond Awesome]

This is ridiculous. Not a scumslip.

Can you explain the inconsistencies?

There isn't an inconsistency.  Your paraphrase was almost entirely correct except for the extra "randomly".  That we were randomly selected is the obvious assumption, it just didn't explicitly say so in the QT.

You are being absurd, and you know it.

I'm not being absurd.  I asked if my paraphrase was right.  One of you said yes, the other said no.  In fact, the one who said yes went so far as to then say he made a mistake and double-checked in his QT.  If there was no inconsistency, why did he own up to it?

You are being absurd because you got caught.

Actually, I really did think my QT message said we were randomly chosen. So, I went back and double-checked what it said and the QT does not say WW and I are randomly chosen. It does say the neighbors are randomly chosen though.

See WW, BA continues to agree that there was an inconsistency between your two answers, even though you deny it.

No. I just did not remember the exact wording of my QT. I thought it did say WW and I were randomly chosen, and I remembered incorrectly.

[ashersky]

This is ridiculous. Not a scumslip.

Can you explain the inconsistencies?

There isn't an inconsistency.  Your paraphrase was almost entirely correct except for the extra "randomly".  That we were randomly selected is the obvious assumption, it just didn't explicitly say so in the QT.

You are being absurd, and you know it.

Agreed 100%.

But folks, as I've said since early on this day, ww/BA lynch isn't happening today, period. Stop trying to lynch them. Stop responding to posts trying to lynch them.

8 alive, takes 5 to lynch.  You are saying you will force a no lynch before ensuring we get a lynch today?  That's what you are doing by trying to stop all discussion about lynching.

[ashersky]

No. I just did not remember the exact wording of my QT. I thought it did say WW and I were randomly chosen, and I remembered incorrectly.

In answering the exact same question, the two "masons" gave opposite answers.  That's an inconsistency which you are attempting to squirrel away through "misrememberance" arguments.

[Beyond Awesome]

No. I just did not remember the exact wording of my QT. I thought it did say WW and I were randomly chosen, and I remembered incorrectly.

In answering the exact same question, the two "masons" gave opposite answers.  That's an inconsistency which you are attempting to squirrel away through "misrememberance" arguments.

Dude, how am I supposed to remember the exact wording of a message I get in my QT? It did say players were chosen randomly. For some reason, I thought it also said WW and I were also chosen randomly.

[Witherweaver]

No. I just did not remember the exact wording of my QT. I thought it did say WW and I were randomly chosen, and I remembered incorrectly.

In answering the exact same question, the two "masons" gave opposite answers.  That's an inconsistency which you are attempting to squirrel away through "misrememberance" arguments.

Okay I'm convinced.

Vote: Ashersky

If he's not scum he's just trying to lose.

[liopoil]

This is ridiculous. Not a scumslip.

Can you explain the inconsistencies?

There isn't an inconsistency.  Your paraphrase was almost entirely correct except for the extra "randomly".  That we were randomly selected is the obvious assumption, it just didn't explicitly say so in the QT.

You are being absurd, and you know it.

Agreed 100%.

But folks, as I've said since early on this day, ww/BA lynch isn't happening today, period. Stop trying to lynch them. Stop responding to posts trying to lynch them.

8 alive, takes 5 to lynch.  You are saying you will force a no lynch before ensuring we get a lynch today?  That's what you are doing by trying to stop all discussion about lynching.

Yes, here are my priorities today:

1st choice - Lynch pps
2nd choice - No lynch
3rd choice - lynch somebody else

[ashersky]

8 alive (6 town), 5 to lynch on D4.  A loved scum means 6 to lynch.  No lynch means...

7 alive (5 town), 4 to lynch on D5.  A loved scum means 5 to lynch.  No lynch means loved scum auto-wins.  Mislynch means loved scum auto-wins.  So D5 is lylo for town if we no lynch today and scum is or gets loved.

Instead...8 alive (6 town), 5 to lynch on D4.  Mislynch means...
6 alive (4 town), 4 to lynch on D4.  A loved scum means 5 to lynch.  Scum auto-wins.

So, the risks are, if a scum is loved already, or can get it tonight, the game is over with a mislynch today.  A no lynch just pushes that scenario to tomorrow, but with one less mislynch option (unless scum no kills).

To me, while no lynch is "safe" it is just delaying the inevitable.

[Witherweaver]

And my QT uses the word "other"

Right.  Here's a way to write it in your scum QT:

"The town defeated the monster and has been rewarded with Council.  You must post in this QT (link) tonight.  The others in the QT will be randomly selected from remaining players.  You may create aliases to post, using the names Alice and Bob."

And there is zero reason to think this is true, unless you're trying blindly to push for mislynches.

[ashersky]

No. I just did not remember the exact wording of my QT. I thought it did say WW and I were randomly chosen, and I remembered incorrectly.

In answering the exact same question, the two "masons" gave opposite answers.  That's an inconsistency which you are attempting to squirrel away through "misrememberance" arguments.

Okay I'm convinced.

Vote: Ashersky

If he's not scum he's just trying to lose.

Scummy post.

[ashersky]

And my QT uses the word "other"

Right.  Here's a way to write it in your scum QT:

"The town defeated the monster and has been rewarded with Council.  You must post in this QT (link) tonight.  The others in the QT will be randomly selected from remaining players.  You may create aliases to post, using the names Alice and Bob."

And there is zero reason to think this is true, unless you're trying blindly to push for mislynches.

Just as much reason to think what you are claiming is true.  It's 100000000% unverified that you two are masons.  There is literally nothing to prove it.  It's just the word of two players.

I still have yet to see anyone posit reasoning for how Council was a town reward if all it was was this.

[Witherweaver]

This:

Ash, the other two were chosen randomly.  It said this  in our QTs

was a phone post in response to this:

This definitely points to BA/WW being Town. Why would it continue to be open? As soon as no one claims Alice or Bob the following day, the QT becomes useless because the other two players in the QT know they are talking to scum since they didn't claim to be Alice or Bob.

I don't know.  It could mean BA/WW is town and the other to are scum.  Except IG died and flipped town, so that's not it.  That still leaves BA/WW are scum and Ichi/Hydrad are town as options.

Scum teams claiming masons is a thing.  It's not unheard of.  It works well if they are believed.

The reason for me posting this is to show that the Council setup is independent of alignment of IG/Hydrad.  Obviously it couldn't just be four random players, because there would be no guarantee scum would be dead and you can't have Masons with one town.    My best educated guess is that Jimmm randomly chose two remaining town players to make Masons, and then randomly chose two more players from everyone else left alive to be in the QT. 

This is also the most obvious thing, and almost entirely confirmed.

[ashersky]

Yes, here are my priorities today:

1st choice - Lynch pps
2nd choice - No lynch
3rd choice - lynch somebody else

Why are you resigned to the "if BA/WW are lying, they deserve to win" mentality?

[pingpongsam]

8 alive (6 town), 5 to lynch on D4.  A loved scum means 6 to lynch.  No lynch means...

7 alive (5 town), 4 to lynch on D5.  A loved scum means 5 to lynch.  No lynch means loved scum auto-wins.  Mislynch means loved scum auto-wins.  So D5 is lylo for town if we no lynch today and scum is or gets loved.

Instead...8 alive (6 town), 5 to lynch on D4.  Mislynch means...
6 alive (4 town), 4 to lynch on D4.  A loved scum means 5 to lynch.  Scum auto-wins.

So, the risks are, if a scum is loved already, or can get it tonight, the game is over with a mislynch today.  A no lynch just pushes that scenario to tomorrow, but with one less mislynch option (unless scum no kills).

To me, while no lynch is "safe" it is just delaying the inevitable.

I agree but the lynch pool will be 1 smaller, we will have a reward and hopefully I can confirm my role.

[Witherweaver]

And my QT uses the word "other"

Right.  Here's a way to write it in your scum QT:

"The town defeated the monster and has been rewarded with Council.  You must post in this QT (link) tonight.  The others in the QT will be randomly selected from remaining players.  You may create aliases to post, using the names Alice and Bob."

And there is zero reason to think this is true, unless you're trying blindly to push for mislynches.

Just as much reason to think what you are claiming is true.  It's 100000000% unverified that you two are masons.  There is literally nothing to prove it.  It's just the word of two players.

I still have yet to see anyone posit reasoning for how Council was a town reward if all it was was this.

Three players.  We have Hydrad to verify everything we said in Council QT.  Even if you allow some uncertainty, it's got to be 90-95% certain that BA and I didn't plan anything.

Plus the fact that it makes no sense.

[ashersky]

This:

Ash, the other two were chosen randomly.  It said this  in our QTs

was a phone post in response to this:

This definitely points to BA/WW being Town. Why would it continue to be open? As soon as no one claims Alice or Bob the following day, the QT becomes useless because the other two players in the QT know they are talking to scum since they didn't claim to be Alice or Bob.

I don't know.  It could mean BA/WW is town and the other to are scum.  Except IG died and flipped town, so that's not it.  That still leaves BA/WW are scum and Ichi/Hydrad are town as options.

Scum teams claiming masons is a thing.  It's not unheard of.  It works well if they are believed.

The reason for me posting this is to show that the Council setup is independent of alignment of IG/Hydrad.  Obviously it couldn't just be four random players, because there would be no guarantee scum would be dead and you can't have Masons with one town.    My best educated guess is that Jimmm randomly chose two remaining town players to make Masons, and then randomly chose two more players from everyone else left alive to be in the QT. 

This is also the most obvious thing, and almost entirely confirmed.

Wasn't IG in the QT before he died?  I don't understand your argument here.

Jimmmmm could roll for 4 random players.  He is guaranteed, GUARANTEED to have two town in that random roll, as there are only two scum left.  So yes, IT could be four random players.

[Witherweaver]

Jimmm would have decided rewards before starting the game, I'm sure.

[Witherweaver]

Unless you think Jimm is psychic you're being purposefully obtuse.

[ashersky]

And my QT uses the word "other"

Right.  Here's a way to write it in your scum QT:

"The town defeated the monster and has been rewarded with Council.  You must post in this QT (link) tonight.  The others in the QT will be randomly selected from remaining players.  You may create aliases to post, using the names Alice and Bob."

And there is zero reason to think this is true, unless you're trying blindly to push for mislynches.

Just as much reason to think what you are claiming is true.  It's 100000000% unverified that you two are masons.  There is literally nothing to prove it.  It's just the word of two players.

I still have yet to see anyone posit reasoning for how Council was a town reward if all it was was this.

Three players.  We have Hydrad to verify everything we said in Council QT.  Even if you allow some uncertainty, it's got to be 90-95% certain that BA and I didn't plan anything.

Plus the fact that it makes no sense.

I'm not arguing that the QT doesn't exist.  It clearly does.  It's entirely possible and easy to post in two QTs at the same time, formulating plans.  Go read Modern Community and see what Robz did as Mentor, going back and forth between the mafia and mentor QTs.

[ashersky]

Jimmm would have decided rewards before starting the game, I'm sure.

I'm pretty sure he has a pool of rewards to randomly choose from.  Even if he doesn't, if there were more scum than town (the situation where a random role can't return 2 town to join council), scum has already won, dude.

So now who's obtuse?

[liopoil]

Yes, here are my priorities today:

1st choice - Lynch pps
2nd choice - No lynch
3rd choice - lynch somebody else

Why are you resigned to the "if BA/WW are lying, they deserve to win" mentality?

I'm not. I will highly consider lynching them if we mislynch. If one is loved (not too likely, right?) then okay, they win if we mislynch. But really, they just aren't scum because pps is, and ash/arch are scummy. And because of hydrad confirming stuff that happened in the council QT.

[Witherweaver]

Did you read Hydrad's post about how we interacted in the QT?

[ashersky]

The only time a random roll of 4 players isn't guaranteed to return at least two town is when all three scum are alive.  Maybe the size of the Council is determined by size of player pool (50% rounded down, for example).

It's obviously possible he rolled two random townies to be masons then two random players to be neighbors with them.  I'm saying you cannot be sure that happened, but you continue to act like you are.  I am then arguing that since you are making that argument, it's actually because you and BA have been partners the entire time, so you aren't separating yourself like you should have to begin with.

[Witherweaver]

Jimmm would have decided rewards before starting the game, I'm sure.

I'm pretty sure he has a pool of rewards to randomly choose from.  Even if he doesn't, if there were more scum than town (the situation where a random role can't return 2 town to join council), scum has already won, dude.

So now who's obtuse?

If there are three scum alive and he chooses four people randomly then it's possible to not have two town. 

[Witherweaver]

Oh, and it's you, to answer your question.

[ashersky]

Did you read Hydrad's post about how we interacted in the QT?

I did.  I also read how you stated you didn't get to the QT until way after it opened.  If you are scum, you go to the QT website and you absolutely read your scum QT first, to see what BA has said and tells you to say in the Council QT.

[ashersky]

Jimmm would have decided rewards before starting the game, I'm sure.

I'm pretty sure he has a pool of rewards to randomly choose from.  Even if he doesn't, if there were more scum than town (the situation where a random role can't return 2 town to join council), scum has already won, dude.

So now who's obtuse?

If there are three scum alive and he chooses four people randomly then it's possible to not have two town.

I mentioned this in a subsequent post.  But there weren't 3 scum alive, so this is a moot point.

[Witherweaver]

The only time a random roll of 4 players isn't guaranteed to return at least two town is when all three scum are alive.  Maybe the size of the Council is determined by size of player pool (50% rounded down, for example).

It's obviously possible he rolled two random townies to be masons then two random players to be neighbors with them.  I'm saying you cannot be sure that happened, but you continue to act like you are.  I am then arguing that since you are making that argument, it's actually because you and BA have been partners the entire time, so you aren't separating yourself like you should have to begin with.

This is the most likely case, so it's the one I'm taking to be true.  The wording in the QT hints at this.

[Witherweaver]

Did you read Hydrad's post about how we interacted in the QT?

I did.  I also read how you stated you didn't get to the QT until way after it opened.  If you are scum, you go to the QT website and you absolutely read your scum QT first, to see what BA has said and tells you to say in the Council QT.

Yes, BA and I had a masterful plan for him to not understand what a Mason was in the Council QT.

[ashersky]

The only time a random roll of 4 players isn't guaranteed to return at least two town is when all three scum are alive.  Maybe the size of the Council is determined by size of player pool (50% rounded down, for example).

It's obviously possible he rolled two random townies to be masons then two random players to be neighbors with them.  I'm saying you cannot be sure that happened, but you continue to act like you are.  I am then arguing that since you are making that argument, it's actually because you and BA have been partners the entire time, so you aren't separating yourself like you should have to begin with.

This is the most likely case, so it's the one I'm taking to be true.  The wording in the QT hints at this.

Will you concede that it is not guaranteed to be true?  You keep talking like it is, but now you use words ilke "most likely case" and "hints."

IT IS NOT CONFIRMED THAT IT WORKED THIS WAY.  It is also not confirmed that you are masons.  Only way to confirm that is a flip.  Are you convinced your flip will say you are a Mason?

[ashersky]

Did you read Hydrad's post about how we interacted in the QT?

I did.  I also read how you stated you didn't get to the QT until way after it opened.  If you are scum, you go to the QT website and you absolutely read your scum QT first, to see what BA has said and tells you to say in the Council QT.

Yes, BA and I had a masterful plan for him to not understand what a Mason was in the Council QT.

It says masons in your personal QT, right?  I'm to believe he went many many hours without looking it up or asking?  "Newbie ignorance" is a scum tactic.  It's used every single game with newbie scum.

[Witherweaver]

The only time a random roll of 4 players isn't guaranteed to return at least two town is when all three scum are alive.  Maybe the size of the Council is determined by size of player pool (50% rounded down, for example).

It's obviously possible he rolled two random townies to be masons then two random players to be neighbors with them.  I'm saying you cannot be sure that happened, but you continue to act like you are.  I am then arguing that since you are making that argument, it's actually because you and BA have been partners the entire time, so you aren't separating yourself like you should have to begin with.

This is the most likely case, so it's the one I'm taking to be true.  The wording in the QT hints at this.

Will you concede that it is not guaranteed to be true?  You keep talking like it is, but now you use words ilke "most likely case" and "hints."

IT IS NOT CONFIRMED THAT IT WORKED THIS WAY.  It is also not confirmed that you are masons.  Only way to confirm that is a flip.  Are you convinced your flip will say you are a Mason?

Actually I don't know if it will say I'm a Mason.  I'm thinking not, because that's not what my role PM says.  It will say Saboteur.  QT specifically used the word "Mason" though.  It's up to the mod to figure out if role modifications show on flip I guess.

[ashersky]

First message in Council (from Jimmm) said Alice, Bob, Ichimaru and Hydrad were present.  First poster was BA (as Bob). 

When I came in (the QT opened up at night and I didn't see it until the next morning), Bob had posted a few messages from the previous night and Hydrad had checked in.  I decided to post under Alice as well. (BA's third message was to tell me (Alice) he knew my identity and to use pseudonyms until today.)

WW, don't be super-duper specific or you may get modkilled.

It was stated I could paraphrase, so I believe I was within those confines.

I was meaning more with your PM.

Arch, what PM are you referring to here?

[ashersky]

Four players.  I received a in my person QT saying I have been invited to attend the Council, along with my fellow Mason, Beyond Awesome (in green text) and it explicitly said he was town-aligned (again, green text).  It  also said that two Neighbors (bold, not green) have been randomly selected from all other players to join as well.

Then it said that if I want to protect my identity, I can post under the pseudonym Alice.  It informed me that Beyond Awesome could post under the pseudonym Bob.  It then gave me a link to the Council QT.

Here's the original explanation from WW again.  He claims here it says "fellow Mason" in green.

[Archetype]

First message in Council (from Jimmm) said Alice, Bob, Ichimaru and Hydrad were present.  First poster was BA (as Bob). 

When I came in (the QT opened up at night and I didn't see it until the next morning), Bob had posted a few messages from the previous night and Hydrad had checked in.  I decided to post under Alice as well. (BA's third message was to tell me (Alice) he knew my identity and to use pseudonyms until today.)

WW, don't be super-duper specific or you may get modkilled.

It was stated I could paraphrase, so I believe I was within those confines.

I was meaning more with your PM.

Arch, what PM are you referring to here?

When he was told that he and BA were Masons. He was talking about the color of the text and stuff which is pushing it claiming-wise.

[Beyond Awesome]

Four players.  I received a in my person QT saying I have been invited to attend the Council, along with my fellow Mason, Beyond Awesome (in green text) and it explicitly said he was town-aligned (again, green text).  It  also said that two Neighbors (bold, not green) have been randomly selected from all other players to join as well.

Then it said that if I want to protect my identity, I can post under the pseudonym Alice.  It informed me that Beyond Awesome could post under the pseudonym Bob.  It then gave me a link to the Council QT.

Here's the original explanation from WW again.  He claims here it says "fellow Mason" in green.

It does say that and our names also appear in green. Anyway, at first, I just thought WW was a Mason because I thought that was his role name like Arms Inspector was my role name. I did not even know I was a Mason until WW said I was a Mason in the QT because it referred to WW as my fellow mason who was town-aligned. So, when it mentioned town-aligned, I actually assumed Mason was his role title. I actually thought WW fake claimed his Saboteur role or had his role changed to Mason when I got the message. The word Mason appeared in green before his name, so I thought that was his role since when people flip, we get their role title and then their name.

PPE

[Witherweaver]

Did you read Hydrad's post about how we interacted in the QT?

I did.  I also read how you stated you didn't get to the QT until way after it opened.  If you are scum, you go to the QT website and you absolutely read your scum QT first, to see what BA has said and tells you to say in the Council QT.

Yes, BA and I had a masterful plan for him to not understand what a Mason was in the Council QT.

It says masons in your personal QT, right?  I'm to believe he went many many hours without looking it up or asking?  "Newbie ignorance" is a scum tactic.  It's used every single game with newbie scum.

I'm pretty sure he didn't key in on "Mason" being a role, just that my alignment was revealed.  The QT doesn't use the phrase "hi you're Masons".  Or maybe he just thought it was calling me a Mason (it uses the modifier "fellow") and didn't know what it meant.  I don't know.  But Hydrad can verify there was some pretty obvious confusion in the Council QT, and I admitted the town-aligned part right off the bat, no time to create a fake story.

[Witherweaver]

First message in Council (from Jimmm) said Alice, Bob, Ichimaru and Hydrad were present.  First poster was BA (as Bob). 

When I came in (the QT opened up at night and I didn't see it until the next morning), Bob had posted a few messages from the previous night and Hydrad had checked in.  I decided to post under Alice as well. (BA's third message was to tell me (Alice) he knew my identity and to use pseudonyms until today.)

WW, don't be super-duper specific or you may get modkilled.

It was stated I could paraphrase, so I believe I was within those confines.

I was meaning more with your PM.

Arch, what PM are you referring to here?

When he was told that he and BA were Masons. He was talking about the color of the text and stuff which is pushing it claiming-wise.

It was in the person QT not a PM, but in other games it would be a PM thing.

[Beyond Awesome]

For reference, the message says Mason WW who is town-aligned. Except those things were in green. So, Mason appears before his name, so I assumed it was a role like Arms Inspector.

[ashersky]

liopoil, you're asking me to bet the game on PPS being scum, and asking me to bet the game on believing WW/BA.

[Beyond Awesome]

Then, when WW tells me I was a Mason, I got even more confused and thought my role of Arms Inspector went away so I had to ask Jimmmm to make sure this was not the case.

[Beyond Awesome]

To be precise, I actually asked Jimmm if I could still use my Arms Inspector ability. I did not ask if my role of Arms Inspector was changed into Mason.

[Beyond Awesome]

There is even a message in the Council Room QT where I announce that Jimmm got back to me and told me that WW and I can still use our abilities. I think Hydrad brought this up, but he can confirm that if you want him to.

[liopoil]

liopoil, you're asking me to bet the game on PPS being scum, and asking me to bet the game on believing WW/BA.

if pps is scum then ww/BA must be telling the truth anyway, so the second is redundant. But no, it is possible that even if  PPS is somehow town that we could still win this.

[ashersky]

liopoil, you're asking me to bet the game on PPS being scum, and asking me to bet the game on believing WW/BA.

if pps is scum then ww/BA must be telling the truth anyway, so the second is redundant. But no, it is possible that even if  PPS is somehow town that we could still win this.

I suppose it's the other way around then.  You are asking me to bet the game on WW/BA being honest.

[liopoil]

liopoil, you're asking me to bet the game on PPS being scum, and asking me to bet the game on believing WW/BA.

if pps is scum then ww/BA must be telling the truth anyway, so the second is redundant. But no, it is possible that even if  PPS is somehow town that we could still win this.

I suppose it's the other way around then.  You are asking me to bet the game on WW/BA being honest.

Well, no, because even if we mislynch we still have a chance. This isn't mylo. But if it were, we'd have to bet the game on something anyway.

[ashersky]

liopoil, you're asking me to bet the game on PPS being scum, and asking me to bet the game on believing WW/BA.

if pps is scum then ww/BA must be telling the truth anyway, so the second is redundant. But no, it is possible that even if  PPS is somehow town that we could still win this.

I suppose it's the other way around then.  You are asking me to bet the game on WW/BA being honest.

Well, no, because even if we mislynch we still have a chance. This isn't mylo. But if it were, we'd have to bet the game on something anyway.

If scum are loved, it is mylo.

[Witherweaver]

You know that I have both been attacked by dice reduction.  You know this because Faust claimed to steal from me and Faust and I can't both be lying if I'm scum.  I suppose you can't be sure that BA's was legitimate, but he was attacked as well.  You also know that we've both been playing high rolls all game (except when low ones were needed, obviously). 

The likelihood for us having dice to spend on permanent Lovedhood is pretty small.

[Witherweaver]

How much does it cost?  10?

[Hydrad]

liopoil, you're asking me to bet the game on PPS being scum, and asking me to bet the game on believing WW/BA.

if pps is scum then ww/BA must be telling the truth anyway, so the second is redundant. But no, it is possible that even if  PPS is somehow town that we could still win this.

I suppose it's the other way around then.  You are asking me to bet the game on WW/BA being honest.

Well, no, because even if we mislynch we still have a chance. This isn't mylo. But if it were, we'd have to bet the game on something anyway.

If scum are loved, it is mylo.

We still have outs such as getting the GR and using the vig ability to kill a scum. But yes better to not be in that situation where we have to hope

PPE:2

[Hydrad]

How much does it cost?  10?

I think it was mentioned that it was 5 dice to be loved for the rest of the game

[Witherweaver]

You also know YOU received LD last night (ALLEGEDLY), and Ichi received him Night 2, so the ONLY time would be Night 0 or Night 1.

[Witherweaver]

How much does it cost?  10?

I think it was mentioned that it was 5 dice to be loved for the rest of the game

I thought 5 was for one day.

[liopoil]

Only way scum is loved is if they got it N1 or N0, as ww says. Unlikely, I think.

[Hydrad]

How much does it cost?  10?

I think it was mentioned that it was 5 dice to be loved for the rest of the game

I thought 5 was for one day.

I think its 2 for one day?

[Hydrad]

Only way scum is loved is if they got it N1 or N0, as ww says. Unlikely, I think.

unless asher is scum and used 5 instead of 4.

[liopoil]

Only way scum is loved is if they got it N1 or N0, as ww says. Unlikely, I think.

unless asher is scum and used 5 instead of 4.

sure, but we're talking from ash's perspective, i.e., assuming he is town.

[ashersky]

Only way scum is loved is if they got it N1 or N0, as ww says. Unlikely, I think.

Or they get it tonight.

[Witherweaver]

Okay problem.

Say Asher is scum.  But, he didn't get the Love Doctor, his partner did.  So Ashersky claims Lovedoctor in a weird way to take suspicion off of his partner, so even if we do end up lynching Ash, his partner has an advantage at LyLo?

Not sure if it makes much sense.  But if Ashersky were to turn up scum (loved or not), we can't assume the other scum isn't loved. 

[liopoil]

Only way scum is loved is if they got it N1 or N0, as ww says. Unlikely, I think.

Or they get it tonight.

Okay, still probably less than .5 chance that they manage to be loved.

Unrelated, this is the 500th post of this real life day. Insane. Blitz games don't get this active.

PPE: well, 501

[ashersky]

Okay problem.

Say Asher is scum.  But, he didn't get the Love Doctor, his partner did.  So Ashersky claims Lovedoctor in a weird way to take suspicion off of his partner, so even if we do end up lynching Ash, his partner has an advantage at LyLo?

Not sure if it makes much sense.  But if Ashersky were to turn up scum (loved or not), we can't assume the other scum isn't loved.

This applies to everyone, you know.

[Witherweaver]

Okay problem.

Say Asher is scum.  But, he didn't get the Love Doctor, his partner did.  So Ashersky claims Lovedoctor in a weird way to take suspicion off of his partner, so even if we do end up lynching Ash, his partner has an advantage at LyLo?

Not sure if it makes much sense.  But if Ashersky were to turn up scum (loved or not), we can't assume the other scum isn't loved.

This applies to everyone, you know.

Right, but you claimed to have been visited, which might make us think other people weren't.

[ashersky]

Okay problem.

Say Asher is scum.  But, he didn't get the Love Doctor, his partner did.  So Ashersky claims Lovedoctor in a weird way to take suspicion off of his partner, so even if we do end up lynching Ash, his partner has an advantage at LyLo?

Not sure if it makes much sense.  But if Ashersky were to turn up scum (loved or not), we can't assume the other scum isn't loved.

This applies to everyone, you know.

Right, but you claimed to have been visited, which might make us think other people weren't.

Okay.  I just meant everyone should keep in mind that lyching one scum doesn't somehow make the other one "not loved" or anything like that.

[Witherweaver]

Yes, right.

[ashersky]

Okay...seems there are two camps:

We Believe WW/BA Are Honest Camp (WBWAAH Campers - WW, BA, liopoil, Hydrad)
We THINK WW/BA Are Most Definitely Possibly Liars Camp (WTWBAMDPL Campers - Faust, ashersky)

Undeclared: PPS and Arch.

Most easily reduced to the AAHs versus the BAMs.

Currently, it seems there are too many AAHs for the BAMs to lynch WW or BA.  Is that correct?

[ashersky]

So, there seems to be only two subsets of possibilities at this point:

1)  WW/BA are the remaining scum.
2)  Some two of ashersky, archetype, faust, hydrad, liopoil, pps are scum.

Is that correct?

[Witherweaver]

First should be WBWBAH Campers not WBWAAH Campers.

Scumslip.

[Witherweaver]

So, there seems to be only two subsets of possibilities at this point:

1)  WW/BA are the remaining scum.
2)  Some two of ashersky, archetype, faust, hydrad, liopoil, pps are scum.

Is that correct?

Yes, for every A, either A or not A is true.

[ashersky]

Assuming it is, some facts:

1)  Incorrectly lynching from within subset 1 proves someone else is definitely town.
2)  Incorrectly lynching from within subset 2 proves zilch.
3)  Correctly lynching from within subset 1 proves someone else is definitely scum.
4)  Correctly lynching from within subset 2 proves zilch.

From a strictly informational standpoint, lynching from subset 1 is always strictly better.

[ashersky]

First should be WBWBAH Campers not WBWAAH Campers.

Scumslip.

So the BAHs against the BALs.

[Hydrad]

So, there seems to be only two subsets of possibilities at this point:

1)  WW/BA are the remaining scum.
2)  Some two of ashersky, archetype, faust, hydrad, liopoil, pps are scum.

Is that correct?

Yes

[liopoil]

pps is a "BAM".

The answer to both of your "Is that correct?" questions is yes.

Assuming it is, some facts:

1)  Incorrectly lynching from within subset 1 proves someone else is definitely town.
2)  Incorrectly lynching from within subset 2 proves zilch.
3)  Correctly lynching from within subset 1 proves someone else is definitely scum.
4)  Correctly lynching from within subset 2 proves zilch.

From a strictly informational standpoint, lynching from subset 1 is always strictly better.

correctly lynching from subset 2 (#4) confirms both BA and WW as town. Incorrectly lynching from subset 2 (#2) makes it more likely that they are scum.

[Archetype]

I'm in the honest camp.

[Archetype]

pps is a "BAM".

The answer to both of your "Is that correct?" questions is yes.

Assuming it is, some facts:

1)  Incorrectly lynching from within subset 1 proves someone else is definitely town.
2)  Incorrectly lynching from within subset 2 proves zilch.
3)  Correctly lynching from within subset 1 proves someone else is definitely scum.
4)  Correctly lynching from within subset 2 proves zilch.

From a strictly informational standpoint, lynching from subset 1 is always strictly better.

correctly lynching from subset 2 (#4) confirms both BA and WW as town. Incorrectly lynching from subset 2 (#2) makes it more likely that they are scum.

Agree with liopoil here.

[Archetype]

Okay problem.

Say Asher is scum.  But, he didn't get the Love Doctor, his partner did.  So Ashersky claims Lovedoctor in a weird way to take suspicion off of his partner, so even if we do end up lynching Ash, his partner has an advantage at LyLo?

Not sure if it makes much sense.  But if Ashersky were to turn up scum (loved or not), we can't assume the other scum isn't loved.

Good point. But with my dice-stealing theory, I think ashersky indeed did receive the Love Doctor.

[ashersky]

Some facts, with additions:

1)  Incorrectly lynching from within subset 1 proves someone else is definitely town.
2)  Incorrectly lynching from within subset 2 proves zilch, but slightly increases the chance that subset 1 is scum.
3)  Correctly lynching from within subset 1 proves someone else is definitely scum.
4)  Correctly lynching from within subset 2 proves that subset 1 is town.

From a strictly informational standpoint, lynching from subset 1 is always strictly better.

From a strictly informational standpoint, correctly lynching from subset 2 is always strictly better (provides alignment of 2 living players).  Lynching from subset 1, correctly or incorrectly, is the second best (provides alignment of 1 living player).

While correctly lynching from subset 2 is best, lynching from subset 1 allows the greatest margin for error with a positive net result for town.


Now correct?

[ashersky]

Okay...seems there are two camps:

We Believe WW/BA Are Honest Camp (WBWAAH Campers - WW, BA, liopoil, Hydrad)
We THINK WW/BA Are Most Definitely Possibly Liars Camp (WTWBAMDPL Campers - Faust, ashersky)

Undeclared: PPS and Arch.

Most easily reduced to the AAHs versus the BAMs.

Currently, it seems there are too many AAHs for the BAMs to lynch WW or BA.  Is that correct?

Updated:

We Believe WW/BA Are Honest Camp (WBWBAH Campers - WW, BA, liopoil, Hydrad, Archetype)
We THINK WW/BA Are Most Definitely Possibly Liars Camp (WTWBAMDPL Campers - Faust, ashersky, PPS)

BAHs have the majority and can literally lynch whomever they want, regardless of the alignments of faust, ashersky, and PPS.

[ashersky]

Updated:

We Believe WW/BA Are Honest Camp (WBWBAH Campers - WW, BA, liopoil, Hydrad, Archetype)
We THINK WW/BA Are Most Definitely Possibly Liars Camp (WTWBAMDPL Campers - Faust, ashersky, PPS)

BAHs have the majority and can literally lynch whomever they want, regardless of the alignments of faust, ashersky, and PPS.

Based on this, I have to think that we can remove some possible pairings, no?  You've got lio/hydrad/arch on one side and faust/ashersky/PPS on the other.  Could it be safe to assume that scum are sticking together?

That gives us two subsets of there to find two scum in IF WW/BA are telling the truth.

[liopoil]

yeah, so as I was saying, we either lynch pps or no lynch (I don't think an ash or lio or arch or faust or hydrad lynch will go through).

[Witherweaver]

Updated:

We Believe WW/BA Are Honest Camp (WBWBAH Campers - WW, BA, liopoil, Hydrad, Archetype)
We THINK WW/BA Are Most Definitely Possibly Liars Camp (WTWBAMDPL Campers - Faust, ashersky, PPS)

BAHs have the majority and can literally lynch whomever they want, regardless of the alignments of faust, ashersky, and PPS.

Based on this, I have to think that we can remove some possible pairings, no?  You've got lio/hydrad/arch on one side and faust/ashersky/PPS on the other.  Could it be safe to assume that scum are sticking together?

That gives us two subsets of there to find two scum in IF WW/BA are telling the truth.

No, I think it's pretty possible that one scum would side with me and the other against me.

[ashersky]

I don't know.

For me, as it seems apparent we can't get support for WW/BA, I have to decide on PPS, unless liopoil would be interested in a Arch lynch.

Any BAHs up for a liopoil lynch?

[pingpongsam]

If we're going to mislynch I'd rather it be lio than me...

[ashersky]

If we're going to mislynch I'd rather it be lio than me...

From town!PPS's perspective, a lio lynch has a chance of hitting scum, whereas yours doesn't, right?

[Beyond Awesome]

Oh man, so I am still in the middle of my reread, and all of a sudden I realized that the reason why I had been thinking PPS to be town could be the reason he is actually scum.

You see PPS was stolen from D1 and then me D2. This made me relate to PPS and get a townie impression of him. Then, I claim Arms Inspector and PPS uses my claim as an opportunity for him to claim. You see, if PPS were scum, he would know that I was telling the truth. So, at first PPS states he can insert an 8-sided die into someone's supply. Then, he revises it into the wonky explanation he later gives that makes zero sense. He says his role verifies my own role. But, I think he was using my role as an opportunity to come up with a believable fake claim now that I think of it. Also, his role name is Swindler. What does a swindler do? Swindle dice of course!

Vote: PPS

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, based off what PPS says I am so confident he is scum.

D1: Claims he is the Swindler and will not use his power because it is anti-town. He also gets stolen from and makes a lame, lame excuse that he rolled ahead without realizing he was swiped.

D2: I claim my role. PPS knows I am town so uses this as an opportunity to make a believable fake claim. He states he can insert an 8-sided die into someone's supply. e asks him to elaborate so PPS states that he gives a player a 12-sided die, but the next player to receive die will get an 8-sided die instead. Then, he says that players rolls will alternate between 8 and 12 sides. Okay, if a player gets an 8-sided die then only one of those dice should roll up to 8. Where does he get this whole alternating rolling thing going as if that player were permanently. Also, this does not relate to my role. I can verify both Hydrad and WW. I can not see if someone has an 8-sided die in their supply if they also have 12-sided dice.

Then, on D3: Faust gives him 6 dice which is plenty. PPS rolls all of them which makes zero sense. That was totally scummy to do. (Although, Ash supposedly spending 4 dice on the LD is also pretty scummy and up there with what PPS did. I just hope to god Ash is not loved scum)

And, PPS role name is Swindler for crying out loud!!!

Okay, I am ready to lynch PPS.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, PPS has been acting so, so scummy today. It is not even funny. I have no idea why he has been getting away with it.

[Beyond Awesome]

Oh, and lio's ability is very similar to PPS, and I think lio is his partner. In my rereads, those two constantly cast suspicion onto each other as if it is intentional. I am certain PPS took lio's role and used my claim to come up with a role of his own.

I am fairly certain that PPS and Lio are the scum team.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, when PPS claimed, lio had not yet claimed. Lio has been confirmed. PPS has not. This makes it seem more likely that PPS was using his scum partners role to use as a fake claim.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, PPS has done an excellent job at making sure he has no dice this game whether accidentally or not.

[ashersky]

These are all good points on PPS, generally speaking.  And he has been pretty scummy all game.

One issue with some of your arguments though -- and this keeps being brought up (by PPS no less) -- is that role is not related to alignment.

Now, the fact that PPS has quoted that many times could be him overcompensating as scum for having such a scummy sounding role.  I do think "insert a 1d8 into someone's supply randomly" is a pretty crazy claim.  But so is BA's claim.

PPS/Lio and PPS/arch-mi seem like possibilities, I guess, but lio is screaming for PPS's lynch.  Could be an epic bus, I guess.

[Beyond Awesome]

These are all good points on PPS, generally speaking.  And he has been pretty scummy all game.

One issue with some of your arguments though -- and this keeps being brought up (by PPS no less) -- is that role is not related to alignment.

Now, the fact that PPS has quoted that many times could be him overcompensating as scum for having such a scummy sounding role.  I do think "insert a 1d8 into someone's supply randomly" is a pretty crazy claim.  But so is BA's claim.

PPS/Lio and PPS/arch-mi seem like possibilities, I guess, but lio is screaming for PPS's lynch.  Could be an epic bus, I guess.

Oh, and when I have been doing my reread (which I am halfway done  ) Lio also states a lot of times that roles are independent of alignment. Why do you think these two players play that card so often?

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, Ash PPS is not claiming insert a 1d8 into someone's supply. Okay, he said that at first, but then changed what he said.

PPS states he inserts a 1d12 into someone's supply. He then stated that the next player to receive dice (aren't all night actions simultaneous???) gets a 1d8. He then goes a step further and makes his claim sound even more perverted and states that the players rolls will alternate between d8s and d12s. So, if someone got a 1d8, how is that possible?

Also, notice how well his role compliments lios since lio is the dice giver this game.

[Beyond Awesome]

You know, there is also a nice symmetry between lios and PPS roles. One takes away, while the other gives. Kind of funny. It is kind of like the circle of life thing.

[Archetype]

BA makes some great points. Makes me disbelieve PPS's claim more and makes a PPS/liopoil scumteam more likely. Though really, a dice destroyer/liopoil scumteam would be the most interesting setup-wise.

[Archetype]

And it looks like I said exactly the same thing as BA. Hah.

[Archetype]

If we're going to mislynch I'd rather it be lio than me...

From town!PPS's perspective, a lio lynch has a chance of hitting scum, whereas yours doesn't, right?

Liopoil gives out a lot of dice while you only give out one. Why would lio be a better mislynch than yourself?

[Beyond Awesome]

Honestly, we can lynch either one since I am fairly certain they are both scum. However, I do think lynching the dice destroyer is the better choice of the two.

[ashersky]

If we're going to mislynch I'd rather it be lio than me...

From town!PPS's perspective, a lio lynch has a chance of hitting scum, whereas yours doesn't, right?

Liopoil gives out a lot of dice while you only give out one. Why would lio be a better mislynch than yourself?

Are you asking PPS?

[Archetype]

If we're going to mislynch I'd rather it be lio than me...

From town!PPS's perspective, a lio lynch has a chance of hitting scum, whereas yours doesn't, right?

Liopoil gives out a lot of dice while you only give out one. Why would lio be a better mislynch than yourself?

Are you asking PPS?

Yes. My bad - I should have specified.

[Archetype]

Honestly, we can lynch either one since I am fairly certain they are both scum. However, I do think lynching the dice destroyer is the better choice of the two.

I'm not 100% sure that liopoil is scum, but if PPS does flip scum (which I'm pretty sure he will), he'll be my #1 suspect.

[pingpongsam]

Also, PPS has done an excellent job at making sure he has no dice this game whether accidentally or not.

Yet, where is the scummy roll?

You do realize we are casually discussing which mislynch to take? Why is no lynch not an option?

[faust]

I don't think PPS actions D1 ake any sense as scum. Can someone present a coherent case on PPS instead of just saying "well, he's scummy"? Because I don't see the scumminess.

[faust]

Actually, I could just resign right now. This game is lost because lio/Arch are too narrow-minded to see what's actually happening.

[pingpongsam]

If we're going to mislynch I'd rather it be lio than me...

From town!PPS's perspective, a lio lynch has a chance of hitting scum, whereas yours doesn't, right?

Liopoil gives out a lot of dice while you only give out one. Why would lio be a better mislynch than yourself?

Because at this point it isn't about needing dice to insure a win. Lio's role is confirmed and mine is not. Everyone is placing so much emphasis on finding lying scum by confirming roles. Let me confirm my role tonight.

[liopoil]

These are all good points on PPS, generally speaking.  And he has been pretty scummy all game.

One issue with some of your arguments though -- and this keeps being brought up (by PPS no less) -- is that role is not related to alignment.

Now, the fact that PPS has quoted that many times could be him overcompensating as scum for having such a scummy sounding role.  I do think "insert a 1d8 into someone's supply randomly" is a pretty crazy claim.  But so is BA's claim.

PPS/Lio and PPS/arch-mi seem like possibilities, I guess, but lio is screaming for PPS's lynch.  Could be an epic bus, I guess.

Oh, and when I have been doing my reread (which I am halfway done  ) Lio also states a lot of times that roles are independent of alignment. Why do you think these two players play that card so often?

I say it because people seem to forget it over and over again. Since I'm town, I don't want town forgetting stuff. If I were scum, well I was either pretending to be town or had some other motive. Not sure what that other motive would be, but it doesn't matter.

faust, pps' D1 actions got him towncred. pps does crazy stuff.

You are looking quite narrow-minded yourself.

[faust]

You are looking quite narrow-minded yourself.

Maybe. At most one of us is right, we'll see which one. It just goes completely against my gut to assume PPS or ashersky as scum. And in past games, relying on my gut worked quite well.

[liopoil]

We're on Day 4, everyone has massclaimed and done lots of other analyzable things, and you're relying on gut?

[pingpongsam]

I do hope lio learns from this and becomes a better player as a result.

[faust]

We're on Day 4, everyone has massclaimed and done lots of other analyzable things, and you're relying on gut?

What are you relying on?

[pingpongsam]

I do hope lio learns from this and becomes a better player as a result.

In the context that the only way mislynching me is a good play is if he intends to die tomorrow and his partner is basically lynch proof and can win from that point on.

[faust]

faust, pps' D1 actions got him towncred. pps does crazy stuff.

This is not a carte blanche to view anything PPS does as scummy.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, we need to get this game back on track.  I understand that if two players come out and say they're Masons, you have to consider the case that they're a scum team.  I didn't consider this much of a problem, because I thought it would be pretty clear after a bit of evaluation that BA and I weren't scum.  My biggest worry about the council thing was that Ichi and/or Hydrad were scum and could somehow manipulate the situation. (I don't have a specific idea as to how, just general paranoia.) 

Why you should believe we're telling the truth:

(1) Masons were a reward from killing the Witch.  The reward was Council.  This is a town reward, it has to benefit town in some way that doesn't just break the game.  The award is to select two town members to be Masons and put them in a Neighborhood with two other players.  Our rewards before this point were:

(i) A chance to protect against a night kill.
(ii) A supply of dice to hand out.

Each reward involved the entire set of living players, scum and town.  In both cases, scum was involved in the selection process.  In the second one, they could vote for themselves for the person to hand out dice.  However, not a very exploitable situation, as they still have to hand out dice somewhere and if a scum did get selected and gave all the dice to his team, it would probably be trackable.  And regardless, our entire die hoard goes up, which is generally good.

The next reward is for killing another monster, so it should be a Town benefit, but not overpowered.  So, here are two scenarios for our next reward:

(iiia) [The truth, with some stipulation of details on my part] Two Town players are selected to be Masons and join a neighborhood with two other Neighbors (selected randomly from all other live players).  They get a QT that night which will be open on the remaining nights.  The Masons are given pseudonyms by the mod that they may use (but don't have to).  Being explicitly told that the other Neighbors were selected from all other remaining players meant they could be scum, so pseudonyms would protect us from being targeted that night.

(iiib) [The ''conspiracy theory''] The scum team is forced into a QT.  (Would this be different if three scum or one scum were left alive?  How would this work at a general prize?  No clue.) The scum team has to post in the QT and is given a pseudonyms that they can use.  The scum team then decides to capitalize and claim they were made Masons.

(iiib') [A different version] Four players are selected at random, and two at random to get to use pseudonyms, or something like that.

It should be obvious that (iiib) and (iiib'), or the other incarnations of these, are silly.  If I'm scum, I'm told I have to post in the QT, I just post "." and never go back again.  Okay this might be a little dangerous because then the two Neighbors can figure out they should be town since the others aren't posting.  I can then, of course, just kill one of them.  Then there's only one person saying what went on in the QT, and it's completely useless.  Or I use the opportunity to spread misinformation.  Or I simply post in there as I normally would, and use the opportunity to get more insight on what town members are thinking. 

In what way does this possibly benefit the town?  How is this a prize?

The scenario (iiib') makes even less sense, because it has nothing to do with alignment.

Lastly, why would we be given pseudonyms at all?  What's your motivation as mod!Jimmmmm to come up with that?

(2) BA and myself did not have the opportunity to come up with this ''plot''.  Even if, somehow, you can possibly believe that two scum players would be given pseudonyms to join in a Neighborhood as a town prize, it does not make sense with the way things went down here.

If I had seen this as an opportunity to come up with a clever ploy, we would have had to talk about this in scum QT.  The Council QT opens up at 2:30 AM.  BA starts posting on his own at 3:30 AM.  I have a 9-5 job; I'm asleep during this time.  Why would scum!BA start posting, unprompted, on his own, in a QT that he shares with town, that he knows was awarded to Town as a Town prize, right off the bat with no plan or consideration on what it means for us and what's going on?  Any scum player would wait and think things through and figure everything out---certainly stop to think and discuss with his partner about the pseudonym situation---not just start posting.  Scum has to be careful and think things through, not just act and post randomly.

Give me a possible reasonable explanation for scum!BA behaving like this.

Moreover, I posted as soon as I could as well, which was the next morning while I was at work. My first post was a bit before 10 AM.  My very first post was to admit that BA and I (under pseudonyms) were confirmed town to each other.  Hydrad and I have back-and-forths for a bit, and BA is gone throughout all of this, until the afternoon. I'm gone while BA is posting and BA is gone while I'm posting. 

I'm certainly not going to jump in the Council QT and propose that my scum partner and I were confirmed town to each other without first discussing it with him.  Certainly Faust and Ash should realize this.  I talk through all kinds of possible scenarios, even ones that don't really matter or are very unlikely, in the scum QT.  Even the one case where I "threw an audible" in Innovation as Mafia, I had talked about the possibility with Faust on the previous night, and in that situation I felt I was cornered and I had to.  It's completely absurd that I'm going to throw a wild curveball and just "hope" BA (who would be first-time scum in this scenario) would just pick up and play along correctly.

The other case, where BA came up with this himself, is not even in the same plane of existence as something possible.  The confusion over the Mason role and what he was told by Jimmm is just too hard to fake.  He even asked questions to and got confirmation from Jimmmm.

(3) This entire thing would be completely unnecessary as scum.   We could have just not claimed anything and not drawn attention to ourselves.  The QT could be completely ignored (our identities not having been revealed) or we could post there inconspicuously.  There's no scenario here where we had to take this gambit. 

We should be treating BA and myself as confirmed town players, because that's the scenario that makes sense.  I'm pretty shocked that anyone would be so adamant against believing it (after some initial understandable skepticism), but Hydrad verifying everything BA and myself say and said should be enough to convince doubters.  The fact that there are three players arguing to lynch me and BA and only two scum left is just baffling to me.  Okay this was probably my fault, and me coming out and saying "I'm town start believing me" wasn't the most convincing thing, so I'm sorry.  Though I kind of expected people (that had played with me before) to see my unwillingness to consider a scenario where people would think I'm not town as much more likely to come from town!me than scum!me.

The bottom line is, BA and I were unable to orchestrate such a plot, and us being given the opportunity to orchestrate such a plot is not in line with the facts of the game.

Also, especially to Faust who was so adamant about lynching the low rollers (remember Ichi?), BA and myself have played three 12's between us so far.  At some point you'd think we'd store some of those and use them for scum purposes instead of town.  Maybe one scum playing high rolls for town points makes sense, but both of them?

So let me ask this.  Hypothetically, if BA and myself are IC's, is no lynch still the right scenario?  (This isn't an argument, it's a real question.  I mean, would you be coming to the same conclusion on strategy if you 100% believed me and BA right off the bat.)

[Witherweaver]

Faust, I'm also concerned about power 4 of the Grim Reaper in scum hands.  I don't think it's possible for someone to have gotten it yet.  Though if they do get to control where it goes, then tonight could be dangerous.

[Hydrad]

A crazy theory but what if the GR is controlled by someone who has died this game?

[Witherweaver]

A crazy theory but what if the GR is controlled by someone who has died this game?

Then it's random?  It didn't say anything about me being able to choose who I send it to.

[pingpongsam]

A few thoughts:

I gave hydrad a town pass for his involvement in the council room. Assuming WW/BA are the town masons and that it is possible the other named members in the councilr oom could have been scum (we know Ichi wasn't) then is there some toher overarching reason I should continue giving hydrad a town pass. I don't want to hear, "well, his role is confirmed".

The coordinated and adamant refusal to no lynch and to press what I know to be a mislynch stands testament to me that any possibility is plausible no matter how hard one of our "masons" tries to discredit those scenarios.

The gambit to own being masons if you are scum is a real all or nothing deal. My initial resistance to the idea that WW/BA were not the masons they calimed to be was strictly based on the very notion that it would have been far simpler to just remain quiet. Let us not forget that I was initially buying the claim, that it was their undeniably scummy (from my vantage point) behavior that convinced me that it may not be so. That said, I am prone to go for broke and get the glory than to play it safe just to get the win. It's much harder to get 2 guys to go with the no guts no glory plan, though.

Finally, yes, I do think no lynchis preferable to a summary mislynch and I don't see any convincing argument otherwise. My role can be confirmed and everyone wants to find this dice destroyer so if the mislynch has to happen at least mislynch the guy we already have confirmed instead of the unconfirmed one. Besides, it is possible for lio to fliip scum while I know I will flip town.

[Witherweaver]

Speaking of stuff dying, interesting thing to note:

Xerxes died the night that the Mentalist was with Ash.  I believe that everyone who had received the Mentalist had understood that Xerxes was controlling it by this time.  (I could be wrong here.).  I also believe that the Mentalist QT message makes it clear that you can cop a player that the Mentalist had visited.

Scum!Ash motivation to kill Xerxes is that he may have thought that killing Xerxes would get rid of the Mentalist and didn't know he'd have to choose where to send it.  Certainly, the longer it's around with a scum on its path, the more dangerous it is.

[Witherweaver]

Faust, you really don't think PPS sounds scummy? 

[Beyond Awesome]

Speaking of stuff dying, interesting thing to note:

Xerxes died the night that the Mentalist was with Ash.  I believe that everyone who had received the Mentalist had understood that Xerxes was controlling it by this time.  (I could be wrong here.).  I also believe that the Mentalist QT message makes it clear that you can cop a player that the Mentalist had visited.

Scum!Ash motivation to kill Xerxes is that he may have thought that killing Xerxes would get rid of the Mentalist and didn't know he'd have to choose where to send it.  Certainly, the longer it's around with a scum on its path, the more dangerous it is.

Interesting theory. And, to think I was starting to see Ash in a townie fashion. Well, between Ash and PPS we at least a 50% chance of hitting scum. Those are good odds to me. Honestly, I am finding PPS the scummier of the two. Ash's actions earlier with the LD are just too baffling. Then, again, Ash is supposed to be known for his brilliant and crazy plans.

[pingpongsam]

between Ash and PPS we at least a 50% chance of hitting scum

Where did you obtain such certainty?

[Beyond Awesome]

between Ash and PPS we at least a 50% chance of hitting scum

Where did you obtain such certainty?

Because you are the only two players that can be the dice destroyer. I am certain Hydrad isn't. And, he has sort of been confirmed now. Faust. No. He is a thief, but he took over for e there. lio, he's a dice giver. I know WW is town. So, that leaves just you and Ash. For all I know, you two are a scum team which means my odds of hitting scum between the two of you is more than 50/50.

[Witherweaver]

Keep in mind Faust's thief ability is not confirmed.  The first day he got it, I was the only one that lost dice.  He claimed to steal from me and he claimed to give you more dice than you received, so that the dice destroyer must have targeted you.  The second day he claimed to steal from PPS, who had zero dice anyway. 

[Beyond Awesome]

Keep in mind Faust's thief ability is not confirmed.  The first day he got it, I was the only one that lost dice.  He claimed to steal from me and he claimed to give you more dice than you received, so that the dice destroyer must have targeted you.  The second day he claimed to steal from PPS, who had zero dice anyway.

WW, Hydrad was stolen from yesterday and again today. Oh wait, we don't know if Hydrad was stolen from yesterday because Hydrad had 7 dice, but Faust claimed to have given him 5. You are correct, Faust is not confirmed.

[Beyond Awesome]

Oh man, I was under the assumption it was proven that Hydrad was stolen from yesterday. I forgot about all of that. Still, it is likely we should know if Faust is scum or not tomorrow, especially if he claims to have stolen from someone who died. Or, maybe he will just claim to not his use his power at all. That is if he is the dice destroyer.

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, if Faust is the dice destroyer (which I am not finding plausible) that would mean that PPS is most likely his partner, so lynching PPS is still the correct call.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, Faust being scum would explain why did not find PPS using all of his dice yesterday to be scummy. I mean, seriously, what is not scummy about rolling six dice in one day which is your entire supply just after someone gave you all those dice?

[Witherweaver]

Also, Faust being scum would explain why did not find PPS using all of his dice yesterday to be scummy. I mean, seriously, what is not scummy about rolling six dice in one day which is your entire supply just after someone gave you all those dice?

We talked about this.  Rolling 6 is probably better than rolling none.  Recall it costs dice to store a die, and to play a stored die, but he can still do this with no dice.  So rolling 4 and storing and playing one tomorrow is the same as rolling 6.

[Witherweaver]

Keep in mind Faust's thief ability is not confirmed.  The first day he got it, I was the only one that lost dice.  He claimed to steal from me and he claimed to give you more dice than you received, so that the dice destroyer must have targeted you.  The second day he claimed to steal from PPS, who had zero dice anyway.

WW, Hydrad was stolen from yesterday and again today. Oh wait, we don't know if Hydrad was stolen from yesterday because Hydrad had 7 dice, but Faust claimed to have given him 5. You are correct, Faust is not confirmed.

Sorry, it was Hydrad, not you.

[Beyond Awesome]

Keep in mind Faust's thief ability is not confirmed.  The first day he got it, I was the only one that lost dice.  He claimed to steal from me and he claimed to give you more dice than you received, so that the dice destroyer must have targeted you.  The second day he claimed to steal from PPS, who had zero dice anyway.

WW, Hydrad was stolen from yesterday and again today. Oh wait, we don't know if Hydrad was stolen from yesterday because Hydrad had 7 dice, but Faust claimed to have given him 5. You are correct, Faust is not confirmed.

Sorry I meant to say Hydrad got 5 dice yesterday, but Faust claimed to have given him 7.

[Beyond Awesome]

You know at this time, I think everyone should claim how many dice they got from Faust yesterday.

I got 5

Hydrad got (7)5

PPS 6

[liopoil]

I got 6

[Archetype]

I got 5

[Witherweaver]

I got none

[faust]

Faust, you really don't think PPS sounds scummy?

Yes.

[faust]

Oh man, I was under the assumption it was proven that Hydrad was stolen from yesterday. I forgot about all of that. Still, it is likely we should know if Faust is scum or not tomorrow, especially if he claims to have stolen from someone who died. Or, maybe he will just claim to not his use his power at all. That is if he is the dice destroyer.

How is that argument fine when appield to me, but not when applied to PPS?

[faust]

There were 42 dice in total. I kept three. If anyone is interested, I will post the dice distribution here.

[Witherweaver]

Oh man, I was under the assumption it was proven that Hydrad was stolen from yesterday. I forgot about all of that. Still, it is likely we should know if Faust is scum or not tomorrow, especially if he claims to have stolen from someone who died. Or, maybe he will just claim to not his use his power at all. That is if he is the dice destroyer.

How is that argument fine when appield to me, but not when applied to PPS?

When was it not fine when applied to PPS?  It's more or less what I've been saying.  Well, except the conclusion isn't that said person is scum, but rather that we don't have any more information towards verifying claim and not any closer to knowing whether said person is scum or not.

[faust]

So let me ask this.  Hypothetically, if BA and myself are IC's, is no lynch still the right scenario?  (This isn't an argument, it's a real question.  I mean, would you be coming to the same conclusion on strategy if you 100% believed me and BA right off the bat.)

I'm too tired of all this to respond in detail to your niche little defense (you haven't convinced me, surprise). This is a question I can answer though. Yes, I think no lynch would be even better then. Either we can confirm PPS' and my role, and scum kills one of you, or we can't, and scum kills one of our suspects. Win-win. Once PPS and I are confirmed, ash is the obvious lynch, and we don't run into any danger surrounding lovedness and other lynchproofness.

[Witherweaver]

So let me ask this.  Hypothetically, if BA and myself are IC's, is no lynch still the right scenario?  (This isn't an argument, it's a real question.  I mean, would you be coming to the same conclusion on strategy if you 100% believed me and BA right off the bat.)

I'm too tired of all this to respond in detail to your niche little defense (you haven't convinced me, surprise). This is a question I can answer though. Yes, I think no lynch would be even better then. Either we can confirm PPS' and my role, and scum kills one of you, or we can't, and scum kills one of our suspects. Win-win. Once PPS and I are confirmed, ash is the obvious lynch, and we don't run into any danger surrounding lovedness and other lynchproofness.

I don't follow this.

[Witherweaver]

Oh yeah, also increasingly worrisome for me is that the three logical lynch candidates for today (Faust, Ash, PPS) are the only ones arguing the absurd case that BA and I are scum, and two of those are the big no-lynch proponents. 

[faust]

So let me ask this.  Hypothetically, if BA and myself are IC's, is no lynch still the right scenario?  (This isn't an argument, it's a real question.  I mean, would you be coming to the same conclusion on strategy if you 100% believed me and BA right off the bat.)

I'm too tired of all this to respond in detail to your niche little defense (you haven't convinced me, surprise). This is a question I can answer though. Yes, I think no lynch would be even better then. Either we can confirm PPS' and my role, and scum kills one of you, or we can't, and scum kills one of our suspects. Win-win. Once PPS and I are confirmed, ash is the obvious lynch, and we don't run into any danger surrounding lovedness and other lynchproofness.

I don't follow this.

Say PPS targets ash, lio targets PPS (if PPS is telling the truth, PPS now has only d8's), BA checks PPS. PPS confirmed (by ash and BA). I check ash with the Mentalist, and I target someone.

I see that my confirmation get more problematic as scum could just choose not to destroy dice, hm. I guess you have to believe me. But if things go well, scum has to kill me anyway, because otherwise I produce another IC.

[faust]

Oh yeah, also increasingly worrisome for me is that the three logical lynch candidates for today (Faust, Ash, PPS) are the only ones arguing the absurd case that BA and I are scum, and two of those are the big no-lynch proponents.

So what, we're all three scum?

[faust]

Oh yeah, also increasingly worrisome for me is that the three logical lynch candidates for today (Faust, Ash, PPS) are the only ones arguing the absurd case that BA and I are scum, and two of those are the big no-lynch proponents.

So what, we're all three scum?

All this proves is that it's possible for town to think you're scum.

[Witherweaver]

So let me ask this.  Hypothetically, if BA and myself are IC's, is no lynch still the right scenario?  (This isn't an argument, it's a real question.  I mean, would you be coming to the same conclusion on strategy if you 100% believed me and BA right off the bat.)

I'm too tired of all this to respond in detail to your niche little defense (you haven't convinced me, surprise). This is a question I can answer though. Yes, I think no lynch would be even better then. Either we can confirm PPS' and my role, and scum kills one of you, or we can't, and scum kills one of our suspects. Win-win. Once PPS and I are confirmed, ash is the obvious lynch, and we don't run into any danger surrounding lovedness and other lynchproofness.

I don't follow this.

Say PPS targets ash, lio targets PPS (if PPS is telling the truth, PPS now has only d8's), BA checks PPS. PPS confirmed (by ash and BA). I check ash with the Mentalist, and I target someone.

I see that my confirmation get more problematic as scum could just choose not to destroy dice, hm. I guess you have to believe me. But if things go well, scum has to kill me anyway, because otherwise I produce another IC.

How many dice does Lio's ability give?

[Witherweaver]

Oh yeah, also increasingly worrisome for me is that the three logical lynch candidates for today (Faust, Ash, PPS) are the only ones arguing the absurd case that BA and I are scum, and two of those are the big no-lynch proponents.

So what, we're all three scum?

All this proves is that it's possible for town to think you're scum.

So I have real problems trusting things that people say form that group.

[Witherweaver]

Oh yeah, also increasingly worrisome for me is that the three logical lynch candidates for today (Faust, Ash, PPS) are the only ones arguing the absurd case that BA and I are scum, and two of those are the big no-lynch proponents.

So what, we're all three scum?

All this proves is that it's possible for town to think you're scum.

Which is why I went through the effort to type out an explanation how that is not a reasonable scenario.

[faust]

So let me ask this.  Hypothetically, if BA and myself are IC's, is no lynch still the right scenario?  (This isn't an argument, it's a real question.  I mean, would you be coming to the same conclusion on strategy if you 100% believed me and BA right off the bat.)

I'm too tired of all this to respond in detail to your niche little defense (you haven't convinced me, surprise). This is a question I can answer though. Yes, I think no lynch would be even better then. Either we can confirm PPS' and my role, and scum kills one of you, or we can't, and scum kills one of our suspects. Win-win. Once PPS and I are confirmed, ash is the obvious lynch, and we don't run into any danger surrounding lovedness and other lynchproofness.

I don't follow this.

Say PPS targets ash, lio targets PPS (if PPS is telling the truth, PPS now has only d8's), BA checks PPS. PPS confirmed (by ash and BA). I check ash with the Mentalist, and I target someone.

I see that my confirmation get more problematic as scum could just choose not to destroy dice, hm. I guess you have to believe me. But if things go well, scum has to kill me anyway, because otherwise I produce another IC.

How many dice does Lio's ability give?

1d12 I think.

[Witherweaver]

So let me ask this.  Hypothetically, if BA and myself are IC's, is no lynch still the right scenario?  (This isn't an argument, it's a real question.  I mean, would you be coming to the same conclusion on strategy if you 100% believed me and BA right off the bat.)

I'm too tired of all this to respond in detail to your niche little defense (you haven't convinced me, surprise). This is a question I can answer though. Yes, I think no lynch would be even better then. Either we can confirm PPS' and my role, and scum kills one of you, or we can't, and scum kills one of our suspects. Win-win. Once PPS and I are confirmed, ash is the obvious lynch, and we don't run into any danger surrounding lovedness and other lynchproofness.

I don't follow this.

Say PPS targets ash, lio targets PPS (if PPS is telling the truth, PPS now has only d8's), BA checks PPS. PPS confirmed (by ash and BA). I check ash with the Mentalist, and I target someone.

I see that my confirmation get more problematic as scum could just choose not to destroy dice, hm. I guess you have to believe me. But if things go well, scum has to kill me anyway, because otherwise I produce another IC.

How many dice does Lio's ability give?

1d12 I think.

So 11/12 BA targets PPS and gets 1,2, ..., 12.  1/12 he gets 1, 2, ..., 8.

[Witherweaver]

PPS said the next die anyone receives right?

[faust]

PPS said the next die anyone receives right?

As I understood, he said all dice given out from there on. Otherwise his role would do nothing, really.

[Witherweaver]

And what about order?  If you steal from someone, you receive dice right?  How do we know the die you get isn't the d8.  What if someone uses Love Doctor to receive dice with Hated?  What if part of the prize tonight is to receive dice?  How do we know how "next" resolves?

[faust]

WW, you never bothered to respond to my case on you, so I'm not really motivated to respond to your case why you're town.

[Witherweaver]

Checking.

What case on me?

[faust]

And what about order?  If you steal from someone, you receive dice right?  How do we know the die you get isn't the d8.  What if someone uses Love Doctor to receive dice with Hated?  What if part of the prize tonight is to receive dice?  How do we know how "next" resolves?

PPE is a thing.

[Witherweaver]

From before:

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

Wait, what? can you expand on that bit about your role?

It's fairly complicated and totally swingy. When I target a player they receive a 12 sided die. However, when any other player ( I assume the next one but no further after?) gains a die through any method it will be an 8 sided die without their knowledge. Their rolls will alternate between the 8 sided die and the 12 sided dies in their supply. Thus, having a role that detects how many sides are on dice directly relates to what my role does.

[faust]

Faustus Aurelius Productions proudly presents:

Beyond Awesome and Witherweaver: A scum narrative

N0

Scum meets. WW has a dice destroying power and uses it on PPS, because hey, why not? BA might actually have a power similar to the one he claimed.

D1

BA and WW start the game with a nice little ping-ponging with WW asking questions and BA answering them. Then there's the rerolling, where the highest dice roll (from BA) doesn't get rerolled. Still mildly suspicious. #178 features WW fishing for Xerxes' role. #183, BA jumps a wagon on Ichi because he's "quiet" and rolled low. WW also hedging on Ichi. #223, WW uses the classical logical fallacy "I can't always be scum" to defend himself. BA posts his reads in #250: scum read on Voltaire for low roll, town read on WW for flavor reasons when it has been explicitly stated that flavor has no meaning for the game. That's the classical distribution for reads on scum partners: one scummy, one towny.

A long time not much notable. WW votes BA at some point, but doesn't really push this lynch. Then, in post #417, BA defends WW against my accusations. Then, #580 is another interesting reads post from BA. He calls Voltaire "a bit suspicious" and votes for him. He forgets to list WW. Overall, the most scummy Voltaire vote of the day.

In #609, WW states reads, says he finds BA the most scummy, and "doesn't see how this isn't town Volt". That's an especially strong read to have when Volt has done nothing that stands out. Casting suspicion on BA on the other hand is safe, noone else is really suspecting him.

N1

Not much to learn here. Box was a good taget: He claimed lots of dice, seemed townie, yet not enough for people to protect him. WW plans something to make BA look more townie and attacks him (or doesn't, and they just agree to tell this story).

D2

BA opens with a very fake-seeming post. WW states "my reads suck" immediately afterwards, trying to prevent suspicion because of his read on Voltaire and to protect BA. #704 is the classic "I understand why you are voting for me" scumtell. There's also the thing where BA knows that mail-mi was attacked, which I overlooked. WW was very reluctant to answer whether or not he targeted me N1, as is BA. Are they afraid I might find something out?

Throughout the day, BA continues to have an inexplicable town read on WW. In #1001, WW joins the e wagon pretty much without reasoning and giving up his strong scum read on BA rather easily. Post #1082 is BA again defending WW, continuing in a very fishy defense in #1086. When I call WW out for not being on the VOltaire wagon, he cites his scum meta to show that he's usually bussing, which is a bad defense also. Post #1172 is also very telling, hey, I'll even link it.

In #1384, WW says he gets a "huge scumread" on BA, but leaves his vote on PPS. Then, BA is afraid of a mislynch and claims his weird role. #1419 scummy again, with BA saying "I am not trying to get out of being lynched". Really? #1564, BA goes after the easy mislynch chairs, without much of a case at all. Post #1603, #1604 are again interesting BA - WW interaction. In #1610, WW is suddenly okay with lyching e. Why? BA hammers shortly thereafter. (Doesn't really... but they think he does) Supremely scummy.

N2

This is probably where WW makes up his fakeclaim. The Xerxes NK is obvious.

D3

WW's claim:

Okay, looks like there are no dissenters to mass claiming.  I'll go ahead and start

I am a Town X-Shot Saboteur.  I can reveal what X is, but not sure if I should.  I have not used any shots.  This is what my power does:

During the night, I may name a single player, and that player is unable to roll any of the three highest-scoring values.  I can only name one player per night (i.e., I can only use one shot a night). 

Moreover, if I die, then for each shot I have remaining, a random player will be Sabotaged (effect above) on each of the following two days. 

I read this as, if I have X shots left and die tonight, then tomorrow X random players get Sabotaged, and the next day X random players get Sabotaged again.

This is why I didn't want to claim my roll before.. I saw this as largely anti-town, because in most cases we want high rolls.  If I'm night killed, then the effect seems pretty bad for us.  I did not use any shots because there was no reason to believe we wouldn't want high rolls, and even if I had a strong scum read on someone, we still want them to play high.

However, this effect is a boon for these monsters:

OGRE - Only 1s and 2s count.

GOBLIN - Even numbers count as negative.

For those of us that can roll up to 12, my effect takes away 10,11, and 12 as possibilities, so two evens and one odd. (In fact, probably true for anyone, because the highest value is probably even.)  For Ogres, the chance to get 1 or 2 is reduced from 2/12 to 2/9.  So at this point it could help.  This is also why I asked yesterday if anyone had the ability to see what monsters are coming up, so I'd know if I should use my power or not.

The only night actions I've taken were to target Faust with the medical thing on Night 1 and Faust again with the treasure thing on Night 2.

I don't know if we're doing full die claiming, so I won't do that, but as I said before, I lost four dice from my Supply last night.  Nothing happened to me on the previous nights.

I already mentioned how this is a scummy claim: No confirmable actions yet, potentially helpful later, penalty for getting lynched. What add to this is that the role is very similar to chairs' role, but strictly worse for town. I don't think Jimmmmm would include two roles of this kind. Post #1975 reads like: "I made up such an awesome role, why don't you believe me?"

It's also very very much notable how WW screamed "lynch BA next!!!" on D2 and apparently completely forgot about his intentions on D3. How does that happen? In #2131, BA puts chairs at L-1 (wasn't actually, but he thought it was) after he stated he was going to self-hammer. Also very scummy.

N3

Now things get really juicy. WW and BA are being pulled into the Council, under fake names. They decide to use that as an advantage and claim Masons. I will say here that this makes no sense. If the reward was to give us Masons, what was the rest of the Council all about? I don't think Jimmmmm would just add such an unneccessary thing to a reward that is otherwise pretty straightforward. Two, why wouldn't they claim their names? Doing so would maybe kill one of them, but then they know there's scum among Hydrad/Ichi, which seems a good bargain. Three, WW and BA, really? What are the odds for two players that are so scummy to be chosen as Masons?

WW then claims to target BA, which is good because it takes him one day further without having to be confirmed, and the next day is already MyLo. Him targeting BA is town doesn't make sense. BA is confirmed town, shouldn't he be targeting the player who are scum to make it more likely that they have to contribute? Also, it was clear that BA was low on dice. No, that night action doesn't make any sense.

That's pretty much it. The scumminess of the two becomes ever more apparent going on.

[faust]

Not even including today, with would also fill a couple of pages.

[faust]

From before:

Yeah I am still down for Vote: yuma

His claim smacked of a lie off the bat. My role directly inserts an 8 sided die into a players supply and thus corresponds with BA's claim.

Wait, what? can you expand on that bit about your role?

It's fairly complicated and totally swingy. When I target a player they receive a 12 sided die. However, when any other player ( I assume the next one but no further after?) gains a die through any method it will be an 8 sided die without their knowledge. Their rolls will alternate between the 8 sided die and the 12 sided dies in their supply. Thus, having a role that detects how many sides are on dice directly relates to what my role does.

Hmm. PPS, please clarify.

[Witherweaver]

Faustus Aurelius Productions proudly presents:

Beyond Awesome and Witherweaver: A scum narrative
...

So Day 1 I didn't see a reason to think Voltaire was scummy.  I still don't; I don't know how everyone picked him out.  I found BA to be behaving the scummiest throughout most of everything.  I recall stating this a bit later once I realized that I was confusing players.

When I stated "my reads suck" I was confusing BA and Box. So my reads sucking was referring to Volt ending up scum and my scum read ending up town.

I was never reluctant to answer anything about targeting you.  I never made any logical fallacy in defending myself, also.  BA did, and I called him out on it.  "I can't always be scum" is obviously not a real defense.

I agree that BA's townread on me was inexplicable, and questionable.  It's why I considered him to be so scummy.  Reminded me a TON of how DD behaved in Monster's U.  What I said about Voltaire is just true.

I tried to push BA lynches multiple times, and no one jumped on.  I began to suspect PPS because I was coming up with an idea that he faked the whole dice thing on Day 1 to play the victim, with knowledge about scum's roles.  The big thing that was weird to me was how he kept talking about having his dice stolen, and then later on a thief comes and claims.  So I think I was back and forth between PPS and e because of that dichotomy. 

I'm not sure what you mean by the Xerxes kill being obvious.  I didn't know he was town at all, and I believe at this point I had no idea what was going on with everyone that was "in" on the thing.

There is nothing scummy about my claim at all.  I did things in the past that make sense given my claim (resist early claim, try to figure out if we could plan for what monsters were coming up).

Now things get really juicy. WW and BA are being pulled into the Council, under fake names. They decide to use that as an advantage and claim Masons. I will say here that this makes no sense. If the reward was to give us Masons, what was the rest of the Council all about? I don't think Jimmmmm would just add such an unneccessary thing to a reward that is otherwise pretty straightforward. Two, why wouldn't they claim their names? Doing so would maybe kill one of them, but then they know there's scum among Hydrad/Ichi, which seems a good bargain. Three, WW and BA, really? What are the odds for two players that are so scummy to be chosen as Masons?

The issue with me and BA in the QT I already addressed.  Pulling two remaining scum players (what would happen if there were one or three?) into a QT under pseudonyms as a Town reward is just not reasonable. 

I didn't think about using our names to out potential scum in Hydrad/Ichi.  But not a very foolproof plan.. it doesn't prove they're scum just because one of us died.  Also, even so, it would still be the word of me/BA against scum in Hydrad/Ichi. 

Three, WW and BA, really? What are the odds for two players that are so scummy to be chosen as Masons?

This part amounts to I'm scummy because I'm scummy.  And anyway, I wasn't.  I agree that BA was acting scummy, but I was not and you were the only one that had cast suspicion on me before.

[Witherweaver]

Me targeting BA with my ability is obvious, by the way... he's the only player whose alignment I know. I guess I could have thought of it in terms of having other people verify my role, but that didn't occur to me.  My idea going into the night was simply to target whomever I thought was the Towniest player (it may have still been you there, but at this point I was getting nervous about your claim) and announce it the next day.  When BA was confirmed, it made the most sense to target him.  I didn't announce it in the QT because that would give away my identity.

[Witherweaver]

Maybe you can argue pseudonyms were not a good idea.  I'm not sure.  I was actually going to just post as myself without thinking it through much (I didn't immediately see the need for pseudonyms), though BA had already posted in there as Bob and suggested we use them.  And I figured there must be a reason why we have them at all, and I'm guessing it was because scum could have been Neighbors.  So using them seemed safer, since I couldn't think of a good reason not to.

[pingpongsam]

Firstly, I don't think I should specify who I am going to target because that makes them an obvious NK candidate with the WIFOM that scum!pps would claim his target accidentally died. If scum NK my target with luck then lucky them but I'm not thinking it wise to tell them the target up front. The real fun will be when I send my die to scum and they deny having received it and it comes down to a liar-liar situation where I am certain to lose. so, let's hope I target a townie that survives.

As for my role power. I can't quote waht is said but it is rather terse and thus open to some interpretation but this much is clear:

A) I give a die to someone and they knowingly receive a d12.
B) When any other player gains a die through any means at all that die will be a d8 and they will be unaware of it.
B1) I believe that only one person will receive a d8, it is not abundantly clear because someone pointed out all of this night stuff happens simultaneously but I am assuming my role power has some resolution order that Jimmmmm mapped out beforehand. Again, my interpretation is only one player will receive a single d8 and they won't know it is a d8 only that they received a die or some dice but that reception would be through some other means than my giving of the d12 to another person.
B2) In other words, in order for me to solely insure that a specific recipient received the d8 I would presumably have to give them the d12 and then have additional capacity to immediately give them more dice like faust was able to do with the reward and specify that person as the recipient. Even then I don't know Jimmmmm's order of resolution so I couldn't be certain I had given that person the d8 even in this hypothetical situation.
C) The person who receives the d8 will alternate between it and the other dice when they roll which insinuates to me that the d8 is not consumed until they run entirely out of dice and even then I cannot be 100% certain it doesn't reappear if they were to have additional dice supplied to them after exhausting the initial amount. There is simply not that much information in my PM. If we really want clarification on these things I can ask in my QT.

So for example let us say that the recipient of the d8 had 2 dice and received 3 in the night (one of them being the sneaky d8) so he begins the day with 5 dice. Let us say he rolls 3 dice he will effectively be rolling a d12, d12, d8 configuration. Then, let us say a day transpires and he goes into the next day with 2 dice in supply and rolls those dice that day. He would be rolling a d8,d12 configuration on that day.

That's how i understand it.

Another question popped into my head, if they were to do like Ash and trade all of their dice for something from say the LD and then later gain dice would the d8 still be there? I do not know.

[Beyond Awesome]

Please explain PPS why you made a big deal out of your role being anti-town? Now that you have clarified, your claim sounds town.

Let's look at this scenario.

Player 1 gets 1d12 from lio

1d12 in circulation.

Scenario 2

Player 1 gets 1d12 from PPS
Player 2 gets 1d8 from Lio

Dice in circulation 1d12 and 1d8

Now, earlier, you made it seem as if the next player to recieve dice would alternate between d8's and 12's, not that they would have 1d8 in their supply instead of a d12. Anyway, you should have used your power every day if what you claim is true because putting another die in circulation is not scummy.

You see in both scenarios a d12 is in circulation, but in scenario 2 a d12 and d8 is in circulation.

Now, can we please lynch PPS please?

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, PPS you keep changing your story on how your ability works. You can't even keep your lie straight.

[pingpongsam]

Yeah, it's awesome to not be able to roll over 8 and not have any idea why your rolls are coming out so low when you're trying to get that high number and then everyone says you must be scum for low rolling and mislynches you. Wonderful way to treat fellow townies.

Please tell me you're going to feel like an idiot when I flip town.

I have not changed any stories.

[pingpongsam]

Also, you are incorrect, my power only puts one additional die into the universe (per use). The d8 is given by another play unwittingly, in place of the d12 they thought they were giving.

[Beyond Awesome]

In one side, you are saying they get 1 d8. No big deal there. On another side, you are saying every other die they roll will be a d8. Make up your mind.

PPE

[Witherweaver]

Also, PPS you keep changing your story on how your ability works. You can't even keep your lie straight.

The only change, I think, was him initially saying it "directly" inserted a die to the more complicated explanation.  This was brought up before.  What he described here is, I think, consistent with what he said after being prompted for more explanation.

[Witherweaver]

In one side, you are saying they get 1 d8. No big deal there. On another side, you are saying every other die they roll will be a d8. Make up your mind.

PPE

I think the latter was said by Faust, not PPS.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, you are incorrect, my power only puts one additional die into the universe (per use). The d8 is given by another play unwittingly, in place of the d12 they thought they were giving.

Okay, so a player has 1d8 in their supply. Big deal. That is one more die in circulation.

PPE

[Beyond Awesome]

In one side, you are saying they get 1 d8. No big deal there. On another side, you are saying every other die they roll will be a d8. Make up your mind.

PPE

I think the latter was said by Faust, not PPS.

I think PPS said it at one point as well.

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, it's awesome to not be able to roll over 8 and not have any idea why your rolls are coming out so low when you're trying to get that high number and then everyone says you must be scum for low rolling and mislynches you. Wonderful way to treat fellow townies.

Please tell me you're going to feel like an idiot when I flip town.

I have not changed any stories.

But it's only one die that is a d8, right?

[pingpongsam]

My PM uses the word "alternate". The rolling player will alternate between the d8 and the d12s in their supply.

[pingpongsam]

It isn't clear if the d8 gets consumed in one alternation or not. That it is not clear leads me to believe the d8 continues to be alternated against until the supply is exhausted. Yes, it is only one d8 but it appears to live on until all dice are gone.

[Witherweaver]

My PM uses the word "alternate". The rolling player will alternate between the d8 and the d12s in their supply.

This doesn't make sense to me.  How many d8's are in their supply?

[Witherweaver]

Notably, this thread will soon overcome "Homage to the Best Card" and may eventually overcome "Random Stuff".  Let's all take a moment to pat ourselves on the back.

[Beyond Awesome]

It isn't clear if the d8 gets consumed in one alternation or not. That it is not clear leads me to believe the d8 continues to be alternated against until the supply is exhausted. Yes, it is only one d8 but it appears to live on until all dice are gone.

If it is only one d8, then once it has been rolled, it has been rolled.

[pingpongsam]

My PM uses the word "alternate". The rolling player will alternate between the d8 and the d12s in their supply.

This doesn't make sense to me.  How many d8's are in their supply?

There should be only the one. Look, if you want certainty I'll have to ask Jimmmmm. Do we care that much? If so, I'll ask. I don;t know how many times I can say the PM is terse and is not at all clear about the specifics. The whole of the role description is 5 sentences and the bit about what happens to the guy with the d8 is a single sentence.

[pingpongsam]

It isn't clear if the d8 gets consumed in one alternation or not. That it is not clear leads me to believe the d8 continues to be alternated against until the supply is exhausted. Yes, it is only one d8 but it appears to live on until all dice are gone.

If it is only one d8, then once it has been rolled, it has been rolled.

It is amazing to me that you have absolute certainty on the thing I have exclusive access to yet am wholly uncertain about.

[Beyond Awesome]

My PM uses the word "alternate". The rolling player will alternate between the d8 and the d12s in their supply.

This doesn't make sense to me.  How many d8's are in their supply?

There should be only the one. Look, if you want certainty I'll have to ask Jimmmmm. Do we care that much? If so, I'll ask. I don;t know how many times I can say the PM is terse and is not at all clear about the specifics. The whole of the role description is 5 sentences and the bit about what happens to the guy with the d8 is a single sentence.

You can ask Jimmm, but I won't believe a word that supposedly comes back at this point.

[Witherweaver]

Also, you are incorrect, my power only puts one additional die into the universe (per use). The d8 is given by another play unwittingly, in place of the d12 they thought they were giving.

That's what he was saying.  His argument is that it's an additional die, so it's not bad.  That argument might be flawed

[Archetype]

This totally reminds me of PPS in Time War Mafia.

can we please lynch PPS please?

[Witherweaver]

My PM uses the word "alternate". The rolling player will alternate between the d8 and the d12s in their supply.

This doesn't make sense to me.  How many d8's are in their supply?

There should be only the one. Look, if you want certainty I'll have to ask Jimmmmm. Do we care that much? If so, I'll ask. I don;t know how many times I can say the PM is terse and is not at all clear about the specifics. The whole of the role description is 5 sentences and the bit about what happens to the guy with the d8 is a single sentence.

I mean it kind of matters.. this role is weird.  It's also entirely unverifiable except for the "give a player an extra (d12) die" part.  BA's ability doesn't work to verify the d8-ness of your ability.

[faust]

If PPS was really lying, he would already have decided how his role works.

[faust]

This totally reminds me of PPS in Time War Mafia.

can we please lynch PPS please?

As the player who called PPS out in Time War, I tell you you are wrong.

[Beyond Awesome]

If what PPS claims is true, if that were my role, I would have guessed the player would get 1d8 and that once the die is rolled, it is rolled. I would not assume it to be anti-town if I had that power in my hands. I would see it as a way to put more dice into circulation. If I was uncertain about my role, I would have asked Jimmm for clarification a long time ago.

[Witherweaver]

If PPS was really lying, he would already have decided how his role works.

So here's what I don't get.  If you're certain PPS's role is true, and you know that you're Town, then why do you need investigations tomorrow to verify those things?  If the next step is ``lynch Ash'', why don't you want to lynch him now?

[Archetype]

If what PPS claims is true, if that were my role, I would have guessed the player would get 1d8 and that once the die is rolled, it is rolled. I would not assume it to be anti-town if I had that power in my hands. I would see it as a way to put more dice into circulation. If I was uncertain about my role, I would have asked Jimmm for clarification a long time ago.

This. If he really was confused, he should of asked Jimmmmm.

This totally reminds me of PPS in Time War Mafia.

can we please lynch PPS please?

As the player who called PPS out in Time War, I tell you you are wrong.

I disagree. His confusion about his own claim reminds me of the inconsistencies surrounding his fake ambiguous doctor-protecting role in Time War.

[faust]

If PPS was really lying, he would already have decided how his role works.

So here's what I don't get.  If you're certain PPS's role is true, and you know that you're Town, then why do you need investigations tomorrow to verify those things?  If the next step is ``lynch Ash'', why don't you want to lynch him now?

How thick are you? I think you're scum.

[Witherweaver]

If PPS was really lying, he would already have decided how his role works.

So here's what I don't get.  If you're certain PPS's role is true, and you know that you're Town, then why do you need investigations tomorrow to verify those things?  If the next step is ``lynch Ash'', why don't you want to lynch him now?

How thick are you? I think you're scum.

So what's with all this talk about verifying roles and figuring out who to lynch tomorrow?

[pingpongsam]

This totally reminds me of PPS in Time War Mafia.

can we please lynch PPS please?

I did completely create a role there and tried to craft it to make me someone you'd not want to lynch and to explain why I was invisible at night. when there was a wrench thrown into the works I had to try to recraft the role on the fly and it fell apart. Minus that one wrench it was a brilliant plan and you know it.

If I get lynched because my role is a total wonk then the fault lies with the designer, namely, Jimmmmm, register your complaint with him. That I am being demonized for not wanting to screw with random people's dice is really kind of crazy. This is no brilliant plan, this is completely stupid to try to make up. I could have just claimed VT if I wanted to remain out the role claiming business.

As it is, the role should be verifiable with the pool of people this small. If you don't care to verify the role then just throw the game away today and mislynch me now.

[pingpongsam]

If PPS was really lying, he would already have decided how his role works.

So here's what I don't get.  If you're certain PPS's role is true, and you know that you're Town, then why do you need investigations tomorrow to verify those things?  If the next step is ``lynch Ash'', why don't you want to lynch him now?

How thick are you? I think you're scum.

So what's with all this talk about verifying roles and figuring out who to lynch tomorrow?

Because your whole angle against me is that I must be lying. If we prove me not lying your case falls apart. This is why you oppose the no lynch plan. Clearly no one is going to lynch the magical masons but no lynch is an option. Unfortunately the magical masons are vehemently opposed to it because they are so sure as the Town psychics that a fellow townie is scum.

[Beyond Awesome]

Notably, this thread will soon overcome "Homage to the Best Card" and may eventually overcome "Random Stuff".  Let's all take a moment to pat ourselves on the back.

Has a mafia game ever lasted this many pages? I guess the whole dice mechanic thing really adds a lot to discussion.

[Witherweaver]

That doesn't really explain why you wouldn't ask for clarity about your role. 

[pingpongsam]

That doesn't really explain why you wouldn't ask for clarity about your role.

sure it does. I said right up front that I was not going to use my power. If I am not going to use then why do I care about specifically how it works? It is only now that everyone wants to try to catch me in some lie about the thing that I clearly can't perfectly describe that I need these specifics.

If you had any sense or if you were town you'd know scum doesn't go in with half baked ideas like this, it would be suicide. VT is a perfectly reasonable alternative to this insanity.

[Witherweaver]

If PPS was really lying, he would already have decided how his role works.

So here's what I don't get.  If you're certain PPS's role is true, and you know that you're Town, then why do you need investigations tomorrow to verify those things?  If the next step is ``lynch Ash'', why don't you want to lynch him now?

How thick are you? I think you're scum.

So what's with all this talk about verifying roles and figuring out who to lynch tomorrow?

Because your whole angle against me is that I must be lying. If we prove me not lying your case falls apart. This is why you oppose the no lynch plan. Clearly no one is going to lynch the magical masons but no lynch is an option. Unfortunately the magical masons are vehemently opposed to it because they are so sure as the Town psychics that a fellow townie is scum.

I'm not sure that you are scum (I'm still voting for Ash, fyi), but the issue is there are many scenarios where you will not be verified tomorrow.  Then what?  Do we automatically lynch you? 

Okay fine, I have a big thing against it because it's proposed by the antitowniest antitown player of all the antitown players and there's a big bias there.  Also the last time Faust  proposed no lynch was in Xmen as scum.  I really am considering it, I just don't feel good about it.

[Witherweaver]

That doesn't really explain why you wouldn't ask for clarity about your role.

sure it does. I said right up front that I was not going to use my power. If I am not going to use then why do I care about specifically how it works? It is only now that everyone wants to try to catch me in some lie about the thing that I clearly can't perfectly describe that I need these specifics.

If you had any sense or if you were town you'd know scum doesn't go in with half baked ideas like this, it would be suicide. VT is a perfectly reasonable alternative to this insanity.

Man.. my ability didn't seem very good for town, but I didn't decide I was never going to use it. My first instinct was that it was an anti-town role, too. If I had a role whose mechanics were unclear, I'd ask for clarity, not just say "nah, never gonna use it".  We see there are some interpretations of your role where it isn't a bad thing.. why not ask and find out?

[pingpongsam]

I'm not sure that you are scum (I'm still voting for Ash, fyi), but the issue is there are many scenarios where you will not be verified tomorrow.  Then what?  Do we automatically lynch you?

I have trouble imagining it going any other way except if scum knows that by denying they received my d12 they will get the next lynch which may or may not be true. But yeah, if my target gets NK'd I'd say I am toast.

[Witherweaver]

I'm not sure that you are scum (I'm still voting for Ash, fyi), but the issue is there are many scenarios where you will not be verified tomorrow.  Then what?  Do we automatically lynch you?

I have trouble imagining it going any other way except if scum knows that by denying they received my d12 they will get the next lynch which may or may not be true. But yeah, if my target gets NK'd I'd say I am toast.

Or if your target gets targeted by dice destroying abilities, which if Faust is to be believed there are two of.

[Beyond Awesome]

If PPS was really lying, he would already have decided how his role works.

So here's what I don't get.  If you're certain PPS's role is true, and you know that you're Town, then why do you need investigations tomorrow to verify those things?  If the next step is ``lynch Ash'', why don't you want to lynch him now?

How thick are you? I think you're scum.

So what's with all this talk about verifying roles and figuring out who to lynch tomorrow?

Because your whole angle against me is that I must be lying. If we prove me not lying your case falls apart. This is why you oppose the no lynch plan. Clearly no one is going to lynch the magical masons but no lynch is an option. Unfortunately the magical masons are vehemently opposed to it because they are so sure as the Town psychics that a fellow townie is scum.

I'm not sure that you are scum (I'm still voting for Ash, fyi), but the issue is there are many scenarios where you will not be verified tomorrow.  Then what?  Do we automatically lynch you? 

Okay fine, I have a big thing against it because it's proposed by the antitowniest antitown player of all the antitown players and there's a big bias there.  Also the last time Faust  proposed no lynch was in Xmen as scum.  I really am considering it, I just don't feel good about it.

Did a lot of players think Faust was town that game?

[Witherweaver]

Or if you or Lio pick the same target....

[Witherweaver]

If PPS was really lying, he would already have decided how his role works.

So here's what I don't get.  If you're certain PPS's role is true, and you know that you're Town, then why do you need investigations tomorrow to verify those things?  If the next step is ``lynch Ash'', why don't you want to lynch him now?

How thick are you? I think you're scum.

So what's with all this talk about verifying roles and figuring out who to lynch tomorrow?

Because your whole angle against me is that I must be lying. If we prove me not lying your case falls apart. This is why you oppose the no lynch plan. Clearly no one is going to lynch the magical masons but no lynch is an option. Unfortunately the magical masons are vehemently opposed to it because they are so sure as the Town psychics that a fellow townie is scum.

I'm not sure that you are scum (I'm still voting for Ash, fyi), but the issue is there are many scenarios where you will not be verified tomorrow.  Then what?  Do we automatically lynch you? 

Okay fine, I have a big thing against it because it's proposed by the antitowniest antitown player of all the antitown players and there's a big bias there.  Also the last time Faust  proposed no lynch was in Xmen as scum.  I really am considering it, I just don't feel good about it.

Did a lot of players think Faust was town that game?

No, he was kind of caught there, or it was him or someone else.  So I'm not sure it is so relevant here.  But I'm just having a hard time trusting him.

[Witherweaver]

Or if tonight's ability effects dice supplies in any way whatsoever.

[Hydrad]

Ok after all this I feel like pps is telling the truth about his role. But I also believe WW and BA. Faust is town for me also. I think it might be a arch/ash or lio/ash team. Maybe pps is still scum but I think he actually has that role.

But after listening to like 20 pages of almost the same argument I'm in favor of no lynch

Ppe:3

[Witherweaver]

Ok after all this I feel like pps is telling the truth about his role. But I also believe WW and BA. Faust is town for me also. I think it might be a arch/ash or lio/ash team. Maybe pps is still scum but I think he actually has that role.

But after listening to like 20 pages of almost the same argument I'm in favor of no lynch

Ppe:3

Lynching Ash wouldn't be better than No Lynch?

[pingpongsam]

I posted 4 pertinent questions to Jimmmmm about my power in my QT.

[pingpongsam]

Ok after all this I feel like pps is telling the truth about his role. But I also believe WW and BA. Faust is town for me also. I think it might be a arch/ash or lio/ash team. Maybe pps is still scum but I think he actually has that role.

But after listening to like 20 pages of almost the same argument I'm in favor of no lynch

Ppe:3

you might need to make that in Vote: form.

[Beyond Awesome]

There were 42 dice in total. I kept three. If anyone is interested, I will post the dice distribution here.

Yes,

Actually, I would like a breakdown.

[pingpongsam]

faust, assuming BA/WW are town masons who are your picks for scum?

[faust]

If PPS was really lying, he would already have decided how his role works.

So here's what I don't get.  If you're certain PPS's role is true, and you know that you're Town, then why do you need investigations tomorrow to verify those things?  If the next step is ``lynch Ash'', why don't you want to lynch him now?

How thick are you? I think you're scum.

So what's with all this talk about verifying roles and figuring out who to lynch tomorrow?

You said I should assume you and BA as ICs. That was based on dong that. But I don't actually do that.

[faust]

Ok after all this I feel like pps is telling the truth about his role. But I also believe WW and BA. Faust is town for me also. I think it might be a arch/ash or lio/ash team. Maybe pps is still scum but I think he actually has that role.

But after listening to like 20 pages of almost the same argument I'm in favor of no lynch

Ppe:3

The correct syntax is vote: No lynch.

[Witherweaver]

So if BA and I are ICs, where does scum lie right now?

[faust]

faust, assuming BA/WW are town masons who are your picks for scum?

ash/Archetype seems most likely.

[faust]

So if BA and I are ICs, where does scum lie right now?


Among lio, ash, PPS, Arch. Why do we have to keep repeating the same facts over and over again?

[Witherweaver]

...

[pingpongsam]

I guess I am confused as to why liopoil isn't a possibility to faust. As I see it, if I take the profoundly scummy WW/BA at their word then my reads from scummiest to towniest go something like this

archetype
hydrad
liopoil
ashersky
faust

I don't claim to have a read on a pairing. If I were shooting in the dark the best pairing would be lio/ash and next best would be arch/hydrad.

[pingpongsam]

I see now, faust considers lio and arch possibilities. I asked a while ago and never got the answer. Why the conftown read on hydrad? His presence in the council room doesn't absolve him if WW/BA are masons, imho.

[Witherweaver]

I see now, faust considers lio and arch possibilities. I asked a while ago and never got the answer. Why the conftown read on hydrad? His presence in the council room doesn't absolve him if WW/BA are masons, imho.

He could be defending us for town cred, but I don't think so.  He didn't have to bring up all the stuff he did to try to derail the scum plot theories.  He could be defending us for town cred, but I don't think so.  Plus, his reactions to things in the QT seemed very townie to me.

He's not confirmed to me, but on the bottom of my list.

[Witherweaver]

somehow repeated a sentence in there~

[pingpongsam]

So it is primarily hydrad's relationship to the Mason claim and his presence and behavior in the council room that earns him the town pass he seems to be given and not something else I am overlooking, then.

[pingpongsam]

Regarding the council room reward, I have though about it a great deal and I believe the most likely design was to make masons of two random people out of the pool of Townies and then to have 2 other random people out of the pool of all players be present by actual name in the QT. Thus, I don't think the mere presence of a person in the QT makes them town but it doesn't make them scum either. I was hunkey dorey with the WW/BA mason claim until they coordinated an attack against no lynch and me specifically and I think faust was completely on point for seeing it the same as I was seeing it. As I have said before, staying anonymous would be the easier move to make if WW/BA were the scum team. What supports this more than anything is the fact that the regards are random and the setup tends to break with 3 living scum although I suppose then the 2 scum members would be a random selection from the 3.

[Witherweaver]

Regarding the council room reward, I have though about it a great deal and I believe the most likely design was to make masons of two random people out of the pool of Townies and then to have 2 other random people out of the pool of all players be present by actual name in the QT. Thus, I don't think the mere presence of a person in the QT makes them town but it doesn't make them scum either. I was hunkey dorey with the WW/BA mason claim until they coordinated an attack against no lynch and me specifically and I think faust was completely on point for seeing it the same as I was seeing it. As I have said before, staying anonymous would be the easier move to make if WW/BA were the scum team. What supports this more than anything is the fact that the regards are random and the setup tends to break with 3 living scum although I suppose then the 2 scum members would be a random selection from the 3.

What about 1 living scum?

[Witherweaver]

So it is primarily hydrad's relationship to the Mason claim and his presence and behavior in the council room that earns him the town pass he seems to be given and not something else I am overlooking, then.

For me, yes, coupled with the fact that he did nothing to make me suspect him earlier.  I think other people had seen him as generally townie, as well.

[pingpongsam]

lio's tunnel on me strikes me as too focused to be scum. The only good explanation for it is to buy the time for a lynch proof partner. So, if lio forces a mislynch which results in him getting lynched the next day that leaves sufficient town alive on D6 to kill what would likely be obv scum even if loved.

logic:

D4 - 6 town, 2 scum - mislynch town and NK town
D5 - 4 town, 2 scum - lynch scum and NK town
D6 - 3 town, 1 scum

So, for the time being I put lio as likely town.

[pingpongsam]

What about 1 living scum?

Excellent point.

[pingpongsam]

What about 1 living scum?

Excellent point.

That said, then the scum was anonymous and the other guys practically IC themselves without the need for mason shenanigans so it's a good town reward.

[pingpongsam]

My general read of ash has been town over the past couple days.

So I'm down to archetype or hydrad if I am going to believe WW/BA.

I'm not seeing much motion towards lynching either of them so no lynch seems to be about the only option available.

[ashersky]

BA was scummily twisting PPS's claim to make him look scummy over the past few pages.  He's trying to argue a lie, or is misunderstanding PPS.

My understanding:

PPS does two things.  First, he actively targets a player to receive one 1d12.  Second, unbeknownst to him, the next player in the game to receive a die, instead of receiving whatever die it should have been, gets a 1d8 instead.

So, generally speaking, the game state change is:

+1 1d12 and +1 1d8 INSTEAD OF +2 1d12

That's a net loss, outside of edge cases.  BA is arguing that it would be pro-town to do that.  Tell me how/why, and tell me why arguing for that isn't scummy as hell.

Not to mention, if it changes all received dice to 1d8 for alternating or whatever, that's even worse.

[Witherweaver]

BA was scummily twisting PPS's claim to make him look scummy over the past few pages.  He's trying to argue a lie, or is misunderstanding PPS.

My understanding:

PPS does two things.  First, he actively targets a player to receive one 1d12.  Second, unbeknownst to him, the next player in the game to receive a die, instead of receiving whatever die it should have been, gets a 1d8 instead.

So, generally speaking, the game state change is:

+1 1d12 and +1 1d8 INSTEAD OF +2 1d12

That's a net loss, outside of edge cases.  BA is arguing that it would be pro-town to do that.  Tell me how/why, and tell me why arguing for that isn't scummy as hell.

Not to mention, if it changes all received dice to 1d8 for alternating or whatever, that's even worse.

Uh.. The game state is change is vs PPS adding a die and X adding a die vs. just X adding a die is

+1 1d12 +1 1d8 instead of +1 1d12.

If PPS doesn't use his power, the initial 1d12 doesn't get added.

[ashersky]

Im arguing against the way BA argued it.

Do you think secretly affecting how other players' dice work is pro-town?

[Witherweaver]

Im arguing against the way BA argued it.

Do you think secretly affecting how other players' dice work is pro-town?

He didn't argue it that way.  He's arguing that PPS is still adding a total die to the supply of dice, which isn't that bad, even though it's a d8.  Though it's not immediately a d8, it's only a d8 the next time someone gets a die.

[pingpongsam]

Yeah, I only introduce one new dice into the game. The d8 is just a mutation of a die otherwise gained by some other player. IINM, I am the only one with the ability to actually bring a die into existence, that is, AFAICT the die does not originate from my supply.

[pingpongsam]

I do not bring a d8 into existence. Someone's d12 gets mutated into a d8 when I bring a completely separate d12 into existence.

[Witherweaver]

I do not bring a d8 into existence. Someone's d12 gets mutated into a d8 when I bring a completely separate d12 into existence.

Those are essentially equivalent when you look at the total universe of dice.  Adding 1d12 then a die later being changed to a d8 is basically adding 1d8.

[Witherweaver]

Modulo those weird details of your role that we don't understand.

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, I only introduce one new dice into the game. The d8 is just a mutation of a die otherwise gained by some other player. IINM, I am the only one with the ability to actually bring a die into existence, that is, AFAICT the die does not originate from my supply.

I thought Lio's role just added dice.

[ashersky]

Im arguing against the way BA argued it.

Do you think secretly affecting how other players' dice work is pro-town?

He didn't argue it that way.  He's arguing that PPS is still adding a total die to the supply of dice, which isn't that bad, even though it's a d8.  Though it's not immediately a d8, it's only a d8 the next time someone gets a die.

But he isn't bringing a 1d8 into existence, as PPS has said.  He's downgrading someone else's 1d12 secretly and messing with their results.

Imagine if he's scum, he just gives 1d12 to his scum partner and gets a free negative effect on a random townie.

[Witherweaver]

Im arguing against the way BA argued it.

Do you think secretly affecting how other players' dice work is pro-town?

He didn't argue it that way.  He's arguing that PPS is still adding a total die to the supply of dice, which isn't that bad, even though it's a d8.  Though it's not immediately a d8, it's only a d8 the next time someone gets a die.

But he isn't bringing a 1d8 into existence, as PPS has said.  He's downgrading someone else's 1d12 secretly and messing with their results.

Imagine if he's scum, he just gives 1d12 to his scum partner and gets a free negative effect on a random townie.

He is bringing 1d12 into existence, and then someone's d12 gets downgraded into a d8.  So, directly after PPS uses his ability, the entire population of dice has been increased by 1.

[Witherweaver]

Im arguing against the way BA argued it.

Do you think secretly affecting how other players' dice work is pro-town?

He didn't argue it that way.  He's arguing that PPS is still adding a total die to the supply of dice, which isn't that bad, even though it's a d8.  Though it's not immediately a d8, it's only a d8 the next time someone gets a die.

But he isn't bringing a 1d8 into existence, as PPS has said.  He's downgrading someone else's 1d12 secretly and messing with their results.

Imagine if he's scum, he just gives 1d12 to his scum partner and gets a free negative effect on a random townie.

Yes, that could be a useful ability for scum to have.

[Witherweaver]

BA was scummily twisting PPS's claim to make him look scummy over the past few pages.  He's trying to argue a lie, or is misunderstanding PPS.

My understanding:

PPS does two things.  First, he actively targets a player to receive one 1d12.  Second, unbeknownst to him, the next player in the game to receive a die, instead of receiving whatever die it should have been, gets a 1d8 instead.

So, generally speaking, the game state change is:

+1 1d12 and +1 1d8 INSTEAD OF +2 1d12

That's a net loss, outside of edge cases.  BA is arguing that it would be pro-town to do that.  Tell me how/why, and tell me why arguing for that isn't scummy as hell.

Not to mention, if it changes all received dice to 1d8 for alternating or whatever, that's even worse.

This statement is incorrect. 

[liopoil]

faust, pps' D1 actions got him towncred. pps does crazy stuff.

This is not a carte blanche to view anything PPS does as scummy.

sure, but it is a reason to not give him towncred for doing crazy stuff.

[pingpongsam]

Yeah, I only introduce one new dice into the game. The d8 is just a mutation of a die otherwise gained by some other player. IINM, I am the only one with the ability to actually bring a die into existence, that is, AFAICT the die does not originate from my supply.

I thought Lio's role just added dice.

I found where lio claimed and he specifically says that when he gives a die he loses a die and it doesn't work if he doesn't have one to discard.

[Beyond Awesome]

My argument is that PPS still brings in another die into existence. I am saying 1d12 + 1d8 is better than 1d12 and 0d8. Also, I doubt my ability as an Arms Inspector would see someone who has a d8 and a d12. According to my role, I see all possible numbers someone can roll.

[Witherweaver]

My argument is that PPS still brings in another die into existence. I am saying 1d12 + 1d8 is better than 1d12 and 0d8. Also, I doubt my ability as an Arms Inspector would see someone who has a d8 and a d12. According to my role, I see all possible numbers someone can roll.

I thought you just got a list of numbers 1,2,3,4,...,12.  So you can't tell the difference between d8+d12 and just d12.

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, I only introduce one new dice into the game. The d8 is just a mutation of a die otherwise gained by some other player. IINM, I am the only one with the ability to actually bring a die into existence, that is, AFAICT the die does not originate from my supply.

I thought Lio's role just added dice.

I found where lio claimed and he specifically says that when he gives a die he loses a die and it doesn't work if he doesn't have one to discard.

Ohhhh.. I thought Faust meant that Lio gave 1d12 number of dice.

[liopoil]

Yeah, I only introduce one new dice into the game. The d8 is just a mutation of a die otherwise gained by some other player. IINM, I am the only one with the ability to actually bring a die into existence, that is, AFAICT the die does not originate from my supply.

I thought Lio's role just added dice.

I found where lio claimed and he specifically says that when he gives a die he loses a die and it doesn't work if he doesn't have one to discard.

I lose ONE die. My target gains 1d12 dice, so anywhere from 1 to 12. It's like the die I discard is rolled, although as far as I know it's 1d12 even if my dice are restricted somehow.

[Beyond Awesome]

My argument is that PPS still brings in another die into existence. I am saying 1d12 + 1d8 is better than 1d12 and 0d8. Also, I doubt my ability as an Arms Inspector would see someone who has a d8 and a d12. According to my role, I see all possible numbers someone can roll.

I thought you just got a list of numbers 1,2,3,4,...,12.  So you can't tell the difference between d8+d12 and just d12.

That's what I am saying. If someone gets a d8, I won't know.

[pingpongsam]

My argument is that PPS still brings in another die into existence. I am saying 1d12 + 1d8 is better than 1d12 and 0d8. Also, I doubt my ability as an Arms Inspector would see someone who has a d8 and a d12. According to my role, I see all possible numbers someone can roll.

I thought you just got a list of numbers 1,2,3,4,...,12.  So you can't tell the difference between d8+d12 and just d12.

That's what I am saying. If someone gets a d8, I won't know.

Yeah, maybe that is so but we are looking for the dice destroyer, right? Do you think the dice destroyer also has the ability to give a guy of his choosing a d12?

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, PPS power is not anti-town like he made a big deal saying on D1.

[Beyond Awesome]

My argument is that PPS still brings in another die into existence. I am saying 1d12 + 1d8 is better than 1d12 and 0d8. Also, I doubt my ability as an Arms Inspector would see someone who has a d8 and a d12. According to my role, I see all possible numbers someone can roll.

I thought you just got a list of numbers 1,2,3,4,...,12.  So you can't tell the difference between d8+d12 and just d12.

That's what I am saying. If someone gets a d8, I won't know.

Yeah, maybe that is so but we are looking for the dice destroyer, right? Do you think the dice destroyer also has the ability to give a guy of his choosing a d12?

I don't. But, you have never used your power and your claim sounds fake and you also said your power was anti-town which it clearly is not.

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, okay, I admit. I can sort of seeing it being anti-town because one die is restricted in how high it can rool, but someone is still gaining an extra die. I won't say it is anti-town. The ability is neutral at best or slightly pro-town.

[Beyond Awesome]

I will also say Ash's VT claim sounds fake. Plus, we know that the LD visited him and he spent dice. So, that is a scary thought there. Between you and Ash, I am torn.

[liopoil]

Ok after all this I feel like pps is telling the truth about his role. But I also believe WW and BA. Faust is town for me also. I think it might be a arch/ash or lio/ash team. Maybe pps is still scum but I think he actually has that role.

But after listening to like 20 pages of almost the same argument I'm in favor of no lynch

Ppe:3

I agree there is probably some element of truth to pps' role. It might even all be true. More likely he fibbed parts of it, particularly the d8 thing, but that doesn't matter. The point is that he is still scum. He might not be the dice destructor. I think it totally possible that dice destruction is a factional power as well. Reads based on roles are just so weak. He has played his role very anti-townly as well. His claiming it on D1 was only potentially a good idea as scum, and really he should be using it, as it does seem to me to be slightly pro-town on average. My role has the potential to be anti-town too, if I give to scum or if the 1d12 is a 1. However I've still used it each night I could because on average it is pro-town.

No lynch will most likely not give us any more information than we already have, and it may come back to bite us depending on how night stuff goes down.

Can we lynch pps now?

[ashersky]

I will also say Ash's VT claim sounds fake. Plus, we know that the LD visited him and he spent dice. So, that is a scary thought there. Between you and Ash, I am torn.

How can a VT claim sound "fake"?  It's either true or a lie, but I didn't make the role up.  Unless you think there are different flavors of townie for the monsters to eat, like chocolate, neopolitan, and banana creme.

If you really are town, why in the world are you doing everything in your power to ensure every single one of your posts paints you as the scummiest player to ever play a game of mafia on this forum?

[pingpongsam]

Well, okay, I admit. I can sort of seeing it being anti-town because one die is restricted in how high it can rool, but someone is still gaining an extra die. I won't say it is anti-town. The ability is neutral at best or slightly pro-town.

It becomes relatively protown when A) I have a better idea of who town is and who is not and B) when roll restrictions start to matter less. In short, the subjective nature of my role changes with game state. In early state my power was remarkably anti-town. That is when I claimed it as such. Now that the game state has changed to where the power could be maybe useful and definitely confirmable I am willing to use it but you want to act as if the game state hasn't changed as a basis for saying I have acted scummy with my role power. I argue I have acted quite responsibly with it.

[ashersky]

On a scale of holyfuckthatismadeup to absolutelyexists, BA's role is the worst (and VT is the best, given we have proof that role is in the game).

Arms Inspector makes zero sense at all as a role, as it doesn't do anything unless someone doesn't have 1d12 (either up or down), and we've yet to see that occur anywhere.  By now, someone would have claimed this.

[ashersky]

Well, okay, I admit. I can sort of seeing it being anti-town because one die is restricted in how high it can rool, but someone is still gaining an extra die. I won't say it is anti-town. The ability is neutral at best or slightly pro-town.

It becomes relatively protown when A) I have a better idea of who town is and who is not and B) when roll restrictions start to matter less. In short, the subjective nature of my role changes with game state. In early state my power was remarkably anti-town. That is when I claimed it as such. Now that the game state has changed to where the power could be maybe useful and definitely confirmable I am willing to use it but you want to act as if the game state hasn't changed as a basis for saying I have acted scummy with my role power. I argue I have acted quite responsibly with it.

Giving one die is "confirmable" if no one else gives one die and the person you give it to doesn't lie.  So no, it isn't confirmable, really.

[pingpongsam]

On a scale of holyfuckthatismadeup to absolutelyexists, BA's role is the worst (and VT is the best, given we have proof that role is in the game).

Arms Inspector makes zero sense at all as a role, as it doesn't do anything unless someone doesn't have 1d12 (either up or down), and we've yet to see that occur anywhere.  By now, someone would have claimed this.

+1, pot calling kettle black to be picking at people's roles.

[faust]

I see now, faust considers lio and arch possibilities. I asked a while ago and never got the answer. Why the conftown read on hydrad? His presence in the council room doesn't absolve him if WW/BA are masons, imho.

I thought Hydrad was town almost certainly before today, and had no reason to change that read. Not confirmed, but he reads super townie.

[Beyond Awesome]

We know there are roles that modify what numbers people can roll. We only learned this fact after I claimed. Not before.

[ashersky]

We know there are roles that modify what numbers people can roll. We only learned this fact after I claimed. Not before.

You mean like the one that blocks rollable numbers?  Here's how that has to work for you:

One night, play X loses the ability to roll 1,2,3,4
Next day, that information is claimed
Next night, you confirm it
Next day, you claim it confirmed

Best case scenario, not knowing the resolution order of night actions, you could both target the same night.

And in the end, that tells us nothing whatsoever.  Since either roll, if they exist, can be help by any alignment, all you've done is confirm that someone can't roll specific numbers.  Like, what purpose does that role serve in the game?

[Beyond Awesome]

We know there are roles that modify what numbers people can roll. We only learned this fact after I claimed. Not before.

You mean like the one that blocks rollable numbers?  Here's how that has to work for you:

One night, play X loses the ability to roll 1,2,3,4
Next day, that information is claimed
Next night, you confirm it
Next day, you claim it confirmed

Best case scenario, not knowing the resolution order of night actions, you could both target the same night.

And in the end, that tells us nothing whatsoever.  Since either roll, if they exist, can be help by any alignment, all you've done is confirm that someone can't roll specific numbers.  Like, what purpose does that role serve in the game?

Well, Hydrad has never rolled higher than a 7. Maybe there is a scum player who can't roll past a certain number. Maybe Volt had a cap on his roll, but we will never know since he's dead. Maybe I have not investigated the right player yet.

[faust]

Ok after all this I feel like pps is telling the truth about his role. But I also believe WW and BA. Faust is town for me also. I think it might be a arch/ash or lio/ash team. Maybe pps is still scum but I think he actually has that role.

But after listening to like 20 pages of almost the same argument I'm in favor of no lynch

Ppe:3

I agree there is probably some element of truth to pps' role. It might even all be true. More likely he fibbed parts of it, particularly the d8 thing, but that doesn't matter. The point is that he is still scum. He might not be the dice destructor. I think it totally possible that dice destruction is a factional power as well. Reads based on roles are just so weak. He has played his role very anti-townly as well. His claiming it on D1 was only potentially a good idea as scum, and really he should be using it, as it does seem to me to be slightly pro-town on average. My role has the potential to be anti-town too, if I give to scum or if the 1d12 is a 1. However I've still used it each night I could because on average it is pro-town.

No lynch will most likely not give us any more information than we already have, and it may come back to bite us depending on how night stuff goes down.

Can we lynch pps now?

Can you please post an actual case on PPS?

[faust]

Also, ash makes so much sense right now, he can't be scum. Scum!ash generally makes much less sense to me.

[Witherweaver]

On a scale of holyfuckthatismadeup to absolutelyexists, BA's role is the worst (and VT is the best, given we have proof that role is in the game).

Arms Inspector makes zero sense at all as a role, as it doesn't do anything unless someone doesn't have 1d12 (either up or down), and we've yet to see that occur anywhere.  By now, someone would have claimed this.

God, there are three claimed abilities that disable certain numbers from being rolled.

Ash can't even make a reasonable argument.

[Witherweaver]

Also, ash makes so much sense right now, he can't be scum. Scum!ash generally makes much less sense to me.

How can you possibly be serious?!  He's posting falsity after falsity.  If you are town you have severely pulled with over your eyes this game.

[ashersky]

On a scale of holyfuckthatismadeup to absolutelyexists, BA's role is the worst (and VT is the best, given we have proof that role is in the game).

Arms Inspector makes zero sense at all as a role, as it doesn't do anything unless someone doesn't have 1d12 (either up or down), and we've yet to see that occur anywhere.  By now, someone would have claimed this.

God, there are three claimed abilities that disable certain numbers from being rolled.

Ash can't even make a reasonable argument.

Claims, claims everywhere!  I'd love some confrrmation, thanks.

[ashersky]

If WW/BA are town, they've blinded themselves with superiority complexes that are not allowed them to look at the game objectively and try to see things from all sides.  It can't just be "let's look at all situations with X=scum".  You need to consider that you may be wrong.  Until that happens, this game will just continue to be a stalemate of yelling past each other.

[Witherweaver]

We know there are roles that modify what numbers people can roll. We only learned this fact after I claimed. Not before.

You mean like the one that blocks rollable numbers?  Here's how that has to work for you:

One night, play X loses the ability to roll 1,2,3,4
Next day, that information is claimed
Next night, you confirm it
Next day, you claim it confirmed

Best case scenario, not knowing the resolution order of night actions, you could both target the same night.

And in the end, that tells us nothing whatsoever.  Since either roll, if they exist, can be help by any alignment, all you've done is confirm that someone can't roll specific numbers.  Like, what purpose does that role serve in the game?

What purpose does PPSs role serve?  What purpose does your role serve?  Or mine?

Our roles are not that great and powerful.  But, hey, his does two things.  It van confirm some of the other roles and it can determine if someone doesn't use d12s.  That could be useful to know I'm a game about rolling dice

[Witherweaver]

On a scale of holyfuckthatismadeup to absolutelyexists, BA's role is the worst (and VT is the best, given we have proof that role is in the game).

Arms Inspector makes zero sense at all as a role, as it doesn't do anything unless someone doesn't have 1d12 (either up or down), and we've yet to see that occur anywhere.  By now, someone would have claimed this.

God, there are three claimed abilities that disable certain numbers from being rolled.

Ash can't even make a reasonable argument.

Claims, claims everywhere!  I'd love some confrrmation, thanks.

Yes. All three players lied.  Brilliant.

Oh. Chairs flipped town.  Does that conformation work?

[ashersky]

Everybody, and I mean everybody, if they are town, needs to look at every single townread and ask the question:

Oh crap, what if {player} is scum?  What am I not considering?

Then look at your scumreads and ask:

Oh crap, what if {player} is town?  What am I not considering?



Instead, we have the BAHs just blindly believing in two players as Innocent Children when they are not mod-confirmed town!  They are not Innocent Children.  They are claimed, unconfirmed masons.  That is a huge difference.

[Hydrad]

Vote: no lynch

Sorry I forgot syntax. Also I see BAs role as something to confirm if people are telling the truth or not to figure out what roles exists. On its own I don't think it has any power. But in combination with others we can use it to confirm what powers exist.

PPE:3

[ashersky]

On a scale of holyfuckthatismadeup to absolutelyexists, BA's role is the worst (and VT is the best, given we have proof that role is in the game).

Arms Inspector makes zero sense at all as a role, as it doesn't do anything unless someone doesn't have 1d12 (either up or down), and we've yet to see that occur anywhere.  By now, someone would have claimed this.

God, there are three claimed abilities that disable certain numbers from being rolled.

Ash can't even make a reasonable argument.

Claims, claims everywhere!  I'd love some confrrmation, thanks.

Yes. All three players lied.  Brilliant.

Oh. Chairs flipped town.  Does that conformation work?

Chairs flipped "Town Manipulator" and we can believe his claim.  That doesn't confirm anyone else's ALIGNMENT or role.  How are you not understanding this?

If Player A flips Cop, that does not prove Player B is a Godfather.  One role does not prove the existence of another.

[Hydrad]

Everybody, and I mean everybody, if they are town, needs to look at every single townread and ask the question:

Oh crap, what if {player} is scum?  What am I not considering?

Then look at your scumreads and ask:

Oh crap, what if {player} is town?  What am I not considering?



Instead, we have the BAHs just blindly believing in two players as Innocent Children when they are not mod-confirmed town!  They are not Innocent Children.  They are claimed, unconfirmed masons.  That is a huge difference.

Don't worry I'm not blindly following them. I think they are town for now but am trying to keep my mind open. Also that's why I like the no lynch to see if we can catch someone in a lie

[ashersky]

Hey guys, BoxofDOG flipped Vanilla Townie.  That's conclusive proof that Faust is a thief!

That's a nonsense line, and it's the same one people are using the try to prove that BA's claim is superduperawesomeamazinghonest.

[Witherweaver]

Can the town player(s) out of Ash, Faust, and PPS please stop acting so scummy?

[ashersky]

Don't worry I'm not blindly following them. I think they are town for now but am trying to keep my mind open. Also that's why I like the no lynch to see if we can catch someone in a lie

I'm still not convinced we can catch anyone in a lie.  The problem with trying to confirm role claims at night is that any single liar ruins all plans.  So unless you are going to trust everyone involved in the confirmation plan, it's not going to work.

Also, scum can kill the center of any confirmation plan to ensure all the information needed doesn't make it to day.

Also, ROLES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ALIGNMENT.

[ashersky]

Can the town player(s) out of Ash, Faust, and PPS please stop acting so scummy?

Can the Town Masons, if they really exist, please stop acting so scummy?

[Witherweaver]

Hey guys, BoxofDOG flipped Vanilla Townie.  That's conclusive proof that Faust is a thief!

That's a nonsense line, and it's the same one people are using the try to prove that BA's claim is superduperawesomeamazinghonest.

There is a confirmed role that changes die rolls.

BA has an ability that inspects die roll possibilities.

BA has a role with some marginal value.

[Witherweaver]

We're not (well, I'm not) and YOU know it.

[ashersky]

Hey guys, BoxofDOG flipped Vanilla Townie.  That's conclusive proof that Faust is a thief!

That's a nonsense line, and it's the same one people are using the try to prove that BA's claim is superduperawesomeamazinghonest.

There is a confirmed role that changes die rolls.

BA has claimed an ability that inspects die roll possibilities.

BA has claimed a role with arguably some marginal value.

Fixed that for you with italics.

[liopoil]

Also, ash makes so much sense right now, he can't be scum. Scum!ash generally makes much less sense to me.

lol ash makes NO sense. If it weren't for precedent I would have thought you were sarcastic

[ashersky]

We're not (well, I'm not) and YOU know it.

Thanks for admitting you are not a mason.  Epic.

[liopoil]

Instead, we have the BAHs just blindly believing in two players as Innocent Children when they are not mod-confirmed town!  They are not Innocent Children.  They are claimed, unconfirmed masons.  That is a huge difference.

nobody is blindly believing BA and WW.

[liopoil]

We're not (well, I'm not) and YOU know it.

Thanks for admitting you are not a mason.  Epic.

That's funny.

[ashersky]

Instead, we have the BAHs just blindly believing in two players as Innocent Children when they are not mod-confirmed town!  They are not Innocent Children.  They are claimed, unconfirmed masons.  That is a huge difference.

nobody is blindly believing BA and WW.

Really?  Someone show me any proof whatsoever that we have that says we should believe them.  We have Hydrad confirming what they said in the QT.

WW keeps making the bs argument that they couldn't plan the masons claim ahead of time.  QTs are on the same website.  Just chat for twelve seconds in the scum QT, then post in the Council one.

He keeps throwing around vague times like they matter -- we have no way of knowing at what time WW actually went to quicktopic.com.  It's not confirmable.  They had plenty of time to discuss.

[Witherweaver]

We're not (well, I'm not) and YOU know it.

Thanks for admitting you are not a mason.  Epic.

Nonsense Ash post number 24275548

[ashersky]

We're not (well, I'm not) and YOU know it.

Thanks for admitting you are not a mason.  Epic.

Nonsense Ash post number 24275548

There have only been 3559 posts in thread.  Only scum lies.

[ashersky]

Hydrad -- look at the timestamps for the posts in the Council QT.  How much time pass between the very first post and WW's first post?  How much time between BA's first post and WW's first post?

[Beyond Awesome]

We're not (well, I'm not) and YOU know it.

Thanks for admitting you are not a mason.  Epic.

Nonsense Ash post number 24275548

There have only been 3559 posts in thread.  Only scum lies.

For someone big on technicalities, your post was 3560 and not 3559.

[Archetype]

We're not (well, I'm not) and YOU know it.

Thanks for admitting you are not a mason.  Epic.

Nonsense Ash post number 24275548

There have only been 3559 posts in thread.  Only scum lies.

For someone big on technicalities, your post was 3560 and not 3559.

Scumslip.

[Archetype]

But seriously let's lynch PPS. Or ash. I'm pretty sure they're both scum at this point and are pulling out all stops to get one of WW/BA lynched so they can have a good laugh when Town lynches a Mason.

[ashersky]

We're not (well, I'm not) and YOU know it.

Thanks for admitting you are not a mason.  Epic.

Nonsense Ash post number 24275548

There have only been 3559 posts in thread.  Only scum lies.

For someone big on technicalities, your post was 3560 and not 3559.

Right, so when I was writing my post, there had only been 3559 posts in thread.  Technically I was right, you are wrong.  Ergo, you are scum.

[ashersky]

But seriously let's lynch PPS. Or ash. I'm pretty sure they're both scum at this point and are pulling out all stops to get one of WW/BA lynched so they can have a good laugh when Town lynches a Mason.

If it's lio/arch scum team, they are laughing their asses off at the lynch WW/BA or lynch PPS/ash argument.

[ashersky]

Town lynching a mason isn't the worst thing in the world in setups with masons.  It's how you confirm masons, if it isn't guaranteed to be in the game.

[Archetype]

Town lynching a mason isn't the worst thing in the world in setups with masons.  It's how you confirm masons, if it isn't guaranteed to be in the game.

If we lynch a Mason today, I'm fairly certain Mafia will NK the other.

[Archetype]

Masons are confirmed by waiting for scum to kill one of them so the other becomes an IC.

[ashersky]

Town lynching a mason isn't the worst thing in the world in setups with masons.  It's how you confirm masons, if it isn't guaranteed to be in the game.

If we lynch a Mason today, I'm fairly certain Mafia will NK the other.

Maybe, but then we lose nothing for the next day.

Masons are confirmed by waiting for scum to kill one of them so the other becomes an IC.

Which is why scum won't kill either of them, to ensure this argument continues tomorrow.  Or they are scum, and then they argue that they weren't killed for that reason.

You are good arguments for lynching town masons.

[pingpongsam]

Your genius argument falls apart considering I am Vote: no lynch

[pingpongsam]

Referencing arch, there.

[Archetype]

Think of it this way.

There's a 50% chance that one of PPS/ash is scum. Increase or decrease percentages based on personal reads. If one is Town, the other could be scum and if one is scum the other could be Town.
There's a 50% chance that BA/WW are scum. Increase or decrease percentages based on personal reads/interpretation of Reward. If one is Town, the other is Town and if one is scum the other scum.

The second scenario is very high risk - high reward. If one is scum, awesome! We lynch the other the following day for the win and I applaud you for your fakeclaim detection. If one is Town, the other will surely be killed that night. The death of one will surely cause the death of the other. That's not the case if we lynch out of PPS/ash.

PPE: 2

[liopoil]

Last vote count was over 600 posts ago. Understandable, considering the activity, but Vote count please.

[pingpongsam]

Think of it this way.

There's a 50% chance that one of PPS/ash is scum. Increase or decrease percentages based on personal reads. If one is Town, the other could be scum and if one is scum the other could be Town.
There's a 50% chance that BA/WW are scum. Increase or decrease percentages based on personal reads/interpretation of Reward. If one is Town, the other is Town and if one is scum the other scum.

The second scenario is very high risk - high reward. If one is scum, awesome! We lynch the other the following day for the win and I applaud you for your fakeclaim detection. If one is Town, the other will surely be killed that night. The death of one will surely cause the death of the other. That's not the case if we lynch out of PPS/ash.

PPE: 2

Incorrect. There is nothing preventing PPS and ash from dying by way of mislynch, NK.

[Archetype]

Think of it this way.

There's a 50% chance that one of PPS/ash is scum. Increase or decrease percentages based on personal reads. If one is Town, the other could be scum and if one is scum the other could be Town.
There's a 50% chance that BA/WW are scum. Increase or decrease percentages based on personal reads/interpretation of Reward. If one is Town, the other is Town and if one is scum the other scum.

The second scenario is very high risk - high reward. If one is scum, awesome! We lynch the other the following day for the win and I applaud you for your fakeclaim detection. If one is Town, the other will surely be killed that night. The death of one will surely cause the death of the other. That's not the case if we lynch out of PPS/ash.

PPE: 2

Incorrect. There is nothing preventing PPS and ash from dying by way of mislynch, NK.

Why would scum kill a perfectly good suspect? A player can argue against their lynch - if your claimed partner (whether they be Mason or Mafia) dies, you can't argue your alignment since it's guaranteed to be Town/Scum.

[Hydrad]

Hydrad -- look at the timestamps for the posts in the Council QT.  How much time pass between the very first post and WW's first post?  How much time between BA's first post and WW's first post?

QT unlocks
BA first post 1 hour after unlock
WW first post 6 hours after BA
BA's next post 4 hours after WW.

So for scum to come up with this plan it looks like BA wouldn't have had much say and WW just kinda came up with the idea and hoped BA would go along with it. But i guess I can't assume on assumptions. BA could of easily been around when WW was there and just didn't want to post when WW posted.

[liopoil]

Oh wow, that is a lot of time. For some reason I thought that all happened within an hour.

[Hydrad]

Oh wow, that is a lot of time. For some reason I thought that all happened within an hour.

No sorry maybe I mislead you guys. It felt fast to me but after giving the actual numbers it does feel longer then I first thought

[Hydrad]

Ahh this game is so hard. The only reason I'm doubting WW/BA a bit is because how sure faust is that they are scum and I kinda trust his opinion. If I go on my own opinion I still think its asher/pps or something like that as I know how crafty asher can be as I have read through some old games.

[pingpongsam]

Think of it this way.

There's a 50% chance that one of PPS/ash is scum. Increase or decrease percentages based on personal reads. If one is Town, the other could be scum and if one is scum the other could be Town.
There's a 50% chance that BA/WW are scum. Increase or decrease percentages based on personal reads/interpretation of Reward. If one is Town, the other is Town and if one is scum the other scum.

The second scenario is very high risk - high reward. If one is scum, awesome! We lynch the other the following day for the win and I applaud you for your fakeclaim detection. If one is Town, the other will surely be killed that night. The death of one will surely cause the death of the other. That's not the case if we lynch out of PPS/ash.

PPE: 2

Incorrect. There is nothing preventing PPS and ash from dying by way of mislynch, NK.

Why would scum kill a perfectly good suspect? A player can argue against their lynch - if your claimed partner (whether they be Mason or Mafia) dies, you can't argue your alignment since it's guaranteed to be Town/Scum.

Because WW/BA will not be suspects tomorrow either in this event.

[pingpongsam]

Kill me and ash and tomorrow you'll lynch lio or Faust then scum wins.

[Archetype]

Think of it this way.

There's a 50% chance that one of PPS/ash is scum. Increase or decrease percentages based on personal reads. If one is Town, the other could be scum and if one is scum the other could be Town.
There's a 50% chance that BA/WW are scum. Increase or decrease percentages based on personal reads/interpretation of Reward. If one is Town, the other is Town and if one is scum the other scum.

The second scenario is very high risk - high reward. If one is scum, awesome! We lynch the other the following day for the win and I applaud you for your fakeclaim detection. If one is Town, the other will surely be killed that night. The death of one will surely cause the death of the other. That's not the case if we lynch out of PPS/ash.

PPE: 2

Incorrect. There is nothing preventing PPS and ash from dying by way of mislynch, NK.

Why would scum kill a perfectly good suspect? A player can argue against their lynch - if your claimed partner (whether they be Mason or Mafia) dies, you can't argue your alignment since it's guaranteed to be Town/Scum.

Because WW/BA will not be suspects tomorrow either in this event.

If you flip Town,I'd be willing to reconsider BA/WW.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 4.3

ashersky (1): Witherweaver
pingpongsam (3): liopoil, Archetype, Beyond Awesome
Witherweaver (1): ashersky
no lynch (3): pingpongsam, faust, Hydrad

not voting (0)

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 26 at 11 am forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 28 at 11 am forum time.

Target: 4
Score: 5

[ashersky]

WW's first post claimed Masons?  Is that correct?

BA's first post was inconclusive with claims, right?  That's still 5 hours before WW posts; plenty of time for discussion in the scum QT considering there's no way to confirm when WW actually went to the QT site.  Then there's 4 more hours before BA has to confirm what WW said, so that's plenty of time for him to read instructions/discuss in the scum QT, including faking not knowing what masons are.

This is all conspiracy theory based on the fakeclaim assumption.  I'm showing how it is in fact possible and the "oh it was all so fast it was impossible to plan" defense that WW/BA was using was in fact baloney and scummy.

[Witherweaver]

Those 5 hours were starting at 3AM.  I am NOT up at 3 AM on a work night planning retarded Mafia plans.

[Witherweaver]

Ash you are such bullshit right now

[pingpongsam]

Those 5 hours were starting at 3AM.  I am NOT up at 3 AM on a work night planning retarded Mafia plans.

Sig material right there, lol.

[Witherweaver]

There is zero reasonable conspiracy theory narrative.  No one has come up with anything even remotely close to an explanation on how it makes sense as a prize for killing the Witch.

[Witherweaver]

Wait, I can just /out then I'm mod killed, flip, and BA is confirmed?

[ashersky]

There is zero reasonable conspiracy theory narrative.  No one has come up with anything even remotely close to an explanation on how it makes sense as a prize for killing the Witch.

You are right.  No one has yet to make a compelling argument for your version of Council to be a prize for killing the Witch.

Forcing the scum team into a situation that you are now in, however, is a prize.  You are caught.  Helluva prize.

Unconfirmable masons with two random players in a neighborhood has ZERO use in any sense.  We (town) got nothing, zilch, nada, poop for Council if what you are claiming is true.

[Witherweaver]

Would that be the best thing?

[ashersky]

Wait, I can just /out then I'm mod killed, flip, and BA is confirmed?

Yep.

The only issue is whether he sends it to night or keeps the day going (depending on who he wants to punish).

[ashersky]

Would that be the best thing?

If day continues, yes.  If it goes immediately to night (and you are town), then no.

[Witherweaver]

There is zero reasonable conspiracy theory narrative.  No one has come up with anything even remotely close to an explanation on how it makes sense as a prize for killing the Witch.

You are right.  No one has yet to make a compelling argument for your version of Council to be a prize for killing the Witch.

Forcing the scum team into a situation that you are now in, however, is a prize.  You are caught.  Helluva prize.

Unconfirmable masons with two random players in a neighborhood has ZERO use in any sense.  We (town) got nothing, zilch, nada, poop for Council if what you are claiming is true.

We get two town players having innocent results in each other.  That's comparable to a one-shot cop with an innocent result.

[ashersky]

Would that be the best thing?

If day continues, yes.  If it goes immediately to night (and you are town), then no.

What this means that, if you are town, for there to be "consequences" for gaming the modkill rule, he'd send it to night to take away the advantage town gets from abusing the modkill rule instead of lynching you.

[Witherweaver]

Would that be the best thing?

If day continues, yes.  If it goes immediately to night (and you are town), then no.

Is /outing for strategic purposes cheating?

[ashersky]

There is zero reasonable conspiracy theory narrative.  No one has come up with anything even remotely close to an explanation on how it makes sense as a prize for killing the Witch.

You are right.  No one has yet to make a compelling argument for your version of Council to be a prize for killing the Witch.

Forcing the scum team into a situation that you are now in, however, is a prize.  You are caught.  Helluva prize.

Unconfirmable masons with two random players in a neighborhood has ZERO use in any sense.  We (town) got nothing, zilch, nada, poop for Council if what you are claiming is true.

We get two town players having innocent results in each other.  That's comparable to a one-shot cop with an innocent result.

Well, in this argument, it's comparable to two 1-shot cops having innocent results on each other, since neither are confirmed to the players of the game.  And, well, would you believe two 1-shot cops claiming to have cleared each other on the same night?

[Witherweaver]

Well in that case it would still be equivalent to lynching me. Which you think is a good idea.

[ashersky]

Would that be the best thing?

If day continues, yes.  If it goes immediately to night (and you are town), then no.

Is /outing for strategic purposes cheating?

I am firmly of the belief that it is not, and is a great town strategy.  However, from previous discussions on f.ds, I'm in the minority.

[ashersky]

Well in that case it would still be equivalent to lynching me. Which you think is a good idea.

But the majority doesn't.  And lynches require the majority.  That's the checks and balances part of this game.

[Witherweaver]

In a generic game. No one. In this game, where we get a REWARD, it makes 100% sense.

[ashersky]

In a generic game. No one. In this game, where we get a REWARD, it makes 100% sense.

Put another way, you are arguing (I think), that this is equivalent to at the start of D4:

WW:  "hey guys, as our reward for killing the witch, I was granted 1-shot cop power last night.  I investigated BA, he's town."

BA:  "hey guys, weird, as our reward for killing the witch, I was also granted 1-shot cop power last night.  I investigated WW, he's town.  What a coincidence."

And that makes 100% sense and is belieable and not at all suspect.

[liopoil]

Wait, I can just /out then I'm mod killed, flip, and BA is confirmed?

town breaking the rules should always hurt town. It is up to the mod's discretion what the penalty is, and I assume Jimmmmm would choose something that would hurt town. So don't break the rules if you are town.

[Witherweaver]

In a generic game. No one. In this game, where we get a REWARD, it makes 100% sense.

Put another way, you are arguing (I think), that this is equivalent to at the start of D4:

WW:  "hey guys, as our reward for killing the witch, I was granted 1-shot cop power last night.  I investigated BA, he's town."

BA:  "hey guys, weird, as our reward for killing the witch, I was also granted 1-shot cop power last night.  I investigated WW, he's town.  What a coincidence."

And that makes 100% sense and is belieable and not at all suspect.

Except our targets were chosen for us.  But nice attempt at twisting things again.

[ashersky]

In a generic game. No one. In this game, where we get a REWARD, it makes 100% sense.

Put another way, you are arguing (I think), that this is equivalent to at the start of D4:

WW:  "hey guys, as our reward for killing the witch, I was granted 1-shot cop power last night.  I investigated BA, he's town."

BA:  "hey guys, weird, as our reward for killing the witch, I was also granted 1-shot cop power last night.  I investigated WW, he's town.  What a coincidence."

And that makes 100% sense and is belieable and not at all suspect.

Except our targets were chosen for us.  But nice attempt at twisting things again.

Okay, then:

WW:  "Hey guys, as our reward for killing the witch, I was randomly told the alignment of one player.  BA is town!"

BA:  "Hey guys, wierd, as our reward for killing the witch, I was also randomly told the alignment of one player.  WW is town!  What a coincidence."

Better?  Still ridiculous.

[Witherweaver]

Wait, I can just /out then I'm mod killed, flip, and BA is confirmed?

town breaking the rules should always hurt town. It is up to the mod's discretion what the penalty is, and I assume Jimmmmm would choose something that would hurt town. So don't break the rules if you are town.

Yeah, got it.

[Witherweaver]

In a generic game. No one. In this game, where we get a REWARD, it makes 100% sense.

Put another way, you are arguing (I think), that this is equivalent to at the start of D4:

WW:  "hey guys, as our reward for killing the witch, I was granted 1-shot cop power last night.  I investigated BA, he's town."

BA:  "hey guys, weird, as our reward for killing the witch, I was also granted 1-shot cop power last night.  I investigated WW, he's town.  What a coincidence."

And that makes 100% sense and is belieable and not at all suspect.

Except our targets were chosen for us.  But nice attempt at twisting things again.

Okay, then:

WW:  "Hey guys, as our reward for killing the witch, I was randomly told the alignment of one player.  BA is town!"

BA:  "Hey guys, wierd, as our reward for killing the witch, I was also randomly told the alignment of one player.  WW is town!  What a coincidence."

Better?  Still ridiculous.

It's not at all. Because nobody is countering us with a "real" reward.  And you know this.

[ashersky]

Also, if your argument is that the "reward" from Council in your scenario is that town gets two ICs out of it, why the psuedonyms?  Explain how that makes any sense?  So IF scum is part of the neighborhood, they can't choose to kill one of you?

Except, that's better since it confirms the claim the next day.  As it is, we have two claimants with no confirmation instead of one claimant with confirmation.

Psuedonyms, hiding identities, it's for scum.

[ashersky]

In a generic game. No one. In this game, where we get a REWARD, it makes 100% sense.

Put another way, you are arguing (I think), that this is equivalent to at the start of D4:

WW:  "hey guys, as our reward for killing the witch, I was granted 1-shot cop power last night.  I investigated BA, he's town."

BA:  "hey guys, weird, as our reward for killing the witch, I was also granted 1-shot cop power last night.  I investigated WW, he's town.  What a coincidence."

And that makes 100% sense and is belieable and not at all suspect.

Except our targets were chosen for us.  But nice attempt at twisting things again.

Okay, then:

WW:  "Hey guys, as our reward for killing the witch, I was randomly told the alignment of one player.  BA is town!"

BA:  "Hey guys, wierd, as our reward for killing the witch, I was also randomly told the alignment of one player.  WW is town!  What a coincidence."

Better?  Still ridiculous.

It's not at all. Because nobody is countering us with a "real" reward.  And you know this.

It seems no one knows the real reward, because you and BA screaming up and down that you are town is not a reward given to the town by the mod.

I can at least see some sense in scum being forced into a QT under fake names as being bad for scum.  I do not see how scum suffered at all from what you claim, nor do I see how town has in any way been rewarded.

[Witherweaver]

Also, if your argument is that the "reward" from Council in your scenario is that town gets two ICs out of it, why the psuedonyms?  Explain how that makes any sense?  So IF scum is part of the neighborhood, they can't choose to kill one of you?

Except, that's better since it confirms the claim the next day.  As it is, we have two claimants with no confirmation instead of one claimant with confirmation.

Psuedonyms, hiding identities, it's for scum.

Give any possible explanation how that's a town prize.

[ashersky]

Also, if your argument is that the "reward" from Council in your scenario is that town gets two ICs out of it, why the psuedonyms?  Explain how that makes any sense?  So IF scum is part of the neighborhood, they can't choose to kill one of you?

Except, that's better since it confirms the claim the next day.  As it is, we have two claimants with no confirmation instead of one claimant with confirmation.

Psuedonyms, hiding identities, it's for scum.

Give any possible explanation how that's a town prize.

I just did.  The prize is either "good for town" or "bad for scum."  Scum stuck in a QT under fake names is bad for scum.

What you are claiming is neither good for town or bad for scum.  All of your actions today have been good for scum.

[Witherweaver]

Town has a reward if the town players start acting reasonably.  If you're town (which I think extremely unlikely) then you're actively trying to make our reward hurt us.

[Witherweaver]

Also, if your argument is that the "reward" from Council in your scenario is that town gets two ICs out of it, why the psuedonyms?  Explain how that makes any sense?  So IF scum is part of the neighborhood, they can't choose to kill one of you?

Except, that's better since it confirms the claim the next day.  As it is, we have two claimants with no confirmation instead of one claimant with confirmation.

Psuedonyms, hiding identities, it's for scum.

Give any possible explanation how that's a town prize.

I just did.  The prize is either "good for town" or "bad for scum."  Scum stuck in a QT under fake names is bad for scum.

What you are claiming is neither good for town or bad for scum.  All of your actions today have been good for scum.

Okay.  I don't post in QT.

Next lame explanation

[Witherweaver]

Or I don't use pseudonym.  Or I just post normally.  How is this harmful?

[liopoil]

Also, if your argument is that the "reward" from Council in your scenario is that town gets two ICs out of it, why the psuedonyms?  Explain how that makes any sense?  So IF scum is part of the neighborhood, they can't choose to kill one of you?

Except, that's better since it confirms the claim the next day.  As it is, we have two claimants with no confirmation instead of one claimant with confirmation.

Psuedonyms, hiding identities, it's for scum.

Give any possible explanation how that's a town prize.

I just did.  The prize is either "good for town" or "bad for scum."  Scum stuck in a QT under fake names is bad for scum.

What you are claiming is neither good for town or bad for scum.  All of your actions today have been good for scum.

Scum stuck in a QT under fake names is not bad for scum

What Witherweaver is claiming is good for town.

[ashersky]

Your definition of "acting reasonably" is "believe everything I say."  That's my definition of acting unreasonably.

This is a game of mafia.  Scum lie.  Ergo, if you are scum, you are lying.  I can't just rule that out, and you've done nothing to help rule it out.

I am town.  How about an avatar bet?  If I am scum, you can select any image as my avatar on the forum.  When you see I'm town, I get to set yours to whatever I want.

[ashersky]

Also, if your argument is that the "reward" from Council in your scenario is that town gets two ICs out of it, why the psuedonyms?  Explain how that makes any sense?  So IF scum is part of the neighborhood, they can't choose to kill one of you?

Except, that's better since it confirms the claim the next day.  As it is, we have two claimants with no confirmation instead of one claimant with confirmation.

Psuedonyms, hiding identities, it's for scum.

Give any possible explanation how that's a town prize.

I just did.  The prize is either "good for town" or "bad for scum."  Scum stuck in a QT under fake names is bad for scum.

What you are claiming is neither good for town or bad for scum.  All of your actions today have been good for scum.

Okay.  I don't post in QT.

Next lame explanation

Forced to post.  Next lame attempt to derail.

[Witherweaver]

I post ".".  Or what i said before

[ashersky]

Or I don't use pseudonym.  Or I just post normally.  How is this harmful?

We don't know that the pseudonym was optional.  We don't know anything you say is true.  You don't get that, do you?  WE CANNOT SEE YOUR QT, NOR ANYTHING POSTED THERE.  WE ARE NOT PSYCHIC.  YOU MAY BE LYING.

[ashersky]

I post ".".  Or what i said before

And then the others know you are scum, and it creates ICs by marking a clear separation between psuedonym'ed players and real ones.

[liopoil]

Also, if your argument is that the "reward" from Council in your scenario is that town gets two ICs out of it, why the psuedonyms?  Explain how that makes any sense?  So IF scum is part of the neighborhood, they can't choose to kill one of you?

Except, that's better since it confirms the claim the next day.  As it is, we have two claimants with no confirmation instead of one claimant with confirmation.

Psuedonyms, hiding identities, it's for scum.

Give any possible explanation how that's a town prize.

I just did.  The prize is either "good for town" or "bad for scum."  Scum stuck in a QT under fake names is bad for scum.

What you are claiming is neither good for town or bad for scum.  All of your actions today have been good for scum.

Okay.  I don't post in QT.

Next lame explanation

Forced to post.  Next lame attempt to derail.

"Forced to post"

that's just absolute nonsense.

[Witherweaver]

Or I don't use pseudonym.  Or I just post normally.  How is this harmful?

We don't know that the pseudonym was optional.  We don't know anything you say is true.  You don't get that, do you?  WE CANNOT SEE YOUR QT, NOR ANYTHING POSTED THERE.  WE ARE NOT PSYCHIC.  YOU MAY BE LYING.

Jimmy clarified in the council QT that pseudonym use was only allowable if given permission.  I believe his wording, and BAs immediate admission of pseudonym use optionality in his very first post. Makes this clear.

Next.

[Witherweaver]

I post ".".  Or what i said before

And then the others know you are scum, and it creates ICs by marking a clear separation between psuedonym'ed players and real ones.

Or we have the same retarded argument against those Masons-by-proxy that we're having now.

[ashersky]

How is scum being forced to use a QT nonsense?  If the mod wills it, it happens.  "Post in this QT or X happens."  Easy.

I don't think he likes being called "Jimmy."

I'm saying maybe you had to post as Bob and Alice.

[ashersky]

I post ".".  Or what i said before

And then the others know you are scum, and it creates ICs by marking a clear separation between psuedonym'ed players and real ones.

Or we have the same retarded argument against those Masons-by-proxy that we're having now.

"Retarded" is an offensive term, especially to me, given my family situation.  I'd ask you not to use it.

[Witherweaver]

We already used "lame", but okay.

It's bad and you should feel bad.

[ashersky]

We already used "lame", but okay.

It's bad and you should feel bad.

So to make me feel bad you should be allowed to use offensive terms?  That's civil.

[Witherweaver]

How is scum being forced to use a QT nonsense?  If the mod wills it, it happens.  "Post in this QT or X happens."  Easy.

I don't think he likes being called "Jimmy."

I'm saying maybe you had to post as Bob and Alice.

My phone autocorrects. We didn't have to.  This is evideny from BA first post in council QT.  Verifiable by Hydrad

[Witherweaver]

We already used "lame", but okay.

It's bad and you should feel bad.

So to make me feel bad you should be allowed to use offensive terms?  That's civil.

I was being flippant there.  I thought it self evident that I didn't consider it offensive and. Didn't know you would find it offensive.

[liopoil]

We already used "lame", but okay.

It's bad and you should feel bad.

So to make me feel bad you should be allowed to use offensive terms?  That's civil.

no, he's using the word bad in place of retarded. In that your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

[Witherweaver]

So, sorry.  I'll try not to use it again.

[liopoil]

guys, can we please stop talking about ww and BA? We established so long ago that the chance of us lynching them today is exactly 0. Well, I established that, and I was right. I'm right about pps too. Hydrad should vote for him.

Ash is almost trying to convince me that he is pps' partner.

[Witherweaver]

guys, can we please stop talking about ww and BA? We established so long ago that the chance of us lynching them today is exactly 0. Well, I established that, and I was right. I'm right about pps too. Hydrad should vote for him.

Ash is almost trying to convince me that he is pps' partner.

I'm more convinced of Ash than PPS

[Witherweaver]

We already used "lame", but okay.

It's bad and you should feel bad.

So to make me feel bad you should be allowed to use offensive terms?  That's civil.

no, he's using the word bad in place of retarded. In that your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

This is correct. 

PS where did that come from?  Futurama?

[liopoil]

guys, can we please stop talking about ww and BA? We established so long ago that the chance of us lynching them today is exactly 0. Well, I established that, and I was right. I'm right about pps too. Hydrad should vote for him.

Ash is almost trying to convince me that he is pps' partner.

I'm more convinced of Ash than PPS

Would you be willing to lynch pps over no lynch? I'm not sure that the votes are there for an ash lynch. I'm not sure I would take an ash lynch over no lynch, I'm too worried about archetype.

[Hydrad]

Just wondering in the vote count. Jimmm says when someone is L-1. Could we use this to check if people are loved?

[Jimmmmm]

Remember the civility pledge.

The game provides no suicide mechanic. I will not sub out another player. If I am forced to modkill a player, further action may be taken to ensure that such an action is detrimental to said player's win condition, at my discretion.

[liopoil]

Just wondering in the vote count. Jimmm says when someone is L-1. Could we use this to check if people are loved?

L is probably the same despite loved/hated. Hated people are lynched at L-1. Loved L+1. I'm not sure of this though

[Jimmmmm]

Just wondering in the vote count. Jimmm says when someone is L-1. Could we use this to check if people are loved?

L in this case is simply the stated number of votes required for a lynch.

[Witherweaver]

If probably go for PPS over no Lynch.  But Ash is much scummier.

[pingpongsam]

Well, I got answers about my role power and it is significantly different than I had interpreted it. When I give a man dice he gets a number of d12 dice randomized by the roll of 1d12. Then the next guy who gains dice in any way will be getting all d8 dice regardless if he gets 1 or 50 dice. Then, when the tainted guy rolls he alternates between his d12 and d8 dice until either all the d8s are gone or his supply of dice are exhausted.

[pingpongsam]

So the mechanic is the same but the number of dice and how the d8 alternating works I had gotten all wrong.

[pingpongsam]

So Vote: ashersky ?

[pingpongsam]

Further clarification. The dice I directly give are d8s as are the ones that get gained elsewise.

[pingpongsam]

So basically I flood the game with d8s both directly and indirectly.

[pingpongsam]

More bad news. The random number of d8s I directly give are an amount unknown to me.

[Witherweaver]

Well dude, if you're making this up, then I'm thoroughly impressed.

[pingpongsam]

Finally, the whole weird random person thing is also apparently wrong. Apparently my target gets the 1d12 number of d8s and then the next person to receive dice, from me, in any manner at all will get d8s instead of d12s.

[pingpongsam]

I am impressed I got it so thoroughly wrong. I will be curious to hear if, in the end, other people can see how I interpreted my role so wrong. All this said, I still feel it was appropriate to abstain from handing out d8s.

[pingpongsam]

I bet Jimmmmm has been shaking his head all this time.

[Witherweaver]

So you're really telling me it never occurred to you to ask for clarity on most_confusing_mafia_role_ever before?

And I don't get why the second part has to be there.. you're already giving out d8s with your ability.. why the caveat that if you give out dice again in any other way they're d8's?  And isn't that only triggerable beyond your regular ability with the monster prize?

[Witherweaver]

I bet Jimmmmm has been shaking his head all this time.

I bet Jimmmm has been going through a lot of things throughout this entire game.  I imagine lots of laughter mixed with facepalms.

[pingpongsam]

So you're really telling me it never occurred to you to ask for clarity on most_confusing_mafia_role_ever before?

And I don't get why the second part has to be there.. you're already giving out d8s with your ability.. why the caveat that if you give out dice again in any other way they're d8's?  And isn't that only triggerable beyond your regular ability with the monster prize?

Yeah, I read the role and decided this won't get used and really never thought much more about it till it became apparent I would have to use it to confirm I wasn't some dice destroyer. The 2nd bit must just be the cream on top for having used the role. Say I were the one to have distributed the reward instead of Faust, those would have all been d8s. I guess, now I think about it, it means if someone stole dice from me they would have gotten d8s too.

[Beyond Awesome]

So you're really telling me it never occurred to you to ask for clarity on most_confusing_mafia_role_ever before?

And I don't get why the second part has to be there.. you're already giving out d8s with your ability.. why the caveat that if you give out dice again in any other way they're d8's?  And isn't that only triggerable beyond your regular ability with the monster prize?

Yeah, I read the role and decided this won't get used and really never thought much more about it till it became apparent I would have to use it to confirm I wasn't some dice destroyer. The 2nd bit must just be the cream on top for having used the role. Say I were the one to have distributed the reward instead of Faust, those would have all been d8s. I guess, now I think about it, it means if someone stole dice from me they would have gotten d8s too.

Dude, why would they get d8's from stealing from you? You rolled a 9 on day 3. Thus, the dice in your own personal supply go up to at least 1d9.

[Hydrad]

So you're really telling me it never occurred to you to ask for clarity on most_confusing_mafia_role_ever before?

And I don't get why the second part has to be there.. you're already giving out d8s with your ability.. why the caveat that if you give out dice again in any other way they're d8's?  And isn't that only triggerable beyond your regular ability with the monster prize?

Yeah, I read the role and decided this won't get used and really never thought much more about it till it became apparent I would have to use it to confirm I wasn't some dice destroyer. The 2nd bit must just be the cream on top for having used the role. Say I were the one to have distributed the reward instead of Faust, those would have all been d8s. I guess, now I think about it, it means if someone stole dice from me they would have gotten d8s too.

Dude, why would they get d8's from stealing from you? You rolled a 9 on day 3. Thus, the dice in your own personal supply go up to at least 1d9.

I don't think he has d8's but if someone took from him they would turn into d8's

[Beyond Awesome]

I love how PPS claim becomes more and more convoluted and fake sounding.

The only thing adding any legitimacy is him claiming the revised version right after Jimmm steps in and posts on this board.  Then again, PPS could be using that as an excuse to further fakeify his super fake sounding fake claim of fakeness.

[Jimmmmm]

The Ogre has attacked Hydrad!
Score: 5

[faust]

If probably go for PPS over no Lynch.  But Ash is much scummier.
[/quote

"I'd probably do anything to get that last mislynch in."

[faust]

I love how PPS claim becomes more and more convoluted and fake sounding.

The only thing adding any legitimacy is him claiming the revised version right after Jimmm steps in and posts on this board.  Then again, PPS could be using that as an excuse to further fakeify his super fake sounding fake claim of fakeness.

Dude, you seriously believe PPS is scum still? That was a series of super townie posts, and anyone who still thinks he's scum (liopoil?) should feel bad.

[faust]

lio, I demand you explain why PPS is still scummy after this, or stop your witch hunt!

[pingpongsam]

So you're really telling me it never occurred to you to ask for clarity on most_confusing_mafia_role_ever before?

And I don't get why the second part has to be there.. you're already giving out d8s with your ability.. why the caveat that if you give out dice again in any other way they're d8's?  And isn't that only triggerable beyond your regular ability with the monster prize?

Yeah, I read the role and decided this won't get used and really never thought much more about it till it became apparent I would have to use it to confirm I wasn't some dice destroyer. The 2nd bit must just be the cream on top for having used the role. Say I were the one to have distributed the reward instead of Faust, those would have all been d8s. I guess, now I think about it, it means if someone stole dice from me they would have gotten d8s too.

Dude, why would they get d8's from stealing from you? You rolled a 9 on day 3. Thus, the dice in your own personal supply go up to at least 1d9.

They won't until I target someone which I have yet to do. Once I target someone they will receive d8s and then the next person to gain dice from me in any way will also get d8s. Since stealing from me is essentially gaining then the stolen dice become d8s on the way out the door. My power in no way increases my own supply. One clarification I did was when I ran out dice I asked if I could target myself and the answer was no.

[Witherweaver]

If probably go for PPS over no Lynch.  But Ash is much scummier.
[/quote

"I'd probably do anything to get that last mislynch in."

Oh he's a mislynch?  Thanks, I missed the post where his alignment was revealed.  Thank god you're here.

[liopoil]

I don't understand you faust, this is nothing but scummy! How in the world you think this clears him is beyond me.

[Witherweaver]

I love how PPS claim becomes more and more convoluted and fake sounding.

The only thing adding any legitimacy is him claiming the revised version right after Jimmm steps in and posts on this board.  Then again, PPS could be using that as an excuse to further fakeify his super fake sounding fake claim of fakeness.

I'm having trouble imagining him making all this up.  This tends not to be how fake claims go.

[liopoil]

Making this all up would be so. freaking. easy. And now it is super similar to my role - we both give 1d12 with a penalty.

[Witherweaver]

Making this all up would be so. freaking. easy. And now it is super similar to my role - we both give 1d12 with a penalty.

He doesn't give d12s

[Witherweaver]

Of course, now he has a reason to never use his power.

[liopoil]

Well, I got answers about my role power and it is significantly different than I had interpreted it. When I give a man dice he gets a number of d12 dice randomized by the roll of 1d12. Then the next guy who gains dice in any way will be getting all d8 dice regardless if he gets 1 or 50 dice. Then, when the tainted guy rolls he alternates between his d12 and d8 dice until either all the d8s are gone or his supply of dice are exhausted.

This makes it sound like he gives d12s.... 1d12 of them. Has he changed his story yet again?

[pingpongsam]

Well, I got answers about my role power and it is significantly different than I had interpreted it. When I give a man dice he gets a number of d12 dice randomized by the roll of 1d12. Then the next guy who gains dice in any way will be getting all d8 dice regardless if he gets 1 or 50 dice. Then, when the tainted guy rolls he alternates between his d12 and d8 dice until either all the d8s are gone or his supply of dice are exhausted.

This makes it sound like he gives d12s.... 1d12 of them. Has he changed his story yet again?

See that was my mistake from the beginning. 1d12 means the result of rolling a d12. I will give my target x number of d8s where x is the result of rolling an imaginary d12 die. So my target can receive anywhere between 1 and 12 d8s.

It might be possible you made the same error parsing your role?

[liopoil]

Well, I got answers about my role power and it is significantly different than I had interpreted it. When I give a man dice he gets a number of d12 dice randomized by the roll of 1d12. Then the next guy who gains dice in any way will be getting all d8 dice regardless if he gets 1 or 50 dice. Then, when the tainted guy rolls he alternates between his d12 and d8 dice until either all the d8s are gone or his supply of dice are exhausted.

This makes it sound like he gives d12s.... 1d12 of them. Has he changed his story yet again?

See that was my mistake from the beginning. 1d12 means the result of rolling a d12. I will give my target x number of d8s where x is the result of rolling an imaginary d12 die. So my target can receive anywhere between 1 and 12 d8s.

It might be possible you made the same error parsing your role?

No, that's not possible, because I asked Jimmmmm plenty of questions at the start of the game, and also read the miscellaneous section of the second post.

I've bolded in the above quote where you say that you give d12s, and now you are saying d8.

[Witherweaver]

But who pretends to be this confused on a made up role?

[Witherweaver]

Actually his role isn't so bad.  Having d8s is better than having no dice. 

[Witherweaver]

Are you sure about the secondary part?

I think you give out 1d12 number of d8's.  Whomever receives these d8's has their rolls alternate between d12s and d8s.  All dice received from you are d8's, whether they are from this ability or not.

What's your role name?

[pingpongsam]

Well, I got answers about my role power and it is significantly different than I had interpreted it. When I give a man dice he gets a number of d12 dice randomized by the roll of 1d12. Then the next guy who gains dice in any way will be getting all d8 dice regardless if he gets 1 or 50 dice. Then, when the tainted guy rolls he alternates between his d12 and d8 dice until either all the d8s are gone or his supply of dice are exhausted.

This makes it sound like he gives d12s.... 1d12 of them. Has he changed his story yet again?

See that was my mistake from the beginning. 1d12 means the result of rolling a d12. I will give my target x number of d8s where x is the result of rolling an imaginary d12 die. So my target can receive anywhere between 1 and 12 d8s.

It might be possible you made the same error parsing your role?

No, that's not possible, because I asked Jimmmmm plenty of questions at the start of the game, and also read the miscellaneous section of the second post.

I've bolded in the above quote where you say that you give d12s, and now you are saying d8.

Yeah, I furhter modified it as I got further clarification, I even said as such, I prepended the statement with "more bad news".

[pingpongsam]

Are you sure about the secondary part?

I think you give out 1d12 number of d8's.  Whomever receives these d8's has their rolls alternate between d12s and d8s.  All dice received from you are d8's, whether they are from this ability or not.

What's your role name?

My role name is The Swindler. And I think you may be correct, that when anyone gets dice from me, whether I've used my power through targeting or not, they will get d8s. I can clarify this with Jimmmmm but this really adds up when I read the description now. I get one sentence about how targeting works and the next sentence basically says whenever someone gets dice from in any way they are d8 dice. I had assumed the one naturally followed the other but I think you may be right that the 2nd sentence stands apart from the first.

[faust]

I don't understand you faust, this is nothing but scummy! How in the world you think this clears him is beyond me.

Goddammit, lio.

WHERE IS THE CASE ON PPS?

If PPS does something weird, it's scummy. If PPS does something townie, it's a grab for towncred. In your mind, there is no chance that you will ever view anything PPS does as townie. This is the strongest case of confirmation bias I've seen in a long time.

[Hydrad]

Ok heres an idea. what if tonight PPS targets me with his abilities. there is almost no way scum will kill me since the have faust with the possible cop coming. And even if I get targeted by the dice destroyer its PPS's 1d12 vs the possible 1d6. odds are he will give me more dice.

also I would really like more dice...

[Witherweaver]

Are you sure about the secondary part?

I think you give out 1d12 number of d8's.  Whomever receives these d8's has their rolls alternate between d12s and d8s.  All dice received from you are d8's, whether they are from this ability or not.

What's your role name?

My role name is The Swindler. And I think you may be correct, that when anyone gets dice from me, whether I've used my power through targeting or not, they will get d8s. I can clarify this with Jimmmmm but this really adds up when I read the description now. I get one sentence about how targeting works and the next sentence basically says whenever someone gets dice from in any way they are d8 dice. I had assumed the one naturally followed the other but I think you may be right that the 2nd sentence stands apart from the first.

Well, The Swindler makes some sense, as you're giving out dice but they're "duds". 

This isn't so unbelievable.  I'm Saboteur, Yuma was Thief, PPS is a Swindler.  And he divulged the flavor name back on day 1 long before anyone else claimed. 

Would a role called Swindler destroy a die supply?  Probably not.  Saboteur is actually a better name for that, but my sabotaging is sabotaging individual rolls, not the supply of dice.

Anyway, PPS is probably not the scum player that destroys dice. (He could be the other one.)  Which narrows it down to Faust or Ash.

[Witherweaver]

Ok heres an idea. what if tonight PPS targets me with his abilities. there is almost no way scum will kill me since the have faust with the possible cop coming. And even if I get targeted by the dice destroyer its PPS's 1d12 vs the possible 1d6. odds are he will give me more dice.

also I would really like more dice...

Well, if we decide PPS's target publicly here, that's not so great. 

[Hydrad]

Ok heres an idea. what if tonight PPS targets me with his abilities. there is almost no way scum will kill me since the have faust with the possible cop coming. And even if I get targeted by the dice destroyer its PPS's 1d12 vs the possible 1d6. odds are he will give me more dice.

also I would really like more dice...

Well, if we decide PPS's target publicly here, that's not so great.

Why not. otherwise he can back out and say he targetted whoever died. or if he chooses asher/lio lets say they might be a scum partner that would lie about gaining dice.

[Hydrad]

Also I see the orge attacked finally. I'm pretty sure it didn't work since I played from supply. I don't see anything in my QT that changed so I think we are safe.

[Witherweaver]

Ok heres an idea. what if tonight PPS targets me with his abilities. there is almost no way scum will kill me since the have faust with the possible cop coming. And even if I get targeted by the dice destroyer its PPS's 1d12 vs the possible 1d6. odds are he will give me more dice.

also I would really like more dice...

Well, if we decide PPS's target publicly here, that's not so great.

Why not. otherwise he can back out and say he targetted whoever died. or if he chooses asher/lio lets say they might be a scum partner that would lie about gaining dice.

Because if scum knows what we're going to do they can plan around it.  And if PPS is town, he would be an excellent person to set up for a mislynch tomorrow if anything comes out not verified.

[Hydrad]

Because if scum knows what we're going to do they can plan around it.  And if PPS is town, he would be an excellent person to set up for a mislynch tomorrow if anything comes out not verified.

Well yes they can plan around it but I don't see what they can do. If they kill me faust gets a free cop which is much stronger so they can't do that. If they steal from me PPS's supposed ability will give me more dice then lost most of the time. From what we know the best they can hope for is to steal more then I gain. Which isn't even that useful as I will only have 1d8's when they would want to take dice away from people with 1d12's. overall I think scum would be losing to much to try to stop PPS's claim which the odds arn't even for them to succeed

[Witherweaver]

Because if scum knows what we're going to do they can plan around it.  And if PPS is town, he would be an excellent person to set up for a mislynch tomorrow if anything comes out not verified.

Well yes they can plan around it but I don't see what they can do. If they kill me faust gets a free cop which is much stronger so they can't do that. If they steal from me PPS's supposed ability will give me more dice then lost most of the time. From what we know the best they can hope for is to steal more then I gain. Which isn't even that useful as I will only have 1d8's when they would want to take dice away from people with 1d12's. overall I think scum would be losing to much to try to stop PPS's claim which the odds arn't even for them to succeed

Well, they can leave Faust alive and argue that he's scum.  Faust himself could be scum.  Or some other random scenario I haven't thought of. 

Generally speaking, if you have a public plan, scum can manipulate it because they have all the information we do, and more.

[Witherweaver]

Maybe it's okay here, I don't know.  Though if I'm town!PPS my thing would be to figure out who to target to best get my role verified.

[pingpongsam]

I will reveal my target tomorrow assuming I survive that far.

[Hydrad]

my biggest issue with PPS revealing it after is that if he is scum he can just have his partner lie about gaining dice.

[Beyond Awesome]

I'm not sure what to think of PPS claim. I suppose it does make sense though for a role to exist where you give out a bunch of d8's. The complexity of his role makes me think  I just wish that PPS had asked for clarification on his role much earlier and not now at this stage of the game.

[Beyond Awesome]

If PPS really is not making up his claim which everyone seems convinced he is not. Then, that leaves Ash as the only plausible candidate as the dice destroyer.

[Hydrad]

If PPS really is not making up his claim which everyone seems convinced he is not. Then, that leaves Ash as the only plausible candidate as the dice destroyer.

Ya I agree and still think ash is the dice destroyer.

[faust]

If PPS really is not making up his claim which everyone seems convinced he is not. Then, that leaves Ash as the only plausible candidate as the dice destroyer.

I know two other plausible candidates.

[Hydrad]

If PPS really is not making up his claim which everyone seems convinced he is not. Then, that leaves Ash as the only plausible candidate as the dice destroyer.

I know two other plausible candidates.

Oh man this game is amazing. To be fair i think BA is telling the truth about his role I feel like if BA/WW is the scum team it will be WW with the dice destroyer.

[faust]

If PPS really is not making up his claim which everyone seems convinced he is not. Then, that leaves Ash as the only plausible candidate as the dice destroyer.

I know two other plausible candidates.

Oh man this game is amazing. To be fair i think BA is telling the truth about his role I feel like if BA/WW is the scum team it will be WW with the dice destroyer.

Yeah, I agree. WW is definitely the mastermind here, he also probably figured out the Masons thing. Makes sense that he would have the complicated fakeclaim.

[Witherweaver]

If PPS really is not making up his claim which everyone seems convinced he is not. Then, that leaves Ash as the only plausible candidate as the dice destroyer.

I know two other plausible candidates.

Oh man this game is amazing. To be fair i think BA is telling the truth about his role I feel like if BA/WW is the scum team it will be WW with the dice destroyer.

Yeah, I agree. WW is definitely the mastermind here, he also probably figured out the Masons thing. Makes sense that he would have the complicated fakeclaim.

I'm almost flattered.

I believe Faust's role is that he has a 1d2 to roll for each other player in the game.  If he gets a "1", he has to argue that player is town, and if he gets a "2", he has to argue that player is scum.  The penalty if he doesn't follow is to get mod-killed.  This is the only explanation I can come up with on how my role is a complicated scummy fake claim and PPS's role, which required four chapter, a flow chart, a spreadsheet, and a hash function to describe is "yeah seems right".

[Beyond Awesome]

If PPS really is not making up his claim which everyone seems convinced he is not. Then, that leaves Ash as the only plausible candidate as the dice destroyer.

Actually, I revise my statement. I am still rereading. I'm sorry. I know I am moving at a snail pace with my promised reread. I am only reading chunks at a time. But, one thing I am noticing is that Ash has not pushed for any mislynches or any lynches much for that matter. I actually think Ash is trying to figure things out.

So, either PPS is the dice destroyer. Or, Faust is. I have a strong town read on Faust though. I think he is just confused by everything or has tunnel vision and has convinced himself that WW and I are the scum team and thus won't listen to any other perspective or argument.

[Witherweaver]

Also, I just thought of something.  We all had to give Jimmmm a flavor weapon to use.  BA's role is something like Arms Inspector.. is the flavor involved in the result at all? 

Though I wonder what the flavor weapons were for.. I had assumed it would be used in flavor text, like "WW strikes the Troll with his +5 attackerthinger of attackingness" or whatever, but I haven't seen any yet.

[Witherweaver]

If PPS really is not making up his claim which everyone seems convinced he is not. Then, that leaves Ash as the only plausible candidate as the dice destroyer.

Actually, I revise my statement. I am still rereading. I'm sorry. I know I am moving at a snail pace with my promised reread. I am only reading chunks at a time. But, one thing I am noticing is that Ash has not pushed for any mislynches or any lynches much for that matter. I actually think Ash is trying to figure things out.

So, either PPS is the dice destroyer. Or, Faust is. I have a strong town read on Faust though. I think he is just confused by everything or has tunnel vision and has convinced himself that WW and I are the scum team and thus won't listen to any other perspective or argument.

Ash seems to be trying to mislynch us pretty hard. 

[Beyond Awesome]

If PPS really is not making up his claim which everyone seems convinced he is not. Then, that leaves Ash as the only plausible candidate as the dice destroyer.

Actually, I revise my statement. I am still rereading. I'm sorry. I know I am moving at a snail pace with my promised reread. I am only reading chunks at a time. But, one thing I am noticing is that Ash has not pushed for any mislynches or any lynches much for that matter. I actually think Ash is trying to figure things out.

So, either PPS is the dice destroyer. Or, Faust is. I have a strong town read on Faust though. I think he is just confused by everything or has tunnel vision and has convinced himself that WW and I are the scum team and thus won't listen to any other perspective or argument.

Ash seems to be trying to mislynch us pretty hard.

Okay, but I don't see him really pushing for any lynches earlier though on the other days.

[Witherweaver]

The only thing that sticks out in my memory was him jumping on you for your claim.

[Beyond Awesome]

The only thing that sticks out in my memory was him jumping on you for your claim.

True. He has been saying that he has found my claim fake sounding since I claimed it and even after other roles were revealed that tie into my claim. I have no idea why he still says my claim sounds so fake now at this point in the game though.

[Beyond Awesome]

You know Faust, I want to ask you a question. Why would WW and I be so engaged this game and this day especially if we were scum. Ash is rarely chiming in. lio not much as well. Same for Arch. PPS chimes in now and then. More so than those three players. He is interacting more which actually does give him more town points which was not something I had thought much of until I went to write this post.

So, just going by interaction it is primarily me, WW, Hydrad, you, and to an extent PPS posting.

Not posting much
Arch
Ash
lio

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, so I am now D3 of my reread. Yah, I am going that slow guys, but I believe I have found our most important piece of info.

On N3, the Mentalist visits Ash and XP is dead the next day and now Ash claims he has control over who he sends the Mentalist. Prior the Mentalist visited PPS. Now, Box died the day before because there were no good kill targets thanks to towns reward that night.

But, anyway, the Mentalist is the one that can cop players, right?

So, I am thinking that for sure PPS or Ash has to be scum now because of XPs death. Why else would XP die unless scum say him as a real threat?

I mean, this has to be the most damming thing against both players. Okay, so that leaves us in the 50/50 position but for sure one is scum.

[faust]

So, since WW responded to my case, I will respond to this as well:

Why you should believe we're telling the truth:

(1) Masons were a reward from killing the Witch.  The reward was Council.  This is a town reward, it has to benefit town in some way that doesn't just break the game.  The award is to select two town members to be Masons and put them in a Neighborhood with two other players.  Our rewards before this point were:

(i) A chance to protect against a night kill.
(ii) A supply of dice to hand out.

Each reward involved the entire set of living players, scum and town.  In both cases, scum was involved in the selection process.  In the second one, they could vote for themselves for the person to hand out dice.  However, not a very exploitable situation, as they still have to hand out dice somewhere and if a scum did get selected and gave all the dice to his team, it would probably be trackable.  And regardless, our entire die hoard goes up, which is generally good.

The next reward is for killing another monster, so it should be a Town benefit, but not overpowered.  So, here are two scenarios for our next reward:

(iiia) [The truth, with some stipulation of details on my part] Two Town players are selected to be Masons and join a neighborhood with two other Neighbors (selected randomly from all other live players).  They get a QT that night which will be open on the remaining nights.  The Masons are given pseudonyms by the mod that they may use (but don't have to).  Being explicitly told that the other Neighbors were selected from all other remaining players meant they could be scum, so pseudonyms would protect us from being targeted that night.

BUt how does this Neighborhood benefit town? You argue yourself that a reward that gives no benefit makes no sense. Masons, fine, that's a reward. But how is the council itself a reward?

(iiib) [The ''conspiracy theory''] The scum team is forced into a QT.  (Would this be different if three scum or one scum were left alive?  How would this work at a general prize?  No clue.) The scum team has to post in the QT and is given a pseudonyms that they can use.  The scum team then decides to capitalize and claim they were made Masons.

(iiib') [A different version] Four players are selected at random, and two at random to get to use pseudonyms, or something like that.

It should be obvious that (iiib) and (iiib'), or the other incarnations of these, are silly.  If I'm scum, I'm told I have to post in the QT, I just post "." and never go back again.  Okay this might be a little dangerous because then the two Neighbors can figure out they should be town since the others aren't posting.  I can then, of course, just kill one of them.  Then there's only one person saying what went on in the QT, and it's completely useless.  Or I use the opportunity to spread misinformation.  Or I simply post in there as I normally would, and use the opportunity to get more insight on what town members are thinking.

In what way does this possibly benefit the town?  How is this a prize?

And here's where you're fundamentally wrong. Suppose that, in (iiib), scum doesn't post in the QT and nobody claims Alice or Bob the next morning. Then we know that Alice and Bob must be the scum. Which consequently means that neither Ichi nor Hydrad can be scum. So if Alice and Bob don't claim, they create two ICs. If they claim, well, that a good spot to start looking for scum. So do you really think the reward in this case gives no benefit? I think this makes perfect sense.

The scenario (iiib') makes even less sense, because it has nothing to do with alignment.

Lastly, why would we be given pseudonyms at all?  What's your motivation as mod!Jimmmmm to come up with that?

The pseudonyms are obviously for scum. Just a Neighborhood is little reward at all. I think you were also forced to use these pseudonyms.

(2) BA and myself did not have the opportunity to come up with this ''plot''.  Even if, somehow, you can possibly believe that two scum players would be given pseudonyms to join in a Neighborhood as a town prize, it does not make sense with the way things went down here.

If I had seen this as an opportunity to come up with a clever ploy, we would have had to talk about this in scum QT.  The Council QT opens up at 2:30 AM.  BA starts posting on his own at 3:30 AM.  I have a 9-5 job; I'm asleep during this time.  Why would scum!BA start posting, unprompted, on his own, in a QT that he shares with town, that he knows was awarded to Town as a Town prize, right off the bat with no plan or consideration on what it means for us and what's going on?  Any scum player would wait and think things through and figure everything out---certainly stop to think and discuss with his partner about the pseudonym situation---not just start posting.  Scum has to be careful and think things through, not just act and post randomly.

Give me a possible reasonable explanation for scum!BA behaving like this.

Easy. first and foremost, even under pseudonym, BA wants to appear townie. Not posting is not townie. Plus, the pseudonym protects him, so why not post and try to manipulate?

Moreover, I posted as soon as I could as well, which was the next morning while I was at work. My first post was a bit before 10 AM.  My very first post was to admit that BA and I (under pseudonyms) were confirmed town to each other.  Hydrad and I have back-and-forths for a bit, and BA is gone throughout all of this, until the afternoon. I'm gone while BA is posting and BA is gone while I'm posting.

 

See, here's where I am suspicious. Why does it take you to claim the Masons? That BA doesn't claim Masons is suspicious, because in a BA/WW scumteam, I expect you, WW, to plan such fakeclaims, since you're the experienced one.

I'm certainly not going to jump in the Council QT and propose that my scum partner and I were confirmed town to each other without first discussing it with him.  Certainly Faust and Ash should realize this.  I talk through all kinds of possible scenarios, even ones that don't really matter or are very unlikely, in the scum QT.  Even the one case where I "threw an audible" in Innovation as Mafia, I had talked about the possibility with Faust on the previous night, and in that situation I felt I was cornered and I had to.  It's completely absurd that I'm going to throw a wild curveball and just "hope" BA (who would be first-time scum in this scenario) would just pick up and play along correctly.

Of course as scum you want to claim quickly, in order to be able to make this exact argument. But for all we know, you had the chance to inform BA first. That doesn't necessarily take, like, multiple hours.

The other case, where BA came up with this himself, is not even in the same plane of existence as something possible.  The confusion over the Mason role and what he was told by Jimmm is just too hard to fake.  He even asked questions to and got confirmation from Jimmmm.

And his confusion is also suspicions, because to me it says you didn't explain it to him properly. If he really had a message from Jimmmmm, there would be no need to be confused.

(3) This entire thing would be completely unnecessary as scum.   We could have just not claimed anything and not drawn attention to ourselves.  The QT could be completely ignored (our identities not having been revealed) or we could post there inconspicuously.  There's no scenario here where we had to take this gambit.

Yes, you did, see the explanation above. Plus, if we are already at MyLo, this is a good way to get that one last mislynch.

Also, especially to Faust who was so adamant about lynching the low rollers (remember Ichi?), BA and myself have played three 12's between us so far.  At some point you'd think we'd store some of those and use them for scum purposes instead of town.  Maybe one scum playing high rolls for town points makes sense, but both of them?

Lynching a low roller did exactly what we wanted to: Forced scum into contributing. I mean, if you make that sort of argument, you'd have to show me how the plays of the players you suspect were scummier than yours.

PPE: 9

[faust]

So, I am thinking that for sure PPS or Ash has to be scum now because of XPs death. Why else would XP die unless scum say him as a real threat?

XP died because he was pretty much conf!town.

[faust]

This is what I want peope to consider especially:

(iiib) [The ''conspiracy theory''] The scum team is forced into a QT.  (Would this be different if three scum or one scum were left alive?  How would this work at a general prize?  No clue.) The scum team has to post in the QT and is given a pseudonyms that they can use.  The scum team then decides to capitalize and claim they were made Masons.

(iiib') [A different version] Four players are selected at random, and two at random to get to use pseudonyms, or something like that.

It should be obvious that (iiib) and (iiib'), or the other incarnations of these, are silly.  If I'm scum, I'm told I have to post in the QT, I just post "." and never go back again.  Okay this might be a little dangerous because then the two Neighbors can figure out they should be town since the others aren't posting.  I can then, of course, just kill one of them.  Then there's only one person saying what went on in the QT, and it's completely useless.  Or I use the opportunity to spread misinformation.  Or I simply post in there as I normally would, and use the opportunity to get more insight on what town members are thinking.

In what way does this possibly benefit the town?  How is this a prize?

And here's where you're fundamentally wrong. Suppose that, in (iiib), scum doesn't post in the QT and nobody claims Alice or Bob the next morning. Then we know that Alice and Bob must be the scum. Which consequently means that neither Ichi nor Hydrad can be scum. So if Alice and Bob don't claim, they create two ICs. If they claim, well, that a good spot to start looking for scum. So do you really think the reward in this case gives no benefit? I think this makes perfect sense.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, I am thinking that for sure PPS or Ash has to be scum now because of XPs death. Why else would XP die unless scum say him as a real threat?

XP died because he was pretty much conf!town.

Didn't the Mentalist visit you as well? I forgot about that. So, the Mentalist visited you, Ash, and PPS.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, I am thinking that for sure PPS or Ash has to be scum now because of XPs death. Why else would XP die unless scum say him as a real threat?

XP died because he was pretty much conf!town.

Also, XP was confirmed town to who the Mentalist visited. While I was fairly certain he was town, I was not fully convinced.

[Beyond Awesome]

Plus, if we are already at MyLo, this is a good way to get that one last mislynch.

I will let that post of yours speak for itself.

[faust]

Plus, if we are already at MyLo, this is a good way to get that one last mislynch.

I will let that post of yours speak for itself.

No. Please. Comment.

[Beyond Awesome]

Never mind. I read that post as you saying that you were happy with allowing a mislynch to happen. My bad.

[Hydrad]

Plus, if we are already at MyLo, this is a good way to get that one last mislynch.

I will let that post of yours speak for itself.

No. Please. Comment.

I think hes implying that you might be pushing a mislynch? (but I'm not to sure but its what I felt he meant)

[ashersky]

Everyone attacking PPS for confusion about his role / not asking jimmmmm for clarification ought to be ashamed of themselves for not grilling BA the same way for his "confusion" about what a Mason was.

A Mason is a normal role, at least, but he claims he made an incorrect assumption and never thought to ask for clarification.

[Hydrad]

actually I already regret my last post because if thats not what he meant I just made a weird situation that wasn't needed. please ignore my last post.

[liopoil]

You know Faust, I want to ask you a question. Why would WW and I be so engaged this game and this day especially if we were scum. Ash is rarely chiming in. lio not much as well. Same for Arch. PPS chimes in now and then. More so than those three players. He is interacting more which actually does give him more town points which was not something I had thought much of until I went to write this post.

So, just going by interaction it is primarily me, WW, Hydrad, you, and to an extent PPS posting.

Not posting much
Arch
Ash
lio

Come on, this is possibly the most active game in f.ds history. Both ash and I have well over 200 posts, IIRC. Arch is the only one you might say isn't as engaged.

[Beyond Awesome]

Everyone attacking PPS for confusion about his role / not asking jimmmmm for clarification ought to be ashamed of themselves for not grilling BA the same way for his "confusion" about what a Mason was.

A Mason is a normal role, at least, but he claims he made an incorrect assumption and never thought to ask for clarification.

Well, it never said in my WT I was a Mason. It said your fellow Mason WW, except in green, who is town-aligned. I thought Mason was WWs role.

[ashersky]

Also, for the record, PPS has the second scummiest sounding claim.

His is only slightly less fake based on the incredible amount of bumbling he's done with it.  If he's lying, worst attempt at a fake claim ever.

[ashersky]

Everyone attacking PPS for confusion about his role / not asking jimmmmm for clarification ought to be ashamed of themselves for not grilling BA the same way for his "confusion" about what a Mason was.

A Mason is a normal role, at least, but he claims he made an incorrect assumption and never thought to ask for clarification.

Well, it never said in my WT I was a Mason. It said your fellow Mason WW, except in green, who is town-aligned. I thought Mason was WWs role.

Dude...you FELLOW mason.  Like when a US President says "my fellow Americans" you think he's not an American?

[Beyond Awesome]

Sorry, I meant to say QT. Not WT.

PPE: 2

[Beyond Awesome]

Everyone attacking PPS for confusion about his role / not asking jimmmmm for clarification ought to be ashamed of themselves for not grilling BA the same way for his "confusion" about what a Mason was.

A Mason is a normal role, at least, but he claims he made an incorrect assumption and never thought to ask for clarification.

Well, it never said in my WT I was a Mason. It said your fellow Mason WW, except in green, who is town-aligned. I thought Mason was WWs role.

Dude...you FELLOW mason.  Like when a US President says "my fellow Americans" you think he's not an American?

yah, but it never said I was a Mason. I thought it was a freaking role.

[Beyond Awesome]

Like I thought I learned that WW was town-aligned and the name of his role was Mason.

[ashersky]

If it said he was your FELLOW mason, that means you are also a Mason.  Otherwise, he can't be your FELLOW Mason, he is just a/the mason.

[Beyond Awesome]

If it said he was your FELLOW mason, that means you are also a Mason.  Otherwise, he can't be your FELLOW Mason, he is just a/the mason.

That wasn't how I interpreted my message in my QT.

[Witherweaver]

BUt how does this Neighborhood benefit town? You argue yourself that a reward that gives no benefit makes no sense. Masons, fine, that's a reward. But how is the council itself a reward?

Masons is part of the Neighborhood.  I don't see the issue here.  It actually is a benefit, because with other players in the neighborhood, they can validate what BA and I claim to provide evidence that we're not lying.  Makes our claim more believable so we can be accepted as more-likely Town to the rest of the Town players.

And here's where you're fundamentally wrong. Suppose that, in (iiib), scum doesn't post in the QT and nobody claims Alice or Bob the next morning. Then we know that Alice and Bob must be the scum. Which consequently means that neither Ichi nor Hydrad can be scum. So if Alice and Bob don't claim, they create two ICs. If they claim, well, that a good spot to start looking for scum. So do you really think the reward in this case gives no benefit? I think this makes perfect sense.

But they don't to use Alice and Bob at all.  And the optionality of the pseudonyms can be verified in the Council QT.

The pseudonyms are obviously for scum. Just a Neighborhood is little reward at all. I think you were also forced to use these pseudonyms.

We weren't.  BA's first batch of posts, at 3:30 in the morning an hour after the council QT opened (and as the first person to post), was to suggest we use the pseudonyms instead of our regular names.  This is either AMAZING foresight on BA's part (who is newbie scum here in this scenario), or the obvious conclusion that they were optional.  Additionally, Jimmm clarified later on that using a name other than your username without permission would be against the rules.  You can argue this is ambiguous, but I think his wording in this (check with Hydrad) strongly suggests that we have the option to use pseudonyms.

Easy. first and foremost, even under pseudonym, BA wants to appear townie. Not posting is not townie. Plus, the pseudonym protects him, so why not post and try to manipulate?

Because scum needs to think about what to say.  And for him to come in right away with a plan to manipulate requires him having some concept of what end he's manipulating to.  And he couldn't do this, because even in the case where we were scum, we would not have had any collaboration about this yet.

See, here's where I am suspicious. Why does it take you to claim the Masons? That BA doesn't claim Masons is suspicious, because in a BA/WW scumteam, I expect you, WW, to plan such fakeclaims, since you're the experienced one.

BA would have to answer why he did not bring it up.  Myself, I wasn't sure if we should admit it in there or not.. I couldn't really foresee the possible dangers, but I ultimately couldn't think of a good reason not to.

Okay, I understand this concern from your perspective.

Of course as scum you want to claim quickly, in order to be able to make this exact argument. But for all we know, you had the chance to inform BA first. That doesn't necessarily take, like, multiple hours.

But we have to plan things!  You know this.. you and I talked over and over on how we'd handle situations as a scum team.  Here I'd have to just leave a message in the QT and hope he plays along.  What if I didn't think about every possible outcome?  What if I made bad assumptions?  What if this plan sucks?

And his confusion is also suspicions, because to me it says you didn't explain it to him properly. If he really had a message from Jimmmmm, there would be no need to be confused.

He was confused because he's a new player.  Again, why would I be telling him that we're Masons in the Council QT and not or own QT, if we planned this out?

Yes, you did, see the explanation above. Plus, if we are already at MyLo, this is a good way to get that one last mislynch.

Exactly when in the last few days of BA and I playing multiple 12's did we have extra dice to save to make this MyLo?

Lynching a low roller did exactly what we wanted to: Forced scum into contributing. I mean, if you make that sort of argument, you'd have to show me how the plays of the players you suspect were scummier than yours.

BA played a 12 on Day 1.  Voltaire was not lynched because of his low rolling. Ichi was the one under major fire (from you, nonetheless), not Volt, whose roll was more or less ignored in favor of meta arguments.

PPE: 18

[Witherweaver]

So, I am thinking that for sure PPS or Ash has to be scum now because of XPs death. Why else would XP die unless scum say him as a real threat?

XP died because he was pretty much conf!town.

I had no idea XP was town.

[faust]

Vote: WW

I have reason to believe no lynch might be worse than I originally thought, not sure whether I should discuss details though.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: WW

I have reason to believe no lynch might be worse than I originally thought, not sure whether I should discuss details though.

You cannot possibly think your argument makes any sense at all.  I don't understand this at all as the person that's suppose to be thinking through things and figuring stuff out.

[ashersky]

Vote: WW

I have reason to believe no lynch might be worse than I originally thought, not sure whether I should discuss details though.

You cannot possibly think your argument makes any sense at all.  I don't understand this at all as the person that's suppose to be thinking through things and figuring stuff out.

The "you aren't making sense" argument is a scum tell.  However, this post is a null tell in this instance because you actually responded yo his case earlier.

[Witherweaver]

This is what I want peope to consider especially:

(iiib) [The ''conspiracy theory''] The scum team is forced into a QT.  (Would this be different if three scum or one scum were left alive?  How would this work at a general prize?  No clue.) The scum team has to post in the QT and is given a pseudonyms that they can use.  The scum team then decides to capitalize and claim they were made Masons.

(iiib') [A different version] Four players are selected at random, and two at random to get to use pseudonyms, or something like that.

It should be obvious that (iiib) and (iiib'), or the other incarnations of these, are silly.  If I'm scum, I'm told I have to post in the QT, I just post "." and never go back again.  Okay this might be a little dangerous because then the two Neighbors can figure out they should be town since the others aren't posting.  I can then, of course, just kill one of them.  Then there's only one person saying what went on in the QT, and it's completely useless.  Or I use the opportunity to spread misinformation.  Or I simply post in there as I normally would, and use the opportunity to get more insight on what town members are thinking.

In what way does this possibly benefit the town?  How is this a prize?

And here's where you're fundamentally wrong. Suppose that, in (iiib), scum doesn't post in the QT and nobody claims Alice or Bob the next morning. Then we know that Alice and Bob must be the scum. Which consequently means that neither Ichi nor Hydrad can be scum. So if Alice and Bob don't claim, they create two ICs. If they claim, well, that a good spot to start looking for scum. So do you really think the reward in this case gives no benefit? I think this makes perfect sense.

We could also JUST POST NORMALLY.  There's no reason ANYONE would have ANY reason at all to suspect scum were in the QT.  We'd all be like "okay, we got a neighborhood.. not sure why."  There would be NO pressure on us and NO spotlight.

This is  the most convoluted and nonsensical concept of a "prize" I can possibly imagine.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: WW

I have reason to believe no lynch might be worse than I originally thought, not sure whether I should discuss details though.

You cannot possibly think your argument makes any sense at all.  I don't understand this at all as the person that's suppose to be thinking through things and figuring stuff out.

The "you aren't making sense" argument is a scum tell.  However, this post is a null tell in this instance because you actually responded yo his case earlier.

No, me calling an argument that doesn't make sense nonsensical is a human being tell.  Meaning I'm a human being that can make observations about the world.

[Hydrad]

Honestly if we are going to vote for someone I want to vote for asher as his is the only claim right now that can't be verified in any way.

I also feel like asher is the only one that might be loved in this game. I do believe his claim of throwing 4 dice away but he could of easily lied and just used 5 instead. I'm really sorry if WW/BA is the scum team but I really can't see them being it.

PPE:2

[ashersky]

Vote: WW

I have reason to believe no lynch might be worse than I originally thought, not sure whether I should discuss details though.

You cannot possibly think your argument makes any sense at all.  I don't understand this at all as the person that's suppose to be thinking through things and figuring stuff out.

The "you aren't making sense" argument is a scum tell.  However, this post is a null tell in this instance because you actually responded yo his case earlier.

No, me calling an argument that doesn't make sense nonsensical is a human being tell.  Meaning I'm a human being that can make observations about the world.

Me: posts an observation that a WW post would normally have been scummy to me, but wasn't given context.

WW: responds in a scummy, mean-spirited way without cause.

Welcome to the decline of civility in mafia games thread.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 4.4

ashersky (2): Witherweaver, pingpongsam
pingpongsam (3): liopoil, Archetype, Beyond Awesome
Witherweaver (2): ashersky, faust
no lynch (1): Hydrad

not voting (0)

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 26 at 11 am forum time.
Day 1 ends on July 28 at 11 am forum time.

Target: 4
Score: 5

[Witherweaver]

It's a bad argument!  That's easy to see!

[liopoil]

Honestly if we are going to vote for someone I want to vote for asher as his is the only claim right now that can't be verified in any way.

I also feel like asher is the only one that might be loved in this game. I do believe his claim of throwing 4 dice away but he could of easily lied and just used 5 instead. I'm really sorry if WW/BA is the scum team but I really can't see them being it.

PPE:2

Hmm, I do agree with the things you say here. I just feel better about pps.

Why do you like no lynch? Because you aren't sure? Do you think you may be more sure tomorrow?

[Hydrad]

Honestly if we are going to vote for someone I want to vote for asher as his is the only claim right now that can't be verified in any way.

I also feel like asher is the only one that might be loved in this game. I do believe his claim of throwing 4 dice away but he could of easily lied and just used 5 instead. I'm really sorry if WW/BA is the scum team but I really can't see them being it.

PPE:2

Hmm, I do agree with the things you say here. I just feel better about pps.

Why do you like no lynch? Because you aren't sure? Do you think you may be more sure tomorrow?

I was hoping that if we no lynched we could confirm PPS role but at this point I don't think even confirming his role will do much for us as I believe he has that role now.

I still think PPS has a high chance of being scum though. At this point I almost want to just lynch PPS/asher to get this day over and have all these speculations dissapear.

[ashersky]

Hydrad is hedging and lynch fishing at the same time.  So scummy.

[Witherweaver]

What is lynch fishing?

[ashersky]

WW has been the biggest proponent of the "his role is confirmed" argument, right?

That argument should in no way affect people's reads, as roles and alignments have nothing to do with each other, as mentioned a bazillion times by WW and PPS.

Also, if WW/BA could please reconcile that setup rule with the role of Mason, that would be fantastic.

[ashersky]

What is lynch fishing?

Where you keep suggesting possible "ok" lynches until one sticks.  Often "just to get this day over with."

[Witherweaver]

WW has been the biggest proponent of the "his role is confirmed" argument, right?

That argument should in no way affect people's reads, as roles and alignments have nothing to do with each other, as mentioned a bazillion times by WW and PPS.

Also, if WW/BA could please reconcile that setup rule with the role of Mason, that would be fantastic.

Oh, well, this is interesting.  We could have been made scum Masons.

[faust]

This is what I want peope to consider especially:

(iiib) [The ''conspiracy theory''] The scum team is forced into a QT.  (Would this be different if three scum or one scum were left alive?  How would this work at a general prize?  No clue.) The scum team has to post in the QT and is given a pseudonyms that they can use.  The scum team then decides to capitalize and claim they were made Masons.

(iiib') [A different version] Four players are selected at random, and two at random to get to use pseudonyms, or something like that.

It should be obvious that (iiib) and (iiib'), or the other incarnations of these, are silly.  If I'm scum, I'm told I have to post in the QT, I just post "." and never go back again.  Okay this might be a little dangerous because then the two Neighbors can figure out they should be town since the others aren't posting.  I can then, of course, just kill one of them.  Then there's only one person saying what went on in the QT, and it's completely useless.  Or I use the opportunity to spread misinformation.  Or I simply post in there as I normally would, and use the opportunity to get more insight on what town members are thinking.

In what way does this possibly benefit the town?  How is this a prize?

And here's where you're fundamentally wrong. Suppose that, in (iiib), scum doesn't post in the QT and nobody claims Alice or Bob the next morning. Then we know that Alice and Bob must be the scum. Which consequently means that neither Ichi nor Hydrad can be scum. So if Alice and Bob don't claim, they create two ICs. If they claim, well, that a good spot to start looking for scum. So do you really think the reward in this case gives no benefit? I think this makes perfect sense.

We could also JUST POST NORMALLY.  There's no reason ANYONE would have ANY reason at all to suspect scum were in the QT.  We'd all be like "okay, we got a neighborhood.. not sure why."  There would be NO pressure on us and NO spotlight.

This is  the most convoluted and nonsensical concept of a "prize" I can possibly imagine.

There would be, as you would have posted under pseudonyms.

PPE: 11

[Witherweaver]

What is lynch fishing?

Where you keep suggesting possible "ok" lynches until one sticks.  Often "just to get this day over with."

Ah,  I see.  Though I can understand wanting to get this day over with.

[Hydrad]

What is lynch fishing?

Where you keep suggesting possible "ok" lynches until one sticks.  Often "just to get this day over with."

well ya. I guess that is exactly what I'm doing. Mainly because I think you and PPS have at least 1 scum there and highly likely that their are 2.

[Witherweaver]

This is what I want peope to consider especially:

(iiib) [The ''conspiracy theory''] The scum team is forced into a QT.  (Would this be different if three scum or one scum were left alive?  How would this work at a general prize?  No clue.) The scum team has to post in the QT and is given a pseudonyms that they can use.  The scum team then decides to capitalize and claim they were made Masons.

(iiib') [A different version] Four players are selected at random, and two at random to get to use pseudonyms, or something like that.

It should be obvious that (iiib) and (iiib'), or the other incarnations of these, are silly.  If I'm scum, I'm told I have to post in the QT, I just post "." and never go back again.  Okay this might be a little dangerous because then the two Neighbors can figure out they should be town since the others aren't posting.  I can then, of course, just kill one of them.  Then there's only one person saying what went on in the QT, and it's completely useless.  Or I use the opportunity to spread misinformation.  Or I simply post in there as I normally would, and use the opportunity to get more insight on what town members are thinking.

In what way does this possibly benefit the town?  How is this a prize?

And here's where you're fundamentally wrong. Suppose that, in (iiib), scum doesn't post in the QT and nobody claims Alice or Bob the next morning. Then we know that Alice and Bob must be the scum. Which consequently means that neither Ichi nor Hydrad can be scum. So if Alice and Bob don't claim, they create two ICs. If they claim, well, that a good spot to start looking for scum. So do you really think the reward in this case gives no benefit? I think this makes perfect sense.

We could also JUST POST NORMALLY.  There's no reason ANYONE would have ANY reason at all to suspect scum were in the QT.  We'd all be like "okay, we got a neighborhood.. not sure why."  There would be NO pressure on us and NO spotlight.

This is  the most convoluted and nonsensical concept of a "prize" I can possibly imagine.

There would be, as you would have posted under pseudonyms.

PPE: 11

We didn't have to. 

[faust]

We didn't have to.

You do see that there's no proof to that, right?

[Hydrad]

We didn't have to.

You do see that there's no proof to that, right?

What if tonight they change their psudonyms?

[Witherweaver]

WW has been the biggest proponent of the "his role is confirmed" argument, right?

That argument should in no way affect people's reads, as roles and alignments have nothing to do with each other, as mentioned a bazillion times by WW and PPS.

Also, if WW/BA could please reconcile that setup rule with the role of Mason, that would be fantastic.

Never have I or anyone else argued that X person having Y role implies X is scum or town.  So I'm not sure what you mean here.

The point of confirmation is, if person X claimed a role, and we confirmed that role, then it's quite likely that they don't have the mysterious "die destroying" role.  It is still possible, as it could work into their role with the confirmed part in some way, but this is a bit of an edge case. 

That's the only way in which we've been using roles to get an indication of alignment.

I'm wondering why you and PPS seem to continually misinterpret that argument.

[faust]

We didn't have to.

You do see that there's no proof to that, right?

Actually, if you didn't have to use pseudonyms, it would have made a lot more sense for you to just post with your real names and NOT talk about your masonry, why didn't you do that?

[Witherweaver]

We didn't have to.

You do see that there's no proof to that, right?

Gobs of evidence available in the Council QT

[Witherweaver]

We didn't have to.

You do see that there's no proof to that, right?

What if tonight they change their psudonyms?

We can't, check what Jimmm said.

[faust]

We didn't have to.

You do see that there's no proof to that, right?

What if tonight they change their psudonyms?

Tonight is likely already too late to confirm anything, should we lynch today (and sadly, also should we no lynch today).

[Witherweaver]

We didn't have to.

You do see that there's no proof to that, right?

Actually, if you didn't have to use pseudonyms, it would have made a lot more sense for you to just post with your real names and NOT talk about your masonry, why didn't you do that?

I couldn't see why it made a lot more sense.

[Witherweaver]

We didn't have to.

You do see that there's no proof to that, right?

What if tonight they change their psudonyms?

Tonight is likely already too late to confirm anything, should we lynch today (and sadly, also should we no lynch today).

Why is this?

[faust]

We didn't have to.

You do see that there's no proof to that, right?

What if tonight they change their psudonyms?

We can't, check what Jimmm said.

What did Jimmmmm say?

[faust]

Why is this?

Reasons I think revealing would be detrimental to town.

[Witherweaver]

We didn't have to.

You do see that there's no proof to that, right?

What if tonight they change their psudonyms?

We can't, check what Jimmm said.

What did Jimmmmm say?

Posting under different names is not allowed unless you have permission from the mod.

[Witherweaver]

Why is this?

Reasons I think revealing would be detrimental to town.

Okay.

[faust]

We didn't have to.

You do see that there's no proof to that, right?

Actually, if you didn't have to use pseudonyms, it would have made a lot more sense for you to just post with your real names and NOT talk about your masonry, why didn't you do that?

I couldn't see why it made a lot more sense.

Because you would look a lot less scummy then.

[faust]

Posting under different names is not allowed unless you have permission from the mod.

But didn't you just claim you do have permission from the mod?

[faust]

Thinking about it, I can just reveal my problem, since scum wants to kill me tonight anyway.

I will be completely VLA starting August 6.

This means I will have to out, which then means I will most likely be modkilled. (Jimmmmm didn't yet respond to my question) So this is why no-lynch is bad: Because I will die, and that will cause problems.

[pingpongsam]

For the purposes of today I believe BA/WW. Faust is town, too. I think arch is likely scum. I think hydrad could be. I think ashersky could be but he is the least likely to be in my mind if those who could be. I still think WW/BA may be getting one over on me but recently I have seen them be far less scummy than they were being. Because of all this I am not opposed to no lynch just to see who comes up dead tomorrow and to see what takes place tonight.

PPE well the dead Faust thing sucks. If he is going to get mod killed isn't lynching him a thing? I mean, I think he is the towniest of them all besides myself but if he has to die...

[Hydrad]

We still have till the 6th. If scum lets him live and he uses his cop ability it should be more then enough for us to win. All we have to do is rush through the game a bit and not wait till the last day to lynch

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, one thing is certain. Scum is within Faust, PPS, and Ash. Sorry Faust for putting you there. But, upon my reread, the Mentalist has visited each of these three people. And, these are the three people without confirmed roles. So, each of these people knew XP was town (I certainly didn't, I found Ichi more townie).

While a lot of people do think Faust is town, he has been pushing a lot of mislynches/tunneling town players. He pushed Ichi hard D1 who was later town. He pushed me hard D2 and then pushed for an e lynch who ended up being town and whom I did vote for. Well, D3 doesn't count. And, now he is tunneling WW and I hard without considering the possibility of anyone else being scum, especially those other two players who were visited by the Mentalist and whose roles cannot be confirmed.

[faust]

I can confirm ash's alignment. And I think he's town based on play.

[Witherweaver]

We didn't have to.

You do see that there's no proof to that, right?

Actually, if you didn't have to use pseudonyms, it would have made a lot more sense for you to just post with your real names and NOT talk about your masonry, why didn't you do that?

I couldn't see why it made a lot more sense.

Because you would look a lot less scummy then.

I don't understand why.  Should we have kept Masonry secret until tomorrow?  What if one of us died?

It's entirely possible I made a mistake.  I'm not so experienced and don't have a handle on all the strategy, and have never even played with masons before.

PPE: 6, boss came in~

[Witherweaver]

Posting under different names is not allowed unless you have permission from the mod.

But didn't you just claim you do have permission from the mod?

We were given permission to use Alice (me) and Bob (BA)

[Witherweaver]

Okay, I guess you don't know that we weren't given permission to use any other names.  Though I'm not sure why that's relevant, or what prompted this particular discussion.

[Hydrad]

Posting under different names is not allowed unless you have permission from the mod.

But didn't you just claim you do have permission from the mod?

Jimm answered this from my question asking if I was able to impersonate Bob.

[Witherweaver]

Maybe we just messesd up, but I don't understand what the best play would be.  Why did we have the option to use pseudonyms if there wasn't a benefit?  Why would it be better to keep Masonry secret?  How would it be any more believable if we came out with it later?  Wouldn't it be less believable?

[faust]

Posting under different names is not allowed unless you have permission from the mod.

But didn't you just claim you do have permission from the mod?

We were given permission to use Alice (me) and Bob (BA)

Then you can change to your real names.

[Witherweaver]

Posting under different names is not allowed unless you have permission from the mod.

But didn't you just claim you do have permission from the mod?

We were given permission to use Alice (me) and Bob (BA)

Then you can change to your real names.

Yes.

[Witherweaver]

Oh.. Duh. That verifies that it isn't obligatory.

Sorry too many things going on.

[Witherweaver]

Well, that's something.  Though, if scum kills Hydrad tonight, not so great.  But if you're town, then somewhat better.  Unless Archetype isn't town (to send you Mentalist back). 

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, that's something.  Though, if scum kills Hydrad tonight, not so great.  But if you're town, then somewhat better.  Unless Archetype isn't town (to send you Mentalist back).

That would be good though. We lynch Arch then.

[Beyond Awesome]

A part of me was just considering no lynch, but here are my worries. I know Faust thinks WW and I might be scum or Faust is scum and is trying to set us up for a mislynch. But, assuming Faust is town his intentions are for the best, and I can see his perspective.

But, here are my worries.

Faust is actually scum. He can then cop his partner claiming his partner is town. Then, I can imagine a scenario is made up where something goes wrong with confirming WW or me. For instance, Hydrad dies, now my role can't be confirmed. Or, the person WW targets is scum and lies or is someone that has little to no dice to role. Or, WW targets the same person PPS targets which makes things only wonky.

Assuming PPS is town, he can also run into similar problems. He could target someone that gets stolen from which will only make him look suspicious. The person he targets is actually scum and lies about getting dice.

So, while I am considering a no lynch, I also see ways where scum might be able to manipulate mislynches which is what worries me the most.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, in terms of confirming Faust, assuming Faust is town, scum could decide to not steal dice tomorrow. Or, Faust could target the same player that scum targets. So, there are a lot of variables at play, and being able to confirm even a single players role might be a bit of a challenge.

So, with that said, even though I was just considering a no lynch, I think we must consider a lynch today. We also need to lynch between Faust, PPS, and Ash. They were all visited by the Mentalist before XP died and they have roles that have yet to be confirmed.

[ashersky]

Do we even have confirmation that dice have been destroyed this game?

All we have are people stating that they "lost" dice or had dice "taken away" from them at night.  That doesn't mean destroyed, necessarily.  There are/were theives running around.  There are things you could do with your dice, and saying they were lost is an easy cover. 

Why is "dice destroyer" the de facto correct assumption?

[ashersky]

Also, in terms of confirming Faust, assuming Faust is town, scum could decide to not steal dice tomorrow. Or, Faust could target the same player that scum targets. So, there are a lot of variables at play, and being able to confirm even a single players role might be a bit of a challenge.

So, with that said, even though I was just considering a no lynch, I think we must consider a lynch today. We also need to lynch between Faust, PPS, and Ash. They were all visited by the Mentalist before XP died and they have roles that have yet to be confirmed.

Why does being visited by the Mentalist make someone scum?

[Beyond Awesome]

Do we even have confirmation that dice have been destroyed this game?

All we have are people stating that they "lost" dice or had dice "taken away" from them at night.  That doesn't mean destroyed, necessarily.  There are/were theives running around.  There are things you could do with your dice, and saying they were lost is an easy cover. 

Why is "dice destroyer" the de facto correct assumption?

I think that is the term that everyone is using. No one knows for certain except scum.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, in terms of confirming Faust, assuming Faust is town, scum could decide to not steal dice tomorrow. Or, Faust could target the same player that scum targets. So, there are a lot of variables at play, and being able to confirm even a single players role might be a bit of a challenge.

So, with that said, even though I was just considering a no lynch, I think we must consider a lynch today. We also need to lynch between Faust, PPS, and Ash. They were all visited by the Mentalist before XP died and they have roles that have yet to be confirmed.

Why does being visited by the Mentalist make someone scum?

Well, XP was NK'd right after Box. While XP was a strong town read, he was not my strongest. No one knew the Mentalist could cop except those who were visited. They also knew XP controlled the Mentalist, so I am guessing they assumed by killing XP, they also got rid of the ability to cop someone this game.

[Witherweaver]

Do we even have confirmation that dice have been destroyed this game?

All we have are people stating that they "lost" dice or had dice "taken away" from them at night.  That doesn't mean destroyed, necessarily.  There are/were theives running around.  There are things you could do with your dice, and saying they were lost is an easy cover. 

Why is "dice destroyer" the de facto correct assumption?

We say "destroy" to differentiate from Yuma's role.  On Day 1, Box lost dice and PPS claimed to lose dice.  On Day 2, Yuma admitted to targeting Box again and BA lost dice.  (I know this to be true as he's confirmed to me, but to all of you this is a "claimed".  However, both him and PPS couldn't be scum together, so we can take one of those two to be true.)  On Day 3, I lost dice and Yuma had died.  Faust claimed to target me and to give Hydrad more dice than he actually got.

So, yes, we know there were two roles that take away dice.  There is at least one now (depending on whether Faust is telling the truth with backup or not).

[Witherweaver]

Also, in terms of confirming Faust, assuming Faust is town, scum could decide to not steal dice tomorrow. Or, Faust could target the same player that scum targets. So, there are a lot of variables at play, and being able to confirm even a single players role might be a bit of a challenge.

So, with that said, even though I was just considering a no lynch, I think we must consider a lynch today. We also need to lynch between Faust, PPS, and Ash. They were all visited by the Mentalist before XP died and they have roles that have yet to be confirmed.

Why does being visited by the Mentalist make someone scum?

It could have been a natural kill for scum visited by the Mentalist, thinking that the Mentalist would stop visiting after XP died and keeping clear of a future cop result.

[Witherweaver]

But yes, the other person causing dice depletion could be a scum thief, I just started using "dice destroyer" back on Day 2 (I think) once Yuma claimed to differentiate it from that role.

[Beyond Awesome]

Faust, you said earlier that you could give a rundown of the amount of dice that you gave to each player. Can you please do that for me? Thanks. I would really appreciate it a lot.

[ashersky]

But yes, the other person causing dice depletion could be a scum thief, I just started using "dice destroyer" back on Day 2 (I think) once Yuma claimed to differentiate it from that role.

I'm saying that instead of a second role being responsible, the people not targeted by yuma could be lying.

[ashersky]

Also, in terms of confirming Faust, assuming Faust is town, scum could decide to not steal dice tomorrow. Or, Faust could target the same player that scum targets. So, there are a lot of variables at play, and being able to confirm even a single players role might be a bit of a challenge.

So, with that said, even though I was just considering a no lynch, I think we must consider a lynch today. We also need to lynch between Faust, PPS, and Ash. They were all visited by the Mentalist before XP died and they have roles that have yet to be confirmed.

Why does being visited by the Mentalist make someone scum?

It could have been a natural kill for scum visited by the Mentalist, thinking that the Mentalist would stop visiting after XP died and keeping clear of a future cop result.

That's a good point.  You may recall me going after PPS for NOT voting XP for the dice giving reward since he would have known XP was confirmed town.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, in terms of confirming Faust, assuming Faust is town, scum could decide to not steal dice tomorrow. Or, Faust could target the same player that scum targets. So, there are a lot of variables at play, and being able to confirm even a single players role might be a bit of a challenge.

So, with that said, even though I was just considering a no lynch, I think we must consider a lynch today. We also need to lynch between Faust, PPS, and Ash. They were all visited by the Mentalist before XP died and they have roles that have yet to be confirmed.

Why does being visited by the Mentalist make someone scum?

It could have been a natural kill for scum visited by the Mentalist, thinking that the Mentalist would stop visiting after XP died and keeping clear of a future cop result.

That's a good point.  You may recall me going after PPS for NOT voting XP for the dice giving reward since he would have known XP was confirmed town.

I do recall it since that is around the point I am with my full reread.

[Beyond Awesome]

And, you know Ash that is actually a very good point on your part. To PPS XP was the only 100% confirmed town player, so why didn't he vote for XP? That is a great question.

[ashersky]

And, you know Ash that is actually a very good point on your part. To PPS XP was the only 100% confirmed town player, so why didn't he vote for XP? That is a great question.

Because faust is his scum partner?  (I mean, in the world where he's scum and you two are town, it's possible.)

[Witherweaver]

But yes, the other person causing dice depletion could be a scum thief, I just started using "dice destroyer" back on Day 2 (I think) once Yuma claimed to differentiate it from that role.

I'm saying that instead of a second role being responsible, the people not targeted by yuma could be lying.

can't have both PPS and BA lying.  BA and I must have same alignment.  similar Faust/me/hydrad

[pingpongsam]

And, you know Ash that is actually a very good point on your part. To PPS XP was the only 100% confirmed town player, so why didn't he vote for XP? That is a great question.

Which I answered then, which you know since you reread, right? I voted Faust because I expected XP to be the most likely NK. Super protown and correct moved smeared for an agenda once again. Make up your mind about me already. Rehashing the same crap with new spins to try to paint me scum is getting old.

[Beyond Awesome]

And, you know Ash that is actually a very good point on your part. To PPS XP was the only 100% confirmed town player, so why didn't he vote for XP? That is a great question.

Which I answered then, which you know since you reread, right? I voted Faust because I expected XP to be the most likely NK. Super protown and correct moved smeared for an agenda once again. Make up your mind about me already. Rehashing the same crap with new spins to try to paint me scum is getting old.

Yes, I recall you saying that. And, I am not trying to paint you scum. I am looking for scummy actions that players did. I am trying to get to the bottom of this. Obviously, I am assuming potential scum in you, Ash, and Faust. But, at least one of you has to be town.

[Witherweaver]

also pps could have just claimed to vote for xp

[ashersky]

And, you know Ash that is actually a very good point on your part. To PPS XP was the only 100% confirmed town player, so why didn't he vote for XP? That is a great question.

Which I answered then, which you know since you reread, right? I voted Faust because I expected XP to be the most likely NK. Super protown and correct moved smeared for an agenda once again. Make up your mind about me already. Rehashing the same crap with new spins to try to paint me scum is getting old.

You can see how this would be a scum reasoning.  Scum knew he would die.

No one knew if him dying meant he couldn't give out dice.  I would have argued it would happen before the killing.

[ashersky]

also pps could have just claimed to vote for xp

Is that a point in his favor?

[pingpongsam]

also pps could have just claimed to vote for xp

Is that a point in his favor?

Clearly

[Witherweaver]

well I mean.. I'm not sure actually.

[liopoil]

Thinking about it, I can just reveal my problem, since scum wants to kill me tonight anyway.

I will be completely VLA starting August 6.

This means I will have to out, which then means I will most likely be modkilled. (Jimmmmm didn't yet respond to my question) So this is why no-lynch is bad: Because I will die, and that will cause problems.

oh gosh, I have a VLA around then too. I will still have access ~once a day though, so won't be a huge problem. I'll post in the VLA thread when it's nearer.

[liopoil]

So, it seems that we've more or less decided we don't like no lynch (and with faust's VLA I agree even moreso), but we can't come to a lynch. We've argued everything to death. I think we should post our reads and regroup (pretty much everyone has posted reads here and there, but I like having it more organized). my reads:

pingpongsam >>>>> archetype > ashersky >>>>> faust >>> Witherweaver > BA >> Hydrad

no lynch would probably be between ash and faust at this point.

[pingpongsam]

Archetype>>>hydrad>>ashersky/liopoil>no lynch>WW/BA>>>>faust

[Beyond Awesome]

PPS>>Ash>>>>Faust>>>>lio>>Arch>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hydrad/WW

[Hydrad]

Asher/PPS >>>>>>>>>> asher/PPS >>>>>>>>>> arch>>>>>>>>>>>>>lio>>>>>>>>>>>faust

[ashersky]

WW/BA > liopoil > archetype > hydrad > PPS > faust

[Witherweaver]

Ash > PPS > Faust  > Arch > Lio > Hydrad

[faust]

Asher/PPS >>>>>>>>>> asher/PPS >>>>>>>>>> arch>>>>>>>>>>>>>lio>>>>>>>>>>>faust

Something isn't quite right here.

[faust]

BA/WW > no lynch

[faust]

Please let's not lynch just now. I'm still checking something.

[ashersky]

Compiling, for fun:

faust:  BA/WW > No Lynch
WW: Ash > PPS > Faust > Arch > Lio > Hydrad
ash: BA/WW > liopoil > archetype > hydrad > PPS > Faust
Hydrad: ash/PPS > arch > lio > faust
BA: PPS > ash > Faust > Lio > Arch > Hydrad/WW
PPS: Arch > hydrad > ash/lio > No Lynch > WW/BA > Faust
lio: PPS > arch > ash > faust > ww > BA > Hydrad

[ashersky]

Still missing arch's list.

2 for BA/WW, 2 for Ash, 2 for PPS, 1 for Arch.  I assume Arch would put his top choice in the ash/PPS area.

No consensus, at all.

[pingpongsam]

Still missing arch's list.

2 for BA/WW, 2 for Ash, 2 for PPS, 1 for Arch.  I assume Arch would put his top choice in the ash/PPS area.

No consensus, at all.

When you weight in people's 2nd choices archetype begins to be a preferred candidate.

[faust]

After a short correspondence with Jimmmmm, I have good news: I will be allowed to sub out Replacement has already been found, not sure whether I should announce who that is though.

[faust]

With that, and seeing people's preference lists, back to

Vote: No Lynch

[Witherweaver]

So, the three people that have argued against me and BA being Town are Faust, PPS, and Ash.

Faust immediately questions it (something like, "the two scummiest people claim Masons, I smell a scum plot").  I expect this to not be too unnatural of a reaction in a vacuum.  It's obviously terrible in this game, and with BA and myself, but taken out of context being very suspicious is sensible.  Notably, Faust had been tunneling me since the day before, so it would be somewhat of a coincidence that he's scum, pushing for a mislynch, and then his mislynch candidate all the sudden comes out and claims Masons.  I don't know.. his play during early days wasn't really scummy.. he mostly seemed to be trying to figure things out.. He pushed for a mass claim early.. does this make sense with his role?  Perhaps.. maybe he thought a massclaim would give scum a dilemma on who to kill, because he could inherit a powerful Town role.  He could have been trying to judge whether to fake claim or claim something about his hypothetical role.. but kind of dangerous if we force him to go early in the claiming.  I also still can't figure out .. why try to lynch us as scum?  There has to be a level of WIFOM here to be able to argue "why would I do this as scum when I know you'll flip town"?  That would be some fast thinking on Faust's part, though.. he responded against us pretty quickly.

A better scum strategy would be to paint us as scummy today, let *us* be more in charge of a lynch and try to insure it's a mislynch (BA and I are pretty much honed in on PPS/Ash, and one of them must be Town if Faust is scum), and then argue to get us lynched tomorrow.  Unless we really are in MyLo today.

I guess the thing that makes me so nervous about Faust was that his claim was so convenient.. that only one player had dice taken away yesterday, and the player that was apparently attacked by scum was given dice by Faust.

Faust: why did you ask if anyone had gained 1,3, or 4 dice? 

-----

PPS initially accepted that BA and myself were probably telling the truth, but started fighting us hard when we didn't want to no lynch.  This makes sense from a Town perspective if he really thought No Lynch was the best idea, and couldn't see any reason that BA and I would oppose it as town.  Scum narrative.. well, he might not want the attention of adamantly calling out players he knows are Town.  Same argument as in Faust, though here he had some more time to think over how things would look and already had one player arguing against us.. He's since backed off, which makes me feel better about him, but of course there's no sound basis for that.

-----

Ash initially didn't have much of an opinion.  He only started attacking us after Faust and PPS had already expressed a lot of concern.  This strikes me as the scummiest.. sit back and judge the mood of things before taking a side.  I also feel the worst about Ash's arguments, as (from my perspective at least), they've seemed very off and to be purposefully misinterpreting and twisting things to argue that BA and I are scum.  Plus, it should be blatantly obvious to Ash that this isn't scum me.  Well, it really should be to Faust, too, but I can more understand Faust to be at the point where he just isn't listening to me any more.   

Could Ash's attack on us been an attempt at getting people around to joining the mislynch?  He had already seen PPS/Faust willing (and eager) to do so, so he only needed to convince two players out of {Arch, Lio, Hydrad}.  They didn't seem to eager, but maybe if he thought we'd look bad enough they could go against us.  With Ash's experience at these things, I could see him getting away with something like that, and I could maybe see it working if he was only arguing against BA.

Especially weird was Ash's initially arguing that BA was a better lynch choice then me, when clearly our alignments are entangled.  That was a weird sort of behavior.. maybe if he thought if he argued directly for lynching me when Faust and PPS were already voting for me (was PPS?  I'm sure Faust was), it would look more like him joining on a wagon instead of looking like he legitimately thought we were scum.

------

Well, I still find Ash the scummiest.  Surprise.  Still no good explanation for why scum really wants to fight me and BA, so that worries me.  Scenarios:
(1) They did buy Loved, so a mislynch today is a win (6 town 2 scum -> 4 town 2 scum -> Loved scum needs 5 votes to lynch with 6 players... okay not a win, we can still lynch the unloved scum.  Only if both scum have Loved.  So, we'd still get tomorrow unless they both bought it. 
(2) A similar issue dealing with GR things that I don't think we've divulged yet (Faust knows). 
(3) They don't actually expect us to get lynched today.. just seed enough doubt so that we can get lynched tomorrow.  Well, a no lynch is good for scum in this case, as we're guaranteed not to hit a scum today.  If we successfully lynch today BA and myself are automatically verified and IC's.  So scum would want No Lynch if we're at all close to making the right choice today.  A mislynch is even better, because for everyone else that is believing BA and myself, we look worse as more Town players die.

Not sure the point.. just thinking out loud.  There is also the chance that scum is in {Arch, Lio, Hydrad}. I'm not lynching Hydrad today, though.. if he's scum, great.. and if he is, I think his partner would be one of the ones against us.  Lio and Arch I don't know.. I'm more nervous about Arch since he's been so quiet.

PPE: 6

[Jimmmmm]

To clarify re subs: I am not finding any more subs. If a player with a legitimate upcoming V/LA finds their own replacement, that is acceptable.

[Witherweaver]

Still missing arch's list.

2 for BA/WW, 2 for Ash, 2 for PPS, 1 for Arch.  I assume Arch would put his top choice in the ash/PPS area.

No consensus, at all.

It looks like Ash is possible to me~

Compiling, for fun:

faust:  BA/WW > No Lynch
WW: Ash > PPS > Faust > Arch > Lio > Hydrad
ash: BA/WW > liopoil > archetype > hydrad > PPS > Faust
Hydrad: ash/PPS > arch > lio > faust
BA: PPS > ash > Faust > Lio > Arch > Hydrad/WW
PPS: Arch > hydrad > ash/lio > No Lynch > WW/BA > Faust
lio: PPS > arch > ash > faust > ww > BA > Hydrad

[Witherweaver]

(If Lio and PPS are willing to go down to their third choice that is.)

[Witherweaver]

Maybe no lynch is just better.    I can't really figure it out.

[faust]

Faust: why did you ask if anyone had gained 1,3, or 4 dice? 

Because I didn't give out these amounts of dice (expect for Ichi, I gave him three dice). So if anyone received that number, I would know that someone else interfered.

[Witherweaver]

Not sure the point.. just thinking out loud.  There is also the chance that scum is in {Arch, Lio, Hydrad}. I'm not lynching Hydrad today, though.. if he's scum, great.. and if he is, I think his partner would be one of the ones against us.  Lio and Arch I don't know.. I'm more nervous about Arch since he's been so quiet.

PPE: 6

That looks weird.. I meant to say, if Hydrad is scum, great for him, he's been completely written off as Town most of this game.

[Witherweaver]

Faust: why did you ask if anyone had gained 1,3, or 4 dice? 

Because I didn't give out these amounts of dice (expect for Ichi, I gave him three dice). So if anyone received that number, I would know that someone else interfered.

I see.

[Witherweaver]

Actually maybe scum trying to lynch us isn't the bad strategy that I'm making it out to be in my head.  It's only bad if they look scummy in the fallout.. as long as they can reasonably justify suspecting us, it's not that incriminating.. and with three people that argued for our lynch, at least one must be town, so there's a bit of a safety annex there.

And yeah it creates an IC, but then they just shoot him tonight.

[Hydrad]

Actually maybe scum trying to lynch us isn't the bad strategy that I'm making it out to be in my head.  It's only bad if they look scummy in the fallout.. as long as they can reasonably justify suspecting us, it's not that incriminating.. and with three people that argued for our lynch, at least one must be town, so there's a bit of a safety annex there.

And yeah it creates an IC, but then they just shoot him tonight.

I think the big problem we are worried about is that we don't know if this is mylo or not. If scum is loved we have to hit him or else unless we get a vig from GR or something we just lose.

[Witherweaver]

Actually maybe scum trying to lynch us isn't the bad strategy that I'm making it out to be in my head.  It's only bad if they look scummy in the fallout.. as long as they can reasonably justify suspecting us, it's not that incriminating.. and with three people that argued for our lynch, at least one must be town, so there's a bit of a safety annex there.

And yeah it creates an IC, but then they just shoot him tonight.

I think the big problem we are worried about is that we don't know if this is mylo or not. If scum is loved we have to hit him or else unless we get a vig from GR or something we just lose.

No, only if both scum are Loved.  If we mislynch today, then night kill tonight, we're down to 4 Town 2 Scum.. 6 players, 4 to lynch.  Loved!Scum can't be lynched, but unloved one can with 4 votes.

Right?

[Hydrad]

Actually maybe scum trying to lynch us isn't the bad strategy that I'm making it out to be in my head.  It's only bad if they look scummy in the fallout.. as long as they can reasonably justify suspecting us, it's not that incriminating.. and with three people that argued for our lynch, at least one must be town, so there's a bit of a safety annex there.

And yeah it creates an IC, but then they just shoot him tonight.

I think the big problem we are worried about is that we don't know if this is mylo or not. If scum is loved we have to hit him or else unless we get a vig from GR or something we just lose.

No, only if both scum are Loved.  If we mislynch today, then night kill tonight, we're down to 4 Town 2 Scum.. 6 players, 4 to lynch.  Loved!Scum can't be lynched, but unloved one can with 4 votes.

Right?

yes but then it goes down to 3 town and 1 scum with 3 to lynch. and that scum is still loved. so we can't win.

[Witherweaver]

Oh. yes. night kill.  You're right.

[pingpongsam]

(If Lio and PPS are willing to go down to their third choice that is.)

I've been voting ash forever. Just because I have preference and arguments doesn't mean I think I know best. Lio is the one trapped in a tunnel.

[pingpongsam]

That an ash proponent has maintained a vote on him and he hasn't gotten lynched suggests he may well be scum.

[liopoil]

I think I'd vote ash or arch over no lynch, now.

[Hydrad]

I think i would only lynch ash/pps and then no lynch. If realllly needed I might lynch arch but I really feel like thats the wrong more.

[Beyond Awesome]

Faust: why did you ask if anyone had gained 1,3, or 4 dice? 

Because I didn't give out these amounts of dice (expect for Ichi, I gave him three dice). So if anyone received that number, I would know that someone else interfered.

Why did you give Ichi 3 dice?

Can you give a breakdown of how many dice you gave to each player?

[faust]

How many dice each player received:

me: 3
Xerxes: 3
Ichi: 3
Hydrad: 7
liopoil: 6
Archetype: 5
pingpongsam: 6
BA: 5
ashersky: 2
chairs: 2
Witherweaver: 0

Reasoning: This list is ordered by scumminess (how I viewed it at that point). My general idea was town players get more dice than scum players. I modified this: PPS and BA claimed to have little to no dice left, so they got more than I otherwise would have given them. Some super townie players like Xerxes and Ichi received fewer dice as well, because I expected them to be night killed (I was very good at predicting the night kills, yay me!) I received fewer dice because hey, I'm a Thief, I'll get the dice I need.

What is this good for again?

[Beyond Awesome]

Interesting. I wonder why it was 42 dice though and not 40 dice as a reward?

I guess though your choices are sensible. I can see you, Ichi, and XP being the likely NKs (although I did not expect XP to be the top NK, and I am certain he only died because of The Mentalist). Hydrad has been my strongest townread all game, so it makes sense that you would give him 7 dice. lio has seemed a bit scummy to me, so I would have given him less dice. I felt he has tried to blend in all game. Ash and chairs though were my two biggest scum reads going in D3. I can see you giving them 2 dice each. What made you feel going in D3 that WW was scum?

[Hydrad]

Interesting. I wonder why it was 42 dice though and not 40 dice as a reward?

I guess though your choices are sensible. I can see you, Ichi, and XP being the likely NKs (although I did not expect XP to be the top NK, and I am certain he only died because of The Mentalist). Hydrad has been my strongest townread all game, so it makes sense that you would give him 7 dice. lio has seemed a bit scummy to me, so I would have given him less dice. I felt he has tried to blend in all game. Ash and chairs though were my two biggest scum reads going in D3. I can see you giving them 2 dice each. What made you feel going in D3 that WW was scum?

I think faust hasn't liked WW since about day 2.

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, Faust, I think you really need to think about the whole Mentalist thing. I know to you XP was confirmed town. But, try to see it from the perspective of those who were not visited. Don't you think it a bit strange XP was the first "true" town NK and not you or Ichi? I think this is something you need to really think about rather than deciding that WW and I are scum no matter what.

[Beyond Awesome]

Still missing arch's list.

2 for BA/WW, 2 for Ash, 2 for PPS, 1 for Arch.  I assume Arch would put his top choice in the ash/PPS area.

No consensus, at all.

This is not true. When lists are weighted, it is a literal tie between you and PPS.

[Beyond Awesome]

And, when we go by just the top two choices, PPS comes out ahead.

[Beyond Awesome]

Archetype>>>hydrad>>ashersky/liopoil>no lynch>WW/BA>>>>faust

Why is Hydrad your number two choice?

[Beyond Awesome]

And, when we go by just the top two choices, PPS comes out ahead.

Although, this is because lio has Ash as his third lynch preference and PPS as his first.

Hydrad has Ash and PPS in the same spot.

I have PPS as my top lynch and Ash second.

WW has Ash as his top lynch and PPS as his second.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay Faust, assuming WW and I are town, who do you think is most likely scum, Ash or PPS?

[Beyond Awesome]

Hydrad, it seems it is a literal tie between Ash and PPS. You have PPS and Ash as your top lynch choices. Of the two, who do you think is most likely scum?

[Hydrad]

Hydrad, it seems it is a literal tie between Ash and PPS. You have PPS and Ash as your top lynch choices. Of the two, who do you think is most likely scum?

I think I would actually go with asher just because I believe PPS's claim so I think asher has the highest chance of being the "dice destroyer"

[pingpongsam]

Archetype>>>hydrad>>ashersky/liopoil>no lynch>WW/BA>>>>faust

Why is Hydrad your number two choice?

We discussed this. Other than his relationship to the Council Room there is nothing specific that confirms him as town but he acts as if he is. If we accept that the QT had masons and the other attendees could have been randomly selected the QT does not conf town him. So, with the idea he is conf town out of the way I have to look at what's left. I choose to believe WW/BA, Faust and ash and lio for reasons I have already discussed to death. Archetype is much more likely in my mind to be scum but hydrad defaults to second because I find nothing that supports him being for sure town like I do in the other guys. While I feel ash is towniest I admit he could easily be scum and I think his flip will be the most useful in the event of a mislynch (my own notwithstanding). That is, I put myself in the same category as ash with regards to the whole context of the game but since I know I am town and well, I am myself too, I have to choose ash instead of myself.

[ashersky]

If WW/BA are not lying, I think scum is in arch/lio/hydrad.  I think it is very unlikely Faust/PPS are scum.

But WW/BA are lying.  If we are going to lose to this fake claim, all of you should be ridiculously embarrassed and ashamed.  I'd much rather die right than survive wrong.  If outing was allowed, I absolutely would at this point.

There are too many inconsistencies, and too many statements they just want you to believe, for this to be just accepted at face value.  Why any of you continue to give them IC status is beyond me.

Those of you blindly following like sheep deserve the loss.  Unfortunately, that means all town gets a loss on their record, and this was a winnable game for town before this.

GG WW/BA.

[ashersky]

In fact, if I am somehow wrong, I can vow never to play another game of mafia again.  That's how strongly I feel about this.

[pingpongsam]

Ashersky, you'll never get 5 ppl to vote for the magical masons today. So, what's the backup plan? There was a point I wanted them lynched too but we have to accept reality here and move forward in the smartest manner possible. Maybe our reward is a town conensus vig, if so tonight we all vote for a magical mason of our choice and hope we get an IC or an easy win tomorrow. That ashersky seems so distraught but hasn't done the signature self vote does make me wonder...

[pingpongsam]

I swear this game feels like it started with a 5 man scum team.

[Beyond Awesome]

ash, what's keeping you from claiming? Your stretching this out is scummy.

I don't trust you and refuse to do what you say.

Why don't you trust Faust?

Why should I?  He's been leading town around like he's king of the world with zero reason.  He's not confirmed town by anyone.

He's pretty clearly scum leading town around like slobbering puppies, and he's wielding his power like that evil guy from Aladdin.  Or, you know, his namesake.

I've seen nothing redeeming in his play that confers on him God Emperor status.  I suggest you all temper for hero worship a bit.

WW/BA > liopoil > archetype > hydrad > PPS > faust

On D3, you said that Faust was definite scum, but yet now on D4, you have scum as the player you want lynched least.

[Hydrad]

In fact, if I am somehow wrong, I can vow never to play another game of mafia again.  That's how strongly I feel about this.

I really hate statements like this. Your either using a scum tactic to try and switch what I'm thinking about you or your town making a really strong statement. The problem is the if you were scum saying that it seems kinda underhanded. I understand scum is supposed to lie but still.

At this point if I trust myself its still ash/pps I want to lynch. But since this is my first game and faust and asher both are basically 100% sure the scum team is WW/BA I'm almost willing to swap my vote since I feel like they know what they are doing. Faust I trust as town and I can see one town person being that far  off but still super certain. But asher is feeling towny except for the VT claim which he can't really help if he got rolled it. Honestly I can't really find a good team out of ash/pps/arch and I think lio is town too. I can see one of them easily being scum but I can't really find a way that both are scum in their. This also makes me feel like the only team that I can come up with is WW/BA.

The problem is BA seems towny to me. With his rolls and interactions. I realize hes a newer player with a bit more experience so hes making some mistakes like not knowing what a mason is. But I also realize if I was in that situation I would definitaly abuse the fact that people think I don't know the game and would make small mistakes like that to make myself seem more towny. So if BA is aware of that fact and purposely making those mistakes to give himself a towny vibe then it completely makes sense on how I am being fooled.

I guess it comes down to do I trust the vets in this game or do I play it my way. I realize that my decision could either win or lose the game and I'm super torn on what to do. There isn't really a reason I made this post and overall it was probably a mistake because now scum knows what I'm thinking. But still I just have no idea what to do here and felt like posting this.

[ashersky]

On D3, you said that Faust was definite scum, but yet now on D4, you have scum as the player you want lynched least.

Correct.

[Beyond Awesome]

Another thing I am noticing on my reread (still on D3), is that Ash keeps saying he will claim, Faust pushes him to claim, he keeps saying he will and then Ash makes it so everyone else claims. At the end, of D3, Ash does not claim. D4, he states this was so scum would be afraid of him. But, if Ash were scum, wouldn't he also want to know all other roles and also not draw attention to what role he has? I know it has been discussed already. Just something I am noticing again.

[ashersky]

Hydrad, follow your heart/gut/mind, etc.  I want you to trust me, but not just because I've played so many games.

You think you had no reason to write your last post, but trust me, it was worth writing out.

[ashersky]

Another thing I am noticing on my reread (still on D3), is that Ash keeps saying he will claim, Faust pushes him to claim, he keeps saying he will and then Ash makes it so everyone else claims. At the end, of D3, Ash does not claim. D4, he states this was so scum would be afraid of him. But, if Ash were scum, wouldn't he also want to know all other roles and also not draw attention to what role he has? I know it has been discussed already. Just something I am noticing again.

This is true.  I knew it would make me seem super scummy.  Turns out claims weren't done anyway.

You can seek historical example of me (and other vets) stating often the best night outcome for a VT is NK because you basically saved all the PRs.  It's the mafia version of that paladin secret Noble Defender in Hearthstone.  Kinda crappy, but awesome if saving important minions.

[Beyond Awesome]

Another thing I am noticing on my reread (still on D3), is that Ash keeps saying he will claim, Faust pushes him to claim, he keeps saying he will and then Ash makes it so everyone else claims. At the end, of D3, Ash does not claim. D4, he states this was so scum would be afraid of him. But, if Ash were scum, wouldn't he also want to know all other roles and also not draw attention to what role he has? I know it has been discussed already. Just something I am noticing again.

This is true.  I knew it would make me seem super scummy.  Turns out claims weren't done anyway.

You can seek historical example of me (and other vets) stating often the best night outcome for a VT is NK because you basically saved all the PRs.  It's the mafia version of that paladin secret Noble Defender in Hearthstone.  Kinda crappy, but awesome if saving important minions.

I can see your point, but going into D4, assuming you are town, you kind of seemed like the easy mislynch. The entire council agreed that you seemed the scummiest of all players and not just for holding off for claiming. I don't buy the NK argument.

[ashersky]

Another thing I am noticing on my reread (still on D3), is that Ash keeps saying he will claim, Faust pushes him to claim, he keeps saying he will and then Ash makes it so everyone else claims. At the end, of D3, Ash does not claim. D4, he states this was so scum would be afraid of him. But, if Ash were scum, wouldn't he also want to know all other roles and also not draw attention to what role he has? I know it has been discussed already. Just something I am noticing again.

This is true.  I knew it would make me seem super scummy.  Turns out claims weren't done anyway.

You can seek historical example of me (and other vets) stating often the best night outcome for a VT is NK because you basically saved all the PRs.  It's the mafia version of that paladin secret Noble Defender in Hearthstone.  Kinda crappy, but awesome if saving important minions.

I can see your point, but going into D4, assuming you are town, you kind of seemed like the easy mislynch. The entire council agreed that you seemed the scummiest of all players and not just for holding off for claiming. I don't buy the NK argument.

Given you are scum, I don't care.

Put yourself in VT!me shoes.  You know you are one of the few non-useful roles in the game, you know there are lots of other things going on.  You also know that a VT claim will be scummy NK matter when you make it.  Holding off and drawing an NK was my best hope.

[Beyond Awesome]

Another thing I am noticing on my reread (still on D3), is that Ash keeps saying he will claim, Faust pushes him to claim, he keeps saying he will and then Ash makes it so everyone else claims. At the end, of D3, Ash does not claim. D4, he states this was so scum would be afraid of him. But, if Ash were scum, wouldn't he also want to know all other roles and also not draw attention to what role he has? I know it has been discussed already. Just something I am noticing again.

This is true.  I knew it would make me seem super scummy.  Turns out claims weren't done anyway.

You can seek historical example of me (and other vets) stating often the best night outcome for a VT is NK because you basically saved all the PRs.  It's the mafia version of that paladin secret Noble Defender in Hearthstone.  Kinda crappy, but awesome if saving important minions.

I can see your point, but going into D4, assuming you are town, you kind of seemed like the easy mislynch. The entire council agreed that you seemed the scummiest of all players and not just for holding off for claiming. I don't buy the NK argument.

Given you are scum, I don't care.

Put yourself in VT!me shoes.  You know you are one of the few non-useful roles in the game, you know there are lots of other things going on.  You also know that a VT claim will be scummy NK matter when you make it.  Holding off and drawing an NK was my best hope.

The fact that you are screaming and calling me scum makes me think that you are desperate scum Ash at this point. I am not 100% certain that you are scum. But, I am really starting to think you are. If you were town, I think you would do more to help this game right now. You even said earlier you had a town read on me D4 after that long argument about the whole LD. And, suddenly with Faust tunneling WW and I so hard, you change your mind. How convenient. You are siding with the same player you had a super scum reading D3.

[Witherweaver]

I cannot believe that town!Ash does not know I'm town here.  This would be horribly inconsistent with everything I know so far.

[ashersky]

I cannot believe that town!Ash does not know I'm town here.  This would be horribly inconsistent with everything I know so far.

Does anyone know town!ww?  Seriously.

[ashersky]

I didn't play HoC and that's your only town game ever.

[Hydrad]

So now does that mean the chance of being town again is finally here? or is he just cursed to a 90% scum game rate

[Hydrad]

Also I'm considering a WW/BA lynch just because we arn't 100% sure if scum is loved or not. if thats the case lynching WW/BA removes all doubt of what the teams are. But lets say we lynch asher and hes town but PPS/arch is scum then we are still in the same situation as before.

[Beyond Awesome]

Dunno.

Taken, destroyed, who knows?  We don't know if they were stolen or destroyed, right?

I mean, if you get half+1 to believe you, you're all set anyway.  Just stating my opinion.

Lynching me is a possibility.  You'll lose the Mentalist, though.

I'm out for the night, back on tomorrow.

Someone brought up a point about whether or not Ash could control the Mentalist after XP died. Ash says he is not the Advisor but controls who to send the Mentalist to since XP died. Here Ash is saying we will lose the Mentalist if he is lynched. However, earlier Ash mentions that he can choose to send the Mentalist anywhere he wants during the day through his QT. The way he made it sound, he does this before turning night, so I would think Ash could send the Mentalist out to someone before he is lynched.

Just another observation I made. Not sure what to make of it though. Is Ash lying there, misrepresenting info, making stuff up, or actually telling the truth. What about the earlier comment of being able to send the Mentalist to someone of his choosing during the day?

[Beyond Awesome]

So now does that mean the chance of being town again is finally here? or is he just cursed to a 90% scum game rate

Generally, he is cursed. But, I can assure you with 100% certainty that WW is town this game. Whether you choose to believe me or not is up to you.

[ashersky]

Dunno.

Taken, destroyed, who knows?  We don't know if they were stolen or destroyed, right?

I mean, if you get half+1 to believe you, you're all set anyway.  Just stating my opinion.

Lynching me is a possibility.  You'll lose the Mentalist, though.

I'm out for the night, back on tomorrow.

Someone brought up a point about whether or not Ash could control the Mentalist after XP died. Ash says he is not the Advisor but controls who to send the Mentalist to since XP died. Here Ash is saying we will lose the Mentalist if he is lynched. However, earlier Ash mentions that he can choose to send the Mentalist anywhere he wants during the day through his QT. The way he made it sound, he does this before turning night, so I would think Ash could send the Mentalist out to someone before he is lynched.

Just another observation I made. Not sure what to make of it though. Is Ash lying there, misrepresenting info, making stuff up, or actually telling the truth. What about the earlier comment of being able to send the Mentalist to someone of his choosing during the day?

I was threatening town with not sending the Mentalist anywhere and just taking him to the grave with me.

I had to send him during the day.  I did so, as arch has confirmed.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also I'm considering a WW/BA lynch just because we arn't 100% sure if scum is loved or not. if thats the case lynching WW/BA removes all doubt of what the teams are. But lets say we lynch asher and hes town but PPS/arch is scum then we are still in the same situation as before.

And, if Ash is loved, it's game over. Honestly, if there were a way for one of us to get killed right now before night takes place, I would be all for it. WW talked about being mod killed, but apparently that can't happen. If there was a day vig, I seriously would not mind someone killing me right now to prove WW is town.

[Beyond Awesome]

Dunno.

Taken, destroyed, who knows?  We don't know if they were stolen or destroyed, right?

I mean, if you get half+1 to believe you, you're all set anyway.  Just stating my opinion.

Lynching me is a possibility.  You'll lose the Mentalist, though.

I'm out for the night, back on tomorrow.

Someone brought up a point about whether or not Ash could control the Mentalist after XP died. Ash says he is not the Advisor but controls who to send the Mentalist to since XP died. Here Ash is saying we will lose the Mentalist if he is lynched. However, earlier Ash mentions that he can choose to send the Mentalist anywhere he wants during the day through his QT. The way he made it sound, he does this before turning night, so I would think Ash could send the Mentalist out to someone before he is lynched.

Just another observation I made. Not sure what to make of it though. Is Ash lying there, misrepresenting info, making stuff up, or actually telling the truth. What about the earlier comment of being able to send the Mentalist to someone of his choosing during the day?

I was threatening town with not sending the Mentalist anywhere and just taking him to the grave with me.

I had to send him during the day.  I did so, as arch has confirmed.

If you are town though why send the Mentalist to the grave with you. That sounds like a shallow thing to do, especially for someone who claims they don't mind getting lynched and want to win no matter what. Arch could be your partner for all I know.

[ashersky]

dayvig: BA

[Beyond Awesome]

dayvig: BA

If this is for real, I am all for that.

[ashersky]

Dunno.

Taken, destroyed, who knows?  We don't know if they were stolen or destroyed, right?

I mean, if you get half+1 to believe you, you're all set anyway.  Just stating my opinion.

Lynching me is a possibility.  You'll lose the Mentalist, though.

I'm out for the night, back on tomorrow.

Someone brought up a point about whether or not Ash could control the Mentalist after XP died. Ash says he is not the Advisor but controls who to send the Mentalist to since XP died. Here Ash is saying we will lose the Mentalist if he is lynched. However, earlier Ash mentions that he can choose to send the Mentalist anywhere he wants during the day through his QT. The way he made it sound, he does this before turning night, so I would think Ash could send the Mentalist out to someone before he is lynched.

Just another observation I made. Not sure what to make of it though. Is Ash lying there, misrepresenting info, making stuff up, or actually telling the truth. What about the earlier comment of being able to send the Mentalist to someone of his choosing during the day?

I was threatening town with not sending the Mentalist anywhere and just taking him to the grave with me.

I had to send him during the day.  I did so, as arch has confirmed.

If you are town though why send the Mentalist to the grave with you. That sounds like a shallow thing to do, especially for someone who claims they don't mind getting lynched and want to win no matter what. Arch could be your partner for all I know.

Threatening to do something and actually doing something are two different things.  I have an unfortunate history of being mislynched in my sleep due to time zones and Yuma being mean.

[ashersky]

dayvig: BA

If this is for real, I am all for that.

If that was for, I would have done it already.

[Beyond Awesome]

dayvig: BA

If this is for real, I am all for that.

If that was for, I would have done it already.

That sucks. I really do wish someone could just day kill me right now so that there would be no doubt that WW is town.

[Beyond Awesome]

Something happened to me N1 for which non of the existing claimed roles offer an explanation. For that reason, I am rather sure that ashersky, as the only unclaimed role, is town.

Ash says this wasn't him. Was this the LD or Grim Reaper that visited you N1 Faust? Sorry, if I missed where you state what it is.

[Beyond Awesome]

dayvig: BA

If this is for real, I am all for that.

If that was for, I would have done it already.

That sucks. I really do wish someone could just day kill me right now so that there would be no doubt that WW is town.

Never mind, I see where you state it was the Grim Reaper. My bad, I am still in the process of my reread.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, so here is my reread of various players. These are just Days 1-3. I have not reread Day 4. Sorry for taking so many days to write this up. I took a lot of pauses between reading and also being involved with this game, plus life. But, here is what I wrote up.

Ash
D1: Ash opens up the game rolling his dice. He does not explain to people any strategy or anything. He just launches right in. Slight scum points here because he played the previous dice game. Also, after PPS claims to be stolen from he claims town points for PPS for having been stolen, but also at the same time says it could be a scum plot to make PPS look more townie. Not sure what to make of that interaction. He also is trying to draw attention and claims he wants to lynch mail-mi for refusing to roll so that he can't use his power on D2, afraid that mail-mi can become super powered scum. Slight scum points on Ash for that. Then, he votes for lio, lio asks why, and Ash makes a snarky comment about partner coaching on post 542. Scum points for that, especially because I think it is probable both are partners. Then, we have Ash hammering Volt which is null for me.

D2:I bring up my stolen dice, roll a 5 and Ash says I am scum and votes for me to open the day. I feel like this is Ash setting me up to be mislynched D2 here. Then, we have lots of town posts, XP, Ichi, Faust, Hydrad, WW, myself but Ash is gone, lio is sort of posting, and PPS is sort of posting more than lio and Ash. So, honestly, the three usual suspects just look scummy here with Ash coming out on top. Also, PPS, Ash, and Lio suspect each other more on D2 just like they did on D1. One of them is surely town and two of them have to be scum. Then Ash brings up the thing about sending a message to the mods apologizing to Volt before the flipped happened. Why would Ash need to apologize to Volt unless Ash was Volts partner?Then, Ash claims Hydrad is scum for using the term "beastmaster" and claims it was a scum slip. More scum points to Ash there for getting all worked up over that. Ash then tries to make a point that said role must be a role and not factional.

Later on though Ash claims to have a townish read on me and townish read on yuma. He also does not seem to be pushing for any mislynches. So, town points there. He also doesn't seem to have any crazy theories or ideas. So, more town points there. Then, I have reached post 1564 where I give my read of Ash. And, overall, his actions when reading that read I did on D2 makes Ash more town-like. I suggest people read my D2 read on 1564. The thing that makes me see Ash as town is that he is not really pushing for mislynches....I think. It seems like he is trying to figure things out. Also, after the e hammer, lio says we should not be hammering so quickly to which Ash replies OMFG, lio is scum we need to lynch him tomorrow. So, more scum points there for Ash.

D3: Ash gets visited by XPs NPC. XP is dead. Ash asks does anyone want to guess what the monster does. More scum points there. Then, Ash votes PPS because Ash says XP was confirmed town to him because the Mentalist visited him. Well, isn't funny though that the night XP dies is the night the Mentalist visits Ash. Hmm.... Although, PPS could have been scum and killed XP. Ash now decides who the Mentalist visits. He also says he has stuff he wants to claim. Ash then makes a strange argument about Faust knowing XP was town and stuff like that and trying to claim Faust is scum for this reason. Interesting. Not sure what to make of it.

PPS
D1: He immediately claims an anti-town player. In retrospect, I see this as scum PPS trying to look townie but saying straight up he has this anti-town power, but he won't ever use it. As scum or town, I can see PPS going either way. So, actually him coming straight up and admitting this is null. We later learn his role name is the Swindler, and he also claims using his power on town is detrimental, but not so for scum. On D2, I feel like PPS contradicts himself here when he claims and explains how his power works because just using at all period is detrimental for town even if he does play it on scum, unless he somehow did not explain his claim correctly. So, huge scum points here.

Later on, he learns his dice were swiped and then he goes ahead and rolls almost everything claiming he rolled ahead without realizing he got stolen from. Again, more scum points here for rolling ahead. However, town points for having been stolen from on D1. I think it unlikely that scum would have stolen from themselves on D1, but you never know. That would actually be the smart thing for scum to do though. Also, PPS later says some weird stuff about how he thinks he was targeted by a bunch of players N0 because of his power. I mean, come on, why would anyone know what his power is on N0. So, scum points for saying weird stuff that makes no sense.

However, his later D1 postings seem pretty townie. But, then, he randomly votes lio after Ash calls him scum for being too calm and collected. So, makes me think maybe Ash and PPS are the scum team. Slight scum points for the vote there. Although, he makes a posts about playing pro-town even if he is scum, and we know he has a scum power (only player to have a confirmed scum power). So, maybe he has a bad power is scum and trying to play it off as town.

D2:PPS says he leans strong town on yuma/e, so town points there. Starting to seem more townie. He is fairly involved D2. He also really wants to lynch Ash, so town points there, I think... Ash then brings up a point about PPS not suspecting Volt all day but then putting him at L-1. Ash makes a good point there. So, slight scum points to PPS there. Then, Ash accuses Hydrad for being scum for saying beastmaster. PPS says he says a town read on Hydard but that Ash's vote is valid. That post sounds pretty scummy to me. Then, PPS comes to my rescue when people are voting me up especially after claiming my role. PPS says that his role puts an 8-sided die into someone's supply and coincides with my ability. I was originally going to award town points and then I realized that if he were scum he would know I were telling the truth and used this opportunity to make a fake claim. I think this is exactly what happened here. His ability makes zero sense at all. And, his role name is Swindler for crying out loud.

Then, PPS fully claims and this is where the lie really falls apart. He says that he gives a 12-sided die to one player, but the next player to receive dice gets an 8-sided and their rolls alternate between 8-sided and 12-sided. If they gained an 8-sided, wouldn't only die roll up to 8? Man, what PPS said makes zero sense.  Then, after e is lynched PPS says the odds of e being town are low because of how quickly he was lynched and then he says town can afford to lose a player. So, scum points there.

D3: We find out chairs sent the dice vendor to PPS. PPS thinks chairs must be town for posting he did that, but then PPS thinks chairs is scum. If PPS was certain earlier that chairs was town, why push for the lynch? PPS states he thinks that Ash can't be the Advisor because that is a town-role. Good point there. Says he will claim, makes excuses to not claim, makes everyone else claim instead. Doesn't claim at the end of D3. Sounds like scum fishing for all roles.  PPS then votes Ash saying that Ash is trying to paint anyone that is town as scum such as Faust. Slight town points for PPS there.

PPS saying he is game to lynch chairs, but is worried that chairs is actually town because he can't see chairs scum slipping like that. I think PPS was actually giving chairs the benefit of the doubt there. Or is scum and knows chair will flip town and so wants to hedge his bets. Slight town though for that, imo.

lio
D1: Not much really. He pretty such states facts everyone could know. He doesn't seem to do anything to really draw attention one way or the other. He isn't lurking, but his posts don't seem to contribute. I think this is a bit reserved for town to do, especially during RVS. So, scum points there. I guess what I find most scummy about lio is that he does not push for any votes or lynches. Sure, he votes, but he is not very vocal about things. Very reserved, very cautious play style. Also, later on lio asks why is Ash voting for him and Ash says that he is coaching, and it kind of actually seems like a scum team vote to me. But, then he analyzes the wagon and sounds pretty townie and Ash claims he is too calm and collected for scum. So, town points for lio there. Scum points for Ash. Maybe this is Ash bussing his partner though. He also does start to sound a little more townie as the day winds down. He also gives him good reads. Town points for that. Also on posts 643 he brings up Ash and PPS acting strange. He has a point there. Of all the players, Ash and PPS were acting strange. Lots of back and forth stuff between Ash, PPS, and Lio. So, I am almost certain two of these three are scum. Did mail-mi/Arch somehow go by unnoticed and is actually scum that blended in?

D2: More back and forth stuff between lio, Ash, and PPS. Very confusing. Hard to tell who is on whose side. He also provides some reads again which seems towny. He also says Faust is definite town, but he doesn't really vote or cast suspicion on anyone except maybe PPS it seems and maybe a little bit of Ash. I claim and lio says he thinks I am telling the truth about my role but players get roles independent of alignment. I think this is scum trying to make town abilities sound scummy. Also, lio really has a thing about trying to push a PPS lynch. So, either lio is scum trying to push a mislynch or he is super bussing his partner.

D3: Gave dice to Ichi D2 and now Faust D3. Null for that. It could be town giving to who he thinks is town or he could be scum trying to get town cred. He is sort of against other players claiming and he is towards the bottom of Fausts list. So, slight town points there. lio saying massclaim makes no sense. Hmm...I guess that's null.

mail-mi/Arch
D1: Comes out and says it is best for him to not roll because of his power. Now, that we know what his power is, I find this action townie. He also votes for Volt before anyone else because Ichi is getting heat for his low roll while Volt is not. Slight town points for that, but the vote is early enough I can see scum doing that for town points later on. He is VLA most of the time and on D2, he / outs. So, we don't have much to work from the first couple of days.

D3: Arch replaces mail-mi. His posts seem townie. Not too much to say though. Both mail-mi and Arch are VLA a lot.


So, based on all this, here are my thoughts.
1. Ash-Almost certainly scum and the dice destroyer to boot.
2. PPS-scummy, but more likely to be town than Ash
3. Arch-null, not enough posting because of VLA reasons
4. lio-sort of scummy because he seems to blend in most of the time. Although, he does have his townie moments.

So, I think Ash is scum and that he might be permanently loved. But, god, everyone is so scummy here.

Vote: Ash

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, a heads up. I will be VLA most/all of Saturday.

[faust]

If WW/BA are not lying, I think scum is in arch/lio/hydrad.  I think it is very unlikely Faust/PPS are scum.

But WW/BA are lying.  If we are going to lose to this fake claim, all of you should be ridiculously embarrassed and ashamed.  I'd much rather die right than survive wrong.  If outing was allowed, I absolutely would at this point.

There are too many inconsistencies, and too many statements they just want you to believe, for this to be just accepted at face value.  Why any of you continue to give them IC status is beyond me.

Those of you blindly following like sheep deserve the loss.  Unfortunately, that means all town gets a loss on their record, and this was a winnable game for town before this.

GG WW/BA.

+10000

[faust]

Okay, so let's see whose plays here make sense as scum:

ash: Trying to push a lynch when it's pretty clear that it won't go through? Claiming to have been visited by the Love Doctor and having done strange things that could easily be viewed as scummy for no reason? I think if he really was scum, he would have somehow tried to get PPS lynched by now. Especially if he's loved. And even if PPS is his partner. Also, how is the VT claim scummy again? I think scum would have preferred a fake claim. If scum!ash is just going to claim VT, why did he refuse to claim on D3?

PPS: His D1 play seriously makes no sense at all for scum. It's not grabbing towncred to claim an anti-town role. Also, do you think he was indeed targeted by "the dice destroyer" N0? Because that would kinda imply that he's not that role himself. Which means his partner has it, which means his partner has to be ash. And ash's not scum. Add in the way he claimed today - what reason would scum possibly have to make a full turnaround on how their role works? Add in that his posts when he first claims imply that his role actually works the way it does (he says, IIRC, that his role gives out "1d12". In the OP, it's stated that 1d12 means a random number between 1 and 12).

liopoil: Used his power in a very pro-town way so far. He is super hardcore tunneling PPS, which could be an epic bus (unlikely). If it's not, then that implies that he's not partners with PPS, which means his partner has to be ash, and ash is town.

Arch: Actually the one whose play fits a scum narrative best, lurking, sheeping claimed Masons, not providing much content of his own. But there is no partner for him, so I just have to assume he's anti-town town.

[faust]

I cannot believe that town!Ash does not know I'm town here.  This would be horribly inconsistent with everything I know so far.

This is ridiculous.

[faust]

So now does that mean the chance of being town again is finally here? or is he just cursed to a 90% scum game rate

WW's chance of being scum (pre-game) is the same as any other player's.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, so let's see whose plays here make sense as scum:

ash: Trying to push a lynch when it's pretty clear that it won't go through? Claiming to have been visited by the Love Doctor and having done strange things that could easily be viewed as scummy for no reason? I think if he really was scum, he would have somehow tried to get PPS lynched by now. Especially if he's loved. And even if PPS is his partner. Also, how is the VT claim scummy again? I think scum would have preferred a fake claim. If scum!ash is just going to claim VT, why did he refuse to claim on D3?

PPS: His D1 play seriously makes no sense at all for scum. It's not grabbing towncred to claim an anti-town role. Also, do you think he was indeed targeted by "the dice destroyer" N0? Because that would kinda imply that he's not that role himself. Which means his partner has it, which means his partner has to be ash. And ash's not scum. Add in the way he claimed today - what reason would scum possibly have to make a full turnaround on how their role works? Add in that his posts when he first claims imply that his role actually works the way it does (he says, IIRC, that his role gives out "1d12". In the OP, it's stated that 1d12 means a random number between 1 and 12).

liopoil: Used his power in a very pro-town way so far. He is super hardcore tunneling PPS, which could be an epic bus (unlikely). If it's not, then that implies that he's not partners with PPS, which means his partner has to be ash, and ash is town.

Arch: Actually the one whose play fits a scum narrative best, lurking, sheeping claimed Masons, not providing much content of his own. But there is no partner for him, so I just have to assume he's anti-town town.

You make a valid point about Arch, but I also wondering if that is because both he and mail-mi have been VLA the majority most of this game. Nonetheless, the lack content from him does make me a bit worried about him. He is also VLA right now through Saturday, I think. So, maybe it is just difficult for him to contribute to the game. I don't know.

[faust]

Okay, so let's see whose plays here make sense as scum:

ash: Trying to push a lynch when it's pretty clear that it won't go through? Claiming to have been visited by the Love Doctor and having done strange things that could easily be viewed as scummy for no reason? I think if he really was scum, he would have somehow tried to get PPS lynched by now. Especially if he's loved. And even if PPS is his partner. Also, how is the VT claim scummy again? I think scum would have preferred a fake claim. If scum!ash is just going to claim VT, why did he refuse to claim on D3?

PPS: His D1 play seriously makes no sense at all for scum. It's not grabbing towncred to claim an anti-town role. Also, do you think he was indeed targeted by "the dice destroyer" N0? Because that would kinda imply that he's not that role himself. Which means his partner has it, which means his partner has to be ash. And ash's not scum. Add in the way he claimed today - what reason would scum possibly have to make a full turnaround on how their role works? Add in that his posts when he first claims imply that his role actually works the way it does (he says, IIRC, that his role gives out "1d12". In the OP, it's stated that 1d12 means a random number between 1 and 12).

liopoil: Used his power in a very pro-town way so far. He is super hardcore tunneling PPS, which could be an epic bus (unlikely). If it's not, then that implies that he's not partners with PPS, which means his partner has to be ash, and ash is town.

Arch: Actually the one whose play fits a scum narrative best, lurking, sheeping claimed Masons, not providing much content of his own. But there is no partner for him, so I just have to assume he's anti-town town.

You make a valid point about Arch, but I also wondering if that is because both he and mail-mi have been VLA the majority most of this game. Nonetheless, the lack content from him does make me a bit worried about him. He is also VLA right now through Saturday, I think. So, maybe it is just difficult for him to contribute to the game. I don't know.

Maybe you want to stop selectively choosing information to respond to and instead answer how you think ash's and PPS' actions make sense as scum?

[faust]

Vote: BA

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, so let's see whose plays here make sense as scum:

ash: Trying to push a lynch when it's pretty clear that it won't go through? Claiming to have been visited by the Love Doctor and having done strange things that could easily be viewed as scummy for no reason? I think if he really was scum, he would have somehow tried to get PPS lynched by now. Especially if he's loved. And even if PPS is his partner. Also, how is the VT claim scummy again? I think scum would have preferred a fake claim. If scum!ash is just going to claim VT, why did he refuse to claim on D3?

PPS: His D1 play seriously makes no sense at all for scum. It's not grabbing towncred to claim an anti-town role. Also, do you think he was indeed targeted by "the dice destroyer" N0? Because that would kinda imply that he's not that role himself. Which means his partner has it, which means his partner has to be ash. And ash's not scum. Add in the way he claimed today - what reason would scum possibly have to make a full turnaround on how their role works? Add in that his posts when he first claims imply that his role actually works the way it does (he says, IIRC, that his role gives out "1d12". In the OP, it's stated that 1d12 means a random number between 1 and 12).

liopoil: Used his power in a very pro-town way so far. He is super hardcore tunneling PPS, which could be an epic bus (unlikely). If it's not, then that implies that he's not partners with PPS, which means his partner has to be ash, and ash is town.

Arch: Actually the one whose play fits a scum narrative best, lurking, sheeping claimed Masons, not providing much content of his own. But there is no partner for him, so I just have to assume he's anti-town town.

You make a valid point about Arch, but I also wondering if that is because both he and mail-mi have been VLA the majority most of this game. Nonetheless, the lack content from him does make me a bit worried about him. He is also VLA right now through Saturday, I think. So, maybe it is just difficult for him to contribute to the game. I don't know.

Maybe you want to stop selectively choosing information to respond to and instead answer how you think ash's and PPS' actions make sense as scum?

I wrote a massive reread of days 1-3 on the previous page addressing why I find their actions scummy.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, so let's see whose plays here make sense as scum:

ash: Trying to push a lynch when it's pretty clear that it won't go through? Claiming to have been visited by the Love Doctor and having done strange things that could easily be viewed as scummy for no reason? I think if he really was scum, he would have somehow tried to get PPS lynched by now. Especially if he's loved. And even if PPS is his partner. Also, how is the VT claim scummy again? I think scum would have preferred a fake claim. If scum!ash is just going to claim VT, why did he refuse to claim on D3?

PPS: His D1 play seriously makes no sense at all for scum. It's not grabbing towncred to claim an anti-town role. Also, do you think he was indeed targeted by "the dice destroyer" N0? Because that would kinda imply that he's not that role himself. Which means his partner has it, which means his partner has to be ash. And ash's not scum. Add in the way he claimed today - what reason would scum possibly have to make a full turnaround on how their role works? Add in that his posts when he first claims imply that his role actually works the way it does (he says, IIRC, that his role gives out "1d12". In the OP, it's stated that 1d12 means a random number between 1 and 12).

liopoil: Used his power in a very pro-town way so far. He is super hardcore tunneling PPS, which could be an epic bus (unlikely). If it's not, then that implies that he's not partners with PPS, which means his partner has to be ash, and ash is town.

Arch: Actually the one whose play fits a scum narrative best, lurking, sheeping claimed Masons, not providing much content of his own. But there is no partner for him, so I just have to assume he's anti-town town.

You make a valid point about Arch, but I also wondering if that is because both he and mail-mi have been VLA the majority most of this game. Nonetheless, the lack content from him does make me a bit worried about him. He is also VLA right now through Saturday, I think. So, maybe it is just difficult for him to contribute to the game. I don't know.

Maybe you want to stop selectively choosing information to respond to and instead answer how you think ash's and PPS' actions make sense as scum?

Also Faust, aren't you selectively choosing info. You only seem to be looking for things that make these players seem town to you. You don't seem to be looking at what could potentially make them out to be scum. Or, if their actions are scummy, you somehow make those actions out to be townie.

By the same token, you didn't even offer an argument for me being scum (okay, you have before, but I bring this point up because I posted my reads on the previous page and you are accusing me of not addressing what I found scummy about Ash and PPS).

Also, on my reads, you will notice where I give town points and scum points to actions players took. I was not deciding that any one player is scum no matter what. I analyzed each players actions, looked at context, and thought about things. I don't really see you thinking about things. All I see is someone who has made up his mind and will not look at any other evidence whatsoever when it comes to other players.

To be honest, when I started my reads, I did not include you because I began rereading around the start of D4. At the time, I decided you were town. Later on, I began to have my doubts, but I was already fairly well on my way through my rereads too go back and you. Now, I'm not sure that I will have enough time to do a full reread of you before D5, but you have done an excellent job of tunneling town players. First Ichi on D1, then yuma/e on D2 which led to a mislynch, you also tunneled me on D2 until Ichi told you to stop. And, you are doing it again on D4.

[ashersky]

Huge scumslip in BA's final paragraph there.

vote: BA

[faust]

I wrote a massive reread of days 1-3 on the previous page addressing why I find their actions scummy.

So who is the scum team? Show me two players and explain how they fit together as scum. Also, respond to me objections.

[faust]

This post is basically contentless, or even worse, forced content. I can compile a list of scummy actions like this for any player in the game.

[Jimmmmm]

Vote Count 4.5

ashersky (3): Witherweaver, pingpongsam, Beyond Awesome
pingpongsam (2): liopoil, Archetype
no lynch (1): Hydrad
Beyond Awesome (2): faust, ashersky

not voting (0)

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Evening begins on July 26 at 11am forum time.
Day 4 ends on July 28 at 11am forum time.

Target: 4
Score: 5

[faust]

This will be the first time we ever experience the game going to evening. I wonder if something special will happen.

[faust]

Looking at the vote count: I think we can exclude a scum team with two of Arch/lio/Hydrad/me, where one scum player is loved.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: BA

[pingpongsam]

I think BA should have stayed quiet, I was heretofore discontentedly resigned the magical masons could not be lynched today, but that last interchange rekindled my belief that f.ds cannot be so blind.

[liopoil]

I think BA should have stayed quiet, I was heretofore discontentedly resigned the magical masons could not be lynched today, but that last interchange rekindled my belief that f.ds cannot be so blind.

Am I missing something in that last interchange? I don't see it.

[pingpongsam]

It's mostly the attitude of "see how flexible I have been where you are not"? BA is demonstrably just as committed to a course of action as Faust. It's one thing to be committed, it's entirely another to be disingenuous about it.

[Witherweaver]

So I've learned that Masons are a negative utility role and you're better off lying about it.

[Witherweaver]

I wrote a massive reread of days 1-3 on the previous page addressing why I find their actions scummy.

So who is the scum team? Show me two players and explain how they fit together as scum. Also, respond to me objections.

I'm sure scum teams always try to make it clear who their partners are so that people can fit everything together.

[Witherweaver]

Huge scumslip in BA's final paragraph there.

vote: BA

Scumslip (n): An entirely made-up word by Ashersky that can be thrown around as a cover for voting against someone and pushing for a lynch whenever it might be convenient.

[Witherweaver]

I cannot believe that town!Ash does not know I'm town here.  This would be horribly inconsistent with everything I know so far.

This is ridiculous.

I know, Ash is ridiculous.  So are you, by the way.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, so let's see whose plays here make sense as scum:

ash: Trying to push a lynch when it's pretty clear that it won't go through? Claiming to have been visited by the Love Doctor and having done strange things that could easily be viewed as scummy for no reason? I think if he really was scum, he would have somehow tried to get PPS lynched by now. Especially if he's loved. And even if PPS is his partner. Also, how is the VT claim scummy again? I think scum would have preferred a fake claim. If scum!ash is just going to claim VT, why did he refuse to claim on D3?

PPS: His D1 play seriously makes no sense at all for scum. It's not grabbing towncred to claim an anti-town role. Also, do you think he was indeed targeted by "the dice destroyer" N0? Because that would kinda imply that he's not that role himself. Which means his partner has it, which means his partner has to be ash. And ash's not scum. Add in the way he claimed today - what reason would scum possibly have to make a full turnaround on how their role works? Add in that his posts when he first claims imply that his role actually works the way it does (he says, IIRC, that his role gives out "1d12". In the OP, it's stated that 1d12 means a random number between 1 and 12).

liopoil: Used his power in a very pro-town way so far. He is super hardcore tunneling PPS, which could be an epic bus (unlikely). If it's not, then that implies that he's not partners with PPS, which means his partner has to be ash, and ash is town.

Arch: Actually the one whose play fits a scum narrative best, lurking, sheeping claimed Masons, not providing much content of his own. But there is no partner for him, so I just have to assume he's anti-town town.

This seems townie from Faust. 

What is said about PPS makes some sense, though I can't see why being hit by the dice destroyer can't be a fake claim for cred.  Or even a real claim. 

Points on Archetype and Lio make sense as well.

Of course, each statement comes back to the "Ash can't be scum" thing, which is

Trying to push a lynch when it's pretty clear that it won't go through?

Does this all the time

Claiming to have been visited by the Love Doctor and having done strange things that could easily be viewed as scummy for no reason?

If it doesn't make sense to do this as scum and therefore he must be town because of these things, doesn't it make sense to do it as scum?

I think if he really was scum, he would have somehow tried to get PPS lynched by now. Especially if he's loved. And even if PPS is his partner.

If he's Loved, yes.  If not, if PPS is lynched as Town Ash is the next choice, so it could be dangerous here.  If PPS is his partner, I'm not so sure.. Ash isn't the biggest busser around. 

Also, how is the VT claim scummy again? I think scum would have preferred a fake claim. If scum!ash is just going to claim VT, why did he refuse to claim on D3?

Okay, VT claim is not scummy.. only other unconfirmed role is you if we believe PPS, so you must be the dice destroyer.  Is that better? 

Ash provided a theory argument for why he didn't claim on D3, a theory argument that he would realize as town or scum, and in particular as scum he can go back and say "look at how pro town I was!"  The argument itself isn't even good.  After everyone else claims marginal roles at best, Ash things scum are going to see his no claim and confirm he somehow has the uberest town role possible and kill him, when he's clearly going to get a lot of heat from his play?  I do not buy this at all.

[Witherweaver]

This post is basically contentless, or even worse, forced content. I can compile a list of scummy actions like this for any player in the game.

This post is basically contentless, or even worse, backhanded dismissal and a way to blanketly disregard anyone else's reads.

[Beyond Awesome]

Huge scumslip in BA's final paragraph there.

vote: BA

Not a scum slip. I had gone into D4 planning on doing a reread. When I began it, Faust was not on my lists of suspects. It was only until I was further along into my read that I started to become really suspicious of him. By that time I did not feel like going back and including him but to instead do a separate read of him when I finished my current read. Also, I was not sure if I included him if I would have enough time to get my reads out D4 which I felt was important.

[Beyond Awesome]

This post is basically contentless, or even worse, forced content. I can compile a list of scummy actions like this for any player in the game.

This post is outright rude. I spent tons and tons of hours working on my reads. I put a lot of thought and effort into it. All you are doing is treating me like crap. Every action I do is scummy no matter what to you. It does not matter how much I try to contribute to this game, you have decided I am scum so therefore anything I put out is "contentless." Well, let me tell you something, you not considering anyone else to be scum is contentless. You are adding nothing to the game. Even worse, if you are town, you are handing this game to scum. Why? Because if either WW's or my mislynch goes through then if you are town, scum is surely going to push your mislynch with the argument I made about you tunneling town players. Essentially, I fully expect scum to tunnel you D5 and succeed at this point.

[Beyond Awesome]

I wrote a massive reread of days 1-3 on the previous page addressing why I find their actions scummy.

So who is the scum team? Show me two players and explain how they fit together as scum. Also, respond to me objections.

At this point, I have no idea who the scum team is because this day has been derailed so badly. On my reads, I explain that Ash is the scummiest. Arch is null to me because both he mail-mi have been VLA. I feel for the most part Lio's posts don't contribute much to the game, so I can see him blending in as scum. And, I just see what PPS to do weird and scummy. Also, his claim is super crazy sounding. So, who is the scum team? How would I know? Hopefully, if we catch scum today, we will be able to figure out who the partner is. But, I can see any of these players paired up with each other, to be honest. I apologize that I am not like you Faust who just decides who the scum team is while completing ignoring the possibility other players can be scum as well.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: ashersky

[Jimmmmm]

The Ogre has attacked liopoil and Beyond Awesome!
Score: 5

[Witherweaver]

Does anything show up in your QTs from attacks?  The score isn't changing, is it?

[liopoil]

Nothing happened to me.

[Witherweaver]

Maybe it affects tomorrow rolls?

[pingpongsam]

Everybody played stored dies? I think that might be the deal. Assume it causes a reroll.

[pingpongsam]

Who did it attack earlier?

 Has attacked everyone who played?

[pingpongsam]

Just wondering if who the ogre attacks is an alignment tell.

[Beyond Awesome]

Did nothing to me either. I guess it either affects stored dice or maybe something with tomorrow's attack. But, that would seem kind of weird.

[Beyond Awesome]

Who did it attack earlier?

 Has attacked everyone who played?

I believe Faust played a 1, I think, if I remember correctly.

[liopoil]

Everybody played stored dies? I think that might be the deal. Assume it causes a reroll.

I rolled dice, and it attacked me, but nothing happened. Maybe because my 8 wouldn't do anything anyway. The other two players who were attacked played a stored 2 (BA and hydrad). Maybe it hurts us tomorrow, we'll see.

[Beyond Awesome]

Everybody played stored dies? I think that might be the deal. Assume it causes a reroll.

Actually, I think lio rolled, is that true?

PPE: nevermind

[Witherweaver]

Just wondering if who the ogre attacks is an alignment tell.

If scum has control, it's at best a WIFOM thing.  It's attacked three people.. would they put one of them in there?  We could go around with that question I think.

[Beyond Awesome]

Did nothing to me either. I guess it either affects stored dice or maybe something with tomorrow's attack. But, that would seem kind of weird.

I meant to say, I guess it affects dice that weren't stored. Seems to have nothing to lio though, maybe because his roll didn't count anyway.

[Witherweaver]

BA, why didn't you ever investigate Hydrad to check if his sub-7 rolls were due to different dice?  Or did you?  Who were your investigation targets?

[Beyond Awesome]

BA, why didn't you ever investigate Hydrad to check if his sub-7 rolls were due to different dice?  Or did you?  Who were your investigation targets?

I never investigated Hydrad because he has been one of my strongest town reads all game. My hope was that hopefully my ability would allow me to cop scum. Although, I have thought of several times of investigating Hydrad, I felt the info would be useless to town even if he could only roll up to 7.

My targets were
N0:yuma/e
N1: Mail-Mi/Arch
N2: Chairs
N3: Lio

[ashersky]

Huge scumslip in BA's final paragraph there.

vote: BA

Not a scum slip. I had gone into D4 planning on doing a reread. When I began it, Faust was not on my lists of suspects. It was only until I was further along into my read that I started to become really suspicious of him. By that time I did not feel like going back and including him but to instead do a separate read of him when I finished my current read. Also, I was not sure if I included him if I would have enough time to get my reads out D4 which I felt was important.

That wasn't what I meant.  You said you'd do it on D5.  You know who knows they'll survive to the next day AFTER supposedly becoming a mason?  Lying scum.

[Witherweaver]

Huge scumslip in BA's final paragraph there.

vote: BA

Not a scum slip. I had gone into D4 planning on doing a reread. When I began it, Faust was not on my lists of suspects. It was only until I was further along into my read that I started to become really suspicious of him. By that time I did not feel like going back and including him but to instead do a separate read of him when I finished my current read. Also, I was not sure if I included him if I would have enough time to get my reads out D4 which I felt was important.

That wasn't what I meant.  You said you'd do it on D5.  You know who knows they'll survive to the next day AFTER supposedly becoming a mason?  Lying scum.

killing one of us at night makes the other an IC.  Why do that?

[ashersky]

Huge scumslip in BA's final paragraph there.

vote: BA

Not a scum slip. I had gone into D4 planning on doing a reread. When I began it, Faust was not on my lists of suspects. It was only until I was further along into my read that I started to become really suspicious of him. By that time I did not feel like going back and including him but to instead do a separate read of him when I finished my current read. Also, I was not sure if I included him if I would have enough time to get my reads out D4 which I felt was important.

That wasn't what I meant.  You said you'd do it on D5.  You know who knows they'll survive to the next day AFTER supposedly becoming a mason?  Lying scum.

killing one of us at night makes the other an IC.  Why do that?

Over half the players have given you IC status already.

Way to answer for your partner, dude.  Should have seen if he could up with that on his own.  I doubt he was thinking that, look at the context of his post.

So scummy.

[Beyond Awesome]

Huge scumslip in BA's final paragraph there.

vote: BA

Not a scum slip. I had gone into D4 planning on doing a reread. When I began it, Faust was not on my lists of suspects. It was only until I was further along into my read that I started to become really suspicious of him. By that time I did not feel like going back and including him but to instead do a separate read of him when I finished my current read. Also, I was not sure if I included him if I would have enough time to get my reads out D4 which I felt was important.

That wasn't what I meant.  You said you'd do it on D5.  You know who knows they'll survive to the next day AFTER supposedly becoming a mason?  Lying scum.

No. I was saying I did not think I would have the read ready until D5 seeing how long it took me just to compile my other reads and those were through D4.

[ashersky]

Huge scumslip in BA's final paragraph there.

vote: BA

Not a scum slip. I had gone into D4 planning on doing a reread. When I began it, Faust was not on my lists of suspects. It was only until I was further along into my read that I started to become really suspicious of him. By that time I did not feel like going back and including him but to instead do a separate read of him when I finished my current read. Also, I was not sure if I included him if I would have enough time to get my reads out D4 which I felt was important.

That wasn't what I meant.  You said you'd do it on D5.  You know who knows they'll survive to the next day AFTER supposedly becoming a mason?  Lying scum.

No. I was saying I did not think I would have the read ready until D5 seeing how long it took me just to compile my other reads and those were through D4.

See?  A much flimsier excuse.

[Beyond Awesome]

Even in my other post that is essentially what I said. I say I don't think I will have a Faust read ready on D4. For me, it takes a long time to do a read, especially seeing how many pages this thread has become.

[Archetype]

Back from V/LA.

Okay, so let's see whose plays here make sense as scum:

ash: Trying to push a lynch when it's pretty clear that it won't go through? Claiming to have been visited by the Love Doctor and having done strange things that could easily be viewed as scummy for no reason? I think if he really was scum, he would have somehow tried to get PPS lynched by now. Especially if he's loved. And even if PPS is his partner. Also, how is the VT claim scummy again? I think scum would have preferred a fake claim. If scum!ash is just going to claim VT, why did he refuse to claim on D3?

PPS: His D1 play seriously makes no sense at all for scum. It's not grabbing towncred to claim an anti-town role. Also, do you think he was indeed targeted by "the dice destroyer" N0? Because that would kinda imply that he's not that role himself. Which means his partner has it, which means his partner has to be ash. And ash's not scum. Add in the way he claimed today - what reason would scum possibly have to make a full turnaround on how their role works? Add in that his posts when he first claims imply that his role actually works the way it does (he says, IIRC, that his role gives out "1d12". In the OP, it's stated that 1d12 means a random number between 1 and 12).

liopoil: Used his power in a very pro-town way so far. He is super hardcore tunneling PPS, which could be an epic bus (unlikely). If it's not, then that implies that he's not partners with PPS, which means his partner has to be ash, and ash is town.

Arch: Actually the one whose play fits a scum narrative best, lurking, sheeping claimed Masons, not providing much content of his own. But there is no partner for him, so I just have to assume he's anti-town town.

Oh, I'm the one who's anti-town? If you aren't scum, you're anti-town for pushing a lynch against 2 Masons.

My lynch preference:

PPS > Ash >>>> No Lynch >> liopoil >>>Faust >>>>> WW/BA


Almost everything else that has been said has been said before. We're just arguing in circles now. Ash is making ridiculous attempts to get BA/WW lynched and PPS is being scummy to the point where I find it hard for anyone to have a townread on him.

[liopoil]

faust:  BA/WW > No Lynch
WW: Ash > PPS > Faust > Arch > Lio > Hydrad
ash: BA/WW > liopoil > archetype > hydrad > PPS > Faust
Hydrad: ash/PPS > arch > lio > faust
BA: PPS > ash > Faust > Lio > Arch > Hydrad/WW
PPS: Arch > hydrad > ash/lio > No Lynch > WW/BA > Faust
lio: PPS > arch > ash > faust > ww > BA > Hydrad
arch: PPS > Ash >>>> No Lynch >> liopoil >>>Faust >>>>> WW/BA

added arch. I'll remove everyone after no lynch in people's lists:

faust:  BA/WW > No Lynch
WW: Ash > PPS > Faust > Arch > Lio > Hydrad
ash: BA/WW > liopoil > archetype > hydrad > PPS > Faust
Hydrad: ash/PPS > arch > lio > faust
BA: PPS > ash > Faust > Lio > Arch
PPS: Arch > hydrad > ash/lio > No Lynch
lio: PPS > arch > ash > No Lynch
arch: PPS > Ash > No Lynch

Some people didn't include No Lynch.

I see arch, lio and BA having pps first (I thought BA preffered ash?), Hydrad with him split with ash, and WW with pps second. That's 5.

only 2 for BA/WW, but pps seems he would go for that too.

WW has ash first, BA has ash second but I think actually prefers ash, Hydrad has ash shared in first, arch has him second and I have him third. So that is also 5... I certainly prefer a pps lynch, but if the others prefer ash I'll do that instead.

pps has arch first, I have him second, hydrad has him 3rd, ash and ww have him 4th, but they didn't include no lynch. I'll take this over an ash lynch for sure, ash and ww, would you go for an arch lynch? I am a bit concerned that pps has arch first, but that is a really easy bus to do - he hasn't been pushing it much and it doesn't look likely to happen.

But really, can we just lynch pps already?

On another note, guys, stop harassing BA/ww, even if they are scum it isn't helping, and BA/ww, stop responding to them, you are only making yourself look scummier to them, and a little bit to me.

[liopoil]

ash, faust, and pps aren't willing to vote for any of the players whose lynches might actually go through, except perhaps for archetype, so if Hydrad really wants that no lynch he can pretty much force it.

[pingpongsam]

I am fairly certain an ashersky lynch can be had.

[pingpongsam]

PPS is being scummy to the point where I find it hard for anyone to have a townread on him.

Classic ericsonian suggestion technique in effect here. How can you find it hard for other people to have a town read on someone? They can do that for themselves without your guidance.

[Witherweaver]

Huge scumslip in BA's final paragraph there.

vote: BA

Not a scum slip. I had gone into D4 planning on doing a reread. When I began it, Faust was not on my lists of suspects. It was only until I was further along into my read that I started to become really suspicious of him. By that time I did not feel like going back and including him but to instead do a separate read of him when I finished my current read. Also, I was not sure if I included him if I would have enough time to get my reads out D4 which I felt was important.

That wasn't what I meant.  You said you'd do it on D5.  You know who knows they'll survive to the next day AFTER supposedly becoming a mason?  Lying scum.

killing one of us at night makes the other an IC.  Why do that?

Over half the players have given you IC status already.

Way to answer for your partner, dude.  Should have seen if he could up with that on his own.  I doubt he was thinking that, look at the context of his post.

So scummy.

There is nothing scummy about his post.

[pingpongsam]

Answering for the guy who is perceived to be your scum partner reinforces the notion you are scum partners, so yeah, there is a distinct scumminess to that post regardless of the content.

[ashersky]

I'd lynch arch before PPS, but if he's town, we learn nothing and just lose.  Same with my mislynch, PPS mislynch, lio mislynch...if any of those are town, tomorrow is nothing.

WW/BA is both likely to hit scum and confirm a claim.

[Beyond Awesome]

Vote: Ash

[faust]

ash, faust, and pps aren't willing to vote for any of the players whose lynches might actually go through, except perhaps for archetype, so if Hydrad really wants that no lynch he can pretty much force it.

Well, you aen't willing to vote for someone who's actually scum. I'm still waiting for an actual case on PPS.

[Witherweaver]

Answering for the guy who is perceived to be your scum partner reinforces the notion you are scum partners, so yeah, there is a distinct scumminess to that post regardless of the content.

So what happened was, Ash said something whose premise wasn't sensible.  I explained why.  He called me scummy for it.

[pingpongsam]

Answering for the guy who is perceived to be your scum partner reinforces the notion you are scum partners, so yeah, there is a distinct scumminess to that post regardless of the content.

So what happened was, Ash said something whose premise wasn't sensible.  I explained why.  He called me scummy for it.

But he wasn't talking to you when he said. That you wouldn't let BA speak for himself is notable when there is suspicion you may be scum partners. Acting as if it isn't further reinforces it.

[Witherweaver]

Answering for the guy who is perceived to be your scum partner reinforces the notion you are scum partners, so yeah, there is a distinct scumminess to that post regardless of the content.

So what happened was, Ash said something whose premise wasn't sensible.  I explained why.  He called me scummy for it.

But he wasn't talking to you when he said. That you wouldn't let BA speak for himself is notable when there is suspicion you may be scum partners. Acting as if it isn't further reinforces it.

Notable how?  The premise of Ash's accusation was invalid.  This is an objective fact.  *Ash* himself should have realized this, or point out how my thinking is flawed.

There is nothing here except for the context. 

[faust]

I wrote a massive reread of days 1-3 on the previous page addressing why I find their actions scummy.

So who is the scum team? Show me two players and explain how they fit together as scum. Also, respond to me objections.

At this point, I have no idea who the scum team is because this day has been derailed so badly. On my reads, I explain that Ash is the scummiest. Arch is null to me because both he mail-mi have been VLA. I feel for the most part Lio's posts don't contribute much to the game, so I can see him blending in as scum. And, I just see what PPS to do weird and scummy. Also, his claim is super crazy sounding. So, who is the scum team? How would I know? Hopefully, if we catch scum today, we will be able to figure out who the partner is. But, I can see any of these players paired up with each other, to be honest. I apologize that I am not like you Faust who just decides who the scum team is while completing ignoring the possibility other players can be scum as well.

I have considered each possibility, and decided that al except you/WW aren't reasonable. You're just stating "people are scummy" in a game with 158 pages, where everyone has already done plenty of stuff that can be considered scummy. When looking for scum, you have to ask yourself: is it reasonable that X and Y are scum together? You completely ignore that question, because you wouldn't like the answers you'd need to give.

[faust]

This post is basically contentless, or even worse, forced content. I can compile a list of scummy actions like this for any player in the game.

This post is outright rude. I spent tons and tons of hours working on my reads. I put a lot of thought and effort into it. All you are doing is treating me like crap. Every action I do is scummy no matter what to you. It does not matter how much I try to contribute to this game, you have decided I am scum so therefore anything I put out is "contentless." Well, let me tell you something, you not considering anyone else to be scum is contentless. You are adding nothing to the game. Even worse, if you are town, you are handing this game to scum. Why? Because if either WW's or my mislynch goes through then if you are town, scum is surely going to push your mislynch with the argument I made about you tunneling town players. Essentially, I fully expect scum to tunnel you D5 and succeed at this point.

If you feel like I'm treating you like crap, I'm really sorry. No matter what alignment you are, we all just want to have fun here. These last weeks have been a bit stressful for me IRL, so maybe my tone was harsher than it should have been.

But, my posts are not contentless. I have posted my thoughts on every player on the game multiple times, and everyone can see how I've ended up on you two. Just because I don't switch my vote around like crazy and try to lynch any player just for the sake of lynching doesn't mean I haven't thought things through.

[faust]

I cannot believe that town!Ash does not know I'm town here.  This would be horribly inconsistent with everything I know so far.

This is ridiculous.

I know, Ash is ridiculous.  So are you, by the way.

There is a difference between calling posts ridiculous and calling people ridiculous. The latter is clearly beyond the civility pledge.

[faust]

I wrote a massive reread of days 1-3 on the previous page addressing why I find their actions scummy.

So who is the scum team? Show me two players and explain how they fit together as scum. Also, respond to me objections.

I'm sure scum teams always try to make it clear who their partners are so that people can fit everything together.

Of course, it's completely nonsensical to try and look for partners. Town is better off just lynching randomly, because hey, scum is not going to out themselves, right?

[faust]

Okay, VT claim is not scummy.. only other unconfirmed role is you if we believe PPS, so you must be the dice destroyer.  Is that better? 

Hey, look, you're right. Out of PPS, ash, me, I'm the only one who can plausibly be the dice destroyer. Why don't you vote for me?

[faust]

Oh, I'm the one who's anti-town? If you aren't scum, you're anti-town for pushing a lynch against 2 Masons.

Claimed Masons. I can say you're anti-town for psuhing two claimed town players as well. Why is everything WW/BA say considered the bare truth by you?

[Witherweaver]

I wrote a massive reread of days 1-3 on the previous page addressing why I find their actions scummy.

So who is the scum team? Show me two players and explain how they fit together as scum. Also, respond to me objections.

I'm sure scum teams always try to make it clear who their partners are so that people can fit everything together.

Of course, it's completely nonsensical to try and look for partners. Town is better off just lynching randomly, because hey, scum is not going to out themselves, right?

My point is it's not necessarily easy to figure out who the team is.  Especially when you don't know who the first player is.  I think Ash is most likely scum, but I don't know who his most likely partner is.

Okay, here is from my perspective.  I know that BA is town (believe me, if last night hadn't happened I'd be calling for his lynch).  I also think that the die destroyer role is unlikely to belong to the people that have claimed and have had their role confirmed in some way*.  So for me that leaves you and Ash, and I think Ash is much more likely than you are.

This isn't random at all.  It's what makes the most sense for me.. and, by the way, if I'm Town and you're Town, then I actually have more information than you do, here, because I have BA 100% confirmed.

There's no one I can rule out as Ash's partner.. not even you.  My Town reads on Hydrad and Archetype are due to their entire play, not just their interactions with Ash.  If Ash flips scum, then I can look at how everyone treated him and approached the lynch to try to find out who the partner is.  Or more importantly, how he treated other people, because there's probably more information there. 

I haven't seen anything you said that convincingly rules out anyone from being Ash's partner.. in fact in your read list before, multiple players had something like ("but then he'd have to be Ash's partner, and Ash is town"). 

*Maybe Hydrad's isn't really confirmed.  We just don't have a contradiction from what he's claimed to do.. I don't remember who he claimed to target each night... but of course that's a dangerous fake claim.  Lio's seems real as multiple people have verified to receive dice.  After the whole PPS thing I'm inclined to believe him. Archetype has played twice on a day where he didn't play the previous day, so that checks out.

PPE: 2

[Witherweaver]

Okay, VT claim is not scummy.. only other unconfirmed role is you if we believe PPS, so you must be the dice destroyer.  Is that better? 

Hey, look, you're right. Out of PPS, ash, me, I'm the only one who can plausibly be the dice destroyer. Why don't you vote for me?

Why can't Ash?

[Witherweaver]

Okay, VT claim is not scummy.. only other unconfirmed role is you if we believe PPS, so you must be the dice destroyer.  Is that better? 

Hey, look, you're right. Out of PPS, ash, me, I'm the only one who can plausibly be the dice destroyer. Why don't you vote for me?

Why can't Ash?

And, because you're putting too much effort into rereading and trying to think things through (even though you are completely wrong.)  And your actions around Day 2 or so don't seem like something scum would do.. maybe it's just because you were trying to figure out setup and "mysterious visitor" stuff, and I guess you could do that as scum as well as town, but it seemed like your agenda was much more "what's going on in this game?" instead of "Who should we get lynched?"

The only real point against you (other than my OMGUSy attitude) is that your claim as Universal Backup for Die-related Abilities was just so convenient, and there has not been two verified die losses since Yuma/e was lynched.

So if you're scum, then this is a really cavalier performance from you.

[Witherweaver]

Ash, in contrast, hasn't gone through the work of looking at interactions to PoE me and BA making more sense than anything else (which I adamantly disagree with, but that's separate).  Rather, he's jumped on me/BA later (after you and PPS showed that it might be worthwhile) and has been spending his efforts picking at things BA and I are saying and trying to find something he can grab onto and run with.  I think Ash's goal here is to keep arguing because he thinks one of us will end up looking worse than he will, so that other people may join along.  That strikes me as much scummier behavior. 

[Hydrad]

Ok I'm going to go ahead and

Vote: asher

for now.

[faust]

Ok I'm going to go ahead and

Vote: asher

for now.

No, don't do that Is this L-1 or someting?

[Hydrad]

One thing I will say Is that I'm actually wanting a lynch instead of no lynch at this point. Because if we get someone with the GR and enough to vig someone that extra person will be really helpful.

[ashersky]

If scum is loved, this is mylo, right?  If scum is not loved, we can afford one mislynch.

Is my mislynch really better than a "Mason" mislynch?  Assuming they aren't lying...confirming them is worthwhile.  Me flipping VT is a boon for scum as it does nothing for the rest of town.

Will the hydrad/arch/lio triad promise to please lynch the "masons" tomorrow, at least?


I agree we need a lynch today.  Except, at mylo, no lynch is correct.  Who else has claimed to have met the love doc?

[Hydrad]

If scum is loved, this is mylo, right?  If scum is not loved, we can afford one mislynch.

Is my mislynch really better than a "Mason" mislynch?  Assuming they aren't lying...confirming them is worthwhile.  Me flipping VT is a boon for scum as it does nothing for the rest of town.

Will the hydrad/arch/lio triad promise to please lynch the "masons" tomorrow, at least?


I agree we need a lynch today.  Except, at mylo, no lynch is correct.  Who else has claimed to have met the love doc?

Yes if I'm wrong about you I will probably have to go for WW/BA tomorrow as if you aren't scum it doesn't make sense otherwise.

[liopoil]

Will the hydrad/arch/lio triad promise to please lynch the "masons" tomorrow, at least?

I'll think about stuff when I need to think about it.

[Witherweaver]

If scum is loved, this is mylo, right?  If scum is not loved, we can afford one mislynch.

Is my mislynch really better than a "Mason" mislynch?  Assuming they aren't lying...confirming them is worthwhile.  Me flipping VT is a boon for scum as it does nothing for the rest of town.

Will the hydrad/arch/lio triad promise to please lynch the "masons" tomorrow, at least?


I agree we need a lynch today.  Except, at mylo, no lynch is correct.  Who else has claimed to have met the love doc?

Okay, if me getting mislynched was the right move for the town, then I'd be all for it.  But I don't see how it could be.

[liopoil]

Yes, ashersky is at L-1.

I am willing to hammer, but want to make sure that a pps lynch isn't preferred. faust, since it seems ash or pps will be lynched, which would you prefer, even though I know you don't like either one?

Preferred of ash/pps:

lio: pps
ash: pps
pps: ash
hydrad: ash?
BA: ash?
WW: pps?
arch: pps?
faust: ????

if faust prefers a pps lynch I think that he ought to vote for pps and we lynch pps instead.

faust, for a case on pps just read my earlier posts. I think it's all there. Recently I haven't been explaining myself as much, that is true.

[ashersky]

If scum is loved, this is mylo, right?  If scum is not loved, we can afford one mislynch.

Is my mislynch really better than a "Mason" mislynch?  Assuming they aren't lying...confirming them is worthwhile.  Me flipping VT is a boon for scum as it does nothing for the rest of town.

Will the hydrad/arch/lio triad promise to please lynch the "masons" tomorrow, at least?


I agree we need a lynch today.  Except, at mylo, no lynch is correct.  Who else has claimed to have met the love doc?

Okay, if me getting mislynched was the right move for the town, then I'd be all for it.  But I don't see how it could be.

I'm talking about best case scenarios with a mislynch.  Early game, yeah, the VT is a fine loss.  But late game, needing to POE, I think confirming two players' alignment with one lynch is pretty great.  If you are scum, so is BA, guaranteed.  If you are town, so is BA, guaranteed.

[ashersky]

I would vote for PPS as a "not me" candidate, as I think that's why PPS is voting for me.

[pingpongsam]

I would vote for PPS as a "not me" candidate, as I think that's why PPS is voting for me.

Yeah, I mean if not arch or a magical mason I have to go the the one possible lynch I can't say for certain is town.

[Witherweaver]

If scum is loved, this is mylo, right?  If scum is not loved, we can afford one mislynch.

Is my mislynch really better than a "Mason" mislynch?  Assuming they aren't lying...confirming them is worthwhile.  Me flipping VT is a boon for scum as it does nothing for the rest of town.

Will the hydrad/arch/lio triad promise to please lynch the "masons" tomorrow, at least?


I agree we need a lynch today.  Except, at mylo, no lynch is correct.  Who else has claimed to have met the love doc?

Okay, if me getting mislynched was the right move for the town, then I'd be all for it.  But I don't see how it could be.

I'm talking about best case scenarios with a mislynch.  Early game, yeah, the VT is a fine loss.  But late game, needing to POE, I think confirming two players' alignment with one lynch is pretty great.  If you are scum, so is BA, guaranteed.  If you are town, so is BA, guaranteed.

Okay, this is my problem:

(1) I don't agree that it's reasonable to still think that BA and I are scum.  Yes, I know, in general if two players come out as Masons you have to suspect them and want to verify them.  But I think in this game with everything that's gone on and all the talk that's gone on, the "BA and WW are scum masterminds" theory should be at the bottom of everyone's list of ideas on what's going on.

(2) Even *if* I could see it from this vantage point, then okay.. me and BA might be scum.  You lynch one of us, the other flips town.  Tonight the other one dies.  Then Tomorrow, the rest of the town members come in today with exactly the same knowledge that I have right now---BA and myself were Town so the scum has to lie in {Ash, PPS, Hydrad, Faust, Arch. Lio}.  Okay I guess each town person has an extra piece of information that I don't have now, that they themselves are town.    I don't think it puts us in a better situation.  If we can figure out who one of the scum  is once BA and I are confirmed, then we should be able to figure it out right now.

[ashersky]

Right now, though, we know scum are in WW/BA or the other group.  We can eliminate one group as possible by lynching within it, but can't for the other.

[Witherweaver]

Right now, though, we know scum are in WW/BA or the other group.  We can eliminate one group as possible by lynching within it, but can't for the other.

Yes, that makes sense, but of course it doesn't help me, as *I* know scum are in the other group. 

I and truly believe that some careful consideration can convince everyone else of it, too.  Without the need for a mislynch.

[Jimmmmm]

Vote Count 4.6

ashersky (4): Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome, pingpongsam, Hydrad (L-1)
pingpongsam (2): liopoil, Archetype
Beyond Awesome (2): faust, ashersky

not voting (0)

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on July 28 at 11am forum time.

Target: 4
Score: 5

[Archetype]

Right now, though, we know scum are in WW/BA or the other group.  We can eliminate one group as possible by lynching within it, but can't for the other.

Except that one is selected by a reward and the other isn't. I'm not going to try to argue with you about how WW/BA being Masons is the most plausible reward because it's been many times before at many different angles.

Intent to hammer. I prefer PPS, but ash has a better chance at being the dice destroyer and it's not unlikely that they are both scum.

[Archetype]

Oh, I'm the one who's anti-town? If you aren't scum, you're anti-town for pushing a lynch against 2 Masons.

Claimed Masons. I can say you're anti-town for psuhing two claimed town players as well. Why is everything WW/BA say considered the bare truth by you?

I don't consider everything they say the bare truth. I'm looked at all the information provided by Hydrad and you/ash and I think the only rational explanation is that WW/BA are Town. And so, I'm more likely to listen to Town reads than non-townreads.

[Archetype]

PPS is being scummy to the point where I find it hard for anyone to have a townread on him.

Classic ericsonian suggestion technique in effect here. How can you find it hard for other people to have a town read on someone? They can do that for themselves without your guidance.

You're right - they can. They're just wrong. if they do. Your claim, rolling 6 dice, weird softclaim attempt day 1, weird lynch preference/voting records, are all scummy. I don't know how anyone can look at all those things and get a townie read from them.

[liopoil]

Arch's latest makes me worry he is pps's partner even more. bussing while stating intent to hammer someone else.

[Archetype]

Arch's latest makes me worry he is pps's partner even more. bussing while stating intent to hammer someone else.

I feel like no matter what I do you'll think of some scum narrative. Have you even stated why you have a scumread on me?

[liopoil]

Well there the town narrative makes less sense... if you're lynching ash, why continue to talk about pps? And I have - lurking, POE, and your anti-town stuff D1/2. I also don't put as much weight on confirmed roles as other people do.

[liopoil]

Day 4 ends on July 28 at 11am forum time.

Well shoot. I still think there is support for a pps lynch, but ash lynch is better than no lynch.

I will be leaving in ~half an hour, I will hammer then.

[ashersky]

I'd rather you not.

vote: pps is better than me.

WW/BA are scum.  Please dear god believe me if you all hammer me in my sleep.

[liopoil]

I'd rather you not.

vote: pps is better than me.

WW/BA are scum.  Please dear god believe me if you all hammer me in my sleep.

Are you going to sleep now? Deadline is in less than 4 hours.

[ashersky]

I'd rather you not.

vote: pps is better than me.

WW/BA are scum.  Please dear god believe me if you all hammer me in my sleep.

Are you going to sleep now? Deadline is in less than 4 hours.

It's late here and I'm still very sick.  What can I say that hasn't already been said?

[liopoil]

I'd rather you not.

vote: pps is better than me.

WW/BA are scum.  Please dear god believe me if you all hammer me in my sleep.

Are you going to sleep now? Deadline is in less than 4 hours.

It's late here and I'm still very sick.  What can I say that hasn't already been said?

oh yes, go ahead. I was just wondering. I don't think there is much left to be said.

2 more votes to lynch pps. faust, thoughts?

I really don't want to hammer you, ash, but I don't have long and your lynch is better than none.

[liopoil]

I guess I don't know if anyone will be online in time. I probably won't be on again. But if someone else shows up, they can hammer ashersky if the votes for pps won't happen. But still, that is risky. hmmm.

The thing is I really don't know what faust will do. And even if he votes for pps, Hydrad and WW might have decided they prefer ash.

[ashersky]

I prefer no lynch to my own lynch.  Having one less player to wonder about tomorrow isn't terrible, and is the point of no lynch at mylo.

[ashersky]

And really, who scum kills is a great head scratcher.

[liopoil]

I prefer no lynch to my own lynch.  Having one less player to wonder about tomorrow isn't terrible, and is the point of no lynch at mylo.

so would I, if I knew you were town.

And really, who scum kills is a great head scratcher.

is it less of a head scratcher if we lynch you?

[ashersky]

I prefer no lynch to my own lynch.  Having one less player to wonder about tomorrow isn't terrible, and is the point of no lynch at mylo.

so would I, if I knew you were town.

And really, who scum kills is a great head scratcher.

is it less of a head scratcher if we lynch you?

No, I don't think so.  After all the heat scum has put on me today, do you think they take out their best mislynch candidate for tomorrow?

Basically, scum has setup the perfect wifom argument:

"Hey, the Masons didn't die, they must be scum!"

"Hey, scum would know that would happen, that's why they didn't kill us!"

It's too perfect for them.  I mean, I'd say congratulations to them, but really it's just shame on town for believing them.

[ashersky]

It seems the argument the "masons" have been making about how if we lynch one, the other dies, would apply to a number of us.  It makes sense to force scum to whittle the field down themselves.  They won't kill me, supposedly they won't kill "masons."  So who will they kill?

[liopoil]

I prefer no lynch to my own lynch.  Having one less player to wonder about tomorrow isn't terrible, and is the point of no lynch at mylo.

so would I, if I knew you were town.

And really, who scum kills is a great head scratcher.

is it less of a head scratcher if we lynch you?

No, I don't think so.  After all the heat scum has put on me today, do you think they take out their best mislynch candidate for tomorrow?

Basically, scum has setup the perfect wifom argument:

"Hey, the Masons didn't die, they must be scum!"

"Hey, scum would know that would happen, that's why they didn't kill us!"

It's too perfect for them.  I mean, I'd say congratulations to them, but really it's just shame on town for believing them.

I don't expect the masons to die regardless of their alignment. Probably one of hydrad and faust. Why would they kill you, if you are town?

[liopoil]

Nobody is online. I have to go. I'll just have to do it.

Vote: Ashersky

[ashersky]

Nobody is online. I have to go. I'll just have to do it.

Vote: Ashersky

gg scum

[ashersky]

liopoil's hedgy "oh I wish I didn't have to" crap was definitely super scummy.

If I wasn't so sure that WW/BA are scum, I'd point the finger at liopoil, who've I've suspected all game.

Lio/Arch is the team if the "masons" weren't lying.

[ashersky]

So who are we congratulating?  That's endgame, right?

[ashersky]

Come on guys, no reason to stretch this out.

[ashersky]

So who are we congratulating?  That's endgame, right?

I say this because no way WW/BA run this masons gambit without being loved.

[ashersky]

Also, shame on you liopoil -- you have been around long enough to know town!ash.

[ashersky]

I will enjoy rubbing this in your faces for ages to come, your horrendous reads.  Everyone but faust.

(of course, on the off chance that faust is scum, his read doesn't count)

[ashersky]

Seriously, this always happens when I'm town at an important juncture of a game.  Ridiculous.

gg scum masons and horrible game town believers

[Jimmmmm]

Vote Count 4.7

ashersky (5): Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome, pingpongsam, Hydrad, liopoil (L)
pingpongsam (3): liopoil, Archetype, ashersky
Beyond Awesome (1): faust

not voting (0)

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on July 28 at 11am forum time.

Target: 4
Score: 5

[Witherweaver]

so Ash is Loved?

[Witherweaver]

arch or Faust. hammer

[faust]

Uhh...

vote: ashersky

[Jimmmmm]

Thread locked.

[Jimmmmm]

Vote Count 4.8 - Final

ashersky (6): Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome, pingpongsam, Hydrad, liopoil, faust
pingpongsam (2): Archetype, ashersky

not voting (0)

With 8 alive, it took 5 to lynch.

ashersky has been lynched. He was a Vanilla Townie.

[Jimmmmm]

Target: 4
Score: 5

The Ogre has been defeated!

Today's Reward is CLUE.

During Night 4, each player may vote for a positive integer less than or equal to 3, by typing Vote: n in their Personal QT. At the end of the Night, a word will be posted in the Personal QT of n randomly selected surviving Town-aligned players, where n is the integer receiving the most votes, with a tie broken randomly. The same word will be posted in the Mafia QT, as well as the result of the vote.


Night 4 has begun. All Night actions are due on July 30 at 9am forum time.

Whether or not you submit a Night action, all players must post in their Personal QT at least once during the Night.

[Jimmmmm]

A clarification of the Reward: votes will be counted for all currently living players whether or not they survive the Night, but any player who dies will not be able to receive the word at the end of the Night.

[Jimmmmm]

A goblin kills faust and attacks Witherweaver and Beyond Awesome.

faust has been killed. He was a Town Universal Backup.

A Goblin has attacked!
Rule: Even numbers count as negative.

The Goblin has attacked Witherweaver and Beyond Awesome!



Vote Count 5.0

not voting (6): Archetype, Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome, liopoil, Hydrad, pingpongsam

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Evening begins on August 7 at 2pm forum time.
Day 5 ends on August 9 at 2pm forum time.

Target: 25
Score: 0


Day 5 has begun!

Thread unlocked.

[pingpongsam]

So, without yeat revealing the clue word. Who got the clue word?

[Witherweaver]

We need to know both what n was and who got the word.. we should figure out a way to do this.

Maybe we all first say what we voted for n?

[pingpongsam]

So, we know ash/faust isn't a possibility. We know ash/pps and faust/pps are not possible pairs. Am I still the prime suspect today? I'm the obvious mislynch of choice since the 2 people who were clearly not going to lynch me yesterday are gone.

Oh, and Play: 9

Oh, Oh, and Witherweaver, no surprise you survived the night. Would you like to tell everyone how many dice you received last night?

[Witherweaver]

We should also claim night actions.

[pingpongsam]

I sent dice to Witherweaver and I'd like to hear how many he received.

I vote for 1 because any more would have created the same scenario we had yesterday. If BA/WW know the word and 1 other guy knows the word then we know that pair is scum.

[Witherweaver]

I received 7 dice last night.

[Jimmmmm]

pingpongsam plays a 9
Score: 9

[pingpongsam]

But I think we should just hear who knows the word without talking about how many should know the word just yet.

[Witherweaver]

But I think we should just hear who knows the word without talking about how many should know the word just yet.

Maybe.. I had a hard time figuring out how it should be done.. why is that better?

[Beyond Awesome]

I targeted PPS. I got the results 1,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12

The number 2 was missing.

Also, PPS how would you know that just one person got the clue word? HMMM....

PPE: 2

Oh, and I have 2 dice left. I think I should roll last since I was attacked. I don't want to get a negative value.

Interesting about WW getting 7 dice. Does PPS roll a d6? So, lio and PPS targeted WW, it would seem.

PPE: 2

[pingpongsam]

I received 7 dice last night.

Does anyone else want to claim having sent Witherweaver dice? If not, does anyone want to explain how the alleged dice destroyer managed to send these dice?

[Beyond Awesome]

But I think we should just hear who knows the word without talking about how many should know the word just yet.

Again, what makes you think just one person got the clue word?

[pingpongsam]

Also, PPS how would you know that just one person got the clue word? HMMM....

I don't recall claiming to know this at all.

[pingpongsam]

I provided my reasining for how I voted, I was not positing anything about the results of everyone's votes.

[Witherweaver]

Well this is interesting:

Result of 7d?'s:

5,5,5,5,5,5,5.

*I did not have 0 dice in my supply before last night*

<b>Play: 5</b> obviously.

I think the Orc's attack makes me roll all of the same number.

[Witherweaver]

Play: 5

[Beyond Awesome]

I provided my reasining for how I voted, I was not positing anything about the results of everyone's votes.

Fair enough. Hmm, this is very interesting that you sent dice to WW.

[Witherweaver]

Well, or PPS's role does something weird. 

[Beyond Awesome]

Well this is interesting:

Result of 7d?'s:

5,5,5,5,5,5,5.

*I did not have 0 dice in my supply before last night*

<b>Play: 5</b> obviously.

I think the Orc's attack makes me roll all of the same number.

Interesting. Not sure what to make of it. At least, it is an odd number.

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, or PPS's role does something weird.

Possible.

[pingpongsam]

Well, or PPS's role does something weird.

Possible.

Or....... I am not scum after all.

[Witherweaver]

I targeted Faust with Sabotage. 

[pingpongsam]

I woudl expect whatever BA rolls to be all the same which means I agree he should roll last and maybe not at all or just one die so he can not play it if it is even numbered.

[pingpongsam]

So, if WW/BA/PPS do not know the word then Arch/Hydrad/lio must.

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, I am guessing now that the dice destroying is a factional ability after all. Now, who was it that proposed that idea?

[Jimmmmm]

Witherweaver plays a 5
Score: 14

[Beyond Awesome]

confirming roles isn't that helpful, man. At this point, this dice destructor is probably just a factional power or something.

Of course, lio

Vote: Lio

[pingpongsam]

Real WIFOM in the WW/BA attack. If they are scum they could have attacked themselves hoping to foul the rolls with an excuse. In this scenario WW got screwed a bit because they all came out odd and he had to play one of them.

In the alternative scenario scum wanted to mess with the magical masons' rolls just for this WIFOM but in essence confirming them as Town which I think rather unlikely, why not attack 2 other townies? Well, maybe because the entire town team is revealed if we decided the magical masons plus the 2 attacked are the town team.

[pingpongsam]

Let's hear something about the clue word before we get too vote happy.

[Witherweaver]

confirming roles isn't that helpful, man. At this point, this dice destructor is probably just a factional power or something.

Of course, lio

Vote: Lio

Why does that implicate Lio?

[pingpongsam]

confirming roles isn't that helpful, man. At this point, this dice destructor is probably just a factional power or something.

Of course, lio

Vote: Lio

Why does that implicate Lio?

He wanted me dead before I could confirm my role.

[Beyond Awesome]

confirming roles isn't that helpful, man. At this point, this dice destructor is probably just a factional power or something.

Of course, lio

Vote: Lio

Why does that implicate Lio?

I just wonder what made him so confident that dice destroying was factional.

[Beyond Awesome]

Real WIFOM in the WW/BA attack. If they are scum they could have attacked themselves hoping to foul the rolls with an excuse. In this scenario WW got screwed a bit because they all came out odd and he had to play one of them.

In the alternative scenario scum wanted to mess with the magical masons' rolls just for this WIFOM but in essence confirming them as Town which I think rather unlikely, why not attack 2 other townies? Well, maybe because the entire town team is revealed if we decided the magical masons plus the 2 attacked are the town team.

Have any surviving players not been attacked yet?

[pingpongsam]

I have not been attacked by a monster. chairs targeted me. I don't even know how to interpret BA's result on me last night since I have no supply dice.

[Beyond Awesome]

I have not been attacked by a monster. chairs targeted me. I don't even know how to interpret BA's result on me last night since I have no supply dice.

I see what you are able to roll even if you don't have any dice left.

[liopoil]

confirming roles isn't that helpful, man. At this point, this dice destructor is probably just a factional power or something.

Of course, lio

Vote: Lio

dude, it's mylo. And this is such a flimsy reason... it was reasonable and probably correct to believe it is factional, and really, if I were scum then I don't know why I would suggest that.

[liopoil]

I gave dice to Beyond Awesome last night.

So all of our roles are confirmed? Well, that sure was useful. Good thing we massclaimed.[/sarcasm]

[liopoil]

So, unless Hydrad is really good, scum is either arch-pps or ww/BA. We just have to figure out which one.

[Witherweaver]

BA check your QT.  Did you get dice?

[Witherweaver]

So the two people that were given dice were the same two people that were attacked by the Orc and can seemingly only roll one value?  How interesting...

Why did you guys choose us?

[liopoil]

So the two people that were given dice were the same two people that were attacked by the Orc and can seemingly only roll one value?  How interesting...

Why did you guys choose us?

My thinking:

Hydrad and faust might die, so I didn't give to them.  I am leaning towards pps and arch being the last scum, and of {ww, BA} I thought it better to give to BA because he had dice stolen from earlier and also there was talk yesterday about targeting ww with stuff, and I didn't want to interfere with that.

[liopoil]

confirming roles isn't that helpful, man. At this point, this dice destructor is probably just a factional power or something.

Of course, lio

Vote: Lio

Why does that implicate Lio?

I just wonder what made him so confident that dice destroying was factional.

I'm not sure I was exactly confident. It just seemed like the most likely explanation, given everybody had plausible claims.

Also, what was with ash being loved?

[liopoil]

Oh, and I have 2 dice left.

WHAT???

[Witherweaver]

Also, what was with ash being loved?

I'm guessing he had some crazy plan.  Either scum assumes he was lying, or it's not worth taking the risk, and so they night kill him to avoid him being Loved at LyLo. But in case he didn't get killed he went ahead and got Loved in case he made it there, so scum couldn't  hammer him at LyLo.  Or something like that. 

I guess it would work, if it was, like, Ash Town Scum, Ash can't be lynched.. so if Town votes for Ash and Scum tries to hammer, scum outs himself.  Or.. something.

[liopoil]

At the end he seemed to be trying to get scum to come out and celebrate. But nobody was online, so even if scum had "won" it wouldn't work.

By the way, scum could be loved now, right?

[Witherweaver]

At the end he seemed to be trying to get scum to come out and celebrate. But nobody was online, so even if scum had "won" it wouldn't work.

By the way, scum could be loved now, right?

Wouldn't we be end gamed?

[Witherweaver]

At the end he seemed to be trying to get scum to come out and celebrate. But nobody was online, so even if scum had "won" it wouldn't work.

By the way, scum could be loved now, right?

Well, I was online.. I didn't really pay much heed in what he said, though.  I was 100% positive he was scum after he turned out to be Loved.

[liopoil]

At the end he seemed to be trying to get scum to come out and celebrate. But nobody was online, so even if scum had "won" it wouldn't work.

By the way, scum could be loved now, right?

Wouldn't we be end gamed?

Maybe. I guess we could vig with the grim reaper? Oh yeah, we should claim where stuff is.

[Witherweaver]

I was not visited last night.

[liopoil]

I was not visited last night.

I was not visited either.

[Beyond Awesome]

BA check your QT.  Did you get dice?

No. I did not get dice.

[liopoil]

BA check your QT.  Did you get dice?

No. I did not get dice.

Uhh, well, you're probably scum then? Or scum interfered somehow, which would be strange considering nothing like that has happened before.

[Witherweaver]

BA check your QT.  Did you get dice?

No. I did not get dice.

You're 100% sure?  No change at all?

[liopoil]

BA check your QT.  Did you get dice?

No. I did not get dice.

You're 100% sure?  No change at all?

Trying to tell him to abort plan implicate liopoil?

[Beyond Awesome]

BA check your QT.  Did you get dice?

No. I did not get dice.

You're 100% sure?  No change at all?

All I have showing up in my QT is the result of seeing PPS values that he can roll. It does not show that I gained any dice.

[Witherweaver]

BA check your QT.  Did you get dice?

No. I did not get dice.

You're 100% sure?  No change at all?

Trying to tell him to abort plan implicate liopoil?

Abort what plan?   How could he have planned a priori to implicate you before you announced that you gave him dice?

[liopoil]

BA check your QT.  Did you get dice?

No. I did not get dice.

You're 100% sure?  No change at all?

Trying to tell him to abort plan implicate liopoil?

Abort what plan?   How could he have planned a priori to implicate you before you announced that you gave him dice?

Well he made the "plan" just now. It's not really a plan.

I'll admit, I'm not sure why he would do this as scum though.

[Beyond Awesome]

I was not visited last night.

The Grim Reaper nor any NPC visited me last night.

[Beyond Awesome]

Can someone find me the post where PPS talks about how many dice he can give a player? Does he roll a d6 or a d12?

[pingpongsam]

Haha, Lio should have claimed to have targeted faust, wth?

I got visited by the Grim Reaper last night. I was unable to do anything but read the text in my QT.

So far no one has mentioned the clue word. Anxious to see if Hydrad or Arch know the word.

[Witherweaver]

BA check your QT.  Did you get dice?

No. I did not get dice.

You're 100% sure?  No change at all?

Trying to tell him to abort plan implicate liopoil?

Abort what plan?   How could he have planned a priori to implicate you before you announced that you gave him dice?

Well he made the "plan" just now. It's not really a plan.

I'll admit, I'm not sure why he would do this as scum though.

He said he only had 2 dice a the beginning:

I targeted PPS. I got the results 1,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12

The number 2 was missing.

Also, PPS how would you know that just one person got the clue word? HMMM....

PPE: 2

Oh, and I have 2 dice left. I think I should roll last since I was attacked. I don't want to get a negative value.

Interesting about WW getting 7 dice. Does PPS roll a d6? So, lio and PPS targeted WW, it would seem.

PPE: 2

[Witherweaver]

Can someone find me the post where PPS talks about how many dice he can give a player? Does he roll a d6 or a d12?

He gives 1d12 number of d8's

[Beyond Awesome]

BA check your QT.  Did you get dice?

No. I did not get dice.

You're 100% sure?  No change at all?

Trying to tell him to abort plan implicate liopoil?

Abort what plan?   How could he have planned a priori to implicate you before you announced that you gave him dice?

Well he made the "plan" just now. It's not really a plan.

I'll admit, I'm not sure why he would do this as scum though.

There are two possibilities.

1) Exactly 1 die was stolen from me
2) You never gave me a die and are scum trying to set me up.

[pingpongsam]

Can someone find me the post where PPS talks about how many dice he can give a player? Does he roll a d6 or a d12?

Geez, the whole confusion was surrounding the use of 1d12. Initially, I thought that meant I gave 1x d12 when in fact it means i give out n d8s where n is the result of an imaginary (as in not in anyone's supply) d12.

[pingpongsam]

Why would Lio not claim to have targeted faust?

[liopoil]

Haha, Lio should have claimed to have targeted faust, wth?

I got visited by the Grim Reaper last night. I was unable to do anything but read the text in my QT.

So far no one has mentioned the clue word. Anxious to see if Hydrad or Arch know the word.

I don't think any of us have claimed whether we know the word or not. The problem is, both town and scum want to wait for others before revealing that they know the word.

[Witherweaver]

BA check your QT.  Did you get dice?

No. I did not get dice.

You're 100% sure?  No change at all?

Trying to tell him to abort plan implicate liopoil?

Abort what plan?   How could he have planned a priori to implicate you before you announced that you gave him dice?

Well he made the "plan" just now. It's not really a plan.

I'll admit, I'm not sure why he would do this as scum though.

There are two possibilities.

1) Exactly 1 die was stolen from me
2) You never gave me a die and are scum trying to set me up.

Exactly 1 die?  No, Lio's ability was to spend a die to give 1d12 number of dice, right?

[liopoil]

Why would Lio not claim to have targeted faust?

If I were scum, I would either do that, or just say I didn't use it (reasonable, if I were out of dice). But I was not out of dice, so I used it.

[liopoil]

BA check your QT.  Did you get dice?

No. I did not get dice.

You're 100% sure?  No change at all?

Trying to tell him to abort plan implicate liopoil?

Abort what plan?   How could he have planned a priori to implicate you before you announced that you gave him dice?

Well he made the "plan" just now. It's not really a plan.

I'll admit, I'm not sure why he would do this as scum though.

There are two possibilities.

1) Exactly 1 die was stolen from me
2) You never gave me a die and are scum trying to set me up.

Exactly 1 die?  No, Lio's ability was to spend a die to give 1d12 number of dice, right?

Yes. So I guess scum may have stolen the exact same number of dice from you as I gave to you.

[Witherweaver]

I don't see a reason to not claim what we voted for.  Scum was already given the value of n.

[Beyond Awesome]

BA check your QT.  Did you get dice?

No. I did not get dice.

You're 100% sure?  No change at all?

Trying to tell him to abort plan implicate liopoil?

Abort what plan?   How could he have planned a priori to implicate you before you announced that you gave him dice?

Well he made the "plan" just now. It's not really a plan.

I'll admit, I'm not sure why he would do this as scum though.

There are two possibilities.

1) Exactly 1 die was stolen from me
2) You never gave me a die and are scum trying to set me up.

Exactly 1 die?  No, Lio's ability was to spend a die to give 1d12 number of dice, right?

Yes. So I guess scum may have stolen the exact same number of dice from you as I gave to you.

I guess that is a possibility. How many dice did you give me?

[Beyond Awesome]

BA check your QT.  Did you get dice?

No. I did not get dice.

You're 100% sure?  No change at all?

Trying to tell him to abort plan implicate liopoil?

Abort what plan?   How could he have planned a priori to implicate you before you announced that you gave him dice?

Well he made the "plan" just now. It's not really a plan.

I'll admit, I'm not sure why he would do this as scum though.

There are two possibilities.

1) Exactly 1 die was stolen from me
2) You never gave me a die and are scum trying to set me up.

Exactly 1 die?  No, Lio's ability was to spend a die to give 1d12 number of dice, right?

Ah. I thought he could only give 1 die at a time.

[liopoil]

I don't see a reason to not claim what we voted for.  Scum was already given the value of n.

Right. I voted for 3. I saw no functional difference between 3 and 1, so I just chose one. Both 1 and 3 are certainly better than 2. But 1 and 3 are exactly the same.

BA check your QT.  Did you get dice?

No. I did not get dice.

You're 100% sure?  No change at all?

Trying to tell him to abort plan implicate liopoil?

Abort what plan?   How could he have planned a priori to implicate you before you announced that you gave him dice?

Well he made the "plan" just now. It's not really a plan.

I'll admit, I'm not sure why he would do this as scum though.

There are two possibilities.

1) Exactly 1 die was stolen from me
2) You never gave me a die and are scum trying to set me up.

Exactly 1 die?  No, Lio's ability was to spend a die to give 1d12 number of dice, right?

Yes. So I guess scum may have stolen the exact same number of dice from you as I gave to you.

I guess that is a possibility. How many dice did you give me?

I don't know - a random number 1-12.

[pingpongsam]

I don't see a reason to not claim what we voted for.  Scum was already given the value of n.

Point taken. I already claimed I voted 1 and explained why.

[Witherweaver]

I don't see a reason to not claim what we voted for.  Scum was already given the value of n.

Point taken. I already claimed I voted 1 and explained why.

I voted for 1 as well.

[liopoil]

I sent dice to Witherweaver and I'd like to hear how many he received.

I vote for 1 because any more would have created the same scenario we had yesterday. If BA/WW know the word and 1 other guy knows the word then we know that pair is scum.

How is 3 different from 1?

[Beyond Awesome]

I also voted for 1

[Beyond Awesome]

I sent dice to Witherweaver and I'd like to hear how many he received.

I vote for 1 because any more would have created the same scenario we had yesterday. If BA/WW know the word and 1 other guy knows the word then we know that pair is scum.

How is 3 different from 1?

less people know the word. People can claim they don't know and lie and get away with it if 3 was chosen.

[liopoil]

I sent dice to Witherweaver and I'd like to hear how many he received.

I vote for 1 because any more would have created the same scenario we had yesterday. If BA/WW know the word and 1 other guy knows the word then we know that pair is scum.

How is 3 different from 1?

less people know the word. People can claim they don't know and lie and get away with it if 3 was chosen.

Then 4 people have claimed. Then town knows there is one scum in the group of 4, and one scum in the 2 that didn't claim to have the word. This is the same as if 1 is chosen and a scum claims to have gotten it.

[Witherweaver]

I sent dice to Witherweaver and I'd like to hear how many he received.

I vote for 1 because any more would have created the same scenario we had yesterday. If BA/WW know the word and 1 other guy knows the word then we know that pair is scum.

How is 3 different from 1?

less people know the word. People can claim they don't know and lie and get away with it if 3 was chosen.

No one would lie.. town has no reason to lie, and scum is told the word.

[liopoil]

I sent dice to Witherweaver and I'd like to hear how many he received.

I vote for 1 because any more would have created the same scenario we had yesterday. If BA/WW know the word and 1 other guy knows the word then we know that pair is scum.

How is 3 different from 1?

less people know the word. People can claim they don't know and lie and get away with it if 3 was chosen.

No one would lie.. town has no reason to lie, and scum is told the word.

scum would lie, unless they want 3 ICs...

[Witherweaver]

Oh, you mean scum can not claim the word.. Then it just shifts from one group to the other (k to N-k).  What Lio said, I think.

[Witherweaver]

I sent dice to Witherweaver and I'd like to hear how many he received.

I vote for 1 because any more would have created the same scenario we had yesterday. If BA/WW know the word and 1 other guy knows the word then we know that pair is scum.

How is 3 different from 1?

less people know the word. People can claim they don't know and lie and get away with it if 3 was chosen.

No one would lie.. town has no reason to lie, and scum is told the word.

scum would lie, unless they want 3 ICs...

Right I misunderstood what he said.

[Beyond Awesome]

Can anyone who was stolen tonight please claim? Thanks.

[liopoil]

Can anyone who was stolen tonight please claim? Thanks.

Yeah, that.

[pingpongsam]

I voted 1 because it is the only way to check the WW/BA claim. If we have 5 people who know the word it doesn't out WW/BA. If only 3 people know the word then WW/BA is busted. Really the clue is an awful reward because it just generates more WIFOM because scum gets to choose whether or not they even want to claim knowledge of it. I believe a correction to the reward would be a requirement that scum has to explicitly claim the word in the game thread.

[Archetype]

Hi.

I voted for 3. My thinking was that it would leave less spots for scum to fakeclaim, but I didn't understand the reward super well anyway. Should I say whether or not I was told the word? Asking mainly Hydrad, here.

I was not visited by any NPCs, but I had some dice stolen. Don't know if I should claim that either.

[pingpongsam]

Somehow I don't think the scum rewards are as useless to scum as the town rewards have proven to be for town. Defeating the monsters is just a means of not getting punished with the scum rewards.

[liopoil]

I had some dice stolen.

lies!

Yes, it's an arch/pps scumteam. Or if this is true I guess it's BA/ww, but that doesn't make as much sense.

[Beyond Awesome]

Hi.

I voted for 3. My thinking was that it would leave less spots for scum to fakeclaim, but I didn't understand the reward super well anyway. Should I say whether or not I was told the word? Asking mainly Hydrad, here.

I was not visited by any NPCs, but I had some dice stolen. Don't know if I should claim that either.

I am confused by your sentence where you say if you know the word or not and are waiting for Hydrad to chime in.

Anyway, if you still have enough dice, I think you and lio should roll next. We need 11 to defeat the monster.

[Witherweaver]

I had some dice stolen.

lies!

Yes, it's an arch/pps scumteam. Or if this is true I guess it's BA/ww, but that doesn't make as much sense.

Well, or you're lying~!

[Beyond Awesome]

I had some dice stolen.

lies!

Yes, it's an arch/pps scumteam. Or if this is true I guess it's BA/ww, but that doesn't make as much sense.

Well, or you're lying~!

Or, they are both lying.

[liopoil]

I had some dice stolen.

lies!

Yes, it's an arch/pps scumteam. Or if this is true I guess it's BA/ww, but that doesn't make as much sense.

Well, or you're lying~!

Or, they are both lying.

Why would I lie? Sure, so that I could say that, but WIFOM.

[Archetype]

I had some dice stolen.

lies!

Yes, it's an arch/pps scumteam. Or if this is true I guess it's BA/ww, but that doesn't make as much sense.

Why would you think I was lying?

Hi.

I voted for 3. My thinking was that it would leave less spots for scum to fakeclaim, but I didn't understand the reward super well anyway. Should I say whether or not I was told the word? Asking mainly Hydrad, here.

I was not visited by any NPCs, but I had some dice stolen. Don't know if I should claim that either.

I am confused by your sentence where you say if you know the word or not and are waiting for Hydrad to chime in.

Anyway, if you still have enough dice, I think you and lio should roll next. We need 11 to defeat the monster.

Hydrad's my top Town read. I was waiting for him to let me know if it's OK that I claim whether or not I knew the word. But thinking about it more, it doesn't matter if I wait. I do not know the word.


Also, I sent the Dice Vendor to Hydrad and the Mentalist to faust. I asked Jimmmmm what would happen if he was holding the Mentalist and died, but he said he couldn't tell me.

[Witherweaver]

I had some dice stolen.

lies!

Yes, it's an arch/pps scumteam. Or if this is true I guess it's BA/ww, but that doesn't make as much sense.

Well, or you're lying~!

Or, they are both lying.

Why would I lie? Sure, so that I could say that, but WIFOM.

Because...

DUM DUM DUM

Conspiracy theory:

The team is you/PPS. One of you has the ability to give out dice, the other has the ability to destroy dice.  PPS's is obviously the fake one.  He had to come up with a reason to almost never use it, so he found a way for it to be anti-town.  Note in particular how quick PPS was to jump on BA's ability confirming his own, where really that is not possible.

You would expect to maybe have to prove the fake claim once, and in that case you two can coordinate to make it believable, since there really *IS* a role that gives dice.  So come to tonight.  I receive dice, allegedly from PPS. I'm also conveniently attacked by an Orc that messes with my rolls somehow, so I'm unable to confirm if I'm alternating between d8 rolls and d12 rolls.  You claim to target BA, and I know he must be telling the truth when he say he received none.  The only possibility is that the "die destroyer" random d6 exactly happened to match the d12 result for number of dice received.  This I consider very unlikely.  I would work out the probability, but it's moot as Archetype claimed to have lost dice.

So why claim you targeted BA instead of Faust?  Well, you killed Faust, and you would know that claiming to give him dice would be super suspect.  So choose one of the masons.  There's already a "WW/BA scum plot" theory floating around, so if it falls back to "someone is lying" people may side against us.  Why choose Archetype to get hit?  Well, now you have a three-way lying circle: You, Archetype, BA.  Anyone that can't convince themselves that BA and myself are scum may have an easier time convincing themselves that Archetype is. 

Note in particular all the side comments of "oh, well, unless it really is WW/BA".

[pingpongsam]

Jesus, we're back to PPS must be scum to explain wtf is going on.

[Witherweaver]

Jesus, we're back to PPS must be scum to explain wtf is going on.

Paint me the other Lio/X picture.

[Witherweaver]

I mean, also Lio's entire "Okay I'll lynch Ash, but are you SURE you don't want to lynch PPS?  I mean.. we can lynch PPS.  Anyone for PPS?" thing.

[Hydrad]

Ok sorry for not posting earlier. I voted for 1 also so unless someone is lying only one town has the clue.

I think if you know the clue you should say you have received it. You don't have to say what the clue is yet but I don't think scum is going to say it first. They probably won't even speak up that they know the clue so we get a free IC

[Witherweaver]

Ok sorry for not posting earlier. I voted for 1 also so unless someone is lying only one town has the clue.

I think if you know the clue you should say you have received it. You don't have to say what the clue is yet but I don't think scum is going to say it first. They probably won't even speak up that they know the clue so we get a free IC

Why would they not speak up?

[Hydrad]

Ok sorry for not posting earlier. I voted for 1 also so unless someone is lying only one town has the clue.

I think if you know the clue you should say you have received it. You don't have to say what the clue is yet but I don't think scum is going to say it first. They probably won't even speak up that they know the clue so we get a free IC

Why would they not speak up?

It's just a feeling. I feel like whoever claims first will be way more towny and scum won't want to risk creating a fight between the two of them

[Hydrad]

Also ww were you not able to target lio?

[Hydrad]

Oh and yes I removed the number 2

[pingpongsam]

Seems lady luck chose faust as the receiver of the clue. I considered voting 2 in case the receiver died but figured the odds of having another 2 v 2 mislynch were greater than the 1 receiver getting killed.

[pingpongsam]

I still think if we had to mislynch between me and ash yesterday, ash was the better mislynch because at least my dice giving ability is now confirmed whereas his VT claim would be super suspect today. Also, unless the Love Doctor reward can be sent to someone other than the buyer Ash lied.

[Hydrad]

Seems lady luck chose faust as the receiver of the clue. I considered voting 2 in case the receiver died but figured the odds of having another 2 v 2 mislynch were greater than the 1 receiver getting killed.

I think jimmm said clue is sent to an alive town member. So someone should know

[Beyond Awesome]

Seems lady luck chose faust as the receiver of the clue. I considered voting 2 in case the receiver died but figured the odds of having another 2 v 2 mislynch were greater than the 1 receiver getting killed.

A clarification of the Reward: votes will be counted for all currently living players whether or not they survive the Night, but any player who dies will not be able to receive the word at the end of the Night.

[pingpongsam]

A clarification of the Reward: votes will be counted for all currently living players whether or not they survive the Night, but any player who dies will not be able to receive the word at the end of the Night.

What it doesn't say is that the word will be given to a town member who didn't die. As far as I can tell, only scum knows the word.

[Beyond Awesome]

I still think if we had to mislynch between me and ash yesterday, ash was the better mislynch because at least my dice giving ability is now confirmed whereas his VT claim would be super suspect today. Also, unless the Love Doctor reward can be sent to someone other than the buyer Ash lied.

I wouldn't say that your ability has been confirmed.

[Witherweaver]

Also ww were you not able to target lio?

No, I missed the deadline.

[pingpongsam]

I still think if we had to mislynch between me and ash yesterday, ash was the better mislynch because at least my dice giving ability is now confirmed whereas his VT claim would be super suspect today. Also, unless the Love Doctor reward can be sent to someone other than the buyer Ash lied.

I wouldn't say that your ability has been confirmed.

Do you have an alternative explanation for WW receiving 7 dice last night?

[liopoil]

I had some dice stolen.

lies!

Yes, it's an arch/pps scumteam. Or if this is true I guess it's BA/ww, but that doesn't make as much sense.

Well, or you're lying~!

Or, they are both lying.

Why would I lie? Sure, so that I could say that, but WIFOM.

Because...

DUM DUM DUM

Conspiracy theory:

The team is you/PPS. One of you has the ability to give out dice, the other has the ability to destroy dice.  PPS's is obviously the fake one.  He had to come up with a reason to almost never use it, so he found a way for it to be anti-town.  Note in particular how quick PPS was to jump on BA's ability confirming his own, where really that is not possible.

You would expect to maybe have to prove the fake claim once, and in that case you two can coordinate to make it believable, since there really *IS* a role that gives dice.  So come to tonight.  I receive dice, allegedly from PPS. I'm also conveniently attacked by an Orc that messes with my rolls somehow, so I'm unable to confirm if I'm alternating between d8 rolls and d12 rolls.  You claim to target BA, and I know he must be telling the truth when he say he received none.  The only possibility is that the "die destroyer" random d6 exactly happened to match the d12 result for number of dice received.  This I consider very unlikely.  I would work out the probability, but it's moot as Archetype claimed to have lost dice.

So why claim you targeted BA instead of Faust?  Well, you killed Faust, and you would know that claiming to give him dice would be super suspect.  So choose one of the masons.  There's already a "WW/BA scum plot" theory floating around, so if it falls back to "someone is lying" people may side against us.  Why choose Archetype to get hit?  Well, now you have a three-way lying circle: You, Archetype, BA.  Anyone that can't convince themselves that BA and myself are scum may have an easier time convincing themselves that Archetype is. 

Note in particular all the side comments of "oh, well, unless it really is WW/BA".

...Seriously?

I still think if we had to mislynch between me and ash yesterday, ash was the better mislynch because at least my dice giving ability is now confirmed whereas his VT claim would be super suspect today. Also, unless the Love Doctor reward can be sent to someone other than the buyer Ash lied.

I wouldn't say that your ability has been confirmed.

Do you have an alternative explanation for WW receiving 7 dice last night?

I do! You and I are scumbuddies and I gave to WW.

[Beyond Awesome]

I still think if we had to mislynch between me and ash yesterday, ash was the better mislynch because at least my dice giving ability is now confirmed whereas his VT claim would be super suspect today. Also, unless the Love Doctor reward can be sent to someone other than the buyer Ash lied.

I wouldn't say that your ability has been confirmed.

Do you have an alternative explanation for WW receiving 7 dice last night?

Most likely scenario you are the dice destroyer. You stole from Arch. Lio targeted WW. You claimed to have targeted WW. Lio claims to target me, but somehow I don't end up with any extra dice.

Second possible scenario. You actually did give dice to WW. Arch and Lio are partners, and dice destroying is factional. Lio knows you were telling the truth about your role, so decides to not give anyone else dice to set you up as the mislynch and claims to have given me dice. Arch then claims he was stolen from for WIFOM reasons.

Scenario 1 sounds more likely to me.

[liopoil]

third scenario: arch and pps are partners, I gave to BA and they got destroyed them. Or I was bus driven. Or roleblocked. Or whatever happened.

fourth scenario: ww and BA are partners, I gave to BA, he lied.

I think the third scenario is more likely.

[liopoil]

But actually, those are just about the only 4 scenarios...

[liopoil]

Ok sorry for not posting earlier. I voted for 1 also so unless someone is lying only one town has the clue.

I think if you know the clue you should say you have received it. You don't have to say what the clue is yet but I don't think scum is going to say it first. They probably won't even speak up that they know the clue so we get a free IC

Why would they not speak up?

It's just a feeling. I feel like whoever claims first will be way more towny and scum won't want to risk creating a fight between the two of them

I don't believe this at all.

[Witherweaver]

wait, Faust could have stolen from someone last night

[Beyond Awesome]

wait, Faust could have stolen from someone last night

Would his ability go through before the NK? Do we know the order for which actions take place?

[pingpongsam]

Fine, geniuses
Vote: PPS

[Hydrad]

Fine, geniuses
Vote: PPS

Hmm? Is this because everyone is suspecting you?

[Hydrad]

Also this is a complete swap for me but I just want to get peoples opinions on this. Ww used his ability only twice this game. Once on BA who is his partner and if scum can lie about it. The second time on Faust who I think everyone expected to die tonight.

I even told ww about 2 hours before the qt closed that he should switch from Faust to lio and he said he would try. Personally I feel like jimmm would accept the swap if he did it then

[Witherweaver]

Fine, geniuses
Vote: PPS

no, vote for your partner!

[Witherweaver]

Also this is a complete swap for me but I just want to get peoples opinions on this. Ww used his ability only twice this game. Once on BA who is his partner and if scum can lie about it. The second time on Faust who I think everyone expected to die tonight.

I even told ww about 2 hours before the qt closed that he should switch from Faust to lio and he said he would try. Personally I feel like jimmm would accept the swap if he did it then

it was after the deadline.  I'm pretty sure Jimmmmm posted 9:30 AM deadline, and I think us talking in the QT was after that.  I posted the change in my QT  while we were talking and Jimmmm said I missed it.

Also, I really thought you would die, but I guess I was alone there.

[Beyond Awesome]

Fine, geniuses
Vote: PPS

If you insist.

Vote: PPS

[Witherweaver]

be careful. if pps is not scum they can quick hammer.

[liopoil]

seriously guys, stop voting.

[Witherweaver]

jimmm said the town word people were chosen after night kill.  I asked Iin QT. it should not be Faust.

[Beyond Awesome]

unvote

[Beyond Awesome]

jimmm said the town word people were chosen after night kill.  I asked Iin QT. it should not be Faust.

WW is correct. Hydrad can confirm. So, there should be a town person that knows the word, but hasn't said it yet for whatever reason.

[Hydrad]

Surprise I know the word. Sorry for delaying but I was hoping scum would say it for some cred or something so I would know who has it. I really feel like we got unlucky as this will make me a IC when I feel like everyone thought I was pretty much an IC already.

Anyways I don't think there is much point in keeping the word a secret but prepare to be underwhelmed.

loyalty

That's all I got so does anyone have ideas on how this can help?

[Hydrad]

Also this may be to late but I think it might be a ww/BA team after pps claim is verified unless it's a factional power ww is the only one that hasn't really been verified. Plus I feel like he really should of expected Faust to die.

I will say it feels like BA and ww interactions are town but I feel like ww choices are the closest to scum we have.

[Archetype]

Well, Hydrad is an IC (unless someone counterclaims). I was really hoping one of BA/WW was staying quiet about knowing the word since that would clear both of them.

[Witherweaver]

I did not get the word.

hydrad. I promise you. it's not me. 

[Witherweaver]

i was  hoping me or BA would get as well. 

[Witherweaver]

I think it has to be PPS and Lio.

[Hydrad]

Also arch what made you give me the dice vendor?

[Witherweaver]

hydras why didn't you mention dice vendor in QT?

[Hydrad]

hydras why didn't you mention dice vendor in QT?

Incase you were scum I didn't want to give you more info I guess. I don't know what the info would do if you were town as I don't think there is any powers or something that would affect it. But if your scum I figure I should keep you away from as much info as possible.

[Witherweaver]

okay. I guess it's moot now that you're confirmed.

I'm ready to vote Lio. Or PPS.  I don't think its Arch but I have doubts.

I know you have to consider me, but I think its clear from all the info you have that BA and I could not have set this up.  do you think it can be Arch?

[Archetype]

Alright, so let's look at the scenarios:

Because...

DUM DUM DUM

Conspiracy theory:

The team is you/PPS. One of you has the ability to give out dice, the other has the ability to destroy dice.  PPS's is obviously the fake one.  He had to come up with a reason to almost never use it, so he found a way for it to be anti-town.  Note in particular how quick PPS was to jump on BA's ability confirming his own, where really that is not possible.

You would expect to maybe have to prove the fake claim once, and in that case you two can coordinate to make it believable, since there really *IS* a role that gives dice.  So come to tonight.  I receive dice, allegedly from PPS. I'm also conveniently attacked by an Orc that messes with my rolls somehow, so I'm unable to confirm if I'm alternating between d8 rolls and d12 rolls.  You claim to target BA, and I know he must be telling the truth when he say he received none.  The only possibility is that the "die destroyer" random d6 exactly happened to match the d12 result for number of dice received.  This I consider very unlikely.  I would work out the probability, but it's moot as Archetype claimed to have lost dice.

So why claim you targeted BA instead of Faust?  Well, you killed Faust, and you would know that claiming to give him dice would be super suspect.  So choose one of the masons.  There's already a "WW/BA scum plot" theory floating around, so if it falls back to "someone is lying" people may side against us.  Why choose Archetype to get hit?  Well, now you have a three-way lying circle: You, Archetype, BA.  Anyone that can't convince themselves that BA and myself are scum may have an easier time convincing themselves that Archetype is. 

Note in particular all the side comments of "oh, well, unless it really is WW/BA".

I like this is really, really plausible. A scumteam of liopoil/dice destroyer makes the most sense because of the mirrored actions. Liopoil is trying to push that it's a factional power, which I don't think it is. I think he's trying to cover up PPS's role. WW has a good point about how liopoil was trying to soft bus PPS the day before.

Second possible scenario. You actually did give dice to WW. Arch and Lio are partners, and dice destroying is factional. Lio knows you were telling the truth about your role, so decides to not give anyone else dice to set you up as the mislynch and claims to have given me dice. Arch then claims he was stolen from for WIFOM reasons.

Second to least likely scenario. Not barring the fact that I'm Town, but I really do not think dice destroying is factional.

third scenario: arch and pps are partners, I gave to BA and they got destroyed them. Or I was bus driven. Or roleblocked. Or whatever happened.

I can't even call this a scenario. This is too farfetched.

fourth scenario: ww and BA are partners, I gave to BA, he lied.

I am a bit more apprehensive about BA and WW after ashersky flipped Town. Ash also asked that we reconsider them when he flips. So, not as certain that WW/BA are Town, but I think the more likely scenario is that PPS/liopoil are scum. I'll be have no access for the next 3 days, and then from Monday to Friday the next week. I'll be sure to roll some dice and plop a vote down before I leave.

PPE: 5

[Witherweaver]

Also, no one has been able to provide any explanation at all as why we would be given psuedonyms for the QT if we were not Masons.  We didn't use them last night. 

The PPS/Lio theory is the best explanation I have for everything that has happened.

Archetype: Why didn't you play dice yet?

PPE: Arch

[Archetype]

Also, no one has been able to provide any explanation at all as why we would be given psuedonyms for the QT if we were not Masons.  We didn't use them last night. 

The PPS/Lio theory is the best explanation I have for everything that has happened.

Archetype: Why didn't you play dice yet?

PPE: Arch

I'll put in my order to roll now. Depending on when Jimmmmm gets on/if I have time in the morning, I may not have time to actually play one until Sunday or Saturday afternoon.

[Witherweaver]

Well, I want to vote PPS to test Arch's townieness, but it blows the game if it's Arch/Lio.

Can anyone convince me that isn't possible?

[Hydrad]

Well, I want to vote PPS to test Arch's townieness, but it blows the game if it's Arch/Lio.

Can anyone convince me that isn't possible?

I don't think it's worth the risk. We should think about this more I think

[Witherweaver]

Well screw it.  It's extremely anti-town to vote for yourself at LyLo.

Vote: PPS

This is L-1.

[Witherweaver]

Unvote

[Witherweaver]

Okay, what are your thoughts?

[Witherweaver]

But a town player does not vote for himself here. 

[Hydrad]

But a town player does not vote for himself here.

I'm still new but why would scum either. Also I think BA unvoted

[Witherweaver]

Or.. what if Lio is Loved?

If we lynch scum!PPS tonight then we're at 4-1.  PPS kills one of us we're 3-1.  4 players, 3 to Lynch.  Loved Lio takes 4, we get end gamed.

Could that be why PPS is voting for himself?

[Witherweaver]

But a town player does not vote for himself here.

I'm still new but why would scum either. Also I think BA unvoted

Oh okay, I missed it.

[Hydrad]

It feels almost like frustrated town who feels like he's going to die anyways since everyone wants to vote for him

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Liopoil is the right move here.

I'm as sure of this as I am of nothing else that has ever happened in my life.

But really, I think that's right.

[Witherweaver]

It feels almost like frustrated town who feels like he's going to die anyways since everyone wants to vote for him

I think that's what he's going for.

[Hydrad]

Also does it matter if lio is loved or not for him to die? If he is we can't kill lio tonight anyways

[Hydrad]

If scum is loved we have to hope we get a one time big to kill one of them. Otherwise this game is already over

[Hydrad]

Vig*

[Witherweaver]

Also does it matter if lio is loved or not for him to die? If he is we can't kill lio tonight anyways

I didn't consider it.. 4-2, 6 players, 4 to lynch.. Loved!scum!Lio can still be lynched, right?

[Witherweaver]

No I'm dumb.. 5 to lynch with Loved.

[Witherweaver]

So we'd be end gamed if scum was loved?

[Hydrad]

So we'd be end gamed if scum was loved?

Yes unless we get a vig or something we have lost already. That's why Faust was so worried about yesterday's vote

[Witherweaver]

I see.  Well, Faust was telling the truth, so PPS really was out of dice yesterday.  Even if Love Doctor visited him last night he couldnt' have used it. 

But then.. hm.. either he lied Day 1 or it's Lio/Arch.

[Witherweaver]

How many dice to PPS claim to lose D1?

[Beyond Awesome]

Vote: Liopoil is the right move here.

I'm as sure of this as I am of nothing else that has ever happened in my life.

But really, I think that's right.

I am pretty sure Lio is scum. We can lynch Lio today and ask PPS to send someone more dice. If he doesn't then we will know that PPS was the dice destroyer all along.

[Archetype]

Play: 9

Play: 1

I want to reread WW/BA and PPS/liopoil with the view of them being partners before placing a vote because this could be game over if I'm wrong about BA/WW.

[Jimmmmm]

Archetype plays a 9
Score: 25 23

Archetype plays a 1
Score: 26 24

[Beyond Awesome]

So, does that kill the monster?

[Beyond Awesome]

Why is the score 26?

[Jimmmmm]

Why is the score 26?

Because your mod is arithmetically challenged.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay guys, Lio and PPS are telling the truth about being able to give dice. I checked my QT again, and it ends up I got a new message at 6:03PM, 5 hours after Jimmm gave me the PPS results. Jimmm said apologies that his last update did not go through for some reason and it shows that my supply of dice went up to 8. So, a mistake happened on the mods part, and my change in supply happened in the middle of the day and not when the day started.

So, that means that the dice destroying ability is factional.

[Beyond Awesome]

Mod, if it is not too much to ask. Can you please state that I indeed get an update from you during the day did not occur before day start? I don't want people calling me a liar for something that was not my fault.

[Jimmmmm]

I can't confirm or deny anything that has happened in any QT.

[Jimmmmm]

Also, no action will be taken in this situation, but please no quoting timestamps, real or fabricated.

[liopoil]

Okay guys, Lio and PPS are telling the truth about being able to give dice. I checked my QT again, and it ends up I got a new message at 6:03PM, 5 hours after Jimmm gave me the PPS results. Jimmm said apologies that his last update did not go through for some reason and it shows that my supply of dice went up to 8. So, a mistake happened on the mods part, and my change in supply happened in the middle of the day and not when the day started.

So, that means that the dice destroying ability is factional.

So scummy! I mean, possible, but also scummy

[liopoil]

yeah, if scum is loved it's basically over, so I think we assume they aren't loved.

Sheesh, why so certain I am scum? You've been wrong multiple times about things you were sure of already, and you're wrong again. A bit more of an explanation would be nice...

[pingpongsam]

yeah, if scum is loved it's basically over, so I think we assume they aren't loved.

Sheesh, why so certain I am scum? You've been wrong multiple times about things you were sure of already, and you're wrong again. A bit more of an explanation would be nice...

This is rich coming from the guy who has tunneled the entire game with zero case.

[liopoil]

Okay guys, Lio and PPS are telling the truth about being able to give dice. I checked my QT again, and it ends up I got a new message at 6:03PM, 5 hours after Jimmm gave me the PPS results. Jimmm said apologies that his last update did not go through for some reason and it shows that my supply of dice went up to 8. So, a mistake happened on the mods part, and my change in supply happened in the middle of the day and not when the day started.

So, that means that the dice destroying ability is factional.

Wait, was it there when you checked the first time, when I claimed to have given you dice? How did you miss that?

It feels like a really easy thing to say as scum to me.

Also, ww, I misread your last post, you mean that you aren't sure at all that I am scum. Well why are you voting in mylo then?

We could no lynch, but that just kills our IC and we might need that extra town member, so let's not.

[liopoil]

yeah, if scum is loved it's basically over, so I think we assume they aren't loved.

Sheesh, why so certain I am scum? You've been wrong multiple times about things you were sure of already, and you're wrong again. A bit more of an explanation would be nice...

This is rich coming from the guy who has tunneled the entire game with zero case.

zero case is false, and I never said I was certain. And also, you actually ARE scum, so it's quite a bit different... but ww was actually saying how uncertain he was in that post

[Witherweaver]

Okay guys, Lio and PPS are telling the truth about being able to give dice. I checked my QT again, and it ends up I got a new message at 6:03PM, 5 hours after Jimmm gave me the PPS results. Jimmm said apologies that his last update did not go through for some reason and it shows that my supply of dice went up to 8. So, a mistake happened on the mods part, and my change in supply happened in the middle of the day and not when the day started.

So, that means that the dice destroying ability is factional.

Wait, was it there when you checked the first time, when I claimed to have given you dice? How did you miss that?

It feels like a really easy thing to say as scum to me.

Also, ww, I misread your last post, you mean that you aren't sure at all that I am scum. Well why are you voting in mylo then?

We could no lynch, but that just kills our IC and we might need that extra town member, so let's not.

is there an issue of which I'm unaware?

how could I be certain?

[liopoil]

I misread your post originally and thought you were saying you were certain. I realize now that is not at all what you said. Voting in mylo isn't awful, but as soon as there is a wagon of two quickhammers are a thing. So it's sort of like L-1... I just think it's something one should be cautious of. For instance if this wasn't mylo I would be voting for pps right now. It's still early in the day, plenty of stuff could come up.

There is the mentalist, grim reaper, love doctor, and dice vendor, yes? Arch claimed where he sent two of those, right? Has that been confirmed? pps claimed the grim reaper... love doctor, anyone?

[Witherweaver]

I misread your post originally and thought you were saying you were certain. I realize now that is not at all what you said. Voting in mylo isn't awful, but as soon as there is a wagon of two quickhammers are a thing. So it's sort of like L-1... I just think it's something one should be cautious of. For instance if this wasn't mylo I would be voting for pps right now. It's still early in the day, plenty of stuff could come up.

There is the mentalist, grim reaper, love doctor, and dice vendor, yes? Arch claimed where he sent two of those, right? Has that been confirmed? pps claimed the grim reaper... love doctor, anyone?

I'm the only one voting for you, though, so unless you decided to make yourself Hated quickhammer isn't a risk.

PPS was, however, in quickhammer range for a bit.  And if PPS is town, it has to be you/Archetype.  I guess this is null, though, because Archetype wasn't online when you were there (and a 2-player quickhammer is probably hard to coordinate anyway).

So PPS is still voting for himself.. why do you think that is?

[Witherweaver]

Also does it matter if lio is loved or not for him to die? If he is we can't kill lio tonight anyways

Ha, just saw this.  Ash would call it a scumslip.

[Witherweaver]

Okay guys, Lio and PPS are telling the truth about being able to give dice. I checked my QT again, and it ends up I got a new message at 6:03PM, 5 hours after Jimmm gave me the PPS results. Jimmm said apologies that his last update did not go through for some reason and it shows that my supply of dice went up to 8. So, a mistake happened on the mods part, and my change in supply happened in the middle of the day and not when the day started.

So, that means that the dice destroying ability is factional.

So scummy! I mean, possible, but also scummy

And how is this possibly scummy?

[Witherweaver]

Other than it destroying my beautiful conspiracy theory 

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay guys, Lio and PPS are telling the truth about being able to give dice. I checked my QT again, and it ends up I got a new message at 6:03PM, 5 hours after Jimmm gave me the PPS results. Jimmm said apologies that his last update did not go through for some reason and it shows that my supply of dice went up to 8. So, a mistake happened on the mods part, and my change in supply happened in the middle of the day and not when the day started.

So, that means that the dice destroying ability is factional.

Wait, was it there when you checked the first time, when I claimed to have given you dice? How did you miss that?

It feels like a really easy thing to say as scum to me.

Also, ww, I misread your last post, you mean that you aren't sure at all that I am scum. Well why are you voting in mylo then?

We could no lynch, but that just kills our IC and we might need that extra town member, so let's not.

No. That info was not there when I was asked to double check my QT. This was a mistake on the mods part.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, anyway, what strikes me odd is that when I first stated I did not get any dice, lio was not immediately casting suspicion on me. But, once I do gain dice, he is calling me scummy. If I were scum, I would have kept that info to myself and used it to get either a lynch on PPS or lio. No reason for me to post that if I were scum.

What I find scummy is that lio wasn't calling for my head when I did not gain dice. If I were town, and I had the ability to give someone dice, I would be very, very suspicious of the person who just claimed to not get anything.

[liopoil]

So, anyway, what strikes me odd is that when I first stated I did not get any dice, lio was not immediately casting suspicion on me. But, once I do gain dice, he is calling me scummy. If I were scum, I would have kept that info to myself and used it to get either a lynch on PPS or lio. No reason for me to post that if I were scum.

What I find scummy is that lio wasn't calling for my head when I did not gain dice. If I were town, and I had the ability to give someone dice, I would be very, very suspicious of the person who just claimed to not get anything.

What? I totally was suspicious of you when you claimed not to have gotten dice:

BA check your QT.  Did you get dice?

No. I did not get dice.

Uhh, well, you're probably scum then? Or scum interfered somehow, which would be strange considering nothing like that has happened before.

BA check your QT.  Did you get dice?

No. I did not get dice.

You're 100% sure?  No change at all?

Trying to tell him to abort plan implicate liopoil?

But the thing was, I didn't see why you would do that as scum, and there was another plausible explanation.

Your changing your claim is certainly scummy. It's certainly possible that Jimmmmm messed up, but it also makes sense that you are scum. And you do want to change your claim, because you came off scummier. Even if you hadn't gotten dice, my claim is still confirmed, so you seem like the more likely liar.

Heck, even if Jimmmmm messed up, he could still be scum.

[Witherweaver]

huh?  Why would BA possibly admit this as scum?  Keeping the whole thing quiet implicates you much more, because it gives credence to the scum partner plot I was coming up with.

[Witherweaver]

I also agree that Lio's reaction to BA not claiming to receive dice was off.  If I was town Lio it would have made me 92ish% sure BA was scum, and I would have been much more adamant.

[Beyond Awesome]

I also agree that Lio's reaction to BA not claiming to receive dice was off.  If I was town Lio it would have made me 92ish% sure BA was scum, and I would have been much more adamant.

Exactly. He should have been calling for my head.

[Beyond Awesome]

third scenario: arch and pps are partners, I gave to BA and they got destroyed them. Or I was bus driven. Or roleblocked. Or whatever happened.

fourth scenario: ww and BA are partners, I gave to BA, he lied.

I think the third scenario is more likely.

So, this is after I post that I did not get any dice. He finds the scenario of PPS and Arch being scum partners more likely to be scum than WW and I. Now, if I were town, and I just gave someone a bunch of dice, I would be calling for their lynch right there and accuse them of lying. Lio does accuse me, but he is hardly calling for my lynch. Lio's reaction is like scum that knows we are town and doesn't quit know how he should react as if he were town. And, that is how he has been this whole game. He comes across as forced town and not authentic town.

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, Hydrad, you should roll. I would roll, but we have seen what the attack does. We only need a 1 to defeat the monster.

[Hydrad]

Also, Hydrad, you should roll. I would roll, but we have seen what the attack does. We only need a 1 to defeat the monster.

Well you see there was one more thing I lied about in the QT. I was going to post it sooner but forgot. I actually have 0 dice. I said I had 4 but that was incase you are scum I was hoping you would dice destroy me.

[Hydrad]

Also it looks like I'm the only one even considering the it could be a ww/BA team. Does everyone else think they are town?

[pingpongsam]

I feel it is a 50/50 shot between WW/Be and lio/arch.  I do not feel one pair to be more or less likely than the other.  I will sheep hydrad.
Unvote

[liopoil]

Yes, because the arch-pps team a) makes much more sense, as they are scummy and ww/ba not quite as much given the mason thing, b) you lying as scum like that doesn't make much sense, and c) there are other explanations. Sure, maybe ww would call for their heads 92% of the time, but I think he would be wrong to do so 92% of the time.

[liopoil]

Re: Hydrad, I'm certainly considering it. I lean the other way right now, but their latest actions really look like pushing me as their last mislynch.

[Witherweaver]

Yes, because the arch-pps team a) makes much more sense, as they are scummy and ww/ba not quite as much given the mason thing, b) you lying as scum like that doesn't make much sense, and c) there are other explanations. Sure, maybe ww would call for their heads 92% of the time, but I think he would be wrong to do so 92% of the time.

Huh?  You sent BA dice, he reported not to get any.  Only explanations barring edge cases are he's lying or he lost exactly the same amount of dice that you gave him, which would happen about 8% of the time given both you and die destroyer targeted BA (right?).  So 92% chance of scum, which I'd say is pretty good.  I guess you can assign some more percent to edge cases, but still town!you should be pretty confident that BA is scum.

[liopoil]

Not quite. there is also a probability that scum!BA lies, and it is pretty low. The two scenarios of the above happening and the 8% thing are what results in this. So, in what percent of cases where BA claims to have gotten no dice is he scum? Much less than 92%. Throw in some other edge cases and some reads, and I think it goes below 50%.

[Beyond Awesome]

Lio, have you rolled yet?

[Witherweaver]

Hydrad, how did you end up with 0 dice?  Do you have anything stored?

[Witherweaver]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Ichi gets all the heat for his roll but none for volt? vote: volt.

ACtually makes me think ichi is townier because the scums are going to put more pressure on a townie than on a partner.

Very early post by Mairchetype.  Does Volt's scum buddy do this to him when no one else has paid much attention to it?

[Witherweaver]

Mairchetype never changes his vote from Volt at all.  First on the wagon and rides it until lynch.

[Witherweaver]

Weird, both Mairchetype's double rolls have been high-low:

Play: 11

Play: 3

Play: 9

Play: 1

I want to reread WW/BA and PPS/liopoil with the view of them being partners before placing a vote because this could be game over if I'm wrong about BA/WW.

Arch, can you provide any insight to this?  I don't remember the details of how your roll works and haven't found the post.. do you get extra dice that are not in your supply to roll, or can you just play an extra one from the dice that you rolled?

[Witherweaver]

Haha this gem from Ash:

Lio/PPS are the remaining scum.  This D2 gambit by PPS is classic scum!pps.  Lio is hiding and hoping we'll forget.

I'll take my town MVP now.

vote: liopoil and pps

[Witherweaver]

I'm not using that as evidence or anything.. Ash pretty much heavily suspected everyone still alive at this point.. even going after Hydrad for the Beastmaster thing.  And his early reads were heavily Lio and Mail-Mi, then PPS started to move into them.  In particular:

At least you aren't uselessly refusing to vote for anyone besides mail-mi today anymore.

I still want to lynch mail-mi.

I think mail-mi/PPS/liopoil or mail-mi/liopoil/hydrad at this point.

[Witherweaver]

Okay found it:

I don't really care about the order for claiming.

I'm a Tactician. If I didn't roll or play any dice the previous day, the number of dice I roll the following is doubled. I may also play or store second die.

Fun fact: This is the exact same role I had the first game

Do you have the same QT as Mail-Mi's?  Can you reveal how many dice you rolled those times? (Unless there is a compelling reason not to.)  I'm a little confused why there's no mid ones.

Okay, today's is odd only.  So 9 and 1.. no 3,5,7, 11 in how many dice?  Possible, not all that unlikely unless he rolled a lot.  What was Mail-Mi's monster?  Only first instance of roll counts.  BA starts playing 5, Mail-Mi plays 11 and 3.  Maybe here he figured all rolls needed to be played anyway, so might as well play a low one, so stored some ones that were better than 3? 

I don't know, just weird that it had the same pattern both times.

Does that description mean you can play two rolls and store two rolls on the double day?  Or is it an exclusive or?

[Hydrad]

Hydrad, how did you end up with 0 dice?  Do you have anything stored?

The night before this I had 5 dice and a two stored. I had checked my qt right before the day started and didn't see any change. When the day started I played my stored 2 right away. After I did that I looked at my qt and saw 4 dice had been taken from me. So since I played the 2 I ended up with 0 dice and nothing stored

[Witherweaver]

Lio what's your flavor name?

Hydrad too.

[Hydrad]

Lio what's your flavor name?

Hydrad too.

I am the Tinkerer

[liopoil]

Lio what's your flavor name?

Hydrad too.

Already claimed this - Ambassador.

catching up now

[Witherweaver]

Anyone want to hear another crazy PPS theory?

[Witherweaver]

Actually never mind it doesn't pan out.

[Witherweaver]

Ooooh unless it does!  I'll type up crackpot theory when I get back tonight (much to PPS chagrin) if it still makes sense in my sleep-deprived head.

[Beyond Awesome]

Lio, have you rolled yet?

Okay. I will clarify my question. Lio, are you going to roll today or should I roll? From the attack, it looks like all dice I roll will have the same value, so I am best off rolling one die. So, there is a 50/50 chance I get a positive number.

[liopoil]

Lio, have you rolled yet?

Okay. I will clarify my question. Lio, are you going to roll today or should I roll? From the attack, it looks like all dice I roll will have the same value, so I am best off rolling one die. So, there is a 50/50 chance I get a positive number.

I am quite low on dice... in fact I only have 2 left. My stored die from yesterday was another 8, so that's no good.

I can roll, but I'm not sure whether to roll 1 or 2, and would also rather you rolled first in case you are scum. But obviously you would rather me roll first for the same reason, so hmmm.

[Beyond Awesome]

Lio, have you rolled yet?

Okay. I will clarify my question. Lio, are you going to roll today or should I roll? From the attack, it looks like all dice I roll will have the same value, so I am best off rolling one die. So, there is a 50/50 chance I get a positive number.

I am quite low on dice... in fact I only have 2 left. My stored die from yesterday was another 8, so that's no good.

I can roll, but I'm not sure whether to roll 1 or 2, and would also rather you rolled first in case you are scum. But obviously you would rather me roll first for the same reason, so hmmm.

No, I would rather have you roll first since essentially I can only roll 1 die. Rolling 2 dice is much better than being able to only roll 1.

[Beyond Awesome]

I mean, I could roll than 1 die, but I am pretty sure the attack makes dice values all the same. So, it is better if you roll.

[liopoil]

Lio, have you rolled yet?

Okay. I will clarify my question. Lio, are you going to roll today or should I roll? From the attack, it looks like all dice I roll will have the same value, so I am best off rolling one die. So, there is a 50/50 chance I get a positive number.

I am quite low on dice... in fact I only have 2 left. My stored die from yesterday was another 8, so that's no good.

I can roll, but I'm not sure whether to roll 1 or 2, and would also rather you rolled first in case you are scum. But obviously you would rather me roll first for the same reason, so hmmm.

No, I would rather have you roll first since essentially I can only roll 1 die. Rolling 2 dice is much better than being able to only roll 1.

Right, but what if I roll evens? 1/4 chance. If you make it, I don't need to risk it. If you don't make it, I risk it.

[Beyond Awesome]

Lio, have you rolled yet?

Okay. I will clarify my question. Lio, are you going to roll today or should I roll? From the attack, it looks like all dice I roll will have the same value, so I am best off rolling one die. So, there is a 50/50 chance I get a positive number.

I am quite low on dice... in fact I only have 2 left. My stored die from yesterday was another 8, so that's no good.

I can roll, but I'm not sure whether to roll 1 or 2, and would also rather you rolled first in case you are scum. But obviously you would rather me roll first for the same reason, so hmmm.

No, I would rather have you roll first since essentially I can only roll 1 die. Rolling 2 dice is much better than being able to only roll 1.

Right, but what if I roll evens? 1/4 chance. If you make it, I don't need to risk it. If you don't make it, I risk it.

And, what if I roll a 12? You have a better chance of rolling odds than I do. Also, even if you do roll evens, you will be able to select the lower value. In which case, I will roll and pray that I get lucky. But, statistically speaking, it is much better to have you roll first.

[pingpongsam]

Lio, have you rolled yet?

Okay. I will clarify my question. Lio, are you going to roll today or should I roll? From the attack, it looks like all dice I roll will have the same value, so I am best off rolling one die. So, there is a 50/50 chance I get a positive number.

I am quite low on dice... in fact I only have 2 left. My stored die from yesterday was another 8, so that's no good.

I can roll, but I'm not sure whether to roll 1 or 2, and would also rather you rolled first in case you are scum. But obviously you would rather me roll first for the same reason, so hmmm.

No, I would rather have you roll first since essentially I can only roll 1 die. Rolling 2 dice is much better than being able to only roll 1.

Um, no, if you roll one and do not like it you do not have to play it. If you roll two and like neither you screw us because you have to play one. Considering the attack appears to make all rolls the same there is no reason whatsoever to roll two.

[pingpongsam]

The bit about only rolling one applies to anyone with less than say, 3 or 4 dice to roll.

[Beyond Awesome]

Lio, have you rolled yet?

Okay. I will clarify my question. Lio, are you going to roll today or should I roll? From the attack, it looks like all dice I roll will have the same value, so I am best off rolling one die. So, there is a 50/50 chance I get a positive number.

I am quite low on dice... in fact I only have 2 left. My stored die from yesterday was another 8, so that's no good.

I can roll, but I'm not sure whether to roll 1 or 2, and would also rather you rolled first in case you are scum. But obviously you would rather me roll first for the same reason, so hmmm.

No, I would rather have you roll first since essentially I can only roll 1 die. Rolling 2 dice is much better than being able to only roll 1.

Um, no, if you roll one and do not like it you do not have to play it. If you roll two and like neither you screw us because you have to play one. Considering the attack appears to make all rolls the same there is no reason whatsoever to roll two.

I guess you are right. I was about to quote the first page and noticed that it says if you roll 2 or more, so I guess you are right. Alright, in that case, I will roll first.

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, I am about to see Guardians of the Galaxy. I will roll when I come back. Let's cross our fingers I roll an odd number.

[Witherweaver]

Okay crazy PPS theory:

So Swindler trashes the top card of your opponent's deck and makes them gain a card.. so gets rid of something and gives back something.  PPS gives out some number of d8's.  That's not quite Swindling... back when it seemed like he was changing d12's to d8's in some way it made more sense.  But now his role is simply to give out d8's that weren't there before.  That's not really a swindle. 

What if the Swindler targets a player and destroys 1d6 number of dice.  Then he gives a (possibly different) player 1d12 number of d8s.  That's more in line with trashing and gaining.  And gaining more of a lower die sort of does the wash thing (Swindler trashes and gains the same cost). 

I had a problem earlier, because if he has to do both parts of this ability, then we should have seen d8's given before.  But he could have just given them to his partner the entire time.. no real downside to doing this.. more dice for the NPC's, and you can simply just roll the extra ones.. there's no real harm between rolling 3d12 and 3d12+3d8.. the second is actually better because you have a greater chance for the numbers you want. 

Anyway, this was the result of me trying to think of a way for dice destroying to not be a factional ability.  Does not fit with Archetype's Tactician (would be a weird thing to tack on there), or Liopoil's Ambassador (which makes sense.. he loses a die (returns to supply) and someone else gains them).  Doesn't fit Hydrad's tinkerer (also makes sense, changes the die permanently), and anyway he's an IC now.  I know BA is telling the truth (his makes sense, too, Arms Inspector is exactly what he does), and I am as well (and it makes some sense; Saboteur turns a card into one costing three less, I render a player unable to roll any of the three highest scoring values, effectively turning all dX dice into d(X-3) that day). 

Well, like I said, crazy theory, but a bit bolstered by PPS claimed roll not doing any actual Swindling once he figured out what it is.  And just having factional dice destroying doesn't quite sit well with me.. I guess it's possible, but I don't know why it would.  It seems much more like it should be someone's role.

[Witherweaver]

If that theory were true, I'm not sure what it would say about partners.  Would slightly implicate someone that has played 8's and lowers, I guess.

[Witherweaver]

Interestingly enough, my roll says my target is unable to roll any of the three highest-scoring values.  I wonder if that's different than the three highest dice rolls.  I assumed it meant dX -> d(X-3), but the highest die roll might not correspond to the highest "score".  For this guy, the highest scoring values would be 7,9,11 on a d12. 

I guess I can ask in my QT.

[Witherweaver]

If it's the later it's kind of 100% negative utility, unless I want to frame someone.

[Witherweaver]

So he confirmed it's the latter.. whichever rolls, when played that day, would give the three highest scores.  So today 7, 9, 11.

Then this seems entirely negative utility. 

[liopoil]

And just having factional dice destroying doesn't quite sit well with me.. I guess it's possible, but I don't know why it would.  It seems much more like it should be someone's role.

I'm not sure why it doesn't sit well with you... sure your theory is possible, and if that's what it takes to convince you that pps is scum, so be it. But I think more likely it is a factional power and pps is just scum.

[Beyond Awesome]

I rolled. Just waiting on my result.

[liopoil]

I rolled. Just waiting on my result.

Still don't have it? Here, assuming you roll d12s:

Rolled 1d12 : 9, total 9

[liopoil]

Very nice. Now let's see if Jimmmmm replicates such a result.

I feel like we should be able to get a lot of information from rereading D4... it was so huge.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: liopoil

[Hydrad]

Just saying I'm still new so maybe it's fine. But I'm really scared of just voting people like this incase scum quick hammers

[Witherweaver]

He's at L-2, and if he's Town then PPS and Arch are scum.  So as long as no one else votes it's okay.

I agree we should take our time, though.  I still have more to reread.  plus we need to kill the monster.

[Hydrad]

Also just letting everyone know in a couple hours I'll be going camping and not 100% sure if I have Internet access or not. I will be back on Sunday though. Sorry for the inconvinence

[Witherweaver]

Okay.. I'll tell you where I am.  I have a really hard time reading Mail-mi/Arch as scum from the earlier days and a really easy time seeing Lio/PPS.  Rereading Day 4 (intimidating) could change this.

What is your outlook?

[Hydrad]

I think it's either a pps/x team or ww/BA team. I can't see a lio/arch team going in. So right now if I trusted just me I would go pps but I want to reread d4 especially as both Asher and Faust were so sure it was a ww/BA team that I have to look into it. I really don't want to get fooled here

[Beyond Awesome]

I rolled. Just waiting on my result.

Still don't have it? Here, assuming you roll d12s:

This dice roll may have been tampered with!
Rolled 1d12 : 9, total 9

I'm still waiting on the results.

[liopoil]

Just saying I'm still new so maybe it's fine. But I'm really scared of just voting people like this incase scum quick hammers

Yep. The other player voting for me is BA, right? If so, I think I'm okay... but guys, please be careful. It's just better if we talk for a while then vote for who we decided on.

I have a really hard time reading Mail-mi/Arch as scum from the earlier days and a really easy time seeing Lio/PPS.

Is this about mail-mi's D1 vote on voltaire? That was classic scum bussing. Putting a vote on a partner when it doesn't look like they are in too much danger of being lynched, and then once the wagon got going he couldn't safely move his vote. Plus his vote wasn't for the reasons that other people had, he never even commented on those. Speaking of D1 though, BA's position on the volt wagon is townie...

[liopoil]

pingpongsam, what do you think of archetype?

[Witherweaver]

Hm,  I'm not sure.  Maybe because that's not the way I usually bus. But he was arguing to take heat off of town! Ichi and onto his partner? On something that really could take off?  Doesn't seem so safe since Volt was the lowest roller. You could be right, but it's not so clear to me.

But not just that.. just his general approach here, and how Archetype was when he came in.. my gut read was town the whole time. 

[Jimmmmm]

Vote Count 5.1

liopoil (2): Witherweaver, pingpongsam

not voting (4): Archetype, liopoil, Hydrad, Beyond Awesome

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Evening begins on August 7 at 2pm forum time.
Day 5 ends on August 9 at 2pm forum time.

Target: 25
Score: 24

[Beyond Awesome]

I rolled. Just waiting on my result.

Still don't have it? Here, assuming you roll d12s:

This dice roll may have been tampered with!
Rolled 1d12 : 9, total 9

I'm still waiting on the results.

I rolled 1 die and got a 10. I am choosing not to play it. Lio, you need to roll.

[Witherweaver]

Lame.  You can store it though, right?

[Beyond Awesome]

Lame.  You can store it though, right?

No. I don't think so. It says I can play it or discard it. I don't think you can store if you just roll 1.

[Witherweaver]

That's probably true.

[liopoil]

I rolled. Just waiting on my result.

Still don't have it? Here, assuming you roll d12s:

This dice roll may have been tampered with!
Rolled 1d12 : 9, total 9

I'm still waiting on the results.

I rolled 1 die and got a 10. I am choosing not to play it. Lio, you need to roll.

Boooo. Well, okay, I'm rolling 2 dice now.

[liopoil]

Haven't gotten my results yet, I'm going VLA again, but will check in at least once a day.

[liopoil]

I rolled two 8s, exactly the same as yesterday... ugh. Play: 8

[liopoil]

I'd appreciate it if you guys didn't quicklynch me for this... because then we lose. I don't know how realistic that is to ask of this town

[Witherweaver]

this makes me sad

[liopoil]

It makes YOU sad? Well, if you're town, then yeah, you should be sad because we've probably lost now. But I expected more along the lines of "cool, lio is scum, let's lynch him".

[Witherweaver]

this is null for me.  You have motivation as scum, obviously, but you'd also have motivation as scum to play an odd roll to not get lynched.

[liopoil]

Well, okay... it would certainly not be null for me if I it were somebody else.

[pingpongsam]

That you played 2 dice was the scummy bit, if you even did that at all. For all we know you had that even die stored. A nice fat even die sure to make us lose that monster. But assuming you did what you said, it was without any good logic to have rolled 2 dice which forced you to play one.

[Beyond Awesome]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Ichi gets all the heat for his roll but none for volt? vote: volt.

ACtually makes me think ichi is townier because the scums are going to put more pressure on a townie than on a partner.

Very early post by Mairchetype.  Does Volt's scum buddy do this to him when no one else has paid much attention to it?

So, I have been thinking about this. Both PPS and Mail-Mi/Arch voted Volt. I doubt both of his partners would bus him. So, that means it is very likely for that reason Lio is scum, along with tons of other reasons that have been stated before. So, it looks like one of his partners bussed him, but which one?

Anyway, I am very certain Lio is scum at this point.

[Witherweaver]

huh, I didnt remember Lio was off wagon.  that's a good point.

[Jimmmmm]

liopoil plays an 8
Score: 16

[liopoil]

That you played 2 dice was the scummy bit, if you even did that at all. For all we know you had that even die stored. A nice fat even die sure to make us lose that monster. But assuming you did what you said, it was without any good logic to have rolled 2 dice which forced you to play one.

no, I was the only one who hadn't rolled, and we needed one more point. So it is better to roll 2 dice to have better odds of getting that odd number.

[liopoil]

play: 5

Catching up now.

Ichi gets all the heat for his roll but none for volt? vote: volt.

ACtually makes me think ichi is townier because the scums are going to put more pressure on a townie than on a partner.

Very early post by Mairchetype.  Does Volt's scum buddy do this to him when no one else has paid much attention to it?

So, I have been thinking about this. Both PPS and Mail-Mi/Arch voted Volt. I doubt both of his partners would bus him. So, that means it is very likely for that reason Lio is scum, along with tons of other reasons that have been stated before. So, it looks like one of his partners bussed him, but which one?

Anyway, I am very certain Lio is scum at this point.

pps's vote wasn't really bussing, because voltaire was already in huge trouble. As I've mentioned a million times by now, CONTEXT.

And if you look at me D1, I think voltaire was up there in my reads, and I would have voted for him if he hadn't been quicklynched. Obviously you'll just have to take my word for the latter bit, but I did post a lot about why his vote on me was scummier than anyone else's.

[pingpongsam]

pps's vote wasn't really bussing because PPS is town. As I've mentioned a million times by now, CONTEXT.

FTFY.

[pingpongsam]

Some might call that a scum slip seeing as whenever scum votes scum it is bussing regardless when in the vote succession that vote is cast. You saying my vote isn't bussing is knowledge of fact otherwise unknown to town.

[liopoil]

Isn't bussing in the sense that it doesn't look townie. Anyone could easily see that from the CONTEXT and that you instead tried to twist it otherwise is scummy.

[pingpongsam]

Isn't bussing in the sense that it doesn't look townie. Anyone could easily see that from the CONTEXT and that you instead tried to twist it otherwise is scummy.

I sure hope you are scum for your sake. The claims and certainty you've spewed forth about me would be humiliating for a townie in the end.

[liopoil]

Show me where I said I was certain. I continue to worry about ww/BA. Don't you?

Oh and no, I am not going to be intimidated by the thread of being humbled after the game. I'm just going to play to win, and winning means lynching the scum, and lynching the scum means making your points and pushing what you believe in through. Especially today as I am a threat to be lynched.

[liopoil]

huh, I didnt remember Lio was off wagon.  that's a good point.

Did you remember that, from your perspective if you are town, the only way there was scum on the e wagon is if pps is scum?

[liopoil]

Anyway, I am very certain Lio is scum at this point.

I've responded to every single one of your points, and from my biased perspective, quite adequately. What rules out the arch/pps team for you?

[liopoil]

Wait, witherweaver's role hasn't been confirmed, has it? How did I forget about that....

[pingpongsam]

Show me where I said I was certain. I continue to worry about ww/BA. Don't you?

Oh and no, I am not going to be intimidated by the thread of being humbled after the game. I'm just going to play to win, and winning means lynching the scum, and lynching the scum means making your points and pushing what you believe in through. Especially today as I am a threat to be lynched.

I am very concerned about WW/BA. For me, as I have said, it is 50/50. As it stands, they are playing a far better game of not looking like scum than you are. I have no intention of intimidating you. If you are scum you are doing great. If you are town, well, I hope you learn something about being so certain. You've declared me certain scum all game long and no matter the points I make which are quite astute, you just spin it as what scum would say, which is just rote at this point.

You asked earlier what I think about arch and the only answer I have to that is he hasn't done anything that doesn't look like he could be your scum partner. The magical masons are inextricably linked. Insinuating that since no such strong link exists between you and arch is disingenuous because the two of you have not been forced to claim such a link.

I could be swayed to vote WW/BA but not by you, only hydrad, who I trust to not have an anti town agenda.

[liopoil]

I wasn't insinuating anything... just wondering, because you hardly ever mention arch, and he's your partner if you're scum.

Why are you bothering to mention repeatedly how I will learn something if I am town then? I guess it doesn't matter much, it's just weird.

I could be swayed to vote WW/BA but not by you, only hydrad, who I trust to not have an anti town agenda.

Pretty much the same with me. Just when I was getting ready to vote for pps/arch, I realize that Witherweaver has been pushing that the dice destroyer is factional and also came up with a crazy pps dice destroyer theory, all while he is the only player who could reasonably be the dice destroyer! So I too am torn.

[Hydrad]

So basically this game comes down to my decision when it's the first game I joined... No pressure

[pingpongsam]

So basically this game comes down to my decision when it's the first game I joined... No pressure

Well you did get IC'd, so...

[Archetype]

Ok, back from v/la, but will be on another until Friday starting tommorow. Catching up now.

[Witherweaver]

I wasn't insinuating anything... just wondering, because you hardly ever mention arch, and he's your partner if you're scum.

Why are you bothering to mention repeatedly how I will learn something if I am town then? I guess it doesn't matter much, it's just weird.

I could be swayed to vote WW/BA but not by you, only hydrad, who I trust to not have an anti town agenda.

Pretty much the same with me. Just when I was getting ready to vote for pps/arch, I realize that Witherweaver has been pushing that the dice destroyer is factional and also came up with a crazy pps dice destroyer theory, all while he is the only player who could reasonably be the dice destroyer! So I too am torn.

Uh, I've been fighting the idea that the dice destroyed is factional.  if I had the ability, why would I want to oppose people thinking it's factional?

[Witherweaver]

huh, I didnt remember Lio was off wagon.  that's a good point.

Did you remember that, from your perspective if you are town, the only way there was scum on the e wagon is if pps is scum?

I didn't remember that.  That is also interesting.

[pingpongsam]

So, I asked myself, "self, you are town and thus you are willing to acquiesce to a known townie's direction that will decide the fate of the game... Self, if you were scum would you find this same willingness?" And so, I answered myself, "Good sir, I cannot say that I would, I do believe I would likely be trying to insure my scum win in some way". So, then I said unto myself, "Self, if such a stance is a town trait I would assign myself is it not also equally assignable to one such as liopoil who has apparently taken the same stance?"

Vote: Witherweaver

[Witherweaver]

So, I asked myself, "self, you are town and thus you are willing to acquiesce to a known townie's direction that will decide the fate of the game... Self, if you were scum would you find this same willingness?" And so, I answered myself, "Good sir, I cannot say that I would, I do believe I would likely be trying to insure my scum win in some way". So, then I said unto myself, "Self, if such a stance is a town trait I would assign myself is it not also equally assignable to one such as liopoil who has apparently taken the same stance?"

Vote: Witherweaver

You calling to lynch Lio and Lio calling to lynch you *IS* trying to ensure that your scum team wins.  One of you is 100% scum. If you both are, you're hoping this uberbussing will make us unwilling to lynch you tomorrow.  If only one of you is, then that person is simply going for the last mislynch.

[Witherweaver]

In fact if you're scum, defaulting to Hydrad's lead is not a bad play at all.  If Hydrad decides that it's me/BA, that's fantastic for you.  If he decides that it's between you, Lio, and Arch, then that's not bad either.  If he goes for the town player there, you win.  If he goes for scum, you still have a last chance tomorrow.

[Witherweaver]

Liopoil:

Day 1: Play 8
Day 2: Play 6
Day 3: Play 7
Day 4: Play 8
Day 5: Play 8

Also:

Play: 8

Yes, that was the lowest number of the two.

I rolled two 8s, exactly the same as yesterday... ugh. Play: 8

Not technically inconsistent, as 8 is the lowest of {8,8}, but usually one doesn't word it this way. 

[Hydrad]

Ok i'm going to finally give a post on my thoughts as I'm back to my computer now.

I'm torn between my gut instinct and my logical thinking right now.

gut says WW/BA are town but my logic thinks that they are scum. Here are my reasons

Interactions in QT and things feel super towny. If they planned it out as scum I'd be really impressed and this is why I keep thinking they are town.

Problem is, if PPS was scum I feel like he would of used his power, I don't see why scum would hold onto a power like that and never use it.

lio has been using his power in a super towny way. I see it as him potentially using it if he was scum because if he didn't and had to claim it would be super suspicious if he hadn't used it before. But even still he could of not used it the first day or to and claimed to use it on someone who died during the night.

March. This feels like the scummiest one in relation to his power usage just due to the fact on D2 his power hurt us more then helped and on today it really didn't do as much as I expected it to. This could be scum making it look like hes trying to help when hes really hurting us. But at the same time if you were town in his position on D2 you would of done the exact same thing. I would think hes scum more if I thought lio or PPS were scum but I can't really find a partner for him.

WW/BA WW is the only one who hasn't been able to confirm his ability as hes only targeted his partner and faust who died. The part of targeting faust really surprises me as the only way I could possibly see faust surviving the night was if he was scum. Also before the mason claim I was really ready to lynch BA as he was my top suspect for being scum.

Then there is also how positive ash and faust were that WW/BA were the scum team.

I'm really sorry WW/BA but at this moment I'm going with my logic side and not my gut feeling.


Also if we do end up lynching WW/BA I suggest the BA lynch as doesn't WW hurt us if he dies?

[Witherweaver]

If either BA or I are lynched we lose.  A mislynch today is game over.

Hydrad, think it through.  how does any scenario where BA and I are scum make sense as our reward for killing the monster?  Why would we be given pseudonyms?

Masons were our reward.  Reread the QT.  BA and I planning this is simply not a reasonable scenario. 

As I said many times last night, I expected you to die instead of Faust.  After we talked I changed my target to Lio.  But our discussion was after the submission of deadlines.  You can check this with time stamps.  Jimmm announcement during thread lock said 9:30 AM deadline.  He's also pretty technical about rules.  (Was it this game where the Vote : thing didn't count?)

Also, if I had a dice destroying ability, claiming something that can be proven false would be dumb, unless I had some big contingent plan. (A la what I proposed with PPS/Lio when it seemed Lio was lying.)

[Witherweaver]

Also , if I was scum a mislynch would win.  Arguing for any of PPS/Lip/Arch would be easy.  PPS himself was in hammer range.  Why would I put so much effort into trying to figure out which of the three it is?

Also, why come out as Masons yesterday if a mislynch wouldn't win it?  Why not wait until today?

Go see my recent scum games, Village , Homeland, Stack the Deck.  I'm confident logic and gut will tell you I'm town here.

[Witherweaver]

Also, BA and myself were both given dice last night AND attacked by roll-all-same-number monster.  Huge coincidence.  Scum!Us could choose to attack ourselves, but we could not know PPS and Lio would target both of us.

[Witherweaver]

Also, I really want to actually win a game as town, so I don't want to fuck this up.

[Witherweaver]

The only thing that's really stopping me from going gungho PPS/Lio is how quiet Arch has been since Day 4.  Reminds me of WoT, where he sat back and let town mess up until he could just come in and tell them who to lynch. 

[Beyond Awesome]

You're gut is right Hydrad. I have just about as much experience playing mafia as you do. This is only the second game I signed up for, and I have been in three all together, the third being that silly village game where not much happened. Anyway, what I want to say is that since playing mafia what I have noticed is that more often than not my gut is right and when I followed my logic or what someone else believed was scum, it ended up not being good for town.

Anyway, my gut is telling me right now that Lio is scum. I can see his partner being either Arch or PPS at this point. But, I am pretty sure lynching Lio is the best course for today, and then we can figure out who the last remaining scum player is.

[Beyond Awesome]

Liopoil:

Day 1: Play 8
Day 2: Play 6
Day 3: Play 7
Day 4: Play 8
Day 5: Play 8

Also:

Play: 8

Yes, that was the lowest number of the two.

I rolled two 8s, exactly the same as yesterday... ugh. Play: 8

Not technically inconsistent, as 8 is the lowest of {8,8}, but usually one doesn't word it this way.

That does fit your theory of PPS giving his partner D8s.

It should also be noted that every other player (except Volt) has rolled higher than 8 this entire game.

[Witherweaver]

You're gut is right Hydrad. I have just about as much experience playing mafia as you do. This is only the second game I signed up for, and I have been in three all together, the third being that silly village game where not much happened. Anyway, what I want to say is that since playing mafia what I have noticed is that more often than not my gut is right and when I followed my logic or what someone else believed was scum, it ended up not being good for town.

Anyway, my gut is telling me right now that Lio is scum. I can see his partner being either Arch or PPS at this point. But, I am pretty sure lynching Lio is the best course for today, and then we can figure out who the last remaining scum player is.

Going with what made sense instead of what felt right was what made me lynch Shraeye over Faust/ADK in my very first (and only other real thus far) town game, for the lose

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, though technically he should be alternating d8/d12.  But he could store high rolls. 

That set has just been amazingly average.  Nothing below  6 or above an 8. 

It would be good to compile everyone's rolls.

Archetype: Can you comment on this high/low double play?

[Beyond Awesome]

Liopoil:

Day 1: Play 8
Day 2: Play 6
Day 3: Play 7
Day 4: Play 8
Day 5: Play 8

Also:

Play: 8

Yes, that was the lowest number of the two.

I rolled two 8s, exactly the same as yesterday... ugh. Play: 8

Not technically inconsistent, as 8 is the lowest of {8,8}, but usually one doesn't word it this way.

That does fit your theory of PPS giving his partner D8s.

It should also be noted that every other player (except Volt) has rolled higher than 8 this entire game.

Another thing too is that if PPS is Lio's partner, it would explain how Lio is able to spend a die each day to give people dice. I would have imagined that after PPS claimed, he would have been the primary target of the "dice destroyer" to prevent his power from working. So, why hasn't that happened?

[Hydrad]

It should also be noted that every other player (except Volt) has rolled higher than 8 this entire game.

Just letting you know I have yet to ever have a dice over 7.

[Beyond Awesome]

It should also be noted that every other player (except Volt) has rolled higher than 8 this entire game.

Just letting you know I have yet to ever have a dice over 7.

Good point. I forgot about that. Anyway, I think aside from you and Lio, the two of you have not rolled higher than 8. Although, I investigated Lio the other day and he can roll up to 12 according to my investigation.

[pingpongsam]

Unvote

[liopoil]

Liopoil:

Day 1: Play 8
Day 2: Play 6
Day 3: Play 7
Day 4: Play 8
Day 5: Play 8

Also:

Play: 8

Yes, that was the lowest number of the two.

I rolled two 8s, exactly the same as yesterday... ugh. Play: 8

Not technically inconsistent, as 8 is the lowest of {8,8}, but usually one doesn't word it this way. 

I intentionally worded it that way, and I thought I claimed that I got 2 8s yesterday earlier? Better if scum thinks that I have a 9-12 stored than an 8.

BA has confirmed that I am can roll things higher than 8.

The D2 6 was the second best number I could have rolled, by the way, so it's not exactly low.

[liopoil]

Unvote

man, you've just been all over the place the whole game.

[liopoil]

The only thing that's really stopping me from going gungho PPS/Lio is how quiet Arch has been since Day 4.  Reminds me of WoT, where he sat back and let town mess up until he could just come in and tell them who to lynch. 

Exactly. If you're town, pps/arch is the way to go. I wish somebody would at least consider that, but no, everybody (read: you and BA) is saying "hmmm, is pps lio's partner, or is it archetype?"

of the three teams {lio-pps, lio-arch, arch-pps}, I do believe that arch-pps makes the most sense. Look at their interactions.

[liopoil]

What if scum!mail-mi's role gets more powerful if he manages to not roll today?

This actually seems very plausible because effectively not rolling as scum would take big balls.

Is there a precedent from the last game of such a role?

Not that I am aware of. I am thinking of it more from a design standpoint. It makes more sense to make a scum role that gets more powerful if they succeed in doing something public that would certainly be in scum's interest to be doing. The obvious angle is to claim you are going to be a more powerful Town role. Also, I was imagining how the role might get more powerful and I imagined one in which I steal dice (because I know dice were stolen) and if I can maintain a certain number of dice into the night I have access to a better power. Nothing about that sounds towny though I am Town with a directly anti-town role power.

Anyway, all that is to say that I think we should weigh the risk vs. reward in case mail-mi is scum. while a super powered Townie is always nice (maybe he loses all dice but becomes IC?) is is worth the risk of a super power scum? I, personally, think I'd rather mitigate the risk of a super powered scum being created at the loss of a potential super powered Townie.

Initially I was going along with mail-mi because I considered his forward and blatant claim to be ardent for scum to be making but now that I deliberate on it I am not so certain it wasn't the only real move he had to make as scum. It has to at least be considered.

Here's an example of what I mean. Look at this hedge.

[Archetype]

I started rereading the thread, but stopped because, man, this game is huge. So, I'm looking more at the end of Day 4 up until now and responding/pointing out anything I see.

I had some dice stolen.

lies!

Yes, it's an arch/pps scumteam. Or if this is true I guess it's BA/ww, but that doesn't make as much sense.

Why would you think I was lying?

liopoil still hasn't answered this.

Okay found it:

I don't really care about the order for claiming.

I'm a Tactician. If I didn't roll or play any dice the previous day, the number of dice I roll the following is doubled. I may also play or store second die.

Fun fact: This is the exact same role I had the first game

Do you have the same QT as Mail-Mi's?  Can you reveal how many dice you rolled those times? (Unless there is a compelling reason not to.)  I'm a little confused why there's no mid ones.

Okay, today's is odd only.  So 9 and 1.. no 3,5,7, 11 in how many dice?  Possible, not all that unlikely unless he rolled a lot.  What was Mail-Mi's monster?  Only first instance of roll counts.  BA starts playing 5, Mail-Mi plays 11 and 3.  Maybe here he figured all rolls needed to be played anyway, so might as well play a low one, so stored some ones that were better than 3? 

I don't know, just weird that it had the same pattern both times.

Does that description mean you can play two rolls and store two rolls on the double day?  Or is it an exclusive or?

I didn't think anything was weird with my dice. I rolled 4 dice (so, and got 1 9 1 4 2 10 10 12. When mail-mi rolled, he rolled 4 (so, and got 11 1 3 11 1 1 3 3. Though actually, now that I look back, mail-mi getting all odds is a little strange. I did save the 12, but I sacrificed the 11 that mail-mi saved to the dice vendor.

I wasn't insinuating anything... just wondering, because you hardly ever mention arch, and he's your partner if you're scum.

Why are you bothering to mention repeatedly how I will learn something if I am town then? I guess it doesn't matter much, it's just weird.

I rolled two 8s, exactly the same as yesterday... ugh. Play: 8

I could be swayed to vote WW/BA but not by you, only hydrad, who I trust to not have an anti town agenda.

Pretty much the same with me. Just when I was getting ready to vote for pps/arch, I realize that Witherweaver has been pushing that the dice destroyer is factional and also came up with a crazy pps dice destroyer theory, all while he is the only player who could reasonably be the dice destroyer! So I too am torn.

Uh, I've been fighting the idea that the dice destroyed is factional.  if I had the ability, why would I want to oppose people thinking it's factional?

WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM

I rolled two 8s, exactly the same as yesterday... ugh. Play: 8

This is ridiculously scummy. You really had no stored odds that you could've played?

The only thing that's really stopping me from going gungho PPS/Lio is how quiet Arch has been since Day 4.  Reminds me of WoT, where he sat back and let town mess up until he could just come in and tell them who to lynch.

Dude. I've been V/LA. I've considered asking for a replacement since I'll be gone this week, but instead I've decided to stay up late and put in the effort to try and win the game for Town.


Ok. Let's break this down. There are two possible scumteam: WW/BA or PPS/liopoil. Here's a couple of things to look at:


1) The Reward: This really only applies to WW/BA and is what links them together at all. They claim the reward is "Two random Town players are made Masons. The Masons, and two random other players, are then put into a QT. The Masons are given pseudonyms to speak under." The scum narrative for the reward is "Two Mafia players are put into a QT with two Town players. No one knows anyone's alignment and the Mafia are allowed to speak under pseudonyms". I originally thought the second possibility was unlikely, but after seeing two of the biggest supporters for a WW/BA lynch flip Town, I'm having second thoughts. If we're running with the second theory, scum have two options going into the following day when people start asking who was a part of the QT. They can lie and say they aren't Bob or Alice. This would result in the other two QT members claiming and assume that Bob and Alice are both scum since they didn't claim. This would make the other two QT members Masons and have some talk in the QT to go on to find scum. Or, scum could just claim being Bob and Alice. If they do, they may catch some heat for having pseudonyms. So, they could claim Masons instead. Maybe they thought Hydrad had figured out who they were, so they decided it would be best to just say they were Masons. Also, the fact that Ichimaru (one of the QT members) died and that WW initially denied being a part of the QT point more to WW/BA being scum. However, the first possibility seems more like a reward than the other. But, last nights reward was sort of weird that the second scenario isn't too farfetched.

2) The Powers: PPS and liopoil powers are both confirmed. I'm still wary of some sort of coordination between scum!PPS and scum!liopoil to cover up PPS's power, but I think(?) all of those theories have been debunked. None of liopoil's targets have been 'convenient' so to speak, but PPS saying that he hasn't used his power until last night has just got to be a lie. Swindler makes sense as a dice stealing role, but I'm pretty sure his role has been confirmed. I believe that BA is what he says he is. I find him much scummier than WW, but WW's claim itself is much scummier than his. Simply, we have one unclaimed "Dice Destroyer" most-likely-scum power and WW's power is unconfirmed. AND WW was the first person to coin the term "Dice Destroyer". AND WW's role name, Saboteur, sounds exactly like that: a dice destroyer. I wonder where WW came up with that term... There is the fact that the dice destroyer may be factional, but I find that to be a very unlikely factional power.

3) The Die Rolls:
Compiled below with when they played it.
Note: Day 3 the order of when people played was relatively randomly decided after the first three.

BA:
D1 - 12 (second)
D2 - 5 (first)
D3 - 8 (seventh)
D4 - 2 (second)
D5 - None

liopoil:
D1 - 8 (third)
D2 - 6 (tenth)
D3 - 7 (second)
D4 - None
D5 - 8 (fourth)

Witherweaver:
D1 - 8 (fifth)
D2 - 12 (ninth)
D3 - 12 (fifth)
D4 - None
D5 - 5 (second)

PPS:
D1 - 8 (sixth)
D2 - 8 (eighth)
D3 - 9 (sixth)
D4 - None
D5 - 9 (first)

Archetype:
D1 - None
D2 - 11, 3 (second)
D3 - 9 (tenth)
D4 - None
D5 - 9, 1 (third)

Hydrad:
D1 - 7 (eleventh)
D2 - 1 (eleventh)
D3 - 7 (fourth)
D4 - 2 (first)
D5 - None

I think scum wants to play near the beginning of each day. So, very protown for WW to playing such high numbers. liopoil and PPS are in that safe "not too protown and not too scummy" area and BA is fairly scummy for his rolls. PPS did roll all 6 dice that one day, which is scummy.

4) The Play: Arguably, how they've played is what matters the most. The die rolls and claims do provide facts, but since roles are assigned independent of alignment and die rolls are luck-based, how they use their vote and their words are what I have to go on the most. I'll be looking at their behavior and nothing else.

PPS: Very, very scummy. His vote jumps around all the time and he changes his reads very quickly. Reads perfectly like scum going from day to day trying to get the easiest mislynch. However, he's been so scummy to the point where it's started to come full circle where he really could be Town because he has been so scummy. He also kind of reads like a SK to me.

liopoil: Very much so in the background. Ash hit the nail on the head with his very acti-lurking behavior and it's a definite scum tactic. He's been trying to get PPS lynched for a while, which could easily be him trying to soft bus. I don't find him as scummy as PPS, but they make sense as partners.

WW: I've had a townread on him since I subbed in. He's been very protown with how he's approached voting records and seems genuine in trying to scumhunt and analyze every possibility. I'm very confused why Ichimaru Gin instead of himself was killed the night after he claimed, but Ichimaru was pretty firmly Town in my mind too.

BA: Very classic scum play. He lead the mislynches on both chairs and ash and changes his mind a lot just like PPS. However, he has put a lot of work into trying to puzzle everything out and analyze things just like WW. I find him a bit Townier than PPS, but still scummier than liopoil.

--

Rereading a bit; thought I'd pull this up for some Voltaire wagon analysis:

I agree with a reroll on chairs.

Looking back at the end of D1, trying to formulate some reads:

I don't see how this isn't town Volt here.  In Greater Idea he stood out to me as quite not-town Volt.. it really seemed like he was fabricating his town play.  I don't see that here, he just seems like regular Volt.  He could have learned from that, but I can't imagine voting for him today.

Would scum be this blatant about their partner? I could see someone like ash doing something like this, but not WW. I have a townread on him for this and his claim.

- I agree that there isn't really anything scummy about voltaire's play in general, however, I do have a scumread on him. Two reasons: 1) he rolled a 5, the lowest of everyone, and 2) The way he acted in regard to his vote on me was a bit strange.

Town points for this, especially considering the back and forth between him and Voltaire earlier in the day. I do find it scummy that despite expressing that read, he didn't end up on his wagon. So a slight scum read on him.

I'm not sure I follow why there's a big Voltaire wagon.  What am I missing?

This reads to me as scum logging onto to see that his partner has a big wagon on him. I don't think I understand what's going on enough with these whole dice changing scores thing to justify giving a scumread to chairs. But that's what I thought in game 1 when he played a 1. He did seem like his normal jokey non-hesistant town!self earlier D1, but I still have a scumread on him.

yuma looks like town, so that's good.

Ichi's most recent posts are also on the townier side.

How about vote: Voltaire? He just feels like scum. Will look at this in more detail after the weekend.

Oh yeah, that's L-2.

Getting a strong town vibe from this post; it just doesn't read as scum trying to bus his partner. Also, while following along in the speccy, I had a townread on faust (which is rare - I always think faust is scum). When I subbed in and reread, I still had a townread on him and voted for him. And with the dice distribution thing, he's easily my top town read.

Vote: Voltaire

That is L-1.

This, however, does read like scum trying to bus their partner. Especially with the follow up post:

Voltaire is way outside his meta. I believe it unlikely he and ashersky are partners so his flip will be largely informative.

I also find him suspicious D1 for his confusion on his own claim. That just screams scum forgetting what they fakeclaimed. Scumread here.

vote: voltaire

ashersky's surprise hammer! I'm leaning scum because I can't think of what town!ash could gain from this. I can see where he'd do it just to see what would happen but, like someone else said, I could see ash doing that as either alignment. Light scumread.

vote: voltaire

Wait, was that the hammer!?

Dude, fake surprise is scummy.

This is not "fake surprise". So you just hammered without giving Voltaire a chance to claim, without warning--this early in the day.

Getting a town vibe from this. Genuinely reads as the model townie freaking out when the day is cut short from a quickhammer. Also been getting just a general townie read from him that I can't really explain.

Sorry two last nooby questions. If 8 votes are reached is the person lynched right away or does he have time for last words to get out of it.

Also f I die but town still wins later does that count as a win for me still?

Hydrad seems sort of oblivious to what's going on. Town read for him.

Sorry two last nooby questions. If 8 votes are reached is the person lynched right away or does he have time for last words to get out of it.

Also f I die but town still wins later does that count as a win for me still?

He dies, but if the thread is not locked immediately, he can still say last words. Typically, from what I have seen from my previous game, we allow the player a chance to claim before lynching them. This is only my second game though.

I believe that if you die then, yes, assuming you are town, if town wins, you also win.

BA seems more concerned with the monster's results than the outcome of the lynch. So, slight town for that.

Vote Count 1.7 - Final

Ichimaru Gin (1): Voltaire
Beyond Awesome (1): Witherweaver
Voltaire (eight): mail-mi, Hydrad, Ichimaru Gin, XerxesPraelor, Beyond Awesome, faust, pingpongsam, ashersky
Witherweaver (1): chairs
pingpongsam (1): yuma
mail-mi (1): liopoil

not voting (1): BoxOfDog

With 14 alive, it took 8 to lynch.

Voltaire has been lynched. He was a Mafia Roleblocker.

I'm not putting a vote quite yet - I'll wait for some response, but I'll have one down before I leave tomorrow.

[liopoil]

This is outdated now, but then I thought that you/pps stole from BA and were taking advantage of it canceling out my giving to BA to claim to have been stolen from. But that doesn't matter now.

Why would I have a stored odd? You sure didn't, neither did plenty of others.

[Witherweaver]

I didn't claim to not be in the QT at first.  Hydrad was asking if there was another QT that did he wasn't in, so he asked people to claim that. And, Mason claim couldn't have been in response to things (like Hydrated/Ichi finding out who we are), because I said it right away.

Arch is doing a much better job of sounding town than either PPS/Lio.

[pingpongsam]

As one of the most dice poor people this entire game I managed to have a stored odd this day...

[pingpongsam]

Arch is doing a much better job of sounding town than either PPS/Lio.

Agreed, which leads me towards a BA/WW scum team.

[Witherweaver]

Arch is doing a much better job of sounding town than either PPS/Lio.

Agreed, which leads me towards a BA/WW scum team.

Haha

[pingpongsam]

Everyone likes to talk about how utterly scummy I have been yet the last 2 townies to die were quite certain I was town amongst the remaining. Why do you think that is?

[Witherweaver]

Everyone likes to talk about how utterly scummy I have been yet the last 2 townies to die were quite certain I was town amongst the remaining. Why do you think that is?

Here's Faust:

Okay, so let's see whose plays here make sense as scum:

ash: Trying to push a lynch when it's pretty clear that it won't go through? Claiming to have been visited by the Love Doctor and having done strange things that could easily be viewed as scummy for no reason? I think if he really was scum, he would have somehow tried to get PPS lynched by now. Especially if he's loved. And even if PPS is his partner. Also, how is the VT claim scummy again? I think scum would have preferred a fake claim. If scum!ash is just going to claim VT, why did he refuse to claim on D3?

PPS: His D1 play seriously makes no sense at all for scum. It's not grabbing towncred to claim an anti-town role. Also, do you think he was indeed targeted by "the dice destroyer" N0? Because that would kinda imply that he's not that role himself. Which means his partner has it, which means his partner has to be ash. And ash's not scum. Add in the way he claimed today - what reason would scum possibly have to make a full turnaround on how their role works? Add in that his posts when he first claims imply that his role actually works the way it does (he says, IIRC, that his role gives out "1d12". In the OP, it's stated that 1d12 means a random number between 1 and 12).

liopoil: Used his power in a very pro-town way so far. He is super hardcore tunneling PPS, which could be an epic bus (unlikely). If it's not, then that implies that he's not partners with PPS, which means his partner has to be ash, and ash is town.

Arch: Actually the one whose play fits a scum narrative best, lurking, sheeping claimed Masons, not providing much content of his own. But there is no partner for him, so I just have to assume he's anti-town town.

Essentially centered around you not being able to be dice destroyer, which I for one am not convinced of, and everyone else seems to think it's factional anyway, mooting the argument.  His town read on you is essentially because of your crazy claim.  Also what made me not want to vote for you yesterday.  Ash and Faust being town puts you way way way back on the table.

I don't really know why Ash thought you were town (hard to understand much of what he did).  I think towards the end he was pretty tunneled on me/BA.  I wouldn't say "quite certain", though.  He was actually voting for you at (or near) the end.

On a separate note, these were interesting:

liopoil's hedgy "oh I wish I didn't have to" crap was definitely super scummy.

If I wasn't so sure that WW/BA are scum, I'd point the finger at liopoil, who've I've suspected all game.

Lio/Arch is the team if the "masons" weren't lying.

So who are we congratulating?  That's endgame, right?

Come on guys, no reason to stretch this out.

So who are we congratulating?  That's endgame, right?

I say this because no way WW/BA run this masons gambit without being loved.

Also, shame on you liopoil -- you have been around long enough to know town!ash.

I will enjoy rubbing this in your faces for ages to come, your horrendous reads.  Everyone but faust.

(of course, on the off chance that faust is scum, his read doesn't count)

Seriously, this always happens when I'm town at an important juncture of a game.  Ridiculous.

gg scum masons and horrible game town believers

Somewhat clever on Ash's part, I guess, despite the lying as town thing.  He assumed scum was would have the game won with his mislynch and wanted to out them before it was clear he was Loved.

[liopoil]

Everyone likes to talk about how utterly scummy I have been yet the last 2 townies to die were quite certain I was town amongst the remaining. Why do you think that is?

gosh, that really does point to a ww/BA team

[Witherweaver]

Everyone likes to talk about how utterly scummy I have been yet the last 2 townies to die were quite certain I was town amongst the remaining. Why do you think that is?

gosh, that really does point to a ww/BA team

Indeed, good thing you've been hedging that for so long.

[Hydrad]

ok. I'm really sorry asher and faust but I'm going to try to trust myself.

I really think that ww/ba is town here and will feel terrible if they are the scum team.

Out of the 3 people left I think lio is the scummiest and I think its a lio/arch team more then a lio/pps team but not by much.

As of this moment I'm willing to lynch lio but I won't vote yet as I don't know the rules to play this late into the game.

[pingpongsam]

As I said, I am sheeping hydrad within the boundary of not voting myself. When I was voting myself I would have done so but I've decided that doing so was against the civility pledge; I was certainly doing so to cause grief to whoever my fellow townies are.  Once hydrad casts a vote I will follow with an echoing vote.

[Archetype]

Last post - I'm literally walking out the door.

My gut says that PPS/lio are the scum team, but logic points to WW/BA. The main thing that sways me to WW/BA being scum is WW's power not being confirmed and one scum power role missing. We could No Lynch, have WW target me with his power (I do have some dice left), and test it out tomorrow. However, if PPS is the dice destroyer he could target me and remove all my dice. And WW might not have any shots left. And Hydrad would surely die.

So, I think I'm going to Vote: BA. I think the day ends when I'm still V/LA, so I probably won't be able to move my vote*. There seems to be enough support for a liopoil lynch without my vote, so the day shouldn't end with an unwanted No Lynch.

*I may have access to a hotspot sometime during the week, so I may be able to check back in to get a lynch through.

PPE: 2. Looks like it's unlikely anyways that one of BA/WW will be lynched. Well, gg if you guys are scum.

[Witherweaver]

Well, if Archetype is town then it doesn't matter between Lio/PPS.

If Arch is scum, one of Lio/PPS is his partner.  I don't know what that implies.. if he tries to defend his partner here, then it's a big risk if we end up lynching his partner.  If he all-out busses his partner I think it looks risky, too.  So scum!Arch would probably want to group Lio/PPS together with similar reads.  Of course, with the Mason dichotomy and Hydrad IC, Lio/PPS are naturally grouped together from Arch's standpoint, because it has to be them or us. 

He calls both Lio/PPS scum in his last reads post, which is probably what I'd do in his shoes.  ..... okay this line of thinking is not going to go anywhere.

I think Lio is scum.  The only way I'm wrong is if the team is Arch/PPS.

So... let's reread to see if that's likely.  Not that I even know how to do that... I would expect, well, somewhat hedgy comments  early on, nothing strong unless it seemed safe or it came to a point where bifurcating would outweigh the risks of one getting lynched.. which was probably as soon as Voltaire got lynched.  So I've learned my logic is useless. 

Hydrad, I suggest we both reread to see if Arch/PPS team is possible (not if either are scummy individually).  If we can conclude it's not, then vote Lio.  If we conclude it's likely, I'd still suggest PPS over Arch.  I should post my thoughts before you, since I can assume you won't really be influenced by what I say, but you can't be sure I won't modify my thoughts after your post to placate you in some way.

BA, you should do the same thing.

Hold off on further votes until this is done.

When is the deadline for today?

[Beyond Awesome]

The deadline is the 9th, I think. So, we got time. I will do an Arch/PPS reread. I still think the odds of Lio being scum are really, really high at this point though.

[liopoil]

The deadline is the 9th, I think. So, we got time. I will do an Arch/PPS reread. I still think the odds of Lio being scum are really, really high at this point though.

nonsense. You have nothing to make you think this is so high.

[liopoil]

Well, if Archetype is town then it doesn't matter between Lio/PPS.

If Arch is scum, one of Lio/PPS is his partner.  I don't know what that implies.. if he tries to defend his partner here, then it's a big risk if we end up lynching his partner.  If he all-out busses his partner I think it looks risky, too.  So scum!Arch would probably want to group Lio/PPS together with similar reads.  Of course, with the Mason dichotomy and Hydrad IC, Lio/PPS are naturally grouped together from Arch's standpoint, because it has to be them or us. 

He calls both Lio/PPS scum in his last reads post, which is probably what I'd do in his shoes.  ..... okay this line of thinking is not going to go anywhere.

I think Lio is scum.  The only way I'm wrong is if the team is Arch/PPS.

So... let's reread to see if that's likely.  Not that I even know how to do that... I would expect, well, somewhat hedgy comments  early on, nothing strong unless it seemed safe or it came to a point where bifurcating would outweigh the risks of one getting lynched.. which was probably as soon as Voltaire got lynched.  So I've learned my logic is useless. 

Hydrad, I suggest we both reread to see if Arch/PPS team is possible (not if either are scummy individually).  If we can conclude it's not, then vote Lio.  If we conclude it's likely, I'd still suggest PPS over Arch.  I should post my thoughts before you, since I can assume you won't really be influenced by what I say, but you can't be sure I won't modify my thoughts after your post to placate you in some way.

BA, you should do the same thing.

Hold off on further votes until this is done.

When is the deadline for today?

Thank you. It is indeed very likely the team.

I do still think arch/pps is the scumteam more likely than ww/BA though, just because they are simply scummier and I can't get past them being in the town reward and all.

Vote: pingpongsam

Arch is just as scummy at this point, especially since I know they have the same alignment, so I'd lynch there as well.

How does archetype call me and pps scummy, then vote for BA?

[liopoil]

Hydrad, why am I so scummy? Nobody has actually come up with anything, just bad reasoning here and there which I've addressed. I am NOT going to let myself be mislynched and lose the game like this.

[liopoil]

Everyone likes to talk about how utterly scummy I have been yet the last 2 townies to die were quite certain I was town amongst the remaining. Why do you think that is?

gosh, that really does point to a ww/BA team

Indeed, good thing you've been hedging that for so long.

What? Sure, I hadn't made up my mind between ww/BA and arch/pps, but neither had arch or pps! (replacing arch/pps with the other possible team from town!them's perspective.)

[Hydrad]

I will say this. I don't really see a possibility of lio/pps being the scum team. So if we believe that we can just lynch arch as I feel hes scum from one of the team members. I guess its because I'm dead tomorrow so I want to find his partner too.

[Witherweaver]

I will say this. I don't really see a possibility of lio/pps being the scum team. So if we believe that we can just lynch arch as I feel hes scum from one of the team members. I guess its because I'm dead tomorrow so I want to find his partner too.

Why is that?  I see them as the more likely one.

[Witherweaver]

Also realize, you're not necessarily dead tomorrow.  If we lynch correctly, then we have three IC's tomorrow, so any of us can die.  If we choose wrongly, we lose. 

[Hydrad]

Also realize, you're not necessarily dead tomorrow.  If we lynch correctly, then we have three IC's tomorrow, so any of us can die.  If we choose wrongly, we lose.

Ah ya I guess thats true.

[liopoil]

I will say this. I don't really see a possibility of lio/pps being the scum team. So if we believe that we can just lynch arch as I feel hes scum from one of the team members. I guess its because I'm dead tomorrow so I want to find his partner too.

Sure, Vote: Archetype

[liopoil]

I will say this. I don't really see a possibility of lio/pps being the scum team. So if we believe that we can just lynch arch as I feel hes scum from one of the team members. I guess its because I'm dead tomorrow so I want to find his partner too.

Why is that?  I see them as the more likely one.

Yeah, because I "epicly bussed" or whatever?

[Witherweaver]

I will say this. I don't really see a possibility of lio/pps being the scum team. So if we believe that we can just lynch arch as I feel hes scum from one of the team members. I guess its because I'm dead tomorrow so I want to find his partner too.

Why is that?  I see them as the more likely one.

Yeah, because I "epicly bussed" or whatever?

Well it's probably biased a lot by a town read on Archetype and a scum read on both of you, and that this hardcore bussing could easily be staged.

I am trying to ignore all my previous biases while looking at the PPS/Archetype thing, though. 

[Archetype]

Checking in quickly.

How does archetype call me and pps scummy, then vote for BA?

I'm looking at the facts. We have one unclaimed power that can remove dice, and one power that is unconfirmed and has a role name that matches the aforementioned power pretty well. I dont believe that the dice destroyer power is factional, so unless someone can give me a narrative where PPS or liopoil is the dice destroyer, I have to go with the most logical choice.

[Witherweaver]

Checking in quickly.

How does archetype call me and pps scummy, then vote for BA?

I'm looking at the facts. We have one unclaimed power that can remove dice, and one power that is unconfirmed and has a role name that matches the aforementioned power pretty well. I dont believe that the dice destroyer power is factional, so unless someone can give me a narrative where PPS or liopoil is the dice destroyer, I have to go with the most logical choice.

I did that.  A Swindler doesn't just give stuff out.  A Swindler that takes away higher-valued die (d12s) and gives out lower-valued dice (d8s), well, that's kind of like Swindling.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, just rereading the thread, the thing is that there is little content from mail-arch in comparison to everyone else. In general, I find his postings very towny, but this might also be because he has not called much attention upon himself. So, I don't know here. He also has been VLA, a lot. If he were someone's partner, I can see him going either way being Lio's or PPS partner. I still feel safest lynching Lio though.

[liopoil]

So, just rereading the thread, the thing is that there is little content from mail-arch in comparison to everyone else. In general, I find his postings very towny, but this might also be because he has not called much attention upon himself. So, I don't know here. He also has been VLA, a lot. If he were someone's partner, I can see him going either way being Lio's or PPS partner. I still feel safest lynching Lio though.

This post doesn't say... anything. When evaluating the chance that one of us three is scum, you need to ask "could the scumteam be the other two players?" The player not in the least likely scumteam is the one we should lynch today. I don't know which of pps-lio or lio-arch is the less likely scumteam from the perspective of everyone else, but I do know that it sure isn't pps-arch, because that's the one that's true.

[liopoil]

Checking in quickly.

How does archetype call me and pps scummy, then vote for BA?

I'm looking at the facts. We have one unclaimed power that can remove dice, and one power that is unconfirmed and has a role name that matches the aforementioned power pretty well. I dont believe that the dice destroyer power is factional, so unless someone can give me a narrative where PPS or liopoil is the dice destroyer, I have to go with the most logical choice.

I did that.  A Swindler doesn't just give stuff out.  A Swindler that takes away higher-valued die (d12s) and gives out lower-valued dice (d8s), well, that's kind of like Swindling.

Yep. In a convoluted scenario it could be pps (the convoluted scenario isn't too unlikely though), in a even more convoluted scenario you could probably come up with a way that it could be me, and of course it could be factional.

[liopoil]

Would people be interested in me doing a reread of arch/pps, or would people just shrug it off as "lol he's biased!". I'd just post the stuff they say about each other, without an agenda.

Oh, and whatever happened with the love doctor? Nobody has it? I guess it could be bad for town to claim it if they got hated...

[Witherweaver]

Would people be interested in me doing a reread of arch/pps, or would people just shrug it off as "lol he's biased!". I'd just post the stuff they say about each other, without an agenda.

Oh, and whatever happened with the love doctor? Nobody has it? I guess it could be bad for town to claim it if they got hated...

So the thing is, you kind of should have already wanted to do that.  If you were seriously considering the BA/me possibility (which, by your own admission, you were), then you would have wanted to reread to see if PPS/Arch makes sense so that you could figure out the correct lynch, not so that you could prevent yourself from being lynched.

Anyway, you're welcome do make the posts, of course, and whatever arguments.  I'm already compiling such a post.. I've mainly just quoted everything PPS/Mail-Mi said about each other in days 1-2, before Archetype came.  I haven't gone through Day 4 yet.  I'll try to finish that post today.

[liopoil]

Would people be interested in me doing a reread of arch/pps, or would people just shrug it off as "lol he's biased!". I'd just post the stuff they say about each other, without an agenda.

Oh, and whatever happened with the love doctor? Nobody has it? I guess it could be bad for town to claim it if they got hated...

So the thing is, you kind of should have already wanted to do that.  If you were seriously considering the BA/me possibility (which, by your own admission, you were), then you would have wanted to reread to see if PPS/Arch makes sense so that you could figure out the correct lynch, not so that you could prevent yourself from being lynched.

Anyway, you're welcome do make the posts, of course, and whatever arguments.  I'm already compiling such a post.. I've mainly just quoted everything PPS/Mail-Mi said about each other in days 1-2, before Archetype came.  I haven't gone through Day 4 yet.  I'll try to finish that post today.

I have read their stuff, just haven't made a big post.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, first part of reading.. this is PPS on Mail-Mi from days 1-3.  I quoted almost all the posts where PPS mentions Mail-Mi, so for the tl;dr part scroll down to the end.

So early PPS on Mail-Mi:

Day 1:

The way I see it, mail-mi better prove to us that he has a role that benefits from not rolling in the next couple days. if he doesn't, we lynch him. Until then, I don't like the idea of weakening a likely town PR.

Right, but the problem is, he basically came out and said that the longer he goes without rolling, the more powerful he'll be.  So why wouldn't scum just kill him tonight?  Especially if he doesn't roll, because then they get rid of even more dice.

(Basically what Faust said.)

I trust that a town!mail-mi knows best and is playing optimally for his supposed role. Judging by the previous Dice game it is entirely possible for scum to be deprived of their N1 kill so there's at least one way around this conundrum. As it is, I am giving mail-mi a D1 pass but I want to see what I bought D2. Also, if we need his roll to kill the troll then I think he should do so regardless of his role.

What if scum!mail-mi's role gets more powerful if he manages to not roll today?

This actually seems very plausible because effectively not rolling as scum would take big balls.

What if scum!mail-mi's role gets more powerful if he manages to not roll today?

This actually seems very plausible because effectively not rolling as scum would take big balls.

Is there a precedent from the last game of such a role?

Not that I am aware of. I am thinking of it more from a design standpoint. It makes more sense to make a scum role that gets more powerful if they succeed in doing something public that would certainly be in scum's interest to be doing. The obvious angle is to claim you are going to be a more powerful Town role. Also, I was imagining how the role might get more powerful and I imagined one in which I steal dice (because I know dice were stolen) and if I can maintain a certain number of dice into the night I have access to a better power. Nothing about that sounds towny though I am Town with a directly anti-town role power.

Anyway, all that is to say that I think we should weigh the risk vs. reward in case mail-mi is scum. while a super powered Townie is always nice (maybe he loses all dice but becomes IC?) is is worth the risk of a super power scum? I, personally, think I'd rather mitigate the risk of a super powered scum being created at the loss of a potential super powered Townie.

Initially I was going along with mail-mi because I considered his forward and blatant claim to be ardent for scum to be making but now that I deliberate on it I am not so certain it wasn't the only real move he had to make as scum. It has to at least be considered.

I should note that all I am really considering is not a lynch but whether he should be made to roll, so I think the stakes are rather low, actually.

Mail-mi, would you care to respond to my analysis on the implications if you are scum? By that, I do not mean defend yourself but state if and why you think letting us make you super power is a fair risk to take should you prove to be scum. In other words, in terms of risk assessment how is not more prudent to force you to roll regardless of your alignment?

I'd love to hear others respond as well. I think it is an important point but no one seems to care.

Removing the personality of mail-mi from the situation the question boils down to "is the gamble of a potential town super power worth the risk of a scum super power when the mechanism to defusing the situation is not a lynch but a dice roll".

I think that if we obviate mail-mi from doing it as scum we have to obviate him doing it as town. Thus, the fact that he is in fact doing it is a null on his alignment. What I perceive him to be doing is following the path his role dictates and the path has the same resistance regardless of alignment. If my role says "avoid rolling dice on day x become more powerful on day y" then it is not a cunning plan to do just that. Mail-mi is no way indicted with his behavior; it is null all the way around. It does however put the onus on town to reach consensus on allowing. I, for one, am thinking I would rather forgo an inflated town PR to mitigate a possible inflated scum PR.

   

But wouldn't town do the same thing?

Yes. We aren't talking about lynch here, though. We're talking about losing a town PR to defuse the threat of what could actually be a scum PR. Mail-mi thinks it exonerates him if he rolls when needed when I would contend he is only exonerated if he rolls at all. If box or his replacement succeeds in killing the troll the question still remains whether we just allowed a scum PR to strengthen or not. My question has been avoided all along, completely derailed by a false premise. It is a yes or no question for each person to decide; is the threat of mail-mi's power to potentially be scum sufficient deterrent to gaining a potential town PR? This has no implication of being 50/50 and nothing to with lynching mail-mi. In fact, that the question I have repeatedly ask remains unanswered while being twisted into other forms makes me think mail-mi is likely town for certainty.

Vote: ashersky

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

mail-mi, don't answer that, we clearly have a thief amongst us.

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

mail-mi, don't answer that, we clearly have a thief amongst us.

what do you think of the first two sentences of the quote? I am saying that it seems highly unlikely that he is scum who has a pro-scum power which will be helped by this, because if he isn't pro-town with his power we will lynch him.

Unless the scum super power is lynch proof...

<Some more posts on whether or not Mail-Mi should roll>

Day 2:

FOS: early rollers. Some people have fewer dice and so would prefer to roll early. Scum OTOH, would love nothing more than to roll early.

Maybe, if I were scum I would like to see what got played and then maybe had an unfortunate roll wherein I was forced to play an already played value. However, since we continue to see applicable rolls coming in there is some credence to this FOS. Also, after thinking on mail-mi's rolls I do have to say it could be a scum action; I would feel more strongly if both rolls were high numbers. Making sure 2 decent weights are out of the pool would be an excellent scum maneuver.

All that said, I am strongly of the opinion that dice rolls are largely WIFOM. Strong/weak rolls can affirm town/scum reads but I think it can be dangerous to let them form the read. There is far more to be garnered from player interactions and night actions.  As such, I am still opposed to mass claiming.

I guess what we have to think about is if the Orc's attack on Mail-Mi was random or targeted by scum.  It does say scum have the ability to control the monsters.

I believe that scum will understand the effect the attack will have on the target. mail-mi was a good target regardless of his alignment. I view mail-mi very null as a result. If he is town then scum know his power now. Surely he was doctored last night (were he town) and thus was a terrible Mafia target by any stretch.

How many votes is that on me? Also, can you guys please give reasons for voting for me? Thanks.

You're scummy. Scumhunting based solely on rolls is scummy. You opening D2 with a roll is scummy. You claiming to have been targeted by the Thief is scummy.

Oh, I forgot: You knowing that mail-mi was attacked is scummy.

That was in the thread for opening D2. I am sure I was not the only town person to have read that.

Okay then, who is the other town player who knew it?

Me! Knowing that mail-mi got attacked was a function of reading the 1st post of the day by Jimmmmm and is almost ridiculous to base a scum read on the fact that anyone bothered to read that. when mail-mi's rolls didn't count I immediately understood that it was a result of his being attacked.

Reread D1. Wow, so I totally get what is going on with XP and faust and now feel very good that they are both Town. Extremely unlikely either are scum.


So I have a 5-tiered scumometer:


Might as well lynch now - - ashersky

Sure does look like scum - - Beyond Awesome, Ichimaru

Nullolicious - - Withers, Hydrad

Not so null but no Townie of the year either - - liopoil, chairs

Club Town - - faust, XP, pps

(No Mail-Mi in this read?.. because he /outed by then?  Still..)

Day 3: (Mail-Mi is gone, Arch is in)

No mention or Arch joining.. first post that mentions Mail-Mi:

ashersky - 10 became 3
liopoil - 7 became 6 (no idea what is happening here)
chairs - 12
mail-mi
faust
Witherweaver
Beyond Awesome
Ichimaru Gin
Hydrad
pingpongsam


this list is nothing more than the list of players as provided by Jimmmmm when he opened the day, there is no other method to the ordering.
I propose that before anyone else rolls we see if there is an effect to chairs' roll. Following that I would to have a predetermined rolling order. I'm fine with the above but of course, since I have posted it and I am last on the list I can only imagine there are those who oppose it if not for other reasons. I'm not entirely sure the actual order matters so much as the fact that we go in an order.

One idea might be to assign ourselves numbers like so:

1 - mail-mi
2 - faust
3 - Witherweaver
4 - Beyond Awesome
5 - Ichimaru Gin
6 - Hydrad
7 - pingpongsam

then let the randomizer order us like so...

This dice roll may have been tampered with!
Rolled 1d7 : 6, total 6

...so that whoever just got picked rolls and in their play post they randomize the next person.

Does not even mention Archetype all day.

----------------------------------------------

Three things of interest:

1) His first inclination is that if Mail-Mi is town, then he knows what best to do with his role so it's okay. Obviously if we need him to roll we'll require it.  Then he seems to reconsider and think about the case where Mail-Mi is scum and has a scum power that gets better if he doesn't roll.  He argues that Mail-Mi should be required to roll to prevent this scenario, not to prove his claim.

2) Mail-Mi was more or less dropped on Day 2.  He opened up with the double roll, which kind of confirmed Mail-Mi's role as being something like "don't roll one day, play extra the next day".  Mail-Mi is strangely absent from the list of reads.  Yuma/e is gone as well.

3) Mail-Mi is no longer playing on Day 3, but PPS refers to him instead of Archetype.

There is still more to go.  Need to see what Mail-Mi said about PPS on Days 1,2, and also everything with Archetype, including what Archetype himself said on Day 3 and what their interactions were on Day 4.

However, from just this.. the scumteam narrative would be that other than a lot of talk about his role and the implications if he's scum on Day 1, PPS largely stays away from Mail-Mi.  This could be scum thinking they have to cast some doubt on their partner and then kind of forgetting they need to keep doing it. 

I don't find the scumteam narrative that compelling so far.  The mixed faction narrative is a little stronger... PPS first accepts Mail-Mi's role and then later reconsiders.  This isn't definitive, but if they were partners then PPS would know Mail-Mi's role, and have an idea of how he plans to react to Mail-Mi's claim.. this interaction reads more like PPS not really knowing what Mail-Mi's role is, and either trying to paint him scummy as scum or trying to scumhunt as town.  So call this part null to slightly for mixed-alignment.

When I list my reads as scum and I'm doing all the players, I don't think I ever forget to say something about my partner.    This could be intentional cleverness, leaving both town!e and partner!Arch off, but I'm not so sure about that.

Thirdly, when your scum partner drops out of the game and gets replaced, do you forget that and still talk about the original player?

So right now I'm finding it a little unlikely.  But, there is still more to go.  Let me know if I've missed something so far, or if anyone has other (maybe better) interpretations.

[Witherweaver]

Okay, Mail-Mi on PPS is much shorter:

Day 1:

I just discovered that someone swiped half my supply of dice last night.

Points to you being town, with scum stealing your dice.

Or you (or your partner) has the dice-stealing scum power and you are preemptively claiming to have been robbed when you actually didn't use the power for yet even more cred.

Well, if anyone had investigative power last night and witnessed me getting targeted then I would be willing to lynch that person.

Nope, no trackers or watchers. Or at least, town-aligned ones.

Okay, I am going to give a quick read. Right now, I think the most important thing is wait and see what the other players end up rolling, but we do have some information right now to work from. I am suspicious of any player that gets a low roll, so that means Volt and Ichi are the two most suspicious in my eyes. Although, it could very well be they just got bad rolls.

As far as PPS, I have reread his posts, and I am not sure what to think. First, he says, something prevents him from rolling. Then, he mentions that he had his dice swiped. Then, he rolls and then he states that he rolled his dice without knowing he had his dice stolen. However, I don't see how this is possible if he admits at first something was preventing him from rolling. Also, he has to roll from his QT, and he should have seen that his supply of dice was lower. This sounds very suspicious of me. I recommend that everyone goes back and rereads PPS earlier posts and tell me what you guys think.

I feel mail-mi is town, although I don't like him semi-claiming. But, I can see why he is doing it and telling us now, so that we know why he is withholding from rolling. So, for now, I think mail-mi is more Townie.

I also get a real town vibe from Faust, especially for putting the stats and rolls needed to defeat the monsters.

I also feel XP is town, but I don't like him also sort of semi-claiming early on. His interactions seem townie to me.

And, I am getting a town vibe on WW for having the Legacy Stone and also for being pretty engaged in this game.

I get null reads on liopoli, chairs, and ashersky.

As far as Yuma, BoxofDog, and Hydrad, we need more interactions from them and rolls.

I don't recall ever staing or having reason to state I was being prevented from rolling. In fact, I rolled as soon as I possibly could. I think you may be referring to the bit about "evenings" which I thought were real time evenings that we could not roll. I went ahead and submitted my roll ASAP but had no expectation of results until the next day. Jimmmmm clarified that evenings were "twilight"... or something, I guess, whatever, he gave me my results and I posted them right thereafter.

You tell me what Jimmmmm meant when he said we can't roll in the "evenings". In my time zone, when I was able to post and thus play it was definitely evening.

Evening
48 hours prior to deadline, the game enters the Evening phase. Unless specifically stated otherwise, no Day actions can be submitted during the Evening. Rolling dice cannot be done during the Evening, however playing and storing dice can.

What if scum!mail-mi's role gets more powerful if he manages to not roll today?

This actually seems very plausible because effectively not rolling as scum would take big balls.

Is there a precedent from the last game of such a role?

Not that I am aware of. I am thinking of it more from a design standpoint. It makes more sense to make a scum role that gets more powerful if they succeed in doing something public that would certainly be in scum's interest to be doing. The obvious angle is to claim you are going to be a more powerful Town role. Also, I was imagining how the role might get more powerful and I imagined one in which I steal dice (because I know dice were stolen) and if I can maintain a certain number of dice into the night I have access to a better power. Nothing about that sounds towny though I am Town with a directly anti-town role power.

Anyway, all that is to say that I think we should weigh the risk vs. reward in case mail-mi is scum. while a super powered Townie is always nice (maybe he loses all dice but becomes IC?) is is worth the risk of a super power scum? I, personally, think I'd rather mitigate the risk of a super powered scum being created at the loss of a potential super powered Townie.

Initially I was going along with mail-mi because I considered his forward and blatant claim to be ardent for scum to be making but now that I deliberate on it I am not so certain it wasn't the only real move he had to make as scum. It has to at least be considered.

is this the one you're talking about?

mail-mi even tells us that his power is anti-town.

Never said that. You're probably thinking of PPS, who did say that.

Day 2:

Vote Count 1.7 - Final

Ichimaru Gin (1): Voltaire
Beyond Awesome (1): Witherweaver
Voltaire (eight): mail-mi, Hydrad, Ichimaru Gin, XerxesPraelor, Beyond Awesome, faust, pingpongsam, ashersky
Witherweaver (1): chairs
pingpongsam (1): yuma
mail-mi (1): liopoil

not voting (1): BoxOfDog

With 14 alive, it took 8 to lynch.

Voltaire has been lynched. He was a Mafia Roleblocker.

Okay so just by nature of wagon analysis: lio, yuma, chairs, and Witherweaver look bad for being off wagon. I'd also expect scum to be around the middle of voltaire's wagon if they were on it, so like Ichi, XP, and BA.

And just from wagon, I think I'm gonna vote: chairs and also because of this post:

I'm not sure I follow why there's a big Voltaire wagon.  What am I missing?

which he posted, then never posted until the lynch again.

So Mail-Mi never really brings up PPS in terms of reads.  The interactions on his end are mostly answering questions.  The thing of interest is, PPS talks about Mail-Mi being scum, Mail-Mi doesn't really react.. PPS asks Mail-Mi what he thinks about it.. Mail-Mi asks which post he's talking about ("this one?"), and that question is never answered and Mail-Mi doesn't say any more about it.  (Unless I missed it.)

This part might point more to them being partners than not. 

I mention the Volt wagon analysis because PPS isn't mentioned in it.  PPS was at the end of the wagon, so that could be coincidental or it could not.

Well, Mail-Mi reads a little more like he could be PPS's partner than PPS reads like he could be Mail-Mi's.  Minimal interactions from the Mail-Mi -> PPS direction.. he barely talks about PS.  Of course Mail-Mi barely talks about anyone, so hard to judge.

On to Day 3-4 with Archetype.

[Hydrad]

ok well just letting everyone know I think we have like 12 hours till deadline?

[Hydrad]

I'll say this now. I think PPS is the towniest and would rather not lynch him tonight. lio/arch is who I want to vote for. I will be on within 4 hours of deadline and pretty much until deadline.

[Witherweaver]

I can't see myself voting Arch above Lio.

[Hydrad]

Well I'm totally fine with lynching lio right now as we are starting to run out of time. What happens if PPS and BA arn't on before the deadline?

[Witherweaver]

Well I'm totally fine with lynching lio right now as we are starting to run out of time. What happens if PPS and BA arn't on before the deadline?

Then it would be no lynch, and that would be quite bad.

[pingpongsam]

I'm here and a lio lynch works for me.

[pingpongsam]

The day ends on 8/9. Evening is sometime today. The two are not the same.
Even so, I don't see that there is much left to contribute at this point. I mean we can discuss night actions but the game is decided by today's lynch flip, right?

[Witherweaver]

The day ends on 8/9. Evening is sometime today. The two are not the same.
Even so, I don't see that there is much left to contribute at this point. I mean we can discuss night actions but the game is decided by today's lynch flip, right?

Decided?

[Hydrad]

Wait I'm confused. evenng doesn't mean the days done? What does evening mean then

[Witherweaver]

Early Day 4 from Arch for reference:

Alright, caught up.

First thing's first: WW and BA are very likely Town. The only scenario that sounds remotely possible is that the Town reward for "Council" is that two scum are placed in a QT with two town, but the two scum are kept hidden. Then the following day, instead of keeping quiet about being in the group, they could have thought they were caught as the two secret players and claimed Masons instead. Sort of as a "all-in" strategy. Witherweaver could have thought of this mid-day, as illustrated with his denial here:

BA WW and arche. were any of you in a council room not with me? If a few more people confirm they were not in a council room we will know that there was only one council room created.

Not I.

and his acceptance here:

I am Alice.  I know who Bob is, but I'll let him claim.

We were made Masons.  We were confirmed town to each other in our private QTs.  We were also informed that Ichimaru and Hydrad would join the neighborhood, but they did not have their alignment confirmed.

His followup...

Actually I'm just going to out it to save time.

BeyondAwesome is Bob.  He's town.  I choose to Sabotage him because he was confirmed town to me.  I didn't have any idea he'd have a low die stored.

...makes sense. Since BA had no idea what Masons were until BA claimed it, WW went ahead and did it for him instead of waiting for him to do it. And then BA played a stored die, WW claimed to have targeted him, when actually the "Saboteur" power is the dice destructor. Hm, well, but actually Hydrad claimed that in the QT that Bob and Alice mentioned that they were Masons. Hm. Well, that puts a damper on that theory. But really, that's all it is - a theory. No way that we'll lynch one of BA/WW when I'm pretty sure that both scum are within {PPS, liopoil, ashersky}.

I think I'm going to throw faust into that group too. His tunnel vision on WW/BA being a scumteam comes off as scum seeing the Masons as big threats, and trying to get one lynched and then the other NK'd. Of course faust would likely be the lynch the following day, but him having been visited by the Grim Reaper, and having the potential of a 1-shot Lynchproof, would save him from the lynch. Also, my receiving of the Mentalist lessens my town read on faust for him receiving it.

For the 3 people who claim to have had dice stolen from them (ashersky, faust, and Hydrad), we have two scenarios:

1) The Ogre's power is to steal dice from someone. Only problem with this theory is that Jimmmmm never posted a "[Player Name] has been attacked by the Ogre!" which makes it unlikely that someone was targeted. So that leaves...

2) One of them is lying scum. (Maybe two?)  faust said that he tried to steal from PPS and he failed. That leaves only one dice destructor. Why would scum claim to be stolen from?

ashersky - He was in the lynch group of {PPS, liopoil, ashersky} and it could be a grab for Town cred to get himself out of the group.

faust - If I remember correctly, faust mentioned being stolen from last. I have no idea why he'd put the spotlight on himself like that, unless he already felt like it was on him and wanted to be in good light.

Hydrad - This guy is sitting pretty if he's scum. Why would he claim and draw unnecessary attention to himself? Doesn't make sense. His claim only strengthens my town read on him.

Alright. So, one of {faust, ashersky} is likely scum and Hydrad got his dice stolen/destroyed. Looking at claims, who's the most likely liar?

ashersky - Could be easily lying. VT claim is very safe and is actually what I was expecting ashersky to claim as scum. With one extra role and one empty "slot" within the VT, him having some sort of dice stealing/destructing role makes the most sense.

faust - He has the perfect cover up with his Universal Backup -> Town Thief inheritance thing, but the extra stealing has been confirmed from the previous night (IIRC). So, it's very unlikely that Faust is the dice destructor, but is almost certainly a dice stealer.

Hydrad - With BA's claim, it's unlikely that Hydrad is lying about his power unless both him and BA are scum. Which isn't possible.

BA - Could be a dice destructor, but isn't super likely. Hydrad's claim also helps confirm that his power is actually what it is.

liopoil - faust, Ichimaru, and I have all confirmed his power to be what it is. After faust, he's the least likely to be the dice destructor.

WW - Second most likely to be a dice destructor. Saboteur makes perfect sense as a Dice Destructor (and I think WW was the first to suggest the possibility of such a thing) and no one has confirmed WW's power yet, but I believe him not only because he's most likely Town. Mostly, his claim just seems too complicated to be fake.

pingpongsam - He refuses to use his power, which makes sense if it is what it is. It's almost impossible to confirm even if he did use it, and after Time War mafia it's defintally a power he would fake claim.

From a purely claim standpoint, most likely to the dice dude to least:

ashersky
Witherweaver (MASON)
pingpongsam
Beyond Awesome (MASON)
Hydrad
liopoil
faust


Now it's time for pairings. I'm only voting amongst {faust, liopoil, PPS, ashersky}, so I'll only be looking at them.

faust/liopoil: The N1 dice giving makes sense here. I'm fairly certain that at least one of ashersky/PPS are scum, so I don't think that this is a likely pairing.
faust/PPS: This pairing is possible with PPS fakeclaiming being stolen from. I like what someone (BA?) said about them likely being the same alignment.
faust/ashersky: Much more likely than PPS/faust IMO. Ashersky puts some pressure on faust with his 'faustes aurelias whatever' thing. The fact that faust didn't react too much to it makes it more likely that it was staged.
liopoil/PPS: This is very likely as well. liopoil says that he's had a scumread on PPS for awhile and sees this now as an opportunity to try and bus him for towncred. liopoil has never given dice to PPS yet. Though maybe he can only give it Town players?
liopoil/ashersky: This could be a thing. ashersky has pushed for liopoil relatively hard since the beginning and brings him up whenever he starts to slip out of focus. liopoil never giving dice to ashersky is weird here too.
PPS/ashersky: Most likely pairing as they are my two highest scumreads. But I don't think ash would be this...lax? If both him and his partner were both lynch candidates like this. Though maybe after the D1 Voltaire, he's just sort of given up. PPS's die rolling thing is super, super scummy though.


So, my lynch preference is...

PPS -> ashersky -> liopoil -> faust

[Witherweaver]

Wait I'm confused. evenng doesn't mean the days done? What does evening mean then

No more rolling.

[Witherweaver]

Should note that that post I quoted from Archetype was under the assumption that Ash was claiming to have had dice taken from him, which we later discovered he actually spent on the Love Doctor.  So some of the analysis is on faulty data.  But I still thought it might be relevant for possible pairing scenarios.

[Witherweaver]

This one is a bit later:

Alright. I'm 90% sure that the two scum are in {faust, PPS, liopoil, ashersky}. 5% chance that Hydrad is scum and 5% chance that BA/WW really are scum. Looking at that, we have 5 options today:

Lynch faust: With his association with ash, he's moved up in my scum rankings. However, he has enough dice to perform an investigation for us if he's Town, or lie about one if he's scum. There is some WIFOM whether or not scum will kill him if he's Town and whether or not I'll actually give it to him. Plus, he's very unlikely to be the dice destroyer. Not an option.

Lynch PPS: What I want to do tbh. Has the most likely pairings and has played a very scummy game while not coming under too much scrutiny.

Lynch liopoil: Leaving him alive will force him to pump more dice into circulation. He has laid very low... so low that he's flown relatively under the radar. However, the only paring that really makes sense starting with him is with ash because he's very unlikely to be the dice destroyer and ash is. Not an option.

Lynch ash: Hurst my ego a bit, but I'm less certain that he's scum. I still think that he could be the dice destroyer, but the whole ploy with the Love Doctor just seems so unlike ash and makes no sense if he's scum. Him possibly being the dice destroyer puts him as a good lynch option.

No Lynch: I smell something fishy with faust's no lynch plan. I agree with BA that there's no reason to no lynch if we have 2 perfect scum candidates and something could easily go wrong depending on who scum kill. Still, I'd rather do this than lynch liopoil or faust.


I'm going to vote PPS, but I want to check the vote count first. PPE: 7

This post makes a Arch/Lio pairing seem more likely than an Arch/PPS.  Says Lio is scummy but has reasons to not vote for him.

[Witherweaver]

Here's where Arch votes PPS (one of the times, at least, may have happened more):

Looks like liopoil, WW, and I are the only ones of PPS's wagon.

Vote: PPS

These posts don't really sound like partner-bussing to me:

Are you guys really going to no lynch? Its obviously faust/pingpongsam. If we no lynch today, I'm likely going to be NK'd and then faust and PPS will try to push WW or BAs lynch tommorow.

Are you guys really going to no lynch? Its obviously faust/pingpongsam. If we no lynch today, I'm likely going to be NK'd and then faust and PPS will try to push WW or BAs lynch tommorow.

Part of me wants to lose just to be able to tell you "told you so". Why is it "obviously" me/pps? I thought ash is caught scum?

My scumread on ash lessened after the Love Doctor thing. You defending PPS like you are points to you and him being scumpartners.

Finally faust's sentiments about wanting some schadenfreude mirror my own and I see that as towny as hell because I am towny as hell.

You speak with certainty you cannot have unless you are scum.

This was after going after Ash fairly heavily.  He had gone away from Ash and to PPS.  This follows a bit later:

Now I'm starting to come around to an ash lynch. It's just too big of a risk if he is indeed Loved and left alive tomorrow.

This would be a good way to get out of lynching his partner (PPS) in that scenario.  Would have also required some good foresight or just riding the tides well.

But he doesn't actually move off of PPS:

Now I'm starting to come around to an ash lynch. It's just too big of a risk if he is indeed Loved and left alive tomorrow.

who's his partner you think? If it's pps, then don't move your vote. If it's somebody else, you're probably wrong.

You or Faust. Or PPS. I'm not quite sure. ashersky could easily be busing you and faust and him could be scummates working together to lynch one of the Masons and kill the other that night. But both of those scenarios are big ifs. PPS doesn't make 100% sense as a partner, but he's just so scummy that he has to be scum.

But I guess if we do lynch his partner, he won't be invincible tomorrow if he is Loved.

Later:

But seriously let's lynch PPS. Or ash. I'm pretty sure they're both scum at this point and are pulling out all stops to get one of WW/BA lynched so they can have a good laugh when Town lynches a Mason.

Right now, though, we know scum are in WW/BA or the other group.  We can eliminate one group as possible by lynching within it, but can't for the other.

Except that one is selected by a reward and the other isn't. I'm not going to try to argue with you about how WW/BA being Masons is the most plausible reward because it's been many times before at many different angles.

Intent to hammer. I prefer PPS, but ash has a better chance at being the dice destroyer and it's not unlikely that they are both scum.

But he never actually switches.  Man this reads a lot more like an Arch/Ash partner than Arch/PPS.  He maintains it's Ash/PPS almost the entire time (but also keeps Liopoil in his list of suspects), but never takes his vote off of PPS to Ash once he puts it on PPS.  And PPS was a very likely candidate. 

The parenthetical there is of interest because it points to Lio/Arch, but the focus here is on the Arch/PPS possibility.

[Witherweaver]

Long story short, I'm not seeing the Arch/PPS scum team.. some rare bits of circumstantial evidence, but I really don't see the narrative.

I also happen to think that town!Lio would really be looking for this narrative.  I think he hasn't because he's scum and he knows that finding narratives that aren't there is a bit of a waste of effort.  Lio's actions here remind me of how I play when I'm caught (Village Mafia, Stack the Deck, and, uh.. the last game with Robz.. Homeland?)

I'm ready for the Lio lynch to happen. 

[Hydrad]

Ya I'll lynch whenever people decide its time. Should we start now or wait a bit longer? I don't really see the point in waiting for the day to end.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: liopoil

[Witherweaver]

PPS, where did you go?

The day ends on 8/9. Evening is sometime today. The two are not the same.
Even so, I don't see that there is much left to contribute at this point. I mean we can discuss night actions but the game is decided by today's lynch flip, right?

Why is the game decided by the flip?

[Witherweaver]

Oh there you are

[Hydrad]

PPS, where did you go?

The day ends on 8/9. Evening is sometime today. The two are not the same.
Even so, I don't see that there is much left to contribute at this point. I mean we can discuss night actions but the game is decided by today's lynch flip, right?

Why is the game decided by the flip?

well i feel like if we mislynch its game over unless we get a lucky GR vig kill

[Witherweaver]

PPS, where did you go?

The day ends on 8/9. Evening is sometime today. The two are not the same.
Even so, I don't see that there is much left to contribute at this point. I mean we can discuss night actions but the game is decided by today's lynch flip, right?

Why is the game decided by the flip?

well i feel like if we mislynch its game over unless we get a lucky GR vig kill

But if we don't mislynch...

[liopoil]

Am I lynched? Just got internet...

[Hydrad]

Am I lynched? Just got internet...

I don't think so. I havn't counted but I think at most there is 2 votes on you? But I could be totally wrong.

[Witherweaver]

It should be two.. me and PPS.  BA was on PPS last I remember, Arch is on BA, and Hydrad's not voting.

[liopoil]

Witherweaver I don't understand you. What you post in your rereads is EXACTLY what I saw, and it is exactly why they are the scumteam. Scum don't give strong reads on each other or talk about each other that much, but when they do, it is bussing. Arch's posts suspecting pps are classic scum bussing - voting for someone, not pushing the lynch too hard, and the lynch never actually happens.

[liopoil]

Hydrad come on, think this through. I don't know what to tell you though, you have just been saying you think I am scum. I think that enough is out there for you to see that I am town, but it's especially hard for me to show you that when you don't tell me anything.

[Witherweaver]

Witherweaver I don't understand you. What you post in your rereads is EXACTLY what I saw, and it is exactly why they are the scumteam. Scum don't give strong reads on each other or talk about each other that much, but when they do, it is bussing. Arch's posts suspecting pps are classic scum bussing - voting for someone, not pushing the lynch too hard, and the lynch never actually happens.

But he pushed the PPS lynch fairly hard and it was in pretty big danger of happening.

[liopoil]

This one is a bit later:

Alright. I'm 90% sure that the two scum are in {faust, PPS, liopoil, ashersky}. 5% chance that Hydrad is scum and 5% chance that BA/WW really are scum. Looking at that, we have 5 options today:

Lynch faust: With his association with ash, he's moved up in my scum rankings. However, he has enough dice to perform an investigation for us if he's Town, or lie about one if he's scum. There is some WIFOM whether or not scum will kill him if he's Town and whether or not I'll actually give it to him. Plus, he's very unlikely to be the dice destroyer. Not an option.

Lynch PPS: What I want to do tbh. Has the most likely pairings and has played a very scummy game while not coming under too much scrutiny.

Lynch liopoil: Leaving him alive will force him to pump more dice into circulation. He has laid very low... so low that he's flown relatively under the radar. However, the only paring that really makes sense starting with him is with ash because he's very unlikely to be the dice destroyer and ash is. Not an option.

Lynch ash: Hurst my ego a bit, but I'm less certain that he's scum. I still think that he could be the dice destroyer, but the whole ploy with the Love Doctor just seems so unlike ash and makes no sense if he's scum. Him possibly being the dice destroyer puts him as a good lynch option.

No Lynch: I smell something fishy with faust's no lynch plan. I agree with BA that there's no reason to no lynch if we have 2 perfect scum candidates and something could easily go wrong depending on who scum kill. Still, I'd rather do this than lynch liopoil or faust.


I'm going to vote PPS, but I want to check the vote count first. PPE: 7

This post makes a Arch/Lio pairing seem more likely than an Arch/PPS.  Says Lio is scummy but has reasons to not vote for him.

Nope. He doesn't explain the pps suspicion at all, which is what scum does. Scum don't actually give reasons for their bussing.

[liopoil]

Witherweaver I don't understand you. What you post in your rereads is EXACTLY what I saw, and it is exactly why they are the scumteam. Scum don't give strong reads on each other or talk about each other that much, but when they do, it is bussing. Arch's posts suspecting pps are classic scum bussing - voting for someone, not pushing the lynch too hard, and the lynch never actually happens.

But he pushed the PPS lynch fairly hard and it was in pretty big danger of happening.

No he didn't, and the whole time there was just always just barely not enough votes to get pps to happen. In any case, that is a risk you have to take for the bussing to be worthwhile. And given the towncred you are giving it, it was indeed very worthwhile.

[pingpongsam]

Why is the game decided by the flip?

Oh, yeah, I suppose if liopoil flips scum then I have to argue my case yet again tomorrow. For me, the game is decided with today's flip. If we mislynch it is game over. If we hit scum then I know exactly who is scum tomorrow.

[Witherweaver]

Why is the game decided by the flip?

Oh, yeah, I suppose if liopoil flips scum then I have to argue my case yet again tomorrow. For me, the game is decided with today's flip. If we mislynch it is game over. If we hit scum then I know exactly who is scum tomorrow.

Ash would have called that a scumslip   But I guess this actually makes sense, since if Lio is scum, it has to be Arch from your perspective.  For the rest of us, we have to figure out between you and Arch.

[Hydrad]

Honestly I think arch is 100% scum if ww/BA is town. I really can't see pps and lio being a team.

[liopoil]

Okay, first part of reading.. this is PPS on Mail-Mi from days 1-3.  I quoted almost all the posts where PPS mentions Mail-Mi, so for the tl;dr part scroll down to the end.

So early PPS on Mail-Mi:

Day 1:

The way I see it, mail-mi better prove to us that he has a role that benefits from not rolling in the next couple days. if he doesn't, we lynch him. Until then, I don't like the idea of weakening a likely town PR.

Right, but the problem is, he basically came out and said that the longer he goes without rolling, the more powerful he'll be.  So why wouldn't scum just kill him tonight?  Especially if he doesn't roll, because then they get rid of even more dice.

(Basically what Faust said.)

I trust that a town!mail-mi knows best and is playing optimally for his supposed role. Judging by the previous Dice game it is entirely possible for scum to be deprived of their N1 kill so there's at least one way around this conundrum. As it is, I am giving mail-mi a D1 pass but I want to see what I bought D2. Also, if we need his roll to kill the troll then I think he should do so regardless of his role.

What if scum!mail-mi's role gets more powerful if he manages to not roll today?

This actually seems very plausible because effectively not rolling as scum would take big balls.

What if scum!mail-mi's role gets more powerful if he manages to not roll today?

This actually seems very plausible because effectively not rolling as scum would take big balls.

Is there a precedent from the last game of such a role?

Not that I am aware of. I am thinking of it more from a design standpoint. It makes more sense to make a scum role that gets more powerful if they succeed in doing something public that would certainly be in scum's interest to be doing. The obvious angle is to claim you are going to be a more powerful Town role. Also, I was imagining how the role might get more powerful and I imagined one in which I steal dice (because I know dice were stolen) and if I can maintain a certain number of dice into the night I have access to a better power. Nothing about that sounds towny though I am Town with a directly anti-town role power.

Anyway, all that is to say that I think we should weigh the risk vs. reward in case mail-mi is scum. while a super powered Townie is always nice (maybe he loses all dice but becomes IC?) is is worth the risk of a super power scum? I, personally, think I'd rather mitigate the risk of a super powered scum being created at the loss of a potential super powered Townie.

Initially I was going along with mail-mi because I considered his forward and blatant claim to be ardent for scum to be making but now that I deliberate on it I am not so certain it wasn't the only real move he had to make as scum. It has to at least be considered.

I should note that all I am really considering is not a lynch but whether he should be made to roll, so I think the stakes are rather low, actually.

Mail-mi, would you care to respond to my analysis on the implications if you are scum? By that, I do not mean defend yourself but state if and why you think letting us make you super power is a fair risk to take should you prove to be scum. In other words, in terms of risk assessment how is not more prudent to force you to roll regardless of your alignment?

I'd love to hear others respond as well. I think it is an important point but no one seems to care.

Removing the personality of mail-mi from the situation the question boils down to "is the gamble of a potential town super power worth the risk of a scum super power when the mechanism to defusing the situation is not a lynch but a dice roll".

I think that if we obviate mail-mi from doing it as scum we have to obviate him doing it as town. Thus, the fact that he is in fact doing it is a null on his alignment. What I perceive him to be doing is following the path his role dictates and the path has the same resistance regardless of alignment. If my role says "avoid rolling dice on day x become more powerful on day y" then it is not a cunning plan to do just that. Mail-mi is no way indicted with his behavior; it is null all the way around. It does however put the onus on town to reach consensus on allowing. I, for one, am thinking I would rather forgo an inflated town PR to mitigate a possible inflated scum PR.

   

But wouldn't town do the same thing?

Yes. We aren't talking about lynch here, though. We're talking about losing a town PR to defuse the threat of what could actually be a scum PR. Mail-mi thinks it exonerates him if he rolls when needed when I would contend he is only exonerated if he rolls at all. If box or his replacement succeeds in killing the troll the question still remains whether we just allowed a scum PR to strengthen or not. My question has been avoided all along, completely derailed by a false premise. It is a yes or no question for each person to decide; is the threat of mail-mi's power to potentially be scum sufficient deterrent to gaining a potential town PR? This has no implication of being 50/50 and nothing to with lynching mail-mi. In fact, that the question I have repeatedly ask remains unanswered while being twisted into other forms makes me think mail-mi is likely town for certainty.

Vote: ashersky

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

mail-mi, don't answer that, we clearly have a thief amongst us.

We are counting on mail-mi on a later day showing us his power. Even if he is scum, he will be forced to use his power in a pro-town way. also, there is an important distinction to be made - does not rolling enable/boost your power, or do you just want to save dice to use your power?

mail-mi, don't answer that, we clearly have a thief amongst us.

what do you think of the first two sentences of the quote? I am saying that it seems highly unlikely that he is scum who has a pro-scum power which will be helped by this, because if he isn't pro-town with his power we will lynch him.

Unless the scum super power is lynch proof...

<Some more posts on whether or not Mail-Mi should roll>

Day 2:

FOS: early rollers. Some people have fewer dice and so would prefer to roll early. Scum OTOH, would love nothing more than to roll early.

Maybe, if I were scum I would like to see what got played and then maybe had an unfortunate roll wherein I was forced to play an already played value. However, since we continue to see applicable rolls coming in there is some credence to this FOS. Also, after thinking on mail-mi's rolls I do have to say it could be a scum action; I would feel more strongly if both rolls were high numbers. Making sure 2 decent weights are out of the pool would be an excellent scum maneuver.

All that said, I am strongly of the opinion that dice rolls are largely WIFOM. Strong/weak rolls can affirm town/scum reads but I think it can be dangerous to let them form the read. There is far more to be garnered from player interactions and night actions.  As such, I am still opposed to mass claiming.

I guess what we have to think about is if the Orc's attack on Mail-Mi was random or targeted by scum.  It does say scum have the ability to control the monsters.

I believe that scum will understand the effect the attack will have on the target. mail-mi was a good target regardless of his alignment. I view mail-mi very null as a result. If he is town then scum know his power now. Surely he was doctored last night (were he town) and thus was a terrible Mafia target by any stretch.

How many votes is that on me? Also, can you guys please give reasons for voting for me? Thanks.

You're scummy. Scumhunting based solely on rolls is scummy. You opening D2 with a roll is scummy. You claiming to have been targeted by the Thief is scummy.

Oh, I forgot: You knowing that mail-mi was attacked is scummy.

That was in the thread for opening D2. I am sure I was not the only town person to have read that.

Okay then, who is the other town player who knew it?

Me! Knowing that mail-mi got attacked was a function of reading the 1st post of the day by Jimmmmm and is almost ridiculous to base a scum read on the fact that anyone bothered to read that. when mail-mi's rolls didn't count I immediately understood that it was a result of his being attacked.

Reread D1. Wow, so I totally get what is going on with XP and faust and now feel very good that they are both Town. Extremely unlikely either are scum.


So I have a 5-tiered scumometer:


Might as well lynch now - - ashersky

Sure does look like scum - - Beyond Awesome, Ichimaru

Nullolicious - - Withers, Hydrad

Not so null but no Townie of the year either - - liopoil, chairs

Club Town - - faust, XP, pps

(No Mail-Mi in this read?.. because he /outed by then?  Still..)

Day 3: (Mail-Mi is gone, Arch is in)

No mention or Arch joining.. first post that mentions Mail-Mi:

ashersky - 10 became 3
liopoil - 7 became 6 (no idea what is happening here)
chairs - 12
mail-mi
faust
Witherweaver
Beyond Awesome
Ichimaru Gin
Hydrad
pingpongsam


this list is nothing more than the list of players as provided by Jimmmmm when he opened the day, there is no other method to the ordering.
I propose that before anyone else rolls we see if there is an effect to chairs' roll. Following that I would to have a predetermined rolling order. I'm fine with the above but of course, since I have posted it and I am last on the list I can only imagine there are those who oppose it if not for other reasons. I'm not entirely sure the actual order matters so much as the fact that we go in an order.

One idea might be to assign ourselves numbers like so:

1 - mail-mi
2 - faust
3 - Witherweaver
4 - Beyond Awesome
5 - Ichimaru Gin
6 - Hydrad
7 - pingpongsam

then let the randomizer order us like so...

This dice roll may have been tampered with!
Rolled 1d7 : 6, total 6

...so that whoever just got picked rolls and in their play post they randomize the next person.

Does not even mention Archetype all day.

----------------------------------------------

Three things of interest:

1) His first inclination is that if Mail-Mi is town, then he knows what best to do with his role so it's okay. Obviously if we need him to roll we'll require it.  Then he seems to reconsider and think about the case where Mail-Mi is scum and has a scum power that gets better if he doesn't roll.  He argues that Mail-Mi should be required to roll to prevent this scenario, not to prove his claim.

2) Mail-Mi was more or less dropped on Day 2.  He opened up with the double roll, which kind of confirmed Mail-Mi's role as being something like "don't roll one day, play extra the next day".  Mail-Mi is strangely absent from the list of reads.  Yuma/e is gone as well.

3) Mail-Mi is no longer playing on Day 3, but PPS refers to him instead of Archetype.

There is still more to go.  Need to see what Mail-Mi said about PPS on Days 1,2, and also everything with Archetype, including what Archetype himself said on Day 3 and what their interactions were on Day 4.

However, from just this.. the scumteam narrative would be that other than a lot of talk about his role and the implications if he's scum on Day 1, PPS largely stays away from Mail-Mi.  This could be scum thinking they have to cast some doubt on their partner and then kind of forgetting they need to keep doing it. 

I don't find the scumteam narrative that compelling so far.  The mixed faction narrative is a little stronger... PPS first accepts Mail-Mi's role and then later reconsiders.  This isn't definitive, but if they were partners then PPS would know Mail-Mi's role, and have an idea of how he plans to react to Mail-Mi's claim.. this interaction reads more like PPS not really knowing what Mail-Mi's role is, and either trying to paint him scummy as scum or trying to scumhunt as town.  So call this part null to slightly for mixed-alignment.

When I list my reads as scum and I'm doing all the players, I don't think I ever forget to say something about my partner.    This could be intentional cleverness, leaving both town!e and partner!Arch off, but I'm not so sure about that.

Thirdly, when your scum partner drops out of the game and gets replaced, do you forget that and still talk about the original player?

So right now I'm finding it a little unlikely.  But, there is still more to go.  Let me know if I've missed something so far, or if anyone has other (maybe better) interpretations.

This is just silly. Not mentioning his partner is exactly what scum does! So often! It's not "forgetting" it's intentionally not mentioning because interacting with his partner isn't exactly useful for him! I don't know how you think that this scum narrative doesn't make sense, and I think if you asked anyone else they would agree that it is scummy.

In regard to #1, as I said before, this is a giant hedge.

[liopoil]

Honestly I think arch is 100% scum if ww/BA is town. I really can't see pps and lio being a team.

So why are you just giving in and saying "yeah let's just lynch lio" then???!?!?!!?

[Hydrad]

Honestly I think arch is 100% scum if ww/BA is town. I really can't see pps and lio being a team.

So why are you just giving in and saying "yeah let's just lynch lio" then???!?!?!!?

I guess because if I lynched arch all it would do is delay the decision until tomorrow

[Hydrad]

Also because no one else feels as sure as I do about arch. So I don't see why I should fight them when I think your both scum.

Also sorry that I haven't posted much about why I think your scum. But I agree with ww points

[liopoil]

Honestly I think arch is 100% scum if ww/BA is town. I really can't see pps and lio being a team.

So why are you just giving in and saying "yeah let's just lynch lio" then???!?!?!!?

I guess because if I lynched arch all it would do is delay the decision until tomorrow

But BA and ww aren't 100% sure arch is scum, so even if I were scum then tomorrow arch might not be lynched. So you should want him lynched now. Plus delaying the decision is probably good, more time to mull it over, arch actually mod-confirmed scum, etc.

Also because no one else feels as sure as I do about arch. So I don't see why I should fight them when I think your both scum.

Also sorry that I haven't posted much about why I think your scum. But I agree with ww points

LAME! You should fight them because you are more sure about one, and are actually wrong about the other!

[Archetype]

I have like 5 minutes. Rereading.

[liopoil]

Also sorry that I haven't posted much about why I think your scum. But I agree with ww points

You have been on every single lynch wagon, right? You are just way too agreeable.

[Hydrad]

Also sorry that I haven't posted much about why I think your scum. But I agree with ww points

You have been on every single lynch wagon, right? You are just way too agreeable.

Ya that's a problem I'm trying to fix. There has yet to be a lynch in a game I've been on where I'm not on the wagon.

I will say I'm starting to get worried about pps and how he's just quietly going along with this.

[Witherweaver]

PPS on Mail-Mi doens't sound any more hedged than you do:

The way I see it, mail-mi better prove to us that he has a role that benefits from not rolling in the next couple days. if he doesn't, we lynch him. Until then, I don't like the idea of weakening a likely town PR.

Plus, his thought process seemed more organic, not constructed. 

Also noticed:

Good thing about this scenario is: We know two scum roles with relative certainty, Thief and Reroller. With only 3 mafia in total, that means there's only one more role we have to worry about.

How do you know there are exactly 3 mafia??

is a very classic thing for scum to bring up.

Some more day 1 from Lio:

Okay, reads time:

scumreads: mail-mi, pingpongsam, Voltaire, XerxesPraelor, Beyond Awesome
nullreads: yuma, BoxOfDog, Hydrad
Unsure-reads: ashersky, chairs, Witherweaver
townreads: Ichimaru Gin, faust, liopoil

Would vote for: mail-mi, pingpongsam, Voltaire, Beyond Awesome
Might vote for: ashersky, chairs, Witherweaver
Not planning on voting for: yuma, BoxOfDog, Hydrad, XerxesPraelor
Won't vote for: Ichimaru Gin, faust, liopoil

explanations:

- I'm town
- Hydrad is a new player, nothing he has said so far gives me much of a read on him, but it seems we have set up a standard of not lynching the newbie D1 so I won't be voting there today.
- Yuma has been V/LA and everything he has done is null, including his vote for me. When he comes back, I am unlikely vote for him because in my experience he is always always null.
- I have found most things that Xerxes has done scummy, but I have never played with him before so I could be wrong. His interaction with faust has convinced faust that xerxes is town, so unless something happens I'll let xerxes live for today.
- BoxOfDog has done very little today. His roll was pro-town but he would have to have played that 11 even if he were scum. I could very well vote for him if he does something scummy later, of course.
- WW, chairs, and ashersky I have conflicting ideas about and I need to reread. Is chairs lurking? I feel like chairs is lurking.
- Ichimaru Gin and Faust are townreads that IIRC I have discussed elsewhere.
- I posted my thoughts on Voltaire very recently:

there isn't really anything scummy about voltaire's play in general, however, I do have a scumread on him. Two reasons: 1) he rolled a 5, the lowest of everyone, and 2) The way he acted in regard to his vote on me was a bit strange.

I think he is more likely to be scum than other people but not strongly enough to vote for him over my other scumreads just yet.
- Beyond Awesome is another slight scumread, his actions do seem to be playing it safe sort of, as first time scum. I don't like the timing of his voltaire vote and it is weird that he hasn't been rerolled while others have.
- PPS's vote on me was scummy because it didn't make sense, and I felt like he was sort of grasping at straws in the subsequent discussion. I also do not like his early claim, it is bad play if he is town, but a reasonable move as scum, which I can very much see him doing.
- I have no problem with mail-mi's claim. However, he has been very absent for someone who has been a big topic of discussion. His lurking seems to almost be an attempt to get us to forget about him. I don't have any problem seeing him deciding to make his claim as scum, so the claim itself is null. His has 20 posts in this game with very very little content. If he is town, he needs to be defending his actions and actively trying to find the real scum. Should he fullclaim? I can't know because I don't know his role, but my guess is that if he is town he probably should. I don't totally like the idea of having him roll though.

Of my scumreads, I think mail-mi is the scummiest, Vote: Mail-mi

This is pretty largely hedged on Volt.  I may have brought that up before.  Would he do this to scumpartner!Mail-Mi?  I'm not sure, but according to Lio himself this is classic bussing.

PPE: some

[liopoil]

Vote count please

[liopoil]

Also sorry that I haven't posted much about why I think your scum. But I agree with ww points

You have been on every single lynch wagon, right? You are just way too agreeable.

Ya that's a problem I'm trying to fix. There has yet to be a lynch in a game I've been on where I'm not on the wagon.

I will say I'm starting to get worried about pps and how he's just quietly going along with this.

No time like the present to fix that...

[Hydrad]

I know he said he would follow my judgement but still

[Archetype]

Checking in quickly.

How does archetype call me and pps scummy, then vote for BA?

I'm looking at the facts. We have one unclaimed power that can remove dice, and one power that is unconfirmed and has a role name that matches the aforementioned power pretty well. I dont believe that the dice destroyer power is factional, so unless someone can give me a narrative where PPS or liopoil is the dice destroyer, I have to go with the most logical choice.

I did that.  A Swindler doesn't just give stuff out.  A Swindler that takes away higher-valued die (d12s) and gives out lower-valued dice (d8s), well, that's kind of like Swindling.

That...could work. But people have claimed to lose dice. A Swindler would just change some for the other.

PPE: 5

[liopoil]

What? I was very specific in my stances on both voltaire and mail-mi, no hedge at all.

[Witherweaver]

Checking in quickly.

How does archetype call me and pps scummy, then vote for BA?

I'm looking at the facts. We have one unclaimed power that can remove dice, and one power that is unconfirmed and has a role name that matches the aforementioned power pretty well. I dont believe that the dice destroyer power is factional, so unless someone can give me a narrative where PPS or liopoil is the dice destroyer, I have to go with the most logical choice.

I did that.  A Swindler doesn't just give stuff out.  A Swindler that takes away higher-valued die (d12s) and gives out lower-valued dice (d8s), well, that's kind of like Swindling.

That...could work. But people have claimed to lose dice. A Swindler would just change some for the other.

PPE: 5

No, two targets.  Take 1d6 from one, give out 1d12 to other, but the ones that are given out are d8s instead of d12s.  In some sense, net dice value is not really changed (like Swindler).

[Archetype]

Honestly I think arch is 100% scum if ww/BA is town. I really can't see pps and lio being a team.

Why couldnt you see them as a team?

[liopoil]

Good thing about this scenario is: We know two scum roles with relative certainty, Thief and Reroller. With only 3 mafia in total, that means there's only one more role we have to worry about.

How do you know there are exactly 3 mafia??

is a very classic thing for scum to bring up.

Dude, I swear that it wasn't in the OP when PMs were sent. This was discussed plenty on D1. Besides, how stupid do you think I am?

[Witherweaver]

What? I was very specific in my stances on both voltaire and mail-mi, no hedge at all.

Really?

there isn't really anything scummy about voltaire's play in general, however, I do have a scumread on him. Two reasons: 1) he rolled a 5, the lowest of everyone, and 2) The way he acted in regard to his vote on me was a bit strange.

I think he is more likely to be scum than other people but not strongly enough to vote for him over my other scumreads just yet.

How is that not a hedge?

[liopoil]

It's not a hedge. I was very specific in how much of a scumread he was. I had like 5 scumreads then, can't vote for all of them. A hedge is when you don't specify what you actually think about the player.

[Witherweaver]

Good thing about this scenario is: We know two scum roles with relative certainty, Thief and Reroller. With only 3 mafia in total, that means there's only one more role we have to worry about.

How do you know there are exactly 3 mafia??

is a very classic thing for scum to bring up.

Dude, I swear that it wasn't in the OP when PMs were sent. This was discussed plenty on D1. Besides, how stupid do you think I am?

That it was known wasn't my point.  My point is that scum are more likely to be concerned with that than not scum (Ash in WoT, Xerxes being extra careful about knowing number of scum in Innovation, etc.)

[Archetype]

WW putting in the effort to reread like this is making me less sure that he's scum. If he is scum, he'd just take the free liopoil mislynch.

Checking in quickly.

How does archetype call me and pps scummy, then vote for BA?

I'm looking at the facts. We have one unclaimed power that can remove dice, and one power that is unconfirmed and has a role name that matches the aforementioned power pretty well. I dont believe that the dice destroyer power is factional, so unless someone can give me a narrative where PPS or liopoil is the dice destroyer, I have to go with the most logical choice.

I did that.  A Swindler doesn't just give stuff out.  A Swindler that takes away higher-valued die (d12s) and gives out lower-valued dice (d8s), well, that's kind of like Swindling.

That...could work. But people have claimed to lose dice. A Swindler would just change some for the other.

PPE: 5

No, two targets.  Take 1d6 from one, give out 1d12 to other, but the ones that are given out are d8s instead of d12s.  In some sense, net dice value is not really changed (like Swindling).

Interesting. That does make more sense as a Swindling power than what PPS claimed.

[liopoil]

I also discussed #2, that the way Voltaire acted in regard to his vote on me was strange, moreso than the others voting for me, at quite a fair bit of depth.

[Witherweaver]

It's not a hedge. I was very specific in how much of a scumread he was. I had like 5 scumreads then, can't vote for all of them. A hedge is when you don't specify what you actually think about the player.

I don't think you're going to convince me that "not scummy but I have a scumread but not going to vote for yet may vote for later" is not a hedge. It gives you the chance to vote later if you deem it necessary or stay away.

I'm sorry if I'm wrong.

PPEs

[liopoil]

WW putting in the effort to reread like this is making me less sure that he's scum. If he is scum, he'd just take the free liopoil mislynch.

But gosh, he's got some serious confirmation bias, despite him claiming he'd keep an open mind.

[Witherweaver]

WW putting in the effort to reread like this is making me less sure that he's scum. If he is scum, he'd just take the free liopoil mislynch.

But gosh, he's got some serious confirmation bias, despite him claiming he'd keep an open mind.

I did keep an open mind, or at least I really tried to.  I just don't see it the same way you're saying it :/

[liopoil]

It's not a hedge. I was very specific in how much of a scumread he was. I had like 5 scumreads then, can't vote for all of them. A hedge is when you don't specify what you actually think about the player.

I don't think you're going to convince me that "not scummy but I have a scumread but not going to vote for yet may vote for later" is not a hedge. It gives you the chance to vote later if you deem it necessary or stay away.

I'm sorry if I'm wrong.

PPEs

I guess you're saying that I was giving myself room to go either way later on? Well, I didn't, and I think if I had that would have been scummy, so I didn't really have any room to go either way. I had committed to my read on Voltaire.

[Hydrad]

Honestly I think arch is 100% scum if ww/BA is town. I really can't see pps and lio being a team.

Why couldnt you see them as a team?

Just how they are acting towards each other. Honestly I don't have much concrete proof and most of this game i'm going off of instinct. This is hard for me as I have no idea how any of you normally play so I really hate how this decision is basically coming down to me.

I feel like they would of tried to push a mislynch onto you if they were both scum but you didn't really come up at all. Also their interactions don't sound like 2 scum trying to lynch each other to get cred onto one of them. I feel like they weren't in a bad enough spot to decide to try to lynch each other and think they would of decided to get a mislynch push.

[Witherweaver]

It's not a hedge. I was very specific in how much of a scumread he was. I had like 5 scumreads then, can't vote for all of them. A hedge is when you don't specify what you actually think about the player.

I don't think you're going to convince me that "not scummy but I have a scumread but not going to vote for yet may vote for later" is not a hedge. It gives you the chance to vote later if you deem it necessary or stay away.

I'm sorry if I'm wrong.

PPEs

I guess you're saying that I was giving myself room to go either way later on? Well, I didn't, and I think if I had that would have been scummy, so I didn't really have any room to go either way. I had committed to my read on Voltaire.

Right, but as long as you had other players to vote for, you wouldn't need to vote for him.  But you still could, and it wouldn't seem like a desperate grab for cred because "hey I had a scum read on him before".

[pingpongsam]

Hydrad, you're read is spot on. As this day has progressed it has become clear to me that WW/BA are what they claim to be. You are an IC. I am an IC to myself. Guess who is left. The clarity surrounding WW/BA has come about because of the lio/arch interaction.

[liopoil]

It's not a hedge. I was very specific in how much of a scumread he was. I had like 5 scumreads then, can't vote for all of them. A hedge is when you don't specify what you actually think about the player.

I don't think you're going to convince me that "not scummy but I have a scumread but not going to vote for yet may vote for later" is not a hedge. It gives you the chance to vote later if you deem it necessary or stay away.

I'm sorry if I'm wrong.

PPEs

I guess you're saying that I was giving myself room to go either way later on? Well, I didn't, and I think if I had that would have been scummy, so I didn't really have any room to go either way. I had committed to my read on Voltaire.

Right, but as long as you had other players to vote for, you wouldn't need to vote for him.  But you still could, and it wouldn't seem like a desperate grab for cred because "hey I had a scum read on him before".

Yes it would look like a desperate grab for cred, just like pps's did and was.

[Witherweaver]

Honestly I think arch is 100% scum if ww/BA is town. I really can't see pps and lio being a team.

Why couldnt you see them as a team?

Just how they are acting towards each other. Honestly I don't have much concrete proof and most of this game i'm going off of instinct. This is hard for me as I have no idea how any of you normally play so I really hate how this decision is basically coming down to me.

I feel like they would of tried to push a mislynch onto you if they were both scum but you didn't really come up at all. Also their interactions don't sound like 2 scum trying to lynch each other to get cred onto one of them. I feel like they weren't in a bad enough spot to decide to try to lynch each other and think they would of decided to get a mislynch push.

This is a good point.

However, not sure about "I feel like they weren't in a bad enough spot to decide to try to lynch each other".  If it was PPS/Volt/Lio they may have been pretty desperate after Volt's lynch.

[liopoil]

Hydrad, you're read is spot on. As this day has progressed it has become clear to me that WW/BA are what they claim to be. You are an IC. I am an IC to myself. Guess who is left. The clarity surrounding WW/BA has come about because of the lio/arch interaction.

Unfortunately, you aren't town... as I've been saying since D1.

[pingpongsam]

Hydrad, you're read is spot on. As this day has progressed it has become clear to me that WW/BA are what they claim to be. You are an IC. I am an IC to myself. Guess who is left. The clarity surrounding WW/BA has come about because of the lio/arch interaction.

Unfortunately, you aren't town... as I've been saying since D1.

Because you've been so certain since D1. Guess who has the luxury of certainty on D1?

[liopoil]

Hydrad, you're read is spot on. As this day has progressed it has become clear to me that WW/BA are what they claim to be. You are an IC. I am an IC to myself. Guess who is left. The clarity surrounding WW/BA has come about because of the lio/arch interaction.

Unfortunately, you aren't town... as I've been saying since D1.

Because you've been so certain since D1. Guess who has the luxury of certainty on D1?

Wasn't anywhere near certain on any of the days. Pretty confident starting D4 though. And I'm right too.

[liopoil]

Honestly I think arch is 100% scum if ww/BA is town. I really can't see pps and lio being a team.

Why couldnt you see them as a team?

Just how they are acting towards each other. Honestly I don't have much concrete proof and most of this game i'm going off of instinct. This is hard for me as I have no idea how any of you normally play so I really hate how this decision is basically coming down to me.

I feel like they would of tried to push a mislynch onto you if they were both scum but you didn't really come up at all. Also their interactions don't sound like 2 scum trying to lynch each other to get cred onto one of them. I feel like they weren't in a bad enough spot to decide to try to lynch each other and think they would of decided to get a mislynch push.

This is a good point.

However, not sure about "I feel like they weren't in a bad enough spot to decide to try to lynch each other".  If it was PPS/Volt/Lio they may have been pretty desperate after Volt's lynch.

pretty sure pps and I weren't getting that much suspicion... certainly less than our 3 mislynches (ash, chairs, e). But if you want to keep your "epic bus" theory alive, go ahead.

[Witherweaver]

I think it's more that you two never had a great reason (from what I saw) to start suspecting each other in the first place.  Just kind of locked on and stayed there, in a seemingly mutual manner.

[Archetype]

Vote:liopoil

[liopoil]

Vote:liopoil

gg?

[Hydrad]

Vote: Archetype

this is where my vote is going to sit for now.

[liopoil]

Vote:liopoil

gg?

I mean, my lynch seems pretty inevitable anyway. This is probably "just" L-1 though

[Witherweaver]

Vote:liopoil

gg?

That's only three votes, and from where you're sitting both scum (being Arch and PPS) are already on you.

[Hydrad]

this is making me worry even more about a arch/pps team. I think its too big a risk for arch to team kill this late into it but I guess hes running out of options.

[liopoil]

Vote:liopoil

gg?

I mean, my lynch seems pretty inevitable anyway. This is probably "just" L-1 though

Hopefully you thought it was hammer, but are wrong, and we can see your failed quickhammer attempt now.

witherweaver, can you unvote for a second to figure stuff out, and so that BA can't quickhammer just in case you guys are the scums?

[liopoil]

Vote:liopoil

gg?

That's only three votes, and from where you're sitting both scum (being Arch and PPS) are already on you.

Good, unless BA is scum with you. I thought BA was voting for me?

[Witherweaver]

this is making me worry even more about a arch/pps team. I think its too big a risk for arch to team kill this late into it but I guess hes running out of options.

Do you think Arch/Lio would vote for PPS here?  Wouldn't that look pretty bad for him if we do lynch Lio?

[Witherweaver]

BA is either on PPS or unvoted.

Unvote

[Witherweaver]

Jimmmmmmm can we get a vote count?

[Hydrad]

this is making me worry even more about a arch/pps team. I think its too big a risk for arch to team kill this late into it but I guess hes running out of options.

Do you think Arch/Lio would vote for PPS here?  Wouldn't that look pretty bad for him if we do lynch Lio?

I think he would vote for lio eventually but I think the timing looks like a really dangerous time to do this. The timing of his vote feels more like a scum lynching town then a scum lynching scum. The only thing is I know he said he was only here for a bit and if thats the case I sorta understand the vote.

[liopoil]

this is making me worry even more about a arch/pps team. I think its too big a risk for arch to team kill this late into it but I guess hes running out of options.

Do you think Arch/Lio would vote for PPS here?  Wouldn't that look pretty bad for him if we do lynch Lio?

Unvote, man

PPE: 1 - good.

I'm not sure what I would make of arch's vote from a neutral perspective, if I didn't know I was town. In theory it could make sense if he was my partner, but also makes sense for pps-arch. If it were a pps-lio team I'm not sure why he would do that with no explanation... I guess maybe if he had to leave and just decided he needed to move his vote?

PPE: two more - I already asked for a vote count

[Witherweaver]

Fun fact: Arch's vote is out of syntax and probably doesn't count.

[Witherweaver]

I found this out because I was searching for "vote: lio" (non case-sensitive) to try to find out if BA voted or not.

[Witherweaver]

Other fun fact, I have 904 posts in this thread.  I hope we correctly lynch today and I don't die tonight and I can break 1000.

Anyone know the record for a single Mafia game here?

[liopoil]

Fun fact: Arch's vote is out of syntax and probably doesn't count.

haha - I'm not sure...

I think that breaks the record by a couple hundred... IIRC, the record isn't any higher than 700 or so. Can't remember exactly when and who that was. There might be another player in this game with over 700 posts too, BA or faust maybe?

I'm gone for the rest of the day now - I will have access at some point tomorrow again. Hopefully we won't have already lost by then...

[Hydrad]

Other fun fact, I have 904 posts in this thread.  I hope we correctly lynch today and I don't die tonight and I can break 1000.

Anyone know the record for a single Mafia game here?

Man I felt like i have done a decent amount of posts and yet your getting close to tripling me. thats crazy.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, overall, I feel PPS is the most likely to be town out of the three players.

I am still fairly confident about Lio about being scum. I don't see how he is.

I honestly have no idea what to make of Arch though. I can sort of see an Arch/Lio team.

So, Hydrad what makes you so confident that Arch is scum?

[Hydrad]

So, Hydrad what makes you so confident that Arch is scum?

Just interactions and how things are playing out I guess. I would say I'm 90% sure arch is scum. Another thing that makes me believe its him is I think he has done the worst with roles out of all of us.

[pingpongsam]

Just got back from euthanizing my 19 year old cat.

I don't care if we lynch lio or arch. To honor my word.

Vote: archetype

[Witherweaver]

Just got back from euthanizing my 19 year old cat.

I don't care if we lynch lio or arch. To honor my word.

Vote: archetype

I'm sorry

[Jimmmmm]

Vote Count 5.2

liopoil (1): Witherweaver
Beyond Awesome (1): Archetype
Archetype (3): liopoil, Hydrad, pingpongsam (L-1)

not voting (1 2): Beyond Awesome, Witherweaver

amended to reflect Witherweaver's unvoting.

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on August 9 at 2pm forum time.

Target: 25
Score: 16

[Witherweaver]

Huh.  So uh.. I feel a lot better about Lio than Arch.  No more voting yet.  Also announcing L-1 is good.

[Hydrad]

Huh.  So uh.. I feel a lot better about Lio than Arch.  No more voting yet.  Also announcing L-1 is good.

Well you and BA hold the power in the if he dies or not so there really won't be a lynch unless BA does it.

[Beyond Awesome]

Just got back from euthanizing my 19 year old cat.

I don't care if we lynch lio or arch. To honor my word.

Vote: archetype

That's horrible.

[Witherweaver]

Well now that we're confirmed town, I hope Faust eats his hat or whatever he said he would do.  Unless he said he would quit Mafia; I don't want that.  I should have made him give his word for hat eating. I probably also shouldn't have fought with him so much   I also should have gone PPS instead of Ash yesterday.  Would that put us in the same situation here if PPS ended up town?

Well, maybe not.. if PPS is town we probably would have just lynched Ash for being dice destroyer because VT claim.

And now that its confirmed I'm NOT the die destroyer.  everyone still think it's factional?

[Beyond Awesome]

So, Hydrad what makes you so confident that Arch is scum?

Just interactions and how things are playing out I guess. I would say I'm 90% sure arch is scum. Another thing that makes me believe its him is I think he has done the worst with roles out of all of us.

Honestly, I also feel Lio's rolls have been pretty bad as well. He can roll higher than 8, but hasn't the entire game, so there's that. Arch's rolls aren't all that amazing either though.

[Hydrad]

So, Hydrad what makes you so confident that Arch is scum?

Just interactions and how things are playing out I guess. I would say I'm 90% sure arch is scum. Another thing that makes me believe its him is I think he has done the worst with roles out of all of us.

Honestly, I also feel Lio's rolls have been pretty bad as well. He can roll higher than 8, but hasn't the entire game, so there's that. Arch's rolls aren't all that amazing either though.

The thing with arch is on day 2 both his rolls ended up hurting us and then was it today? that he rolled a one? That ones understandable I guess.

And now that its confirmed I'm NOT the die destroyer.  everyone still think it's factional?

I think it might be factional now. Just incase scum got 2 town powers Jimmm might of given them that ability so that they can still hurt us.

And although I like the idea of your PPS theory I really don't think its right. If that theory was correct would PPS have made up that many changes in how his ability works? I feel like PPS would have had a certain lie for his power if he wanted to cover it up. Instead of doing the most awkward claim I've ever seen.

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, on the other hand, Ash did tell us that PPS like the boldest or something scum player.  It would be pretty diabolical to come up with a fake claim and pretend to not understand it just to seem townie.

Also, *everyone's * flavor name makes sense.  How does his power really Swindle?  Because he gives you something (for free) but it's less than you expected?  It's still something.. not like you paid for thoae d8s.  Unless someone did, in d12s.

Well I'm not totally sold in it, but I have no other explanation.

[Witherweaver]

I mean as an alternative to factional.

[Witherweaver]

Actually, Ichi was Priest.. priest rerolled someone.. not sure how that fits anything.  A non dominion reference?

[liopoil]

Yeah, on the other hand, Ash did tell us that PPS like the boldest or something scum player.  It would be pretty diabolical to come up with a fake claim and pretend to not understand it just to seem townie

It's certainly been done. Scum faking mistakes like that I mean.

[liopoil]

Well now that we're confirmed town, I hope Faust eats his hat or whatever he said he would do.  Unless he said he would quit Mafia; I don't want that.  I should have made him give his word for hat eating. I probably also shouldn't have fought with him so much   I also should have gone PPS instead of Ash yesterday.  Would that put us in the same situation here if PPS ended up town?

Well, maybe not.. if PPS is town we probably would have just lynched Ash for being dice destroyer because VT claim.

And now that its confirmed I'm NOT the die destroyer.  everyone still think it's factional?

Yes, I do think it's factional. Only other explanation would be that it's pps with weird fakeclaim? Well, pps is conf!scum now, so certainly possible, but it doesn't really matter and I still think that factional is just simpler.

Also, good to know that you guys aren't evil.

[liopoil]

So, Hydrad what makes you so confident that Arch is scum?

Just interactions and how things are playing out I guess. I would say I'm 90% sure arch is scum. Another thing that makes me believe its him is I think he has done the worst with roles out of all of us.

Honestly, I also feel Lio's rolls have been pretty bad as well. He can roll higher than 8, but hasn't the entire game, so there's that. Arch's rolls aren't all that amazing either though.

Dude, bad rolls happen. And I may or may not have rolled higher than 8 on D2. (I didn't though ). And Hydrad hasn't rolled above a 7, and he's town. And I mean, my dice have gone to a good purpose, so I probably have been rolling fewer dice than most people.

[liopoil]

Vote Count 5.2

liopoil (1): Witherweaver
Beyond Awesome (1): Archetype
Archetype (3): liopoil, Hydrad, pingpongsam (L-1)

not voting (1): Beyond Awesome

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on August 9 at 2pm forum time.

Target: 25
Score: 16

This vote count is wrong, IIRC arch is voting for me and ww is not voting.

[liopoil]

So, given that BA and ww are cleared now, it is confirmed that the scum are in {arch, pps, lio}. So I know the scumteam, and the other two will pretend that they know the scumteam. This means that any one of us three will gladly vote for either of the other two. So it is up to our 3 ICs to decide which of us to lynch, 2 of them need to agree. Or we can no lynch, and it gets different...

Also, the ICs all have a QT together tonight, so assuming we don't lynch me they can discuss who the last scum is at night and the last words of whoever dies will live on.

So what happens if we no lynch? An IC dies, but they still get to tell us who/what they think is scum. Some other stuff might happen with the NPCs. Then tomorrow, the 3 suspects are still alive, and two of the ICs. The suspects will still be willing to vote for either of the others... but interestingly enough, either IC can decide what happens. An IC votes for one of the suspects, the other two suspects will hammer. If one of the suspects doesn't, the scumteam is confirmed and the other IC can hammer. But this would be a weird scenario, with either IC being able to decide who gets lynched. I think it is better that we don't go there then - this council of 3 ICs is better for us. We have 30 hours to lynch.

So, that's that I guess. Not sure what else there is to say. Anything that the ICs want me to address?

[liopoil]

ww/BA: why would arch vote for me the way he just did if he is town?

I know you didn't say he was town, but here is a reason to suspect him more, I think.

[pingpongsam]

Lio did a decent job of bussing early so tomorrow he can argue that I had to bus to survive the day and that were I the town betwixt us I would have been earlier on the wagon.

Guys, it doesn't matter if we lynch arch or lio today so long as we lynch the other tomorrow. I expect hydrad to be the NK since he is already in this mindset.

[Witherweaver]

ww/BA: why would arch vote for me the way he just did if he is town?

I know you didn't say he was town, but here is a reason to suspect him more, I think.

I'll wait for Arch to come back.

[Witherweaver]

You guys both know that the night kill is going to be a bottomless pit of WIFOM and will provide no useful analysis.

[liopoil]

You guys both know that the night kill is going to be a bottomless pit of WIFOM and will provide no useful analysis.

Well, maybe.

[liopoil]

Lio did a decent job of bussing early so tomorrow he can argue that I had to bus to survive the day and that were I the town betwixt us I would have been earlier on the wagon.

Guys, it doesn't matter if we lynch arch or lio today so long as we lynch the other tomorrow. I expect hydrad to be the NK since he is already in this mindset.

pps did an awful job of bussing today so he's making this point today in an attempt to make up for it ahead of time.

Guys, it doesn't matter if we lynch arch or pps today so long as we lynch the other tomorrow. I expect... well, no, scum will do whatever they see fit and I have no idea what this will be. pps might though, because he's scum.

[liopoil]

ww/BA: why would arch vote for me the way he just did if he is town?

I know you didn't say he was town, but here is a reason to suspect him more, I think.

I'll wait for Arch to come back.

good call.

You guys both know that the night kill is going to be a bottomless pit of WIFOM and will provide no useful analysis.

Well, maybe.

What I mean by this:

Let's say ic1 thinks it's Suspect1, and ic2 thinks it's Suspect2, and these statements are very well known to everyone. If ic1 dies I would suspect Suspect1 more, and the same with ic2/Suspect2. This would just be a slight suspicion though, because of wifom of course. But it doesn't just go to nothing, it is just weakened.

[Witherweaver]

So, Hydrad what makes you so confident that Arch is scum?

Just interactions and how things are playing out I guess. I would say I'm 90% sure arch is scum. Another thing that makes me believe its him is I think he has done the worst with roles out of all of us.

Honestly, I also feel Lio's rolls have been pretty bad as well. He can roll higher than 8, but hasn't the entire game, so there's that. Arch's rolls aren't all that amazing either though.

The thing with arch is on day 2 both his rolls ended up hurting us and then was it today? that he rolled a one? That ones understandable I guess.

And now that its confirmed I'm NOT the die destroyer.  everyone still think it's factional?

I think it might be factional now. Just incase scum got 2 town powers Jimmm might of given them that ability so that they can still hurt us.

And although I like the idea of your PPS theory I really don't think its right. If that theory was correct would PPS have made up that many changes in how his ability works? I feel like PPS would have had a certain lie for his power if he wanted to cover it up. Instead of doing the most awkward claim I've ever seen.

Oh I should also point out, in my scenario PPS isn't really lying; he actually does give out dice, like he said.  There's just another part that he didn't say. 

[liopoil]

Not too active today. Deadline is under 24 hours... I probably won't be around at deadline, but probably will be a few hours before.

Can we lynch arch now, please?

[Witherweaver]

Not too active today. Deadline is under 24 hours... I probably won't be around at deadline, but probably will be a few hours before.

Can we lynch arch now, please?

Nope.

[liopoil]

Not too active today. Deadline is under 24 hours... I probably won't be around at deadline, but probably will be a few hours before.

Can we lynch arch now, please?

Nope.

You still think it could be pps-lio? really?

[Witherweaver]

Is it better to catch scum in the lie? Or is it better to Vote: Yuma right now for lying?

This really sounds like you're pretty certain he's lying, but you kind of evaded the question when you were asked how you knew.  Is there something you know that we don't?

How did you think he could be caught?

Scum gets caught when their fakeclaim is disproven through PoE. That sounds like a harrowing process as opposed to jumping right to the jugular. His claim absolutely smacks of getting in an early claim for cred and WIFOM in case of a counter claim. His claim appears to be assembled from the already available information. Real claims tend to not be so thoroughly supported by already available information.

I've learned the old method of playing town by being completely forthright about who I think is scum is how scum win games through manipulating the information about where I am truly headed. Right now, nobody knows who I really suspect. My methods are not linear. A vote for a person is not, by necessity a realistic attempt for their lynch. ergo, my ability to take Voltaire to L-1 with near certainty he would flip scum appears to have come out of thin air.

My vote on e has it's reasons but they need not be public knowledge in order for them to be most effective.

If you think me scummy for that answer then you know where to place your vote.

Found that funny.

But also of interest, this was one of many of PPS's "I work in mysterious ways" messages where he promised his cryptic play style would pay off and we'd all be Watsoning him around.  I don't recall seeing the reveal, though.

[pingpongsam]

Voltaire D1

[pingpongsam]

Also, was it e or Yuma that lynched entirely too fast? My vote at that time was not meant to cause a lynch but to reveal scum intent. Did e replace Yuma? It all runs together, this game has been painfully long.

[Witherweaver]

Voltaire D1

What was the payoff exactly?

[pingpongsam]

Voltaire D1

What was the payoff exactly?

Dead scum. Look I'm not saying it went well from that point on but I was running with what worked initially. Also, at some point the goal was to get mislynch end because I was dice poor with the final message that scum would have preferred anyone else because I was the least attractive target. There was a whole line of thinking that dissipated by the end of D3.

[Witherweaver]

Voltaire D1

What was the payoff exactly?

Dead scum. Look I'm not saying it went well from that point on but I was running with what worked initially. Also, at some point the goal was to get mislynch end because I was dice poor with the final message that scum would have preferred anyone else because I was the least attractive target. There was a whole line of thinking that dissipated by the end of D3.

So the issue, which of course you must see, is that your super sneaky and utterly town Voltaire-hunting methods aren't really distinguishable by the rest of us from a scum partner jumping onto Voltaire to claim town cred later (like, you know, now).

[pingpongsam]

I find it hard to find fault with having correctly hit scum D1. If that creates an issue for you or anyone else they cannot exactly argue that there was a better move to have made. Lynching someone for being on the wagon of dead scum is a flimsy basis for a lynch. It would be truly humiliating for you to throw this game away for mislynching a townie because they were instrumental in lynching scum from the get go.

[Witherweaver]

I find it hard to find fault with having correctly hit scum D1. If that creates an issue for you or anyone else they cannot exactly argue that there was a better move to have made. Lynching someone for being on the wagon of dead scum is a flimsy basis for a lynch. It would be truly humiliating for you to throw this game away for mislynching a townie because they were instrumental in lynching scum from the get go.

So Archetype is town?

[pingpongsam]

I find it hard to find fault with having correctly hit scum D1. If that creates an issue for you or anyone else they cannot exactly argue that there was a better move to have made. Lynching someone for being on the wagon of dead scum is a flimsy basis for a lynch. It would be truly humiliating for you to throw this game away for mislynching a townie because they were instrumental in lynching scum from the get go.

So Archetype is town?

Only if you are scum.

[Witherweaver]

Exactly.  So want to try on a different argument?

[pingpongsam]

I didn't know I was arguing. What was my argument?

[Jimmmmm]

Vote Count 5.3

Beyond Awesome (1): Archetype
Archetype (3): liopoil, Hydrad, pingpongsam (L-1)

not voting (2): Beyond Awesome, Witherweaver

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 5 ends on August 9 at 2pm forum time.

Target: 25
Score: 16

[Archetype]

Yeah, on the other hand, Ash did tell us that PPS like the boldest or something scum player.  It would be pretty diabolical to come up with a fake claim and pretend to not understand it just to seem townie

It's certainly been done. Scum faking mistakes like that I mean.

He's done it before as scum in Time War.

[Archetype]

ww/BA: why would arch vote for me the way he just did if he is town?

I know you didn't say he was town, but here is a reason to suspect him more, I think.

I'll wait for Arch to come back.

I had to go. I decided that BA/WW were Town (looks like that's been confirmed) and so liopoil and PPS were scum. No reason to leave my vote on BA, and I had to go and didn't know when I'd get access again, so I switched to lio. But it looks like I didn't do it right...

So, Vote: liopoil

[Witherweaver]

I'm ready to gamble the game on my read.

Vote: Liopoil

You should all join me.

PPE: Oh, Arch is back.

[Witherweaver]

Guyz?

[Beyond Awesome]

Vote: Liopoil

Out of all the players, I am most confident he's scum.

[Witherweaver]

Whelp, PPS has game if it's him/ARch

[Witherweaver]

He's not on.

[Hydrad]

When does day end?

[Witherweaver]

Tomorrow at 2 or 3 PM

[Witherweaver]

Do you see a reason to wait?

[Hydrad]

Do you see a reason to wait?

I kinda like a arch lynch more but since I do think its a lio/arch team...

I just don't want to throw the game away.

Also even if we lynch town today we have a slight chance if the GR visits one of us and we can vig them and still win barely.

[Witherweaver]

PPS is hammering as scum or town here, so if you don't, he will.  So if you want to wait longer, I can unvote.

[Hydrad]

Ah whatever this day has gone one way to long.

Lets hope I didn't just cost us the game

Vote: Liopoil

[Witherweaver]

Me too.

That's 4 votes, he should be hammered now, and thread will be locked no matter what.

Unvote in case of strange Loved things.

[Witherweaver]

"No matter what" assuming he isn't loved.

[Hydrad]

well if hes loved scum then we can't lynch him at all. then we have to find his parner and hope for a vig.

[Hydrad]

but i'm almost positive hes not loved as both arch and pps have tried voting him. so either hes town or dead.

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, I'm pretty sure he's scum, so I am feeling really good about things.

[Hydrad]

well if he is scum I guess we will have a fun argument in the QT tonight trying to convince each other.

[Beyond Awesome]

In case he is town, this has been one crazy game. Already up at 180 pages, this is the second biggest thread ever in the history of these forums.

[Hydrad]

also I need to maintain my 100% scum hammering rate.

[Hydrad]

In case he is town, this has been one crazy game. Already up at 180 pages, this is the second biggest thread ever in the history of these forums.

whats the biggest?

[Beyond Awesome]

well if he is scum I guess we will have a fun argument in the QT tonight trying to convince each other.

Yes. That is true. I think we should decide in the QT who to lynch next. One of us will be NK'd anyway, and I doubt PPS or Arch can really add anything at this point to exonerate them from getting lynched.

[Archetype]

In case he is town, this has been one crazy game. Already up at 180 pages, this is the second biggest thread ever in the history of these forums.

whats the biggest?

I think Random Stuff? Robz's Masquerade game was big too.

[Beyond Awesome]

In case he is town, this has been one crazy game. Already up at 180 pages, this is the second biggest thread ever in the history of these forums.

whats the biggest?

Random stuff, it has 193 pages. It's doubtful we will manage to get up to that number. Maybe with the after game talk we might be able to reach that though.

[Hydrad]

well arch isn't claiming game or anything so that makes me feel better.

[Beyond Awesome]

In case he is town, this has been one crazy game. Already up at 180 pages, this is the second biggest thread ever in the history of these forums.

whats the biggest?

I think Random Stuff? Robz's Masquerade game was big too.

I looked that up. It went on for 10 days, but has 164 pages.

[pingpongsam]

I was at a meeting, jeez guys.

Vote: liopoil

[pingpongsam]

I believe we are lylo again tomorrow. Also anxious to see what lio's troll does to us.

[Witherweaver]

Jimmmmmmmm where are youuuuuuuuuuuuuu?

[Witherweaver]

Also, he was already hammered PPS

[Witherweaver]

Can't wait to read the speccy, mod, and scum QTs for this game, by the way.

[Hydrad]

Can't wait to read the speccy, mod, and scum QTs for this game, by the way.

I might even read personal QTs for this. this game is crazy

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, I am guessing Lio is scum since neither PPS or Arch are gloating.

[Beyond Awesome]

Assuming Lio was scum, the real giveaway for me was his reaction towards me saying I did not get dice from him. I mean, statistically the odds of the exact amount of dice getting stolen is super low. If I were town and someone said I did not get dice, I would have really been pushing for the lynch. So, ever since that point, I was pretty certain he was scum.

[Witherweaver]

Well, I am guessing Lio is scum since neither PPS or Arch are gloating.

It's possible they have to worry about the vig chance.

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, I am guessing Lio is scum since neither PPS or Arch are gloating.

It's possible they have to worry about the vig chance.

Hmm. Good point there.

[pingpongsam]

Hydrad is the obvious NK. Tomorrow we once again weigh on whether or not PPS has been scum all along.

[Beyond Awesome]

Hydrad is the obvious NK. Tomorrow we once again weigh on whether or not PPS has been scum all along.

Why is Hydrad the obvious NK?

[Hydrad]

Well, I am guessing Lio is scum since neither PPS or Arch are gloating.

It's possible they have to worry about the vig chance.

uhhh if hes town we know they are scum anyways?

[Jimmmmm]

Thread locked.

[Jimmmmm]

Vote Count 5.4 - Final

Archetype (2): liopoil, pingpongsam
liopoil (4): Archetype, Witherweaver, Beyond Awesome, Hydrad

not voting (0)

With 6 alive, it took 4 to lynch.

liopoil has been lynched. He was a Mafia Noble Brigand.

[Jimmmmm]

Target: 25
Score: 16

The Goblin has triumphed!

Tonight's Threat is HYPNOSIS



Night 5 has begun. All Night actions are due on August 11 at 10am forum time.

Whether or not you submit a Night action, all players must post in their Personal QT at least once during the Night.

[Jimmmmm]

Apologies again for the delay. Expect Day 6 to begin in around 5-6 hours.

[Jimmmmm]

A dragon kills Witherweaver and attacks Beyond Awesome and Archetype.

Witherweaver has been killed. He was a Town 3-Shot Saboteur.

Hydrad has the Legacy Stone.

A Dragon has attacked!
Rule: When a die of value n is played, it only counts if a die of value n-1 has previously been played..

The Dragon has attacked Beyond Awesome and Archetype!



Vote Count 6.0

not voting (4): Archetype, Beyond Awesome, Hydrad, pingpongsam

With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Evening begins on August 20 at 3am forum time.
Day 6 ends on August 22 at 3am forum time.

Target: 20
Score: 0


Day 6 has begun!

Thread unlocked.

[Hydrad]

Please tell me with 4 alive it only takes 3 to lynch and not 4

[Jimmmmm]

Please tell me with 4 alive it only takes 3 to lynch and not 4

Fixed.

[Hydrad]

Well anyways I'm going to bed at this moment. But honestly I don't think we should wait this day out to long. This has already been a really long day. I guess arche and pps can put there votes on each other and then me and BA get to decide the fates of this game

[Beyond Awesome]

Does anyone know what Hypnosis did?

[Beyond Awesome]

So, I was reading the mod QT for the previous Mafia game. One of the scum rewards was that a random town player became hated, so we will need to be extra careful with our votes.

On another note, we should properly discuss who is going to roll. I have 7 dice left. Hydrad is out of dice. PPS, I think is out. Arch has some.

So, that probably means me and Arch will roll. I am not sure the two of us will actually be able to beat the monster.

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, I doubt defeating the monster will matter since we get the reward during night anyway. We either lynch correctly and win or we lynch incorrectly and lose.

[Beyond Awesome]

PPS did you give dice to either Hydrad or Arch?

[pingpongsam]

I sent dice to Witherweaver. I really expected Hydrad to get the axe.

Vote: archetype

[pingpongsam]

The idea occurred to send to arch because he was certain to live. I was curious if he claimed to receive or not. In the end I judged it too much WIFOM and there was no utility in whatever he claimed like there was with WW yesterday. While I do not think my dice can be used until the next day I did not want to risk him getting loved or anything helpful with the dice.

Now, as to why WW, either archetype is equally lucky and skillful to use my assertion that hydrad was the obvious NK yesterday against me. Skillful to pick a different target to further smear me and lucky to have gotten the 50/50 between BA/WW right and again skillful to infer I might target the same mason as the previous night. However, I suggest the possibility that the heretofore unknown effect if the Hypnosis attack allowed archetype to see my target (ie I "told" him while in a trance) and thus he made his call based on that information.

[Archetype]

Vote: PPS

No reason to keep this a secret: I have 8 dice and a 12 stored.

[Beyond Awesome]

How many dice did you have left yesterday?

[Jimmmmm]

Vote Count 6.1

Archetype (1): pingpongsam
pingpongsam (1): Archetype

not voting (2): Beyond Awesome, Hydrad

With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Evening begins on August 20 at 3am forum time.
Day 6 ends on August 22 at 3am forum time.

Target: 20
Score: 0

[pingpongsam]

Is there anything unsaid at this point?

[Hydrad]

Is there anything unsaid at this point?

not to sure. Just curious in a 50/50 like this how often does town choose right? do they usually get it or not?

[Archetype]

How many dice did you have left yesterday?

At the end? 8. So, no dice were stolen.

[Beyond Awesome]

How many dice did you have stolen the previous day?

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, why didn't you roll more dice yesterday?

[Beyond Awesome]

Also, how many dice did you start the game with?

[Archetype]

I guess since this is the last day, claiming everything doesn't hurt. I started with 10. mail-mi didn't roll any D1 and nothing happened to them that night. The following day, mail-mi rolled 4 which churned out 8 numbers {11 1 3 11 1 1 3 3}. He stored an 11 and played an 11 and 3. He went into that night with 6 dice and an 11 stored. That's when I took over. I received 5 dice from faust's thing, which put me at 11 dice. The following day, I rolled 6 dice and got {6 6 2 5 2 9}. I played the 9 to defeat the monster and stored the 6. I now had 5 dice and an 11 and 6 stored. That night, I was visited by both the Mentalist and the Dice Vendor. I was running low on dice and thought those were the only two NPCs, and since I couldn't afford to use the Mentalist, I sacrificed both the 11 and the 6 to the Dice Vendor which put me at 18 dice with none stored. Liopoil claimed to have given dice, which I assume is where the extra dice came from. I didn't roll the following day, but at the end of that next night I lost 6 dice. I rolled 4 dice the following day, which is doubled to 8 and I got {1 9 1 4 2 10 10 12}. Played the 9 and one of the 1s and stored the 12. So, now I have 8 dice and a 12 stored.

Also, why didn't you roll more dice yesterday?

I don't know. I thought a No Lynch wasn't too unlikely, so I decided to keep some dice to roll the next day in case I didn't get a 12 from my roll and figured 8 dice was enough to pull at least
11. Well, it wasn't.

[Hydrad]

wow your amount of dice rolled also doubles? thats awesome.

[Hydrad]

well anyways it doesn't look like anyone feels like talking much this last day. So should we just decide BA or keep waiting

[Beyond Awesome]

I am actually rereading just to make sure. I don't want to make any mistakes with who we lynch.

How much did The Mentalist stuff cost again?

[Hydrad]

I am actually rereading just to make sure. I don't want to make any mistakes with who we lynch.

How much did The Mentalist stuff cost again?

all i remember is 20 for cop? i think

[Archetype]

Do you guys want me to do a reread on PPS? I mean, WW already pulled up some good stuff during his targeted reread so you could go look there, but I don't want to waste my time constructing a huge case if you've already made up your mind. Though, I'll give you the short version:

His role name "Swindler" makes no sense as what he claims to be - It makes much more sense as a dice stealing power of some kind. If you don't believe that the Dice Destroying power is factional, you have to assume PPS is scum. He's also been generally scummy all game. Constantly switching votes to push a wagon through, rolling all 6 of his dice that one time, refusing to use his power almost all of the game even though what he claims it to be isn't even that anti-town, and his position on the Voltaire wagon found here just scream of bussing and I've said so since I subbed in.

[Archetype]

I am actually rereading just to make sure. I don't want to make any mistakes with who we lynch.

How much did The Mentalist stuff cost again?

all i remember is 20 for cop? i think

It was 20 for a Cop and 15 for a Role Cop. You can only investigate people who have previously been visited by the Mentalist.

[Beyond Awesome]

How was it when you rolled the 9 that one day that you did not discard a die? I am assuming when you roll doubles you can store one for free, but being able to store one for free on a non-tactician day sounds a bit strange for me.

Why didn't you role cop? I mean, okay we don't find out alignment, but we could have found out if someone was lying about their role name like Lio did?

[Hydrad]

We should actually still try to kill the monster before we lynch though. If we get lucky we could get the doctor one again and win the game even if we mislynch

[Archetype]

How was it when you rolled the 9 that one day that you did not discard a die? I am assuming when you roll doubles you can store one for free, but being able to store one for free on a non-tactician day sounds a bit strange for me.

Why didn't you role cop? I mean, okay we don't find out alignment, but we could have found out if someone was lying about their role name like Lio did?

Only Mafia can use the Role Cop.

You have to spend a die to play a die? I just looked at my QT and Jimmmmm never subtracted a die for that.

[Beyond Awesome]

We should actually still try to kill the monster before we lynch though. If we get lucky we could get the doctor one again and win the game even if we mislynch

Very well.

[Hydrad]

So if possible someone should roll and try to get a 10? then if we get a 11 we kill it with 2 dice?
BA was the person you targeted able to roll 10-11-12?

[Beyond Awesome]

So if possible someone should roll and try to get a 10? then if we get a 11 we kill it with 2 dice?
BA was the person you targeted able to roll 10-11-12?

No. I got the result 1 to 9.

[pingpongsam]

ho hum

[Hydrad]

ok I think if we are going to beat the monster we should have someone start with a 9 or 10. as I don't think the first number we play will count.

If we start with a 9 then all we need is for someone to roll a 10 and 11 and the monster will be dead.

Does anyone disagree with this? If we agree with it I think we should have the person that can only roll 1-9 today roll first so that the other people have the greatest chance to beat it.

[pingpongsam]

There are only 2 town players with dice. That said, I suppose if archetype doesn't play along it outs him. He says he has a 12 stored so someone not him should go first.

[Archetype]

There are only 2 town players with dice. That said, I suppose if archetype doesn't play along it outs him. He says he has a 12 stored so someone not him should go first.

I think PPS just slipped here. BA and I are the only two with dice. From Town!PPS's perspective, I'm scum.

[Beyond Awesome]

That sure sounds like a scum slip to me.

[Hydrad]

I may be missing it but doesn't it mean PPS is saying the the 2 town players is him and BA? and then if arch doesn't play we couldn't kill the monster so if arch doesn't play that would out him as scum?

Thats how i understood it.

[Beyond Awesome]

PPS do you have any dice left?

[Archetype]

PPS do you have any dice left?

Well, I just checked back on the previous page and PPS made no mention of having dice.

[Beyond Awesome]

Arch who did you send the dice vendor to after you got it?

[Archetype]

Arch who did you send the dice vendor to after you got it?

Hydrad.

[pingpongsam]

I have no dice. I thought everyone else dido thus, my statement that only 2 town players have dice. If anyone other than archetype also claims no dice decrease my number by 1 for each person. Conf town Faust confirmed my lack of dice.

I was visited by the love doctor last night so if it is scum controlled...

[pingpongsam]

Who loses track of where the dice remain, scum or town?

[Hydrad]

I have no dice. I thought everyone else dido thus, my statement that only 2 town players have dice. If anyone other than archetype also claims no dice decrease my number by 1 for each person. Conf town Faust confirmed my lack of dice.

I was visited by the love doctor last night so if it is scum controlled...

You were visited by the love doctor last night? Did you pick any options?

[Beyond Awesome]

Has an NPC ever visited two people on the same night? I don't recall that ever occurring.

[Archetype]

I have no dice. I thought everyone else dido thus, my statement that only 2 town players have dice. If anyone other than archetype also claims no dice decrease my number by 1 for each person. Conf town Faust confirmed my lack of dice.

I was visited by the love doctor last night so if it is scum controlled...

I don't believe that you could of thought that BA and Hydrad both had dice. Just 2 posts before your first post of the day, BA said that Hydrad had no dice. 

I'm ready to roll and try to beat the Monster. If we do beat it, I say we No Lynch and hope for the best with whatever reward we get and the Grim Reaper.

[Hydrad]

I have no dice. I thought everyone else dido thus, my statement that only 2 town players have dice. If anyone other than archetype also claims no dice decrease my number by 1 for each person. Conf town Faust confirmed my lack of dice.

I was visited by the love doctor last night so if it is scum controlled...

I don't believe that you could of thought that BA and Hydrad both had dice. Just 2 posts before your first post of the day, BA said that Hydrad had no dice. 

I'm ready to roll and try to beat the Monster. If we do beat it, I say we No Lynch and hope for the best with whatever reward we get and the Grim Reaper.

I don't know why we would no lynch. If we lynch after beating it if we get it wrong we could get the doctor thing or even the gr and kill the other person. I think nolynch just let's me or BA die and have to make the same decision the next day?

[Hydrad]

Ok on a plane right now will be back soon hopefully

[pingpongsam]

I have no dice. I thought everyone else dido thus, my statement that only 2 town players have dice. If anyone other than archetype also claims no dice decrease my number by 1 for each person. Conf town Faust confirmed my lack of dice.

I was visited by the love doctor last night so if it is scum controlled...

I don't believe that you could of thought that BA and Hydrad both had dice. Just 2 posts before your first post of the day, BA said that Hydrad had no dice. 

I'm ready to roll and try to beat the Monster. If we do beat it, I say we No Lynch and hope for the best with whatever reward we get and the Grim Reaper.

You don't agree with anything I say because you are scum. While I am free to agree I see what you are doing with every post because you are scum. That said, you've proved my point; you are keenly aware of the dice status. All I need to know is that you are scum seeing as I have no dice and if we lynch you we win. You, on the other hand have an investment in killing the monster and keeping up appearances.

As for the love doctor I was asked about; I have no dice so no I could not pick any options which supports the theory that the love doctor is scum controlled but doesn't prove it.

[Archetype]

I have no dice. I thought everyone else dido thus, my statement that only 2 town players have dice. If anyone other than archetype also claims no dice decrease my number by 1 for each person. Conf town Faust confirmed my lack of dice.

I was visited by the love doctor last night so if it is scum controlled...

I don't believe that you could of thought that BA and Hydrad both had dice. Just 2 posts before your first post of the day, BA said that Hydrad had no dice. 

I'm ready to roll and try to beat the Monster. If we do beat it, I say we No Lynch and hope for the best with whatever reward we get and the Grim Reaper.

I don't know why we would no lynch. If we lynch after beating it if we get it wrong we could get the doctor thing or even the gr and kill the other person. I think nolynch just let's me or BA die and have to make the same decision the next day?

Well, not quite.

You've said the choices for GR are Lynchproofer, Doctor, and Vig. I don't think you've stated how much each one costs (I think you said the vig costs 15?) but if BA and I are the only ones that have dice, stored or otherwise, only him or I could get something if we really are visited by the GR. If PPS isn't lynched, he'll just kill BA. If we defeat the Monster, we should definitely no lynch since we get the reward and a chance for me to Doctor someone (If we were to defeat the Monster, I think we'd have to use my 12).

If we don't defeat the Monster, we have to lynch. One of the threats could be "kill a Townie" (it was one last game) and if we no lynch we'd certainly lose (one of BA, Me, Hydrad dies and PPS shoots whichever one of me/BA didn't). Maybe Jimmmmm changed it, but I don't think it'd be worth the risk.

[Archetype]

I have no dice. I thought everyone else dido thus, my statement that only 2 town players have dice. If anyone other than archetype also claims no dice decrease my number by 1 for each person. Conf town Faust confirmed my lack of dice.

I was visited by the love doctor last night so if it is scum controlled...

I don't believe that you could of thought that BA and Hydrad both had dice. Just 2 posts before your first post of the day, BA said that Hydrad had no dice. 

I'm ready to roll and try to beat the Monster. If we do beat it, I say we No Lynch and hope for the best with whatever reward we get and the Grim Reaper.

You don't agree with anything I say because you are scum. While I am free to agree I see what you are doing with every post because you are scum. That said, you've proved my point; you are keenly aware of the dice status. All I need to know is that you are scum seeing as I have no dice and if we lynch you we win. You, on the other hand have an investment in killing the monster and keeping up appearances.

As for the love doctor I was asked about; I have no dice so no I could not pick any options which supports the theory that the love doctor is scum controlled but doesn't prove it.

Keenly aware? BA said what everyone had right when the day started. I mapped out mail-mi and mine actions since the beginning of the game. You've slipped, man and just shown that you don't read what people post.

[pingpongsam]

It is either lynch PPS or Archetype, there are no alternative lynches. Delaying that decision by way of No Lynch serves no useful purpose because the decision must be made and neither possibility will get removed from the table at night. Attempting to appear towny by arguing for No Lynch is reaching but I can't blame you. It's a decent gambit considering a Vig is just as likely to hit me as you and you get the quasi-cred if the other 2 guys don't already see through this ploy.

[pingpongsam]

A self-analysis:

As scum I tend to go down in flames early or remain relatively unsuspected right to the end. Generally I get late game implicated by PoE but no one can believe or wants to believe they've been fooled so well. Never as scum have I been suspected to be scum throughout the entirety of the game without getting lynched.

As town I tend to be suspected from the beginning. Occasionally I am D1 lynched either for brash play or because scum fears me. Generally though it looks just like this, all the way to the bitter end and often a final contender for the mislynch. There was that game where Axxle was scum and Robz had to make the call that felt just like this game is going down.

These thoughts were in mind while in the shower when I do my best Mafia thinking and I thought I'd put them in black and white since I am still struggling to identify exactly what I've learned this game. I suppose getting clarity on my role and its functions early on is a good lesson to take with me.

[Hydrad]

You realize if the love doctor visited you last night you could of gained dice by becoming hated to help us kill the monster right? What made you not do that

[pingpongsam]

You realize if the love doctor visited you last night you could of gained dice by becoming hated to help us kill the monster right? What made you not do that

Geez, I went to my QT to verify this. I was wrong, I got visited by the mentalist instead. He does say that since his advisor is dead I can pick who to send him to next. So, that whole line of reasoning about the love doctor is moot. I'd like to remind everyone I am in the first 3 months of my first child as some sort of excuse for this level of absentmindedness.

[Hydrad]

Ok well I'm just going to say. I have aquired 2 dice and am going to roll both of them to try and get a 9. If I don't it looks like it not possible to kill the monster so we may as well vote

[Beyond Awesome]

Ok well I'm just going to say. I have aquired 2 dice and am going to roll both of them to try and get a 9. If I don't it looks like it not possible to kill the monster so we may as well vote

Sounds good.

[Archetype]

Did anyone claim to recieve the Mentalist yesterday?


Why not try to roll a 10? Or...wait, ok. Nevermind. Now I see what you guys were doing.

[Hydrad]

Lucky.

play:9

[Jimmmmm]

Hydrad plays a 9
Score: 0

[pingpongsam]

Did anyone claim to recieve the Mentalist yesterday?

If your angle of attack is to smear me for not reading other peoples' posts then it might behoove you to read other peoples' posts. That I confused receiving the mentalist for having received the love doctor should be great material for you to continue your smear campaign but you would have to bother to read that stuff first.

[Beyond Awesome]

I am going to roll next.

[Archetype]

Did anyone claim to recieve the Mentalist yesterday?

If your angle of attack is to smear me for not reading other peoples' posts then it might behoove you to read other peoples' posts. That I confused receiving the mentalist for having received the love doctor should be great material for you to continue your smear campaign but you would have to bother to read that stuff first.

The post I was referring to you not reading was literally one page before yours. I was asking because BA had said he was rereading things so maybe he had an answer. I have read every post this day. I haven't pointed out every single thing because you react like you did here. So, I'm just hoping BA and Hydrad take note of it because, hey, they can read too and I don't need to immediatly grab and emphasize something that happened 24 hours ago. Well, besides your scumslip. I missed that the first time I read your post.

What is your case on me? All I've heard so far is you saying I'm trying to make you out to be more scummy than you are when all I'm doing is laying out the facts.

Hydrad and BA: Do either of you have the Love Doctor?

[pingpongsam]

I don't need a case. I know without any doubt whatsoever that you are scum. You are the one that needs a case in order to not appear to tbe the scum that you are.

[Archetype]

You shouting "I'm Town! He's scum!" only speaks to the inability to show how I could be scum.

[pingpongsam]

You shouting "I'm Town! He's scum!" only speaks to the inability to show how I could be scum.

No, it speaks to a futility in doing the things you keep trying to get me to do that you as scum have to do (eg make cases) when at this point the game speaks for itself. Your best bet at this point is to argue that liopoil colored me scum the whole game for the distance garnered at this point.
I am here today because I played poorly (or made a poor gambit to get mislynched early) and am the easiest mark the final mislynch. Cases on me should be plentiful. You are here today because mail-mi played an excellent opening game (which I can be cased or credited for questioning intently) and you managed to avoid any drama between now and then. Cases on you therefore are going to be thin, which is why you want them made.
Ultimately it is a 50/50 guess for those who have to decide this game.

[Beyond Awesome]

Play: 10

[Jimmmmm]

Beyond Awesome plays a 10
Score: 10

[Archetype]

Play: 10

I rolled {10, 8, 4, 8, 4, 4, 4, 10}.

[Archetype]

We no lynch now, right?

Vote: No Lynch. Hopefully I'll get the GR.

[Jimmmmm]

Archetype plays a 10
Score: 20

[Jimmmmm]

Vote Count 6.2

Archetype (1): pingpongsam
no lynch (1): Archetype


not voting (2): Beyond Awesome, Hydrad

With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Evening begins on August 20 at 3am forum time.
Day 6 ends on August 22 at 3am forum time.

Target: 20
Score: 20

[Beyond Awesome]

Hydard, we should probably casts our votes soon. I am still finishing my final reread, but right now, I believe the person we want to lynch is opposite of who we were discussing in the QT. Do you agree or disagree?

[Hydrad]

Umm I Had my doubts but I guess I'll keep rereading also then. I'm against the no lynch though I think. I think we should decide this game today. And I'm almost tempted to do it before a monster attack.

[Hydrad]

Also I don't know if we need to hide who we are voting for. If anything it might give us more info if they try to defend themselves. I'll let you decide if you wanna say who we are thinking of voting.

Also one thing I just thought of. Pps ability is actually super pro town. There is almost no downside to it I think. If he was scum and just made it seem like he didn't understand his ability so that he wouldn't use it. But his figuring out really did seem real. Just posting for more information

[Beyond Awesome]

Yes. I agree his ability is super pro town which if he were scum gives him reason to not use it. Also, him targeting WW is very suspicious. And, PPS has been super scummy, but my gut is telling me Archetype is scum. I haven't finished my reading yet though.

[Archetype]

Well, I'm leaving for my V/LA, so Vote:PPS. I don't know if I'm the person you two are thinking of lynching, but if I am, please don't lynch me when I'm away. I'll answer questions when I get back.

[Hydrad]

I just had a crazy theory on how the dragon attack may have worked. My theory is that your dice wouldn't count for being played. So let's say BA played the 10. My guess is 11 still wouldn't be possible.

I know this is a far fetched idea with no basis so we shouldn't trust it at all. But if it was true that would mean pps is scum.

Basically though I'm posting this for after the game to see how many mechanics I guessed correctly.

Also it's really hard to reread with a phone I wish I had my laptop right now

[Jimmmmm]

Vote:PPS

Correct syntax thanks.

[Archetype]

Vote:PPS

Correct syntax thanks.

I'm really bad at that.

Vote: PPS

[pingpongsam]

Just to be clear, archetype won't be back until Evening is over but before the Day is over.

[Hydrad]

So day ends in like 14 hours right? How's you reread going BA.

[Beyond Awesome]

So day ends in like 14 hours right? How's you reread going BA.

I'm still leaning Arch, but it's close. Lio put a lot of suspicion on both PPS and Arch, so that makes things very hard.

[Hydrad]

I think I'm going with pps but it's still close for me to. WW was super sure it was pps and pps ability is actually a really strong town power. The fact that lio busses pps and pps said he had a strong town read on lio is weird too. Sorry I can't grab quotes well from my phone. So that'sy logic side once again.

Gut side says it's arch as pps gives off a towny vibe that didn't understand his role while arch is scummy but acting town by giving us all the info he can.

My gut has been much better then my logic side though as I don't think trusting logic has been right much at all since I stared playing mafia while following my gut had given great results. Dang I almost wish I had died so that WW could make this decision instead

[Archetype]

I am currently at a Dairy Queen. What questions do you guys have?

[Hydrad]

I am currently at a Dairy Queen. What questions do you guys have?

Honestly I don't have really any questions. The only one I kinda have is you sent me the dice vendor a couple nights ago. Do you remember why you sent it to me?

[Archetype]

I am currently at a Dairy Queen. What questions do you guys have?

Honestly I don't have really any questions. The only one I kinda have is you sent me the dice vendor a couple nights ago. Do you remember why you sent it to me?

You were my biggest townread at the time. I figured you'd make the best use of it.

[pingpongsam]

My final words. Go with your gut, it is right. Don't fix what ain't broke. If the gut thing has been working for you then go with it here, too. There is sufficient cognitive dissonance to derail the intellectual choice but your gut read that I am town and arch is scum is correct. Ultimately it is 50/50 and ultimately it is just a game but if you go with your gut here and if you do we will when and when that happens I will have major respect for your gut reads in the future. Well, I suppose I already do because your gut is right here regardless how you vote. I'm just asking you to honor it.

[Hydrad]

4 ish hours left. You almost done BA? Because we are starting to run out of time

[Archetype]

PPS is giving himself too much credit. He scumslipped. I'm not sure how you can ignore that.

[Beyond Awesome]

4 ish hours left. You almost done BA? Because we are starting to run out of time

VOTE: Archetype

If you really fell strongly about PPS, I will change my vote.

[Beyond Awesome]

Sorry.

Not sure if capping VOTE works

Vote: Archetype

[Beyond Awesome]

I really hope I'm right with this one.

[Hydrad]

Vote: archetype

I'm sorry ww I'm going to trust my gut.

[Archetype]

Wow.

[Hydrad]

Are you town?

[Beyond Awesome]

If I got this wrong, I want to say I am very sorry town. I was 55/45 on Arch. So, it was a close call for me, but my reread made me feel like he was more likely to be scum over PPS.

[Archetype]

I just don't see how could have ignored a scumslip like that.

[Beyond Awesome]

I just don't see how could have ignored a scumslip like that.

I took a lot of things into account. I did not ignore the Mentalist/LD thing if that is what you are referring to.

[Archetype]

There are only 2 town players with dice. That said, I suppose if archetype doesn't play along it outs him. He says he has a 12 stored so someone not him should go first.

I think PPS just slipped here. BA and I are the only two with dice. From Town!PPS's perspective, I'm scum.

This.

[Hydrad]

I can't tell if it's scum arche thinking he played it right and lost or town arche disappointed that we chose wrong.

[Hydrad]

I saw it. I just. I don't know. I need jimm here

[Beyond Awesome]

Yes, PPS saying that baffled me a bit, as well. But, a lot of things happened this game that have baffled me.

[Hydrad]

Jimms online. Let's hope

[Jimmmmm]

Thread Locked.

[Jimmmmm]

Vote Count 6.3 - Final

Archetype (3): pingpongsam, Beyond Awesome, Hydrad
no lynch (1): Archetype

not voting (0)

With 4 alive, it took 3 to lynch.

[Jimmmmm]

Vote Count 6.3 - Final

Archetype (3): pingpongsam, Beyond Awesome, Hydrad
no lynch (1): Archetype

not voting (0)

With 4 alive, it took 3 to lynch.

Archetype has been lynched. He was a Mafia Tactician.



Game over. Town wins!

[Beyond Awesome]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Beyond Awesome]

Oh my god, I thought I had lost. This game was crazy, crazy and a lot of fun. By the way Arch, it was really close for me with you and PPS.

[Jimmmmm]

Mod QT: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/fTA74DvqKqt
Mafia QT: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/Px3B9rBithi
Council QT: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/vrg9CVX4Y5bvU
Spectator QTs: http://quicktopic.com/50/H/6EPg8Ca8CJ4, http://quicktopic.com/50/H/kfFbkfUGPPBPN

All Personal QTs can be accessed through the Mod QT.

[Jimmmmm]

I'm about to go away for the weekend. I have plenty of thoughts on the game, but only a few for now.

I think overall the game was a success in that players seemed to enjoy it and I certainly learned a lot. There was plenty of room for improvement, most notably the targets being generally too low, making the Monsters too easy.

It was a very difficult game to moderate, and while mistakes were made by both myself and EFHW, I think we did pretty well considering. Props to EFHW for quickly catching on.

For some reason communication between myself and players was a lot more difficult than I anticipated. Most questions asked were either things that I considered to be very well explained or things that were deliberately withheld, while other times assumptions were made incorrectly about things that I also considered well explained. I think the lesson for mods from that is to make extra effort to ensure everything is clear and unambiguous, and the lesson for players is to make sure everything is read thoroughly.

[Hydrad]

Yaaaaaaaa.

I think I just need to throw logic out the window in this game. I'm so happy though. I was worried when jimmm took so long to post the kill since I though that meant the game was still going

[Jimmmmm]

I was worried when jimmm took so long to post the kill since I though that meant the game was still going

Yeah sorry about that - it suddenly got busy at work so I had to wait until I got home.

[Beyond Awesome]

Started reading the speccy. Love where Ash says WW and I are giving the scum performance of the year.

[Hydrad]

Oh man it's really interesting reading the specy and things. I'm so happy I won my first game I joined and think I'm hooked on mafia now.

Also lio you mentioned you don't get how my logic and gut are different. With logic I try to understand what scum would do. With gut I'm following how people are reacting or the emotions they seem to be using in their posts. Then see if those emotions make sense as town or scum

[Hydrad]

Amazing game though jimmm I'm happy this was my first mafia experience.

[Hydrad]

Also I'm glad we won using honest means instead of me trying the underhanded tactic I discussed in my QT. Although it wouldn't of actually worked anyways.

[Beyond Awesome]

Sorry guys that you had to wait so many days for this day to finish. I really wanted to make sure I made the right call, so I did go back and reread, but I was busy with life so couldn't reread everything all at once.

[Hydrad]

At least we got the right one. It would have been terrible if we waited all this time and went for the wrong one.

[Hydrad]

Also I mentioned this in the council room but it looks like we never had to worry about scum being loved. They could only get as loved as how many town members were in the game. So we got lucky.

[Beyond Awesome]

For the next game, I think the Council reward should be that scum are forced to claim Masons and post in the Council QT. 

[Beyond Awesome]

Also I mentioned this in the council room but it looks like we never had to worry about scum being loved. They could only get as loved as how many town members were in the game. So we got lucky.

I saw that. Interesting.

[Hydrad]

I will say though that this game was stressful for me. Especially when I had to decide to believe the ww/BA or not part. I'm really glad I listened to you Asher and trusted me. I was on the verge of just blindly following people so that I wouldn't have to make a decision.

[ashersky]

You didn't listen to me, though, you lynched me! 

I still can't believe any of you for one second could think I was scum.  It was blatantly obvious how town I was.  Even Faust went back on his own beliefs and lynched me.

Glad to get the win, but the WW/BA scumteam absolutely deserved the win here.

[Hydrad]

I listened to the part that said I should trust myself. And ya the lynch on you was me thinking you were the most likely dice destroyer with your vt claim. Instead of being focused on killing that power role I should of been focused on hitting scum. My bad.

[ashersky]

I listened to the part that said I should trust myself. And ya the lynch on you was me thinking you were the most likely dice destroyer with your vt claim. Instead of being focused on killing that power role I should of been focused on hitting scum. My bad.

Oh, right.  That was good advice, and you took it.  We'll done there.

VT was a tough role to play.

[Hydrad]

Ya VT in a game like this would be really hard. Probably the hardest role for town to play as you wouldn't even have a reference to see what type of powers are possible.

[ashersky]

Can someone please explain how the WW/BA scumteam was going to convince people the crazy mason "prize" was in any tangible way actually good for town?

I sincerely believe that if what they had claimed was actually the truth, town would have lost, or at least made the game much closer.

[ashersky]

By closer I meant longer.

[pingpongsam]

Congratulations to everyone. What an intense game. The WW/BA thing was not clear at all until way after the fact. This is definitely my most ill deserved win although I give myself credit for my negotiation of the final day. I believe detaching from any further case making was the right play here. Giving the remaining town full leeway to make the decision without trying to control it was the right play. The rest of the game is an embarrassment for me.

[Eevee]

.. WW was scum again?

Man, I feel for you.

[Eevee]

.. WW was scum again?

Man, I feel for you.

Oh, nevermind. He wasn't.

[Witherweaver]

Good work Hydrad/BA.  Thanks for saving me!

[Witherweaver]

Also, this was my first non-blitz town win. 

And this game was pretty epic.  That Day 4 was really, really frustrating.  I think Hydrad deserves a ton of credit (and probably MVP) for having good reads and thinking critically about everything.

[Witherweaver]

From mod QT:

pingpongsam (Swindler - gives out 1d12 8-sided dice)

Not.  Complicated.  At.  All.

[Witherweaver]

Well, except "Swindler" is somewhat misleading.. I got hung up on that part.

[Witherweaver]

For Ash:

COUNCIL
"Masonhood" with 2 Masons and 1-2 Neighbours (2 with 8 or more people alive at the start of the Night). The Masons are confirmed Town to each other and told each other's identities but may post in the QT under given pseudonyms.

You can argue with Jimmm about this

[Witherweaver]

Oh here is PPS PM:

Each Night, including Night 0, you may name another player by typing Give: Player in your Personal QT.

If you do so, the named player will gain 1d12 dice to their supply.

Whenever another player gains dice to their supply from you, through your Night action or otherwise, the gained dice will be normal 8-sided dice instead of normal 12-sided dice.

The player will receive no indication of this.

Whenever a player with both 8-sided dice and 12-sided dice in their supply rolls, they will alternate between the two.

I would have modified the first line to say:

If you do so, the named player will gain 1d12 8-sided dice to their supply.

I know it's reduntant, and the wording is correct as it is, but overkill is okay.

[liopoil]

Ugh. So. Close. So many things that could have gone even slightly diferrently and we would've had it. Well done.

[Voltaire]

Can someone please explain how the WW/BA scumteam was going to convince people the crazy mason "prize" was in any tangible way actually good for town?

Town got two freakin' Masons as a prize. It was a huge reward for them. The whole pseudonym thing makes sense as a way for Jimmmmm to inject enough uncertainty into the situation so it's not giving town two ICs late in the game (which is what it was). I honestly believe your opposition crossed the line from "reasonable debate" to "absurdity", as shown by your continual assertion that they are scum post-game. Which is a little funny, I admit.

I count this one a moral victory for me being lynched as scum D1 and it not destroying my team instantly. Huzzah! 

Overall, LOVED the game. A million props to Jimmmmm. Dice mafia!

[Voltaire]

Oh, and the thing I've wanted to say all along - my rolls were actually that terrible! I didn't roll anything higher than a 6 and played a 5 D1. I actually forgot for a moment that we were playing with D12s this game after I got my results.

[liopoil]

Sorry if I sound bitter, I'm just pretty disappointed because there were multiple times when it looked like we had it won. Like the night before masons showed up, and when we had a chance to quickhammer pps...

Anyway, the game was still very fun to play. I especially liked the personal QTs, mine has 350 posts in it. But most of it is just my ramblings... which I didn't really think through that much, so take it all with a grain of salt. http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/kXufRJJKpMYac

Town got two freakin' Masons as a prize. It was a huge reward for them.

Masons who happened to be the two players we planned to get lynched. On D4. And that's why we should have gone along with it and gotten them lynched... because ash would go down next.

Oh, and it's really a shame that I brought up that dice destruction could be factional. I don't know why I did that.

Oh, and the thing I've wanted to say all along - my rolls were actually that terrible! I didn't roll anything higher than a 6 and played a 5 D1. I actually forgot for a moment that we were playing with D12s this game after I got my results.

wow! How many did you roll?

My rolls were really that consistently mediocre... over 5 days all the dice I rolled were in the range 5-9, except for a 2 and 3 on D1.

[Witherweaver]

Also, this game is making me move towards a lynch all lurkers policy.  Mail-Mi/Archetype's usual lurking play style made it impossible for me to read them, especially because they both had VLA's at various times, and repeatedly.  I often found myself thinking, "well, If Arch wasn't on vacation this would be very scummy for him.. but he might just not have access..".

Plus, Mail-Mi having almost no interactions Day 1 made it really hard when he was still around Day 5,6.

[Voltaire]

Oh, and the thing I've wanted to say all along - my rolls were actually that terrible! I didn't roll anything higher than a 6 and played a 5 D1. I actually forgot for a moment that we were playing with D12s this game after I got my results.

wow! How many did you roll?

5.

[Hydrad]

Lio I agree the masons made the game extremely difficult. But I feel like you had the chance to myslynch one of the masons and then we would be in a horrible spot. But I also see if I was scum and 2 people claimed masons I guess I would also feel like it would be super hard lynching the masons.

Overall ya that was unlucky as scum that we got council at such an importent time.

[Witherweaver]

You didn't listen to me, though, you lynched me! 

I still can't believe any of you for one second could think I was scum.  It was blatantly obvious how town I was.  Even Faust went back on his own beliefs and lynched me.

Glad to get the win, but the WW/BA scumteam absolutely deserved the win here.

Ash acts blatantly scummy, "It was blatantly obvious how town I was."  I act obviously towny, and flip town, and Ash still thinks I'm scum~

[2.71828.....]

If you read the speccy you will see that I never had any doubt about Ash being town.  One thing that really confused me is why no one brought up the fact that he hammered Voltaire D1.  Scum just doesn't do that.  Especially not on a quickhammer.  Maybe if it is later in the day and it is clear that Voltaire was going to be the lynch, but it is too easy to post a "hold up guys, lets think about this a little more" and not be scummy for it at all.

[2.71828.....]

Also, I want to repeat about how awesome of a game this was.  Even though I got in the game a bit late, I absolutely loved my role as town thief, and just wish town (my wagon was 100% town) hadn't lynched me so fast.  The dice rolling, monsters, prizes, and everything added an extra dimension to the game that made it super enjoyable.

[Witherweaver]

If you read the speccy you will see that I never had any doubt about Ash being town.  One thing that really confused me is why no one brought up the fact that he hammered Voltaire D1.  Scum just doesn't do that.  Especially not on a quickhammer.  Maybe if it is later in the day and it is clear that Voltaire was going to be the lynch, but it is too easy to post a "hold up guys, lets think about this a little more" and not be scummy for it at all.

We brought it up a good deal on Day 2.

[EFHW]

Jimmmmm, this was a great game to watch, even though SO complicated to mod!  I thought the 4 night merchants were great.  It's usually so dull at night if you aren't scum.  It was a really close game, too. It could easily have gone the other way.  The town rewards were a bit too swingy.  Live and learn!

[2.71828.....]

If you read the speccy you will see that I never had any doubt about Ash being town.  One thing that really confused me is why no one brought up the fact that he hammered Voltaire D1.  Scum just doesn't do that.  Especially not on a quickhammer.  Maybe if it is later in the day and it is clear that Voltaire was going to be the lynch, but it is too easy to post a "hold up guys, lets think about this a little more" and not be scummy for it at all.

We brought it up a good deal on Day 2.

And then never talked about it Day 3, when Ash was lynched.

[ashersky]

You didn't listen to me, though, you lynched me! 

I still can't believe any of you for one second could think I was scum.  It was blatantly obvious how town I was.  Even Faust went back on his own beliefs and lynched me.

Glad to get the win, but the WW/BA scumteam absolutely deserved the win here.

Ash acts blatantly scummy, "It was blatantly obvious how town I was."  I act obviously towny, and flip town, and Ash still thinks I'm scum~

 My understanding of the setup is that there were exactly three mafia and a second scumteam of two.  The two had a factional power that was passive and provided a town flip for the first one that was night killed.  It's all in the mod QT.

[ashersky]

Also, this game was epic.

I look forward to modding Jimmmmm in Dune.

[Beyond Awesome]

You didn't listen to me, though, you lynched me! 

I still can't believe any of you for one second could think I was scum.  It was blatantly obvious how town I was.  Even Faust went back on his own beliefs and lynched me.

Glad to get the win, but the WW/BA scumteam absolutely deserved the win here.

Ash acts blatantly scummy, "It was blatantly obvious how town I was."  I act obviously towny, and flip town, and Ash still thinks I'm scum~

 My understanding of the setup is that there were exactly three mafia and a second scumteam of two.  The two had a factional power that was passive and provided a town flip for the first one that was night killed.  It's all in the mod QT.

Alright, you've caught us. 

[Witherweaver]

So seriously, how should we have handled Masons differently?  Should we have not used the pseudonyms?  Should we have announced it in the QT or not?

[Voltaire]

So seriously, how should we have handled Masons differently?  Should we have not used the pseudonyms?  Should we have announced it in the QT or not?

I don't think you did anything wrong. Had I been in the game and town, I would have believed you instantly. There's no way the timing works out if you're scum. Also, Occam's razor.

[Beyond Awesome]

Overall, reading through some of the QTs, I think both scum and town made a lot of mistakes. Overall, I actually feel town played poorly. Yuma brought up in the speccy about looking up the previous dice game, and I did that but not until D4 was over. The tunneling of Faust was pretty ridiculous.

I think the Masons reward might be overpowered, especially when combined with the clue. I think having or the other might be okay, and maybe they should be an earlier reward rather than later on because a lot of people found WW and I the scummiest town players. So, for the next dice game, I think Jimmm should only allow one of these as the rewards.

Also, scum should have won some. To balance that either players need to be given less dice or the targets need to be higher. I think the other rewards were balanced. I even think Masosn could be balanced, but only if it is given early on rather than redeeming town players who are seen as scummy midway through the game. However, creating 3 ICs is overkill.

[Witherweaver]

I don't know, we were dangerously close to losing multiple times.  I think PPS was in serious risk of being mislynched for the lose on both days 5 and 6.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, I looked up the Modern Community thread. That game finished at nearly the same point as this game. The post where Scum wins takes place at the top of page 186. This game ended mid-185. So, both games are very close in size. This thread is currently 3 pages away from Modern Community's record 190.

[XerxesPraelor]

The fact that we beat all the monsters did mean that the mentalist was pretty useless. I think using my role to just be an IC was a good idea, what does everyone else think?

[pingpongsam]

I thought the XP/Faust early quasi-IC delivery was helpful to those in the know but detrimental for those not in the know.

[XerxesPraelor]

Sorry, then. I should have made it clearer. Maybe just acting like I was a fruit vendor would be the right way to go.

[liopoil]

The fact that we beat all the monsters did mean that the mentalist was pretty useless. I think using my role to just be an IC was a good idea, what does everyone else think?

Well by N2 we knew we had to kill you, not sure if you should have stayed away from that to stay alive for longer. The one time we got the scum reward it was for the mentalist to give the wrong result, but unfortunately nobody had 20 dice.

[Archetype]

I feel really bad because I feel like Scum should have won this. So many Town players were scummy and I felt like liopoil were put into a good spot with our claims. I do think I could've played this much better, though. I kinda wish liopoil had made it to mylo instead of me. Oh well. We still made it pretty close even with Voltaire getting unlucky and being lynched! Awesome game, Jimmmmm! Loved the idea of the traveling merchants and of course the whole dice rolling. I do think that some of the vendors were a bit too spendy and there weren't really any scum benefiting powers. Some of the monsters were a little too easy to beat and the Council reward was a little OP (you could've done something like "each player names a player [Mafia have to name a Town player]. If players named each other, they get a permanent Daychat QT."). That number one was really cool though. Overall, I'm glad  I subbed in and thought it was very well modded after seeing all the actions you to keep track of. This is up there with Arrested Development for my favorite mafia game. I hope you have a Dice Mafia 3 in the works!

[Archetype]

I read in the speccy that someone (lio?) said that suggesting no lynch was scummy. Why is that scummy?

[liopoil]

I read in the speccy that someone (lio?) said that suggesting no lynch was scummy. Why is that scummy?

I think it was e, not me, but it is scummy because it is a bad idea for town

[Archetype]

I read in the speccy that someone (lio?) said that suggesting no lynch was scummy. Why is that scummy?

I think it was e, not me, but it is scummy because it is a bad idea for town

Not really. They get a reward, which could have possibly confirmed PPS as Town.

[Beyond Awesome]

Honestly, the only reason I lynched Arch at the end was mostly because of Lio casting suspicion of him on D4 when he did not need to do that. I think as scum, Lio over thought things. I guess as scum it is very likely to over think and not see from a town perspective. But, as town, I felt so many players were scummier than Arch. If Lio kept bussing PPS and not mentioning Arch at all, I probably would have gone with PPS at the end. It was a result of my reread that I saw Lio's interactions with Arch that led me to concluding that Arch was more likely scum over PPS.

[mail-mi]

Archetype, you failed me! 

This was so cool to follow after I had to out. I wish I could've stayed in.

[liopoil]

Honestly, the only reason I lynched Arch at the end was mostly because of Lio casting suspicion of him on D4 when he did not need to do that. I think as scum, Lio over thought things. I guess as scum it is very likely to over think and not see from a town perspective. But, as town, I felt so many players were scummier than Arch. If Lio kept bussing PPS and not mentioning Arch at all, I probably would have gone with PPS at the end. It was a result of my reread that I saw Lio's interactions with Arch that led me to concluding that Arch was more likely scum over PPS.

welp. Yeah, I thought that I needed to distance myself from arch. I wasn't sure how well my fake-bussing of pps was working, so in case it wasn't I needed to buss arch too.

[EFHW]

Honestly, the only reason I lynched Arch at the end was mostly because of Lio casting suspicion of him on D4 when he did not need to do that. I think as scum, Lio over thought things. I guess as scum it is very likely to over think and not see from a town perspective. But, as town, I felt so many players were scummier than Arch. If Lio kept bussing PPS and not mentioning Arch at all, I probably would have gone with PPS at the end. It was a result of my reread that I saw Lio's interactions with Arch that led me to concluding that Arch was more likely scum over PPS.

welp. Yeah, I thought that I needed to distance myself from arch. I wasn't sure how well my fake-bussing of pps was working, so in case it wasn't I needed to buss arch too.

aka overthinking!

[faust]

Wow, this game... glad we somehow managed to win, even though town played a quite bad game overall I think.

[Hydrad]

Wow, this game... glad we somehow managed to win, even though town played a quite bad game overall I think.

Ya from this game I almost felt bad winning. As I think scum played a better game then us but we just got some super lucky rolls to barely kill monsters and the masons power was a huge deal also.

[Witherweaver]

So by the way, Faust, sorry for the arguing.

[ashersky]

So by the way, Faust, sorry for the arguing.

It's alright.  Since you were scum this game, it's understandable.

[Witherweaver]

So by the way, Faust, sorry for the arguing.

It's alright.  Since you were scum this game, it's understandable.

Ha.  I'm sorry that your scum faction didn't win.

[faust]

So by the way, Faust, sorry for the arguing.

No worries, it gets heated like that sometimes. I was obviously quite wrong, so...

[Witherweaver]

So by the way, Faust, sorry for the arguing.

No worries, it gets heated like that sometimes. I was obviously quite wrong, so...

Well, I was actually kind of hoping that me being stubborn and a bit obnoxious would help indicate more that I was town, since I thought you might recognize that I haven't had the "I'm town, stop questioning it" attitude as scum before.  It didn't work out so well.

[liopoil]

I was obviously quite wrong, so...

tell that to ashersky!