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Author Topic: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists and Winner  (Read 32912 times)

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Polk5440

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2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists and Winner
« on: May 16, 2014, 09:16:02 am »
+21

[If you can't see the poll above this post, you must log in or register!]

These are the ten sets that were used for the final match of GokoDom III.  (The final match did not end in eight games, so two honorable mentions were used as well and are eligible for the final vote.)

Voting is one round of approval voting. You may vote for ("approve of") as many kingdoms as you like. So if there are a few kingdoms you really like, you can vote for all of them without fear of "wasting your vote." You may define favorite in any way you choose. You may change your vote at any time before the close of the poll.

Voting will close one week after the end of the third place match for GokoDom.

The winner will receive the Dominion expansion of his choice.

-----

CONGRATULATIONS to the 8 finalists (in alphabetical order): Awaclus, c4master, liopoil, MarkowKette, RobertJ, Rush_Clasic, soulnet, and Stef, and the two honorable mentions: markusin and WanderingWinder. Because the two honorable mentions were played as part of the GokoDom final (kingdoms #9 and #10), they are eligible to be voted upon, as well.

How the final kingdoms were selected (judging criteria) is here.

Here's an article on Kingdom Design in which I tried to outline some of the issues that came up when the judges were evaluating kingdoms.

Feel free to discuss the kingdoms in this thread. How would you play them? Which are your favorite? 

----------------------------------------------

Full Steam of the Gold Medal Match (kingdoms played in order):
Youtube playlist of entire match. Mic Qsenoch and Shecantsayno commentate last two games. AI and JOG do post-game commentary for some of the games.

Full Stream of the Bronze Medal Match (kingdoms played in alternate order):
Part I, Adam Horton commentates
Part II, for fun, Adam Horton commentates; MarkowKette fills in for michaeljb for kingdom #10

Kingdom #1: (No Colonies, No Shelters) Moat, Vagrant, Scheme, Island, Throne Room, Salvager, Jester, Rabble, Fairgrounds, Peddler




[video 1] [log] [video2] [log] [test game]

Kingdom #2: (No Colonies, No Shelters) Oasis, Shanty Town, Marauder, Young Witch, Mining Village, Silk Road, Market, Stables, Merchant Ship, Graverobber, Vagrant (note: Vagrant is bane)




[video 1] [log] [video2] [log] [test game]

Kingdom #3: (USE Colonies, No Shelters) Storeroom, Wishing Well, Coppersmith, Mining Village, Salvager, Throne Room, Mint, Tactician, Bank, Forge




[video 1] [log] [video2] [log] [test game1] [test game2]

Kingdom #4: (No Colonies, No Shelters) Horse Traders, Fool's Gold, Menagerie, Develop, Warehouse, Conspirator, Minion, Duke, Horn of Plenty, Candlestick Maker




[video 1] [log] [video2] [log] [test game]

Kingdom #5: (USE Colonies, No Shelters) Counting House, Mountebank, Inn, Festival, Throne Room, Plaza, Gardens, Trade Route, Storeroom, Scheme




[video 1] [log] [video2] [log] [test game]

Kingdom #6: (No Colonies, No Shelters) Poor House, Hamlet, Tunnel, Oracle, Doctor, Remake, Sea Hag, Inn, Merchant Guild, King's Court




[video 1] [log] [video2] [log] [test game]

Kingdom #7: (No Colonies, USE Shelters) Squire, Bridge, Apprentice, Haggler, Marauder, Urchin, Shanty Town, Library, Hoard, Harem




[video 1] [log] [video2] [log] [test game]

Kingdom #8: (No Colonies, USE Shelters) Stonemason, Tunnel, Storeroom, Watchtower, Rats, Bishop, Fortress, Catacombs, Minion, Hunting Grounds




[video 1] [log] [video2] [log] [test game]

Kingdom #9: (No Colonies, No Shelters) Fool's Gold, Native Village, Stonemason, Market Square, Wishing Well, Ironmonger, Procession, Catacombs, Witch, Adventurer




[video1] [log] [video2] [log] [test game]

Kingdom #10: (USE Colonies, No Shelters) Scavenger, Philosopher's Stone, Gardens, Squire, Worker's Village, Vault, Steward, Caravan, Mountebank, Adventurer




[video1] [log] [video2, AdamH v. MarkowKette] [log] [test game]

----------------------------------------------

[[[[LINK TO SPREADSHEET]]]]

The spreadsheet contains a list of all the entries, the candidates, the finalists, playtesting comments, card statistics, and expansion statistics.

------------


Logistics:

Ok. So, last night we had a little leak. The player we were most concerned with having his name associated with a kingdom is now associated with the kingdom he created.

Given this, and the fact that people can simply log search by kingdom to see play test logs on Goko to find out the creator, I think it would help all the other kingdoms out if we post the spreadsheet with the kingdom descriptions and play test comments. This spreadsheet associates the kingdoms with the people who submitted them and includes all 123 kingdoms, 54 playtested candidates, and honorable mentions. I will also add playtest logs later where I think the playtesters attempted to implement something different from the GokoDom games or highlights something in the submitter's description of a kingdom. 

Edit: added the last two kingdoms.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 07:09:38 pm by Polk5440 »
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2014, 09:42:07 am »
+5

Ok. So, last night we had a little leak. The player we were most concerned with having his name associated with a kingdom is now associated with the kingdom he created.

Reading this, I feel a little guilty, sorry and surprised at the same time.

I didn't realize you would still try to keep this a secret after the finals were played. That just sounds impossible. I mean - even before the finals it was already quite easy to find all the kingdoms you playtested (I at least found them a couple of days ago). That was just based on the usernames of the playtesters, rating system and time frame. Now that all the exact kingdoms are out it's even easier.

Nevertheless, it should have read your instructions more carefully and I'm sorry.

P.S. Maybe Andrew can implement a 'blacklist' system in his log search tool for usernames/games not to index, if we ever want to do a design contest again. That, or you should playtest IRL.

P.P.S. thanks for organizing the contest. Seeing them play my kingdom yesterday was fun.
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Polk5440

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2014, 09:47:16 am »
+2

No problem, Stef. It was an impossible ask, really. Last year we didn't even try. Since there were requests in other threads for anonymity I thought we'd give it a go.

Thinking about it more, it will be better to see the descriptions and stuff when voting. And the descriptions give away the identities a lot of the time anyway.
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ragingduckd

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2014, 09:57:17 am »
+9

Congratulations and thank you to everyone who designed kingdoms.  They were really a lot of fun to play!  I especially liked how most of them had several compelling options with dramatically different consequences.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2014, 02:36:53 pm »
+3

Quote
Ok. So, last night we had a little leak. The player we were most concerned with having his name associated with a kingdom is now associated with the kingdom he created.

I take all the blame for this. All Stef did was drop some vague hints that indicated his certainty as to how the kingdom ought to be played. That in itself is nothing surprising, as I'm sure he feels that way about a lot of kingdoms—I certainly do so myself. However, when I contrasted that with my own complete confusion there were only two possible explanations:

1. He's just that much better than me.

2. He designed the kingdom himself.

Excuse me for first wanting to eliminate #2 before being willing to consider #1 ;)

When I then asked him about it in public chat there was just very little he could do besides flat out lying. Had he ignored my question I might have gotten the hint, but I also might have assumed he missed it (the chat was quite hectic) and proceeded to ask again. Had he ignored that again it would have been just as clear as if he'd said "yes" in the first place.

Why did I ask about it at all? Well, I haven't been following this Kingdom Design thing too closely, so had no idea these things were supposed to be kept a secret still...

If it's any consolation: the fact that I'll end up voting for it is solely due to Andrew's brilliant performance. Had he not made what I considered a "gross opening blunder" and just proceeded to play, as Jog did, "the only sensible strategy", I would have dismissed the kingdom as plain silliness and attributed its presence among the finalists to an utter lack of creativity among the remaining contestants. Yes, Stef is so good that he outplays you even long after his elimination; I might have to consider #1 after all ;)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 02:39:08 pm by SheCantSayNo »
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Polk5440

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2014, 03:08:10 pm »
0

Quote
Ok. So, last night we had a little leak. The player we were most concerned with having his name associated with a kingdom is now associated with the kingdom he created.

I take all the blame for this.

Don't worry about it. ;)

It was a lot to expect, and in the past the kingdom creators were announced along with the kingdom, and we didn't really publicize very well our expectations about how long to keep them (semi-)anonymous.

The last thing I want to have happen is people feel bad about it and remove the joy they got from seeing these kingdoms played out, or from having their kingdom picked.

--

Any bets on how the kingdoms will play out for the third place match? :P
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liopoil

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2014, 05:11:35 pm »
+4

I submitted two kingdoms. I didn't playtest either of them and didn't put a whole lot of effort into them. I remember watching one of the games and thinking, "is that my kingdom? I think that's my kingdom", but I wasn't able to watch the whole stream and so now I am looking at another one of the kingdoms and thinking that one might be mine instead. Polk, could you PM me which kingdom is mine? :P
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2014, 07:16:57 pm »
+1

I would like (if it is not too annoying) that you either do not post the description we made about the kingdoms, give us an opportunity to edit them or edit them yourself (this last option would be useful to preserve anonymity, if that were still a desire).

EDIT: Clarification in case the request sounds strange: My own descriptions were kind of messy because they were written in a rush. If they are going to be read by a broader audience, I would like them cleaned up a little bit. BTW, sorry to the organizer for putting up with my poor written original descriptions.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 07:40:10 pm by soulnet »
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Polk5440

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2014, 07:23:25 pm »
0

Edits to OP: logs and video links for GokoDom Gold Medal Match games.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2014, 07:45:47 pm »
0

I would like (if it is not too annoying) that you either do not post the description we made about the kingdoms, give us an opportunity to edit them or edit them yourself (this last option would be useful to preserve anonymity, if that were still a desire).

EDIT: Clarification in case the request sounds strange: My own descriptions were kind of messy because they were written in a rush. If they are going to be read by a broader audience, I would like them cleaned up a little bit. BTW, sorry to the organizer for putting up with my poor written original descriptions.

yeah if those description will be posted i would like to edit mine aswell. I put a lot of effort in playtesting but very little in writing a good description :P
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2014, 08:00:47 pm »
0

I don't remember what my description was, but it probably wasn't very good since I totally wasn't expecting the strategy that AI and JOG went for.
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Polk5440

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2014, 08:25:18 pm »
+2

I would like (if it is not too annoying) that you either do not post the description we made about the kingdoms, give us an opportunity to edit them or edit them yourself (this last option would be useful to preserve anonymity, if that were still a desire).

The short answer is: no. (I confirmed this with greatexpectations)

The long answer: It's a pain and a lot of work to update the public spreadsheets. When we judged the entries, the descriptions mattered. They should be viewed as a "post" in time about what you thought when you submitted the kingdom. Those descriptions often impacted how we playtested, and playtest comments are often in response to the descriptions.

Any "edits", new insights, or new descriptions should be made in the discussion thread as part of the discussion on your kingdom.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2014, 08:27:21 pm »
0

In terms of which kingdom was the most fun to watch I would have to say either kingdom 8 or kingdom 5 were tops. However, that isn't the only criteria to judge a good kingdom off. As a lot of my enjoyment in watching was seeing different strategies compete. And just because other kingdoms saw the competitors have more similar strats doesn't make them any worse.

But 5 and 8 were really, really fun to watch.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2014, 08:45:57 pm »
+3

I'm pretty sure and looking foreward to see AdamH and Michaeljb play some different strategies on some of those kingdoms in their 3rd place match.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2014, 09:54:42 am »
0

How was the order of the kingdoms decided?
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2014, 10:26:43 am »
0

i'd guess random-ish
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2014, 11:07:40 am »
0

How was the order of the kingdoms decided?

It was part of the final selection process. They were ordered to try to make each kingdom and the match as exciting as possible. For example, three kingdoms used Throne Room, so we separated them.

I'll say more when I post how the judging/selection went. I'll post that and the poll after the conclusion of the match between AI and JOG.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2014, 11:13:40 am »
0

Also, it should be noted that kingdom #8 was designed to be played with No Colonies and to USE Shelters, but something got crossed, and it was played with Colonies and no Shelters instead.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2014, 11:17:25 am »
+1

I guess we'll see how it plays that way in the 3rd place match, should it make it to 8 games?
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2014, 05:45:17 pm »
+2

If the order of the kingdoms is not supposed to indicate any preference by the judges, maybe it would be good to change it for the 3rd place match. Like, reverse it. Kingdoms at the end tend to get more attention, but also have a risk of not even being used.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2014, 09:29:49 pm »
+3

If the order of the kingdoms is not supposed to indicate any preference by the judges, maybe it would be good to change it for the 3rd place match. Like, reverse it. Kingdoms at the end tend to get more attention, but also have a risk of not even being used.

Hmmm. I like that suggestion. If AI and JOG hadn't gotten through all 8, I was just going to start Adam and Michael at the break, so going in reverse for their match seems like a good idea.

Any objections?
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2014, 09:36:20 pm »
0

If the order of the kingdoms is not supposed to indicate any preference by the judges, maybe it would be good to change it for the 3rd place match. Like, reverse it. Kingdoms at the end tend to get more attention, but also have a risk of not even being used.

Hmmm. I like that suggestion. If AI and JOG hadn't gotten through all 8, I was just going to start Adam and Michael at the break, so going in reverse for their match seems like a good idea.

Any objections?
I think it would be a good idea.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2014, 09:38:25 pm »
0

agreed

EDIT: when do the poll and spreadsheet stuff go up? After the third place match?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 06:29:04 pm by liopoil »
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2014, 06:45:06 pm »
+1

agreed

EDIT: when do the poll and spreadsheet stuff go up? After the third place match?

I am working on it now, actually. Adam H and michealjb are on the honor system.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2014, 07:57:17 pm »
+1

Poll is added (see top of thread).

OP is edited to include links to an article on Kingdom Design, the spreadsheet with the playtest comments and card statistics, and a link to my description on how the judging went.

Oh, how many Scout kingdoms were there (out of 123 entries)? eight.   

The most popular card was Squire.              It appeared in 20          kingdoms.

Cards that were not used: Envoy, Navigator, Remodel, and Stash.     
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2014, 07:59:03 pm »
+1

interestingly, the card that appeared the most in the final kingdoms was storeroom, at 4 appearances   

Also, I encourage everyone to refrain from voting until after the 3rd place match
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2014, 08:24:49 pm »
0

Also, I encourage everyone to refrain from voting until after the 3rd place match

Remember you can change your vote at any time. So if the third place match changes your mind, feel free to change your vote!

I'll also be posting our test logs tonight or tomorrow. In a few cases we played the kingdoms quite differently.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2014, 08:28:19 pm »
0

Cards that were not used: Envoy, Navigator, Remodel, and Stash.     
Are you forgetting one or was the number that GE gave earlier wrong?

I got Envoy and Navigator correct, Stash isn't too surprising but Remodel is. Maybe the variants are just that much more interesting then.

EDIT: No, actually it seems that I didn't get Envoy correct. Weird, now I'm not sure if I accidentally typed Walled Village back then or misremember now.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 08:30:13 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2014, 08:29:36 pm »
+2

Pictures would help.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2014, 08:30:37 pm »
0

Cards that were not used: Envoy, Navigator, Remodel, and Stash.     
Are you forgetting one or was the number that GE gave earlier wrong?

I got Envoy and Navigator correct, Stash isn't too surprising but Remodel is. Maybe the variants are just that much more interesting then.

I think GE counted Spoils.

Regarding Remodel: I think everyone was enamored with Butcher this time around. Remodel wasn't hip enough.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2014, 08:31:53 pm »
+3

Pictures would help.
Here's a picture:



Did it help?
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2014, 08:32:20 pm »
0

Pictures would help.

Oh, right. Will add to OP.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2014, 08:35:35 pm »
0

I think GE counted Spoils.

yup, my bad there. i updated the spreadsheet accordingly.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2014, 08:37:51 pm »
+2

Polk has done a fantastic job of summing things up, but I figured I should throw in some comments for the spreadsheet.
  • Unfortunately, the public spreadsheet is not easily editable or sortable as is. There was data in the spreadsheet that we did not want shared as well as a lot of data and formulas extraneous for the average forum member. It would have been a bit of work to clean up the spreadsheet to be presentable so we will start off sharing this. If there is a strong desire for the full spreadsheet I can provide it, but it might take some time to get back to you. Beyond that, I will try my best to meet any requests for more detailed/additional information.
  • There are sheets dedicated to all entries (full detailed and simple versions), the candidates we playtested, and the kingdoms chosen for the finals. The sheets contain submitter comments and the Y/M/N votes or playtest comments from the reviewers. Columns to the far right of the sheet contain automated data based on the expansions required and types of cards/combos present.
  • The card frequency stats should be self explanatory but the other stats might be a little more confusing. The 'Total' column sums all of the appearances of that requirement, while 'Distinct' looks only at separate kingdoms featuring the requirment. EG a kingdom with 5 Seaside cards adds 5 to the 'Total' column but only 1 to the 'Distinct' column. The 'Distinct' figure is also listed as a percentage of all entries to give an idea of how often that subset occurred. Card types are typically based on definitions and inclusions on the Wiki. Combinations are just boolean comparisons of these card types to give a feel for how the kingdom might play out.
  • To get into the stats a little bit, the majority of submissions leaned towards strong engines or alt-VP and I think the numbers bear that out. 93% of kingdoms offered some form of +Action and 87% offered +Buy while 72% contained either VP chips or alt-VP cards.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 09:22:14 pm by greatexpectations »
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liopoil

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2014, 09:36:52 pm »
+6

So, I guess I'll make my pitch for why my kingdom is the best because I want Intrigue:

My kingdom was Kingdom number 8. log: http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140515/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1400216455245.txt, and kingdom: Stonemason,Tunnel,Storeroom,Watchtower,Rats,Bishop,Fortress,Catacombs,Minion,Hunting Grounds

I don't remember making it that well, but I'm not surprised that I did. Watchtower is probably my favorite card, rats is up there too, and the rest of the cards make the kingdom cool, and also make the best opening on 4/3 rats/watchtower. Plus, cool interactions. People commented about it being similar to the empty the supply kingdoms and such, which is certainly is. Anyway, here's what I said about my kingdom when I made it:

Quote
Bishop-Fortress will likely be the best strategy, but an early 3-pile is a big threat, and there are lots of tactics regarding that. Tunnel and Hunting Grounds provide ways to get some points to get ahead and end the game. This will be a very fast, tactical game. There are a lot of ways to approach this kingdom, though the general idea is pretty similar - a very thin, action heavy deck with bishop. There are more than 3 piles that have the potential to empty. There are other ideas with storeroom/tunnel/minion, but they will likely be too slow. Should be interesting.

I pretty much still agree with all of this. I didn't playtest this kingdom, by the way. Now that I've thought about it more and have watched a game, I have more to say. I'm surprised that both players ignored bishop, and that AI went minion. I feel like minion will be very situational, and you only ever want 1, maybe 2, but not 3. Minion was the card I added to the kingdom last. Minion worked out for AI because 1: he got fairly good shuffle luck, but more importantly 2: almost anything he does wins, because JOG didn't open rats! Rats is key here. It is a must open, except on 5/2. You need to thin ASAP, and you need rats for fuel for watchtower, bishop, and potentially stonemason. I expect that the optimal strategy is to open rats/watchtower, build up on lots of fortresses, get a bishop, a second watchtower, and hopefully in the process pick up a stonemason by overpaying for it. The game will be very very fast (the final lasted 10 turns, and it has the potential to be even faster I think!). The key will be striking a balance between getting points and endgame control. You have to make sure each turn that your opponent can't win on their next turn, but you also have to make sure that you don't get points too early. Theoretically, I think if both players play well, the game will actually avoid the three-pile for a while, because they will stop buying engine pieces and focus on bishoping. It could even reach a sort of stalemate state, which I think would be really sweet. In this kingdom, buy order is important (open rats!), but that's true in any kingdom. The choices during your action phase are especially key in this kingdom, because really, that's where most of the gaining happens.

But what about storeroom, tunnel, catacombs, minion, and hunting grounds? These are the situational cards! All of these cards have the potential to shine. Which ones you get depend on your shuffle luck and what your opponent does. That's what sets this kingdom apart from the rest. In all the other kingdoms, the most important part is picking your strategy, and from there all there is left to do is get the cards you need and build your deck. Here, depending on the cards you have drawn, your deck may be in a range of states,  and depending on that it just may be time to deviate from the 5 main cards and pick up one of these.

Running low on money near the end of the game, and also need points? stonemason a rats, pick up tunnel and storeroom, draw them, activate the tunnel, and draw the gold, all in one turn. Tunnel also fits the role as a consolation duchy near the end, and can has a slim chance to pile out. Storeroom can also act as your +buy, sifting through your rats, and for some money as well.

Have 8, two piles gone, a little behind on points, and can get two estates? buy stonemason, overpay by 6, get two hunting grounds, and trash them with watchtower for 6 estates. Hunting grounds can also be used effectively earlier in the game for draw and later stonemasoning into 3 duchies.

5/2 split? Open catacombs/stonemason, trash the catacombs later with stonemason for 3 $4 costs. Catacombs can also act as sifting and draw, while also being able to liquify into better cards later or for a three pile.

Oh, uh, minion. Minion acts as some sifting for you, can give you some money in a pinch if you need it, and attacks your opponents. The attack isn't negligible either - if they don't have a watchtower their new hand, it hurts, and every turn counts a lot. And it's not terminal, which is important if you lost the fortress split. Minion is the weakest card in this kingdom, I believe.

It's worth noting that this kingdom was intended for using shelters, and not colonies. The opposite was used in the match. There is no point to colonies (no way are you ever hitting 9+ AND for some reason wanting platinum or colony). Shelters add to the craziness. Overgrown estate gets you a card when you trash it with rats. hovel will probably not matter - you'll most likely trash it before you get a tunnel. Necropolis gives you another +action card, and sort of combos with watchtower. You probably want to get rid of it, but you could get use out of it before you do and if you don't get rid of it right away it isn't a big deal.

EDIT: I see shark_bait's and polk's sample game now. They went more heavily tunnel/storeroom, and indeed, tunnels did pile. Polk tended more towards the intended strategy, and so won. The effects of all the shelters were used at least once. Game was slower, 13 turns, so I think AI's strategy was better, though still improvable. More evidence that the whole kingdom is relevant.

All that shark_bait and polk said about this kingdom was:
Quote
This is a yes for sure, lots of awesome tactics. -- SB, agreed -- Polk

Well, I'm glad they liked it, I hope everyone else did too.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 09:52:18 pm by liopoil »
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Polk5440

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2014, 09:46:32 pm »
+2

Pictures would help.

Oh, right. Will add to OP.

Test games and pictures added to OP.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2014, 09:50:58 pm »
+1

Pictures would help.

Oh, right. Will add to OP.

Test games and pictures added to OP.
You have the test game for kingdom #6 twice there (in place of #7).
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2014, 10:05:58 pm »
0

You have the test game for kingdom #6 twice there (in place of #7).

Fixed. I had trouble navigating that kingdom, so I guess I was subconsciously trying to suppress that game.  ;)
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2014, 07:01:52 am »
+2

I'm following liopoils example to sum up my Kingdom a bit more closely than in the spreadsheet's comments. Especially since i submitted a slightly different version of this kingdom before the final one where i wrote the main comments to this kingdom and those are not  displayed here.

My Kingdom is #4:
Horse Traders,Fool's Gold,Menagerie,Develop,Warehouse,Conspirator,Minion,Duke,Horn of Plenty,Candlestick Maker

Quote
This board should be the replacement to the Kingdom i submitted earlier
(that was the same one with Farmland instead of Candlestickmaker)

After a lot of playtesting it turned out, that the Minion strategy was still a bit too weak without any nonterminal +buy. I added CM now because it is the only card that fits for that issue and doesnt benefit the other strategies too much here.

Also i have to add to my former comments, that this board is a little bit of a Rock-Paper-Scissors Board where each strategy has another strategy here to soft counter it. So it add's a bit mindgames to the gameplay in the regard, that if player A starts and goes for strategy 1 player B who goes second can chose the soft counter strategy and now player A has to decide if he wants to maybe adjust to another strategy that maybe counters player B's strategy even though he already started building a different strategy and would maybe be a turn behind where he would be if he started with that strategy.
But all strategys have a chance to even beat their counter strategy if played well.

I still agree with most of what i wrote there but the "change your strategy to adjust to your opponent" dynamics are extremely unlikely to come into play.

I had a few goals when i created this Kingdom:

It should feature a Slog-strategy, a BM-strategy, and two completely different engine strategies.
It should be possible to play all four strategies in a 4player game with none of them strictly superior or inferior to the others.
I wanted some Rock-Paper-Scissors dynamics with each (slog/BM) strat having an engine to soft counter it and each engine
to have slog or BM as a soft counter. But it should not be that one strategy completely crushes one of the other strategies so that the game is never already decided once the players chose their strategy.
Balancing was a big focus point for me so i playtested the Kingdom about 20 times until i had the best constellation of cards.
(And i wanted Menagerie in my Kingdom because i absulutely love it and Rats just didnt fit in at all which is the only card i love even more^^)

Strategies: Engine around Minion with lots of support (Minion probably only for draw and Conspirators, CM for the money)
                 Horse Traders Duke Slog with CM support.
                 HT/CM/Fools Gold Big Money
                 HoP Engine with lots of Warehouses and Menagerie
                 A mix of both engines with a single Hop as gainer CM, Warehouse, Menagerie and Conspirator.

The engine with Minions may seem too strong to be beaten and i would agree if playtesting didn't prove me wrong.
Horse Traders is such a great defence against Minions that both HT strategies are faster against a Minion stack than they would be in a solitaire game.
The HoP engine that goes for one megaturn is the one with the highest skill requirement here and not easy to see
as Menagerie is the only way to increase your handsize and you can only draw 3 HoP with it . But some people forget that Warehouse actually draws cards so you can draw all the HoP that you discarded to warehouse later with warehouse if you have enough other uniques to discard in the end. So Cards like a single FG or a Duchy etc actually benefit your engine later in the game. You still have to get rid of the estates and most of your copper for that to work so Develop is key here and Develop is very slow.
FG/HT has a very high variance on how fast it gets Provinces so it has a good chance to sneak enough Provices before the HoP Megaturn. An engine can contest the Warehouses and Menageries to build a 3pile threat.

I think the balancing is best for 2 and 3 players as with 4 players it's very likely that 2 or 3 engine players will fight for similar engine pieces and thus slow each other down.

RPS dynamics in simple:
Minion usually beats FG
HT/Duke usually beasts Minion
HoP beats HT/Duke
FG has a high chance of beating HoP

The engines against each other and the non engines against each other are extremely even.

Quote
Engine was able to slightly beat a HT/FG attempt in our game but it was quite close. tighter play or better draws could decide it, as could pairing HT with the engine players minion more often. going hard for HT/Duke might prove to be a stronger option than FG or engine. the kingdom seems to be pretty well balanced. -GE

Which engine did you try?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 07:11:39 am by MarkowKette »
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2014, 07:35:13 am »
+8

I'll write a bit more about the Counting House kingdom (#5).

First of all, thanks a lot to Andrew for figuring it out, at least partially. It made a great watching experience and I secretly enjoyed seeing so many viewers go down with the Mountebank ship. The real moral victory would be to see Counting House end up anything but last in Qvists $5 card rankings next year, or Mountebank anything but first, just because people remember this game.

Andrew didn't fully figure it out though, and neither did I at the time. His plan eventually was to play multiple counting houses, prevent a reshuffle at all cost, and then end with a combination of scheming and a nicely timed Inn to get going again next turn. You can take the engine to the next level by actually triggering shuffle at the right moment.

By the time the final was played I thought this requires 5 scheme plays, but actually it's 4. Trick is: leave one random junk card on top of your deck (say an estate) and then use 4xScheme to add Festival, Counting House, Plaza, Storeroom. Start playing festival, Counting House to get all the coppers, plaza (triggers shuffle), now storeroom to replace all the coppers for the nice action cards in your deck. You need to play at least 4 schemes (possibly helped by throne room) and put a junk card back on top. Inn's main purpose is to start it up in the first place.

As soon as you get to that stage you can add as many coppers as your buys allow you to.
This way you don't have to keep buying Inns, and you can use every card in your deck every turn.
Here's a recent log for this set, but I still misplay that one. (2nd plaza is unnecessary; only during that game I figure out 4 schemes is what you need, not 5; festival before counting house is much better).
Also, I'm running out of opponents who think Mountebank is a good card in this set, which makes playtesting and comparing to Andrews game strange (curses are bad but free coppers are good)
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2014, 07:46:12 am »
+1

Quote
Engine was able to slightly beat a HT/FG attempt in our game but it was quite close. tighter play or better draws could decide it, as could pairing HT with the engine players minion more often. going hard for HT/Duke might prove to be a stronger option than FG or engine. the kingdom seems to be pretty well balanced. -GE

Which engine did you try?

See the test game in OP. I went for the "mix" option.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2014, 07:50:37 am »
0

I'll write a bit more about the Counting House kingdom (#5)....

How do you think the game will play out if both players ignore Mountebank? Should they?
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2014, 08:13:35 am »
+1

I'll write a bit more about the Counting House kingdom (#5)....

How do you think the game will play out if both players ignore Mountebank? Should they?

Yes I think both players should ignore Mountebank. Getting it for free would be good, but the opportunity cost of not getting a Festival / Counting House is too high.
After that, it's still a tricky engine because of all the necessary shuffle control and balancing the power of your deck (#buys to increase coppers, #coppers to profit from couting house, #of counting house+storeroom to profit from each copper).
Also the endgame is strange because this deck does not get weaker at all if you add green (if 10 curses don't slow you down, neither does green). Except off course that you miss the opportunity of buying a copper :)
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2014, 03:20:08 pm »
+2

I'm really happy my kingdom (game 9) was an honourable mention. It was the first one I submitted and possibly my favourite among my submisions. It's really cool how it's eligible for the vote since it got played, albeit in a way I wasn't expecting. Given this, I might as well comment on it.

Here's what I had to say about it:
Quote
I chose this Kingdom in the hopes of pitting a possible engine deck against a Fool's gold deck where both have good support. There are also a few neat on-trash effects to take advantage of, and a few synergies to consider.

Stonemason can be used to quickly collect sifters, drawers, light trashers, and a source of +buy; These are appealing both to the mega-draw engine and the Fool's Gold heavy deck, but one will ultimately need treasure in order to buy anything. Deck thinning is limited, but Native Village is not necessarily a shot in the dark here. Will Adventurer finally be put to good use?

I don't have all that much to add to this description. There is an interesting choice as to whether to add Gold or FG late game for buying power. With enough deck-thinning from Stonemason and Native Village, it's possible to build up to a Gold-centric mega-turn from Market Square discard. You can even play Procession on Adventurer to draw newly gained Gold should it ever come to that.

I think any strategy on the board benefits from Ironmongers and the Cheap components that can be picked up with Stonemaon. My thinking with the Catacombs was that its sifting makes FG a bit more enticing. The sifting is not to be underestimated. SCSN and Mic were discussing replacing Witch with Cultist in the Commentary, but in my mind the Cultist on-trash ability and multi-play ability would be overkill and make the game too swingy. Personally, I find the simplicity of the Witch adds a certain charm to the board.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2014, 05:16:19 am »
+2

Kingdom number 2

Oasis,Shanty Town,Marauder,Young Witch,Mining Village,Silk Road,Market,Stables,Merchant Ship,Graverobber,Vagrant

This is what I said before:
"I tried to design a kingdom where a slog might compete with an engine.
Main questions are: Young Witch or Marauder? What to do after the Ruins/Curses are gone?
I also tried to avoid "pick me"-cards, ending up with a kingdom of rather weak ones."

reasons:
- I'm not good enough to balance two competetive engines.
- I counted on the other submitters to do a lot of crazy engine or combo stuff, so I wanted to do something else.
- It shouldn't be too dull so that you at least have to make a few tough decisions.

specific picks:
- Marauder/Young Witch: I feel these two cards are quite equal in strength, but can be used differently. I clearly wanted to force a decision between them.
- Oasis: It's good when you have bad cards to discard to it. There's also a synergy with vagrant. Of course, it antisynergizes with YW as I felt YW was a little bit stronger than Marauder.
- Vagrant as bane: Vagrant is not a bad card. It helps you draw a lot of junk, so that you can play your good cards more often. As a bane, well, it's nice to have one or two, but there is also opportunity cost. Most times you could as well buy silver or even a silk road.
- Market: I wanted a +buy, but it shouldn't be as cheap as $3 or $4. It should avoid early 3-piling and it should not be easy to pick up Vagrants "along the way".
- Shanty Town/Mining Village: Two villages to encourage "over-terminalizing". While Shanty Town is rather bad against Marauder, it can shine against cursers. ST was the last card to add, because I didn't feel like I could find another card that wouldn't change a lot. Mining Village can later on be used as a one-shot. I didn't expect the run for silk roads to start that early.
- Silk Road: If you're going to slog, that is the best card to do so. It's cheap, but can be worth more than Duchies.
- Stables: If you want to go a little bit more enginy, this is your draw. It's non-terminal and you will have your Coppers around to feed it once or twice a turn.
- Merchant Ship: That's rather a BM card. Since it's a duration card, you can again overterminalize a bit. It can help both, the slog and the engine/BM.
- Graverobber: Trashing is fine, and so far, most cards have favored Marauder over YW. This one should be the other way: It can trash ruins to gain Villages, or it can re-gain Villages from the trash, if you traded them before. There is a synergy with Mining Village. Yet, it's slow, and it might be a trap.

I do not have a concrete plan, how to play this kingdom. I'm not sure if a slog is good enough to go for, if the other player isn't doing the same because you can hardly empty piles before the other one gets to Province turns. I'm still not sure about the opening. 5/2 would be OK, maybe picking up Stables/Vagrant for maximum sifting, but maybe that's just wrong, too. On a 4/3 I really don't know whether YW or Marauder is preferable here. I would really like to see, if there is an engine to be played on this board. Since AI and JOG didn't try this, I suppose, it's not good enough.

edit: Appearantly the engine thing is not worth it, so it's pretty much a sloggy kingdom. Ruins are likely to run out, and even if curses don't, a 3-pile is possible before this really bad engine can kick off.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 12:06:55 pm by c4master »
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2014, 10:59:50 am »
+6

At the risk of cluttering the thread...



Edit: At pretty much anyone's request I'll be happy to move this elsewhere.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 11:01:39 am by theblankman »
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2014, 01:46:08 pm »
+1

There isn't much to be written about my kingdom, but I'll write something anyway.

(No Colonies, USE Shelters) Squire, Bridge, Apprentice, Haggler, Marauder, Urchin, Shanty Town, Library, Hoard, Harem

I basically just took the two cards that I have the highest win rates given avail on CouncilRoom (Bridge and Pearl Diver) and built a kingdom around them that I wouldn't know how to play. Then there was no room for Pearl Diver so it isn't there. Then I submitted the kingdom with zero playtesting and was surprised to see that it was in the finals and that both players went for a strategy that I did not anticipate.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 01:47:20 pm by Awaclus »
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2014, 03:02:29 pm »
+3

My kingdom is nr1: Moat, Vagrant, Scheme, Island, Throne Room, Salvager, Jester, Rabble, Fairgrounds, Peddler

I wanted an engine that clearly works but that makes you work to make it work. I decided for no good trashing, no good sifting and no strong attacks, but strong payload (Salvager on Peddler), stability (Island) and good alt-VP (Fairgrounds). Since Salvager is the only +Buy and TR being the only +Actions, you need to get your fair share of TRs, but when to get them to avoid having dud hands? I believe the optimal play has room for all cards, but it is highly dependent on draws. $2 extra, Moat or Vagrant? Depends on the status. When to get Jester over Rabble? Scheme is great for TR-based engines, but, when to get it over TR or Salvager? In summary: It is a reactive board and a clear engine board, but still hard to pull-off.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2014, 06:05:59 pm »
+3


I took a rather unsophisticated approach to this so I don't have a huge amount to say. Still, since many of the other finalists have said a bit about their entries here is my secret history of Kingdom #3.

Kingdom #3: (USE Colonies, No Shelters) Storeroom, Wishing Well, Coppersmith, Mining Village, Salvager, Throne Room, Mint, Tactician, Bank, Forge

The basic approach in designing this kingdom was to start from Tactician and to throw in a load of stuff that goes well (but not overpoweringly well) with it until it got to the point where I had no clue what I would do.

So, with a single Tactician there's Bank and Coppersmith (ideally Throned). Going for double Tactician, virtual money is a bit weak but is there in Salvager (Mint fueled) and Storeroom. Wishing Well can fit nicely with several of these approaches, particularly since there's no real draw. Finally, Forge could find a use in various ways in both possibilities. Even having decided on the basic strategy it's not obvious (to me at least) how to get there quickly or what the best opening is.

I didn't give it any playtesting and I didn't really have a good idea of what the best approach was although my hope was that some kind of double Tactician thing with money coming from Minting then Salvaging Platinums was the way to go. In the two matches all four players took slightly different lines and both single and double Tactician strategies were used. It seemed that the single Tactician and money approach worked better but I'd love to see someone prove that wrong and show us how to make double Tactician/Mint/Salvager more competetive.

Congratulations to all four players involved for giving us two great matches. It was fun to see you playing my kingdom. Huge thanks also to all involved with running the tournament and the Kingdom design challenge.
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2014, 01:16:36 pm »
+1

Unfortunately, I can't access the videos from the links on the OP. Anyone else having trouble with it?
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Polk5440

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2014, 01:29:57 pm »
0

Unfortunately, I can't access the videos from the links on the OP. Anyone else having trouble with it?

The links for Adam's match still work. Not sure why AI vs. JOG match doesn't work. Maybe twitch deleted the videos? I'll see if AI put the videos on youtube and change the links today if I can.
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ragingduckd

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2014, 01:35:42 pm »
+1

Unfortunately, I can't access the videos from the links on the OP. Anyone else having trouble with it?

The links for Adam's match still work. Not sure why AI vs. JOG match doesn't work. Maybe twitch deleted the videos? I'll see if AI put the videos on youtube and change the links today if I can.

I don't know why the videos disappeared from twitch, but here are the youtube versions:
GokoDom III Finals Playlist - AI vs JOG

Games 1, 2, and 5 have some post-game commentary that JOG and I did over Skype.  Games 9 and 10 have the live commentary by SCSN and Mic Qsenoch.  Games 1-8 include the chat from the twitch channel watchers, but it's a bit out of sync for games 7 and 8.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 01:38:58 pm by ragingduckd »
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Awaclus

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2014, 01:41:32 pm »
0

I don't know why the videos disappeared from twitch
Maybe it has something to do with this?

I found out that I could just save it myself by selecting "save forever" under the video. Apparently videos that you just archive will get deleted after a week or so unless you deliberately save them.
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Joseph2302

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2014, 01:42:57 pm »
0

Unfortunately, I can't access the videos from the links on the OP. Anyone else having trouble with it?

The links for Adam's match still work. Not sure why AI vs. JOG match doesn't work. Maybe twitch deleted the videos? I'll see if AI put the videos on youtube and change the links today if I can.

I don't know why the videos disappeared from twitch, but here are the youtube versions:
GokoDom III Finals Playlist - AI vs JOG


Videos on Twitch seem to get automatically deleted after about a week, unless you explicitly choose to save them forever (it's an option on the page where you can edit the video).
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Polk5440

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2014, 01:45:05 pm »
0

Unfortunately, I can't access the videos from the links on the OP. Anyone else having trouble with it?

The links for Adam's match still work. Not sure why AI vs. JOG match doesn't work. Maybe twitch deleted the videos? I'll see if AI put the videos on youtube and change the links today if I can.

I don't know why the videos disappeared from twitch, but here are the youtube versions:
GokoDom III Finals Playlist - AI vs JOG

Games 1, 2, and 5 have some post-game commentary that JOG and I did over Skype.  Games 9 and 10 have the live commentary by SCSN and Mic Qsenoch.  Games 1-8 include the chat from the twitch channel watchers, but it's a bit out of sync for games 7 and 8.

On the Youtube playlist, it looks like game 2 is private.
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ragingduckd

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2014, 01:49:30 pm »
+1

Unfortunately, I can't access the videos from the links on the OP. Anyone else having trouble with it?

The links for Adam's match still work. Not sure why AI vs. JOG match doesn't work. Maybe twitch deleted the videos? I'll see if AI put the videos on youtube and change the links today if I can.

I don't know why the videos disappeared from twitch, but here are the youtube versions:
GokoDom III Finals Playlist - AI vs JOG

Games 1, 2, and 5 have some post-game commentary that JOG and I did over Skype.  Games 9 and 10 have the live commentary by SCSN and Mic Qsenoch.  Games 1-8 include the chat from the twitch channel watchers, but it's a bit out of sync for games 7 and 8.

On the Youtube playlist, it looks like game 2 is private.

Fixed.
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Polk5440

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #56 on: May 25, 2014, 01:53:05 pm »
+2

Video links in OP updated. Let me know if there are any more problems.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 01:57:12 pm by Polk5440 »
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Warrior

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #57 on: May 25, 2014, 04:01:12 pm »
0

Thanks all!
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2014, 09:52:58 am »
0

Unfortunately, I can't access the videos from the links on the OP. Anyone else having trouble with it?

The links for Adam's match still work. Not sure why AI vs. JOG match doesn't work. Maybe twitch deleted the videos? I'll see if AI put the videos on youtube and change the links today if I can.

I don't know why the videos disappeared from twitch, but here are the youtube versions:
GokoDom III Finals Playlist - AI vs JOG

Games 1, 2, and 5 have some post-game commentary that JOG and I did over Skype.  Games 9 and 10 have the live commentary by SCSN and Mic Qsenoch.  Games 1-8 include the chat from the twitch channel watchers, but it's a bit out of sync for games 7 and 8.

That's great. Thank you :)
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Polk5440

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2014, 07:34:05 am »
0

OP edited to include the for fun games that were played by AdamH, michaeljb, and MarkowKette to finish out the kingdoms that Adam and Michael did not get to during their third place match.

If you haven't voted yet, note that voting closes May 29th (tomorrow!).
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liopoil

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2014, 07:37:27 am »
0

why'd you reveal the votes early?

...looks like Stef will almost certainly win. Congrats stef!
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Polk5440

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2014, 07:42:08 am »
0

why'd you reveal the votes early?

...looks like Stef will almost certainly win. Congrats stef!

I certainly didn't mean to. I was trying to extend the deadline. For some reason when I hit edit poll, the option to reveal was greyed out and the option to show votes was checked. When I hit save, it revealed the votes. I can't undo it, either. Sorry about that.
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soulnet

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2014, 08:31:18 am »
+3

Seeing the votes, it seems to me that mostly they went to "tactical" boards as opposed to "divergent strategies" boards.

Maybe tactical boards are much more impressive to watch on video? They certainly were for me, to some extent, but I had considered my vote previous to watching the videos. Boards with more than two strategies, or with too much possibilities for a couple of games, will never get a fair display on a couple of recorded games while the intricacies of tactics stand out.

Just some afterthought. Please do not take this as a complaint.

As a counterpoint, having videos and commented videos and all kinds of input from the judges gave an exciting context to the competition. Thank you for all the hard work!

EDIT: I want to expand, because congratulations are not deep enough. It seems to me that the selection process was really well done, as reflected by all the material the judge's produced. The result had a wide range of boards.

I think the point at the beginning of my post was that it would have been nice to see the same spread in "types" of boards that we got from the selection in the voting results.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 08:36:33 am by soulnet »
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ragingduckd

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2014, 03:18:39 pm »
+1

Seeing the votes, it seems to me that mostly they went to "tactical" boards as opposed to "divergent strategies" boards.

...

I think the point at the beginning of my post was that it would have been nice to see the same spread in "types" of boards that we got from the selection in the voting results.

I'll echo this.  I really enjoyed playing all of the boards, but the ones I found most interesting were the ones with several viable-looking strategies.  They were the most educational for me too, as I managed to choose the wrong strategy in quite a few of them!
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Awaclus

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2014, 03:31:18 pm »
+2

I'm surprised that kingdom #9 doesn't have more votes. Clearly the most interesting board to me, it's difficult to play both tactically and strategically.
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liopoil

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2014, 03:32:26 pm »
+1

I think many of the kingdoms that got votes have multiple good strategies, especially kingdom 4.

What I was thinking about was replayability. Having multiple viable strategies provides replayability. Having tactics provides replayability. In Dominion, we don't generally play kingdoms multiple times too often, but seeing as this is a Kingdom Design contest it's a bit different. It's sort of like game design, with the template for the game provided, just choosing the details of the game (what cards are used).
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soulnet

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #66 on: May 28, 2014, 03:50:20 pm »
0

I think many of the kingdoms that got votes have multiple good strategies, especially kingdom 4.

All kingdoms got votes :).

My point was mostly about kingdoms #5 and #8 (1st and 3rd place resp. at the time of this post, 1st and 2nd at the time of my original post) have some parts more or less clear (with several tactical considerations). For instance, it is clear you want CH and WT, respectively. I am not saying they are easier than the others or anything, just that the strategy is a bit more clear and the tactics are the main focus. Compare to, for instance, kingdom #9, which, for me at least, is a complete enigma from the go.

Compare with #9, for instance.
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liopoil

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #67 on: May 28, 2014, 04:14:39 pm »
+3

I think many of the kingdoms that got votes have multiple good strategies, especially kingdom 4.

All kingdoms got votes :).

My point was mostly about kingdoms #5 and #8 (1st and 3rd place resp. at the time of this post, 1st and 2nd at the time of my original post) have some parts more or less clear (with several tactical considerations). For instance, it is clear you want CH and WT, respectively. I am not saying they are easier than the others or anything, just that the strategy is a bit more clear and the tactics are the main focus. Compare to, for instance, kingdom #9, which, for me at least, is a complete enigma from the go.

Compare with #9, for instance.
Yeah, sorry, as you could tell I meant Kingdoms which got more votes that others.

Kingdom 5 had divergent strategies, in that JOG went for mountebank. But in a game that is played correctly it will be an exact mirror. Kingdom 8 the only divergent strategy is more like tactics, or route to build. e.g., opening with rats, and minion vs. catacombs, whether to pick up tunnel or not, etc. So yes, those are more tactical kingdoms. (By the way, it's possible to end the game on turn 5 in kingdom 8 in a solitaire game with perfect shuffle luck.)

What's the enigma with kingdom 9? Is is not just an engine with essentially ALL the cards? That one also strikes me as a tactical kingdom. There are definitely lots of choices with buy order and witch and stuff of course, but I count that as tactics.

Anyway, I think that Kingdom 4 has the most and the best balanced divergent strategies, so it makes sense it got all of those votes. But in general I agree, having multiple viable strategies is a plus for a kingdom that should have been valued more highly.
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markusin

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #68 on: May 28, 2014, 04:34:13 pm »
0

I'm surprised that kingdom #9 doesn't have more votes. Clearly the most interesting board to me, it's difficult to play both tactically and strategically.
Eh, only 3 kingdoms got more votes than it. Not bad for an honourable mention. Also take into account the anticlimactic end to that kingdom's game in the finals.

Edit: Yeah as liopoli said kingdom #9 had all the parts for an engine, but the question is how much can you supercharge your deck with engine parts and procession plays without it disintegrating. The Witch can actually serve to stabilize things a bit. I'm surprised it's being considered as the "WTF Trippy" kingdom of the bunch.

I personally voted for Kingdom #4. There seems to be multiple balanced strategies on that board that look rather fun to play.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 04:43:54 pm by markusin »
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MarkowKette

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #69 on: May 28, 2014, 05:02:18 pm »
0

i really like kingdom 8 i played it 3 times and it never played out the same way. If you build the 3pile threat the right way you can force somone who wants go for bishops to pick up green cards around turn 10-11 aswell so he can never get to a golden deck. The only thing i dont see a good way around is Watchtower/Rats which provides huge benefit in any way.
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liopoil

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #70 on: May 28, 2014, 05:10:03 pm »
0

i really like kingdom 8 i played it 3 times and it never played out the same way. If you build the 3pile threat the right way you can force somone who wants go for bishops to pick up green cards around turn 10-11 aswell so he can never get to a golden deck. The only thing i dont see a good way around is Watchtower/Rats which provides huge benefit in any way.
I've only played my kingdom once, against SCSN. I went for storeroom and tunnel at one point, whereas he went for minion. (after we both went watchtower/rats/fortress of course). I personally don't like minion most of the time, but it depends on your shuffle luck. He won, but I also think he had a little bit better luck and I made some mistakes too, so I'm still not convinced minion is better, although it might be. I also don't think bishop is necessary early, not until turn 7-9 or something like that. But you do need points for sure, because piles will run FAST. What do you think of minion vs. storeroom/tunnel?

I'd be happy to play it again with anyone who has cards (I don't).
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Polk5440

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists and Winner
« Reply #71 on: May 29, 2014, 07:14:38 pm »
+11

Congratulations to Stef, the designer of kingdom #5, and the winner of the 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge!

This is a well-deserved win against quality finalists who approached the design challenge in different ways.

Stef put together a great kingdom that has something for every level of Dominion player. While the kingdom first appears to be a Mountebank-Gardens game, there is a crazy Counting House-Storeroom based engine for the experts to find. You have to turn engine building rules on their head: Coppers are good. The goal is to draw your discard pile. Trigger the reshuffle so there is a bunch of junk in my deck? Yes, please! And what a spectacle to pull off.

Even though the crazy engine seems to be a dominant strategy among the very best players, it is really difficult to find and execute correctly. That gives the kingdom added replayability.

The kingdom has a lot of tactical subpoints, and in addition, the kingdom also scales well; it would still be entertaining to play with three or four players. A very intersting, fun kingdom!

----------

All in all, this turned out to be a great contest with lots of strong entries. Even though we had half as many entries as last year, the entries were of high quality.

Thanks to everyone who participated!
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 07:28:31 pm by Polk5440 »
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MarkowKette

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists and Winner
« Reply #72 on: May 29, 2014, 07:29:36 pm »
+6

Congratulations Stef!

And a thousand thanks to to Polk, greatexpectations, Mic, Shark_bait and everyone else who
worked hard to make this contest possible.
Thanks for submitting wonderful kingdoms, judging and playtesting
and organization of the Kindoms for the finals.
Thanks to Adam, Andrew, Michael and JOG, Mic and SCSN for playing cool games on the finalists and commenting
and streaming!

I'm a bit sad that only 39 people voted when there are more then 100 members active in the forum every day.

I really enjoyed this contest and hope we will see another one next year maybe.



« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 09:00:18 pm by MarkowKette »
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SCSN

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists (Final Voting is Open)
« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2014, 04:23:46 am »
0

i really like kingdom 8 i played it 3 times and it never played out the same way. If you build the 3pile threat the right way you can force somone who wants go for bishops to pick up green cards around turn 10-11 aswell so he can never get to a golden deck. The only thing i dont see a good way around is Watchtower/Rats which provides huge benefit in any way.
I've only played my kingdom once, against SCSN. I went for storeroom and tunnel at one point, whereas he went for minion. (after we both went watchtower/rats/fortress of course). I personally don't like minion most of the time, but it depends on your shuffle luck. He won, but I also think he had a little bit better luck and I made some mistakes too, so I'm still not convinced minion is better, although it might be. I also don't think bishop is necessary early, not until turn 7-9 or something like that. But you do need points for sure, because piles will run FAST. What do you think of minion vs. storeroom/tunnel?

I'd be happy to play it again with anyone who has cards (I don't).

I don't think Minion is in any way vital to what I did. It just makes the deck more reliable. What is key though is Bishop-Fortress (or Bishopping Rats if you have too much of them), and I think ignoring Bishop will just always lose against a player who doesn't. Storeroom-Tunnel is just terrible, both here and on all but the weakest of boards.
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c4master

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists and Winner
« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2014, 05:14:44 am »
0

Congratulations, Stef.

It was really fun to watch the games on your kingdom. :)
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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists and Winner
« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2014, 12:56:47 am »
0

Oddly enough, if I had designed more than one kingdom for this contest, it probably would have revolved around Stash.
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Joseph2302

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists and Winner
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2014, 05:49:24 am »
0

I'm a bit sad that only 39 people voted when there are more then 100 members active in the forum every day.


There were also 50+ people watching the final (first 8 games) on AI's stream, so would have expected more to vote.

But thanks for all the fun, everyone involved- most of these kingdoms were epic, and really fun to watch. :)
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Polk5440

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Re: 2014 Kingdom Design Challenge Finalists and Winner
« Reply #77 on: June 17, 2014, 08:16:07 am »
0

Attempted to edit the Wiki. Let me know if this didn't work.
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