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Author Topic: Coppersmith/ Black Market  (Read 7959 times)

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jotheonah

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Coppersmith/ Black Market
« on: December 05, 2011, 07:39:32 pm »
+1

I just lost a game on Isotropic because I played my 3 Coppers with my Black Market and then played my Coppersmith afterward, and my money stayed at $5 instead of jumping up to $8.

I actually have no idea which interpretation is correct. The text on the card "Copper produces an extra $1 this turn" is not super helpful, since that terminology isn't present on any other cards. Do the manuals address this? Anybody?
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AJD

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2011, 07:46:49 pm »
+1

The general rule is, cards do what they do when you play them when you play them; other effects don't reach back into history and change the effects of cards you've already played. So when you play a Copper, it gives you $1, right now. Playing Coppersmith only changes the effect of future Coppers played.

Consider a comparable case: you have three Pirate Ships. You play one for let's say $4, the second to trash someone's copper, and the third for $5. Then you have a total of $9, not $10; the second Pirate Ship doesn't reach back in time and give you an extra dollar for the first one you played also.
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jotheonah

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2011, 08:00:58 pm »
+1

That makes sense. Thanks.
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DsnowMan

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2011, 08:01:42 pm »
0

The entry for Coppersmith in Intrigue says

"This just changes how much money you get when playing copper."   (emphasis mine).

I agree that it probably can't look back in time.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2011, 10:26:36 am »
0

The trick is to think of Treasure as a special type of action. The only difference between treasure and actions is that you play them during your buy phase (or when you play Black Market) instead of during your action phase, and there is no limit to how many you can play. With that in mind, think of Copper as a card that says "+1 $". Like Herbalist without the +buy or the cleanup ability. From the point of view, it's clearer why you would have to play Coppersmith first.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 12:41:25 pm by GendoIkari »
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Reyk

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2011, 10:42:18 am »
0

The only difference between treasure and actions is that you play them during your buy phase instead of during your action phase

The trick here was that he didn't play the Coppers in the buy phase, but in the action phase instead - scnr ;-)
But you are right in general and the explanation is helpful.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2011, 12:41:47 pm »
0

The only difference between treasure and actions is that you play them during your buy phase instead of during your action phase

The trick here was that he didn't play the Coppers in the buy phase, but in the action phase instead - scnr ;-)
But you are right in general and the explanation is helpful.

True. I edited to mention Black Market.
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jotheonah

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2011, 01:02:14 am »
0

Definitely my mistake. I get in the habit of always playing my money to the Black Market (especially if I have a Tactician in my deck) because I figured there was no reason NOT to. Now I know there's at least one. ; )
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GendoIkari

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2011, 10:00:47 am »
+1

Definitely my mistake. I get in the habit of always playing my money to the Black Market (especially if I have a Tactician in my deck) because I figured there was no reason NOT to. Now I know there's at least one. ; )

I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario in which you couldn't have just played your Coppersmith before your Black Market in the first place... is there one? The only thing I can think of is if you buy Coppersmith from the Black Market, and then use drawing to get it into your hand.
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KMueller

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2011, 11:17:30 am »
0



I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario in which you couldn't have just played your Coppersmith before your Black Market in the first place... is there one? The only thing I can think of is if you buy Coppersmith from the Black Market, and then use drawing to get it into your hand.

Village--> BM ---> Lab ---> (Draw Coppersmith)--> Coppersmith.

Although, in this scenario, why wouldn't you play the lab before the BM?
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2011, 11:21:16 am »
0



I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario in which you couldn't have just played your Coppersmith before your Black Market in the first place... is there one? The only thing I can think of is if you buy Coppersmith from the Black Market, and then use drawing to get it into your hand.

Village--> BM ---> Lab ---> (Draw Coppersmith)--> Coppersmith.

Although, in this scenario, why wouldn't you play the lab before the BM?

I think that's the point. As they're both non-drawing terminal actions, why would you play them at any time other than at the end of your action phase, and in such a situation you will already know that you are going to play them both, in which case you will know to play the Coppersmith first.
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jonts26

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2011, 11:33:28 am »
+1

You have two black markets and a menagerie and a village. You play village --> BM --> menagerie to draw 3, one of which is a coppersmith.
Or same scenario with 1 BM and multiple coppers. You want to play the coppers so menagerie will trigger.
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jotheonah

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2011, 12:04:04 pm »
+1

It was part of a deck drawing kind of an engine. There may not have been any good reason for playing them in that order. 

I wish I could say it was the Menagerie thing, because that makes perfect sense. Although in that case it's a gamble that your drawing is going to be worth more than the extra money from the copper.
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Anon79

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2011, 10:03:05 pm »
0

I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario in which you couldn't have just played your Coppersmith before your Black Market in the first place... is there one?
Minion
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Bulb

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2011, 10:59:43 am »
0

I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario in which you couldn't have just played your Coppersmith before your Black Market in the first place... is there one?
Minion
Or Golem
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GendoIkari

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2011, 12:59:38 pm »
0

I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario in which you couldn't have just played your Coppersmith before your Black Market in the first place... is there one?
Minion
Or Golem
I'm missing something... I think I get the Minion thing... Village, Black Market, and Minion in hand. Play in that order, Minion draws you Coppersmith. But how does Golem lead to playing Black Market before Coppersmth?
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2011, 01:11:05 pm »
0

I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario in which you couldn't have just played your Coppersmith before your Black Market in the first place... is there one?
Minion
Or Golem
I'm missing something... I think I get the Minion thing... Village, Black Market, and Minion in hand. Play in that order, Minion draws you Coppersmith. But how does Golem lead to playing Black Market before Coppersmth?

Golem draws Lab and BM. Lab draws Coppersmith but you're forced to play the BM first.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2011, 01:15:59 pm »
0

I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario in which you couldn't have just played your Coppersmith before your Black Market in the first place... is there one?
Minion
Or Golem
I'm missing something... I think I get the Minion thing... Village, Black Market, and Minion in hand. Play in that order, Minion draws you Coppersmith. But how does Golem lead to playing Black Market before Coppersmth?

Golem draws Lab and BM. Lab draws Coppersmith but you're forced to play the BM first.
Right, thanks. :)
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Kuildeous

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2011, 02:37:40 pm »
0

It looks like you have a suitable answer. For anyone else who might be confused by this, I present Bank.

If you lay down Bank, Copper, and Bank in that order, then you have $1 + $1 + $3. The first Bank does not jump to $3 because of the treasure cards that follow.
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hobo386

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Re: Coppersmith/ Black Market
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2011, 05:54:10 pm »
0

I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario in which you couldn't have just played your Coppersmith before your Black Market in the first place... is there one?
Minion
Or Golem

Or Watchtower/Library/JoAT (ok, Jack isn't really realistic, but...).
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