Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[-N-]

When you trash a card from your hand with Remodel, can you put the gained card back into your hand?
Gaining cards usually means you put them in your discard pile, but the dutch rulebook says you can put them in your hand with Remodel. I'm really confused because some other sources say you can't, so I'm starting to doubt the dutch translation. Could anyone please tell me what the official ruling is?

[Awaclus]

Yes, gaining a card means that you put it in your discard pile unless a card instructs you to do something else. Remodel doesn't say that you put the gained card into your hand, so it goes to the discard pile (unless another card, such as Watchtower, tells you to do something else with the card you gain with Remodel).

[dominator 123]

Welcome to the forums!
No, you cannot put the gained card into your hand.
I don't know about the Dutch version, but (in the base set) only Mine should be able to put gained cards into your hand.

[Ozle]

Oh those crazy Dutch and their whimsical rules!

[-N-]

Suddenly I like Remodel a lot less
In my play group we've always put it into our hands after remodeling it. This way you can turn an action card into a gold and play it even though you don't have any actions left.
I haven't encountered any balancing problems this way, so I would prefer to just put it into my hand, I think it's more fun that way. So is there any reason why I shouldn't, does it really tip the balance in favor of Remodel?

[Awaclus]

Suddenly I like Remodel a lot less
In my play group we've always put it into our hands after remodeling it. This way you can turn an action card into a gold and play it even though you don't have any actions left.
I haven't encountered any balancing problems this way, so I would prefer to just put it into my hand, I think it's more fun that way. So is there any reason why I shouldn't, does it really tip the balance in favor of Remodel?

Yes, it really does. Usually, when you have a card that gets rid of your bad cards, you have to do that at the cost of buying nothing or just something very cheap that turn, because getting rid of your bad cards is that strong. There are cards that let you keep some of your buying power that turn while getting rid of bad cards, but those cards are either expensive (Forge, Trading Post), bad at giving you money (Forager, Trade Route) or bad at getting rid of your bad cards (Moneylender, Jack of all Trades). Forager and Jack of all Trades are still considered to be among the best $3 and $4 cards respectively (Jack is even arguably the best $4 card there is), and your version of Remodel is a lot better than Jack of all Trades in almost every possible way.

Also, the thing is, you aren't supposed to end up in a situation where you have more Actions in your hand than you have actions left. You should either buy enough Villages to make sure you have enough actions for all of your Actions or alternatively, you should buy more Treasure cards and less Action cards to make sure that you will usually draw only one Action card per hand. This is an important aspect of Dominion strategy, and having a Remodel that is powerful enough to completely ignore that doesn't improve the game IMO.

Of course, if you want to play with your version of Remodel, you are free to do so if you think you'll enjoy the game more that way. It just might be that a lot of the advice you can get from this site, for example, won't apply to your games where Remodel is significantly more powerful than it is normally.

I should stress that this is just my opinion, and I'm coming from a viewpoint where I want to become as good at playing Dominion as I can. Having a powerful Remodel doesn't help me do that, since it makes the strategy different by making some key aspects less important, so it's not Dominion that I'm learning to play, it's Dominion that has been modified a little. However, I do prefer playing a variant online where a browser extension keeps track of score for both players, since it makes the strategy different by making some aspects that I'm already good at (keeping track of score) less important, putting more focus on the more difficult parts of the game - this actually makes me a better Dominion player, even though it's Dominion that has been modified a little. If your goals are different, then playing a different version of Dominion might work really well for you.

[DG]

So is there any reason why I shouldn't, does it really tip the balance in favor of Remodel?

Yes it does. It is the equivalent of buying a silver for 3 coins and then immediately putting that silver into play for +2 coins to spend.

[LastFootnote]

Also, the thing is, you aren't supposed to end up in a situation where you have more Actions in your hand than you have actions left. You should either buy enough Villages to make sure you have enough actions for all of your Actions or alternatively, you should buy more Treasure cards and less Action cards to make sure that you will usually draw only one Action card per hand. This is an important aspect of Dominion strategy, and having a Remodel that is powerful enough to completely ignore that doesn't improve the game IMO.

A agree with all of your post except this part. Whenever Donald talks about ways to deal with having limited Actions, one of the ways he always mentions is using Remodel- or Vault-type cards to trash or discard other Action cards in your hand.

EDIT: Here's an example (emphasis mine).

I broadly categorize decks by how you deal with the "one action per turn" rule:

1) only play a couple actions
2) play with actions with +1 action, or special treasures
3) play with villages
4) play with ways to make use of dead cards, broadly categorized as Remodel and Vault
5) play a strategy that tolerates having dead cards, such as Gardens

And of course you can combine these.

The main problem I see with terminal Remodel-to-hand is that it encourages you to turn your cards into Treasures (instead of Actions) so that you can play them that turn. It encourages less-interesting strategies.

I'm also guessing that it's probably a bit too strong power-wise, as others have suggested.

[-N-]

@Awaclus: Makes sense. However, you say trashing is good, but I don't think Remodal is a way of trashing, it just replaces stuff. Chapel can get rid of coppers or curses entirely but with Remodal you have to take another card that costs 2 or less, meaning you have to take a Moat, an Estate (which is even worse than a copper in some situations) or some other crappy card.
You are probably right about the high power level of the card though, I won't deny that.

On another note, what do you mean with 'the score'? VP?

[SirPeebles]

@Awaclus: Makes sense. However, you say trashing is good, but I don't think Remodal is a way of trashing, it just replaces stuff. Chapel can get rid of coppers or curses entirely but with Remodal you have to take another card that costs 2 or less, meaning you have to take a Moat, an Estate (which is even worse than a copper in some situations) or some other crappy card.
You are probably right about the high power level of the card though, I won't deny that.

On another note, what do you mean with 'the score'? VP?

Remodel isn't always a great card for the reasons you've given.  But Remodel can be nice for replacing Estates with decent cards like Village, Smithy, Throne Room, or Silver; you've trashed a bad card, gained a decent card, and may even have enough money leftover to buy another decent card too -- not a bad turn.  Another use of Remodel is for picking up multiple victory card later on.  For instance, you can scrap Moneylender for a Duchy as you buy a Province.  A classic is remodeling Gold into Provinces during your last hand or two.  There is some temptation to buy loads of Remodels and start a chain Copper -> Estate -> Remodel -> Gold -> Province, but alas this is usually too slow.

[Awaclus]

@Awaclus: Makes sense. However, you say trashing is good, but I don't think Remodal is a way of trashing, it just replaces stuff. Chapel can get rid of coppers or curses entirely but with Remodal you have to take another card that costs 2 or less, meaning you have to take a Moat, an Estate (which is even worse than a copper in some situations) or some other crappy card.
You are probably right about the high power level of the card though, I won't deny that.

On another note, what do you mean with 'the score'? VP?

Well, yeah, Remodel isn't super good at removing $0-costing cards from your deck, unless there's a $2 card that you actually want many copies of (with just the base game, that is pretty much never the case, maybe Cellar sometimes). But it is good at removing Estates from your deck.

Yes, I mean VP.

[soulnet]

I think the main problem is that Remodel Estate into Silver in hand is really strong for money strategies. Way stronger than Jack most of the time, which is already pretty good. Moreover, Remodel is way better than Jack at the endgame (to get extra VP cards), so this version of Remodel would be extremely strong. I think just buying Remodel, money and Provinces could be extremely strong, even stronger than Rebuild, and it is by no means a fun strategy.

[Ozle]

Put it this way..... If you start messing with cards because you think they work better that way, where does it end.....WHERE DOES IT END?!

before you know it down the line you'll have made all your own 'better' cards with more humorous names, given unlimited actions and buys and tried to pass it off as your own game or something

[Holger]

I think the main problem is that Remodel Estate into Silver in hand is really strong for money strategies. Way stronger than Jack most of the time, which is already pretty good. Moreover, Remodel is way better than Jack at the endgame (to get extra VP cards), so this version of Remodel would be extremely strong. I think just buying Remodel, money and Provinces could be extremely strong, even stronger than Rebuild, and it is by no means a fun strategy.

I don't think it's so clearly better than Jack for BM. In the early game, you effectively draw a Silver instead of an above average card with Jack, which is usually preferable. But when the starting Estates are trashed, Jack can still gain Silvers and draw a (treasure) card, which in-hand Remodel can't, it can only replace Coppers by (hopefully) slightly better $2 cards drawn dead. In the late game, in-hand Remodel is indeed clearly stronger than Jack, but no stronger than the normal Remodel. And unlike Jack, this does not really defend against any attack.
So I think it might still work as a very strong $4 card, though probably $5 would be a better cost.

[Awaclus]

I don't think it's so clearly better than Jack for BM. In the early game, you effectively draw a Silver instead of an above average card with Jack, which is usually preferable. But when the starting Estates are trashed, Jack can still gain Silvers and draw a (treasure) card, which in-hand Remodel can't, it can only replace Coppers by (hopefully) slightly better $2 cards drawn dead. In the late game, in-hand Remodel is indeed clearly stronger than Jack, but no stronger than the normal Remodel. And unlike Jack, this does not really defend against any attack.
So I think it might still work as a very strong $4 card, though probably $5 would be a better cost.

I think it is pretty clearly better than Jack for BM, since you can still trash dead Actions for Treasures after the Estates are gone.

[Holger]

I don't think it's so clearly better than Jack for BM. In the early game, you effectively draw a Silver instead of an above average card with Jack, which is usually preferable. But when the starting Estates are trashed, Jack can still gain Silvers and draw a (treasure) card, which in-hand Remodel can't, it can only replace Coppers by (hopefully) slightly better $2 cards drawn dead. In the late game, in-hand Remodel is indeed clearly stronger than Jack, but no stronger than the normal Remodel. And unlike Jack, this does not really defend against any attack.
So I think it might still work as a very strong $4 card, though probably $5 would be a better cost.

I think it is pretty clearly better than Jack for BM, since you can still trash dead Actions for Treasures after the Estates are gone.

But where do you "reliably" get dead Actions in a BM game? Gaining lots of Actions just to trash them doesn't seem like a good strategy to me, unless you can use them well whenever you draw them without Remodel. (And in this case I'd hesitate to call the strategy "BM"...) You could try to spam Remodels and then remodel Remodels, but this is only good when you have exactly two Remodels in hand, not one or 3+, so it's probably not very reliable.

[Awaclus]

I don't think it's so clearly better than Jack for BM. In the early game, you effectively draw a Silver instead of an above average card with Jack, which is usually preferable. But when the starting Estates are trashed, Jack can still gain Silvers and draw a (treasure) card, which in-hand Remodel can't, it can only replace Coppers by (hopefully) slightly better $2 cards drawn dead. In the late game, in-hand Remodel is indeed clearly stronger than Jack, but no stronger than the normal Remodel. And unlike Jack, this does not really defend against any attack.
So I think it might still work as a very strong $4 card, though probably $5 would be a better cost.

I think it is pretty clearly better than Jack for BM, since you can still trash dead Actions for Treasures after the Estates are gone.

But where do you "reliably" get dead Actions in a BM game? Gaining lots of Actions just to trash them doesn't seem like a good strategy to me, unless you can use them well whenever you draw them without Remodel. (And in this case I'd hesitate to call the strategy "BM"...) You could try to spam Remodels and then remodel Remodels, but this is only good when you have exactly two Remodels in hand, not one or 3+, so it's probably not very reliable.

If you don't draw them dead, it's even better. The point is, you don't have to worry about them colliding with Remodel: Instead of double Jack, you can go for double Remodel and add another typical BM Action without having to worry too much about collision.

[Holger]

I don't think it's so clearly better than Jack for BM. In the early game, you effectively draw a Silver instead of an above average card with Jack, which is usually preferable. But when the starting Estates are trashed, Jack can still gain Silvers and draw a (treasure) card, which in-hand Remodel can't, it can only replace Coppers by (hopefully) slightly better $2 cards drawn dead. In the late game, in-hand Remodel is indeed clearly stronger than Jack, but no stronger than the normal Remodel. And unlike Jack, this does not really defend against any attack.
So I think it might still work as a very strong $4 card, though probably $5 would be a better cost.

I think it is pretty clearly better than Jack for BM, since you can still trash dead Actions for Treasures after the Estates are gone.

But where do you "reliably" get dead Actions in a BM game? Gaining lots of Actions just to trash them doesn't seem like a good strategy to me, unless you can use them well whenever you draw them without Remodel. (And in this case I'd hesitate to call the strategy "BM"...) You could try to spam Remodels and then remodel Remodels, but this is only good when you have exactly two Remodels in hand, not one or 3+, so it's probably not very reliable.

If you don't draw them dead, it's even better. The point is, you don't have to worry about them colliding with Remodel: Instead of double Jack, you can go for double Remodel and add another typical BM Action without having to worry too much about collision.

My point is that Remodel is dead in BM when you draw it without a (non-treasure) target card in the early/mid game. So when the Estates are gone, you want to always draw Remodel with an Action card, but you never want to draw two of the non-Remodel Action cards in one hand (unless it's non-terminal). In the absence of perfect shuffle luck and good non-terminal support, you'll always get "really dead" Actions in about every second hand: either Remodel without a target or a surplus copy of the other Action.

[dondon151]

Suddenly I like Remodel a lot less
In my play group we've always put it into our hands after remodeling it. This way you can turn an action card into a gold and play it even though you don't have any actions left.
I haven't encountered any balancing problems this way, so I would prefer to just put it into my hand, I think it's more fun that way. So is there any reason why I shouldn't, does it really tip the balance in favor of Remodel?

There exist no cards in Dominion that allow the player to gain Action cards to hand. There must be a good reason for why that is.

(Edge case time: IW an Action-Victory card with an empty deck and discard. But the point stands.)

[Donald X.]

There exist no cards in Dominion that allow the player to gain Action cards to hand. There must be a good reason for why that is.

It tends to be crazy but is not impossible to do. There are two good examples in the outtakes article in the Cornucopia section.

On the first line we have Craftsman: "+1 action, remodel a card to hand." It died because it's insane. Compare Upgrade; putting the card in your hand is like +1 card only better, and you're getting +$2 to Upgrade's +$1.

On the second line we have Craftsman: "+1 card +1 action, discard x cards, gain a card costing up to $x to hand." That's much harder to abuse. It's so hard to abuse that some people didn't like it much and I replaced it. It had a few fans, but other stuff was trying to get into the set, so I didn't keep working on it. Obv. you could try charging less or adding +1 of something.

So, I did try the concept, multiple times (including on other cards in other sets); it died each time, but for different reasons. It's plausible that there's a good approach (feel free to work on this project in the appropriate forum).

[LastFootnote]

There exist no cards in Dominion that allow the player to gain Action cards to hand. There must be a good reason for why that is.

For reference, this custom card has been working just fine in playtesting for quite some time.

[mustang255]

http://souvagames.blogspot.ca/2014/01/distant-colonies-tinker.html

Was my take on it. Relatively weak, but lots of fun in an engine. It has some very neat combos with On-Trash cards.

[soulnet]

http://souvagames.blogspot.ca/2014/01/distant-colonies-tinker.html

Was my take on it. Relatively weak, but lots of fun in an engine. It has some very neat combos with On-Trash cards.

That looks interesting. I would try +2 Actions on it, though. A problem I see, especially with more players, is that when it is good, it may make the game finish really fast with lots of piles on the trash and decks not really too advanced. If that happens, you can try returning to the supply instead of trashing.

EDIT: Sorry for the derail.

[amalloy]

Suddenly I like Remodel a lot less
In my play group we've always put it into our hands after remodeling it. This way you can turn an action card into a gold and play it even though you don't have any actions left.
I haven't encountered any balancing problems this way, so I would prefer to just put it into my hand, I think it's more fun that way. So is there any reason why I shouldn't, does it really tip the balance in favor of Remodel?

There exist no cards in Dominion that allow the player to gain Action cards to hand. There must be a good reason for why that is.

(Edge case time: IW an Action-Victory card with an empty deck and discard. But the point stands.)

Easier edge case: gain a Fortress, trash it with Watchtower.