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Author Topic: Yin & Yang  (Read 8812 times)

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gambit05

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Yin & Yang
« on: April 30, 2014, 11:28:01 am »
0

Two cards, which are available as a pair of piles in the same Kingdom.

Code: [Select]
Yin (Action-Attack-Reaction)---(3)
+1 Card
Discard a Yang card. If you do, gain a Spoils from the Spoils-pile.
Each other player gains a Copper.
---------------
When another player plays a Yang card,
you may set this aside from your hand.
If you do, then at the start of your next turn,
+1 Action and return this to your hand.

Code: [Select]
Yang (Action-Attack-Reaction-Looter)---(3)
+1 Action
Discard a Yin card. If you do, take a coin token.
Each other player gains a Ruins.
---------------
When another player plays a Yin card,
you may set this aside from your hand.
If you do, then at the start of your next turn,
+1 Card and return this to your hand.
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KingZog3

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2014, 01:21:53 pm »
0

Think of treasure map and why it's weak. That's why these are weak. And on top of that they counter themselves. I'm not sure I would ever buy this. Its too slow to junk. Also discarding a Yin card is waaaay better than discarding a Yang card.
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Awaclus

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2014, 01:30:29 pm »
+1

Think of treasure map and why it's weak. That's why these are weak. And on top of that they counter themselves. I'm not sure I would ever buy this. Its too slow to junk. Also discarding a Yin card is waaaay better than discarding a Yang card.
I don't know. Yang isn't entirely useless even if you don't have a Yin in your deck, since it's non-terminal junking.
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silverspawn

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2014, 01:34:19 pm »
+1

the reward for having both in your hand needs to be bigger

KingZog3

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2014, 01:34:37 pm »
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Think of treasure map and why it's weak. That's why these are weak. And on top of that they counter themselves. I'm not sure I would ever buy this. Its too slow to junk. Also discarding a Yin card is waaaay better than discarding a Yang card.
I don't know. Yang isn't entirely useless even if you don't have a Yin in your deck, since it's non-terminal junking.

It's not useless, but I think you'd only use its attack once the Ruins run out, since I think Coin tokens are strong than Spoils a lot of the time.

But the main point is that they are the same as Treasure map in that they are dead cards unless you can ensure they are drawn in the same hand.
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gambit05

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2014, 01:35:06 pm »
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Think of treasure map and why it's weak. That's why these are weak. And on top of that they counter themselves. I'm not sure I would ever buy this. Its too slow to junk. Also discarding a Yin card is waaaay better than discarding a Yang card.
When I designed Yin & Yang, I exactly had treasure map in my mind for comparison. There are several subtle differences:
1) Yin & Yang both cost 3, which means you can get them in the first two rounds, and thus with a more dense deck.
2) Both allow to set them aside, giving a better chance to collide with the counterpart.
3) To some point they allow to draw an extra card.
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KingZog3

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2014, 01:40:41 pm »
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Think of treasure map and why it's weak. That's why these are weak. And on top of that they counter themselves. I'm not sure I would ever buy this. Its too slow to junk. Also discarding a Yin card is waaaay better than discarding a Yang card.
When I designed Yin & Yang, I exactly had treasure map in my mind for comparison. There are several subtle differences:
1) Yin & Yang both cost 3, which means you can get them in the first two rounds, and thus with a more dense deck.
2) Both allow to set them aside, giving a better chance to collide with the counterpart.
3) To some point they allow to draw an extra card.

I think you mean in a thinner deck for point 1.

You can only set them aside if your opponent also goes for them though. That's a point against them, not for them. Giving my opponent a 6 card hand is bad for me, even if i give them a Ruins. That's the main reason why Soothsayer is weak, even though it is terminal.

Also, would you open TM/TM with baker on the board? Why gamble on a 30% or so chance that they collide? That's like opening Urchin/Urchin and hoping they collide for the Merc, and even that misses often enough that's its not a super great opening most of the time. And if they miss then you gave yourself 4card hands on turn 3 and 4. That's aweful.
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Marcory

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2014, 01:42:26 pm »
0

Maybe you could have these stacked alternately in a single pile on setup (either 5 of each or 10 of each), so that it forces players to gain alternate cards, and doesn't take up two slots in the kingdom. You'd then have to figure out what happens if this stack is the Bane for Young Witch, and how these cards count for Fairgrounds/Harvest/Menagerie etc.

Alternately, you could stipulate that if one of these is in the Kingdom, the other must be an 11th Supply pile, but then do you want to have 12-card kingdoms with Young Witch in the game?
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Marcory

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2014, 01:47:11 pm »
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Quote
That's like opening Urchin/Urchin and hoping they collide for the Merc, and even that misses often enough that's its not a super great opening most of the time. And if they miss then you gave yourself 4card hands on turn 3 and 4. That's aweful.

Urchin is at least a cantrip, so it doesn't hurt your hand when it doesn't collide with itself, and it doesn't hurt when it collides with a terminal either. It also can deprive your opponent of an early $5 kingdom card even if it doesn't create a Mercenary. That's why opening Urchin/Urchin is much better than opening TM/TM.

Sure, there's still the problem that you'd rather have Silver if Urchin doesn't collide, but that's something every opening has to deal with. (You'd rather have Silver if Oracle draws only C/E, or your opening terminals collide, etc).
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gambit05

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2014, 02:02:17 pm »
0

Think of treasure map and why it's weak. That's why these are weak. And on top of that they counter themselves. I'm not sure I would ever buy this. Its too slow to junk. Also discarding a Yin card is waaaay better than discarding a Yang card.
When I designed Yin & Yang, I exactly had treasure map in my mind for comparison. There are several subtle differences:
1) Yin & Yang both cost 3, which means you can get them in the first two rounds, and thus with a more dense deck.
2) Both allow to set them aside, giving a better chance to collide with the counterpart.
3) To some point they allow to draw an extra card.

I think you mean in a thinner deck for point 1.

You can only set them aside if your opponent also goes for them though. That's a point against them, not for them. Giving my opponent a 6 card hand is bad for me, even if i give them a Ruins. That's the main reason why Soothsayer is weak, even though it is terminal.

Also, would you open TM/TM with baker on the board? Why gamble on a 30% or so chance that they collide? That's like opening Urchin/Urchin and hoping they collide for the Merc, and even that misses often enough that's its not a super great opening most of the time. And if they miss then you gave yourself 4card hands on turn 3 and 4. That's aweful.

Dense: in terms of action cards in your deck vs the total cards.
TM: If the official cards with a cost of (4) are accepted, I don't see why Yin & Yang shouldn't be viable (with some changes maybe, that's why I am presenting them here0
+1 Card with Yin enhances colliding quite remarkably I think (together with the fact that they both can be gained in the first 2 rounds).
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KingZog3

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2014, 02:16:49 pm »
0

Quote
That's like opening Urchin/Urchin and hoping they collide for the Merc, and even that misses often enough that's its not a super great opening most of the time. And if they miss then you gave yourself 4card hands on turn 3 and 4. That's aweful.

Urchin is at least a cantrip, so it doesn't hurt your hand when it doesn't collide with itself, and it doesn't hurt when it collides with a terminal either. It also can deprive your opponent of an early $5 kingdom card even if it doesn't create a Mercenary. That's why opening Urchin/Urchin is much better than opening TM/TM.

That's that point about Urchin. It's much more likely to collide and it's still not great.

Think of treasure map and why it's weak. That's why these are weak. And on top of that they counter themselves. I'm not sure I would ever buy this. Its too slow to junk. Also discarding a Yin card is waaaay better than discarding a Yang card.
When I designed Yin & Yang, I exactly had treasure map in my mind for comparison. There are several subtle differences:
1) Yin & Yang both cost 3, which means you can get them in the first two rounds, and thus with a more dense deck.
2) Both allow to set them aside, giving a better chance to collide with the counterpart.
3) To some point they allow to draw an extra card.

I think you mean in a thinner deck for point 1.

You can only set them aside if your opponent also goes for them though. That's a point against them, not for them. Giving my opponent a 6 card hand is bad for me, even if i give them a Ruins. That's the main reason why Soothsayer is weak, even though it is terminal.

Also, would you open TM/TM with baker on the board? Why gamble on a 30% or so chance that they collide? That's like opening Urchin/Urchin and hoping they collide for the Merc, and even that misses often enough that's its not a super great opening most of the time. And if they miss then you gave yourself 4card hands on turn 3 and 4. That's aweful.

Dense: in terms of action cards in your deck vs the total cards.
TM: If the official cards with a cost of (4) are accepted, I don't see why Yin & Yang shouldn't be viable (with some changes maybe, that's why I am presenting them here0
+1 Card with Yin enhances colliding quite remarkably I think (together with the fact that they both can be gained in the first 2 rounds).


I'm not saying they shouldn't be accepted as cards. I'm just saying that you should know that they probably aren't that strong. they also counter themselves, which is not always a good trait on a card especially when they are weak to begin with.

Mountebank counters itself, but it's very strong to that is a way to make it not as ridiculous. Yin and yang are already harder to junk with and on top of that you might give your opponent a larger hand on his next turn.
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Awaclus

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2014, 04:20:17 pm »
0

But the main point is that they are the same as Treasure map in that they are dead cards unless you can ensure they are drawn in the same hand.
But they aren't. They still junk the opponent. You don't even have to buy a Yin at all. +1 Action and handing out a Ruins is powerful enough for $3, I'd say.
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KingZog3

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2014, 04:44:19 pm »
0

But the main point is that they are the same as Treasure map in that they are dead cards unless you can ensure they are drawn in the same hand.
But they aren't. They still junk the opponent. You don't even have to buy a Yin at all. +1 Action and handing out a Ruins is powerful enough for $3, I'd say.

Oh! I see now, it's not conditional with the discard. Then never mind most of what I said.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2014, 05:06:30 pm »
0

But the main point is that they are the same as Treasure map in that they are dead cards unless you can ensure they are drawn in the same hand.
But they aren't. They still junk the opponent. You don't even have to buy a Yin at all. +1 Action and handing out a Ruins is powerful enough for $3, I'd say.

Oh! I see now, it's not conditional with the discard. Then never mind most of what I said.

I think the non-conditional clause should be before the "discard a card, if you do" clause. This would eliminate that confusion (which it's easy to see how one would be unsure which it is with the current wording).
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KingZog3

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2014, 05:11:42 pm »
0

But the main point is that they are the same as Treasure map in that they are dead cards unless you can ensure they are drawn in the same hand.
But they aren't. They still junk the opponent. You don't even have to buy a Yin at all. +1 Action and handing out a Ruins is powerful enough for $3, I'd say.

Oh! I see now, it's not conditional with the discard. Then never mind most of what I said.

I think the non-conditional clause should be before the "discard a card, if you do" clause. This would eliminate that confusion (which it's easy to see how one would be unsure which it is with the current wording).

Yeah that would help. Unlike official cards, this has both a conditional and non-conditional action. All the replies make so much more sense now.
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gambit05

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2014, 02:45:26 am »
0

To be honest. The junking effect was meant to be condtional and connected to the "If you do" clause. Anyway, would the following version be more satisfying?

Code: [Select]
Yin (Action-Attack-Reaction)---(3)
+1 Card
Each other player gains a Copper.
Discard a Yang card. If you do, gain a Spoils from the Spoils-pile.
---------------
When another player plays a Yang card,
you may set this aside from your hand.
If you do, then at the start of your next turn,
+1 Action and return this to your hand.


Code: [Select]
Yang (Action-Attack-Reaction-Looter)---(3)
+1 Action
Each other player gains a Ruins.
Discard a Yin card. If you do, take a coin token.
---------------
When another player plays a Yin card,
you may set this aside from your hand.
If you do, then at the start of your next turn,
+1 Card and return this to your hand.
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silverspawn

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2014, 09:35:34 am »
0

the benefit for colliding them is still too small. also, there is an issue with the discard clause. If you want to stay close to the official ways, it needs to be either "you may discard..." or "discard ... or show a hand with no ..."

otherwise, there is no way to determine if someone who doesn't discard a yang is playing correctly.

gambit05

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2014, 11:16:20 am »
0

Ok, it should be:

Code: [Select]
You may discard a Yang (Yin) card from your hand.
How about giving 2 Spoils or coin tokens. Is that strong enough?

Code: [Select]
If you do, gain 2 Spoils (coin tokens).
Alternatively, junking could be added in a reversed way:

For Yin:
Code: [Select]
If you do, gain a Spoils and each other player gains a Ruins.
For Yang:
Code: [Select]
If you do, take a coin token and each other player gains a Copper.
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KingZog3

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2014, 11:17:51 am »
+1

Ok, it should be:

Code: [Select]
You may discard a Yang (Yin) card from your hand.
How about giving 2 Spoils or coin tokens. Is that strong enough?

Code: [Select]
If you do, gain 2 Spoils (coin tokens).
Alternatively, junking could be added in a reversed way:

For Yin:
Code: [Select]
If you do, gain a Spoils and each other player gains a Ruins.
For Yang:
Code: [Select]
If you do, take a coin token and each other player gains a Copper.

If the junking is conditional, then all my comments are valid again.
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gambit05

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2014, 11:24:53 am »
0

Ok, it should be:

Code: [Select]
You may discard a Yang (Yin) card from your hand.
How about giving 2 Spoils or coin tokens. Is that strong enough?

Code: [Select]
If you do, gain 2 Spoils (coin tokens).
Alternatively, junking could be added in a reversed way:

For Yin:
Code: [Select]
If you do, gain a Spoils and each other player gains a Ruins.
For Yang:
Code: [Select]
If you do, take a coin token and each other player gains a Copper.

If the junking is conditional, then all my comments are valid again.

Junking would be both. The whole Yin card in that version would look like

Code: [Select]
Yin (Action-Attack-Reaction-Looter)---(3)
+1 Card
Each other player gains a Copper.
You may discard a Yang card from your hand.
If you do, gain a Spoils from the Spoils-pile
and each other player gains a Ruins.
---------------
When another player plays a Yang card,
you may set this aside from your hand.
If you do, then at the start of your next turn,
+1 Action and return this to your hand.
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KingZog3

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2014, 11:26:33 am »
0

Ok, it should be:

Code: [Select]
You may discard a Yang (Yin) card from your hand.
How about giving 2 Spoils or coin tokens. Is that strong enough?

Code: [Select]
If you do, gain 2 Spoils (coin tokens).
Alternatively, junking could be added in a reversed way:

For Yin:
Code: [Select]
If you do, gain a Spoils and each other player gains a Ruins.
For Yang:
Code: [Select]
If you do, take a coin token and each other player gains a Copper.

If the junking is conditional, then all my comments are valid again.

Junking would be both. The whole Yin card in that version would look like

Code: [Select]
Yin (Action-Attack-Reaction-Looter)---(3)
+1 Card
Each other player gains a Copper.
You may discard a Yang card from your hand.
If you do, gain a Spoils from the Spoils-pile
and each other player gains a Ruins.
---------------
When another player plays a Yang card,
you may set this aside from your hand.
If you do, then at the start of your next turn,
+1 Action and return this to your hand.

Oh ok, I see. That looks interesting. I think playtesting now will show whether they are good or not, but I suspect now that you can double junk and non-terminal junk they will be pretty good.
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silverspawn

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2014, 11:29:24 am »
0

How about giving 2 Spoils or coin tokens. Is that strong enough?
I'm not sure, but it's much closer to what I would estimate as a reasonable powerlevel. It might still be too weak, but it might also be too strong.


Quote
Junking would be both. The whole Yin card in that version would look like

Quote
Yin (Action-Attack-Reaction-Looter)---(3)
+1 Card
Each other player gains a Copper.
You may discard a Yang card from your hand.
If you do, gain a Spoils from the Spoils-pile
and each other player gains a Ruins.
---------------
When another player plays a Yang card,
you may set this aside from your hand.
If you do, then at the start of your next turn,
+1 Action and return this to your hand.

Quote from: KingZong3
Oh ok, I see. That looks interesting. I think playtesting now will show whether they are good or not, but I suspect now that you can double junk and non-terminal junk they will be pretty good.

yes, pretty much. I see one more problem though, which is that this version might not fit on a card
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 11:32:09 am by silverspawn »
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gambit05

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2014, 11:29:39 am »
0

Maybe Yang (or both) should cost 4 now.
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gambit05

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2014, 11:32:12 am »
0


 i thought that the point of the previous version was that the card does work on its own, and colliding them is just another benefit.
Yes, that was somewhat the idea. But isn't it still like that?
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gambit05

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Re: Yin & Yang
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2014, 12:40:08 pm »
0



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