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[brokoli]

Fishing Village, very useful, very cute, but not overpowered.

I would say it is, not the same way as rebuild because the player with the most fishing villages doesn't win necessarily. But overpowered because almost every game you want to get at least one… so, not really a problem, but I don't agree saying it's not overpowered.

[LastFootnote]

My answer for today will be Moneylender. "Bribe new players into doing powerful things so they can see what makes them powerful" is a really neat design trick. Really, how many people get at first glance that the benefit of the card is that you trash the Copper? Most players grab it because it says +$3 on it, and then they worry about what's going to happen when they run out of Coppers to trash. Only after actually playing with it for a while does the true benefit become apparent.

I would say Moneylender could easily be more elegant by saying "Treasure" rather than "Copper".

[silverspawn]

Fishing Village, very useful, very cute, but not overpowered.

I would say it is, not the same way as rebuild because the player with the most fishing villages doesn't win necessarily. But overpowered because almost every game you want to get at least one… so, not really a problem, but I don't agree saying it's not overpowered.

yes, fw is most definitely op. in games using them, you are often never out of actions, and all you have to do is buy slightly worse versions of silver. +3 actions, +2$ on a $3 card is insane. i don't know if there is another card which is so clearly underpriced. it could honestly cost 5$ and would be alright

[Awaclus]

Yet it still isn't even the most powerful card at its cost, if Qvist's rankings are to be believed.

[silverspawn]

Yet it still isn't even the most powerful card at its cost, if Qvist's rankings are to be believed.

well, i have it on #1. but being the strongest and being most noticably underpriced is not the same thing. if workers village costed 3$, it would be the most obviously underpriced card, because it's stricktly better than village, but it wouldn't be one of the best $3's anyway. fishing village is just really close to festival, so it's easy to see that it's unerpriced at 3$.

[Drab Emordnilap]

My answer for today will be Moneylender. "Bribe new players into doing powerful things so they can see what makes them powerful" is a really neat design trick. Really, how many people get at first glance that the benefit of the card is that you trash the Copper? Most players grab it because it says +$3 on it, and then they worry about what's going to happen when they run out of Coppers to trash. Only after actually playing with it for a while does the true benefit become apparent.

I would say Moneylender could easily be more elegant by saying "Treasure" rather than "Copper".

More elegant, sure, but elegance is not the entirety of design. If it didn't call out Copper by name, it wouldn't be as strong of a hint that Copper's actually a bad card.

[terminalCopper]

I don't think that fishing village is overpowered. Does anyone have access to the old stats on councilroom? As far as I can remember, the win rate with or without it was almost the same, at least the gap was way smaller than e.g. with swindler.

+3 actions, +2$ on a $3 card is insane.

No, it's not. It would be insane if it was "+3actions, +2$", but being a duration card is a big downside because of the huge risk to miss a shuffle - I guess you know why Lab costs so much more than Caravan and why Council Room gets a nerf but Wharf doesn't ...
Moreover, Fishing Village is often used in the context of a "draw your deck"-Engine, which raises the risk to miss a shuffle to almost 100%.

A more realistic way to think of fishing village is "Squire for actions + bazaar" when it's played and "neither nor" when it missed the shuffle. Its true strength lies somewhere in between these, which is a strong 3$, but not a terrible one.

[LastFootnote]

I don't think that fishing village is overpowered. Does anyone have access to the old stats on councilroom? As far as I can remember, the win rate with or without it was almost the same, at least the gap was way smaller than e.g. with swindler.

+3 actions, +2$ on a $3 card is insane.

No, it's not. It would be insane if it was "+3actions, +2$", but being a duration card is a big downside because of the huge risk to miss a shuffle - I guess you know why Lab costs so much more than Caravan and why Council Room gets a nerf but Wharf doesn't ...
Moreover, Fishing Village is often used in the context of a "draw your deck"-Engine, which raises the risk to miss a shuffle to almost 100%.

A more realistic way to think of fishing village is "Squire for actions + bazaar" when it's played and "neither nor" when it missed the shuffle. Its true strength lies somewhere in between these, which is a strong 3$, but not a terrible one.

I think this whole "weaker because it can miss a shuffle" thing is overblown. Yes, it makes Duration cards weaker than they would otherwise be. But a better way to think of it is, Fishing Village never actually nets you more than 1 Action and $1 per turn, even if you draw your deck. Silver actually adds $2 to the total amount your deck can produce.

[silverspawn]

actually, splitting the +3 actions over two turns is often an advantage, because the gap between 1 action and 2 is much bigger than the gap between 2 and 3. if you have 2, you can play your draw, and are likely to draw another village anyway

[LastFootnote]

actually, splitting the +3 actions over two turns is often an advantage, because the gap between 1 action and 2 is much bigger than the gap between 2 and 3. if you have 2, you can play your draw, and are likely to draw another village anyway

Agreed. Usually it's nicer to smooth out your +Actions over multiple turns. That's why Fishing Village is so good. But smoothing your Coins over multiple turns is usually bad. For most decks, you want to spike a few good buys multiple times during a game.

[Awaclus]

actually, splitting the +3 actions over two turns is often an advantage, because the gap between 1 action and 2 is much bigger than the gap between 2 and 3. if you have 2, you can play your draw, and are likely to draw another village anyway

It's advantageous, but also disadvantageous. You could play more Goons (or terminals in general) per turn with a +3 actions that isn't split over two turns. It would make winning the village split much less important in some games.

Mostly it's advantageous, though.

[serakfalcon]

Fishing village isn't overpowered because of three related things: It doesn't draw cards, it doesn't have a buy, and to break the game with fishing village you need an inordinate amount of them, and there's only 10 in the supply. (Contrast a deck of 4 silvers vs. 8 fishing villages).

Vanilla village has less variance because it replaces itself, fishing village costs you a card, which makes it less feasible without draw-- without a trim deck and a source of draw, it's a lot harder to consistently play fishing village. Likewise, there's not much point to get a mega engine going if you don't have buys or some other source of extra cards (e.g. haggler/remodel). Also, you need 2 of them for the consistent benefit, doubling the amount you need as opposed to non-duration cards you can play every turn-- there just isn't enough in the supply to break the game, and it takes too long to buy enough to break the game.

Ok, compare to game-breaking fishing village (Let's call it Ninja Viking Fishing Village)
+2 Actions +1 card (+1 Action,+1 buy next turn) (On your turn, while this is in play, all cards cost 1 less)
What do you think Ninja Viking Fishing Village should cost?

[Jimmmmm]

Vanilla village has less variance because it replaces itself, fishing village costs you a card, which makes it less feasible without draw-- without a trim deck and a source of draw, it's a lot harder to consistently play fishing village.

I think Fishing Village has way less variance than Vanilla Village, since one play of FV gives you a second action on two separate turns, so you're twice(ish) as likely to actually make use of it. This is especially true with terminal draw.

[eHalcyon]

Fishing village isn't overpowered because of three related things: It doesn't draw cards, it doesn't have a buy, and to break the game with fishing village you need an inordinate amount of them, and there's only 10 in the supply. (Contrast a deck of 4 silvers vs. 8 fishing villages).

Vanilla village has less variance because it replaces itself, fishing village costs you a card, which makes it less feasible without draw-- without a trim deck and a source of draw, it's a lot harder to consistently play fishing village. Likewise, there's not much point to get a mega engine going if you don't have buys or some other source of extra cards (e.g. haggler/remodel). Also, you need 2 of them for the consistent benefit, doubling the amount you need as opposed to non-duration cards you can play every turn-- there just isn't enough in the supply to break the game, and it takes too long to buy enough to break the game.

Ok, compare to game-breaking fishing village (Let's call it Ninja Viking Fishing Village)
+2 Actions +1 card (+1 Action,+1 buy next turn) (On your turn, while this is in play, all cards cost 1 less)
What do you think Ninja Viking Fishing Village should cost?

Start testing at $7.  It's probably going to cost more.  It's better than Highway on both turns, and the +Buy on the next turn means that it has incredible self-synergy.  It connects with itself even easier thanks to being a duration.

Note that it probably doesn't have a workable price point.  It can't be too low for obvious reasons, but at a higher price it gets swingy.  It's tough to get the first one, but whoever gets the first one has a much easier time getting more because of the duration price reduction and +Buy.

[LibraryAdventurer]

Ok, compare to game-breaking fishing village (Let's call it Ninja Viking Fishing Village)
+2 Actions +1 card (+1 Action,+1 buy next turn) (On your turn, while this is in play, all cards cost 1 less)
What do you think Ninja Viking Fishing Village should cost?

Start testing at $7.  It's probably going to cost more.  It's better than Highway on both turns, and the +Buy on the next turn means that it has incredible self-synergy.  It connects with itself even easier thanks to being a duration.

Note that it probably doesn't have a workable price point.  It can't be too low for obvious reasons, but at a higher price it gets swingy.  It's tough to get the first one, but whoever gets the first one has a much easier time getting more because of the duration price reduction and +Buy.

It costs $3, but in order to buy it you have a trash a province.

[Drab Emordnilap]

Ok, compare to game-breaking fishing village (Let's call it Ninja Viking Fishing Village)
+2 Actions +1 card (+1 Action,+1 buy next turn) (On your turn, while this is in play, all cards cost 1 less)
What do you think Ninja Viking Fishing Village should cost?

Start testing at $7.  It's probably going to cost more.  It's better than Highway on both turns, and the +Buy on the next turn means that it has incredible self-synergy.  It connects with itself even easier thanks to being a duration.

Note that it probably doesn't have a workable price point.  It can't be too low for obvious reasons, but at a higher price it gets swingy.  It's tough to get the first one, but whoever gets the first one has a much easier time getting more because of the duration price reduction and +Buy.

It costs $3, but in order to buy it you have a trash a province.

Go go workshop

[c4master]

Fishing village isn't overpowered because of three related things: It doesn't draw cards, it doesn't have a buy, and to break the game with fishing village you need an inordinate amount of them, and there's only 10 in the supply. (Contrast a deck of 4 silvers vs. 8 fishing villages).

Vanilla village has less variance because it replaces itself, fishing village costs you a card, which makes it less feasible without draw-- without a trim deck and a source of draw, it's a lot harder to consistently play fishing village. Likewise, there's not much point to get a mega engine going if you don't have buys or some other source of extra cards (e.g. haggler/remodel). Also, you need 2 of them for the consistent benefit, doubling the amount you need as opposed to non-duration cards you can play every turn-- there just isn't enough in the supply to break the game, and it takes too long to buy enough to break the game.

Ok, compare to game-breaking fishing village (Let's call it Ninja Viking Fishing Village)
+2 Actions +1 card (+1 Action,+1 buy next turn) (On your turn, while this is in play, all cards cost 1 less)
What do you think Ninja Viking Fishing Village should cost?

Start testing at $7.  It's probably going to cost more.  It's better than Highway on both turns, and the +Buy on the next turn means that it has incredible self-synergy.  It connects with itself even easier thanks to being a duration.

Note that it probably doesn't have a workable price point.  It can't be too low for obvious reasons, but at a higher price it gets swingy.  It's tough to get the first one, but whoever gets the first one has a much easier time getting more because of the duration price reduction and +Buy.

Absolutely. It's Highway and Market Square in one card and it gives +2 Actions over 2 turns. $7 might not even be enough.

Since Province costs $8 there is clearly a point where action cards cannot be useful if they're not silly. An action card for more than $8 must be so powerful that it evens out the Province you do not buy this turn. This means, if you spike this card early, you basically win the game because it's so amazing. This would increase luck factor to a point where Dominion is no fun any more - and you are also tempted to buy lot's of money cards just to get this amazing card as early as possible.

Fishing village is very strong, because you can load up on them without buying any treasure cards and still increase your economy. It enables strong $5 cards - which are likely to work in an engine anyways. If I'm going to build an engine I would almost always buy Fishing Village over Village just because it saves you 2 turns of building up your economy.

[Davio]

Fishing Village, very useful, very cute, but not overpowered.

I would say it is, not the same way as rebuild because the player with the most fishing villages doesn't win necessarily. But overpowered because almost every game you want to get at least one… so, not really a problem, but I don't agree saying it's not overpowered.

The lack of +Card can really hurt if your draw is less than stellar. It's a bit better than Festival for starting a chain, but suffers from the same problem a bit.

[hvb]

For me cards are really good designed, if they have a huge impact on many kingdoms and how games develop, without being a superstrong card for itself. They often open strategies that can compete with the usual powercard-strategies. For that reason i go with cards like Trader, Embargo, Masterpiece, Menagerie, Tunnel, Crossroads, Apothecary, Bishop or Fairgrounds.

[MarkowKette]

I'm gonna jump on the rats bandwagon.

The card is so thematic and can be so cute when given the right kingdom. Sometimes you think the card can never
really work here but when you actually try it you will be surprised.

You feel left alone inhabiting 3 estates with nobody there to play? Just invite a rat and share your things.
You will never be lonely anymore now, now you have a friend and soon two, three or more, up to even 20!


But i also really love Menagerie no other card is so satisfying when activated.

[RD]

I always thought Inn was a pretty piece of work. If you're buying Inn for the on-buy it probably means you have some trouble putting combos together otherwise, so a little sifting is probably welcome. Then the handsize reduction keeps big topdecked Inn stacks from being too good (although I guess I don't know if that would really be an issue or not). It all seems to click nicely.

[popsofctown]

Outpost.

[Stealth Tomato]

I don't think that fishing village is overpowered. Does anyone have access to the old stats on councilroom? As far as I can remember, the win rate with or without it was almost the same, at least the gap was way smaller than e.g. with swindler.

That stat is going to be really deceptive. FV is an extreme card in that you almost universally want one... its %+ on Councilroom is 92.1, highest in the game by over 2%... FV, Border Village, Caravan, and Goons make up the "more common than Silver" club. It has the unique property among those cards of costing only $3, making it available to nearly any deck (as opposed to Goons, which has a horrible Win Rate Without because often "I didn't buy it" is equivalent to "I wasn't able to buy it until it was too late to even bother buying it")... the only other cheapie is Caravan, which also has essentially equal win rates with/without.

Win rates with and without are the same because everybody buys it, except in the extremely rare case where it isn't useful.

[sitnaltax]

In a slightly different vein, I want to praise Chancellor and Swindler for wording choices that made Tunnel and Market Square work correctly all those years and expansions later.

(Chancellor: "put your deck into your discard pile" where it might otherwise have said "discard your deck"; Swindler: "Each other player trashes the top card" vs. "Trash the top card of each other player's deck")

[silverspawn]

yea, there are lots of impressive things about the game which show themselves only in the absence of problems that most people playing the game never even thought of