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Author Topic: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Werewolves Win!)  (Read 21550 times)

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Teproc

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #200 on: May 15, 2014, 05:40:48 pm »

I feel like Robz starts a lot of games with "meh, D1, wake me up for D2".

I also feel like this is anti-town.

Ergo, lynch all Robzes.

I also feel like this is in no way indicative of Robz's alignment, or that if it is, it tends to indicate his towniness.

vote : TA

There's a reason we never lynch this early, it's because it's awful for town. This is trying to appeal for an early lynch in the "wouldn't it be cool ?" way, but it's an awful, awful idea, and TA should know this.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #201 on: May 15, 2014, 05:48:43 pm »

I feel like Robz starts a lot of games with "meh, D1, wake me up for D2".

I also feel like this is anti-town.

Ergo, lynch all Robzes.

I also feel like this is in no way indicative of Robz's alignment, or that if it is, it tends to indicate his towniness.

vote : TA

There's a reason we never lynch this early, it's because it's awful for town. This is trying to appeal for an early lynch in the "wouldn't it be cool ?" way, but it's an awful, awful idea, and TA should know this.

So you think we should always do things that maximize win percentage over things that are cool? Like obviously I get your point, but cool things are kinda neat too.

But seriously there's no way that Robz gets lynched today, which I disagree with. He made a HUGELY scummy post, obviously it's scummy because he got 7 different people to vote him because of 1 post, and now it's up to us to try to determine is Robz is scum or just generally disinterested? Cmon Robz can't you make it a little easier on us if you're town? Scummy posts are scummy, it shouldn't be our job to try to delve into it to see if it's actually scummy or bad town play, that should be on Robz to not make obviously scummy posts.

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Teproc

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #202 on: May 15, 2014, 05:53:28 pm »

I didn't find his post scummy at all.

And this is a normal game, which is why efficiency > cool factor. If it were RMM or bastard, sure you'd be right... which is why I don't play RMM or bastard.

I think your comment has a very real chance to motivate townies to actually go through with this lynch, and I don't think you're the kind of player who does that stuff as town (as opposed to, say, Axxle).
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Ichimaru Gin

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #203 on: May 15, 2014, 05:57:25 pm »

Ok. Back for a little bit. I'm a little lost already. If cards don't really speak to alignment at all--and people don't really know what they were discarding (I didn't), I don't really understand arguments based off of discarding.
Robz wagon is interesting. I have no idea what it is based on. It seems like there's still RVS going on.

Witherweaver

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #204 on: May 15, 2014, 05:59:03 pm »

Unvote

Mine was not a real vote, and I don't think all of the votes on him are either.  Robz has been basically away and barely posting in all his games for a couple of weeks.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #205 on: May 15, 2014, 05:59:23 pm »

I guess I have a different mindset in this game because it's Greater Idea...I am approaching it more RMM/Bastard like the normal. It got changed to be "normalized" with the rerolls and such but it's a huge game with a lot of PRs that may not be completely balanced, so no I am not treating this like a normal game.

I wouldn't be ok lynching Robz early if I didn't think he was scum. But that post was just ridiculous scummy.

Can you explain to me how it's NOT scummy? It wasn't phrased like "Hey, sorry guys, I won't have time for this", it was phrased as "Hey guys, I'm disinterested, and I want you to know that I'm disinterested!" First one isn't scummy to me, second one is very scummy to me. Why don't you think it was scummy?

I think letting him get away with a blatantly scummy post because it's Robz and he always plays like that is stupid, in my eyes it's a scummy post, and scummy posts make the poster more likely to be scum
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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #206 on: May 15, 2014, 05:59:44 pm »

Ok. Back for a little bit. I'm a little lost already. If cards don't really speak to alignment at all--and people don't really know what they were discarding (I didn't), I don't really understand arguments based off of discarding.
Robz wagon is interesting. I have no idea what it is based on. It seems like there's still RVS going on.

We're way out of RVS. And again, "interesting" doesn't really mean anything.

PPE : 2
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Ichimaru Gin

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #207 on: May 15, 2014, 06:02:51 pm »

Ok. Back for a little bit. I'm a little lost already. If cards don't really speak to alignment at all--and people don't really know what they were discarding (I didn't), I don't really understand arguments based off of discarding.
Robz wagon is interesting. I have no idea what it is based on. It seems like there's still RVS going on.

We're way out of RVS. And again, "interesting" doesn't really mean anything.

PPE : 2

Dahh! For the record, a lot of other people use the word interesting too. Maybe I'll cut it out of my vocabularly completely, so as to avoid this. But take a look, there are already 5 uses of this word on this thread. Seriously...

Admittedly, I haven't been following things super closely, but I don't see any "real" cases right now. Furthermore, how can you make assumptions about someone's alignment based upon a decision they made in relative ignorance?
How is that supposed to somehow bypass RVS?

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #208 on: May 15, 2014, 06:03:38 pm »

Can you explain to me how it's NOT scummy? It wasn't phrased like "Hey, sorry guys, I won't have time for this", it was phrased as "Hey guys, I'm disinterested, and I want you to know that I'm disinterested!" First one isn't scummy to me, second one is very scummy to me. Why don't you think it was scummy?

Well, it's not clear do me why you think it is. Even more, you say it's "blatantly" scummy : obviously it isn't since at least one person doesn't think it is.

I'm not sure why scum would be so enthusiastic to tell us they're disinterested. I almost posted something similar because I'm regretting signing up for this game a little (combination of this being a little too wacky for my taste and my finals being next week), but now I'm interested again, because your comment jumped out to me as super scummy.

PPE : 1
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Witherweaver

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #209 on: May 15, 2014, 06:04:58 pm »

I guess I have a different mindset in this game because it's Greater Idea...I am approaching it more RMM/Bastard like the normal. It got changed to be "normalized" with the rerolls and such but it's a huge game with a lot of PRs that may not be completely balanced, so no I am not treating this like a normal game.

I wouldn't be ok lynching Robz early if I didn't think he was scum. But that post was just ridiculous scummy.

Can you explain to me how it's NOT scummy? It wasn't phrased like "Hey, sorry guys, I won't have time for this", it was phrased as "Hey guys, I'm disinterested, and I want you to know that I'm disinterested!" First one isn't scummy to me, second one is very scummy to me. Why don't you think it was scummy?

I think letting him get away with a blatantly scummy post because it's Robz and he always plays like that is stupid, in my eyes it's a scummy post, and scummy posts make the poster more likely to be scum

Well, he's posted about how he's VLA many times, so perhaps he thought we had already seen his posts elsewhere.  I read his post as a bit of a joke, kind of like "yeah yeah you guys know the drill.. I'm behind at these games and I suck".
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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #210 on: May 15, 2014, 06:05:43 pm »

Ok. Back for a little bit. I'm a little lost already. If cards don't really speak to alignment at all--and people don't really know what they were discarding (I didn't), I don't really understand arguments based off of discarding.
Robz wagon is interesting. I have no idea what it is based on. It seems like there's still RVS going on.

We're way out of RVS. And again, "interesting" doesn't really mean anything.

PPE : 2

Dahh! For the record, a lot of other people use the word interesting too. Maybe I'll cut it out of my vocabularly completely, so as to avoid this. But take a look, there are already 5 uses of this word on this thread. Seriously...

Admittedly, I haven't been following things super closely, but I don't see any "real" cases right now. Furthermore, how can you make assumptions about someone's alignment based upon a decision they made in relative ignorance?
How is that supposed to somehow bypass RVS?

It's not like I'm on a crusade against the word "interesting", but your comment about the Robz wagon is basically empty content. Maybe other people are doing this as well and feel free to point them out, but I haven't particularly noticed it.

I don't think analysing the discarded cards is that interesting (heh) but I do think this Robz wagon and my incredibly awesome case on TA are enough to mean we're out of RVS.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #211 on: May 15, 2014, 06:05:52 pm »

Because we as a community have a track record of letting people get away with scummy behavior because "they wouldn't do that as scum"
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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #212 on: May 15, 2014, 06:07:05 pm »

Because we as a community have a track record of letting people get away with scummy behavior because "they wouldn't do that as scum"

What matters is not identifying scummy behavior, it's identifying who is scum. If town is doing something scummy, should we feel good about lynching them for it ? Of course not, the goal of this game is to lynch scum, not lynch scummy people.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #213 on: May 15, 2014, 06:07:49 pm »

Because we as a community have a track record of letting people get away with scummy behavior because "they wouldn't do that as scum"

What matters is not identifying scummy behavior, it's identifying who is scum. If town is doing something scummy, should we feel good about lynching them for it ? Of course not, the goal of this game is to lynch scum, not lynch scummy people.

... certainly the former is a step to the latter.
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Teproc

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #214 on: May 15, 2014, 06:10:26 pm »

Because we as a community have a track record of letting people get away with scummy behavior because "they wouldn't do that as scum"

What matters is not identifying scummy behavior, it's identifying who is scum. If town is doing something scummy, should we feel good about lynching them for it ? Of course not, the goal of this game is to lynch scum, not lynch scummy people.

... certainly the former is a step to the latter.

What I mean is there is no such thing as objectively "scummy behavior". Everything has to be put in context, and Robz saying "I don't really care about this game" might be scummy if someone else says it, but it's not scummy when Robz does it™.
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chairs

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #215 on: May 15, 2014, 06:14:02 pm »

Because we as a community have a track record of letting people get away with scummy behavior because "they wouldn't do that as scum"

What matters is not identifying scummy behavior, it's identifying who is scum. If town is doing something scummy, should we feel good about lynching them for it ? Of course not, the goal of this game is to lynch scum, not lynch scummy people.

... certainly the former is a step to the latter.

What I mean is there is no such thing as objectively "scummy behavior". Everything has to be put in context, and Robz saying "I don't really care about this game" might be scummy if someone else says it, but it's not scummy when Robz does it™.

...So you're saying Robz is IC now?  ??? ::) :P 8)

Ichimaru Gin

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #216 on: May 15, 2014, 06:14:57 pm »

No. Teproc just trademarked the word 'it'. You better watch out.

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #217 on: May 15, 2014, 06:15:40 pm »

Because we as a community have a track record of letting people get away with scummy behavior because "they wouldn't do that as scum"

What matters is not identifying scummy behavior, it's identifying who is scum. If town is doing something scummy, should we feel good about lynching them for it ? Of course not, the goal of this game is to lynch scum, not lynch scummy people.

... certainly the former is a step to the latter.

What I mean is there is no such thing as objectively "scummy behavior". Everything has to be put in context, and Robz saying "I don't really care about this game" might be scummy if someone else says it, but it's not scummy when Robz does it™.

...So you're saying Robz is IC now?  ??? ::) :P 8)

I mean, he hasn't done a setup mistake yet, so I'll hold off on that.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #218 on: May 15, 2014, 06:16:08 pm »

And I think TA's point here is that scum are able to hind under the WIFOM protection of being blatantly scummy (with "they wouldn't do that as scum").  So he's saying scummy behavior is indicative of actual scumminess.

PPE: Sure, our reads and interpretations are subjective.  But that's still how we go about this game.
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chairs

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #219 on: May 15, 2014, 06:16:48 pm »

But seriously, I think it's probably a null tell for Robz.  Still, D1 is more fun when we're all talking, isn't itTM Teproc?


PPE: interesting!


Also I'm feeling giddy/goofy today, watch out.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #220 on: May 15, 2014, 06:18:20 pm »

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #221 on: May 15, 2014, 06:19:06 pm »

But seriously, I think it's probably a null tell for Robz.  Still, D1 is more fun when we're all talking, isn't itTM Teproc?


PPE: interesting!


Also I'm feeling giddy/goofy today, watch out.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Are you sure the contraction does not need to be trademarked as well?
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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #222 on: May 15, 2014, 06:21:19 pm »


PPE: interesting!


...I knew it.

By the way I Ctrl+Fed "interesting" in the last few pages and the only other instance was XP (or xeiron, one of those) using it about Axxle's choice of cards, except he elaborated, so I was not being unfair here.
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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #223 on: May 15, 2014, 06:28:02 pm »


PPE: interesting!


...I knew it.

By the way I Ctrl+Fed "interesting" in the last few pages and the only other instance was XP (or xeiron, one of those) using it about Axxle's choice of cards, except he elaborated, so I was not being unfair here.

No you're right. I do probably overuse that word--often without specific meaning attached.
From now on (seriously), I will make more of a conscious effort to use it only with additional explanation.  I guess I often use it when I am somewhat unsure to make of something.

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Re: Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia (Day 1!)
« Reply #224 on: May 15, 2014, 06:33:58 pm »

I don't think you're the kind of player who does that stuff as town (as opposed to, say, Axxle).


My vote *is* a real vote. Robz posted what he did for a reason. There are multiple things he could be trying to accomplish.

1) "I'm not going to be looking too closely to this game." Implying that he's setting himself up for being wrong later down the road.
2) "I'm going to lurk today." Making sure he'll at least survive the day. It's likely many of us here won't look at him critically for it either.
3) "I'm lurking EVERYWHERE, lol look at this joke I make" Meh.

I can't think of a good town motivated reason for posting it. The first is scum, the second is nulltoscum, the third is antitown (not necessarily scum).


@iGin: "Interesting" means nothing regarding alignments. Instead say something like "Seems scumdriven" or "Seems like town might have a decent case"
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