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[mail-mi]

Welcome to

Mafia XLIV: Donald's Greater Idea Mafia!

Signups are open!
1. Twistedarcher An Adventurer, a Town Tracker--Killed N1
2. Voltaire
3. Robz888 A Tunneler, a Town Hider--Lynched D1
4. Ichimaru Gin
5. Axxle
6. Teproc A Pillager, a 1-shot Town Dayvig--Killed N1
7. Witherweaver
8. scott_pilgrim
9. Beyond Awesome
10. jotheonah A Spy, a Town Cop--Treestumped N1
11. XerxesPraelor
12. A Drowned Kernel A Golem, a 2-shot Bulletproof Serial Killer--Lynched D2
13. EgorK
14. chairs Archetype
15. xeiron A Spy, a Town Cop--Killed N1
16. Nik
...

Mod: mail-mi. Comod: AndrewisFTTW

Basic Mafia Ruleset changes in limegreen

The Golden Rule:

Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun!  Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.

Please read The Civility Pledge before signing up for any mafia game on this site.  If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play.

Excessive personal attacks or uncivil behavior may be dealt with by modifiers or modkills.

Game Summary:

Mafia is a social deduction game.  There is an "informed minority" (the mafia) and an "uninformed majority" (the town).  The mafia know who each other are, and are trying to be the only people left alive.  The town doesn't know who anybody else is, and are trying to find and lynch all of the mafia.  The mafia, to make sure the town doesn't know who they are, must pretend to be town to win.  The mafia usually can kill at night, to help them in being the only ones left alive.

1. General Gameplay and Etiquette:

1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind.  Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it.  Mafia members may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage.
3. If you have a role with a Night action your choices are due to all mods by the posted deadline (generally 48 hours from Night start during the first few Nights; later Nights may have shorter deadlines).  If we do not receive your PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions.  In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used.  If your Night action was mandatory, it will be decided randomly.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage).
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mods know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase.
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 24 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.

2. Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:

1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate.  Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until the mods lock the thread; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. Day 1 will last 7 days. Subsequent days will last 10 days. IF THERE ARE 6 OR LESS PLAYERS STILL ALIVE, DAYS WILL LAST 7 DAYS.
5. If there is no majority at day deadline, a No Lynch will occur.
6. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName.  Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
7. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
8. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
9. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post in the game or in Quicktopics. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
10. If the thread is locked, you may not post.  Threads can be locked for various reasons, but no matter what the reason, you may not post.  The mod may forget to lock the thread, but if they say it is locked, it is still locked.
11. Do not edit or delete posts.  We don't want some players having more information than others.  If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post. Mods will not edit posts for you.

3. Miscellaneous/Mechanics:

1. Bold, colored text is reserved for the Mods.  No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mods privately.  Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mods may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently.  Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed.  These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mods so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued upon request after 36 hours of no activity.  A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement.  A player who has been prodded 2 times is subject to replacement under rule 3.10 without further notice.
6. Please do not discuss ongoing games, it can unintentionally affect the other game.
7. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, which may include modkill(s) if needed.
8. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread or the V/LA thread.  Treat this game as a commitment.  Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.
9. Players who discover they are too busy to play in a game or want to leave the game for civility issues are not allowed to officially /out in the thread.  A request to /out must only be done via a PM to the moderator.  Please do not use this as a manipulation technique.  (Note players may continue to threaten to /out or imply that they might as long as it does not include an official request).  Requests to /out are final once submitted.  There will be no /outing and then /inning back into the game so make sure that when you /out you have thought it through and really want to do it. Players that can't be replaced will simply be mod-killed.
10. If a player wants to /out, they may be replaced by anyone on D1-N1.  On D2-N2, no one from the speccy may replace the player.  After this, a player who /outs may not be replaced.  It is up to the mod's discretion whether to modkill the player or do something else under these circumstances.

Helpful Links:

Wiki Links:

--Main Wiki Page

--Newbie Guide

--Frequently Asked Questions

--Commonly Used Abbreviations

--Mafia Theory

Forum Links:

--Vacation/Limited Access announcements

--Mafia Lingo/Dictionary

Game specifics to follow.

[mail-mi]

Greater Idea Mafia.

Mechanics:
-Daystart
-At the start of the game, each player will receive a PM with 2 Dominion cards. They will then choose 1 card and discard the other. That card will determine their role.
-After every player has chosen their card, if the mods deem the game to be imbalanced, then the cards will be reshuffled and re-dealt.
-Once a balanced game has been created, everyone will be PM'd the role that corresponds to their card.
-A list of all roles and their corresponding cards will be posted on D1, along with each player's discarded cards.
-The Replicant faction will not be used in this game.
-Some card-role connections are really obvious. Some are more obscure.
-Just because a card is more powerful than another does not mean the role is more powerful. The role with Scout may be more powerful than the role with Moutebank!

-Masons are not guaranteed to be town to each other--they are, however, guaranteed not to be mafia.

Also of note: All cards in the deck EXCEPT FOR THE SAULUS ROLE are being used.

[Twistedarcher]

-A list of all roles and their corresponding cards will be posted on D1, along with each player's discarded cards.

Does this mean that there will be a list of 13 cards but it doesn't say who discarded what, or that it will be announced who discarded which card?

Oh, and /in

[mail-mi]

-A list of all roles and their corresponding cards will be posted on D1, along with each player's discarded cards.

Does this mean that there will be a list of 13 cards but it doesn't say who discarded what, or that it will be announced who discarded which card?

Oh, and /in

There will be a list of 13 cards and it won't say who discarded what.

[ashersky]

/tag

[ashersky]

This is XLIV.  44.

[Voltaire]

/in

[Voltaire]

There will be a list of 13 cards and it won't say who discarded what.

Oh, it won't? It was my understanding that Greater Idea(s) did show this, hence the wiki comment about how it "skips" RVS? Or did I misunderstand that?

[Ichimaru Gin]

I am tempted to join. When do you estimate this will start?

[Robz888]

/in

[XerxesPraelor]

/in

[Robz888]

Gotta fix the title though.

[Ichimaru Gin]

/in

I can learn the details later. This looks like it's going to be awesome!

[Axxle]

Greater idea with balance??? Pfft.

/in

[theorel]

/in

[Twistedarcher]

Greater idea with balance??? Pfft.

/in

Yeah this was kinda my thought. We know what we're getting into isn't no guarantee of balance kinda the point?

[mail-mi]

Note the new deadline rules.

[mail-mi]

There will be a list of 13 cards and it won't say who discarded what.

Oh, it won't? It was my understanding that Greater Idea(s) did show this, hence the wiki comment about how it "skips" RVS? Or did I misunderstand that?

I might have misunderstood it. Though it doesn't say either in the wiki...

[Witherweaver]

/in

[Axxle]

There will be a list of 13 cards and it won't say who discarded what.

Oh, it won't? It was my understanding that Greater Idea(s) did show this, hence the wiki comment about how it "skips" RVS? Or did I misunderstand that?

I might have misunderstood it. Though it doesn't say either in the wiki...

In greater idea you know who discarded what, it helps to start discussion. In strange idea you don't.

[Axxle]

But I mean you can always alter it as you want.

[scott_pilgrim]

/in

[mail-mi]

There will be a list of 13 cards and it won't say who discarded what.

Oh, it won't? It was my understanding that Greater Idea(s) did show this, hence the wiki comment about how it "skips" RVS? Or did I misunderstand that?

I might have misunderstood it. Though it doesn't say either in the wiki...

In greater idea you know who discarded what, it helps to start discussion. In strange idea you don't.

Nvm then, we will know who discarded what.

[AndrewisFTTW]

/in

[jotheonah]

in

[XerxesPraelor]

I don't think you put me on the list.

[mail-mi]

I don't think you put me on the list.

you never /inned. is this an /in?

[Axxle]

/in

[mail-mi]

/in

i swear you just edited that in... 

[Ichimaru Gin]

Wow. This is filling up really fast. Sorry to ask again, but when are you thinking you'll start this?

[mail-mi]

Wow. This is filling up really fast. Sorry to ask again, but when are you thinking you'll start this?

after WOT is over.

[A Drowned Kernel]

/in

[EgorK]

Am I hammering?

/in

[Axxle]

There's an ellipsis after the 13th slot in the playercount, I assume that means the number of players is fluid and anyone who wants to join can.

[Ichimaru Gin]

There's an ellipsis after the 13th slot in the playercount, I assume that means the number of players is fluid and anyone who wants to join can.

Well with 205 dominion cards including promos, thats...

[Axxle]

There's an ellipsis after the 13th slot in the playercount, I assume that means the number of players is fluid and anyone who wants to join can.

Well with 205 dominion cards including promos, thats...

Are you including Knights and Prizes?

[Ichimaru Gin]

There's an ellipsis after the 13th slot in the playercount, I assume that means the number of players is fluid and anyone who wants to join can.

Well with 205 dominion cards including promos, thats...

Are you including Knights and Prizes?

Knights as a stack counting as one, not prizes I though. Do you think they'll be included here?

[Axxle]

There's an ellipsis after the 13th slot in the playercount, I assume that means the number of players is fluid and anyone who wants to join can.

Well with 205 dominion cards including promos, thats...

Are you including Knights and Prizes?

Knights as a stack counting as one, not prizes I though. Do you think they'll be included here?

The Greater Idea deck only has 139 cards in it, so no need.

[Witherweaver]

There's an ellipsis after the 13th slot in the playercount, I assume that means the number of players is fluid and anyone who wants to join can.

Well with 205 dominion cards including promos, thats...

Are you including Knights and Prizes?

Knights as a stack counting as one, not prizes I though. Do you think they'll be included here?

The Greater Idea deck only has 139 cards in it, so no need.

Is the Ace of Spades in it?

[Ichimaru Gin]

There's an ellipsis after the 13th slot in the playercount, I assume that means the number of players is fluid and anyone who wants to join can.

Well with 205 dominion cards including promos, thats...

Are you including Knights and Prizes?

Knights as a stack counting as one, not prizes I though. Do you think they'll be included here?

The Greater Idea deck only has 139 cards in it, so no need.

Ok. So what exactly is "The Greater Idea Deck"? (excuse my ignorance)

[Axxle]

Ok. So what exactly is "The Greater Idea Deck"? (excuse my ignorance)

These are all the possible roles in the game (it's also linked in the rules info): http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Greater_Idea_Mafia

I'm not exactly sure how it's going to happen this game, but in normal Greater Idea Mafia games you get dealt 2 of these cards randomly, chose one and discard the other. I've played this IRL once where 5 of 9 players were masons, haha.

[mail-mi]

I could also use a co mod for anyone who is willing.

[chairs]

/in

[A Drowned Kernel]

So I'm looking through the deck on mafiascum, and it seems like there's a lot of stuff in there that usually isn't considered "normal", but this game counts as standard? Just curious.

[mail-mi]

So this filled really fast. However, it will not start until Wheel of Time is officially over.

In the meantime, go sign up for Monsters U mafia, as that only needs one more player to start.

[ashersky]

So this filled really fast. However, it will not start until Wheel of Time is officially over.

In the meantime, go sign up for Monsters U mafia, as that only needs one more player to start.

Yes!  And also Innovation II!

[mail-mi]

Notice: changes to the mechanics, and the deadline rules.

[Twistedarcher]

I really really like the deadline rules

[Axxle]

So I'm looking through the deck on mafiascum, and it seems like there's a lot of stuff in there that usually isn't considered "normal", but this game counts as standard? Just curious.

I agree this isn't very normal, but there are plenty of other setups that aren't really normal that have made it into normalcy on this site. Bus Driver, redirectors, weird mechanics, etc.

[mail-mi]

I really really like the deadline rules

Thanks 

[Voltaire]

So I'm looking through the deck on mafiascum, and it seems like there's a lot of stuff in there that usually isn't considered "normal", but this game counts as standard? Just curious.

Plus, the mod will be reviewing the setup for something close to balance-ish prior to the game, and we'll "re-roll" if needed.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'd be down for Co-Modding but I would have absolutely no idea what to do. That probably wouldn't be so great.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I mean if it's just posting vote counts and locking the thread then yeah, count me in.

[ashersky]

I'm not playing, so I can do a balance check.

[Twistedarcher]

I think personally I'd prefer no balance check and the game to not count for stats, that's kinda the point of the game, right? If we're going for a balanced game, there's setups that are much better than this one at ensuring balance.

[mail-mi]

I mean if it's just posting vote counts and locking the thread then yeah, count me in.

You're in.

[mail-mi]

I'm not playing, so I can do a balance check.

Thanks. If i need it i'll PM you.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I mean if it's just posting vote counts and locking the thread then yeah, count me in.

You're in.

Word.

[Archetype]

/in I'm hoping for some Madness!

[A Drowned Kernel]

So how exactly does cult work in this setup? Do they get a factional kill or do they have to rely on lynches to become the majority?

[mail-mi]

So how exactly does cult work in this setup? Do they get a factional kill or do they have to rely on lynches to become the majority?

Lynches.

[mail-mi]

Come on! Let's get more players than Modern Community!

[yuma]

ummmm... /tag.

This filled up crazy fast. I don't think I was going to sign up for it, but now that I see that it filled up so fast it makes me kinda wish I could have...

/willingtosubin

[theorel]

Note the ... yuma, you can still sign up if you want.

[mail-mi]

ummmm... /tag.

This filled up crazy fast. I don't think I was going to sign up for it, but now that I see that it filled up so fast it makes me kinda wish I could have...

/willingtosubin

what theorel said. there is no limit to the number of players. (well, we want to stay within the bonds of sanity)

[yuma]

I think personally I'd prefer no balance check and the game to not count for stats, that's kinda the point of the game, right? If we're going for a balanced game, there's setups that are much better than this one at ensuring balance.

If that is the case then I believe it should be run as a Bastard game in that queue.

However, I am planning on using this for stats as long as there was a pre-determined "balance" analysis. Although I wonder if some sort of schematics should be developed to determine what is "balanced." Maybe not anything too specific, but a general idea of what the mod is looking for.

[yuma]

I think I will sit it out, but am willing to sub.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Well I'm comodding apparently so there IS one more spot.

[Archetype]

Actually, I should probably /out. This, Inno, and MU would be a lot of games to be in.

I can balance check/co-mod if there's an open position in the moderation department.

[xeiron]

/In

[Nik]

/in

[Teproc]

I mean this does seem crazy awesome... but maybe too crazy. Not a fan of it starting so close to Monsters University. If it starts like a week later I'll /in but obviously with this many signups I find that unlikely.

[Teproc]

Won't star until Wheel of Time is over ? I completely stopped following that, let's take a look.

I guess it probably won't end RIGHT NOW, so...

/in

I'm scared though. Probably won't be as active as usual too.

[Beyond Awesome]

I have never ever played forum mafia, but I want to give it a shot.

/in

[AndrewisFTTW]

I have never ever played forum mafia, but I want to give it a shot.

/in

Welcome! Make sure you read and sign the Civility Pledge before the game starts.

mail-mi I guess you can take me off the player list if I'm comodding.

[mail-mi]

I have never ever played forum mafia, but I want to give it a shot.

/in

Welcome! Make sure you read and sign the Civility Pledge before the game starts.

mail-mi I guess you can take me off the player list if I'm comodding.

i knew that...

[theorel]

I've got 1 too many things going on with non-mafia games, and this game is bigger than I really prefer...
so, /out.

[Voltaire]

This really needs to start.

[mail-mi]

This really needs to start.

well WOT isn't over yet.

[Voltaire]

This really needs to start.

well WOT isn't over yet.

massvig: WOT

[Robz888]

If this game starts any time soon, I will also have to /out. I don't want to, though!

[Axxle]

If this game starts any time soon, I will also have to /out. I don't want to, though!

[Ichimaru Gin]

If this game starts any time soon, I will also have to /out. I don't want to, though!

Similar thing here. (and yes, I am sheeping Robz)

PPE: Axxle 

[mcmcsalot]

What y'all waitin for?

[Twistedarcher]

Send me my pm!

[Nik]

Yes! Please do!!!!!

[Ichimaru Gin]

3 vs. 3?

Seriously though, I am ok with this game starting I guess. I just won't be able to participate much until my finals are over.

[mail-mi]

If this game starts any time soon, I will also have to /out. I don't want to, though!

If this game starts any time soon, I will also have to /out. I don't want to, though!

If this game starts any time soon, I will also have to /out. I don't want to, though!

Similar thing here. (and yes, I am sheeping Robz)

PPE: Axxle 

So when do you guys want to start?

[Axxle]

Oh, I'm better now, I could start soon.

[Voltaire]

asap

[Nik]

Also asap.

[mail-mi]

Does Monday sound good for everyone?

[A Drowned Kernel]

It does for me.

[jotheonah]

I'm going to be very low participation for the first week if we start Monday.

[scott_pilgrim]

Monday sounds good to me

[XerxesPraelor]

Monday's fine.

[Nik]

Okay...Monday.
But I would prefer Sunday. 

[mail-mi]

So actually I've decided to send out the first round of PMs today.

So that means Thread locked!

[mail-mi]

All PMs are sent! Please have your card choices in by 8 PM FT on Monday, May 12th.

[mail-mi]

Oh, and please also remember: card power does not necessarily indicate role power. Scout may be more powerful than Rebuild for all you know.

[ashersky]

Scout may be is more powerful than Rebuild for all you know.

Mod Fixed.

[mail-mi]

We're going to have to reroll the setup, sadly. I'll do it when I get home from school.

[mail-mi]

We're going to have to reroll the setup, sadly. I'll do it when I get home from school.

Setup has been rerolled, and PMs sent. Please reply by 8 PM FT on Tuesday, May 13.

[mail-mi]

Okay it's about as balanced as we're going to get it. I'll send out role pms and start night 0 when I get home

[Delirious Deleuze]

too late to /in?

[yuma]

too late to /in?

Yes. mail-mi has already sent out cards to players. You can put in to be a sub like me if needed! Or you can sign up for this game if you haven't already... http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10757.0

[shraeye]

not in.

[mail-mi]

Okay all role PMs are out. Night 0 will end at 10 PM FT on Wednesday, May 14th.

Thread locked (except for /taggers)

[mail-mi]

Sorry I'm busy right now I will start this when I'm done

[mail-mi]

It was your average game of dominion. Except for the fact that there were 18 players and nearly every kingdom card was being used. Mail-mi had managed to get the lead somehow, playing multiple Torturers every turn.

Some were tired of his ridiculous play. They formed into little groups, collaborating and planning to finally end this game of Dominion--once and for all.

Mail-mi played a second Torturer, and reluctantly, everyone discarded 2 cards--everyone only had one card in hand. Everyone waited for the inevitable third Torturer, but none came. Maybe his engine faltered, some fools thought. Maybe he'll just buy the last province and end it.

Then they saw the blood on the table.

Someone screamed. "Clean it up! It will stain the cards!" After that had been taken care of, they saw the body. Mail-mi, lying slumped on the table, not breathing.

The players looked around at each other. "What do we do?" one said. "Maybe we could just end the game.... It's gone on long enough..." another one said, sounding hopeful.

"NO!" one said, standing up and knocking his chair over. "This game is NOT over until we found out who could have done this." AndrewisFTTW slammed his single card onto the table. A Cellar. "I'm innocent. Who's next?"

DAY 1 START!
THREAD UNLOCKED!

Vote Count 1.0

Not Voting (16): Twistedarcher, Voltaire, Robz888, Ichimaru Gin, Axxle, Teproc, Witherweaver, scott_pilgrim, Beyond Awesome, jotheonah, XerxesPraelor, A Drowned Kernel, EgorK, chairs, xeiron, Nik

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on Wed. May 21 at 11 PM FT.

Everyone looked around the table. "Well," one said, "what info do we already have?"

"Discard piles..." another replied.

Everyone looked at everyone else's discard piles. Twistedarcher had a Trader, Voltaire had a Hoard, Robz888 had a Scrying Pool, Ichimaru Gin had a Moat, Axxle had a Mountebank, Teproc had a Fortress, Witherweaver had a Rats, scott_pilgrim had a Forager, Beyond Awesome had an Altar, jotheonah had a Bank, XerxesPraelor had a Young Witch, A Drowned Kernel had a Rabble, EgorK had a Navigator, chairs had a Count, xeiron had a Band of Misfits, and Nik had a Vagrant.

[Ichimaru Gin]

first!

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: WW for discarding the best card in the game.

[Voltaire]

I AM IN MAFIA AGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIN

[Ichimaru Gin]

Seriously though. I will only be able to post very, very little until after next Thursday.
4+ finals coming up...

[Voltaire]

Oh, we know what all the cards are?

Um...card claim and win?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Oh, we know what all the cards are?

Um...card claim and win?

Yes. quickly before scum has time to come up with good fakeclaims.

[Voltaire]

Yes, Volt, that totally works. There are 205 people in this game.

[Voltaire]

So nobody has Taxman, because Andrew wasn't vigged upon reveal. I'll look at what people discared later. Looks like my Hoard turned out to be a...mafia hider? 

[A Drowned Kernel]

Seems risky, scum would just risk a fakeclaim out of the large number of cards. Yeah we might catch one but then scum knows who all the PRs are.

PPE: 130 something but yeah.

PPE 2: It's card of hard to analyze what people discarded because no one knew what they were.

[Axxle]

I don't see Cellar on the list.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'm actually kind of dissapointed I discarded the moat. Retired werewolf hunter sounds really cool.

On a side note, do we know what any of these other roles actually do? Or do we just guess?

[Axxle]

PPE 2: It's card of hard to analyze what people discarded because no one knew what they were.

Most? of the attack cards are scum roles and I would assume people could guess that. Those who discarded attack cards are probably? less likely to be scum and those who discarded nonattack cards are more likely? to be scum.

It's minor but maybe something to go on for now.

[Axxle]

I'm actually kind of dissapointed I discarded the moat. Retired werewolf hunter sounds really cool.

On a side note, do we know what any of these other roles actually do? Or do we just guess?

I know what most of them do, just ask.

They're also ?all? here: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Greater_Idea_Mafia

[Twistedarcher]

So I had no idea we'd be picking random cards instead of actually choosing a role. Meh. That was why I wanted to play this setup [/rant]

[Axxle]

So I had no idea we'd be picking random cards instead of actually choosing a role. Meh. That was why I wanted to play this setup [/rant]

QFT

[Axxle]

So nobody has Taxman, because Andrew wasn't vigged upon reveal. I'll look at what people discared later. Looks like my Hoard turned out to be a...mafia hider? 

I just realized: Andrew is a co-mod.

[Axxle]

PPE 2: It's card of hard to analyze what people discarded because no one knew what they were.

Most? of the attack cards are scum roles and I would assume people could guess that. Those who discarded attack cards are probably? less likely to be scum and those who discarded nonattack cards are more likely? to be scum.

It's minor but maybe something to go on for now.

Welp, that's half the playerlist:
Teproc
iGin
Sp
BA?
ADK
EK
chairs
x

[Axxle]

So I had no idea we'd be picking random cards instead of actually choosing a role. Meh. That was why I wanted to play this setup [/rant]

Actually I'm glad we're not since people would've immediately lynched me, or should have in any case.

[Axxle]

Wow guys.

Post count:
Axxle: 7 (
iGin: 4
ADK: 2
Volt: 4
TA: 1
Everyone else: 0

[A Drowned Kernel]

So I had no idea we'd be picking random cards instead of actually choosing a role. Meh. That was why I wanted to play this setup [/rant]

Actually I'm glad we're not since people would've immediately lynched me, or should have in any case.

Why? For discarding mafia seer? How so?

[Axxle]

So I had no idea we'd be picking random cards instead of actually choosing a role. Meh. That was why I wanted to play this setup [/rant]

Actually I'm glad we're not since people would've immediately lynched me, or should have in any case.

Why? For discarding mafia seer? How so?

If we knew what our cards were I probably would have chosen scum, and most people know I'd do that.

[Twistedarcher]

PPE 2: It's card of hard to analyze what people discarded because no one knew what they were.

Most? of the attack cards are scum roles and I would assume people could guess that. Those who discarded attack cards are probably? less likely to be scum and those who discarded nonattack cards are more likely? to be scum.

It's minor but maybe something to go on for now.

I dunno, I discarded Trader cause it sounded lame, but I definitely didn't think it was a mafia role but it ended up being one. I don't know what we can read into it honestly, I guess what stuck out most was Xerxes discarding Young Witch (which was definitely scum). Maybe Xerxes likes town more, maybe he had two scum roles, I don't know how we're supposed to deduce which is true besides guessing?

[Twistedarcher]

So I had no idea we'd be picking random cards instead of actually choosing a role. Meh. That was why I wanted to play this setup [/rant]

Actually I'm glad we're not since people would've immediately lynched me, or should have in any case.

Why? For discarding mafia seer? How so?

If we knew what our cards were I probably would have chosen scum, and most people know I'd do that.

I'd choose town > scum, I think a lot of people would too given the choice (I am pretty sure Shraeye would, I think Voltaire would?) I think people who haven't had a scum role before are more likely to pick scum, though, which is a point against newer players (as unfair as that is)

[Twistedarcher]

There was a BM game where all scum had the option to choose VT instead of scum. Robz, Voltaire, and Chairs all elected to be scum, so that could speak to an inclination to choose scum over town.

[Axxle]

There was a BM game where all scum had the option to choose VT instead of scum. Robz, Voltaire, and Chairs all elected to be scum, so that could speak to an inclination to choose scum over town.

Really? Why didn't anyone bust that out in Philosopher's Mafia?!

I chose not to try for conversion in said game, so that show's my inclination.

I wanted a change of pace this game though, and I thought my card might have been cool if I had remembered they're all just coming from the Greater Idea Deck.

[scott_pilgrim]

I was also under the impression that we were going to know which roles we were choosing between, and not just flavor names.  But I guess I can see how that might be problematic (vote X because X likes playing scum).  But I also thought the point of Greater Idea Mafia was to eliminate RVS, but with this I'm not sure what we can get out of people's discards...

[Twistedarcher]

I was also under the impression that we were going to know which roles we were choosing between, and not just flavor names.  But I guess I can see how that might be problematic (vote X because X likes playing scum).  But I also thought the point of Greater Idea Mafia was to eliminate RVS, but with this I'm not sure what we can get out of people's discards...

Yup

[Axxle]

I was also under the impression that we were going to know which roles we were choosing between, and not just flavor names.  But I guess I can see how that might be problematic (vote X because X likes playing scum).  But I also thought the point of Greater Idea Mafia was to eliminate RVS, but with this I'm not sure what we can get out of people's discards...

That's exactly how it plays FTF, it's hilarious.

[Twistedarcher]

Vote:axxle. he likes playing scum

[Axxle]

Vote: Voltaire

[XerxesPraelor]

Slight scum read on the person who discarded Fortress: that looks like a sure take.

Also, why on earth is taxman a compulsive child killer?

[Axxle]

Slight scum read on the person who discarded Fortress: that looks like a sure take.

Also, why on earth is taxman a compulsive child killer?

Because there's no lawyer card.

BOOM!

[xeiron]

Looking over the discard pile, Axxles choice strikes me as the most interesting. He is a guy who likes playing scum, and yet chooses to discard a Mountebank, a pretty safe scumrole. He must have had a really interesting card as his other choice.

I also noticed Robz. I think it would take a great card for him to keep over the investigative-themed card scrying pool is.

[xeiron]

PPE 2: It's card of hard to analyze what people discarded because no one knew what they were.

Most? of the attack cards are scum roles and I would assume people could guess that. Those who discarded attack cards are probably? less likely to be scum and those who discarded nonattack cards are more likely? to be scum.

It's minor but maybe something to go on for now.

This could aslo go the other way. If you take a look among those who discarded attack cards, you will probably find some who had the choice between two attack cards. They must have kept one, and is probably scum as most attack-cards are scum.

On the other hand, we know that those who discarded non-attack had the choice to go for a non-attack, and therefore must have intentionally gone for the attack if they did.

Then again we probably have someone that are scum after picking a card that was not a obvious scum card (bridge, marked, doctor, etc.)

[XerxesPraelor]

I threw away envoy the last time because I didn't want to be a mailman, but it turns out it was going to be an alien thing, so I agree that some people are scum who don't want to be.

[XerxesPraelor]

I was also under the impression that we were going to know which roles we were choosing between, and not just flavor names.  But I guess I can see how that might be problematic (vote X because X likes playing scum).  But I also thought the point of Greater Idea Mafia was to eliminate RVS, but with this I'm not sure what we can get out of people's discards...

Well, we're stuck with what we've got. You can see that the cards were indicative of role, so it gives scum an out (I didn't know what I had) but still allows people to pick roles they think are cooler.

[xeiron]

Here is a list of what people disarded, sorted after allignment. I have also bolded attack cards.
As we can see, just over half discarded a non-town card, and most of them probably did not know it.

Discarded a non-town card:

Twistedarcher had a Trader
Voltaire had a Hoard
Axxle had a Mountebank
XerxesPraelor had a Young Witch

jotheonah had a Bank
chairs had a Count

Witherweaver had a Rats

Robz888 had a Scrying Pool

Nik had a Vagrant

Discarded a town card:

Ichimaru Gin had a Moat
Teproc had a Fortress
scott_pilgrim had a Forager
Beyond Awesome had an Altar
A Drowned Kernel had a Rabble
EgorK had a Navigator
xeiron had a Band of Misfits

[XerxesPraelor]

I really should have taken the young witch. Look under my name.

[Axxle]

I kept saboteur in my first run 

[xeiron]

And I would so have taken the Jester if I could.

[Teproc]

Yeah, discarding Fortress was not good. One-Shot Bulletproof is perfect forme, for some reason I thought it would be a protective role (ie Doctor variant) rather than something that actually protected me...

[Teproc]

Why do certain spots (like 15,17 etc) not have cards assigned to them ?

[xeiron]

Why do certain spots (like 15,17 etc) not have cards assigned to them ?

They have. The same cards as the number above.
There are 2 adventurers in the game (14 and 15) and 2 spys (16 and 17).

[Nik]

Vote: Volitare

[XerxesPraelor]

Yeah, discarding Fortress was not good. One-Shot Bulletproof is perfect forme, for some reason I thought it would be a protective role (ie Doctor variant) rather than something that actually protected me...

And somehow doctor is bad?!
vote: teproc

[Teproc]

Yeah, discarding Fortress was not good. One-Shot Bulletproof is perfect forme, for some reason I thought it would be a protective role (ie Doctor variant) rather than something that actually protected me...

And somehow doctor is bad?!
vote: teproc

It's not bad, it's just not a role I like. The other card seemed more likely to have a role I like.

[XerxesPraelor]

Okay. unvote I guess you probably wouldn't open yourself like that as scum.
Actually, that's the sort of thing that's easy to fake. Any evidence for that from your meta?

[XerxesPraelor]

Also, Nik. Why vote Voltaire And then just leave?

[Nik]

Also, Nik. Why vote Voltaire And then just leave?

Do you mean not give a reason? My reason is that earlier in the thread, I thought Volitare claimed he was Mafia, based on this:

I AM IN MAFIA AGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIN

Now I realize he was talking about the game Mafia, not the Mafia faction. So, Unvote.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: WW for discarding the best card in the game.

Yeah, Rats is so overpowered when it's the only card in your hand!

[A Drowned Kernel]

Am I the only one who wasn't assuming that there was a strong correlation between attack cards and scum roles? I haven't gone through and counted but it seems like there were a number of attack cards that were connected to town roles and vice-versa.

[Witherweaver]

Am I the only one who wasn't assuming that there was a strong correlation between attack cards and scum roles? I haven't gone through and counted but it seems like there were a number of attack cards that were connected to town roles and vice-versa.

I assumed there was no relation to card name and role, that it was just randomized. 

[A Drowned Kernel]

Well concerning actually reads and stuff, I'm getting a townish vibe from Axxle for his flurry of posts right at the start of the game, I think he tends to be more reserved as scum.

[Robz888]

Oh great, another game for me to not follow closely enough...

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Robz !

[chairs]

vote: robz for not paying enough attention.

[Witherweaver]

It's a wagon!  With 139 players, we only need 70 to lynch.  Vote guys!

[Axxle]

vote: robz

[AndrewisFTTW]

Vote Count 1.1

Witherweaver (1): A Drowned Kernal

Axxle (1): Twistedarcher

Teproc (1): XerxesPraelor

Robz888 (3): Witherweaver, chairs, Axxle

Not Voting (10): Voltaire, Robz888, Ichimaru Gin, Teproc, scott_pilgrim, Beyond Awesome, jotheonah, EgorK, xeiron, Nik


With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on Wed. May 21 at 11 PM FT.

[Twistedarcher]

Vote: Robz

Wants to give off an air of not caring, it's intentional

[XerxesPraelor]

Am I the only one who wasn't assuming that there was a strong correlation between attack cards and scum roles? I haven't gone through and counted but it seems like there were a number of attack cards that were connected to town roles and vice-versa.

I assumed there was no relation to card name and role, that it was just randomized. 

Why would we be given a decision then? Scum. vote: robz

[jotheonah]

Yeah, discarding Fortress was not good. One-Shot Bulletproof is perfect forme, for some reason I thought it would be a protective role (ie Doctor variant) rather than something that actually protected me...

God forbid town have a doctor! you really dodged the bullet on that one. vote: Teproc

[Teproc]

Yeah, discarding Fortress was not good. One-Shot Bulletproof is perfect forme, for some reason I thought it would be a protective role (ie Doctor variant) rather than something that actually protected me...

God forbid town have a doctor! you really dodged the bullet on that one. vote: Teproc

Doctor is really not that great, especially because I tend to die early as town and Doctor is mostly good in later days to protect claimed PRs.

[XerxesPraelor]

Also, vote: witherweaver for the scummy justification, vote: EgorK for not posting yet and because I don't recognise them, and vote: robz again because everyone else is doing it.

He explained that he doesn't like having the role doctor, which makes kind of sense. I personally think he's doing it because it gets attention and so gives him townie points for doing something risky.

PPE: 1

[jotheonah]

Wowza, 5 votes on Robz! that seems a little extreme.

[XerxesPraelor]

Yeah, discarding Fortress was not good. One-Shot Bulletproof is perfect forme, for some reason I thought it would be a protective role (ie Doctor variant) rather than something that actually protected me...

God forbid town have a doctor! you really dodged the bullet on that one. vote: Teproc

Doctor is really not that great, especially because I tend to die early as town and Doctor is mostly good in later days to protect claimed PRs.

Doctor is still great: every night without a NK is almost one more mislynch we can do before losing.

[xeiron]

Vote: robz because early wagons always stagnates, then dies and remain dead for a long time.
Robz is a great player to keep around until the endgame

[XerxesPraelor]

Wowza, 5 votes on Robz! that seems a little extreme.

He's only barely halfway to a lynch.
vote: joth I was scum and got scum points for caring too much about L's. It's not something obvious, so it's a better tell.

[scott_pilgrim]

I also noticed Robz. I think it would take a great card for him to keep over the investigative-themed card scrying pool is.

I think Robz has stated before that he likes other people to have investigative roles and use them on him, rather than being the one with the investigative role himself.  (Though, it's not like he's taking it away from anyone in this case.)

Am I the only one who wasn't assuming that there was a strong correlation between attack cards and scum roles? I haven't gone through and counted but it seems like there were a number of attack cards that were connected to town roles and vice-versa.

I assumed there was no relation to card name and role, that it was just randomized. 

This is what I had thought too.

[jotheonah]

Vote: robz because early wagons always stagnates, then dies and remain dead for a long time.
Robz is a great player to keep around until the endgame

disagree. Robz is the last person I want facing at LyLo. He's too darned hard to read.

[XerxesPraelor]

Vote: robz because early wagons always stagnates, then dies and remain dead for a long time.
Robz is a great player to keep around until the endgame

This seems weird, but also genuine. Townie points.

[Witherweaver]

Am I the only one who wasn't assuming that there was a strong correlation between attack cards and scum roles? I haven't gone through and counted but it seems like there were a number of attack cards that were connected to town roles and vice-versa.

I assumed there was no relation to card name and role, that it was just randomized. 

Why would we be given a decision then? Scum. vote: robz

Well, good point.  But I looked to find an explanation of the cards and didn't find one, and the only post Mail-Mi had was to say that cards weren't an indication of power.

[XerxesPraelor]

I also noticed Robz. I think it would take a great card for him to keep over the investigative-themed card scrying pool is.

I think Robz has stated before that he likes other people to have investigative roles and use them on him, rather than being the one with the investigative role himself.  (Though, it's not like he's taking it away from anyone in this case.)

Am I the only one who wasn't assuming that there was a strong correlation between attack cards and scum roles? I haven't gone through and counted but it seems like there were a number of attack cards that were connected to town roles and vice-versa.

I assumed there was no relation to card name and role, that it was just randomized. 

This is what I had thought too.

So, if ww is scum, I'm guessing s_p is too. You're both less likely to be scum, though, then if you were the only one.

[XerxesPraelor]

I also noticed Robz. I think it would take a great card for him to keep over the investigative-themed card scrying pool is.

I think Robz has stated before that he likes other people to have investigative roles and use them on him, rather than being the one with the investigative role himself.  (Though, it's not like he's taking it away from anyone in this case.)

Am I the only one who wasn't assuming that there was a strong correlation between attack cards and scum roles? I haven't gone through and counted but it seems like there were a number of attack cards that were connected to town roles and vice-versa.

I assumed there was no relation to card name and role, that it was just randomized. 

This is what I had thought too.

Maybe he just enjoys being an IC? It's an attack card, though, so maybe that's why he discarded it?

[XerxesPraelor]

It's a wagon!  With 139 players, we only need 70 to lynch.  Vote guys!

This has a grain of truth in it. There are sooo many people here, it'll be hard to get a lynch to actually happen.

[XerxesPraelor]

And then all of a sudden, after a flare of activity, the forums go completely silent. What happened? Also, I noticed that this is perhaps the first time I'm not lurking on Day1. Probably the lack of schoolwork

[scott_pilgrim]

And then all of a sudden, after a flare of activity, the forums go completely silent. What happened? Also, I noticed that this is perhaps the first time I'm not lurking on Day1. Probably the lack of schoolwork

Everyone who signed up for this game was expecting to skip the RVS stage, but since we didn't actually know what roles we discarded when we chose them, instead of RVS we had a "Complain about the set-up" stage.  So we still sort of skipped RVS (though I guess there is that Robz wagon), but now no one knows what to do because there haven't been many interactions.

[jotheonah]

I can't believe Robz is ignoring this fat wagon on him. He's even posting in his other game.

[Axxle]

I can't believe Robz is ignoring this fat wagon on him. He's even posting in his other game.

He clearly needs more votes on him.

[jotheonah]

Sell me on it, Axxle. what's the case?

[Axxle]

Code: [Select]

Oh great, another game for me to not follow closely enough...[size=1pt]Partners, please extend RVS as long as possible.[/size]

[Nik]

Vote:Robz888
His only post looks a little scummy, but the fact he has not responded to the constant voting on him makes me thinks he is definitely Mafia.
Robz, explanation?

[Twistedarcher]

Vote: robz because early wagons always stagnates, then dies and remain dead for a long time.
Robz is a great player to keep around until the endgame

Wait so are you voting him but you hope he doesn't get lynched?

I think he knew he'd get a lot of votes for saying that which is what he wanted.

[jotheonah]

Vote:Robz888
His only post looks a little scummy, but the fact he has not responded to the constant voting on him makes me thinks he is definitely Mafia.
Robz, explanation?

wait what. I think Mafia would have responded right away. Hell, mafia would be more invested in the game to begin with. We should call this what it is if we're doing it: LAL

[Twistedarcher]

L-2 btw. I kinda would love lynching someone this early honestly.

[Twistedarcher]

Vote:Robz888
His only post looks a little scummy, but the fact he has not responded to the constant voting on him makes me thinks he is definitely Mafia.
Robz, explanation?

wait what. I think Mafia would have responded right away. Hell, mafia would be more invested in the game to begin with. We should call this what it is if we're doing it: LAL

Oh please, do you think robz post was actually genuine? He WANTED us to know he was disinterested. If he was truly disinterested wouldn't he just not post?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Well concerning actually reads and stuff, I'm getting a townish vibe from Axxle for his flurry of posts right at the start of the game, I think he tends to be more reserved as scum.

Ditto for XP. RE Robz: So we're going with a pre-emtpive LAL lynch? That's a new one.

[Twistedarcher]

It's not that robz is disinterested its that he wanted us to know he was "disinterested".

[chairs]

I feel like Robz starts a lot of games with "meh, D1, wake me up for D2".

I also feel like this is anti-town.

Ergo, lynch all Robzes.

[xeiron]

Vote: robz because early wagons always stagnates, then dies and remain dead for a long time.
Robz is a great player to keep around until the endgame

Wait so are you voting him but you hope he doesn't get lynched?

I think he knew he'd get a lot of votes for saying that which is what he wanted.

Thats what I said, yes, but secretly, I too would love lynching someone this early.

L-2 btw. I kinda would love lynching someone this early honestly.

Still only L-3.
Xerxes did remove his vote.

[Teproc]

I feel like Robz starts a lot of games with "meh, D1, wake me up for D2".

I also feel like this is anti-town.

Ergo, lynch all Robzes.

I also feel like this is in no way indicative of Robz's alignment, or that if it is, it tends to indicate his towniness.

vote : TA

There's a reason we never lynch this early, it's because it's awful for town. This is trying to appeal for an early lynch in the "wouldn't it be cool ?" way, but it's an awful, awful idea, and TA should know this.

[Twistedarcher]

I feel like Robz starts a lot of games with "meh, D1, wake me up for D2".

I also feel like this is anti-town.

Ergo, lynch all Robzes.

I also feel like this is in no way indicative of Robz's alignment, or that if it is, it tends to indicate his towniness.

vote : TA

There's a reason we never lynch this early, it's because it's awful for town. This is trying to appeal for an early lynch in the "wouldn't it be cool ?" way, but it's an awful, awful idea, and TA should know this.

So you think we should always do things that maximize win percentage over things that are cool? Like obviously I get your point, but cool things are kinda neat too.

But seriously there's no way that Robz gets lynched today, which I disagree with. He made a HUGELY scummy post, obviously it's scummy because he got 7 different people to vote him because of 1 post, and now it's up to us to try to determine is Robz is scum or just generally disinterested? Cmon Robz can't you make it a little easier on us if you're town? Scummy posts are scummy, it shouldn't be our job to try to delve into it to see if it's actually scummy or bad town play, that should be on Robz to not make obviously scummy posts.

[Teproc]

I didn't find his post scummy at all.

And this is a normal game, which is why efficiency > cool factor. If it were RMM or bastard, sure you'd be right... which is why I don't play RMM or bastard.

I think your comment has a very real chance to motivate townies to actually go through with this lynch, and I don't think you're the kind of player who does that stuff as town (as opposed to, say, Axxle).

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. Back for a little bit. I'm a little lost already. If cards don't really speak to alignment at all--and people don't really know what they were discarding (I didn't), I don't really understand arguments based off of discarding.
Robz wagon is interesting. I have no idea what it is based on. It seems like there's still RVS going on.

[Witherweaver]

Unvote

Mine was not a real vote, and I don't think all of the votes on him are either.  Robz has been basically away and barely posting in all his games for a couple of weeks.

[Twistedarcher]

I guess I have a different mindset in this game because it's Greater Idea...I am approaching it more RMM/Bastard like the normal. It got changed to be "normalized" with the rerolls and such but it's a huge game with a lot of PRs that may not be completely balanced, so no I am not treating this like a normal game.

I wouldn't be ok lynching Robz early if I didn't think he was scum. But that post was just ridiculous scummy.

Can you explain to me how it's NOT scummy? It wasn't phrased like "Hey, sorry guys, I won't have time for this", it was phrased as "Hey guys, I'm disinterested, and I want you to know that I'm disinterested!" First one isn't scummy to me, second one is very scummy to me. Why don't you think it was scummy?

I think letting him get away with a blatantly scummy post because it's Robz and he always plays like that is stupid, in my eyes it's a scummy post, and scummy posts make the poster more likely to be scum

[Teproc]

Ok. Back for a little bit. I'm a little lost already. If cards don't really speak to alignment at all--and people don't really know what they were discarding (I didn't), I don't really understand arguments based off of discarding.
Robz wagon is interesting. I have no idea what it is based on. It seems like there's still RVS going on.

We're way out of RVS. And again, "interesting" doesn't really mean anything.

PPE : 2

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok. Back for a little bit. I'm a little lost already. If cards don't really speak to alignment at all--and people don't really know what they were discarding (I didn't), I don't really understand arguments based off of discarding.
Robz wagon is interesting. I have no idea what it is based on. It seems like there's still RVS going on.

We're way out of RVS. And again, "interesting" doesn't really mean anything.

PPE : 2

Dahh! For the record, a lot of other people use the word interesting too. Maybe I'll cut it out of my vocabularly completely, so as to avoid this. But take a look, there are already 5 uses of this word on this thread. Seriously...

Admittedly, I haven't been following things super closely, but I don't see any "real" cases right now. Furthermore, how can you make assumptions about someone's alignment based upon a decision they made in relative ignorance?
How is that supposed to somehow bypass RVS?

[Teproc]

Can you explain to me how it's NOT scummy? It wasn't phrased like "Hey, sorry guys, I won't have time for this", it was phrased as "Hey guys, I'm disinterested, and I want you to know that I'm disinterested!" First one isn't scummy to me, second one is very scummy to me. Why don't you think it was scummy?

Well, it's not clear do me why you think it is. Even more, you say it's "blatantly" scummy : obviously it isn't since at least one person doesn't think it is.

I'm not sure why scum would be so enthusiastic to tell us they're disinterested. I almost posted something similar because I'm regretting signing up for this game a little (combination of this being a little too wacky for my taste and my finals being next week), but now I'm interested again, because your comment jumped out to me as super scummy.

PPE : 1

[Witherweaver]

I guess I have a different mindset in this game because it's Greater Idea...I am approaching it more RMM/Bastard like the normal. It got changed to be "normalized" with the rerolls and such but it's a huge game with a lot of PRs that may not be completely balanced, so no I am not treating this like a normal game.

I wouldn't be ok lynching Robz early if I didn't think he was scum. But that post was just ridiculous scummy.

Can you explain to me how it's NOT scummy? It wasn't phrased like "Hey, sorry guys, I won't have time for this", it was phrased as "Hey guys, I'm disinterested, and I want you to know that I'm disinterested!" First one isn't scummy to me, second one is very scummy to me. Why don't you think it was scummy?

I think letting him get away with a blatantly scummy post because it's Robz and he always plays like that is stupid, in my eyes it's a scummy post, and scummy posts make the poster more likely to be scum

Well, he's posted about how he's VLA many times, so perhaps he thought we had already seen his posts elsewhere.  I read his post as a bit of a joke, kind of like "yeah yeah you guys know the drill.. I'm behind at these games and I suck".

[Teproc]

Ok. Back for a little bit. I'm a little lost already. If cards don't really speak to alignment at all--and people don't really know what they were discarding (I didn't), I don't really understand arguments based off of discarding.
Robz wagon is interesting. I have no idea what it is based on. It seems like there's still RVS going on.

We're way out of RVS. And again, "interesting" doesn't really mean anything.

PPE : 2

Dahh! For the record, a lot of other people use the word interesting too. Maybe I'll cut it out of my vocabularly completely, so as to avoid this. But take a look, there are already 5 uses of this word on this thread. Seriously...

Admittedly, I haven't been following things super closely, but I don't see any "real" cases right now. Furthermore, how can you make assumptions about someone's alignment based upon a decision they made in relative ignorance?
How is that supposed to somehow bypass RVS?

It's not like I'm on a crusade against the word "interesting", but your comment about the Robz wagon is basically empty content. Maybe other people are doing this as well and feel free to point them out, but I haven't particularly noticed it.

I don't think analysing the discarded cards is that interesting (heh) but I do think this Robz wagon and my incredibly awesome case on TA are enough to mean we're out of RVS.

[Twistedarcher]

Because we as a community have a track record of letting people get away with scummy behavior because "they wouldn't do that as scum"

[Teproc]

Because we as a community have a track record of letting people get away with scummy behavior because "they wouldn't do that as scum"

What matters is not identifying scummy behavior, it's identifying who is scum. If town is doing something scummy, should we feel good about lynching them for it ? Of course not, the goal of this game is to lynch scum, not lynch scummy people.

[Witherweaver]

Because we as a community have a track record of letting people get away with scummy behavior because "they wouldn't do that as scum"

What matters is not identifying scummy behavior, it's identifying who is scum. If town is doing something scummy, should we feel good about lynching them for it ? Of course not, the goal of this game is to lynch scum, not lynch scummy people.

... certainly the former is a step to the latter.

[Teproc]

Because we as a community have a track record of letting people get away with scummy behavior because "they wouldn't do that as scum"

What matters is not identifying scummy behavior, it's identifying who is scum. If town is doing something scummy, should we feel good about lynching them for it ? Of course not, the goal of this game is to lynch scum, not lynch scummy people.

... certainly the former is a step to the latter.

What I mean is there is no such thing as objectively "scummy behavior". Everything has to be put in context, and Robz saying "I don't really care about this game" might be scummy if someone else says it, but it's not scummy when Robz does it™.

[chairs]

Because we as a community have a track record of letting people get away with scummy behavior because "they wouldn't do that as scum"

What matters is not identifying scummy behavior, it's identifying who is scum. If town is doing something scummy, should we feel good about lynching them for it ? Of course not, the goal of this game is to lynch scum, not lynch scummy people.

... certainly the former is a step to the latter.

What I mean is there is no such thing as objectively "scummy behavior". Everything has to be put in context, and Robz saying "I don't really care about this game" might be scummy if someone else says it, but it's not scummy when Robz does it™.

...So you're saying Robz is IC now? 

[Ichimaru Gin]

No. Teproc just trademarked the word 'it'. You better watch out.

[Teproc]

Because we as a community have a track record of letting people get away with scummy behavior because "they wouldn't do that as scum"

What matters is not identifying scummy behavior, it's identifying who is scum. If town is doing something scummy, should we feel good about lynching them for it ? Of course not, the goal of this game is to lynch scum, not lynch scummy people.

... certainly the former is a step to the latter.

What I mean is there is no such thing as objectively "scummy behavior". Everything has to be put in context, and Robz saying "I don't really care about this game" might be scummy if someone else says it, but it's not scummy when Robz does it™.

...So you're saying Robz is IC now? 

I mean, he hasn't done a setup mistake yet, so I'll hold off on that.

[Witherweaver]

And I think TA's point here is that scum are able to hind under the WIFOM protection of being blatantly scummy (with "they wouldn't do that as scum").  So he's saying scummy behavior is indicative of actual scumminess.

PPE: Sure, our reads and interpretations are subjective.  But that's still how we go about this game.

[chairs]

But seriously, I think it's probably a null tell for Robz.  Still, D1 is more fun when we're all talking, isn't it^{TM Teproc}?


PPE: interesting!


Also I'm feeling giddy/goofy today, watch out. 

[Ichimaru Gin]

PPE: interesting!

...I knew it.

[Witherweaver]

But seriously, I think it's probably a null tell for Robz.  Still, D1 is more fun when we're all talking, isn't it^{TM Teproc}?


PPE: interesting!


Also I'm feeling giddy/goofy today, watch out. 

Are you sure the contraction does not need to be trademarked as well?

[Teproc]

PPE: interesting!

...I knew it.

By the way I Ctrl+Fed "interesting" in the last few pages and the only other instance was XP (or xeiron, one of those) using it about Axxle's choice of cards, except he elaborated, so I was not being unfair here.

[Ichimaru Gin]

PPE: interesting!

...I knew it.

By the way I Ctrl+Fed "interesting" in the last few pages and the only other instance was XP (or xeiron, one of those) using it about Axxle's choice of cards, except he elaborated, so I was not being unfair here.

No you're right. I do probably overuse that word--often without specific meaning attached.
From now on (seriously), I will make more of a conscious effort to use it only with additional explanation.  I guess I often use it when I am somewhat unsure to make of something.

[Axxle]

I don't think you're the kind of player who does that stuff as town (as opposed to, say, Axxle).

My vote *is* a real vote. Robz posted what he did for a reason. There are multiple things he could be trying to accomplish.

1) "I'm not going to be looking too closely to this game." Implying that he's setting himself up for being wrong later down the road.
2) "I'm going to lurk today." Making sure he'll at least survive the day. It's likely many of us here won't look at him critically for it either.
3) "I'm lurking EVERYWHERE, lol look at this joke I make" Meh.

I can't think of a good town motivated reason for posting it. The first is scum, the second is nulltoscum, the third is antitown (not necessarily scum).


@iGin: "Interesting" means nothing regarding alignments. Instead say something like "Seems scumdriven" or "Seems like town might have a decent case"

[AndrewisFTTW]

Vote Count 1.2

Witherweaver (1): A Drowned Kernal

Teproc (1): jotheonah

Robz888 (5): chairs, Axxle, Twistedarcher, Xeiron, Nik

Jotheonah (1): XerxesPraelor

Twistedarcher (1): Teproc

Not Voting (7): Voltaire, Robz888, Ichimaru Gin, scott_pilgrim, Beyond Awesome, EgorK, Witherweaver



With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on Wed. May 21 at 11 PM FT.

[chairs]

I feel like "interesting" is IG's desu.

[scott_pilgrim]

I think I use "interesting" to mean, I'm not sure what we can get out of this but it looks like it could tell us something, so I and other people should think about it and figure out whether it's indicative of the person's alignment.  That being said, it is pretty non-committal and leaves your options open, so I think it's bad for town players to label things as interesting and leave it at that.  On the other hand, if you're really not sure what to make of something, it's not scummy to point it out and admit that you don't know what it means (it would be scummy if someone did it a lot).

On Robz: It seems odd to me how much time has been spent analyzing his one post, though I can see why people think it's scummy.  I feel like there are still players who haven't contributed at all yet (I don't think we've heard anything from Beyond Awesome or EgorK?).

[Voltaire]

PPE 2: It's card of hard to analyze what people discarded because no one knew what they were.

Most? of the attack cards are scum roles and I would assume people could guess that. Those who discarded attack cards are probably? less likely to be scum and those who discarded nonattack cards are more likely? to be scum.

It's minor but maybe something to go on for now.

Welp, that's half the playerlist:
Teproc
iGin
Sp
BA?
ADK
EK
chairs
x

This is a fine and useful tool to start D1. I endorse it.

Note: still on page 5 of 10, catching up

[Voltaire]

PPE 2: It's card of hard to analyze what people discarded because no one knew what they were.

Most? of the attack cards are scum roles and I would assume people could guess that. Those who discarded attack cards are probably? less likely to be scum and those who discarded nonattack cards are more likely? to be scum.

It's minor but maybe something to go on for now.

I dunno, I discarded Trader cause it sounded lame, but I definitely didn't think it was a mafia role but it ended up being one. I don't know what we can read into it honestly, I guess what stuck out most was Xerxes discarding Young Witch (which was definitely scum). Maybe Xerxes likes town more, maybe he had two scum roles, I don't know how we're supposed to deduce which is true besides guessing?

Definitely depends on each player meta. Guessing seems fine. I would lean towards x being more likely town, maybe 5% more likely, based on something like that?

[Voltaire]

I'd choose town > scum, I think a lot of people would too given the choice (I am pretty sure Shraeye would, I think Voltaire would?) I think people who haven't had a scum role before are more likely to pick scum, though, which is a point against newer players (as unfair as that is)

Correct. I've gotten better at enjoying it, but I'm bad at scum and the first time I was scum I was realllllllllllly close to quitting mafia forever, it made me so miserable.

[Voltaire]

There was a BM game where all scum had the option to choose VT instead of scum. Robz, Voltaire, and Chairs all elected to be scum, so that could speak to an inclination to choose scum over town.

Oh, right! That was a BM game. I'd forgotten.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'd choose town > scum, I think a lot of people would too given the choice (I am pretty sure Shraeye would, I think Voltaire would?) I think people who haven't had a scum role before are more likely to pick scum, though, which is a point against newer players (as unfair as that is)

Correct. I've gotten better at enjoying it, but I'm bad at scum and the first time I was scum I was realllllllllllly close to quitting mafia forever, it made me so miserable.

I've only ever been scum once. I don't think I'm that great at either, but I at least enjoy playing town more I think. I think it took me a little while to get that first time game as scum out of my system--as people still found me scummy in HoC and I think only my doc claim kept me from getting lynched.

[Voltaire]

Slight scum read on the person who discarded Fortress: that looks like a sure take.

Also, why on earth is taxman a compulsive child killer?

Fortress: probably lynchproof/bulletproof, risky if you're town.

Though of course you don't know what alignment you'd be.

[Voltaire]

Also, Nik. Why vote Voltaire And then just leave?

Do you mean not give a reason? My reason is that earlier in the thread, I thought Volitare claimed he was Mafia, based on this:

I AM IN MAFIA AGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIN

Now I realize he was talking about the game Mafia, not the Mafia faction. So, Unvote.

Townread on Nik. This is exactly what happened between us in Newbie Mafia.

[Voltaire]

I'd choose town > scum, I think a lot of people would too given the choice (I am pretty sure Shraeye would, I think Voltaire would?) I think people who haven't had a scum role before are more likely to pick scum, though, which is a point against newer players (as unfair as that is)

Correct. I've gotten better at enjoying it, but I'm bad at scum and the first time I was scum I was realllllllllllly close to quitting mafia forever, it made me so miserable.

I've only ever been scum once. I don't think I'm that great at either, but I at least enjoy playing town more I think. I think it took me a little while to get that first time game as scum out of my system--as people still found me scummy in HoC and I think only my doc claim kept me from getting lynched.

My all-time favorite role and alignment is VT. I'm weird like that.

To be fair, I did win a scum MVP. That's actually really annoying.

vote: EgorK

[Nik]

The thing that is making Robz seem more and more scummier to me is that he hasn't posted anything. If he's lurking, he would at least see all the votes on him and would probably offer an explanation...but he hasn't. Is he just not paying attention?

[Voltaire]

Yeah, discarding Fortress was not good. One-Shot Bulletproof is perfect forme, for some reason I thought it would be a protective role (ie Doctor variant) rather than something that actually protected me...

God forbid town have a doctor! you really dodged the bullet on that one. vote: Teproc

I actually think doctor is usually a very weak role and more useful as a named townie.

[Voltaire]

I feel like Robz starts a lot of games with "meh, D1, wake me up for D2".

I also feel like this is anti-town.

Ergo, lynch all Robzes.

This. But also what axxle said.

vote: Robz

I do not have my normal town read on Teproc. I have a neutral read. But it's early enough I don't care.

I feel better about axxle based on read, nervous based on his discard. This is due to the recent game where he was being obviously scummy so I assumed he was town.

[scott_pilgrim]

The thing that is making Robz seem more and more scummier to me is that he hasn't posted anything. If he's lurking, he would at least see all the votes on him and would probably offer an explanation...but he hasn't. Is he just not paying attention?

I think Robz is busy with RL stuff (I think he posted in the VLA thread), so not responding to the wagon right away is expected regardless of his alignment.

[Teproc]

Oh right, Voltaire is in this game ! Hi Voltaire. Don't worry, it'll come back to you.

[Voltaire]

WW is likelier scum if Robz is town.

[Nik]

The thing that is making Robz seem more and more scummier to me is that he hasn't posted anything. If he's lurking, he would at least see all the votes on him and would probably offer an explanation...but he hasn't. Is he just not paying attention?

I think Robz is busy with RL stuff (I think he posted in the VLA thread), so not responding to the wagon right away is expected regardless of his alignment.

Oh. In that case, Unvote.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Unvote

Mine was not a real vote, and I don't think all of the votes on him are either.  Robz has been basically away and barely posting in all his games for a couple of weeks.

That's a cop-out, consider my vote on you serious.

Town read on Voltaire so far.

Looking back, TA's complaints about the setup looks a little like he got a scum role when he didn't want on. Or maybe he's just something lame like VT or Universal Miller.

I'd be fine with a Robz lynch later, he hasn't done himself any favors here. But this isn't blitz, a 24-hour day one is probably a bad idea.

[Ichimaru Gin]

But this isn't blitz, a 24-hour day one is probably a bad idea.

For sure. Even if Robz flips scum, we'll still have a dearth of interactions to analyze.
So I'd say its definitely a bad idea.

[Witherweaver]

Unvote

Mine was not a real vote, and I don't think all of the votes on him are either.  Robz has been basically away and barely posting in all his games for a couple of weeks.

That's a cop-out, consider my vote on you serious.

Town read on Voltaire so far.

Looking back, TA's complaints about the setup looks a little like he got a scum role when he didn't want on. Or maybe he's just something lame like VT or Universal Miller.

I'd be fine with a Robz lynch later, he hasn't done himself any favors here. But this isn't blitz, a 24-hour day one is probably a bad idea.

What do you mean a cop out?  That doesn't make sense.  I put an RVS vote on Robz and then everyone voted him for real, and he was getting to about L-2, so I unvotes because mine wasn't because of a scum read.

[Witherweaver]

WW is likelier scum if Robz is town.

Why?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Your vote didn't seem particularly joke-y to me, and you retracting it and claiming that it was when Robz was within lynch range is suspicious.

[Witherweaver]

Your vote didn't seem particularly joke-y to me, and you retracting it and claiming that it was when Robz was within lynch range is suspicious.

I put an exclamation point after it, and then told people to start a 70-person wagon after.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Just because someone has humorous tone to their vote doesn't mean they don't intend to follow through. Do you think Robz is town? Why?

[Witherweaver]

Just because someone has humorous tone to their vote doesn't mean they don't intend to follow through. Do you think Robz is town? Why?

I don't think his post indicates alignment one way or the other.  And I do not think "hey let's  quicklynch Robz for funsies" is a sensible strategy.

If people really do think he's scum from his post, fine, but I don't.

[jotheonah]

Vote: TA

I'm admittiedly a little drunk, but I feel like Teproc is talking sense.

[Axxle]

Vote: TA

Now we're getting somewhere!

[xeiron]

I believe Axxle is our best bet for hitting scum today.

-He likes to play scum.
-He claimed to to pick the scummy card in the first draft.
-He had at least one scummy card to choose from in the second draft.

Vote: Axxle

[Axxle]

I believe Axxle is our best bet for hitting scum today.

-He likes to play scum.
-He claimed to to pick the scummy card in the first draft.
-He had at least one scummy card to choose from in the second draft.

Vote: Axxle

Yeah but no.

[Voltaire]

Mmmmmmm I want to vote for all the "big" wagons!

[Witherweaver]

I believe Axxle is our best bet for hitting scum today.

-He likes to play scum.
-He claimed to to pick the scummy card in the first draft.
-He had at least one scummy card to choose from in the second draft.

Vote: Axxle

I think this is the most compelling thing so far.  Axxle was also the first to bring up "discarding Attack cards make you less likely to be scum":

PPE 2: It's card of hard to analyze what people discarded because no one knew what they were.

Most? of the attack cards are scum roles and I would assume people could guess that. Those who discarded attack cards are probably? less likely to be scum and those who discarded nonattack cards are more likely? to be scum.

It's minor but maybe something to go on for now.

And he pointed out without prompting that he discarded an attack card the first time.

Vote: Axxle

[Twistedarcher]

Well I kinda want to wagon Axxle, but I have a town read on him thus far.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Well I kinda want to wagon Axxle, but I have a town read on him thus far.

Why would you even consider wagoning him if you have a town read on him?
Just for fun?

[Witherweaver]

Well I kinda want to wagon Axxle, but I have a town read on him thus far.

Why would you even consider wagoning him if you have a town read on him?
Just for fun?

Yes, this.  Or perhaps to detract suspicion of being so gung-ho about the Robz wagon.  If wagoning is just something he likes, then the eagerness to lynch Robz on the first actual day is not an alignment tell.

[Twistedarcher]

Well I kinda want to wagon Axxle, but I have a town read on him thus far.

Why would you even consider wagoning him if you have a town read on him?
Just for fun?

I'd consider voting him to join the wagon, except I have a town read on him, so I'm not going to. Isn't that what I just said?

[Witherweaver]

Well I kinda want to wagon Axxle, but I have a town read on him thus far.

Why would you even consider wagoning him if you have a town read on him?
Just for fun?

I'd consider voting him to join the wagon, except I have a town read on him, so I'm not going to. Isn't that what I just said?

Isn't that not what he asked? 

[Teproc]

Well I kinda want to wagon Axxle, but I have a town read on him thus far.

Why would you even consider wagoning him if you have a town read on him?
Just for fun?

I'd consider voting him to join the wagon, except I have a town read on him, so I'm not going to. Isn't that what I just said?

Isn't that not what he asked? 

I see we're deliberately trying to sow confusion by using double negation...

TA's position makes sense here : wagons are good, they create interactions, make votes meaningful etc.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Well I kinda want to wagon Axxle, but I have a town read on him thus far.

Why would you even consider wagoning him if you have a town read on him?
Just for fun?

I'd consider voting him to join the wagon, except I have a town read on him, so I'm not going to. Isn't that what I just said?

Isn't that not what he asked? 

I see we're deliberately trying to sow confusion by using double negation...

TA's position makes sense here : wagons are good, they create interactions, make votes meaningful etc.

Sure wagons are good. But joining one just to join when you don't really think the person is scummy is in itself a scummy behavior.
If you're town, wagons give you good material to analyze. But it seems counterproductive to join one just for the sake of joining it.

[Witherweaver]

Well I kinda want to wagon Axxle, but I have a town read on him thus far.

Why would you even consider wagoning him if you have a town read on him?
Just for fun?

I'd consider voting him to join the wagon, except I have a town read on him, so I'm not going to. Isn't that what I just said?

Isn't that not what he asked? 

I see we're deliberately trying to sow confusion by using double negation...

TA's position makes sense here : wagons are good, they create interactions, make votes meaningful etc.

But it seems like it should be: hey, I think this person might be scum, so I should therefore vote for them.  Not: hey, there is a wagon on this person, so I should vote unless I can convince myself of a town read.

[Witherweaver]

But more to the point, why is TA pointing out to us that he would want to vote for the sake of being on a wagon in the first place?  He could have simply stated that he doesn't agree with the votes and has a town read on Axxle.

[Teproc]

But more to the point, why is TA pointing out to us that he would want to vote for the sake of being on a wagon in the first place?  He could have simply stated that he doesn't agree with the votes and has a town read on Axxle.

This I agree with. Feels like TA feels like he has to justify the way he's playing, which is scummy.

[Twistedarcher]

I don't get the confusion, I have a town read on him so I'm not voting him, if I didn't have a town read on him I'd consider joining the wagon, what's unclear/confusing about that? You can ask me for clarification but when the original statement is clear you aren't gonna get anything by asking for repeated clarifications.

[Ichimaru Gin]

But more to the point, why is TA pointing out to us that he would want to vote for the sake of being on a wagon in the first place?  He could have simply stated that he doesn't agree with the votes and has a town read on Axxle.

Exactly. It's this. "I feel one way, but I'm not going to actually follow through on it". Hedging/covering yourself that reads scummy to me.

PPE: 2

[Twistedarcher]

But more to the point, why is TA pointing out to us that he would want to vote for the sake of being on a wagon in the first place?  He could have simply stated that he doesn't agree with the votes and has a town read on Axxle.

Because I like wagons? I understand your point on wagons but I disagree with it.

Re: Teproc, people ask questions I answer. It's ridiculous to ask someone a question asking for further justification, and then call that person scummy because "they needed to justify what they were doing"

[Twistedarcher]

But more to the point, why is TA pointing out to us that he would want to vote for the sake of being on a wagon in the first place?  He could have simply stated that he doesn't agree with the votes and has a town read on Axxle.

Exactly. It's this. "I feel one way, but I'm not going to actually follow through on it". Hedging/covering yourself that reads scummy to me.

PPE: 2

K cool.

[Teproc]

But more to the point, why is TA pointing out to us that he would want to vote for the sake of being on a wagon in the first place?  He could have simply stated that he doesn't agree with the votes and has a town read on Axxle.

Because I like wagons? I understand your point on wagons but I disagree with it.

Re: Teproc, people ask questions I answer. It's ridiculous to ask someone a question asking for further justification, and then call that person scummy because "they needed to justify what they were doing"

I wasn't referring to the answers you gave, but to the original statement. You felt the need to say that you were tempted to get on a wagon, but didn't want to because you had a town read. That was not in answer to any unnecessary request for clarification.

[Witherweaver]

But more to the point, why is TA pointing out to us that he would want to vote for the sake of being on a wagon in the first place?  He could have simply stated that he doesn't agree with the votes and has a town read on Axxle.

Because I like wagons? I understand your point on wagons but I disagree with it.

Re: Teproc, people ask questions I answer. It's ridiculous to ask someone a question asking for further justification, and then call that person scummy because "they needed to justify what they were doing"

No one asked you about Axxle, you brought up your enjoyment of wagons and your read of Axxle unprompted.  (in case it's unclear, I'm referring to this post:

Well I kinda want to wagon Axxle, but I have a town read on him thus far.

That serves as a justification of your eagerness to have a big Robz wagon, which is what Teproc was referring to as your "scummy" play.

PPE: Teproc said it too

[Twistedarcher]

Right, I like wagons, and I'd like to have one on Axxle, BUT, I think he's town, so I don't want to vote him. Oh look, this is the exact same thing I said

[Teproc]

Right, I like wagons, and I'd like to have one on Axxle, BUT, I think he's town, so I don't want to vote him. Oh look, this is the exact same thing I said

What ? I get the feeling that you're not reading the same thread. I'm saying that you're scummy (among other things) for feeling the need to express this, not disagreeing with the sentiment itself.

[Twistedarcher]

I'm talking more to Ichi and WW, who both immediately quoted the post and said it was scummy that I wanted a wagon on Axxle even though I think he's town (which isn't what I was saying). I'm fine with your vote although you are obviously wrong

[Ichimaru Gin]

Right, I like wagons, and I'd like to have one on Axxle, BUT, I think he's town, so I don't want to vote him. Oh look, this is the exact same thing I said

What ? I get the feeling that you're not reading the same thread. I'm saying that you're scummy (among other things) for feeling the need to express this, not disagreeing with the sentiment itself.

I agree with this. I don't really see why town would post something like that.

[Twistedarcher]

Sorry for being conversational in my posts? Like, if this game turns into only stating facts and opinions and reads, it becomes not fun pretty quickly.

[scott_pilgrim]

I think everyone who's jumping all over TA for that post is being silly...he's scum because he stated his thought process without being asked?  That's something town should do.  If everyone just stayed silent all game unless prompted by another player, things would be super slow and we would never get anywhere.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I think everyone who's jumping all over TA for that post is being silly...he's scum because he stated his thought process without being asked?  That's something town should do.  If everyone just stayed silent all game unless prompted by another player, things would be super slow and we would never get anywhere.

I'm not saying he's scum. Just that I don't see much of a town rational behind what he posted.
I don't think anyone is advocating being silent, or playing a game with only impassive logical statements.
But why did TA post what he did? By the way, I know absolutely nothing about his meta. How long has he been playing?

[Witherweaver]

I'm talking more to Ichi and WW, who both immediately quoted the post and said it was scummy that I wanted a wagon on Axxle even though I think he's town (which isn't what I was saying). I'm fine with your vote although you are obviously wrong

That's not what I said.

[Twistedarcher]

I think everyone who's jumping all over TA for that post is being silly...he's scum because he stated his thought process without being asked?  That's something town should do.  If everyone just stayed silent all game unless prompted by another player, things would be super slow and we would never get anywhere.

I'm not saying he's scum. Just that I don't see much of a town rational behind what he posted.

Hey, I like wagons, so if I didn't have a town read on Axxle I'd probably vote him here. But, I DO have a town read on Axxle, so I'm not voting here.

Why could that not come from town? Why does this need to be a scum thought pattern?

[scott_pilgrim]

I think everyone who's jumping all over TA for that post is being silly...he's scum because he stated his thought process without being asked?  That's something town should do.  If everyone just stayed silent all game unless prompted by another player, things would be super slow and we would never get anywhere.

I'm not saying he's scum. Just that I don't see much of a town rational behind what he posted.
I don't think anyone is advocating being silent, or playing a game with only impassive logical statements.
But why did TA post what he did? By the way, I know absolutely nothing about his meta. How long has he been playing?

I mean, I guess I'm saying in general, town should be as transparent as possible, just post whatever you're thinking all the time (relevant to the game of course, you don't need to tell us what you're eating for dinner tonight (but you can if you want)).  If town does this, then we can either pick out scum by the fact that they're not as open as town, or by identifying slips or things that look scummy.  So I'm saying, if the case on TA is that he gave us more information than he needed to, I think that would be towny, not scummy, because it means he's just saying whatever he's thinking at the time.

[Witherweaver]

I think everyone who's jumping all over TA for that post is being silly...he's scum because he stated his thought process without being asked?  That's something town should do.  If everyone just stayed silent all game unless prompted by another player, things would be super slow and we would never get anywhere.

The issue here is that it was relevant to how he has been playing, but on a different topic.  He was under suspicion by Teproc (and possibly more) of his play regarding Robz.  When I read his post my thought was "what?  Why would he say that?" And then it occurred to me that he's subtlely putting the idea out there that: "TA likes wagons. So we shouldn't ready anything into his Robz wagon, because that's an alignment-neutral TA characteristic".

So that's what makes it suspcious here.

[Teproc]

I mean, I guess I'm saying in general, town should be as transparent as possible, just post whatever you're thinking all the time (relevant to the game of course, you don't need to tell us what you're eating for dinner tonight (but you can if you want)).  If town does this, then we can either pick out scum by the fact that they're not as open as town, or by identifying slips or things that look scummy.

I strongly disagree.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Vote Count 1.3:


Witherweaver (1): A Drowned Kernal

Robz888 (3): chairs, Twistedarcher, Voltaire

Jotheonah (1): XerxesPraelor

Twistedarcher (3): Teproc, jotheonah, Axxle

Axxle (2): Xeiron, Witherweaver

Not Voting (6): Robz888, Ichimaru Gin, scott_pilgrim, Beyond Awesome, EgorK, Nik


With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on Wed. May 21 at 11 PM FT.

[scott_pilgrim]

I mean, I guess I'm saying in general, town should be as transparent as possible, just post whatever you're thinking all the time (relevant to the game of course, you don't need to tell us what you're eating for dinner tonight (but you can if you want)).  If town does this, then we can either pick out scum by the fact that they're not as open as town, or by identifying slips or things that look scummy.

I strongly disagree.

Do you want to explain?  I mean, that is the impression I've gotten from better players over the several games that I've played.  I admit that I don't actually play like that as town, I actually do think a lot about what I'm saying, double check to make sure I haven't said anything that could misconstrued as scummy, and avoid giving reads on players without being prompted, but I've been trying to break myself of those things because it seems like people think that kind of play is bad for town (and I understand the reasoning for thinking that).

You might have other reasons for voting TA, that's fine (I think WW's explanation makes more sense), I'm just saying that I don't think an argument like "TA is scummy because he gave us some information about his thought process that he could have withheld" is reasonable.

[Teproc]

I mean, I guess I'm saying in general, town should be as transparent as possible, just post whatever you're thinking all the time (relevant to the game of course, you don't need to tell us what you're eating for dinner tonight (but you can if you want)).  If town does this, then we can either pick out scum by the fact that they're not as open as town, or by identifying slips or things that look scummy.

I strongly disagree.

Do you want to explain?  I mean, that is the impression I've gotten from better players over the several games that I've played.  I admit that I don't actually play like that as town, I actually do think a lot about what I'm saying, double check to make sure I haven't said anything that could misconstrued as scummy, and avoid giving reads on players without being prompted, but I've been trying to break myself of those things because it seems like people think that kind of play is bad for town (and I understand the reasoning for thinking that).

You might have other reasons for voting TA, that's fine (I think WW's explanation makes more sense), I'm just saying that I don't think an argument like "TA is scummy because he gave us some information about his thought process that he could have withheld" is reasonable.

I was making a point by not explaining why I disagreed precisely because it made you explain your position further. Not particularly useful here because this is pretty much theory talk, but you get the point.

Also it's a lot easier for scum to manipulate you if they know exactly what you're thinking.

[Voltaire]

I don't get the confusion, I have a town read on him so I'm not voting him, if I didn't have a town read on him I'd consider joining the wagon, what's unclear/confusing about that? You can ask me for clarification but when the original statement is clear you aren't gonna get anything by asking for repeated clarifications.

The confusing thing is that it seems unnecessary to point out the second part.

I also think I need to back off several of my reads, as they are on active players. I got rusty.

Mild scum read on s_p who I think has only popped in to state obvious things.

I mean, I guess I'm saying in general, town should be as transparent as possible, just post whatever you're thinking all the time (relevant to the game of course, you don't need to tell us what you're eating for dinner tonight (but you can if you want)).  If town does this, then we can either pick out scum by the fact that they're not as open as town, or by identifying slips or things that look scummy.

I strongly disagree.

Really? This is just another side of the "everyone should post a lot, scum will hang themselves if we give them enough rope" idea. I get that this can easily turn into thread spam, but that's a small, non-crippling flaw to work around.

[Axxle]

Unvote

TA seems town here, I'll probably have to reread to see who's coming out scummiest in this interaction.

[Axxle]

I think everyone who's jumping all over TA for that post is being silly...he's scum because he stated his thought process without being asked?  That's something town should do.  If everyone just stayed silent all game unless prompted by another player, things would be super slow and we would never get anywhere.

I'm not saying he's scum. Just that I don't see much of a town rational behind what he posted.

Hey, I like wagons, so if I didn't have a town read on Axxle I'd probably vote him here. But, I DO have a town read on Axxle, so I'm not voting here.

Why could that not come from town? Why does this need to be a scum thought pattern?

Sometimes it's good to wagon on your townreads to verify things. Scientific method: Try to disprove your hypotheses rather than affirm them.

[Voltaire]

vote: axxle for what WW said.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Wait, so what's the case on Axxle? That he admitted that he was hoping for scum from his pick and that he talked about the connection between attack cards and scum roles?

[Voltaire]

Wait, so what's the case on Axxle? That he admitted that he was hoping for scum from his pick and that he talked about the connection between attack cards and scum roles?

Yes, while not mentioning how it affected him. Normally I would think that this is not a scum trait because it is so obviously, but axxle fooled me like this last time.

Here's WW's original post:

I believe Axxle is our best bet for hitting scum today.

-He likes to play scum.
-He claimed to to pick the scummy card in the first draft.
-He had at least one scummy card to choose from in the second draft.

Vote: Axxle

I think this is the most compelling thing so far.  Axxle was also the first to bring up "discarding Attack cards make you less likely to be scum":

PPE 2: It's card of hard to analyze what people discarded because no one knew what they were.

Most? of the attack cards are scum roles and I would assume people could guess that. Those who discarded attack cards are probably? less likely to be scum and those who discarded nonattack cards are more likely? to be scum.

It's minor but maybe something to go on for now.

And he pointed out without prompting that he discarded an attack card the first time.

Vote: Axxle

[A Drowned Kernel]

I guess I can see the reasoning there. I had initially read his high amount of activity at the beginning of the games as towny but looking it over there's a sort of nervous energy in his posts. Vote: Axxle

Also, request prod on EgorK

[Voltaire]

The more I think about it the more I think this is the very specific situation where a D1 lynch based on meta is good.

[Teproc]

The more I think about it the more I think this is the very specific situation where a D1 lynch based on meta is good.

Yeah. I hate this, but it's true.

[Teproc]

Since we're prodding newbies : request a prod on Beyond Awesome.

[Nik]

VUnvote. Vote: Axxle

[Nik]

Sorry, I made a typo. Unvote. Vote: Axxle

[Voltaire]

You can just vote for the new person, fyi. That's enough to switch your vote.

[Twistedarcher]

I'd be all for joining the Axxle wagon, but I think he's town here, so I'm not going to vote him.

[Axxle]

Vote: Nik

I get a scummy "If I do what the rest of the town does they'll think I'm town!" vibe from him.

[Axxle]

I'd be all for joining the Axxle wagon, but I think he's town here, so I'm not going to vote him.

You *should* join my wagon! As in the wagon that I just started on Nik.

[Nik]

Vote: Nik

I get a scummy "If I do what the rest of the town does they'll think I'm town!" vibe from him.

No, I do actaully think you're scum, for the reasons Xeiron described.

[Axxle]

Vote: Nik

I get a scummy "If I do what the rest of the town does they'll think I'm town!" vibe from him.

No, I do actaully think you're scum, for the reasons Xeiron described.

I got that feeling with your Robz vote too.

(P.S. here's the link to the list of roles and the cards they correspond with: https://docs.google.com/document/d/13g_JHb8dAMRpSN9-ndteSvH2NE8w_4GmJV-Wr_jJLqQ/edit?usp=sharing)

@mod: can you add this to the OP?

[Axxle]

Nik, can you get an avatar? It'll make it easier for people to associate posts with you. Suggestion:

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hey hey! Axxle's original avatar is back! 

[Ichimaru Gin]

Could we get a vote count? Because I'm somewhat lost. This is a big game, and it seems like a fair number of people haven't even showed up yet.

[Axxle]

Unofficial Vote Count 1.3a:

Robz888 (2): chairs, Twistedarcher

Jotheonah (1): XerxesPraelor

Twistedarcher (3): Teproc, jotheonah

Axxle (5): Xeiron, Witherweaver, Voltaire, A Drowned Kernal, Nik

Nik (1): Axxle

Not Voting (5): Robz888, Ichimaru Gin, scott_pilgrim, Beyond Awesome, EgorK


With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: Nik

I get a scummy "If I do what the rest of the town does they'll think I'm town!" vibe from him.

Do you think that all/most of the other people voting for you are town?

[Axxle]

Vote: Nik

I get a scummy "If I do what the rest of the town does they'll think I'm town!" vibe from him.

Do you think that all/most of the other people voting for you are town?

I'd guess there are... 1.8 scum on my wagon.

[Axxle]

(In a vacuum)

I'll have to reread to discern motivation of persons.

[scott_pilgrim]

I agree with Axxle that it really looks like Nik is just hopping on the most popular wagons he sees, which is easy for scum to do.  I don't think I've played with Nik before, but I kinda followed along HoC and remember him doing things I wouldn't expect from town there, so maybe it's just his play style.  But even then, at best it's town playing in a way that doesn't benefit town, and at worst it's really scummy.

vote: Nik

[Ichimaru Gin]

I agree with Axxle that it really looks like Nik is just hopping on the most popular wagons he sees, which is easy for scum to do.  I don't think I've played with Nik before, but I kinda followed along HoC and remember him doing things I wouldn't expect from town there, so maybe it's just his play style.  But even then, at best it's town playing in a way that doesn't benefit town, and at worst it's really scummy.

vote: Nik

Mmm. I was in HoC and found Nik pretty scummy in that, and I ended up mislynching him against Voltaire's reads--something that kind of screwed town over. However, I haven't really seen Nik ever get much suspicion in the games I've played in with him (2, I think). I think he deserves a little pressure, if at least, to start acting a little more townie if he's town.
vote: Nik

[Twistedarcher]

I agree with Axxle that it really looks like Nik is just hopping on the most popular wagons he sees, which is easy for scum to do.  I don't think I've played with Nik before, but I kinda followed along HoC and remember him doing things I wouldn't expect from town there, so maybe it's just his play style.  But even then, at best it's town playing in a way that doesn't benefit town, and at worst it's really scummy.

vote: Nik

Mmm. I was in HoC and found Nik pretty scummy in that, and I ended up mislynching him against Voltaire's reads--something that kind of screwed town over. However, I haven't really seen Nik ever get much suspicion in the games I've played in with him (2, I think). I think he deserves a little pressure, if at least, to start acting a little more townie if he's town.
vote: Nik

This says absolutely nothing about his play this game. Very little content or analysis.

vote:ichi

[Ichimaru Gin]

I agree with Axxle that it really looks like Nik is just hopping on the most popular wagons he sees, which is easy for scum to do.  I don't think I've played with Nik before, but I kinda followed along HoC and remember him doing things I wouldn't expect from town there, so maybe it's just his play style.  But even then, at best it's town playing in a way that doesn't benefit town, and at worst it's really scummy.

vote: Nik

Mmm. I was in HoC and found Nik pretty scummy in that, and I ended up mislynching him against Voltaire's reads--something that kind of screwed town over. However, I haven't really seen Nik ever get much suspicion in the games I've played in with him (2, I think). I think he deserves a little pressure, if at least, to start acting a little more townie if he's town.
vote: Nik

This says absolutely nothing about his play this game. Very little content or analysis.

vote:ichi

Hmm. Looks like OMGUS to me.
Anyway, I think I explained my vote on Nik fairly well. I believe he deserves some pressure. He's acting about the same in this game as he ever has (mildly scummy), and I think his wagon can give us some useful information. Why do you have a problem with this?

[Ichimaru Gin]

I agree with Axxle that it really looks like Nik is just hopping on the most popular wagons he sees, which is easy for scum to do.  I don't think I've played with Nik before, but I kinda followed along HoC and remember him doing things I wouldn't expect from town there, so maybe it's just his play style.  But even then, at best it's town playing in a way that doesn't benefit town, and at worst it's really scummy.

vote: Nik

Mmm. I was in HoC and found Nik pretty scummy in that, and I ended up mislynching him against Voltaire's reads--something that kind of screwed town over. However, I haven't really seen Nik ever get much suspicion in the games I've played in with him (2, I think). I think he deserves a little pressure, if at least, to start acting a little more townie if he's town.
vote: Nik

This says absolutely nothing about his play this game. Very little content or analysis.

vote:ichi

Seriously. This post just reads vindictive to me. Look, sorry if I offended you. I was just expressing my opinion about what you posted.

[EgorK]

Sorry, guys

Was tied up at work. Reading now

[Twistedarcher]

Don't worry ichi you didn't offend me at all. Very sorry if it came off that way!

I just think your post doesnt reference niks behavior this game at all, which I found scummy.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Don't worry ichi you didn't offend me at all. Very sorry if it came off that way!

I just think your post doesnt reference niks behavior this game at all, which I found scummy.

Ok. Thanks. Yeah no hard feelings, I guess I misinterpreted the motivation behind what you said.

Yeah, my vote on him is mostly a meta-thing. So you were right in what you said, although I don't see why my behavior is scummy.
I've had a huge argument about motivation behind votes before, but it's my belief that votes should be used to pressure people (even if you only feel they're mildly scummy, as I feel about him now). I want to see a little more reaction from Nik, that's all. Though from what I've seen in the past, I'm not even sure if that will tell us much. He's really hard for me to read.

[EgorK]

After reading so far what stands out most is Axxle - he claims selecting attack in first draw, says that people discarding attacks are more likely to be town, and he did discarded attack.

So for now Vote:Axxle

[Teproc]

I think TA's reaction to the wagon is townie. I let my vote linger a bit but nothing is happening there anyway, so let's unvote

Nik seems to be playing the same game as in HoC... which he shouldn't, it got him mislynched there, but you know.

People on the Axxle wagon : is there anything based on play to this case ? Because I'm not a big fan of lynching purely based on meta, even though the setup does encourage it.

[Witherweaver]

I think TA's reaction to the wagon is townie. I let my vote linger a bit but nothing is happening there anyway, so let's unvote

Nik seems to be playing the same game as in HoC... which he shouldn't, it got him mislynched there, but you know.

People on the Axxle wagon : is there anything based on play to this case ? Because I'm not a big fan of lynching purely based on meta, even though the setup does encourage it.

Read his first couple pages of posts.  That he bright the idea up is what makes me think there is something to it.

[XerxesPraelor]

After reading so far what stands out most is Axxle - he claims selecting attack in first draw, says that people discarding attacks are more likely to be town, and he did discarded attack.

So for now Vote:Axxle

I think that's a good point; also, thanks for posting.

Although I still think joth is the scummiest person here, I guess I'll vote: Axxle

[XerxesPraelor]

I might post a case in a bit.

[XerxesPraelor]

Yeah, discarding Fortress was not good. One-Shot Bulletproof is perfect forme, for some reason I thought it would be a protective role (ie Doctor variant) rather than something that actually protected me...

God forbid town have a doctor! you really dodged the bullet on that one. vote: Teproc

This is exactly what I previously said, and adds nothing to the discussion. Also, "town", not "we". It's pretty much a completely safe thing to say, that isn't very useful.

Wowza, 5 votes on Robz! that seems a little extreme.

He's only barely halfway to a lynch.
vote: joth I was scum and got scum points for caring too much about L's. It's not something obvious, so it's a better tell.

Also, this.

Vote:Robz888
His only post looks a little scummy, but the fact he has not responded to the constant voting on him makes me thinks he is definitely Mafia.
Robz, explanation?

wait what. I think Mafia would have responded right away. Hell, mafia would be more invested in the game to begin with. We should call this what it is if we're doing it: LAL

Making this sort of presumptions about what scum would or would not choose to do is bad reasoning that helps scum. This post is the sort of thing that scum would post about either town or scum, so that in the first place, the idea that it's LAL means that it's harder to analyze the wagon, and if it's scum, makes people think it's more likely that the wagon will fizzle off once people develop stronger reads, which makes robz less likely to be lynched.

Sell me on it, Axxle. what's the case?

Lastly, this sort of question feels gut scummy to me. Pretending objectivity, but then getting the flexibility means that scum doesn't need to precommit.

[EgorK]

FYI: Axxle is at L-2 now

[xeiron]

I agree with Axxle that it really looks like Nik is just hopping on the most popular wagons he sees, which is easy for scum to do.  I don't think I've played with Nik before, but I kinda followed along HoC and remember him doing things I wouldn't expect from town there, so maybe it's just his play style.  But even then, at best it's town playing in a way that doesn't benefit town, and at worst it's really scummy.

vote: Nik

Mmm. I was in HoC and found Nik pretty scummy in that, and I ended up mislynching him against Voltaire's reads--something that kind of screwed town over. However, I haven't really seen Nik ever get much suspicion in the games I've played in with him (2, I think). I think he deserves a little pressure, if at least, to start acting a little more townie if he's town.
vote: Nik

Ichimaru, Do you think saying "I do not really suspect Nik, but votes to put pressure on him" is the best way to put pressure on Nik?

[Ichimaru Gin]

I agree with Axxle that it really looks like Nik is just hopping on the most popular wagons he sees, which is easy for scum to do.  I don't think I've played with Nik before, but I kinda followed along HoC and remember him doing things I wouldn't expect from town there, so maybe it's just his play style.  But even then, at best it's town playing in a way that doesn't benefit town, and at worst it's really scummy.

vote: Nik

Mmm. I was in HoC and found Nik pretty scummy in that, and I ended up mislynching him against Voltaire's reads--something that kind of screwed town over. However, I haven't really seen Nik ever get much suspicion in the games I've played in with him (2, I think). I think he deserves a little pressure, if at least, to start acting a little more townie if he's town.
vote: Nik

Ichimaru, Do you think saying "I do not really suspect Nik, but votes to put pressure on him" is the best way to put pressure on Nik?

Yeah you're right, it doesn't come off as very serious does it.
My vote on him is real though. I think he would be an ok lynch at this point. Even one serious vote probably wouldn't get much of a reaction, but more will. I just feel like Nik acts scummy as town (which is all I've ever seen him as), yet he would probably do similar things as scum. At any rate, we need town players to act like town. Someone with a town-meta of acting scummy is not what we want.

[Twistedarcher]

What has nik done this game that's scummy?

[Nik]

What has nik done this game that's scummy?

I believe it was jumping on the Axxle wagon.

[Ichimaru Gin]

What has nik done this game that's scummy?

Axxle made a good point in Nik just sheeping town.

I AM IN MAFIA AGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIN

Now I realize he was talking about the game Mafia, not the Mafia faction. So, Unvote.
[/quote]

Also, this post just seems odd. Like scum!Voltaire is going to scream that he is mafia?

PPE: Nik

[Ichimaru Gin]

Oops. Messed up some quotes there.

Also, Nik. Why vote Voltaire And then just leave?

Do you mean not give a reason? My reason is that earlier in the thread, I thought Volitare claimed he was Mafia, based on this:

I AM IN MAFIA AGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIN

Now I realize he was talking about the game Mafia, not the Mafia faction. So, Unvote.

This is the proper quotation.

[Ichimaru Gin]

crap. That bolded unvote may count for me.
vote: Nik

[Robz888]

Yo guys. What's up.

[Robz888]

Woah. There are a LOT of people in this game.

[A Drowned Kernel]

What has nik done this game that's scummy?

Axxle made a good point in Nik just sheeping town.

Again, what's with the assumption that people Nik is sheeping are all town?

[Axxle]

What has nik done this game that's scummy?

Axxle made a good point in Nik just sheeping town.

Again, what's with the assumption that people Nik is sheeping are all town?

It's a failure of language. Town as in people in this game, not the faction.

[Voltaire]

The wagon on Nik is insane. I still like an Axxle wagon, but if that doesn't happen I feel like there has to be scum amongst the Nik voters and I would look there.

[Ichimaru Gin]

The wagon on Nik is insane. I still like an Axxle wagon, but if that doesn't happen I feel like there has to be scum amongst the Nik voters and I would look there.

Is there even a wagon on Nik?
Oh, wait. I guess there are 3? people voting for him. Well this is consistent with the way you've generally read him. But don't you think his play is scummy? I mean, we've never seen Nik as scum before, but his town play is scummy enough...I'm not sure what it would look like. Don't you agree that it's bad when town looks like scum?

[Voltaire]

Don't you agree that it's bad when town looks like scum?

Yes, but this is Nik's second game, right? There is a different between new town and scum. They can look similar, but telling the difference is my one specialty.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Don't you agree that it's bad when town looks like scum?

Yes, but this is Nik's second game, right? There is a different between new town and scum. They can look similar, but telling the difference is my one specialty.

Well...considering the mistake I made in HoC, and I do trust your reads. I'd say for now I'll give Nik the benefit of the doubt.
unvote

[Teproc]

Don't you agree that it's bad when town looks like scum?

It's not that I disagree, it's just that it's completely beside the point. The point is to find scum, not to teach people how to play the game. Voting for Nik because you find his town play to be anti-town is basically a policy vote, which are bad because you need to be playing for you wincon THIS game, not for future games.

That being said, I don't find the mini-wagon on Nik scummy. How many games has he been in ? HoC and that's it right ? Unless he is in the BM game but that's ongoing so no one can comment on it anyway. WHich means not that many people have played with him.

[Witherweaver]

I'm completely null on Nik.  I don't think there's anything to indicate that he's any more likely to be town/scum than whatever the unmodified probability is.

Teproc does have a point.  We want to play to win this game and not to make players better.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Don't you agree that it's bad when town looks like scum?

It's not that I disagree, it's just that it's completely beside the point. The point is to find scum, not to teach people how to play the game. Voting for Nik because you find his town play to be anti-town is basically a policy vote, which are bad because you need to be playing for you wincon THIS game, not for future games.

That being said, I don't find the mini-wagon on Nik scummy. How many games has he been in ? HoC and that's it right ? Unless he is in the BM game but that's ongoing so no one can comment on it anyway. WHich means not that many people have played with him.

I'm completely null on Nik.  I don't think there's anything to indicate that he's any more likely to be town/scum than whatever the unmodified probability is.

Teproc does have a point.  We want to play to win this game and not to make players better.

Yeah. It probably wasn't the most productive thing. But hey, I'm not that experienced myself.
At any rate, it doesn't seem like much interaction surrounding this issue tells us much.

Hmm. Having never played a game with this many players, it's a different sort of experience. I seem to remember some sort of conversation like this in a game I was following. And I think people found the person asking it scummy, I'm gonna ask it anyway though.

With, what 16 people in the game, does the scumteam scale up in size? Like are we likely looking at a 4 person team, or is that not something we can determine?

[Witherweaver]

I like Axxle, and TA as well, in that order.

What Xerxes said about Joth was interesting (^TM ), but I haven't had a chance to go back and read and really think about it.

Also a bit unsure about the "failure of language" comment.  Is that saying that English isn't a first language, or that you just misspoke?  (This is directed to Axxle.)

[Witherweaver]

@Ichi: The alignments were chosen with the roles.. mail-mi posted all the possible ones.  We only know that there is a check on balance. (We rerolled once because it wasn't balanced.)

[Ichimaru Gin]

@Ichi: The alignments were chosen with the roles.. mail-mi posted all the possible ones.  We only know that there is a check on balance. (We rerolled once because it wasn't balanced.)

Ok. So "balance" is somewhat up to interpretation then?
I guess I was just wondering if other large setups tend to have more scum in order to "balance" them. Maybe I'm wrong though.

[xeiron]

Don't you agree that it's bad when town looks like scum?

It's not that I disagree, it's just that it's completely beside the point. The point is to find scum, not to teach people how to play the game. Voting for Nik because you find his town play to be anti-town is basically a policy vote, which are bad because you need to be playing for you wincon THIS game, not for future games.

That being said, I don't find the mini-wagon on Nik scummy. How many games has he been in ? HoC and that's it right ? Unless he is in the BM game but that's ongoing so no one can comment on it anyway. WHich means not that many people have played with him.

I'm completely null on Nik.  I don't think there's anything to indicate that he's any more likely to be town/scum than whatever the unmodified probability is.

Teproc does have a point.  We want to play to win this game and not to make players better.

Yeah. It probably wasn't the most productive thing. But hey, I'm not that experienced myself.
At any rate, it doesn't seem like much interaction surrounding this issue tells us much.

Hmm. Having never played a game with this many players, it's a different sort of experience. I seem to remember some sort of conversation like this in a game I was following. And I think people found the person asking it scummy, I'm gonna ask it anyway though.

With, what 16 people in the game, does the scumteam scale up in size? Like are we likely looking at a 4 person team, or is that not something we can determine?

Usually, 4 scum sounds about right with 16 players.
However, this is greater Idea Mafia. Our factions where decided from what cards we chose at the start of the game. The setup allows anything from 1 to 16 "scum" divided between up to five or six scum-factions.
We have really no idea what we are up against this game, and we should not assume that the game is balanced.

[Axxle]

I like Axxle, and TA as well, in that order.

What Xerxes said about Joth was interesting (^TM ), but I haven't had a chance to go back and read and really think about it.

Also a bit unsure about the "failure of language" comment.  Is that saying that English isn't a first language, or that you just misspoke?  (This is directed to Axxle.)

I mean that people, even me, use "town" to talk about both players in the game and players that are aligned with the town faction.

[Ichimaru Gin]

@xeiron

Ok thanks. That makes sense. So 4 scum would make sense given a more standard 16 player setup, but since this is Greater Idea mafia, we really don't know what to expect.
Well that makes things interesting™.

[Witherweaver]

I like Axxle, and TA as well, in that order.

What Xerxes said about Joth was interesting (^TM ), but I haven't had a chance to go back and read and really think about it.

Also a bit unsure about the "failure of language" comment.  Is that saying that English isn't a first language, or that you just misspoke?  (This is directed to Axxle.)

I mean that people, even me, use "town" to talk about both players in the game and players that are aligned with the town faction.

Oh okay, I wasn't aware of that.

[Twistedarcher]

Xeiron, we have some guarantee of balance from mail-mi. So it might not be super balanced but its also not super unbalanced -- so probably like 4-7 scum is a good guess. High number is possible with lots of teams.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Vote Count 1.4:


Robz888 (1): chairs

Twistedarcher (1): jotheonah

Axxle (7): Xeiron, Witherweaver, Voltaire, A Drowned Kernal, Nik, EgorK, XerxesPraelor

Nik (2): Axxle, scott_pilgrim

Ichimaru Gin (1): Twistedarcher

Not Voting (4): Robz888, Beyond Awesome, Teproc, Ichimaru Gin


With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.
Day 1 ends on Wed. May 21 at 11 PM FT.

[Voltaire]

2 more!

[Axxle]

2 more!

I really don't think you're going to lynch me today so you can look elsewhere.

[Nik]

2 more!

I really don't think you're going to lynch me today so you can look elsewhere.

Yeah, the 9 other people haven't changed their votes. But where else do we look? Maybe this is OMGUS, but I thought it was weird and kind of scummy that he would vote for me not because he thought I was scum, but because he thought I don't play right.
Also, /prod Beyond Awesome.

[Twistedarcher]

Btw Nik, don't listen to all the people telling you you play the game "wrong" and need to change...we've all been mislynched before. I don't know why people are saying that you need to seriously change your playstyle, I'm sure it's fine, don't worry about it too much.

[Witherweaver]

2 more!

I really don't think you're going to lynch me today so you can look elsewhere.

Yeah, the 9 other people haven't changed their votes. But where else do we look? Maybe this is OMGUS, but I thought it was weird and kind of scummy that he would vote for me not because he thought I was scum, but because he thought I don't play right.
Also, /prod Beyond Awesome.

Ichi made that case, not Axxle.  Axxle voted for you because he thought your sheeping was scummy.

[Nik]

Sorry. I mean to say that Ichimaru Gin looked kind of scummy because of his vote.

[Robz888]

2 more!

I really don't think you're going to lynch me today so you can look elsewhere.

I have been lynched for saying exactly this.

I was town, though.

[Ichimaru Gin]

2 more!

I really don't think you're going to lynch me today so you can look elsewhere.

Yeah, the 9 other people haven't changed their votes. But where else do we look? Maybe this is OMGUS, but I thought it was weird and kind of scummy that he would vote for me not because he thought I was scum, but because he thought I don't play right.
Also, /prod Beyond Awesome.

I wasn't trying to say that you weren't playing the game "right". People play this game in a lot of different ways.
I just found some of your behavior scummy. I'm still a pretty new player myself, and was also found scummy in my second game even though I was town then. I find you somewhat scummy, but look, there are plenty of other, more experienced players that don't. Apologies if I came across as across-the-board critical of your play, you play fine--and obviously Volt seems really good at reading you correctly.

[jotheonah]

Hey guys, haven't caught up but.

I am at a wedding this weekend so I haven't been on much, and unfortuately I'm on a train with no wifi all day tomorrow. So you might not see much of me. When is deadline? Is my vote desperately needed somewhere? What's this case on Axxle all about?

Jonah

[jotheonah]

I don't know why I signed that like it was an email, I guess I'm a little out of it.

[Beyond Awesome]

Since we're prodding newbies : request a prod on Beyond Awesome.

Sorry. I did not realize the thread got unlocked a few days ago.

Anyway, I am reading over everyone's posts right now. Should have a vote soon.

[Beyond Awesome]

Vote: Axxle

[A Drowned Kernel]

Welcome to mafia, Beyond Awesome. This is your first game, right? FYI your vote puts Axxle at L-1, meaning he's one vote away from being lynched, which is a precarious position to be in because one vote on him will end the day. Because of that it's usually good form to announce when your vote puts someone at L-1.

[Beyond Awesome]

Welcome to mafia, Beyond Awesome. This is your first game, right? FYI your vote puts Axxle at L-1, meaning he's one vote away from being lynched, which is a precarious position to be in because one vote on him will end the day. Because of that it's usually good form to announce when your vote puts someone at L-1.

Yes, this is my first game. How do I do announce that? Do I put in bold that Axxle is at L-1?

[Twistedarcher]

I can't believe we are lynching Axxle? He's like the one person I actually have a town read on.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I can't believe we are lynching Axxle? He's like the one person I actually have a town read on.

I have to agree with TA here. Why does beyond awesome want to lynch Axxle?

[Witherweaver]

I can't believe we are lynching Axxle? He's like the one person I actually have a town read on.

I have to agree with TA here. Why does beyond awesome want to lynch Axxle?

Well, lots of people are voting for him, and the case isn't bad.  I get a town read on Beyond Awesome from it.  I don't think first game scum is going to jump on a late wagon without pretending to have an explanation.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I can't believe we are lynching Axxle? He's like the one person I actually have a town read on.

I have to agree with TA here. Why does beyond awesome want to lynch Axxle?

Well, lots of people are voting for him, and the case isn't bad.  I get a town read on Beyond Awesome from it.  I don't think first game scum is going to jump on a late wagon without pretending to have an explanation.

Hmm. I can kind of see that. But it also makes me nervous. I mean, this tells us pretty much nothing about Beyond Awesome. Just showing up late D1 and joining the big wagon of the day seems pretty scummy to me. He didn't even give a reason for voting.

[Teproc]

I can't believe we are lynching Axxle? He's like the one person I actually have a town read on.

I have to agree with TA here. Why does beyond awesome want to lynch Axxle?

Well, lots of people are voting for him, and the case isn't bad.  I get a town read on Beyond Awesome from it.  I don't think first game scum is going to jump on a late wagon without pretending to have an explanation.

I disagree. There's precedent (Ichimaru actually) for a first game scum acting scumy in a very "classic" way, if that makes sense. He got away with it because people said he was basically too obvious to be scum, but I think newbie scum is certainly capable of being very obvious.

I'm not a big fan of the Axxle wagon, too. I'm null on Axxle, so I'm fine with his lynch in the long run but not right now.

vote : Beyond Awesome

[Voltaire]

I can't believe we are lynching Axxle? He's like the one person I actually have a town read on.

I have to agree with TA here. Why does beyond awesome want to lynch Axxle?

Well, lots of people are voting for him, and the case isn't bad.  I get a town read on Beyond Awesome from it.  I don't think first game scum is going to jump on a late wagon without pretending to have an explanation.

Complete agreement with this.

[Voltaire]

Which game was that, Teproc?

[Teproc]

I can't believe we are lynching Axxle? He's like the one person I actually have a town read on.

I have to agree with TA here. Why does beyond awesome want to lynch Axxle?

Well, lots of people are voting for him, and the case isn't bad.  I get a town read on Beyond Awesome from it.  I don't think first game scum is going to jump on a late wagon without pretending to have an explanation.

Complete agreement with this.

Huh.

PPE : Dynasty Warriors II

[A Drowned Kernel]

Welcome to mafia, Beyond Awesome. This is your first game, right? FYI your vote puts Axxle at L-1, meaning he's one vote away from being lynched, which is a precarious position to be in because one vote on him will end the day. Because of that it's usually good form to announce when your vote puts someone at L-1.

Yes, this is my first game. How do I do announce that? Do I put in bold that Axxle is at L-1?

Just mentioning it in your post is fine. Also why are you voting for Axxle?

[xeiron]

Xeiron, we have some guarantee of balance from mail-mi. So it might not be super balanced but its also not super unbalanced -- so probably like 4-7 scum is a good guess. High number is possible with lots of teams.

 4-7 is a good guess based on statistics, but is not a need for balance. 2 scum could be hard enough if we are dealing with a cult. On the other extreme, 10 or more scum could also be balanced. If everyone had played with their discarded card, it would be 7 town against 9 scum.

We have some guarantee of balance, right. But with 8 possible factions, there cannot be a guarantee that the game is balanced for all of them. Town might be in a hopless situation right from the beginning as long as at least two other factions have good starting positions.

[xeiron]

Hey guys, haven't caught up but.

I am at a wedding this weekend so I haven't been on much, and unfortuately I'm on a train with no wifi all day tomorrow. So you might not see much of me. When is deadline? Is my vote desperately needed somewhere? What's this case on Axxle all about?

Jonah

Deadline is wednesday. Still over three days left.

The case on Axxle is that he is someone likely to pick scum over town if given the choice. That is quite significant, since in this game, we actually did pick our own allignent.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hey guys, haven't caught up but.

I am at a wedding this weekend so I haven't been on much, and unfortuately I'm on a train with no wifi all day tomorrow. So you might not see much of me. When is deadline? Is my vote desperately needed somewhere? What's this case on Axxle all about?

Jonah

Deadline is wednesday. Still over three days left.

The case on Axxle is that he is someone likely to pick scum over town if given the choice. That is quite significant, since in this game, we actually did pick our own allignent.

I appreciate this as well, since I didn't really understand the case against Axxle.

Except he discarded a Mountebank--which seems like it would be a scum role. It's always possible that he got cards that were both scum roles. But if I wanted to be scum and got a Mountebank, I think I'd keep it, because it seems like it would be a scum role (and it ended up being a scum role). So it seems like the case on Axxle is kind of thin if it's just based off that.

[Axxle]

govern: Axxle

Your case is invalid.

[Teproc]

There is the possibility for both Mafia and Town One-Shot Governor in this game. The cards are Nobles (mafia) and Governor (town).

I'm assuming none of these were discarded ? This does mean that Axxle can be counterclaimed here (not that we'd lynch him though, so maybe best to wait for tomorrow).

Not a fan of this, but I guess you'd probably govern here as town, can't take the risk to be hammered...

[Teproc]

I find it very strange that you picked either Nobles or Governor over Mountebank though. Didn't want to be scum after all ?

[Ichimaru Gin]

I find it very strange that you picked either Nobles or Governor over Mountebank though. Didn't want to be scum after all ?

Wait! What does govern mean?

[Axxle]

I find it very strange that you picked either Nobles or Governor over Mountebank though. Didn't want to be scum after all ?

I picked governor since I forgot that we're doing great idea and not a upick on the second go around. Governor sounded like some fun joat/inventor variant 

[mail-mi]

Vote Count 1.5

Robz888 (1): chairs
Twistedarcher (1): jotheonah
Nik (2): Axxle, scott_pilgrim
Ichimaru Gin (1): Twistedarcher

Not Voting (11): Robz888, Beyond Awesome, Teproc, Ichimaru Gin, Xeiron, Witherweaver, Voltaire, A Drowned Kernal, Nik, EgorK, XerxesPraelor


With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.
Day 1 ends on Wed. May 21 at 11 PM FT.

[Axxle]

I find it very strange that you picked either Nobles or Governor over Mountebank though. Didn't want to be scum after all ?

Wait! What does govern mean?

I can cause someone not to be lynched for a day, I chose myself.

[Witherweaver]

I find it very strange that you picked either Nobles or Governor over Mountebank though. Didn't want to be scum after all ?

Wait! What does govern mean?

I can cause someone not to be lynched for a day, I chose myself.

Is this for real real?

[Ichimaru Gin]

I find it very strange that you picked either Nobles or Governor over Mountebank though. Didn't want to be scum after all ?

Wait! What does govern mean?

I can cause someone not to be lynched for a day, I chose myself.

Well mail-mi changed the vote count accordingly. So I think so.

Is this for real real?

[Ichimaru Gin]

I find it very strange that you picked either Nobles or Governor over Mountebank though. Didn't want to be scum after all ?

Wait! What does govern mean?

I can cause someone not to be lynched for a day, I chose myself.

Is this for real real?

Messed that up.

I meant to say that mail-mi changed the vote count accordingly. So yeah.

[Axxle]

I implore everyone to read the wiki entry on great idea mafia so you know the possible roles (except scum , please stay in ignorance)

[Twistedarcher]

So Axxle has a 50% chance of being scum now?

[Ichimaru Gin]

So Axxle has a 50% chance of being scum now?

Yeah. I was going to ask. Is governor a town ability? Or can it also be for scum?
Wait. Nevermind. I took a look at the role list. Now I understand TA's comment.

Hmm. There are so many people playing this game, it's a little hard to keep track. I think Beyond Awesome's vote on Axxle was really scummy.
Teproc brought up my behavior in my first game--and it makes sense to me. I ended up surviving probably way longer than I should have as scum, because people thought that I wouldn't act as scummy as I did.

I'm gonna vote: Beyond Awesome
Also, he never answered or made any elaboration about why he voted for Axxle.

[Ichimaru Gin]

And wait. I'm pretty sure Teproc is voting for Beyond Awesome as well, but his vote somehow disappeared.

[mail-mi]

Vote Count 1.6

Robz888 (1): chairs
Twistedarcher (1): jotheonah
Nik (2): Axxle, scott_pilgrim
Ichimaru Gin (1): Twistedarcher
Beyond Awesome (2): Teproc, Ichimaru Gin

Not Voting (9): Robz888, Beyond Awesome, Xeiron, Witherweaver, Voltaire, A Drowned Kernal, Nik, EgorK, XerxesPraelor


With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.
Day 1 ends on Wed. May 21 at 11 PM FT.

[Voltaire]

Bah. Umm...hmmm...will need to recalibrate.

[Beyond Awesome]

So Axxle has a 50% chance of being scum now?

Yeah. I was going to ask. Is governor a town ability? Or can it also be for scum?
Wait. Nevermind. I took a look at the role list. Now I understand TA's comment.

Hmm. There are so many people playing this game, it's a little hard to keep track. I think Beyond Awesome's vote on Axxle was really scummy.
Teproc brought up my behavior in my first game--and it makes sense to me. I ended up surviving probably way longer than I should have as scum, because people thought that I wouldn't act as scummy as I did.

I'm gonna vote: Beyond Awesome
Also, he never answered or made any elaboration about why he voted for Axxle.

The reason I voted for Axxle was because a lot of people felt he was scum or at least stated as such, so I jumped on the bandwagon prematurely without fully realizing the ramifications of my actions. I see now that my vote could have made me look like scum because it looks like I might have been trying to eliminate a potential towns person. I'm starting to understand the game better where if you are scum you want to convince both scum and towns people to eliminate towns people. I did not fully grasp that concept at first.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So Axxle has a 50% chance of being scum now?

Yeah. I was going to ask. Is governor a town ability? Or can it also be for scum?
Wait. Nevermind. I took a look at the role list. Now I understand TA's comment.

Hmm. There are so many people playing this game, it's a little hard to keep track. I think Beyond Awesome's vote on Axxle was really scummy.
Teproc brought up my behavior in my first game--and it makes sense to me. I ended up surviving probably way longer than I should have as scum, because people thought that I wouldn't act as scummy as I did.

I'm gonna vote: Beyond Awesome
Also, he never answered or made any elaboration about why he voted for Axxle.

The reason I voted for Axxle was because a lot of people felt he was scum or at least stated as such, so I jumped on the bandwagon prematurely without fully realizing the ramifications of my actions. I see now that my vote could have made me look like scum because it looks like I might have been trying to eliminate a potential towns person. I'm starting to understand the game better where if you are scum you want to convince both scum and towns people to eliminate towns people. I did not fully grasp that concept at first.

I think I buy this. It must have been tough to step into your first game after there had already been quite a bit of development too. I don't really see this post coming from scum.


unvote

[Twistedarcher]

Back to Vote:Robz

[A Drowned Kernel]

Well at least Axxle gave us some time to figure this out. I'm also leaning town on him because picking Governor over Mountebank makes a bit more sense than picking Nobles.

Ichimaru Gin is giving me a bit of a vibe. Like he's trying to buddy up to people. Vote: Ichimaru

[Ichimaru Gin]

Well at least Axxle gave us some time to figure this out. I'm also leaning town on him because picking Governor over Mountebank makes a bit more sense than picking Nobles.

Ichimaru Gin is giving me a bit of a vibe. Like he's trying to buddy up to people. Vote: Ichimaru

Bah. I'm just being honest. I ride people, and then when they give me signs that they are town, I back off some.
It sounded as if I may have gone a little too much on Nik, so I apologized. I think you will find that any "buddying" is normally with people I've previously argued with or found scummy.

There are a ton of people in this game who aren't participating much. Those who are at least participating--and therefore interacting with me are all slightly more townie in my eyes.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Bah. I'm just being honest. I ride people, and then when they give me signs that they are town, I back off some.

There's an argument that being too easily convinced of other player's towniness is a scum trait. Scum has to fake reads on people, and when a scum player puts out "scumreads" that are then responded to, it's hard to gauge whether the response would convince you as town, because you already know the person's alignment.

[Voltaire]

vote: Robz

[Voltaire]

no that's silly

vote: scott_pilgrim for being background off the top of my head, like before

[Ichimaru Gin]

Bah. I'm just being honest. I ride people, and then when they give me signs that they are town, I back off some.

There's an argument that being too easily convinced of other player's towniness is a scum trait. Scum has to fake reads on people, and when a scum player puts out "scumreads" that are then responded to, it's hard to gauge whether the response would convince you as town, because you already know the person's alignment.

I can see the logic behind this argument. Truth is, I haven't really found anyone really scummy so far. There have been a few people I've had mild scumreads on, pushed them, and they've responded well enough. In a setup this large, I think it could be easier for scum to hide just in the sheer number of players (and low participation players) to avoid attention.
It makes things different as well, in that if there are multiple scumteams running around, they can't say for sure that someone is town, because they wouldn't know if they weren't part of their particular scum faction.
Isn't it town's job to push people and gauge reactions? You are right that I have backed off after minimal response, but I am town in this case. Trying to have interactions with the most people and pushing each one I find a little suspicious is my response to a setup this size.

PPE: 2

[XerxesPraelor]

Okay, if we can't lynch Axxle, let's lynch jothenah!

Vote: jothenah

[xeiron]

Axxle claimed governor, thats awesome. And it makes me want to lynch him even more.

Say we do lynch him. Two things may happend.
- He dies because he lied about being governor. Good for us, because he probably wouldn't lie as town.
- He do not die. Meaning he really is governor.

It really is a fortunate situation, being able to lynch someone if and only if they are lying. The downside is that we will no-lynch if Axxle saves himself, but I think that checking this claim is just as good use of the lynch as lynching someone else at semi-random.

My vote stands on Axxle

[Axxle]

Axxle claimed governor, thats awesome. And it makes me want to lynch him even more.

Say we do lynch him. Two things may happend.
- He dies because he lied about being governor. Good for us, because he probably wouldn't lie as town.
- He do not die. Meaning he really is governor.

It really is a fortunate situation, being able to lynch someone if and only if they are lying. The downside is that we will no-lynch if Axxle saves himself, but I think that checking this claim is just as good use of the lynch as lynching someone else at semi-random.

My vote stands on Axxle

Your votes not on me anymore since I can't be lynched.

[xeiron]

Axxle claimed governor, thats awesome. And it makes me want to lynch him even more.

Say we do lynch him. Two things may happend.
- He dies because he lied about being governor. Good for us, because he probably wouldn't lie as town.
- He do not die. Meaning he really is governor.

It really is a fortunate situation, being able to lynch someone if and only if they are lying. The downside is that we will no-lynch if Axxle saves himself, but I think that checking this claim is just as good use of the lynch as lynching someone else at semi-random.

My vote stands on Axxle

Your votes not on me anymore since I can't be lynched.

You are right. I missed the votecounts.

[Nik]

Vote: Ichimaru Gin
Not only did he vote for me only because he thought I wasn't playing right, but he also claims he thinks people are scum, questions them, then backs off. Very scummy.

[xeiron]

Bah. I'm just being honest. I ride people, and then when they give me signs that they are town, I back off some.

There's an argument that being too easily convinced of other player's towniness is a scum trait. Scum has to fake reads on people, and when a scum player puts out "scumreads" that are then responded to, it's hard to gauge whether the response would convince you as town, because you already know the person's alignment.

Normally I would agree to this, but in this game scum do not have to fake many reads. Mafia, Werewolfs and Alien knows their teammates, true, and want to fake those reads. But with around ten possible factions (counting SK's separately), there is enough scum for everybody to search for. Nobody can find town by elimination.

Townread on A Drowned Kernel, though. I think he would have been more aware of this had he been scum.

[Beyond Awesome]

Axxle claimed governor, thats awesome. And it makes me want to lynch him even more.

Say we do lynch him. Two things may happend.
- He dies because he lied about being governor. Good for us, because he probably wouldn't lie as town.
- He do not die. Meaning he really is governor.

It really is a fortunate situation, being able to lynch someone if and only if they are lying. The downside is that we will no-lynch if Axxle saves himself, but I think that checking this claim is just as good use of the lynch as lynching someone else at semi-random.

My vote stands on Axxle

I feel it was scummy of Xeiron to want to vote on Axxle again. There is a 50/50 chance that Axxle is Nobles, but I think it is more likely that he is Governor.

[XerxesPraelor]

Axxle claimed governor, thats awesome. And it makes me want to lynch him even more.

Say we do lynch him. Two things may happend.
- He dies because he lied about being governor. Good for us, because he probably wouldn't lie as town.
- He do not die. Meaning he really is governor.

It really is a fortunate situation, being able to lynch someone if and only if they are lying. The downside is that we will no-lynch if Axxle saves himself, but I think that checking this claim is just as good use of the lynch as lynching someone else at semi-random.

My vote stands on Axxle

I feel it was scummy of Xeiron to want to vote on Axxle again. There is a 50/50 chance that Axxle is Nobles, but I think it is more likely that he is Governor.

The last two parts of your sentence contradict each other. Why does the fact(?) that he's more likely to be town mean that xeiron's vote is scummy?

I think the vote is towny, because as scum you'd know that he isn't lying and would have little reason (besides taking up time) for "checking" if he's really a governor.

[XerxesPraelor]

Also, nobody responded to my joth case and he's hasn't posted anything recently.

[Voltaire]

I agree with town points to xeiron for his recent actions. I also agree with town points for ADK because of whatever someone said.

I was thinking this was too many town points. Then I thought about how there are tons of people in this game and felt better. Then I thought about how even scum will scumhunt since we have high odds of multiple factions. Then I got sad.

[Teproc]

Also, nobody responded to my joth case and he's hasn't posted anything recently.

I know this kind of thing is annoying, but could you reiterate it please ? I do intend on rereading soon but I can't right now.

[Witherweaver]

Axxle claimed governor, thats awesome. And it makes me want to lynch him even more.

Say we do lynch him. Two things may happend.
- He dies because he lied about being governor. Good for us, because he probably wouldn't lie as town.
- He do not die. Meaning he really is governor.

It really is a fortunate situation, being able to lynch someone if and only if they are lying. The downside is that we will no-lynch if Axxle saves himself, but I think that checking this claim is just as good use of the lynch as lynching someone else at semi-random.

My vote stands on Axxle

I feel it was scummy of Xeiron to want to vote on Axxle again. There is a 50/50 chance that Axxle is Nobles, but I think it is more likely that he is Governor.

Why do you think this Governors is more likely than Nobles?  Do you have some special insight into how Axxle thinks? 

[Beyond Awesome]

Axxle claimed governor, thats awesome. And it makes me want to lynch him even more.

Say we do lynch him. Two things may happend.
- He dies because he lied about being governor. Good for us, because he probably wouldn't lie as town.
- He do not die. Meaning he really is governor.

It really is a fortunate situation, being able to lynch someone if and only if they are lying. The downside is that we will no-lynch if Axxle saves himself, but I think that checking this claim is just as good use of the lynch as lynching someone else at semi-random.

My vote stands on Axxle

I feel it was scummy of Xeiron to want to vote on Axxle again. There is a 50/50 chance that Axxle is Nobles, but I think it is more likely that he is Governor.

The last two parts of your sentence contradict each other. Why does the fact(?) that he's more likely to be town mean that xeiron's vote is scummy?

I think the vote is towny, because as scum you'd know that he isn't lying and would have little reason (besides taking up time) for "checking" if he's really a governor.

I felt it was more of a scum move because of how I interpreted the Governor ability to work. I thought the ability worked that once per round you can save someone from being lynched so I took that to mean that if people gang up on you again then your ability won't work for that round. But, it seems that how the ability actually works is that no votes can be cast for that person for that round. In other words, based on how I thought the ability to work, it would be better in Day 2 to vote on Axxle to see if he is really Governor or not.

[Beyond Awesome]

Axxle claimed governor, thats awesome. And it makes me want to lynch him even more.

Say we do lynch him. Two things may happend.
- He dies because he lied about being governor. Good for us, because he probably wouldn't lie as town.
- He do not die. Meaning he really is governor.

It really is a fortunate situation, being able to lynch someone if and only if they are lying. The downside is that we will no-lynch if Axxle saves himself, but I think that checking this claim is just as good use of the lynch as lynching someone else at semi-random.

My vote stands on Axxle

I feel it was scummy of Xeiron to want to vote on Axxle again. There is a 50/50 chance that Axxle is Nobles, but I think it is more likely that he is Governor.

Why do you think this Governors is more likely than Nobles?  Do you have some special insight into how Axxle thinks?

I arrived at that conclusion from reading earlier posts. We know his other card was Mountebank, so I figured one is likely to keep Mountebank if they have the choice of Nobles, but I can see keeping Governor instead.

[XerxesPraelor]

Yeah, discarding Fortress was not good. One-Shot Bulletproof is perfect forme, for some reason I thought it would be a protective role (ie Doctor variant) rather than something that actually protected me...

God forbid town have a doctor! you really dodged the bullet on that one. vote: Teproc

This is exactly what I previously said, and adds nothing to the discussion. Also, "town", not "we". It's pretty much a completely safe thing to say, that isn't very useful.

Wowza, 5 votes on Robz! that seems a little extreme.

He's only barely halfway to a lynch.
vote: joth I was scum and got scum points for caring too much about L's. It's not something obvious, so it's a better tell.

Also, this.

Vote:Robz888
His only post looks a little scummy, but the fact he has not responded to the constant voting on him makes me thinks he is definitely Mafia.
Robz, explanation?

wait what. I think Mafia would have responded right away. Hell, mafia would be more invested in the game to begin with. We should call this what it is if we're doing it: LAL

Making this sort of presumptions about what scum would or would not choose to do is bad reasoning that helps scum. This post is the sort of thing that scum would post about either town or scum, so that in the first place, the idea that it's LAL means that it's harder to analyze the wagon, and if it's scum, makes people think it's more likely that the wagon will fizzle off once people develop stronger reads, which makes robz less likely to be lynched.

Sell me on it, Axxle. what's the case?

Lastly, this sort of question feels gut scummy to me. Pretending objectivity, but then getting the flexibility means that scum doesn't need to precommit.

I know this isn't very big, but I really think some of these posts (and they're most of his) are pretty scummy.

[XerxesPraelor]

Basically, because nobles sounds less cool than governor. That why I chose catacombs over envoy the first try.

[Teproc]

Axxle claimed governor, thats awesome. And it makes me want to lynch him even more.

Say we do lynch him. Two things may happend.
- He dies because he lied about being governor. Good for us, because he probably wouldn't lie as town.
- He do not die. Meaning he really is governor.

It really is a fortunate situation, being able to lynch someone if and only if they are lying. The downside is that we will no-lynch if Axxle saves himself, but I think that checking this claim is just as good use of the lynch as lynching someone else at semi-random.

My vote stands on Axxle

I feel it was scummy of Xeiron to want to vote on Axxle again. There is a 50/50 chance that Axxle is Nobles, but I think it is more likely that he is Governor.

The last two parts of your sentence contradict each other. Why does the fact(?) that he's more likely to be town mean that xeiron's vote is scummy?

I think the vote is towny, because as scum you'd know that he isn't lying and would have little reason (besides taking up time) for "checking" if he's really a governor.

I felt it was more of a scum move because of how I interpreted the Governor ability to work. I thought the ability worked that once per round you can save someone from being lynched so I took that to mean that if people gang up on you again then your ability won't work for that round. But, it seems that how the ability actually works is that no votes can be cast for that person for that round. In other words, based on how I thought the ability to work, it would be better in Day 2 to vote on Axxle to see if he is really Governor or not.

We know his claim is true, he definitely is a Governor. But there is the possibility for both scum and town Governor in this setup.

As far as what Axxle kept, I feel like this is pointless speculation. I think Axxle generally wants to be scum, but he didn't pick the obvious scum card with Mountebank. Then Governor is not a super sexy role as town, but it's very powerful as scum, so he could maybe have picked Governor (the card) ? But it's not a very fun role. So maybe he picked Nobles because at least you have no idea what that will be ?

In any case, it's very hard to draw a solid conclusion for it, so I'm still null on Axxle. Also we should stop talking about that and focus on finding someone to lynch.

PPE : 3

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: Ichimaru Gin
Not only did he vote for me only because he thought I wasn't playing right, but he also claims he thinks people are scum, questions them, then backs off. Very scummy.

This is starting to become a pattern, just saying.

One thing we haven't seen much of yet is analysis of the axxle wagon from axxle himself. Now that you're not in danger of being lynched, do you have any reads based on what went down?

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, discarding Fortress was not good. One-Shot Bulletproof is perfect forme, for some reason I thought it would be a protective role (ie Doctor variant) rather than something that actually protected me...

God forbid town have a doctor! you really dodged the bullet on that one. vote: Teproc

This is exactly what I previously said, and adds nothing to the discussion. Also, "town", not "we". It's pretty much a completely safe thing to say, that isn't very useful.

Wowza, 5 votes on Robz! that seems a little extreme.

He's only barely halfway to a lynch.
vote: joth I was scum and got scum points for caring too much about L's. It's not something obvious, so it's a better tell.

Also, this.

Vote:Robz888
His only post looks a little scummy, but the fact he has not responded to the constant voting on him makes me thinks he is definitely Mafia.
Robz, explanation?

wait what. I think Mafia would have responded right away. Hell, mafia would be more invested in the game to begin with. We should call this what it is if we're doing it: LAL

Making this sort of presumptions about what scum would or would not choose to do is bad reasoning that helps scum. This post is the sort of thing that scum would post about either town or scum, so that in the first place, the idea that it's LAL means that it's harder to analyze the wagon, and if it's scum, makes people think it's more likely that the wagon will fizzle off once people develop stronger reads, which makes robz less likely to be lynched.

Sell me on it, Axxle. what's the case?

Lastly, this sort of question feels gut scummy to me. Pretending objectivity, but then getting the flexibility means that scum doesn't need to precommit.

I know this isn't very big, but I really think some of these posts (and they're most of his) are pretty scummy.

Huh?  You're including posts by people other than Joth as the ones that are scummy? 

I don't really get the same impression from the first two points.  The last point may be something, and he also said something similar a couple of pages back:

Hey guys, haven't caught up but.

I am at a wedding this weekend so I haven't been on much, and unfortuately I'm on a train with no wifi all day tomorrow. So you might not see much of me. When is deadline? Is my vote desperately needed somewhere? What's this case on Axxle all about?

Jonah

Kind of like saying "Sell me on Axxle". 

The third point I think carries the most weight, though I'm not certain I understand what you're saying about it.  My thought is bringing up "well, scum would want to do this" is more likely to come from scum than town, because scum have to be much more conscious about how scum think and act in order to avoid those things.  I'm not sure if you were saying something similar or not. 

[AndrewisFTTW]

Vote Count 1.7


Robz888 (1): chairs, Twistedarcher

Twistedarcher (1): jotheonah

Nik (2): Axxle, scott_pilgrim

Beyond Awesome (1): Teproc

Ichimaru Gin (2): A Drowned Kernal, Nik

scott_pilgrim (1): Voltaire

jotheonah (1): XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (6): Robz888, Beyond Awesome, Xeiron, Witherweaver, EgorK, Ichimaru Gin


With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Vote: Ichimaru Gin
Not only did he vote for me only because he thought I wasn't playing right, but he also claims he thinks people are scum, questions them, then backs off. Very scummy.

This is starting to become a pattern, just saying.

One thing we haven't seen much of yet is analysis of the axxle wagon from axxle himself. Now that you're not in danger of being lynched, do you have any reads based on what went down?

What is becoming a pattern?
And no. I do not believe what Nik mentioned about my behavior is scummy, especially not "very scummy". It's OMGUS on his part.
Also, I think it's likely that he missed http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10980.msg378811#msg378811 this post of mine.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: Ichimaru Gin
Not only did he vote for me only because he thought I wasn't playing right, but he also claims he thinks people are scum, questions them, then backs off. Very scummy.

This is starting to become a pattern, just saying.

One thing we haven't seen much of yet is analysis of the axxle wagon from axxle himself. Now that you're not in danger of being lynched, do you have any reads based on what went down?

What is becoming a pattern?

Nik jumping on wagons in a scummy fashion. I don't know how much of a wagon is actually on you but he voted for right after I did and basically just repeated what I said about you, and it's been mentioned that his votes for Robz and Axxle were similarly sheepy.

[scott_pilgrim]

Hey everyone, I haven't posted in a few days because I haven't had internet access.  I will be really busy for the next few days and probably won't be able to post much, and I don't have time to catch up now...

Deadline is Wednesday, that's a really bad time for me.  Hopefully I can catch up before then...

[Witherweaver]

So I thought Robz would be back, but he just came to post some non-content.  What's your status, Robz?  No thoughts on you almost getting lynched here? 

[Witherweaver]

Also: Chairs is allegedly in this game.  Don't think we've seen him for days.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also: Chairs is allegedly in this game.  Don't think we've seen him for days.

Yeah. I almost forgot he was playing.
I'm still a little unsure about Nik. I agree with what ADK said. And it's also pretty obvious he (Nik) didn't read my reply to his last post. So I wonder how closely he's following.

[Witherweaver]

Also: Chairs is allegedly in this game.  Don't think we've seen him for days.

Yeah. I almost forgot he was playing.
I'm still a little unsure about Nik. I agree with what ADK said. And it's also pretty obvious he (Nik) didn't read my reply to his last post. So I wonder how closely he's following.

Well, that's pretty similar to what he was doing in HoC. 

[Robz888]

So I thought Robz would be back, but he just came to post some non-content.  What's your status, Robz?  No thoughts on you almost getting lynched here?

I almost got lynched? When did I almost get lynched? Two people are voting for me.

I haven't kept up to date with the thread, and there are a million people in this game. At least I'm dead in one of my other games, though, so I can try to catch up soon.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also: Chairs is allegedly in this game.  Don't think we've seen him for days.

Yeah. I almost forgot he was playing.
I'm still a little unsure about Nik. I agree with what ADK said. And it's also pretty obvious he (Nik) didn't read my reply to his last post. So I wonder how closely he's following.

Well, that's pretty similar to what he was doing in HoC.

Yeah. That's the thing. I haven't seen Nik as scum before, so I'm not sure how to interpret his behavior.
I think you're reminding me why I just decided to trust Voltaire on Nik--cause I haven't exactly been the best at reading him. Though his play makes me a little nervous just the same.

[Nik]

Vote: Chairs
I think all he posted was an /in. Lurker.

[Witherweaver]

So I thought Robz would be back, but he just came to post some non-content.  What's your status, Robz?  No thoughts on you almost getting lynched here?

I almost got lynched? When did I almost get lynched? Two people are voting for me.

I haven't kept up to date with the thread, and there are a million people in this game. At least I'm dead in one of my other games, though, so I can try to catch up soon.

This is now starting to sound like forced disinterest to me.  I know you've been away, but you didn't glance in at all and see any of the 2-3 pages of votes/discussions regarding you? 

[xeiron]

Vote: Chairs
I think all he posted was an /in. Lurker.

He had five posts the first day after we started, but nothing more.

I am fine with a lurker lynch.

Vote: Chairs

[Robz888]

So I thought Robz would be back, but he just came to post some non-content.  What's your status, Robz?  No thoughts on you almost getting lynched here?

I almost got lynched? When did I almost get lynched? Two people are voting for me.

I haven't kept up to date with the thread, and there are a million people in this game. At least I'm dead in one of my other games, though, so I can try to catch up soon.

This is now starting to sound like forced disinterest to me.  I know you've been away, but you didn't glance in at all and see any of the 2-3 pages of votes/discussions regarding you?

No, I really didn't. When I checked, there weren't any votes on me, and when I checked again there weren't really any votes on me. I'll read it eventually, but things have been crazy.

[xeiron]

Post Count 1.0 (not including pregame posts)

Ichimaru Gin - 46
Axxle - 37
Witherweaver - 36
Twistedarcher - 32
Teproc - 30
Voltaire - 29
XerxesPraelor - 24
A Drowned Kernel - 19
xeiron - 16
Nik - 14
scott_pilgrim - 10
jotheonah - 9
Beyond Awesome - 7
Robz888 - 6
chairs - 5
EgorK - 3

[Ichimaru Gin]

...and to think I thought I would be VLA for finals.

Still have my hardest one left: microeconomics. Semi-smooth sailing after that.

[Voltaire]

I think this is my arbitrary lynch pool based on vote counts.

A Drowned Kernel - 19
xeiron - 16
Nik - 14
scott_pilgrim - 10
jotheonah - 9
Beyond Awesome - 7
Robz888 - 6

And look, s_p is in there! Let's lynch him. Or anyone else within that group I think. No, not BA. No, not Nik. Preferably not xeiron (meta, good at setup/role/theory analysis).

[Robz888]

Vote: Scotty

[A Drowned Kernel]

I've found scott very difficult to read in the past, so I think that (and the lurking) make him a perfectly fine lynch.

Vote: Scott

[XerxesPraelor]

vote: chairs

Nike is less suspicious than robz to me.

[xeiron]

I think this is my arbitrary lynch pool based on vote counts.

A Drowned Kernel - 19
xeiron - 16
Nik - 14
scott_pilgrim - 10
jotheonah - 9
Beyond Awesome - 7
Robz888 - 6

And look, s_p is in there! Let's lynch him. Or anyone else within that group I think. No, not BA. No, not Nik. Preferably not xeiron (meta, good at setup/role/theory analysis).

Why did you exclude chairs and egorK from this list?

[EgorK]

Chairs has problmes with internet according to his posts in Dominion League

I found Nik behavior rather scummy, so Vote: Nik

[Nik]

Chairs has problmes with internet according to his posts in DominionLeague

I found Nik behavior rather scummy, so Vote: Nik

Oh. In that case, Vote: Scott for lurking.

[Voltaire]

I think this is my arbitrary lynch pool based on vote counts.

A Drowned Kernel - 19
xeiron - 16
Nik - 14
scott_pilgrim - 10
jotheonah - 9
Beyond Awesome - 7
Robz888 - 6

And look, s_p is in there! Let's lynch him. Or anyone else within that group I think. No, not BA. No, not Nik. Preferably not xeiron (meta, good at setup/role/theory analysis).

Why did you exclude chairs and egorK from this list?

I rarely/never include the lowest poster, and in a game this huge I made it the bottom two. It's somewhat arbitrary where to draw these lines. The idea is scum likes to blend in/be forgettable, not lurk egregiously.

[XerxesPraelor]

For reasons I'm not allowed to say, unvote. Now, vote: sp for sheepish reasons.

[jotheonah]

is there any possibility of mafia daychat in this setup?

[XerxesPraelor]

is there any possibility of mafia daychat in this setup?

That's an odd question. I'm pretty sure there isn't. Where did you get the idea from?

[jotheonah]

Thinking about the scenario in which scum!Robz lets himself get to L-2 and does and says nothing so that he can claim to be completely oblivious. It works better if he's coordinating with someone else to defend him.

I'm thinking this is town!Robz here who's legitimately disengaged with the game, though.

[Witherweaver]

Doing some rereading.

I agree with Axxle that it really looks like Nik is just hopping on the most popular wagons he sees, which is easy for scum to do.  I don't think I've played with Nik before, but I kinda followed along HoC and remember him doing things I wouldn't expect from town there, so maybe it's just his play style.  But even then, at best it's town playing in a way that doesn't benefit town, and at worst it's really scummy.

vote: Nik

Mmm. I was in HoC and found Nik pretty scummy in that, and I ended up mislynching him against Voltaire's reads--something that kind of screwed town over. However, I haven't really seen Nik ever get much suspicion in the games I've played in with him (2, I think). I think he deserves a little pressure, if at least, to start acting a little more townie if he's town.
vote: Nik

This says absolutely nothing about his play this game. Very little content or analysis.

vote:ichi

Hmm. Looks like OMGUS to me.
Anyway, I think I explained my vote on Nik fairly well. I believe he deserves some pressure. He's acting about the same in this game as he ever has (mildly scummy), and I think his wagon can give us some useful information. Why do you have a problem with this?

How is this OMGUS?  You talked about Nik, and not about TA at all, and TA interpreted something from your statement.  I don't get this.

And the same to the following:

Seriously. This post just reads vindictive to me. Look, sorry if I offended you. I was just expressing my opinion about what you posted.

[Robz888]

Thinking about the scenario in which scum!Robz lets himself get to L-2 and does and says nothing so that he can claim to be completely oblivious. It works better if he's coordinating with someone else to defend him.

I'm thinking this is town!Robz here who's legitimately disengaged with the game, though.

I mean, I was in DC last week, I've been extremely busy with IRL stuff, the end of Forum Survivor, and briefly there were three games going at once. This was the most daunting and least essential game.

[Witherweaver]

Thinking about the scenario in which scum!Robz lets himself get to L-2 and does and says nothing so that he can claim to be completely oblivious. It works better if he's coordinating with someone else to defend him.

I'm thinking this is town!Robz here who's legitimately disengaged with the game, though.

If you think the latter is the more likely case, why bother bringing up the other idea?

[Witherweaver]

Mmmmmmm I want to vote for all the "big" wagons!

So I noticed Voltaire pointed this out two posts before TA did his "I want to vote for awesomewagon but the awesomewagon is on town".  This makes TA's statement less of a "why did he bring up his love of wagons out of the blue?", and therefore reduces suspicion. 

Why did you want to vote for all the big wagons, Voltaire?

[Witherweaver]

I agree with Axxle that it really looks like Nik is just hopping on the most popular wagons he sees, which is easy for scum to do.  I don't think I've played with Nik before, but I kinda followed along HoC and remember him doing things I wouldn't expect from town there, so maybe it's just his play style.  But even then, at best it's town playing in a way that doesn't benefit town, and at worst it's really scummy.

vote: Nik

Mmm. I was in HoC and found Nik pretty scummy in that, and I ended up mislynching him against Voltaire's reads--something that kind of screwed town over. However, I haven't really seen Nik ever get much suspicion in the games I've played in with him (2, I think). I think he deserves a little pressure, if at least, to start acting a little more townie if he's town.
vote: Nik

Ichimaru, Do you think saying "I do not really suspect Nik, but votes to put pressure on him" is the best way to put pressure on Nik?

This is an excellent point.  Ichi's vote comes off as very hedged: "Hey, he's probably town here, but he's not playing like good town so my vote is justified."  It provides a convenient excuse if the Nik wagon took off and he ended up flipping town.

[jotheonah]

Thinking about the scenario in which scum!Robz lets himself get to L-2 and does and says nothing so that he can claim to be completely oblivious. It works better if he's coordinating with someone else to defend him.

I'm thinking this is town!Robz here who's legitimately disengaged with the game, though.

If you think the latter is the more likely case, why bother bringing up the other idea?

I'm a big believer in putting things out there that other people might do something else with. Also, I asked a question, someone asked me why I asked it, I answered, etc.

[Witherweaver]

Thinking about the scenario in which scum!Robz lets himself get to L-2 and does and says nothing so that he can claim to be completely oblivious. It works better if he's coordinating with someone else to defend him.

I'm thinking this is town!Robz here who's legitimately disengaged with the game, though.

If you think the latter is the more likely case, why bother bringing up the other idea?

I'm a big believer in putting things out there that other people might do something else with. Also, I asked a question, someone asked me why I asked it, I answered, etc.

My referring to "bringing up the other idea" was to your original posting of your question, which I didn't see as in response to anything, not for the explanation to Xerxes' question.

[Voltaire]

Mmmmmmm I want to vote for all the "big" wagons!

So I noticed Voltaire pointed this out two posts before TA did his "I want to vote for awesomewagon but the awesomewagon is on town".  This makes TA's statement less of a "why did he bring up his love of wagons out of the blue?", and therefore reduces suspicion. 

Why did you want to vote for all the big wagons, Voltaire?

Because I liked all the cases at the time.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Ichimaru

What I said before, and this post sets off a couple of bells for me:

Bah. I'm just being honest. I ride people, and then when they give me signs that they are town, I back off some.

There's an argument that being too easily convinced of other player's towniness is a scum trait. Scum has to fake reads on people, and when a scum player puts out "scumreads" that are then responded to, it's hard to gauge whether the response would convince you as town, because you already know the person's alignment.

I can see the logic behind this argument. Truth is, I haven't really found anyone really scummy so far. There have been a few people I've had mild scumreads on, pushed them, and they've responded well enough. In a setup this large, I think it could be easier for scum to hide just in the sheer number of players (and low participation players) to avoid attention.
It makes things different as well, in that if there are multiple scumteams running around, they can't say for sure that someone is town, because they wouldn't know if they weren't part of their particular scum faction.
Isn't it town's job to push people and gauge reactions? You are right that I have backed off after minimal response, but I am town in this case. Trying to have interactions with the most people and pushing each one I find a little suspicious is my response to a setup this size.

PPE: 2

Bolding is mine.  The way this is said makes it seem like it comes from someone on one of said scum teams.

Also, "Isn't it town's job to push people and gauge reactions?" is kind of like "But I'm acting like town!". 

[Witherweaver]

Mmmmmmm I want to vote for all the "big" wagons!

So I noticed Voltaire pointed this out two posts before TA did his "I want to vote for awesomewagon but the awesomewagon is on town".  This makes TA's statement less of a "why did he bring up his love of wagons out of the blue?", and therefore reduces suspicion. 

Why did you want to vote for all the big wagons, Voltaire?

Because I liked all the cases at the time.

One of those was Axxle, but he received a pardon.  Do you still like any of the other cases?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Doing some rereading.

I agree with Axxle that it really looks like Nik is just hopping on the most popular wagons he sees, which is easy for scum to do.  I don't think I've played with Nik before, but I kinda followed along HoC and remember him doing things I wouldn't expect from town there, so maybe it's just his play style.  But even then, at best it's town playing in a way that doesn't benefit town, and at worst it's really scummy.

vote: Nik

Mmm. I was in HoC and found Nik pretty scummy in that, and I ended up mislynching him against Voltaire's reads--something that kind of screwed town over. However, I haven't really seen Nik ever get much suspicion in the games I've played in with him (2, I think). I think he deserves a little pressure, if at least, to start acting a little more townie if he's town.
vote: Nik

This says absolutely nothing about his play this game. Very little content or analysis.

vote:ichi

Hmm. Looks like OMGUS to me.
Anyway, I think I explained my vote on Nik fairly well. I believe he deserves some pressure. He's acting about the same in this game as he ever has (mildly scummy), and I think his wagon can give us some useful information. Why do you have a problem with this?

How is this OMGUS?  You talked about Nik, and not about TA at all, and TA interpreted something from your statement.  I don't get this.

And the same to the following:

Seriously. This post just reads vindictive to me. Look, sorry if I offended you. I was just expressing my opinion about what you posted.

I had been riding TA relatively hard, and some of his responses made me feel like he was ticked. If you go back, he responded to this and clarified that I was misinterpreting his behavior--although he didn't seem to think my interpretation was that irrational or anything, it was just misguided.

[Witherweaver]

Oh, you were referring to the previous discussion about his comments on the Axxle wagon.  I see.

[jotheonah]

Thinking about the scenario in which scum!Robz lets himself get to L-2 and does and says nothing so that he can claim to be completely oblivious. It works better if he's coordinating with someone else to defend him.

I'm thinking this is town!Robz here who's legitimately disengaged with the game, though.

If you think the latter is the more likely case, why bother bringing up the other idea?

I'm a big believer in putting things out there that other people might do something else with. Also, I asked a question, someone asked me why I asked it, I answered, etc.

My referring to "bringing up the other idea" was to your original posting of your question, which I didn't see as in response to anything, not for the explanation to Xerxes' question.

WHat's your point? Not everything has to be responding to something else.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Vote: Ichimaru

What I said before, and this post sets off a couple of bells for me:

Bah. I'm just being honest. I ride people, and then when they give me signs that they are town, I back off some.

There's an argument that being too easily convinced of other player's towniness is a scum trait. Scum has to fake reads on people, and when a scum player puts out "scumreads" that are then responded to, it's hard to gauge whether the response would convince you as town, because you already know the person's alignment.

I can see the logic behind this argument. Truth is, I haven't really found anyone really scummy so far. There have been a few people I've had mild scumreads on, pushed them, and they've responded well enough. In a setup this large, I think it could be easier for scum to hide just in the sheer number of players (and low participation players) to avoid attention.
It makes things different as well, in that if there are multiple scumteams running around, they can't say for sure that someone is town, because they wouldn't know if they weren't part of their particular scum faction.
Isn't it town's job to push people and gauge reactions? You are right that I have backed off after minimal response, but I am town in this case. Trying to have interactions with the most people and pushing each one I find a little suspicious is my response to a setup this size.

PPE: 2

Bolding is mine.  The way this is said makes it seem like it comes from someone on one of said scum teams.

Also, "Isn't it town's job to push people and gauge reactions?" is kind of like "But I'm acting like town!".

Hmm. I missed this post. I don't feel that either of your points make much sense. Earlier, someone (Xeiron I think) mentioned the likelihood of multiple scumteams when I was asking questions about the setup. Also, why would the scumteams be aware of each other? I think it's most likely that they wouldn't, so your accusation of this "sounding like someone on one of the scumteams" means that you must think (know?) that they are aware of each other.
Secondly, this was a response to ADK where he was assuming that scum would know who was town; however, if there are multiple scumteams (which is likely from what I've gathered), this isn't true.

PPE: ww

[Voltaire]

Mmmmmmm I want to vote for all the "big" wagons!

So I noticed Voltaire pointed this out two posts before TA did his "I want to vote for awesomewagon but the awesomewagon is on town".  This makes TA's statement less of a "why did he bring up his love of wagons out of the blue?", and therefore reduces suspicion. 

Why did you want to vote for all the big wagons, Voltaire?

Because I liked all the cases at the time.

One of those was Axxle, but he received a pardon.  Do you still like any of the other cases?

I think Axxle is still scum, but I can't do anything about it today. I don't like Robz anymore, I forget what the other cases were.

You're making a good case on IG but I'm hesitant because D1 scum reads based on contradictions are just usually so bad...yours I think I like though? I would switch if IG got more popular.

[Witherweaver]

Thinking about the scenario in which scum!Robz lets himself get to L-2 and does and says nothing so that he can claim to be completely oblivious. It works better if he's coordinating with someone else to defend him.

I'm thinking this is town!Robz here who's legitimately disengaged with the game, though.

If you think the latter is the more likely case, why bother bringing up the other idea?

I'm a big believer in putting things out there that other people might do something else with. Also, I asked a question, someone asked me why I asked it, I answered, etc.

My referring to "bringing up the other idea" was to your original posting of your question, which I didn't see as in response to anything, not for the explanation to Xerxes' question.

WHat's your point? Not everything has to be responding to something else.

Because "Also, I asked a question, someone asked me why I asked it, I answered, etc." is an explanation of why you made the second post, not why you posted the first one.  But you explained why you posted the first one as well with "I'm a big believer in putting things out there that other people might do something else with.", so it's kind of moot.  I was just explaining because I thought there was a misinterpretation, I wasn't pressing the point further.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Ichimaru

What I said before, and this post sets off a couple of bells for me:

Bah. I'm just being honest. I ride people, and then when they give me signs that they are town, I back off some.

There's an argument that being too easily convinced of other player's towniness is a scum trait. Scum has to fake reads on people, and when a scum player puts out "scumreads" that are then responded to, it's hard to gauge whether the response would convince you as town, because you already know the person's alignment.

I can see the logic behind this argument. Truth is, I haven't really found anyone really scummy so far. There have been a few people I've had mild scumreads on, pushed them, and they've responded well enough. In a setup this large, I think it could be easier for scum to hide just in the sheer number of players (and low participation players) to avoid attention.
It makes things different as well, in that if there are multiple scumteams running around, they can't say for sure that someone is town, because they wouldn't know if they weren't part of their particular scum faction.
Isn't it town's job to push people and gauge reactions? You are right that I have backed off after minimal response, but I am town in this case. Trying to have interactions with the most people and pushing each one I find a little suspicious is my response to a setup this size.

PPE: 2

Bolding is mine.  The way this is said makes it seem like it comes from someone on one of said scum teams.

Also, "Isn't it town's job to push people and gauge reactions?" is kind of like "But I'm acting like town!".

Hmm. I missed this post. I don't feel that either of your points make much sense. Earlier, someone (Xeiron I think) mentioned the likelihood of multiple scumteams when I was asking questions about the setup. Also, why would the scumteams be aware of each other? I think it's most likely that they wouldn't, so your accusation of this "sounding like someone on one of the scumteams" means that you must think (know?) that they are aware of each other.
Secondly, this was a response to ADK where he was assuming that scum would know who was town; however, if there are multiple scumteams (which is likely from what I've gathered), this isn't true.

PPE: ww

I don't understand what you're saying about the scumteams being aware of each other.  Where did that come from?

[jotheonah]

You're making a good case on IG but I'm hesitant because D1 scum reads based on contradictions are just usually so bad...yours I think I like though? I would switch if IG got more popular.

Let me help you with that.

Vote: IG

Here's something circumstantial. He's got RL stuff going on (finals) but he's still at the top of the post count tower, and he's fairly new to the game. A new person posting a lot is a null tell, but I find myself more motivated to post in general in a game where I'm scum.

There's also "but I am town in this case." Which just sounds very forced and unnatural.

[Ichimaru Gin]

ADK made some point about scum knowing who was town.

I made that point that since it seemed likely that there were multiple scumteams (from what Xeiron had said and what I gather from the setup), that this would not be the case. Why would scumteams be aware of each other and know who scum in other factions were? My guess is they wouldn't, therefore they don't really know who is town since they don't know if there are other scumteams out there. So making gambits on someone being town is more risky for them, as they could flip as scum from a different faction.

You took this statement as something that "sounds like it would come from a member of one of said scumteams", which makes no sense to me for reasons I have already outlined in my last post.

So basically you are finding me scummy for paying attention to the setup and trying to make what I believe to be rational inferences. This gives me more of a town-read on ADK I think, since I'd expect scum would discuss other factions and thus be more aware. Unless that was just a really good fake town-slip.

PPE: jotheonoah

[AndrewisFTTW]

Vote Count 1.8


Robz888 (2): chairs, Twistedarcher

Nik (3): Axxle, scott_pilgrim, EgorK

Beyond Awesome (1): Teproc

scott_pilgrim (5): Voltaire, Robz888, A Drowned Kernal, Nik, XerxesPraelor

chairs (1): Xeiron

Ichimaru Gin (2): Witherweaver, jotheonah

Not Voting (2): Beyond Awesome, Ichimaru Gin


With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.
Day 1 ends on Wed. May 21 at 11 PM FT.

[jotheonah]

IG: apologies if I'm wrong about you being new, I obv. don't keep up with all the games.

[Robz888]

You're making a good case on IG but I'm hesitant because D1 scum reads based on contradictions are just usually so bad...yours I think I like though? I would switch if IG got more popular.

Let me help you with that.

Vote: IG

Here's something circumstantial. He's got RL stuff going on (finals) but he's still at the top of the post count tower, and he's fairly new to the game. A new person posting a lot is a null tell, but I find myself more motivated to post in general in a game where I'm scum.

There's also "but I am town in this case." Which just sounds very forced and unnatural.

I don't think he's really new enough for this to hold, though. This is like at least his third serious game.

[Witherweaver]

ADK made some point about scum knowing who was town.

I made that point that since it seemed likely that there were multiple scumteams (from what Xeiron had said and what I gather from the setup), that this would not be the case. Why would scumteams be aware of each other and know who scum in other factions were? My guess is they wouldn't, therefore they don't really know who is town since they don't know if there are other scumteams out there. So making gambits on someone being town is more risky for them, as they could flip as scum from a different faction.

You took this statement as something that "sounds like it would come from a member of one of said scumteams", which makes no sense to me for reasons I have already outlined in my last post.

So basically you are finding me scummy for paying attention to the setup and trying to make what I believe to be rational inferences. This gives me more of a town-read on ADK I think, since I'd expect scum would discuss other factions and thus be more aware. Unless that was just a really good fake town-slip.

PPE: jotheonoah

Okay yes, that I understand.  I'm not disagreeing with the point made.  This is a read thing.  The way you said it makes me think that you're coming from an "inside" perspective and not an "outside" one. 

[Ichimaru Gin]

ADK made some point about scum knowing who was town.

I made that point that since it seemed likely that there were multiple scumteams (from what Xeiron had said and what I gather from the setup), that this would not be the case. Why would scumteams be aware of each other and know who scum in other factions were? My guess is they wouldn't, therefore they don't really know who is town since they don't know if there are other scumteams out there. So making gambits on someone being town is more risky for them, as they could flip as scum from a different faction.

You took this statement as something that "sounds like it would come from a member of one of said scumteams", which makes no sense to me for reasons I have already outlined in my last post.

So basically you are finding me scummy for paying attention to the setup and trying to make what I believe to be rational inferences. This gives me more of a town-read on ADK I think, since I'd expect scum would discuss other factions and thus be more aware. Unless that was just a really good fake town-slip.

PPE: jotheonoah

Okay yes, that I understand.  I'm not disagreeing with the point made.  This is a read thing.  The way you said it makes me think that you're coming from an "inside" perspective and not an "outside" one.

Don't you see that the same could be said of you? So are we arguing over whether or not we think that theoretical multiple faction scumteams are aware of each other? Because from what I've gathered you think that the scumteams are aware of each other--which to me would be something only scum could know. Wheras my argument is just an inference. (I'm underling this because I think it's a very important point).
Doesn't it seem pretty obvious that they wouldn't be. I mean, I have no idea about precedents to this, but it makes sense to me. I mean, it's not like the mafia normally get a message telling them who the SK is (in a theoretical setup).
Can anyone who has been in a game with multiple scumteams confirm/disprove this?

[Witherweaver]

Because from what I've gathered you think that the scumteams are aware of each other

Huh?  How does anything I said indicate that? 

[Ichimaru Gin]

Because from what I've gathered you think that the scumteams are aware of each other

Huh?  How does anything I said indicate that?

Well you seem to be arguing with my theory--or at least finding it scummy.
Both of which don't make much sense to me. You seem to be completely ruling out the (true) option which is that I am town who is just analyzing the setup.

[Witherweaver]

We're not arguing over whether we think theoretical scum team factions are aware of each other, and I'm not sure why  you think we are.

[Witherweaver]

Because from what I've gathered you think that the scumteams are aware of each other

Huh?  How does anything I said indicate that?

Well you seem to be arguing with my theory--or at least finding it scummy.
Both of which don't make much sense to me. You seem to be completely ruling out the (true) option which is that I am town who is just analyzing the setup.

So I guess I'm bad at explaining myself.  I'm not arguing with your theory, and I'm not ruling out any option.  I realize the statement could have come from town.  It also could have come from scum.  I got an impression of the latter.  This wasn't the one thing that made me vote, just something I noticed among others.  And it's a "feeling" thing instead of a "fact" thing.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Because from what I've gathered you think that the scumteams are aware of each other

Huh?  How does anything I said indicate that?

Well you seem to be arguing with my theory--or at least finding it scummy.
Both of which don't make much sense to me. You seem to be completely ruling out the (true) option which is that I am town who is just analyzing the setup.

So I guess I'm bad at explaining myself.  I'm not arguing with your theory, and I'm not ruling out any option.  I realize the statement could have come from town.  It also could have come from scum.  I got an impression of the latter.  This wasn't the one thing that made me vote, just something I noticed among others.  And it's a "feeling" thing instead of a "fact" thing.

K
that's fine. I'm not sure if others on the wagon feel the same way, but whatever. I've explained myself as best as I can right now, so hopefully people actually read it before voting.


@jothenoah. That's ok. It's a lot to keep track of. I don't have much time for games I'm not in.

Really though. I've gotten quite a bit better since first playing, even though I've had only town-roles since my first game. why would I conspicuously place myself at #1 post count as scum?
I think it's established that I post a lot as town when I have the IRL time to spare. I did in HoC at least. And in another (ongoing) game as well.
Anyway, I'm heading out to my econ final. Be back in a few hours.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also, in making statements about my post-count meta. All that I am saying is that I have been proven to do this as town. Sure, I could be pirating this behavior as scum to try to inflate my credibility, but it is important to see that this is what I've done as town as well.

[Axxle]

Ichimaru seems town to me. What's the case on sp? Lurking? I can think of much bigger culprits. Nik basically disappeared after I started attacking him.

[Axxle]

Ichimaru seems town to me. What's the case on sp? Lurking? I can think of much bigger culprits. Nik basically disappeared after I started attacking him.

Maybe not, but he's still doing more of the same

[Beyond Awesome]

I honestly have no idea who anyone is. This whole meta meta environment is intriguing. I keep reading over the posts, but I have no idea what to make of anything.

[Voltaire]

Ichimaru seems town to me. What's the case on sp? Lurking? I can think of much bigger culprits. Nik basically disappeared after I started attacking him.

Not lurking, blending in.

I'd be lynching you if I could.

[Axxle]

Ichimaru seems town to me. What's the case on sp? Lurking? I can think of much bigger culprits. Nik basically disappeared after I started attacking him.

Not lurking, blending in.

I'd be lynching you if I could.

My next post immediately after that one took back the 'lurking' claim. Maybe I wasn't clear but what I meant was "Maybe he's not lurking, but he's doing more of the same scummy sheeping" or blending as you put it.

[Voltaire]

Ichimaru seems town to me. What's the case on sp? Lurking? I can think of much bigger culprits. Nik basically disappeared after I started attacking him.

Not lurking, blending in.

I'd be lynching you if I could.

My next post immediately after that one took back the 'lurking' claim. Maybe I wasn't clear but what I meant was "Maybe he's not lurking, but he's doing more of the same scummy sheeping" or blending as you put it.

I thought it was one of your jokes that I didn't get. I see now.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I honestly have no idea who anyone is. This whole meta meta environment is intriguing. I keep reading over the posts, but I have no idea what to make of anything.

It gets easier once we get some flips, then you can go back and analyze people's interactions with knowledge of their alignments.

We're closing in on deadline.

Would like to lynch: Axxle but you know. Still feeling the scum vibe from WW, especially with his little back-and-forth with Ichi, like they might be scum on separate teams, but I'm starting to feel like I always get the scum vibe from WW, and no one else seems interested. Ichi also, a lot of his posts seem calculated in a scummy way.

Would be okay lynching: Any and all lurkers, scott, chairs, etc. Maybe not Robz.

Don't want to lynch: Voltaire seems very towny here. I don't think I would lynch Teproc either. I'm leaning town on Joth, not super strong but let's lynch somewhere else today.

There's other players but man there's so many people in this game.

[xeiron]

I do not buy the case in Ichimaru.
It seems to me like people is finding scummy excerpts in his posts, not because his posts are particular scummy, but because he has written so many posts that there are simply more to find.
At least I did not get a scummy impression while doing a re-read of him.

[xeiron]

I am fine with a lurker lynch.

vote: Scott Pilgrim {L-3}
Since that is the biggest wagon.

[Axxle]

vote: Scott Pilgrim {L-2}

[Teproc]

Why scott_pilgrim more than any other lurker ? I did a quick reread of his posts (really don't have time for an actual reread right now) and he seems somewhat townie to me.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Why scott_pilgrim more than any other lurker ? I did a quick reread of his posts (really don't have time for an actual reread right now) and he seems somewhat townie to me.

Yeah. I don't really see him as that scummy. Plus he said that his internet would be spotty til Saturday.

[Voltaire]

Why scott_pilgrim more than any other lurker ? I did a quick reread of his posts (really don't have time for an actual reread right now) and he seems somewhat townie to me.

Check out my post involving post counts.

[Teproc]

Why scott_pilgrim more than any other lurker ? I did a quick reread of his posts (really don't have time for an actual reread right now) and he seems somewhat townie to me.

Check out my post involving post counts.

First of all, I think you rely too much on post counts. I haven't been active this game, yet I'm pretty high in there.

Secondly, your case is that you forgot he existed ? I mean yes, scum likes to blend in, but I don't think that's enough.

[Voltaire]

Post counts are a fine and useful tool. They're an amazing starting point, incentive scum to trip themselves up, and are a wonderful proxy for alignment that I would wager is near-unbeaten for D1 success.

So. Who are you voting for, and why?

There are probably 5 or 6 people I would lynch. I am advocating for my top choice, but by no means my only choice.

[Voltaire]

Secondly, your case is that you forgot he existed ? I mean yes, scum likes to blend in, but I don't think that's enough.

This is how I nailed faust in NM4. I wish I'd pushed it harder. I D1 POE'd him, and he had a scummy reaction ("that's it?" or something to the sort). The case was that there was no case. That's actually a case on D1.

[Voltaire]

And I don't mean I actually POE'd him, I mean I did my D1 POE process, which is of course not the same as later days POE.

[Teproc]

Post counts are a fine and useful tool. They're an amazing starting point, incentive scum to trip themselves up, and are a wonderful proxy for alignment that I would wager is near-unbeaten for D1 success.

So. Who are you voting for, and why?

There are probably 5 or 6 people I would lynch. I am advocating for my top choice, but by no means my only choice.

I'm just surprised this is your top choice, given how light a suspicion it is.

I'm voting for Beyond Awesome, I thought his sheepy vote on Axxle was textbook newbie scum. I still have to do a reread which is hard because I'm in my finals week right now...

I get that my vote isn't very useful where it is, and the deadline is tomorrow right ? So I'll change it, but I doubt S_P is our best option here.

PPE : Even on day 1, this is a nothing case. There have been five or six stronger cases in this game already. You don't like lynching active people, that's fine, but still.

[Voltaire]

D1 cases are usually BAD! They're great on later days for interactions but horrible for choosing a lynch on D1. I wildly disagree that there are "5 or 6" stronger cases.

[Axxle]

Post counts are a fine and useful tool. They're an amazing starting point, incentive scum to trip themselves up, and are a wonderful proxy for alignment that I would wager is near-unbeaten for D1 success.

So. Who are you voting for, and why?

There are probably 5 or 6 people I would lynch. I am advocating for my top choice, but by no means my only choice.

I'm just surprised this is your top choice, given how light a suspicion it is.

I'm voting for Beyond Awesome, I thought his sheepy vote on Axxle was textbook newbie scum. I still have to do a reread which is hard because I'm in my finals week right now...

I get that my vote isn't very useful where it is, and the deadline is tomorrow right ? So I'll change it, but I doubt S_P is our best option here.

PPE : Even on day 1, this is a nothing case. There have been five or six stronger cases in this game already. You don't like lynching active people, that's fine, but still.

Maybe, but I'd rather lynch him tomorrow because I don't want to scare brand new players away <.< >.> (>'-')> <('-'<) ^(' - ')^ <('-'<) (>'-')>

[Witherweaver]

D1 cases are usually BAD! They're great on later days for interactions but horrible for choosing a lynch on D1. I wildly disagree that there are "5 or 6" stronger cases.

Hmm... so we should make cases on Day 1 but not actually follow through with them?

[Voltaire]

D1 cases are usually BAD! They're great on later days for interactions but horrible for choosing a lynch on D1. I wildly disagree that there are "5 or 6" stronger cases.

Hmm... so we should make cases on Day 1 but not actually follow through with them?

The traditional way of making cases (ie searching for contradictions, analyzing votes) on D1 is terrible. It has a proven track record of being terrible on D1. I advocate a different way of making cases on D1. I do not advocate what you said, and I have no idea why you would think that.

[Witherweaver]

D1 cases are usually BAD! They're great on later days for interactions but horrible for choosing a lynch on D1. I wildly disagree that there are "5 or 6" stronger cases.

Hmm... so we should make cases on Day 1 but not actually follow through with them?

The traditional way of making cases (ie searching for contradictions, analyzing votes) on D1 is terrible. It has a proven track record of being terrible on D1. I advocate a different way of making cases on D1. I do not advocate what you said, and I have no idea why you would think that.

Well you said they're terrible for finding scum on day 1, yet they're very useful later on.

[Axxle]

Volt, why do you want to still vote me when your original reason was demonstrably false?

[Voltaire]

D1 cases are usually BAD! They're great on later days for interactions but horrible for choosing a lynch on D1. I wildly disagree that there are "5 or 6" stronger cases.

Hmm... so we should make cases on Day 1 but not actually follow through with them?

The traditional way of making cases (ie searching for contradictions, analyzing votes) on D1 is terrible. It has a proven track record of being terrible on D1. I advocate a different way of making cases on D1. I do not advocate what you said, and I have no idea why you would think that.

Well you said they're terrible for finding scum on day 1, yet they're very useful later on.

Correct. Useful in that the same method is good D2 onwards, and anything that causes posting on D1 is good. Not best, but good.

[Voltaire]

Volt, why do you want to still vote me when your original reason was demonstrably false?

That you discarded Mountebank?

[Axxle]

Volt, why do you want to still vote me when your original reason was demonstrably false?

That you discarded Mountebank?

That I didn't keep an obviously scummy card.

[Voltaire]

Volt, why do you want to still vote me when your original reason was demonstrably false?

That you discarded Mountebank?

That I didn't keep an obviously scummy card.

Argh. Right. I just really want to lynch you?

[Axxle]

Acceptable answer.

[mail-mi]

Vote Count 1.9

Robz888 (2): chairs, Twistedarcher
Nik (2): scott_pilgrim, EgorK
Beyond Awesome (1): Teproc
scott_pilgrim (7): Voltaire, Robz888, A Drowned Kernal, Nik, XerxesPraelor, xeiron, Axxle
Ichimaru Gin (2): Witherweaver, jotheonah

Not Voting (2): Beyond Awesome, Ichimaru Gin

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.
Day 1 ends on Wed. May 21 at 11 PM FT. That's in a bit more than 24 hours

[Voltaire]

BA, IG, we need you guys to vote somewhere.

[Ichimaru Gin]

BA, IG, we need you guys to vote somewhere.

Oh whoa! I lost track of the deadline. My vote will be here shortly

[Ichimaru Gin]

Except scott is the only person remotely close to being lynched. Do you think there's a chance of someone different happening today?
I will vote for scott if we are super near the deadline and need a lynch, but he's not really my first choice.
If we're lynching a lurker, I think I'd prefer chairs.

[Axxle]

I'm willing to move back to Nik if you think that's a good vote. I'm only on sp because of the deadline.

chairs is VLA so I don't like him as a vote.

[Axxle]

Vote: Nik

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'm willing to move back to Nik if you think that's a good vote. I'm only on sp because of the deadline.

chairs is VLA so I don't like him as a vote.

but isn't scott the same thing?

I am also willing to move to Nik.

PPE: 1

[Witherweaver]

Deadline is tomorrow night, not tonight, right?

[Nik]

Except scott is the only person remotely close to being lynched. Do you think there's a chance of someone different happening today?
I will vote for scott if we are super near the deadline and need a lynch, but he's not really my first choice.
If we're lynching a lurker, I think I'd prefer chairs.

Not Chairs! Remember, he said he had Internet problems. I think Scott_Pilgrim and BA would be better canidatates.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Deadline is tomorrow night, not tonight, right?

Yeah. A bit more than 24 hours from now.

[Axxle]

I'm willing to move back to Nik if you think that's a good vote. I'm only on sp because of the deadline.

chairs is VLA so I don't like him as a vote.

but isn't scott the same thing?

I am also willing to move to Nik.

PPE: 1

Kinda, but he's also had more time to react to his wagon.

[Axxle]

Except scott is the only person remotely close to being lynched. Do you think there's a chance of someone different happening today?
I will vote for scott if we are super near the deadline and need a lynch, but he's not really my first choice.
If we're lynching a lurker, I think I'd prefer chairs.

Not Chairs! Remember, he said he had Internet problems. I think Scott_Pilgrim and BA would be better canidatates.

Ok Nik. I'm not going to ask you to claim your card just yet but can you reveal your alignment?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Except scott is the only person remotely close to being lynched. Do you think there's a chance of someone different happening today?
I will vote for scott if we are super near the deadline and need a lynch, but he's not really my first choice.
If we're lynching a lurker, I think I'd prefer chairs.

Not Chairs! Remember, he said he had Internet problems. I think Scott_Pilgrim and BA would be better canidatates.

I think it was scott who was having problems with his internet (maybe chairs too). I just checked the VLA thread, and yeah sp posted about having internet problems.

[Teproc]

I don't like any of the current wagons. I'd actually prefer no lynch at this point.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I don't like any of the current wagons. I'd actually prefer no lynch at this point.

Mm. I'm with you at this point, although I didn't consider a no-lynch. This game is pretty huge and maybe things we'll be easier once we've got a smaller player pool and some nightkills/investigations/actions whatever, to work with.

[A Drowned Kernel]

How is no lynch a good idea? If we are facing multiple scum factions then town could lose the majority very quickly, even a lurker lynch gives us some information and interaction.

[Teproc]

How is no lynch a good idea? If we are facing multiple scum factions then town could lose the majority very quickly, even a lurker lynch gives us some information and interaction.

No lynch is not a good idea in and of itself, but I like no lynch better than any of the current lynch candidates.

[Teproc]

Is anyone interested in a XP lynch ? I have no real case (I will take the time to reread tomorrow, promise), but I have a scum read on him and it feels like no one's ever mentioned him in this game.

[Nik]

Except scott is the only person remotely close to being lynched. Do you think there's a chance of someone different happening today?
I will vote for scott if we are super near the deadline and need a lynch, but he's not really my first choice.
If we're lynching a lurker, I think I'd prefer chairs.

Not Chairs! Remember, he said he had Internet problems. I think Scott_Pilgrim and BA would be better canidatates.

Ok Nik. I'm not going to ask you to claim your card just yet but can you reveal your alignment?

Town.

[Nik]

Also, vote: Chairs.

[Axxle]

How is no lynch a good idea? If we are facing multiple scum factions then town could lose the majority very quickly, even a lurker lynch gives us some information and interaction.

No lynch is not a good idea in and of itself, but I like no lynch better than any of the current lynch candidates.

Why?

[Axxle]

Except scott is the only person remotely close to being lynched. Do you think there's a chance of someone different happening today?
I will vote for scott if we are super near the deadline and need a lynch, but he's not really my first choice.
If we're lynching a lurker, I think I'd prefer chairs.

Not Chairs! Remember, he said he had Internet problems. I think Scott_Pilgrim and BA would be better canidatates.

Ok Nik. I'm not going to ask you to claim your card just yet but can you reveal your alignment?

Town.

Shoot!

[Teproc]

How is no lynch a good idea? If we are facing multiple scum factions then town could lose the majority very quickly, even a lurker lynch gives us some information and interaction.

No lynch is not a good idea in and of itself, but I like no lynch better than any of the current lynch candidates.

Why?

I think all these people are town. Nik is playing the exact same way he played as town in HoC. Robz is completely uninvolved which is generally a sign of town!Robz, S_P had a townie reaction to the TA wagon (even though I disagreed)... who else is there again ? Ichimaru I think, who is by far my strongest town read in this game.

I guess I would actually take a Robz lynch over no lynch because he's inactive for RL reasons more than in-game reasons.

vote : Robz

[Twistedarcher]

I am getting a scummy vibe from Teproc that's making me want to lynch Scott

Vote: Scott

[Ichimaru Gin]

I am getting a scummy vibe from Teproc that's making me want to lynch Scott

Vote: Scott

Ok. Is this because Teproc doesn't want to lynch Scott, you want to lynch him?

I'm going to vote: Robz for now. He has pretty much disappeared, and he lurked early one in my first game when I was his scumpartner. Although he has RL reasons for doing so this time?

I'd prefer pretty much anyone over SP. I feel like there's just nothing there to warrant the votes he has. And has anyone checked the VLA thread, he said that he would have spotty internet, but it seems like everyone just chooses to ignore this.

[Teproc]

I am getting a scummy vibe from Teproc that's making me want to lynch Scott

Vote: Scott

I get the reasoning, but this is basically like picking scum teams on day 1. If you think I'm scum, you should start by lynching me.

[Twistedarcher]

I am getting a scummy vibe from Teproc that's making me want to lynch Scott

Vote: Scott

I get the reasoning, but this is basically like picking scum teams on day 1. If you think I'm scum, you should start by lynching me.

except he has 7 votes now and you have 0 and deadline is tomorrow.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, I am going to vote for Nik. I don't think the evidence is compelling enough for Scott or RobZ. I made a list of people I felt might be scum and Nik is on that list and already has two votes against him, so that is why I am voting for him rather than someone with 0 votes.

Vote: Nik

[Nik]

Okay, I am going to vote for Nik. I don't think the evidence is compelling enough for Scott or RobZ. I made a list of people I felt might be scum and Nik is on that list and already has two votes against him, so that is why I am voting for him rather than someone with 0 votes.

Vote: Nik

So even if you thought someone was scummy, if they had 0 votes on them, you wouldn't vote?
Who are the other people on your list?

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, I am going to vote for Nik. I don't think the evidence is compelling enough for Scott or RobZ. I made a list of people I felt might be scum and Nik is on that list and already has two votes against him, so that is why I am voting for him rather than someone with 0 votes.

Vote: Nik

So even if you thought someone was scummy, if they had 0 votes on them, you wouldn't vote?
Who are the other people on your list?

WW, Joth, and Volt are a bit suspicious to me. I think TA and Ichi are town. I am having a hard time getting a reading on anybody though.

[Beyond Awesome]

To be honest, I am more suspicious of people than not. I also find ADK and Xeiron to be a bit suspicious to me as well.

[Witherweaver]

It feels like we skipped Random Voting Stage and have moved to Random Lynching Stage.  I think Volt is town, I think Xerxes is town.  Less certain on Teproc and TA and Xeiron, but leaning there.  I think Ichi is a good choice but I've never seen scum Ichi.  I'd be okay with Nik, I'm at best null on him and would be strong scum if I weren't tempered by my previous experience with him.

I actually believe Axxle kept Governor more than I believe he kept Nobles.  I don't know why.  If it wasn't for that I would think he's scumforsure™.

I wouldn't oppose anyone except Volt and Xerxes, I think.

[Witherweaver]

Teproc, why do you think Ichi is so town?  He doesn't feel like the town Ichi I've seen before.

Also, why is Nik voting for Chairs?  Wasn't he the one that made the comment about Chairs being away and not a good choice?

[Voltaire]

I am getting a scummy vibe from Teproc that's making me want to lynch Scott

Vote: Scott

I had a scummy read on Teproc earlier today, decided I must have been wrong, and then I catch up on the thread and he's still scummy.

Would lynch him if Scott doesn't happen.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Vote Count 1.10


Robz888 (3): chairs, Teproc, Ichimaru Gin

Nik (4): scott_pilgrim, EgorK, Axxle, Beyond Awesome

scott_pilgrim (6): Voltaire, Robz888, A Drowned Kernal, XerxesPraelor, xeiron, Twistedarcher

Ichimaru Gin (2): Witherweaver, jotheonah

chairs (1): Nik


With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.
Day 1 ends on Wed. May 21 at 11 PM FT.

[Ichimaru Gin]

He doesn't feel like the town Ichi I've seen before?

Could you explain this in a little more detail?

[Axxle]

I've never played with iGin before in a nonbastard game, his motivation here seems incredibly town though. (minus the overreaction to his wagon)

[Witherweaver]

He doesn't feel like the town Ichi I've seen before?

Could you explain this in a little more detail?

It seems like you've been posting a lot, but without as much content as I'm used to.  Like you feel like you have to come up with something to post. 

And I pointed out multiple things earlier, and you only responded to one of them and it wasn't even what I was saying, and it seemed to distract from the others.  Probably the biggest was the "I'm acting like town!" statement.  I know when I've been scum and anyone votes for me, my first reaction is "but Im acting so townie!" because  very conscious of how hard i'm trying to act town.  I always think this and resist saying it.

It's hard to describe why you get an impression that you get.  The other games I was in with you it was like you were just trying to figure out who's who and what's what.  Here it feels like you're trying to seem like you are.

That's the best explanation I have.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hmm. Well I never said "but I'm acting so town!". Those are words that you put in my mouth.
In the context of a different post I acknowledged a theory's general validity, but then said "I am town in this instance".

I'm only "acting" like I'm trying to figure stuff out? Look, I've been posting, voting people and analyzing the setup. You found my analysis of the setup scummy for reasons that are still semi-vague.
I will reiterate a previous point. Seriously, why would I as scum place myself conspicuously at #1 on the post count list? Why would I be working hard to interact with a bunch of people so I could provide a bunch of information for town after I flip?

I can see your point about not as much content. There hasn't really been much that has happened all day. A ton of people have been low activity. There was the Axxle wagon which got governed--and I think the day has lost a lot of steam since then. But then I talk about the setup and make what I think are some important observations, and you find me scummy for it. It's kind of like you're tunneling me.
It's not like I can really argue against or disprove your "feelings" about my alignment.

[Witherweaver]

Hm. That's an issue too.  When the post count was posted you were surprised that you were so high, because you expected to be busy. But you're also using your high post count to indicate your towniness.  "Why would I as scum place myself..." Implies that you would be consciously trying to post a lot, when you yourself implied you weren't aware of how much you were posting.

And the "but I'm so town!" thing is how I read what you said, I know you didn't say those words.  But I mean, that's how I interpreted it. 

I don't find "why would I do this as scum?" very compelling either, because again as scum youre looking for things that you would do as town and not as scum.

[Ichimaru Gin]

But would I have expressed this surprise as scum? (to use that argument again, I guess)

It just feels like you have this presupposition that I'm scum, and interpreting everything I do as falling on that side, while ignoring the rest.
Uh. Well, I've said what I've said. And wouldn't that go against how "calculated" things are. I mean, if I was scum again, I'm sure I'd play it a lot differently than the last time (which was my first game, so I was super inexperienced).

It's always interesting to me, because I've defended myself very heavily against every wagon that's ever formed on me as town, but that's normally what people find me the most scummy for. Whatever. I've said my peace.

Also when did townie things become scummy things? It's a lot of WIFOM. Like "he's the top on the post count, so he must be scum trying to appear super, super townie!" When in reality, scum likes to hide in the middle if they can, where they aren't noticed. So it really comes down to how you want to see things. There's some information, and you can interpret multiple ways. You choose to see a lot of semi-neutral behavior as scummy.

[Beyond Awesome]

Sorry. I have a quick and probably stupid question. I have seen OMGUS come up a few times. What does that mean? Also, what does WIFOM mean? And, are there any other abbreviations I should know about?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Sorry. I have a quick and probably stupid question. I have seen OMGUS come up a few times. What does that mean? Also, what does WIFOM mean? And, are there any other abbreviations I should know about?

Oh no. Feel free to ask any/all questions. I was completely lost my first game and asked a bunch of questions.

WIFOM means "Wine in front of me". It means that an argument is circular, and really doesn't have a solid foundation. Like in the film the Princess Bride (I'm not sure if you've seen it, if you have you'll understand).

OMGUS means "Oh my gosh you suck!". Basically it's when you vote for someone only because they voted for you. It's like tit for tat. It's normally seen as a scummy behavior since it means that you aren't voting based off of reads or logic, but retaliation.

[EgorK]

Well, we have enough time for Nik? I am also ok with scott lynch through would prefer Nik

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Nik

[jotheonah]

I have no preference between Scott and Nik. Am I allowed to use the dice button in forum mafia? (I vaguely remember there being a discussion a while back on whether that was ok for some reason)

[chairs]

Sorry about the V/LA guys, I'll catch up ASAP but can't do so at work.

[xeiron]

I have no preference between Scott and Nik. Am I allowed to use the dice button in forum mafia? (I vaguely remember there being a discussion a while back on whether that was ok for some reason)

I think it is OK. At least I have seen it used before without protests (mostly in RVS).
But there might have been a discussion concluding otherwise that I have not seen.

[A Drowned Kernel]

WIFOM means "Wine in front of me". It means that an argument is circular, and really doesn't have a solid foundation. Like in the film the Princess Bride (I'm not sure if you've seen it, if you have you'll understand).

I was under the impression that WIFOM was specifically about double-guessing your reactions because maybe scum anticipated them. Like "player x is doing something that's in their meta for town, but they know that that's their meta and so maybe are doing that on purpose to trick me, but maybe the player making that argument is actually scum trying to trick me into lynch a townie," etc., etc. The whole "I know that you know that I know" thing.

[jotheonah]

Ok. Evens Scott, odds Nik unless someone can sway me one way or another.

'' is not a valid dice string!

[jotheonah]

let's try that again

'6' is not a valid dice string!

[jotheonah]

Rolled 1d6 : 2, total 2

[jotheonah]

Cool. Vote: scott

[Ichimaru Gin]

WIFOM means "Wine in front of me". It means that an argument is circular, and really doesn't have a solid foundation. Like in the film the Princess Bride (I'm not sure if you've seen it, if you have you'll understand).

I was under the impression that WIFOM was specifically about double-guessing your reactions because maybe scum anticipated them. Like "player x is doing something that's in their meta for town, but they know that that's their meta and so maybe are doing that on purpose to trick me, but maybe the player making that argument is actually scum trying to trick me into lynch a townie," etc., etc. The whole "I know that you know that I know" thing.

But isn't what you're describing somewhat like circular reasoning? e.g. The whole argument is based on an assumption which kind of supports itself?

The wiki describes it as circular reasoning, but you're right that it is more limited to specific interactions.

[Witherweaver]

Well, is Scott's vote based on him lurking, or him doing scummy stuff?  He's VLA and has posted there.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Vote Count 1.11


Robz888 (3): chairs, Teproc, Ichimaru Gin

Nik (5): scott_pilgrim, EgorK, Axxle, Beyond Awesome, Witherweaver

scott_pilgrim (7): Voltaire, Robz888, A Drowned Kernal, XerxesPraelor, xeiron, Twistedarcher, jotheoah

chairs (1): Nik
 

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.
Day 1 ends on Wed. May 21 at 11 PM FT. That is in almost 12 hours.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Well, is Scott's vote based on him lurking, or him doing scummy stuff?  He's VLA and has posted there.

I'm glad someone besides me finally noticed this.

Yeah, I seriously do not get at all the votes on sp.

[Voltaire]

Do not like a Nik lynch at all.

Nik will presumably vote SP for self-preservation, which means we need one more for a SP lynch.

[Witherweaver]

WIFOM means "Wine in front of me". It means that an argument is circular, and really doesn't have a solid foundation. Like in the film the Princess Bride (I'm not sure if you've seen it, if you have you'll understand).

I was under the impression that WIFOM was specifically about double-guessing your reactions because maybe scum anticipated them. Like "player x is doing something that's in their meta for town, but they know that that's their meta and so maybe are doing that on purpose to trick me, but maybe the player making that argument is actually scum trying to trick me into lynch a townie," etc., etc. The whole "I know that you know that I know" thing.

But isn't what you're describing somewhat like circular reasoning? e.g. The whole argument is based on an assumption which kind of supports itself?

The wiki describes it as circular reasoning, but you're right that it is more limited to specific interactions.

It's not quite circular reasoning in the sense that:

(1) I want to show  A=>B
(2) I assume A
(3) I get B

It's circular in the sense that you an always go one step further in the line of thinking to get the opposite result.  "I think you would put the poison in my cup because <blah>".  "But you would know that I would think that, so you would put the poison in your cup."  "But again, you know that I would make that deduction, so you must have put the poison in my cup". Etc.

At some point you try to escape from the circle by figuring out which of the ones is most likely by "reading" your opponent.

[Witherweaver]

Do not like a Nik lynch at all.

Nik will presumably vote SP for self-preservation, which means we need one more for a SP lynch.

What about Robz?

[Voltaire]

Well, is Scott's vote based on him lurking, or him doing scummy stuff?  He's VLA and has posted there.

I'm glad someone besides me finally noticed this.

Yeah, I seriously do not get at all the votes on sp.

He was blending in when he was around too, I have a post about it and everything.

If SP doesn't happen I will vote Robz to prevent Nik from happening.

[xeiron]

I can see the case on NIK.

He has been very quick to jump from wagon to wagon, usually sheeping whatever case is in the wind at the moment. Most times he gives little to no explanations on why he placed a vote. He is also quick to unvote or vote elsewhere when confronted with his votes. This gives the impression that Nik is not really looking for scum, but looking for any lynch that is not himself.

It is also interesting to note that Nik seems more sure about his reads that he have reasons to be. Robz is definitely Mafia, after having made one post. Ichimaru is very scummy after asking questions, then backing off. This gives the impression that Nik is faking his reads as scum often do.

There is one thing that gives me a pause, though, is that Nik played just like this in House of Cards Mafia. He was town in that game. He could very well town here too. Actually I have a slight townread on him

For reference, here is (almost) all of Nik's posts where he votes or unvotes. 9/18 is half of his posts.

Vote: Volitare

Also, Nik. Why vote Voltaire And then just leave?

Do you mean not give a reason? My reason is that earlier in the thread, I thought Volitare claimed he was Mafia, based on this:

I AM IN MAFIA AGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIN

Now I realize he was talking about the game Mafia, not the Mafia faction. So, Unvote.

Vote:Robz888
His only post looks a little scummy, but the fact he has not responded to the constant voting on him makes me thinks he is definitely Mafia.
Robz, explanation?

The thing that is making Robz seem more and more scummier to me is that he hasn't posted anything. If he's lurking, he would at least see all the votes on him and would probably offer an explanation...but he hasn't. Is he just not paying attention?

I think Robz is busy with RL stuff (I think he posted in the VLA thread), so not responding to the wagon right away is expected regardless of his alignment.

Oh. In that case, Unvote.

VUnvote. Vote: Axxle

Vote: Ichimaru Gin
Not only did he vote for me only because he thought I wasn't playing right, but he also claims he thinks people are scum, questions them, then backs off. Very scummy.

Vote: Chairs
I think all he posted was an /in. Lurker.

Chairs has problmes with internet according to his posts in DominionLeague

I found Nik behavior rather scummy, so Vote: Nik

Oh. In that case, Vote: Scott for lurking.

Also, vote: Chairs.

[Ichimaru Gin]

@ww

It's been a little while since I took logic. But after (3) wouldn't you have B-->A
?
Otherwise it's just one assumption that leads to a single conclusion.

PPE: 2

[Voltaire]

Exactly, xeiron just layed out why Nik is probably town.

[jotheonah]

Voltaire, flesh that out if you would.

[Voltaire]

Voltaire, flesh that out if you would.

Which one? I've made several comments recently.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Rather. Assuming B will also get you A.

Sorry: phone posting
PPE: 2

[jotheonah]

This one:

Exactly, xeiron just layed out why Nik is probably town.

I tend to think that someone who votes in most of their posts on day 1 is scum. Scum trying to push a lynch. Why does that make him town? Because it's too obvious?

[Voltaire]

This one:

Exactly, xeiron just layed out why Nik is probably town.

I tend to think that someone who votes in most of their posts on day 1 is scum. Scum trying to push a lynch. Why does that make him town? Because it's too obvious?

Yes, but more importantly, as xeiron says, because that's what he did in NM4 as town.

So yes, he could be scum, but he's new enough that if he's matching his town meta like this he's got to be more likely town. I simply cannot see it any other way.

[Witherweaver]

@ww

It's been a little while since I took logic. But after (3) wouldn't you have B-->A
?
Otherwise it's just one assumption that leads to a single conclusion.

PPE: 2

Well the point is that in WIFOM you're not making the assumption that you want to prove. (You're not assuming that A is true in order to show that B is true.)  You know that A->B is a sensible thing to think and that B-> A is also a sensible thing to think.  But A and B can't both be true.  You have to (somehow) judge which is more likely.

Of course in that previous post I misspoke what circular reasoning was.  I meant to say, you want to show A=>B.  You assume B.  (Do some stuff that's not really relevant.)  You conclude B is true. 

Anyway, all off topic.

[Witherweaver]

This one:

Exactly, xeiron just layed out why Nik is probably town.

I tend to think that someone who votes in most of their posts on day 1 is scum. Scum trying to push a lynch. Why does that make him town? Because it's too obvious?

Yes, but more importantly, as xeiron says, because that's what he did in NM4 as town.

So yes, he could be scum, but he's new enough that if he's matching his town meta like this he's got to be more likely town. I simply cannot see it any other way.

But this could just be the way he is.  Just because his scummy town play turned out to be town before doesn't mean scummy town => town always.

[Voltaire]

This one:

Exactly, xeiron just layed out why Nik is probably town.

I tend to think that someone who votes in most of their posts on day 1 is scum. Scum trying to push a lynch. Why does that make him town? Because it's too obvious?

Yes, but more importantly, as xeiron says, because that's what he did in NM4 as town.

So yes, he could be scum, but he's new enough that if he's matching his town meta like this he's got to be more likely town. I simply cannot see it any other way.

But this could just be the way he is.  Just because his scummy town play turned out to be town before doesn't mean scummy town => town always.

But IF you take that premise (I do not), even then, it is a null tell for him, not a scum tell! This is what I am saying.

Nik feels like the classic "scum paints townie who was vaguely confusing/strange into a mislynch" mold.

[Teproc]

This one:

Exactly, xeiron just layed out why Nik is probably town.

I tend to think that someone who votes in most of their posts on day 1 is scum. Scum trying to push a lynch. Why does that make him town? Because it's too obvious?

Yes, but more importantly, as xeiron says, because that's what he did in NM4 as town.

So yes, he could be scum, but he's new enough that if he's matching his town meta like this he's got to be more likely town. I simply cannot see it any other way.

But this could just be the way he is.  Just because his scummy town play turned out to be town before doesn't mean scummy town => town always.

It's extremely hard to replicate your town meta to a T though, and this is what Nik is doing here.

[Ichimaru Gin]

This one:

Exactly, xeiron just layed out why Nik is probably town.

I tend to think that someone who votes in most of their posts on day 1 is scum. Scum trying to push a lynch. Why does that make him town? Because it's too obvious?

Yes, but more importantly, as xeiron says, because that's what he did in NM4 as town.

So yes, he could be scum, but he's new enough that if he's matching his town meta like this he's got to be more likely town. I simply cannot see it any other way.

But this could just be the way he is.  Just because his scummy town play turned out to be town before doesn't mean scummy town => town always.

Exactly. That's my fear. I feel like Nik would play comparably as scum too.
PPE:2

[Witherweaver]

And in HoC, we wasn't jumping quite so much, was he?  I thought he was pretty set on you for most of the game.  He went for some other votes, but he was going back to you fairly consistently.

(You being Voltaire here.)

[Voltaire]

And in HoC, we wasn't jumping quite so much, was he?  I thought he was pretty set on you for most of the game.  He went for some other votes, but he was going back to you fairly consistently.

(You being Voltaire here.)

That was only on later days, not D1.

[xeiron]

Well, is Scott's vote based on him lurking, or him doing scummy stuff?  He's VLA and has posted there.

I have no scumread yet in this game (except the one I had on Axxle). Only townreads, slight townreads and null reads. Out of these I naturally want to lynch my nullreads.

Scott Pilgrim has not made many posts, and those he has made has been pretty uncontroversial. (In contrast to e.g Nik) Because of this it is hard to get a good read on him. When there is no scummier option, people who are hard to read makes good lynches. Of the same reason I could easy support lynching Robz or Chairs as well.

I am aware that Scott Pilgrim has posted V/LA, and while that explains the few posts, I do not think we should refrain from lynching him because of that.

[Witherweaver]

Alright, Unvote because I trust Voltaire. 

[EgorK]

It seems Nik isn't happening? Well, I'm content with Vote: sp then

[Teproc]

It seems Nik isn't happening? Well, I'm content with Vote: sp then

This is L-1.

[Witherweaver]

I'm willing to hammer.

How long should we wait to see if he wants to claim or anything?  He hasn't posted for... days, right?

Can we get a prod on SP?

[xeiron]

Hey everyone, I haven't posted in a few days because I haven't had internet access.  I will be really busy for the next few days and probably won't be able to post much, and I don't have time to catch up now...

Deadline is Wednesday, that's a really bad time for me.  Hopefully I can catch up before then...

This is his last post. He said he might reach the deadline.

[EgorK]

It seems Nik isn't happening? Well, I'm content with Vote: sp then

This is L-1.

Yes, sorry

[Voltaire]

Deadline is in a few hours. Do we have anyone around intending to hammer?

[Witherweaver]

I'm still here.

[Axxle]

I can.

[scott_pilgrim]

Okay I'm on now and going to try to catch up, I'm ~12 pages behind I think...

What time is the deadline?

[Witherweaver]

Okay I'm on now and going to try to catch up, I'm ~12 pages behind I think...

What time is the deadline?

11 PM, 9 hours from now.  You're at L-1 and have two people intending to hammer you.

[Axxle]

Go fast!

[scott_pilgrim]

Shoot, uh, vote: Nik, but I'm still catching up.  Obviously voting for survival, but I also do think he comes off as pretty scummy from what I've read so far.

Is the case on me just that I haven't posted much?  I swear I'll have more time to post after this week!  I hate being in this situation and now kind of regret having singed up for this game...I feel like town is losing a free PR and it's my fault for being in a game when I didn't have time to participate...

[scott_pilgrim]

Shoot, uh, vote: Nik, but I'm still catching up.  Obviously voting for survival, but I also do think he comes off as pretty scummy from what I've read so far.

Is the case on me just that I haven't posted much?  I swear I'll have more time to post after this week!  I hate being in this situation and now kind of regret having singed up for this game...I feel like town is losing a free PR and it's my fault for being in a game when I didn't have time to participate...

I chose Watchtower, the town Watcher.

[scott_pilgrim]

Oh right, I was already voting for Nik.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Let's not lynch sp! Seriously, I prefer Nik over him at this point.

vote: Nik

[Teproc]

Shoot, uh, vote: Nik, but I'm still catching up.  Obviously voting for survival, but I also do think he comes off as pretty scummy from what I've read so far.

Is the case on me just that I haven't posted much?  I swear I'll have more time to post after this week!  I hate being in this situation and now kind of regret having singed up for this game...I feel like town is losing a free PR and it's my fault for being in a game when I didn't have time to participate...

I chose Watchtower, the town Watcher.

What do we do about this ? Watcher is pretty good, and any fakeclaim is somewhat risky here... also I don't think that's the role scum would most want to out (it's good, but it's no Cop).

[XerxesPraelor]

I agree; let's lynch nik instead. vote:nik

[Robz888]

Unvote

[Witherweaver]

Well we only have.. 8 hours for an alternative.

[Robz888]

I don't really want to vote Nik. I hate lynching newbies on Day 1.

[Teproc]

I don't really want to vote Nik. I hate lynching newbies on Day 1.

He's not entirely a newbie, he has one completed game already.

That being said I agree. Lynching you is marginally better (but really I'm more interested in lynching one of the X-Men).

[Voltaire]

NO NIK LYNCH

OK, lynch Robz, lynch Joth? If we're lynchign x's, yes to xp but no to xeiron. Are there others?

Teproc, scum will always fakeclaim in this setup, true card claiming outs them as scum

[jotheonah]

I would strongly caution against going after a totally new person at this point in the day! We already outed a good PR. We don't want to accidentally out another one, or accidentally lynch one who doesn't have time to claim or doesn't check in.

I think vote: Nik is a lot better.

Did the mafia get fakeclaims in this game? Pretty rough on them if they didn't, since we have a complete list of cards which correspond to role and alignment.

[Witherweaver]

Why Joth?  Or either of the X's?

[Voltaire]

I would strongly caution against going after a totally new person at this point in the day! We already outed a good PR. We don't want to accidentally out another one, or accidentally lynch one who doesn't have time to claim or doesn't check in.

I think vote: Nik is a lot better.

Did the mafia get fakeclaims in this game? Pretty rough on them if they didn't, since we have a complete list of cards which correspond to role and alignment.

In this situation, if we get another person to claim, then we lynch one of the claims, no matter what. That's my policy for d1 to not out anything.

I have no reason to think scum got fake claims, how coudl they? It's why I originally thought massclaim would make us win at the start of the day. I wasn't expecting we'd get a full list of cards/roles.

vote: Robz

[Teproc]

NO NIK LYNCH

OK, lynch Robz, lynch Joth? If we're lynchign x's, yes to xp but no to xeiron. Are there others?

Teproc, scum will always fakeclaim in this setup, true card claiming outs them as scum

Yes, my point was that they wouldn't fakeclaim Watcher.

[Witherweaver]

I would strongly caution against going after a totally new person at this point in the day! We already outed a good PR. We don't want to accidentally out another one, or accidentally lynch one who doesn't have time to claim or doesn't check in.

I think vote: Nik is a lot better.

Did the mafia get fakeclaims in this game? Pretty rough on them if they didn't, since we have a complete list of cards which correspond to role and alignment.

Why the mafia?  Do we even know there's a mafia?   

I keep losing the role list.

Mail-Mi: Can you link the spreadsheet on the setup posts?

[Axxle]

Shoot, uh, vote: Nik, but I'm still catching up.  Obviously voting for survival, but I also do think he comes off as pretty scummy from what I've read so far.

Is the case on me just that I haven't posted much?  I swear I'll have more time to post after this week!  I hate being in this situation and now kind of regret having singed up for this game...I feel like town is losing a free PR and it's my fault for being in a game when I didn't have time to participate...

I chose Watchtower, the town Watcher.

What do we do about this ? Watcher is pretty good, and any fakeclaim is somewhat risky here... also I don't think that's the role scum would most want to out (it's good, but it's no Cop).

Verifiable and arguably the strongest role in mafia. I say he should live.

[jotheonah]

I would strongly caution against going after a totally new person at this point in the day! We already outed a good PR. We don't want to accidentally out another one, or accidentally lynch one who doesn't have time to claim or doesn't check in.

I think vote: Nik is a lot better.

Did the mafia get fakeclaims in this game? Pretty rough on them if they didn't, since we have a complete list of cards which correspond to role and alignment.

In this situation, if we get another person to claim, then we lynch one of the claims, no matter what. That's my policy for d1 to not out anything.

I have no reason to think scum got fake claims, how coudl they? It's why I originally thought massclaim would make us win at the start of the day. I wasn't expecting we'd get a full list of cards/roles.

vote: Robz

What do you mean, how could they? After all the cards had been drafted, mail-mi could have picked some town roles that were neither distributed nor discarded and given them to the scum players as fake claims. If not, scum's in a pretty rough situation in a mass claim scenario, shooting blindly for roles that happened to not be given out.

[scott_pilgrim]

Well, Nik is pretty much null for me now.  On the one hand, his behavior really looks scummy: first he just jumps on every wagon that comes up, then after people pointed it out I think he voted for a lurker who didn't have any votes (I think it was chairs?) as if he was deliberately making sure he was doing some non-wagon votes too.  But, it's not dissimilar from how he played in HoC, where he was town, and there's this sense of "he's being way too obvious to be scum".  But at the same time, I think it would be easy for him to replicate the way he played in HoC if he were scum.  So in the end I can see any alignment being plausible.

Of course I prefer a null read lynch to a me lynch, there might be better alternatives though.  Like I think Robz might be better, but I don't think he has enough votes, and I would prefer to definitely lynch someone today, and I'm not going to be online again before the deadline (I'll be on for maybe 10-20 more minutes now).

[Teproc]

I would strongly caution against going after a totally new person at this point in the day! We already outed a good PR. We don't want to accidentally out another one, or accidentally lynch one who doesn't have time to claim or doesn't check in.

I think vote: Nik is a lot better.

Did the mafia get fakeclaims in this game? Pretty rough on them if they didn't, since we have a complete list of cards which correspond to role and alignment.

What makes you think Nik is less likely than anyone else to be a PR ?

[xeiron]

I would strongly caution against going after a totally new person at this point in the day! We already outed a good PR. We don't want to accidentally out another one, or accidentally lynch one who doesn't have time to claim or doesn't check in.

I think vote: Nik is a lot better.

Did the mafia get fakeclaims in this game? Pretty rough on them if they didn't, since we have a complete list of cards which correspond to role and alignment.

In this situation, if we get another person to claim, then we lynch one of the claims, no matter what. That's my policy for d1 to not out anything.

I have no reason to think scum got fake claims, how coudl they? It's why I originally thought massclaim would make us win at the start of the day. I wasn't expecting we'd get a full list of cards/roles.

vote: Robz

What do you mean, how could they? After all the cards had been drafted, mail-mi could have picked some town roles that were neither distributed nor discarded and given them to the scum players as fake claims. If not, scum's in a pretty rough situation in a mass claim scenario, shooting blindly for roles that happened to not be given out.

There is about 80 town roles to choose from. ~70 of them is not taken. Thats pretty good chances to get a successful fakeclaim. And if scum really was afraid of being counterclaimed, they could claim a card there is more than one copy of. I think scum does great without mod-given fakeclaims.

[xeiron]

Vote: robz

[jotheonah]

Wait a minute. There are 139 roles in this game.

Which is more likely? We happened to randomly pick "the strongest role in mafia" as our lurker lynch? or we picked an anti-town player and he claimed the role that would keep him alive?

Even without a mod-supplied fakeclaim, with 122 roles to choose from* and only 15 possible counterclaims, he had an 87.7 percent chance of going uncounterclaimed. Even in the other case, he outs a powerful role for his team.

Why are we all buying this? vote: scott

*139-16 discards-his own actual role

[Voltaire]

Because that would also be giving scum information (hey! These roles aren't in the game!)

Or maybe that's balanced? I dunno, I'm still confused how the duplicate cards work in that spreadhseet anyway.

[jotheonah]

I would strongly caution against going after a totally new person at this point in the day! We already outed a good PR. We don't want to accidentally out another one, or accidentally lynch one who doesn't have time to claim or doesn't check in.

I think vote: Nik is a lot better.

Did the mafia get fakeclaims in this game? Pretty rough on them if they didn't, since we have a complete list of cards which correspond to role and alignment.

What makes you think Nik is less likely than anyone else to be a PR ?

He's an existing wagon. If he's a PR he's checking in at least, and will have a chance to claim before he's lynched. I worry we pick a totally new person, they don't even check in before deadline, we lynch the cop. That's the scenario I want to avoid.

[Teproc]

Watcher is somewhat easy to disprove, and not the role scum is the most worried about (that would be their faction specific Cop), so I don't think it's extremely likely that this is a fakeclaim. Even if it is, catching him in a lie shouldn't be too hard.

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote count? cause I have no idea at this point.

I think Scott is still bad lynch. Is it worth it to lose a PR like that?

[Voltaire]

Joth makes a good point...and I think the odds a faction exists, and a town faction cop for that role also exists, is pretty low, right?

[xeiron]

Wait a minute. There are 139 roles in this game.

Which is more likely? We happened to randomly pick "the strongest role in mafia" as our lurker lynch? or we picked an anti-town player and he claimed the role that would keep him alive?

Even without a mod-supplied fakeclaim, with 122 roles to choose from* and only 15 possible counterclaims, he had an 87.7 percent chance of going uncounterclaimed. Even in the other case, he outs a powerful role for his team.

Why are we all buying this? vote: scott

*139-16 discards-his own actual role

We are buying it because it is (sort of) confirmable. We can leave him alive today, and then on a later day have him claim who he watched. If he is town, he should get some results. If he is lying, we will find out and lych him later. 

[Teproc]

This should be up to date :

Nik (5): scott_pilgrim, Axxle, Beyond Awesome, Ichimaru Gin, XerxesPraelor
Robz888 (4): chairs, Teproc, Voltaire, xeiron
scott_pilgrim (4): A Drowned Kernal, Twistedarcher, Egork, jotheonah
chairs (1): Nik

Not voting (2) : Witherweaver, Robz

[jotheonah]

vote count? cause I have no idea at this point.

I think Scott is still bad lynch. Is it worth it to lose a PR like that?

But if he's the actual Watcher, isn't he dead either way?

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote count? cause I have no idea at this point.

I think Scott is still bad lynch. Is it worth it to lose a PR like that?

But if he's the actual Watcher, isn't he dead either way?

Likely. So if he survives the night, he'll look more suspicious tomorrow. But then we could lynch him as a PR today, which would be undoubtedly worse in my mind.

[Beyond Awesome]

Sorry guys, but what does the Watcher do? Also, what does PR mean and PPE?

[scott_pilgrim]

vote count? cause I have no idea at this point.

I think Scott is still bad lynch. Is it worth it to lose a PR like that?

But if he's the actual Watcher, isn't he dead either way?

Yeah there's a good chance, but maybe we have a doc or RB or multiple scum factions WIFOM each other and all assume someone else will kill me.  If you 100% knew I were Watcher you obv. wouldn't kill me, because a random lynch and then a me NK is better than a me lynch and then a non-X NK for some scum faction X.  Of course if I keep surviving and you find that worthy of lynching me that's fine, nothing I can do about that, but at least you'll have my results then.

[xeiron]

vote count? cause I have no idea at this point.

I think Scott is still bad lynch. Is it worth it to lose a PR like that?

But if he's the actual Watcher, isn't he dead either way?

Which of the scumteams do you think will kill him?

If all of them do, thats great!

[scott_pilgrim]

vote: Robz

I think we can make it happen.  I'm gone until deadline so my vote's not moving.  Again, sorry about my absence everyone and that it outed an important PR, but there wasn't anything I could do about it.

[Axxle]

Sorry guys, but what does the Watcher do? Also, what does PR mean and PPE?

Watcher targets a person at night and finds out who else targeted that person.

PR means Power Role, basically any role that has actions.

PPE is Prepreview Edit. Sometimes people post between when you start the post and when you finish it.

[Voltaire]

Robz showed up and posted/said non-weighty things, so that makes me feel pretty good about this as a backup still.

I guess leaving SP alive does make sense.

[Beyond Awesome]

Sorry guys, but what does the Watcher do? Also, what does PR mean and PPE?

Watcher targets a person at night and finds out who else targeted that person.

PR means Power Role, basically any role that has actions.

PPE is Prepreview Edit. Sometimes people post between when you start the post and when you finish it.

Thanks. Also, what does NK mean.

Anyway, I was never sold on SP being scum. I am also not sold on RobZ being scum either. I feel more confident with Nik at this point.

[xeiron]

Sorry guys, but what does the Watcher do? Also, what does PR mean and PPE?

Watcher targets a person at night and finds out who else targeted that person.

PR means Power Role, basically any role that has actions.

PPE is Prepreview Edit. Sometimes people post between when you start the post and when you finish it.

Thanks. Also, what does NK mean.

Anyway, I was never sold on SP being scum. I am also not sold on RobZ being scum either. I feel more confident with Nik at this point.

NK = nightkill - mafia, werewolf and serial killers can kill someone every night.

[Robz888]

Robz showed up and posted/said non-weighty things, so that makes me feel pretty good about this as a backup still.

I guess leaving SP alive does make sense.

I just couldn't think of anything to say. And, come on, this is me, obviously if I were scum I would be talking like crazy to not get lynched. It's much easier to make things up than say true, valuable, real things. Like, I was thinking of writing something about how I don't think you, Voltaire, as town, would actually push for me at this point with intent to kill, but then I deleted it, because hey, maybe you would.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Sorry guys, but what does the Watcher do? Also, what does PR mean and PPE?

Watcher targets a person at night and finds out who else targeted that person.

PR means Power Role, basically any role that has actions.

PPE is Prepreview Edit. Sometimes people post between when you start the post and when you finish it.

Thanks. Also, what does NK mean.

Anyway, I was never sold on SP being scum. I am also not sold on RobZ being scum either. I feel more confident with Nik at this point.

Same here.
So Robz was disinterested and hasn't posted much. He has a new job right? Why do we keep trying to lynch claimed PR's and people with real life excuses?

[Teproc]

Sorry guys, but what does the Watcher do? Also, what does PR mean and PPE?

Watcher targets a person at night and finds out who else targeted that person.

PR means Power Role, basically any role that has actions.

PPE is Prepreview Edit. Sometimes people post between when you start the post and when you finish it.

Thanks. Also, what does NK mean.

Anyway, I was never sold on SP being scum. I am also not sold on RobZ being scum either. I feel more confident with Nik at this point.

Same here.
So Robz was disinterested and hasn't posted much. He has a new job right? Why do we keep trying to lynch claimed PR's and people with real life excuses?

Personally I'm null on RObz but lean town on Nik and S_P, so Robz is the best of the available choices.

[Axxle]

Sorry guys, but what does the Watcher do? Also, what does PR mean and PPE?

Watcher targets a person at night and finds out who else targeted that person.

PR means Power Role, basically any role that has actions.

PPE is Prepreview Edit. Sometimes people post between when you start the post and when you finish it.

Thanks. Also, what does NK mean.

Anyway, I was never sold on SP being scum. I am also not sold on RobZ being scum either. I feel more confident with Nik at this point.

NK is Night Kill referring to mafia's factional kill.

SP is short for scott_pilgrim and RobZ is short for Robz888

[Robz888]

Sorry guys, but what does the Watcher do? Also, what does PR mean and PPE?

Watcher targets a person at night and finds out who else targeted that person.

PR means Power Role, basically any role that has actions.

PPE is Prepreview Edit. Sometimes people post between when you start the post and when you finish it.

Thanks. Also, what does NK mean.

Anyway, I was never sold on SP being scum. I am also not sold on RobZ being scum either. I feel more confident with Nik at this point.

Same here.
So Robz was disinterested and hasn't posted much. He has a new job right? Why do we keep trying to lynch claimed PR's and people with real life excuses?

Sorry, I'm totally hiding behind the new job thing as an excuse. I shouldn't do that. I should do something.

Vote: xeiron, for practically no reason.

[Axxle]

Lynching scott today would be really antitown.

I'd prefer nik but robz is within the realm of possibility.

[jotheonah]

vote: Robz888

too little, too late man

Lynching scott today would be really antitown.

For the record, I completely disagree. We have no reason to believe his claim and every reason not to. But whatever.

[Witherweaver]

vote: Robz888

too little, too late man

Lynching scott today would be really antitown.

For the record, I completely disagree. We have no reason to believe his claim and every reason not to. But whatever.

But just about everyone was null on Scott and was voting for him because he's one of the lurkers and there wasn't a better choice.  You're saying that him claiming a good PR should change null reads to scum reads?

[Axxle]

For the record, I completely disagree. We have no reason to believe his claim and every reason not to. But whatever.

Doesn't matter. His claim is both easy to verify and powerful.

[Witherweaver]

I mean, if you have a strong reason to believe that scum would choose Watcher in particular as their claim, then your probability argument makes sense.  But he still could have chosen any number of fake town roles.

[Nik]

Vote: Robz

[jotheonah]

I mean, if you have a strong reason to believe that scum would choose Watcher in particular as their claim, then your probability argument makes sense.  But he still could have chosen any number of fake town roles.

Worth noting, there's a Werewolf Watcher

[Teproc]

Sorry guys, but what does the Watcher do? Also, what does PR mean and PPE?

Watcher targets a person at night and finds out who else targeted that person.

PR means Power Role, basically any role that has actions.

PPE is Prepreview Edit. Sometimes people post between when you start the post and when you finish it.

Thanks. Also, what does NK mean.

Anyway, I was never sold on SP being scum. I am also not sold on RobZ being scum either. I feel more confident with Nik at this point.

Mafia Lingo/Dictionary => http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5315.0

Everything else you can find there => http://wiki.mafiascum.net/

[Axxle]

Sorry guys, but what does the Watcher do? Also, what does PR mean and PPE?

Watcher targets a person at night and finds out who else targeted that person.

PR means Power Role, basically any role that has actions.

PPE is Prepreview Edit. Sometimes people post between when you start the post and when you finish it.

Thanks. Also, what does NK mean.

Anyway, I was never sold on SP being scum. I am also not sold on RobZ being scum either. I feel more confident with Nik at this point.

Mafia Lingo/Dictionary => http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5315.0

Everything else you can find there => http://wiki.mafiascum.net/

mafiascum is down right now otherwise I would have sent him there.
Forgot we had that thread here though.

[Teproc]

I mean, if you have a strong reason to believe that scum would choose Watcher in particular as their claim, then your probability argument makes sense.  But he still could have chosen any number of fake town roles.

Worth noting, there's a Werewolf Watcher

In which case he can still find other scum for us actually, and he'll be a magnet for other scum factions NK. Keeping him alive is all upside even if he's scum.

Well he could be scum completely fakclaiming, but again, Watcher is not a good fakeclaim at all. I don't get why you're so intent on lynching S_P anyway.

[jotheonah]

Clearly I'm not, as I moved my vote. The conversation is somewhat academic at this point. I just don't like the idea of scum getting away scot free for making an easy enough fake claim. And I feel that moving to another lynch at the last possible second has screwed towns up before. (of course, in the interest of fairness, I think it's also hit scum before)

[Teproc]

Clearly I'm not, as I moved my vote. The conversation is somewhat academic at this point. I just don't like the idea of scum getting away scot free for making an easy enough fake claim. And I feel that moving to another lynch at the last possible second has screwed towns up before. (of course, in the interest of fairness, I think it's also hit scum before)

Yeah I see what you're saying. These express lynches aren't great at hitting scum (though not awful) but they're great for interactions. This is maybe not express enough because we have a few hours left, but still.

[Voltaire]

I should say now that I won't be able to be on right at deadline, but will be able to keep an eye on things/move my vote if needed up until about an hour before.

[Witherweaver]

I mean, if you have a strong reason to believe that scum would choose Watcher in particular as their claim, then your probability argument makes sense.  But he still could have chosen any number of fake town roles.

Worth noting, there's a Werewolf Watcher

This puts a hamper in the idea of confirming his role, since even if we get a confirmation it's only 50/50. 

[Axxle]

I mean, if you have a strong reason to believe that scum would choose Watcher in particular as their claim, then your probability argument makes sense.  But he still could have chosen any number of fake town roles.

Worth noting, there's a Werewolf Watcher

This puts a hamper in the idea of confirming his role, since even if we get a confirmation it's only 50/50.

Town Watchers are a lot more likely to die.

[Witherweaver]

I mean, if you have a strong reason to believe that scum would choose Watcher in particular as their claim, then your probability argument makes sense.  But he still could have chosen any number of fake town roles.

Worth noting, there's a Werewolf Watcher

This puts a hamper in the idea of confirming his role, since even if we get a confirmation it's only 50/50.

Town Watchers are a lot more likely to die.

Yeah, but there are still things like protection.  And no one discarded a protection role, I think. 

[Witherweaver]

What is Robz at now?  L-2?

[Teproc]

Let's see :

Robz888 (7): chairs, Teproc, Voltaire, xeiron, scott_pilgrim, jotheonah, Nik
Nik (4): Axxle, Beyond Awesome, Ichimaru Gin, XerxesPraelor
scott_pilgrim (3): A Drowned Kernal, Twistedarcher, Egork
xeiron (1) : Robz

Not voting (1) : Witherweaver

With 16 alive, it takes 9 to lynch

So yeah, L-2

[Witherweaver]

Okay, I'll be leaving here in a little bit and won't be back until maybe 9 or 10 PM, so Vote: Robz.

That's L-1.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Dah!!
I will hammer if needed. My preferences is something like Nik > Robz > S_P
Of people that are possible.

[EgorK]

What is Robz at now?  L-2?

Yeah, vote count will be good as I'll go to sleep shortly and won't be available before deadline

[EgorK]

Strange that there was no PPE

If IG ready to hammer I'll go to sleep probably

[Robz888]

Who do I have to vote for to not be lynched?

[Robz888]

It's a big mistake to lynch me guys.

[Robz888]

Vote: Nik

Does Nik have votes? Vote count?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Who do I have to vote for to not be lynched?

I will do Nik over you, but not S_P I think.

PPE:

vote: Nik

[Robz888]

Cool, cool.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Who do I have to vote for to not be lynched?

I will do Nik over you, but not S_P I think.

PPE:

vote: Nik

Heh. Just noticed I was already voting for him. That's 5 vote I think.

[Robz888]

Couple more people, join the Nik wagon please?

[Robz888]

Voltaire, Joth? Come on guys, you don't really want a Day 1 Robz lynch.

[Teproc]

I was just thinking about how Robz's apathy was making me feel very good about this lynch... so much for that.

[EgorK]

Back to Nik then

Nik

[EgorK]

Back to Nik then

Nik

I mean Vote: Nik

[Ichimaru Gin]

3 more votes for a lynch I think.

[Voltaire]

Couple more people, join the Nik wagon please?

No.

[Voltaire]

I was just thinking about how Robz's apathy was making me feel very good about this lynch... so much for that.

WIFOM, man. WIFOM.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Couple more people, join the Nik wagon please?

No.

So you want to lynch Robz?

[Voltaire]

Couple more people, join the Nik wagon please?

No.

So you want to lynch Robz?

Yes! I'm voting for him and everything.

[Teproc]

I was just thinking about how Robz's apathy was making me feel very good about this lynch... so much for that.

WIFOM, man. WIFOM.

I still think Robz is the right lynch, but only because I don't like the Nik lynch basically. Robz's silence was making me more confident than that, but oh well.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Couple more people, join the Nik wagon please?

No.

So you want to lynch Robz?

Yes! I'm voting for him and everything.

Mm. Probably should have checked, but there have been a crazy amount of votes and back-and-forths. And no official vote count in a little while.

I really can't decide between the two. I know I messed up on Nik before, but it seems like he's not a PR. Wheras Robz alluded that he was. I could see scum!Robz doing that though.

[Teproc]

I really can't decide between the two. I know I messed up on Nik before, but it seems like he's not a PR. Wheras Robz alluded that he was. I could see scum!Robz doing that though.

He did ?

[Ichimaru Gin]

I really can't decide between the two. I know I messed up on Nik before, but it seems like he's not a PR. Wheras Robz alluded that he was. I could see scum!Robz doing that though.

He did ?

Well he said "It's a big mistake to lynch me guys." Which I interpreted as him having some sort of PR. I mean, it could be otherwise but the way he said it makes it sound that way.

[Voltaire]

I really can't decide between the two. I know I messed up on Nik before, but it seems like he's not a PR. Wheras Robz alluded that he was. I could see scum!Robz doing that though.

He did ?

"It's a bad idea to lynch me" or whatever. Which is TOTALLY HELPFUL if he's town, as we had NO IDEA prior to him saying that.

ie I don't buy it

PPE that

[Teproc]

I took that as a meta comment because he appealed specifically to joth and Voltaire, maybe because Robz used to get mislynched on day 1 somewhat often at one point.

[Voltaire]

I did used to always want to lynch him D1, and that went away for awhile. Apparently it's back.

[Twistedarcher]

vote : robz

[Voltaire]

Woohoo! Was that hammer, or had some people switched to Nik?

[Teproc]

Pretty certain it was the hammer.

TA, any comment ?

[Twistedarcher]

Dunno I was assuming it was

[jotheonah]

Scotty, want to give us some reads in case you bite it?

[Teproc]

Scotty, want to give us some reads in case you bite it?

No ! Or... I don't know, maybe, I guess it's hard to know who a Watcher will target by looking at his reads. But keep in mind that you don't want scum to figure out who you'll be targeting.

[Axxle]

Be sure to ask the mod if you can selfwatch

[Robz888]

I have a really strong town pr. Do not lynch me

[Robz888]

Was I really hammered? Voltaire should have known better. Top scum read

[Nik]

Vote count?

[mail-mi]

Thread Locked

[mail-mi]

Vote Count 1.FINAL

Robz888 (9): chairs, Teproc, Voltaire, xeiron, SP, joth, Nik, WW, TA
Nik (6): Axxle, Beyond Awesome, IG, XP, Robz, EgorK
scott_pilgrim (1): A Drowned Kernal

Not Voting (0):

With 16 alive it took 9 to lynch.

[mail-mi]

Flavor Later (maybe)

Robz888 has been lynched. He was a Tunneler, a Hider.

Night 1 start!

Night 1 will end at 8 PM FT on Fri, May 23.

[mail-mi]

Night action deadline has passed. I'm a bit busy at the moment, so I'll open the thread and process night actions later.

[mail-mi]

It was a bloody night.

Everyone returned from their rooms to the table, expecting to see one, maybe two dead. They walked in to the pleasant sight of Twistedarcher dead on the table, blood covering the cards. Voltaire took a seat, and as he sat his legs kicked the body of xeiron under the table. Teproc hung from the chandelier. And jotheonah sat with his card in had, his eyes lifeless and unseeing.

XerxesPraelor sighed. "That was a terrible, terrible night." They all took a seat, one card still held in hand, and saw the four cards of the dead strewn about in the strangest places. A few were soaked in blood, but still readable. And then chairs screamed as he heard a gasp coming from behind him.

jotheonah blinked.

Twistedarcher has been killed. He was an Adventurer, a Tracker.

xeiron has been killed. He was a Spy, a Cop.

Teproc has been killed. He was a Pillager, a 1-shot Dayvig

jotheonah has been Treestumped. He was a Spy, a Cop.

DAY 2 START
THREAD UNLOCKED!

Treestumped players are, for all intents and purposes, dead. However, they may still post in-thread.

[mail-mi]

Vote Count 2.0

Not Voting (11): A Drowned Kernel, EgorK, XerxesPraelor, Ichimaru Gin, Beyond Awesome, Axxle, Nik, WW, scott_pilgrim, Voltaire, chairs

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on Monday June 2 at 9:30 PM FT. Please note: I will be going to Spain around the 4th or 5th. AndrewisFTTW will be the official mod until about June 15th or 16th.

[A Drowned Kernel]

It was pretty awesome to log in for deadline and see that derphammer, I've got to say.

That's effectively four nightkills, and treestumping means we have an alien faction. They might have used their one kill last night though. Do you have anything useful for us, Joth?

[Witherweaver]

Any of them Watched? 

[Ichimaru Gin]

Uh. That is a ton of nightkills.

Ok. I read up on treestumping earlier, but that's something that is unique to a particular faction?

So joth's vote no longer counts, but he can still give us information?

Mmm. I was expecting to die tonight; glad that I didn't. I wonder what it says that S_P is still alive? Also, I think Robz's flip does make Voltaire more scummy. I've been in past games where it's been town vs. town when someone dies and finds a person pushing their lynch scummy. But Voltaire doesn't feel the same to me as he has in other games (I've seen him as town).

[Ichimaru Gin]

*I've only seen Voltaire playing town. I've never played with him as scum before.

[jotheonah]

YEs, in fact! I guess since I'm dead anyway there's no reason not to report my night action results.

Here's a cached version of the mafiascum entry; it's not really clear: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XbE3hCrwzkoJ:wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTree_Stump+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

I'm a cop. (the other spy). I got a town result. Shall I say who it is, or is it better not to put a target on their head? I can just sit here and chime in if we're about to lynch the person in question.

[jotheonah]

oh, actually all I know is that this person is not mafia. I don't actually know that they're town. So less helpful.

[mail-mi]

YEs, in fact! I guess since I'm dead anyway there's no reason not to report my night action results.

Here's a cached version of the mafiascum entry; it's not really clear: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XbE3hCrwzkoJ:wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTree_Stump+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

I'm a cop. (the other spy). I got a town result. Shall I say who it is, or is it better not to put a target on their head? I can just sit here and chime in if we're about to lynch the person in question.

Thanks

[Beyond Awesome]

Sheesh, that's a lot of dead people.

[XerxesPraelor]

That was a terrible, terrible night. I might be the only town person left here. Note that everyone killed was on robz's lynch. That seems rather strange to me: surely something like that wouldn't happen by pure coincedence.

Also, I think that there's probably 1 mafia, 1 werwolf, 1 Alien, and 1 something else, or else this couldn't be ruled balanced at all.

[chairs]

That was a terrible, terrible night. I might be the only town person left here. Note that everyone killed was on robz's lynch. That seems rather strange to me: surely something like that wouldn't happen by pure coincedence.

Also, I think that there's probably 1 mafia, 1 werwolf, 1 Alien, and 1 something else, or else this couldn't be ruled balanced at all.

Vig maybe?

[Ichimaru Gin]

That was a terrible, terrible night. I might be the only town person left here. Note that everyone killed was on robz's lynch. That seems rather strange to me: surely something like that wouldn't happen by pure coincedence.

Also, I think that there's probably 1 mafia, 1 werwolf, 1 Alien, and 1 something else, or else this couldn't be ruled balanced at all.

That doesn't strike me as a very townie thing to say. Yes, we lost a lot of town members--but I'm still alive (and you may be town as well), and I feel that a balanced game would have to have a fair amount of town--especially with so many nightkills possible. I agree with your theory about 1 person from each faction though.
Your observation about everyone killed being on the Robz lynch is quite intriguing as well. With that number of kills, the coincidence does become a little harder to ignore too. I'm not sure what it might mean though.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also, joth is basically an immortal IC now, right? Even with no vote, I feel like he could still be pretty useful.

[XerxesPraelor]

Yes; it's just that ICs can't help very much except for giving honest reads. More importantly, can he use his cop power still and report the results? That would be really useful, I think.

[XerxesPraelor]

That was a terrible, terrible night. I might be the only town person left here. Note that everyone killed was on robz's lynch. That seems rather strange to me: surely something like that wouldn't happen by pure coincedence.

Also, I think that there's probably 1 mafia, 1 werwolf, 1 Alien, and 1 something else, or else this couldn't be ruled balanced at all.

That doesn't strike me as a very townie thing to say. Yes, we lost a lot of town members--but I'm still alive (and you may be town as well), and I feel that a balanced game would have to have a fair amount of town--especially with so many nightkills possible. I agree with your theory about 1 person from each faction though.
Your observation about everyone killed being on the Robz lynch is quite intriguing as well. With that number of kills, the coincidence does become a little harder to ignore too. I'm not sure what it might mean though.

Yeah, I guess you're right. It just feels pretty bad to find so many people killed/treestumped.

I'm going to give tentative towny points to nik, though, even though it's a pretty small factor. I'm guessing the scum factions were trying to hit other scum, and somehow all had bad reads. It might be useful to look at day1 to see who had scum reads on those people.

[XerxesPraelor]

One benefit of lots of people dying is that it's easier to form reads and to base reads on something (the flips)

[jotheonah]

Yes; it's just that ICs can't help very much except for giving honest reads. More importantly, can he use his cop power still and report the results? That would be really useful, I think.

Im pretty sure I can't cop anymore. So I have exactly one result. It's a "not mafia" result. Do people want to hear it?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Yes; it's just that ICs can't help very much except for giving honest reads. More importantly, can he use his cop power still and report the results? That would be really useful, I think.

Im pretty sure I can't cop anymore. So I have exactly one result. It's a "not mafia" result. Do people want to hear it?

I don't know if it may be more dangerous to be "not scum" at this point. What does everyone else think?

[Witherweaver]

Yes; it's just that ICs can't help very much except for giving honest reads. More importantly, can he use his cop power still and report the results? That would be really useful, I think.

Im pretty sure I can't cop anymore. So I have exactly one result. It's a "not mafia" result. Do people want to hear it?

I can't think of a reason not to.  So yes.

[chairs]

Yes; it's just that ICs can't help very much except for giving honest reads. More importantly, can he use his cop power still and report the results? That would be really useful, I think.

Im pretty sure I can't cop anymore. So I have exactly one result. It's a "not mafia" result. Do people want to hear it?

I can't think of a reason not to.  So yes.

I think we should be careful; given that the Greater Idea deck has opportunities to investigate other scum factions, and it looks like we -have- other scum factions, "not mafia" may not be the same as "not scum".  I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that we need to be wary of treating anyone who's "not mafia" as an IC.

[Witherweaver]

Yes; it's just that ICs can't help very much except for giving honest reads. More importantly, can he use his cop power still and report the results? That would be really useful, I think.

Im pretty sure I can't cop anymore. So I have exactly one result. It's a "not mafia" result. Do people want to hear it?

I can't think of a reason not to.  So yes.

I think we should be careful; given that the Greater Idea deck has opportunities to investigate other scum factions, and it looks like we -have- other scum factions, "not mafia" may not be the same as "not scum".  I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that we need to be wary of treating anyone who's "not mafia" as an IC.

Right, we can't assume his target is town, but I can't think of a reason for him not to list the result. 

[Ichimaru Gin]

Yes; it's just that ICs can't help very much except for giving honest reads. More importantly, can he use his cop power still and report the results? That would be really useful, I think.

Im pretty sure I can't cop anymore. So I have exactly one result. It's a "not mafia" result. Do people want to hear it?

I can't think of a reason not to.  So yes.

I think we should be careful; given that the Greater Idea deck has opportunities to investigate other scum factions, and it looks like we -have- other scum factions, "not mafia" may not be the same as "not scum".  I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that we need to be wary of treating anyone who's "not mafia" as an IC.

Wait. So a "not mafia" result would include members from other factions like werewolves, aliens, etc?

[Witherweaver]

Are we guaranteed that all the "Mafia" roles in the deck are the same faction of Mafia?

[Witherweaver]

Yes; it's just that ICs can't help very much except for giving honest reads. More importantly, can he use his cop power still and report the results? That would be really useful, I think.

Im pretty sure I can't cop anymore. So I have exactly one result. It's a "not mafia" result. Do people want to hear it?

I can't think of a reason not to.  So yes.

I think we should be careful; given that the Greater Idea deck has opportunities to investigate other scum factions, and it looks like we -have- other scum factions, "not mafia" may not be the same as "not scum".  I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that we need to be wary of treating anyone who's "not mafia" as an IC.

Wait. So a "not mafia" result would include members from other factions like werewolves, aliens, etc?

Yeah.. I'm pretty sure SK, Survivor are in that etc.  Anything that is not Mafia.

[Witherweaver]

It was pretty awesome to log in for deadline and see that derphammer, I've got to say.

That's effectively four nightkills, and treestumping means we have an alien faction. They might have used their one kill last night though. Do you have anything useful for us, Joth?

Only treestumping ability is:

Alien Bloodsucker (Treestump someone at night. No Alien may perform the factional nightkill on the same night that you do this)

So it's true there is an Alien faction, and they still have one night kill.  So 3 kills beyond Alien.  It does seem possible to have more than one SK.  But based on number of roles on the list, Mafia, Werewolf, Sk/Vig is probably the most likely. 

This all makes the chance that Scott Pilgrim and Axxle are the Town versions of their roles less likely.  Much less likely I think.  (Assuming SP was telling the truth about having a Watcher role.)

[A Drowned Kernel]

This all makes the chance that Scott Pilgrim and Axxle are the Town versions of their roles less likely.  Much less likely I think.  (Assuming SP was telling the truth about having a Watcher role.)

How so?

[Witherweaver]

This all makes the chance that Scott Pilgrim and Axxle are the Town versions of their roles less likely.  Much less likely I think.  (Assuming SP was telling the truth about having a Watcher role.)

How so?

Because there are less possible town spots.  If it was x/16 chance they were town (unconditional), it's now (x-4)/16 (conditional only on knowing 4 confirmed town).

Well that part is still true whether SP told truth or not. 

[Axxle]

That is the most manipulative statistics I've seen in a long time. All it means is that *anyone* is more likely to be scum now.

[Axxle]

Scott, claim your results as soon as you post.

[scott_pilgrim]

I watched Voltaire, and got no result.

[scott_pilgrim]

I watched Voltaire, and got no result.

Uh, sorry got "nobody", not sure if that's the same thing

[Witherweaver]

That is the most manipulative statistics I've seen in a long time. All it means is that *anyone* is more likely to be scum now.

Well yeah, but I think 50/50 was already a greater chance than the uninformed probability of being scum.

[jotheonah]

Ok, I also investigated Voltaire. This seems pretty close to clearing him.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ok, I also investigated Voltaire. This seems pretty close to clearing him.

Except S_P could be (and perhaps likely) is lying. With that many nightkills happening, I find it difficult that at least one person or scum faction wouldn't have picked S_P as a nightkill. Especially with a role that powerful, which has the potential to out other town PR's and members of any/all scum factions.
So it's actually really confusing to me--regardless of alignment--that S_P is still alive.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Doesn't Watcher get the result of who target the person? S_P should have gotten Joth as his result if Joth investigated Voltaire.

[A Drowned Kernel]

And if he had been blocked he would have gotten "no result" not "nobody".

Vote: Scott

[Ichimaru Gin]

Doesn't Watcher get the result of who target the person? S_P should have gotten Joth as his result if Joth investigated Voltaire.

And if he had been blocked he would have gotten "no result" not "nobody".

Vote: Scott

Excellent points ADK.

vote: Scott
I had a hard time seeing the wagon on him D1, and I still think it was pretty flimsy at that point. However, this reads like a total slip revealing either that he's scum and lying, or has fakeclaimed.

[Axxle]

Doesn't Watcher get the result of who target the person? S_P should have gotten Joth as his result if Joth investigated Voltaire.

Yes.

vote: scott

[mail-mi]

Thread Locked

[mail-mi]

There were some mod mistakes made last night. They are in the process of being fixed.

In the meantime, Thread Unlocked

[Ichimaru Gin]

Mmm. So Scott may be innocent on that account.

Town read on ADK; from his behavior D1 and now, I feel pretty sure that he's town.

[Axxle]

unvote

[mail-mi]

Vote Count 2.1

scott_pilgrim (2): A Drowned Kernel, Ichimaru Gin

Not Voting (9): EgorK, XerxesPraelor, Beyond Awesome, Axxle, Nik, WW, scott_pilgrim, Voltaire, Archetype

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on Monday June 2 at 9:30 PM FT. Please note: I will be going to Spain around the 4th or 5th. AndrewisFTTW will be the official mod from then until about June 15th or 16th.

Archetype has replaced chairs. 

[A Drowned Kernel]

unvote

I don't know that a "nobody" result on Voltaire (or a "joth" result) clears Voltaire, though. It just lets us know that no one bothered targeting him, which might make it more likely that he's scum (scum aren't going to be targeting their partners). Also, since we have confirmed aliens, we should remember that one of the possible alien abilities reverses all cop results, so that's a thing.

[scott_pilgrim]

mail-mi just PM'd me saying he had made a mistake; jotheonah targeted Voltaire last night.

[Ichimaru Gin]

unvote

I don't know that a "nobody" result on Voltaire (or a "joth" result) clears Voltaire, though. It just lets us know that no one bothered targeting him, which might make it more likely that he's scum (scum aren't going to be targeting their partners). Also, since we have confirmed aliens, we should remember that one of the possible alien abilities reverses all cop results, so that's a thing.

unvote

I agree. Hmm. That's a good thing to know. So it's possible that joth's cop results were reversed? How does that work?

[Beyond Awesome]

I was wondering if Axxle has the ability to stop a lynch from happening, why wasn't he targeted. Or, is the ability just one shot?

[Beyond Awesome]

I am also curious as to why SP wasn't targeted.

[Witherweaver]

I was wondering if Axxle has the ability to stop a lynch from happening, why wasn't he targeted. Or, is the ability just one shot?

It's 1-shot.

[Witherweaver]

unvote

I don't know that a "nobody" result on Voltaire (or a "joth" result) clears Voltaire, though. It just lets us know that no one bothered targeting him, which might make it more likely that he's scum (scum aren't going to be targeting their partners). Also, since we have confirmed aliens, we should remember that one of the possible alien abilities reverses all cop results, so that's a thing.

unvote

I agree. Hmm. That's a good thing to know. So it's possible that joth's cop results were reversed? How does that work?

I guess it's this:

Alien Psychotrooper (While alive, all cops with 'guilty/not guilty' format results are Insane)

Insane means the results are opposite.  So Voltaire is not mafia, unless there is an Alien Psychotrooper, in which case Voltaire is Mafia.

[Archetype]

Hey everyone. I've been sort of following.

Quick theory thing: Should VTs claim their card name? If they do, they are basically a names Townie. My vote is yes.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hey everyone. I've been sort of following.

Quick theory thing: Should VTs claim their card name? If they do, they are basically a names Townie. My vote is yes.

Hey hey, welcome. Um. I'm cool with this. I don't feel like there can be that many town PR's left (or members of town, for that matter), so it doesn't seem like it can hurt much.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'd vote against VT claiming, few town PR's means we need to keep them hidden as possible.

I'd also say that SP actually having the correct result doesn't totally exonerate him either, there's still the possibility that he's the mafia watcher.

[Archetype]

Hey everyone. I've been sort of following.

Quick theory thing: Should VTs claim their card name? If they do, they are basically a names Townie. My vote is yes.

Hey hey, welcome. Um. I'm cool with this. I don't feel like there can be that many town PR's left (or members of town, for that matter), so it doesn't seem like it can hurt much.

Vote: Ichimaru Gin

That "or members of Town, for that matter" read so, so scummy.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Hey everyone. I've been sort of following.

Quick theory thing: Should VTs claim their card name? If they do, they are basically a names Townie. My vote is yes.

Hey hey, welcome. Um. I'm cool with this. I don't feel like there can be that many town PR's left (or members of town, for that matter), so it doesn't seem like it can hurt much.

Vote: Ichimaru Gin

That "or members of Town, for that matter" read so, so scummy.

Hmm. I find that you are jumping to conclusions. This is only basis for your vote on me at this point in the game?
Go ahead. It's a poor reason though.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Seriously, how is that diction construed as scummy? What other way am I supposed to refer to town!players?
"My fellow members of town"?
It's not good to insert self-references as you being town all the time, because that just looks scummy.

[Witherweaver]

Seriously, how is that diction construed as scummy? What other way am I supposed to refer to town!players?
"My fellow members of town"?
It's not good to insert self-references as you being town all the time, because that just looks scummy.

That's interesting^TM that you would say that.

I might be the only town person left here.

Yes, we lost a lot of town members--but I'm still alive

[Ichimaru Gin]

Seriously, how is that diction construed as scummy? What other way am I supposed to refer to town!players?
"My fellow members of town"?
It's not good to insert self-references as you being town all the time, because that just looks scummy.

That's interesting^TM that you would say that.

I might be the only town person left here.

Yes, we lost a lot of town members--but I'm still alive

Heh. Find me scummy for it all you want. But I was following Xerxes lead there. My point still stands that Archetype's critique of my word choice and finding it scummy doesn't really make sense.
I've only been in 2 serious games as town, and died N1 in one of them. So I am still observing people I believe to be town.
Personally, I find you to be playing much differently than the town ww that I am used to.

[Beyond Awesome]

One thing I feel is that we have to be careful who we lynch this day. If we don't hit scum, chances are we stand no shot at winning this. With 4 NKs a night, that seems brutal.

[Axxle]

Scott, why'd you target Voltaire?

[Ichimaru Gin]

One thing I feel is that we have to be careful who we lynch this day. If we don't hit scum, chances are we stand no shot at winning this. With 4 NKs a night, that seems brutal.

That's a very good observation. If we're lucky (and the odds are much better now), scum will hit scum more--and I guess that's what they want too. I've never been in a multiple-faction game before, but it makes sense.

Town reads on: XP, Beyond Awesome, ADK
Null: Axxle, S_P, Archetype
Possible Scum: ww, EgorK (where is he?), Nik

[scott_pilgrim]

Scott, why'd you target Voltaire?

I didn't have a lot of time to think about it.  I thought scum would think town would think Voltaire was towny (mostly because I had thought he was towny), so I thought he was likely to be NK'd.

[Ichimaru Gin]

One thing I feel is that we have to be careful who we lynch this day. If we don't hit scum, chances are we stand no shot at winning this. With 4 NKs a night, that seems brutal.

That's a very good observation. If we're lucky (and the odds are much better now), scum will hit scum more--and I guess that's what they want too. I've never been in a multiple-faction game before, but it makes sense.

Town reads on: XP, Beyond Awesome, ADK
Null: Axxle, S_P, Archetype
Possible Scum: ww, EgorK (where is he?), Nik

And I somehow missed Voltaire on my reads list. I'd put him under possible scum.

[EgorK]

Yeah, sorry. I am reading and all that but I need time to reread day 1 given flips

[Axxle]

One thing I feel is that we have to be careful who we lynch this day. If we don't hit scum, chances are we stand no shot at winning this. With 4 NKs a night, that seems brutal.

I was just about to entertain the idea of a no kill, but I think it'd be easier for the entire town (ie players in the game) to find scum rather than trust the individual factions to find each other accurately and try to kill them.

[Archetype]

Seriously, how is that diction construed as scummy? What other way am I supposed to refer to town!players?
"My fellow members of town"?
It's not good to insert self-references as you being town all the time, because that just looks scummy.

That's interesting^TM that you would say that.

I might be the only town person left here.

Yes, we lost a lot of town members--but I'm still alive

Heh. Find me scummy for it all you want. But I was following Xerxes lead there. My point still stands that Archetype's critique of my word choice and finding it scummy doesn't really make sense.
I've only been in 2 serious games as town, and died N1 in one of them. So I am still observing people I believe to be town.
Personally, I find you to be playing much differently than the town ww that I am used to.

Deflecting suspicion - classic scumtell.

[Archetype]

mail-mi just PM'd me saying he had made a mistake; jotheonah targeted Voltaire last night.

This, combined with the thread lock, makes it certain that Scotty is a Watcher. Since there are two Watchers, there is a literal 50/50 chance that he is scum. Rereading him now.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Seriously, how is that diction construed as scummy? What other way am I supposed to refer to town!players?
"My fellow members of town"?
It's not good to insert self-references as you being town all the time, because that just looks scummy.

That's interesting^TM that you would say that.

I might be the only town person left here.

Yes, we lost a lot of town members--but I'm still alive

Heh. Find me scummy for it all you want. But I was following Xerxes lead there. My point still stands that Archetype's critique of my word choice and finding it scummy doesn't really make sense.
I've only been in 2 serious games as town, and died N1 in one of them. So I am still observing people I believe to be town.
Personally, I find you to be playing much differently than the town ww that I am used to.

Deflecting suspicion - classic scumtell.

You can't refute what I've said with one sentence. You are describing and categorizing what I am saying rather than responding to it and actually engaging in discussion. This does not further anything.

[Nik]

Vote: Archetype for WIFOMing.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Archetype for WIFOMing.

Huh??

[Ichimaru Gin]

Vote: Archetype for WIFOMing.

Huh??

Niks right. Can't you see it in Archetypes argument?

Phone post.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Archetype for WIFOMing.

Huh??

Niks right. Can't you see it in Archetypes argument?

Phone post.

But doesn't just almost everything have some WIFOM in it?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Vote: Archetype for WIFOMing.

Huh??

Niks right. Can't you see it in Archetypes argument?

Phone post.

But doesn't just almost everything have some WIFOM in it?

To a degree yes. However, as you yourself already pointed out, I have been shown to do two different things.
1. Refer to town as if I am a member of it (or inserting references, or whatever)--which is normally seen as a scummy behavior.
2. Refer to town as a third party e.g. "members of town" which I see as a completely null behavior.

Archetype however, sees #2 as scummy for some reason. The WIFOM comes in because there's an element of because he sees #2 as scummy and #1 is already seen as scummy, then no matter how I refer to town there's a scum argument that he can apply to it.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Vote Count 2.2

Ichimaru Gin (1): Archetype

Archetype (1): Nik


Not Voting (9): EgorK, XerxesPraelor, Beyond Awesome, Axxle, WW, scott_pilgrim, Voltaire, A Drowned Kernal, Ichimaru Gin

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on Monday June 2 at 9:30 PM FT. Please note: mail-mi will be going to Spain around the 4th or 5th. AndrewisFTTW will be the official mod from then until about June 15th or 16th.

[Witherweaver]

@Ichi.  Okay, but why does this make Arch suspicious? 

[Ichimaru Gin]

@Ichi.  Okay, but why does this make Arch suspicious?

Because it just seems like poor reasoning to me. It's also arguing counter to what is seen as normal reads.
I mean, it's like Archetype ignores all of my D1 behavior and acts like that one post was the only one I made and takes issue with something that isn't even scummy.
That sort of thing'd be fine earlier on, but it seems really weird at this point. (And by weird I mean scummy).

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: Ichimaru

What I'm getting from him here, and looking back to his posting on day one, is that his posts feel like they're coming from scum who thinks that town is suspicious of him for the wrong reasons and is trying to deflect any suspicion. It's easy for scum to feel like there's more pressure on them than there actually is, and I find Ichi's reactions here (and his reactions day one) to be indicative of nervous scum.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Vote: Ichimaru

What I'm getting from him here, and looking back to his posting on day one, is that his posts feel like they're coming from scum who thinks that town is suspicious of him for the wrong reasons and is trying to deflect any suspicion. It's easy for scum to feel like there's more pressure on them than there actually is, and I find Ichi's reactions here (and his reactions day one) to be indicative of nervous scum.

Oh well. Just go ahead and ignore that I'm always reactive and defensive no matter what my alignment (and I have displayed exactly this same behavior multiple times as town).
That's fine though. It always turns out this way that me defending myself against bad arguments makes people want to vote for me.

[Ichimaru Gin]

bump.

Anyone else want to vote for me?

[jotheonah]

Ok, guys. We're in rough shape and that's no lie. But we also have lots and lots of information and interactions. If you're town, get re-reading. We can figure this out.

[Witherweaver]

@Ichi.  Okay, but why does this make Arch suspicious?

Because it just seems like poor reasoning to me. It's also arguing counter to what is seen as normal reads.
I mean, it's like Archetype ignores all of my D1 behavior and acts like that one post was the only one I made and takes issue with something that isn't even scummy.
That sort of thing'd be fine earlier on, but it seems really weird at this point. (And by weird I mean scummy).

Arch just joined though, right?

[A Drowned Kernel]

I feel like scott's choice of Voltaire and his explanation for it are odd. Several people said they found Volt towny day one but that was before the Robz lynch. I know that I at least find Voltaire scummier after what happened. And "I didn't have much time" might mean he had other stuff to worry about, like his faction's NK.

[Ichimaru Gin]

@Ichi.  Okay, but why does this make Arch suspicious?

Because it just seems like poor reasoning to me. It's also arguing counter to what is seen as normal reads.
I mean, it's like Archetype ignores all of my D1 behavior and acts like that one post was the only one I made and takes issue with something that isn't even scummy.
That sort of thing'd be fine earlier on, but it seems really weird at this point. (And by weird I mean scummy).

Arch just joined though, right?

Yes. That's right. Does that excuse anything though?
I mean, I've never subbed before; I appreciate him doing it and can see that it could be hard to follow everything going on.
But especially if you are town, it's important to make educated votes. Not voting someone for a bad reason and distracting from scum.

[scott_pilgrim]

I feel like scott's choice of Voltaire and his explanation for it are odd. Several people said they found Volt towny day one but that was before the Robz lynch. I know that I at least find Voltaire scummier after what happened. And "I didn't have much time" might mean he had other stuff to worry about, like his faction's NK.

Did Voltaire do something particularly scummy at the end of the day?  He was on the Robz wagon, but so were half of the people alive...Robz singled him out at twilight but I didn't understand why so I guess I didn't pay much attention to it.

Or was it his buddying Nik?  I found that to be towny, I don't think scum is as obvious about something like that as Voltaire was D1, he just seemed legitimately convinced that Nik was town.

[Voltaire]

Hey everyone, back and caught up. I won't have time to dig into the game until tonight though. I think we're actually in a good position to lynch scum today even if we're in a bad position overall!

[Witherweaver]

Hey everyone, back and caught up. I won't have time to dig into the game until tonight though. I think we're actually in a good position to lynch scum today even if we're in a bad position overall!

Man, if we rolled a die to lynch someone we'd be in a good position to lynch scum today.

[Witherweaver]

@Ichi.  Okay, but why does this make Arch suspicious?

Because it just seems like poor reasoning to me. It's also arguing counter to what is seen as normal reads.
I mean, it's like Archetype ignores all of my D1 behavior and acts like that one post was the only one I made and takes issue with something that isn't even scummy.
That sort of thing'd be fine earlier on, but it seems really weird at this point. (And by weird I mean scummy).

Arch just joined though, right?

Yes. That's right. Does that excuse anything though?
I mean, I've never subbed before; I appreciate him doing it and can see that it could be hard to follow everything going on.
But especially if you are town, it's important to make educated votes. Not voting someone for a bad reason and distracting from scum.

My thought was he'd react more to stuff happening now than Day 1 stuff.  I'm not quite so sure about what you're saying with the Day 1 vs. Day 2 thing though.

[Voltaire]

Hey everyone, back and caught up. I won't have time to dig into the game until tonight though. I think we're actually in a good position to lynch scum today even if we're in a bad position overall!

Man, if we rolled a die to lynch someone we'd be in a good position to lynch scum today.

ppppphtph 

[XerxesPraelor]

Let's do that, actually.

Rolled 1d11 : 8, total 8

[XerxesPraelor]

Didn't SP claim cop?

[Roll]1d10[/b]

[XerxesPraelor]

Rolled 1d10 : 2, total 2

[XerxesPraelor]

vote: Nik

[Voltaire]

vote: Nik

Worst choice.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Didn't SP claim cop?

Watcher, actually.

vote: Nik

Worst choice.

I'm starting to get really suspicious of this. I don't see what you find so towny about Nik, and you're going way, way out of your way to defend him.

[Witherweaver]

Didn't SP claim cop?

Watcher, actually.

vote: Nik

Worst choice.

I'm starting to get really suspicious of this. I don't see what you find so towny about Nik, and you're going way, way out of your way to defend him.

He did this heavily in HoC.  He was right.

I'm getting a little suspicious that Volt is trying really hard to emulate town!Volt, especially since Nik, Ichi, myself, and you were all in HoC with him.

[Witherweaver]

He also did the same kind of "hooray we're in a good spot to find scum" sentiment on the opening of Day 2 in that game.

[Voltaire]

I haven't had time to do the re-read necessary. What you're getting are my easy, off-the-top-of-my-head impressions. I always say I won't post until a full re-read, post anyway, and get misunderstood.

I will probably need some sort of night-action result to not find Nik town, really. I have a very good track record on reading new players, only being wrong once (grievously wrong, of course), I forget which game and what player.

As far as I understand it, the case on me is 1. "acting" town 2. Robz's misguided dying breath. Is there more I don't understand?

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm looking at how heavily you've been defending Nik. Either you're partners or you're scum hoping to get town cred for defending someone that you think is likely to flip town.

[chairs]

Bad news is I'm still catching up.

Good news is I should finally have my apartment back and be able to read instead of snatch snippets in between cases at work when I get home.

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, I am going back and rereading everything. I am still not done, but who really stands out to me is Xerxes. His voting and reasoning seems erratic, to me at least.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Bad news is I'm still catching up.

Good news is I should finally have my apartment back and be able to read instead of snatch snippets in between cases at work when I get home.

Whoa. Didn't Archetype replace you?

[Voltaire]

I'm looking at how heavily you've been defending Nik. Either you're partners or you're scum hoping to get town cred for defending someone that you think is likely to flip town.

I have a strong town read, someone voted strong town read, I'm going to point that out.

[Beyond Awesome]

Well, I am going back and rereading everything. I am still not done, but who really stands out to me is Xerxes. His voting and reasoning seems erratic, to me at least.

Looking back, EgorK doesn't seem to post much. Between him and Xerxes, that is where my vote lies. I feel better going after EgorK because he has been practically invisible this whole game and that makes him suspicious in my eyes.

Vote: EgorK

[Witherweaver]

Hey everyone, back and caught up. I won't have time to dig into the game until tonight though. I think we're actually in a good position to lynch scum today even if we're in a bad position overall!

Vote: Voltaire

Sorry I'm not buying this.  It's just reads like you trying to play like your meta.  Because next thing to happen is someone points out that it's silly to be optimistic with such a terrible night, and then someone (me) comes in and says, eh, this was the same way town!Volt acted before.  Or Nik once again votes for you and once again you get a stronger town read on him, and we say "just like before", and it's all just too convenient. 

Combine this with your heavy townread on Nik after the first thing he does being like HoC, it all just feels way too forced.

[Voltaire]

WW, I don't really know what to say if you're voting me for "acting" like town!Volt. I mean, really.  I have played other games on these forums - is HoC the only one we've had together? There's more to it than that.

I'm not denying 4 NKs is insane, btw, but by losing four townies our correct lynch % odds are through the roof. I actually don't mind losing people nearly as much as I used to.

[mail-mi]

Bad news is I'm still catching up.

Good news is I should finally have my apartment back and be able to read instead of snatch snippets in between cases at work when I get home.

Whoa. Didn't Archetype replace you?

Archetype did. He just posted mistakenly.

[Axxle]

Bad news is I'm still catching up.

Good news is I should finally have my apartment back and be able to read instead of snatch snippets in between cases at work when I get home.

Whoa. Didn't Archetype replace you?

Archetype did. He just posted mistakenly.

Can you update the OP to reflect this?

I'm officially off VLA now, I'll read through tonight.

[mail-mi]

Bad news is I'm still catching up.

Good news is I should finally have my apartment back and be able to read instead of snatch snippets in between cases at work when I get home.

Whoa. Didn't Archetype replace you?

Archetype did. He just posted mistakenly.

Can you update the OP to reflect this?

I'm officially off VLA now, I'll read through tonight.

Done

[AndrewisFTTW]

Vote Count 2.3

Ichimaru Gin (2): Archetype, A Drowned Kernal

Archetype (1): Nik

Nik (1): XerxesPraelor

EgorK (1): Beyond Awesome

Voltaire (1): Witherweaver


Not Voting (5): EgorK, Axxle  scott_pilgrim, Voltaire, Ichimaru Gin

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on Monday June 2 at 9:30 PM FT. Please note: mail-mi will be going to Spain around the 4th or 5th. AndrewisFTTW will be the official mod from then until about June 15th or 16th.

[Archetype]

Sorry, Chairs!

Ichimaru, my original vote on you was more of me not having much to go off on, seeing something semi-scummy, and then voting to see how they'd react. You got unnecessarily up in arms about it,  which I think is a scum trait. So I'm comfortable leaving my vote on you.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Sorry, Chairs!

Ichimaru, my original vote on you was more of me not having much to go off on, seeing something semi-scummy, and then voting to see how they'd react. You got unnecessarily up in arms about it,  which I think is a scum trait. So I'm comfortable leaving my vote on you.

K. I'm cool with that. I'm used to votes on me for that reason--so probably need to change something in my meta though, cause I don't think overreactive town!Ichimaru is working.

[XerxesPraelor]

I'm Kind of distracted by a certain ongoing game, but when that's done I'll start posting more, I promise.

[Nik]

Vote: egork for lurking.

[Voltaire]

Sorry, Chairs!

Ichimaru, my original vote on you was more of me not having much to go off on, seeing something semi-scummy, and then voting to see how they'd react. You got unnecessarily up in arms about it,  which I think is a scum trait. So I'm comfortable leaving my vote on you.

K. I'm cool with that. I'm used to votes on me for that reason--so probably need to change something in my meta though, cause I don't think overreactive town!Ichimaru is working.

You'd agree you've been overreactive?

[jotheonah]

I don't like a lurker lynch here. And I think a Voltaire lynch is not great, since he's been investigated twice. On pure statistics he's half as likely as anyone else to be scum.

If I could vote anymore, I think I'd be voting IG.

[Axxle]

vote: gin

[Ichimaru Gin]

Sorry, Chairs!

Ichimaru, my original vote on you was more of me not having much to go off on, seeing something semi-scummy, and then voting to see how they'd react. You got unnecessarily up in arms about it,  which I think is a scum trait. So I'm comfortable leaving my vote on you.

K. I'm cool with that. I'm used to votes on me for that reason--so probably need to change something in my meta though, cause I don't think overreactive town!Ichimaru is working.

You'd agree you've been overreactive?

Yeah. Is that scummy to admit the truth? I mean I'd hope that everyone would see that this is how I normally am as town. (Just look at HoC--and in an ongoing game I was in).
Seriously. I am a really bad lynch for today. Once again, people are voting me just based on my defensiveness and reactions, not anything else.

Doing a bit of a reread. I find it scummy that Axxle survived the night--and the same for S_P. In addition, with 4 dead town PR's, it is almost certain that one of S_P or Axxle is scum. Furthermore, taking a look at some of the points that ADK and ww have made on you are pretty convincing. Ever since HoC, I've been afraid that you and Nik would be scum together. With the way things are, I'm thinking that possibility is more likely.

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: Axxle
For sheeping and likely being a mafia governor.

[Witherweaver]

How would it be scummy that Axxle survives the night?  If he's town, he's vanilla.  Scum knows he was a primary lynch target, and everyone knows he's 50-50 scum in a vacuum.  Why kill him?

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: Axxle
For sheeping and likely being a mafia governor.

I even forgot that we have 5 members of town dead including the D1 lynch. So that's even better odds (I can see Voltaire's optimism about lynching scum today).
Furthermore, almost all of Axxle's posts are short--and the majority of them are votes.

PPE: ww

I guess that particular point may not speak to his alignment either way. However, the rest of them do. His vote on me now just looks really opportunistic--especially since the last thing he said about me was he had a town read on me.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I don't like a lurker lynch here. And I think a Voltaire lynch is not great, since he's been investigated twice. On pure statistics he's half as likely as anyone else to be scum.

If I could vote anymore, I think I'd be voting IG.

The thing about Voltaire is that I'm not sure that a Watcher investigation proves anything. The fact that no one but you tried to kill or target him last night makes it slightly more likely that he's scum, not less, and we do have a "not mafia" result on him but there are 2 possible other scum teams and the SK's (though if Volt is scum he's probably on a team with Nik).

[Ichimaru Gin]

I don't like a lurker lynch here. And I think a Voltaire lynch is not great, since he's been investigated twice. On pure statistics he's half as likely as anyone else to be scum.

If I could vote anymore, I think I'd be voting IG.

The thing about Voltaire is that I'm not sure that a Watcher investigation proves anything. The fact that no one but you tried to kill or target him last night makes it slightly more likely that he's scum, not less, and we do have a "not mafia" result on him but there are 2 possible other scum teams and the SK's (though if Volt is scum he's probably on a team with Nik).

I concur. I get a bit of a scumbud vibe for people finding Voltaire townie for information that's not that conclusive.

[Witherweaver]

I don't like a lurker lynch here. And I think a Voltaire lynch is not great, since he's been investigated twice. On pure statistics he's half as likely as anyone else to be scum.

If I could vote anymore, I think I'd be voting IG.

The thing about Voltaire is that I'm not sure that a Watcher investigation proves anything. The fact that no one but you tried to kill or target him last night makes it slightly more likely that he's scum, not less, and we do have a "not mafia" result on him but there are 2 possible other scum teams and the SK's (though if Volt is scum he's probably on a team with Nik).

I concur. I get a bit of a scumbud vibe for people finding Voltaire townie for information that's not that conclusive.

Which people are those?

[Ichimaru Gin]

I don't like a lurker lynch here. And I think a Voltaire lynch is not great, since he's been investigated twice. On pure statistics he's half as likely as anyone else to be scum.

If I could vote anymore, I think I'd be voting IG.

The thing about Voltaire is that I'm not sure that a Watcher investigation proves anything. The fact that no one but you tried to kill or target him last night makes it slightly more likely that he's scum, not less, and we do have a "not mafia" result on him but there are 2 possible other scum teams and the SK's (though if Volt is scum he's probably on a team with Nik).

I concur. I get a bit of a scumbud vibe for people finding Voltaire townie for information that's not that conclusive.

Which people are those?

Joth. And...I think S_P said something similar. So yeah, those two.

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, uh.  I don't think Joth is scum.

[Witherweaver]

I don't think Scott said something similar either (though maybe I missed it).  I think Scott said that Voltaire seemed townie day 1, which is why he chose Volt to Watch. 

[Ichimaru Gin]

Yeah, uh.  I don't think Joth is scum.

Oh. Yeah. Duh on me 

I still think it's a scummy line of reasoning. But I guess this proves that town is using it as well.

PPE: yeah. I went back through and it wasn't scott that said it, but I'm pretty sure that someone else did.

[Beyond Awesome]

I don't like a lurker lynch here. And I think a Voltaire lynch is not great, since he's been investigated twice. On pure statistics he's half as likely as anyone else to be scum.

If I could vote anymore, I think I'd be voting IG.

I think you have some good points. Voltaire is almost certainly town. I mean, yes, right now I am voting for EgorK because he is lurking. I mean that seems a bit suspicious to me, but maybe he has other things in life going on. I don't know. I guess I wished he was a little more active to get a better reading on him.

On Day 1, I felt IG was certainly town. However, he has a lot of analysis and talking going on which is a smart thing to do, especially if you are scum. I was thinking of voting him day 3 if he wasn't killed since someone who talks as much as him is likely to figure things out quicker. In other words, if he were not scum, he should be a prime target even if he has no PR simply because he seems like the type to put the pieces together. Also, him talking so much could be a way of him trying to look like town. But, the fact that he didn't die day 1 is perhaps telling. I mean, he was talking a lot in day 1. I would imagine scum would want to eliminate people that talk a lot. So, with that reasoning, I am going change my vote.

Vote: Ichimaru Gin

[Beyond Awesome]

I think that's L-2 for Ichi.

[mail-mi]

Vote Count 2.4

Ichimaru Gin (4): Archetype, A Drowned Kernel, Axxle, Beyond Awesome
Nik (1): XerxesPraelor
EgorK (1): Nik
Voltaire (1): Witherweaver
Axxle (1): Ichimaru Gin

Not Voting (3): EgorK, scott_pilgrim, Voltaire

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on Monday June 2 at 9:30 PM FT. Please note: mail-mi will be going to Spain around the 4th or 5th. AndrewisFTTW will be the official mod from then until about June 15th or 16th.

[Voltaire]

Still haven't re-read.  I can happily get behind a vote: axxle. I have a gut and I'm going to listen to it.

[Witherweaver]

Joth, what are you thinking the factions look like that Voltaire is half as likely to be scum?  He could be Mafia godfather or Mafia with that Alien ability existing anywhere, or any of the additional factions causing the night kills.  Also survivor, lyncher, ... Is there an "antilyncher"?

Anyway, lots of other possibilities.  I agree less likely, but I'm not sure it's that much.
 

[Voltaire]

As far as Ichi, I don't know. I don't know what WW tunneling me means either.

[Axxle]

Joth, what are you thinking the factions look like that Voltaire is half as likely to be scum?  He could be Mafia godfather or Mafia with that Alien ability existing anywhere, or any of the additional factions causing the night kills.  Also survivor, lyncher, ... Is there an "antilyncher"?

Anyway, lots of other possibilities.  I agree less likely, but I'm not sure it's that much.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Greater_Idea_Mafia

(no, not in this setup; although an unlyncher does exist as a concept)

[Ichimaru Gin]

Still haven't re-read.  I can happily get behind a vote: axxle. I have a gut and I'm going to listen to it.

This reads more like the Voltaire I've known before.
I was a little concerned before with you being so gun-ho for Axxle yesterday, and not much today.
But this makes more sense.

As far as Ichi, I don't know. I don't know what WW tunneling me means either.

I feel like you may be better at reading than me than others, but I am not sure.
Let's see, I think we've been in 2 games--one me as super inexperienced scum, and then HoC where I was basically an IC.

Aside from ADK, the rest of the people on my wagon are all mildly scummy to me.

And I now recall it was BA who earlier found Voltaire townie because of the watch and investigation on him (to answer ww's earlier question).

At any rate, I am happy with an Axxle lynch today. Nik is a little townier than before, but most of his posts are still votes. S_P hasn't been around much, but is he VLA? Oh, and Xerxes is very busy with another ongoing game--I've got mostly null reads on him. EgorK said he was rereading I believe; he's lurked so far though.

[scott_pilgrim]

S_P hasn't been around much, but is he VLA?

I'm not VLA anymore, I've just been putting off a re-read and feel unqualified to give any input before re-reading (there are now a huge number of known townies whose D1 interactions with other players we can consider).  Hopefully I will get to that tomorrow and be able to post something of more value.

Also, I'm not sure how much information I should give regarding my reads on other players, as it may make it easier for scum to figure out who I will watch and plan accordingly.  Though there is a very good chance I won't be alive tomorrow anyway, so maybe it doesn't matter (on the other hand, I didn't expect to be alive today, and here I am).

[Ichimaru Gin]

Well. I'm going to bed. We still have what, 5 or so days to the deadline?
If I die today, or tonight, I think it's important that we have joth--if there are any members of town left, he can at least be trusted by them. (just getting some statements out in case). I've posted a ton, so there'll be those interactions to see. I don't know, even if we lynch scum today--after losing all those town PR's...best to be optimistic though. It seems like scum would prefer to take out the other scumteams that pose a threat to them, so hopefully their reads will be better and they'll take each other out.

[Witherweaver]

Vote: Ichimaru. This is L-1

[jotheonah]

Stop. Halt. Desist.

[jotheonah]

Did some re-reading. No longer sold on IG. Think we might be out-tinkling ourselves. I want to talk more about Axxle and Voltaire. Have to go to work now, but hang on.

Also, Beyond Awesome's reply to my post is Beyond Scummy.

[Voltaire]

So, with that reasoning, I am going change my vote.

Are you talking about this, joth?

[jotheonah]

Let's break down the whole thing. He seems like he was trying to decide which lynch to push and then the IC came in and made it easy.

I think you have some good points. Voltaire is almost certainly town.

No one up until now has said "Voltaire is almost certainly town" (I said, he's less likely to be scum) and, as everyone else pointed out, the investigative results clear him less than most people think. It's a crazy ovrsimplification.

I mean, yes, right now I am voting for EgorK because he is lurking. I mean that seems a bit suspicious to me, but maybe he has other things in life going on. I don't know. I guess I wished he was a little more active to get a better reading on him.

"Well, this wagon didn't take off, time to try something new."

On Day 1, I felt IG was certainly town. However, he has a lot of analysis and talking going on which is a smart thing to do, especially if you are scum. I was thinking of voting him day 3 if he wasn't killed since someone who talks as much as him is likely to figure things out quicker. In other words, if he were not scum, he should be a prime target even if he has no PR simply because he seems like the type to put the pieces together. Also, him talking so much could be a way of him trying to look like town. But, the fact that he didn't die day 1 is perhaps telling. I mean, he was talking a lot in day 1. I would imagine scum would want to eliminate people that talk a lot. So, with that reasoning, I am going change my vote.

Vote: Ichimaru Gin

This is just a terrible case. He's scum because he's playing the game (never mind that Beyond Awesome just finished reasoning that EgorK was scum because he was NOT playing the game). And he's scum because he didn't die on a night when scum killed THREE MAJOR PRs! There's nothing here at all. It's a badly disguised bandwagon vote.

You guys should lynch Beyond Awesome. Or look back at his other posts and see if they are this scummy.

[Voltaire]

This is why I should have re-read!

vote: Beyond Awesome

[XerxesPraelor]

Let's break down the whole thing. He seems like he was trying to decide which lynch to push and then the IC came in and made it easy.

I think you have some good points. Voltaire is almost certainly town.

No one up until now has said "Voltaire is almost certainly town" (I said, he's less likely to be scum) and, as everyone else pointed out, the investigative results clear him less than most people think. It's a crazy ovrsimplification.

I mean, yes, right now I am voting for EgorK because he is lurking. I mean that seems a bit suspicious to me, but maybe he has other things in life going on. I don't know. I guess I wished he was a little more active to get a better reading on him.

"Well, this wagon didn't take off, time to try something new."

On Day 1, I felt IG was certainly town. However, he has a lot of analysis and talking going on which is a smart thing to do, especially if you are scum. I was thinking of voting him day 3 if he wasn't killed since someone who talks as much as him is likely to figure things out quicker. In other words, if he were not scum, he should be a prime target even if he has no PR simply because he seems like the type to put the pieces together. Also, him talking so much could be a way of him trying to look like town. But, the fact that he didn't die day 1 is perhaps telling. I mean, he was talking a lot in day 1. I would imagine scum would want to eliminate people that talk a lot. So, with that reasoning, I am going change my vote.

Vote: Ichimaru Gin

This is just a terrible case. He's scum because he's playing the game (never mind that Beyond Awesome just finished reasoning that EgorK was scum because he was NOT playing the game). And he's scum because he didn't die on a night when scum killed THREE MAJOR PRs! There's nothing here at all. It's a badly disguised bandwagon vote.

You guys should lynch Beyond Awesome. Or look back at his other posts and see if they are this scummy.

I think that's actually a great case - I just tuned out people's posts for the most part, but your analysis is spot-on.

vote: Beyond Awesome

[XerxesPraelor]

Also, he'd been putting mild suspicion on me for being "erratic" which I don't think is either scummy or anti-town, and as town I've found that people suspecting me tend to be more likely scum than not.

[Witherweaver]

Still haven't re-read.  I can happily get behind a vote: axxle. I have a gut and I'm going to listen to it.

This reads more like the Voltaire I've known before.
I was a little concerned before with you being so gun-ho for Axxle yesterday, and not much today.
But this makes more sense.

As far as Ichi, I don't know. I don't know what WW tunneling me means either.

I feel like you may be better at reading than me than others, but I am not sure.
Let's see, I think we've been in 2 games--one me as super inexperienced scum, and then HoC where I was basically an IC.

Aside from ADK, the rest of the people on my wagon are all mildly scummy to me.

And I now recall it was BA who earlier found Voltaire townie because of the watch and investigation on him (to answer ww's earlier question).

At any rate, I am happy with an Axxle lynch today. Nik is a little townier than before, but most of his posts are still votes. S_P hasn't been around much, but is he VLA? Oh, and Xerxes is very busy with another ongoing game--I've got mostly null reads on him. EgorK said he was rereading I believe; he's lurked so far though.

You recall this?  That confuses me.  Here are the posts in order:

I don't like a lurker lynch here. And I think a Voltaire lynch is not great, since he's been investigated twice. On pure statistics he's half as likely as anyone else to be scum.

If I could vote anymore, I think I'd be voting IG.

I don't like a lurker lynch here. And I think a Voltaire lynch is not great, since he's been investigated twice. On pure statistics he's half as likely as anyone else to be scum.

If I could vote anymore, I think I'd be voting IG.

The thing about Voltaire is that I'm not sure that a Watcher investigation proves anything. The fact that no one but you tried to kill or target him last night makes it slightly more likely that he's scum, not less, and we do have a "not mafia" result on him but there are 2 possible other scum teams and the SK's (though if Volt is scum he's probably on a team with Nik).

I don't like a lurker lynch here. And I think a Voltaire lynch is not great, since he's been investigated twice. On pure statistics he's half as likely as anyone else to be scum.

If I could vote anymore, I think I'd be voting IG.

The thing about Voltaire is that I'm not sure that a Watcher investigation proves anything. The fact that no one but you tried to kill or target him last night makes it slightly more likely that he's scum, not less, and we do have a "not mafia" result on him but there are 2 possible other scum teams and the SK's (though if Volt is scum he's probably on a team with Nik).

I concur. I get a bit of a scumbud vibe for people finding Voltaire townie for information that's not that conclusive.

I don't like a lurker lynch here. And I think a Voltaire lynch is not great, since he's been investigated twice. On pure statistics he's half as likely as anyone else to be scum.

If I could vote anymore, I think I'd be voting IG.

I think you have some good points. Voltaire is almost certainly town. I mean, yes, right now I am voting for EgorK because he is lurking. I mean that seems a bit suspicious to me, but maybe he has other things in life going on. I don't know. I guess I wished he was a little more active to get a better reading on him.

On Day 1, I felt IG was certainly town. However, he has a lot of analysis and talking going on which is a smart thing to do, especially if you are scum. I was thinking of voting him day 3 if he wasn't killed since someone who talks as much as him is likely to figure things out quicker. In other words, if he were not scum, he should be a prime target even if he has no PR simply because he seems like the type to put the pieces together. Also, him talking so much could be a way of him trying to look like town. But, the fact that he didn't die day 1 is perhaps telling. I mean, he was talking a lot in day 1. I would imagine scum would want to eliminate people that talk a lot. So, with that reasoning, I am going change my vote.

Vote: Ichimaru Gin

Still haven't re-read.  I can happily get behind a vote: axxle. I have a gut and I'm going to listen to it.

This reads more like the Voltaire I've known before.
I was a little concerned before with you being so gun-ho for Axxle yesterday, and not much today.
But this makes more sense.

As far as Ichi, I don't know. I don't know what WW tunneling me means either.

I feel like you may be better at reading than me than others, but I am not sure.
Let's see, I think we've been in 2 games--one me as super inexperienced scum, and then HoC where I was basically an IC.

Aside from ADK, the rest of the people on my wagon are all mildly scummy to me.

And I now recall it was BA who earlier found Voltaire townie because of the watch and investigation on him (to answer ww's earlier question).

At any rate, I am happy with an Axxle lynch today. Nik is a little townier than before, but most of his posts are still votes. S_P hasn't been around much, but is he VLA? Oh, and Xerxes is very busy with another ongoing game--I've got mostly null reads on him. EgorK said he was rereading I believe; he's lurked so far though.

How, at 5:45 PM, do you recall BA finding Voltaire townie, which happened at 6:27 PM?

I checked his posts.  No other mention of Voltaire's towniness.

[Witherweaver]

Also, he'd been putting mild suspicion on me for being "erratic" which I don't think is either scummy or anti-town, and as town I've found that people suspecting me tend to be more likely scum than not.

Well, also, in the post where he did it:

Well, I am going back and rereading everything. I am still not done, but who really stands out to me is Xerxes. His voting and reasoning seems erratic, to me at least.

he's setting himself up for a justified vote against you.  Though he votes for EgorK next (while still maintaining suspicion of you).  I'm not sure of a scum reasoning for doing this unless one of you or EgorK are on the same team as Beyond Awesome.  Possibly to test the waters for getting wagons started.

Also, I think the manner in which he hopped on Ichi's wagon shows that Ichi and Beyond Awesome aren't of the same faction. 

[Witherweaver]

I shouldn't have said "recall" in the last sentence of my post two posts above.  What I meant is how could you have been thinking about it if it hadn't happened at that time?  The tl;dr version is:

3:36: Joth says Voltaire is a bad lynch because of investigations
4:33: ADK disagrees with Joth about Voltaire being cleared
5:45: Ichi agrees with ADK and says people finding Voltaire townie are scummy (the only one of which is the confirmed treestumped town Joth)
(didn't quote) 5:47: I ask Ichi who these people are, Ichi says Joth and SP, we confirm Joth is town and SP didn't say it
6:27: BA says Voltaire is almost certainly town
7:14: Ichi recalls that at 5:45 he was thinking of something that happened in the future

[jotheonah]

ok, so maybe they're both scum on different teams?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Vote Count 2.5

Ichimaru Gin (5): Archetype, A Drowned Kernel, Axxle, Beyond Awesome, Witherweaver L-1
EgorK (1): Nik
Axxle (1): Ichimaru Gin
Beyond Awesome (2): Voltaire, XerxesPraelor

Not Voting (2): EgorK, scott_pilgrim

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on Monday June 2 at 9:30 PM FT. Please note: mail-mi will be going to Spain around the 4th or 5th. AndrewisFTTW will be the official mod from then until about June 15th or 16th.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Vote: Ichimaru. This is L-1

Ok. First of all, do you really think it's a good idea to put me at L-1 with no claim, like 5 days left, and likely very few members of town still alive?

6:27: BA says Voltaire is almost certainly town
7:14: Ichi recalls that at 5:45 he was thinking of something that happened in the future

Interesting™
I really don't have an answer to this. I thought that I remembered that BA was the one who had said it, but I guess not. That he then fulfilled what I thought he had done in the past is somewhat odd. I won't make any jokes about precognition, but I'm tempted to.

I could lynch BA. Although his case on me was very scummy, he is new, so some of it could be due to that. But man, I mean Axxle totally sheeped my wagon and hasn't even really responded to any of the votes on him. They're my two preferences today.

Heh, but I'm still at L-1. Well I guess it's good that no one's hammered me yet. Again, I'll claim if necessary. Seriously though, if there are any real townies on my wagon, please unvote. Archetype's vote is weak, Axxle is sheeping, BA made a scummy case...it's all very suspect.

[Witherweaver]

Why would anyone hammer here?  That would certainly be a scummy thing to do.

I don't see any merit in waiting for L-1.  I think you should claim if you're going to.

[XerxesPraelor]

Is this BA's first time? If so I'd prefer to not lynch them today at least.

[XerxesPraelor]

I also think IG should claim.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Why would anyone hammer here?  That would certainly be a scummy thing to do.

I don't see any merit in waiting for L-1.  I think you should claim if you're going to.

Dude. It wouldn't really matter if there's a scum (combined scumteams) majority, would it?

And man. We're only halfway through D2 and the case on me sucks. Why are you and XP pressuring me to claim?

I'd really like to hear from other people. Preferably people that I have townreads on.

[jotheonah]

Is this BA's first time? If so I'd prefer to not lynch them today at least.

Why is that at all relevant?

[Witherweaver]

Why would anyone hammer here?  That would certainly be a scummy thing to do.

I don't see any merit in waiting for L-1.  I think you should claim if you're going to.

Dude. It wouldn't really matter if there's a scum (combined scumteams) majority, would it?

And man. We're only halfway through D2 and the case on me sucks. Why are you and XP pressuring me to claim?

I'd really like to hear from other people. Preferably people that I have townreads on.

I don't follow the first point at all.  What do you mean combined scumteams majority?

The case on you does not suck.  Particularly the point about you scrambling to find anyone else scummy that you indicated that the only person around that is confirmed town is scummy.  And then a statement which could not have been true.  Also particularly is your constant appeals to your meta.  "Overly defensive Ichi is town Ichi", "I'm acting like I always do as town," etc.  (Yes those are paraphrased.)  Also particularly that you're jumping on the people that anyone could easily get traction for a wagon---Axxle, SP, who both narrowly avoided lynches yesterday so people should be eager to jump on them today.  And then BA after a good case is made against him.

You should claim now (if you're going to at all) because if you're not going to be lynched today, we should find someone else.  It's much worse to have that happen in the last day/hours before deadline.  What's the advantage to waiting?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Why would anyone hammer here?  That would certainly be a scummy thing to do.

I don't see any merit in waiting for L-1.  I think you should claim if you're going to.

Dude. It wouldn't really matter if there's a scum (combined scumteams) majority, would it?

And man. We're only halfway through D2 and the case on me sucks. Why are you and XP pressuring me to claim?

I'd really like to hear from other people. Preferably people that I have townreads on.

I don't follow the first point at all.  What do you mean combined scumteams majority?

The case on you does not suck.  Particularly the point about you scrambling to find anyone else scummy that you indicated that the only person around that is confirmed town is scummy.  And then a statement which could not have been true.  Also particularly is your constant appeals to your meta.  "Overly defensive Ichi is town Ichi", "I'm acting like I always do as town," etc.  (Yes those are paraphrased.)  Also particularly that you're jumping on the people that anyone could easily get traction for a wagon---Axxle, SP, who both narrowly avoided lynches yesterday so people should be eager to jump on them today.  And then BA after a good case is made against him.

You should claim now (if you're going to at all) because if you're not going to be lynched today, we should find someone else.  It's much worse to have that happen in the last day/hours before deadline.  What's the advantage to waiting?

I mean that size of scumteam x + scumteam y, etc could be bigger than the size of town after you lynch me.

I distinctly mentioned BA's newness and factored that into whether I wanted to lynch him or not--I was not jumping on BA, so that point is illegitimate. Anyone is better than me since I don't know who else is town. You have tunneled me basically since D1, so I find your points about my legitimate reads on Axxle and S_P quite ironic considering that you were basically setting me up for a mislynch yesterday.

You say "narrowly avoided lynches" like you want to protect them or something. I think for sure at least one of them is scum. Yes, I have appealed to my meta, but no one seems to care about that. I guess I'll just claim now since you've got XP around to hammer me.

I am a Lover.

[Witherweaver]

So if # scumteam x + # scumteam y > #town, why does that matter?  Why are only two scumteams used?

You said BA and Axxle were your two preferences for today.  Earlier you tried to peg SP by doing something scummy which he didn't do.  Those points aren't illegitimate.

This has nothing to do with the alignment of BA, Axxle, SP, except that they're likely different from yours.  They could still be scum.  The point I'm making is that it looks, to me, like you're trying to jump to the next-most-likely person to get lynched today.

I see a lot of Lovers on the list.  What was the card?

[Ichimaru Gin]

So if # scumteam x + # scumteam y > #town, why does that matter?  Why are only two scumteams used?

You said BA and Axxle were your two preferences for today.  Earlier you tried to peg SP by doing something scummy which he didn't do.  Those points aren't illegitimate.

This has nothing to do with the alignment of BA, Axxle, SP, except that they're likely different from yours.  They could still be scum.  The point I'm making is that it looks, to me, like you're trying to jump to the next-most-likely person to get lynched today.

I see a lot of Lovers on the list.  What was the card?

Uh. I can't believe how hard you are working to misinterpret what I say and find it scummy. I said scumteam x and scumteam y , etc!!

I kept the card chapel

Please, is there anyone else around who is actually going to listen?

Everyone, if ww succeeds in killing me today, kill him tomorrow; I am almost sure he is scum.

[Axxle]

unvote

[Axxle]

vote: xp

[Witherweaver]

Oh, sorry.  But I still don't get the sum greater than town thing.

[Witherweaver]

How do Lovers work?  Is the partner selected randomly, or does it come from another Lover role?

[Ichimaru Gin]

How do Lovers work?  Is the partner selected randomly, or does it come from another Lover role?

I do not have a partner. Thus I can only assume that it, like everything else, was randomly card based and no one had another lover role.

[A Drowned Kernel]

In this setup, everyone who picked a "Lover" role is a lover with each other. If one dies, they all die (I think that's how it works).

There are vanilla lovers but also the possibility for lovers within the various scum factions.

That said, the possibility of killing multiple town players with one lynch is probably a risk we don't want to take, so unvote.

PPE: Do you know you have no partner, or are lovers just not informed?

[Ichimaru Gin]

In this setup, everyone who picked a "Lover" role is a lover with each other. If one dies, they all die (I think that's how it works).

There are vanilla lovers but also the possibility for lovers within the various scum factions.

That said, the possibility of killing multiple town players with one lynch is probably a risk we don't want to take, so unvote.

PPE: Do you know you have no partner, or are lovers just not informed?

Well my role PM said that I didn't have a partner. And I don't have a qt or anything.

[Witherweaver]

There is only one Mafia Lover and one Alien Lover.  Are they part of the same group as Town Lover from Chapel?  I know it says the "Loverizer" type roles creates different groups.

[Ichimaru Gin]

There is only one Mafia Lover and one Alien Lover.  Are they part of the same group as Town Lover from Chapel?  I know it says the "Loverizer" type roles creates different groups.

Well if they do exist, I at least can't communicate with them. It's a good question though.

[Witherweaver]

Oh, sorry.  But I still don't get the sum greater than town thing.

I legitimately missed the "etc" when I read your post Ichi, but regardless this is the thing I'm not understanding.  So my question is rephrased as "So if (sum of all scumteam cardonalities) > # town, what does that mean"?

[A Drowned Kernel]

So I'm inclined to believe Ichi's claim, given how risky it would be to have the "no other lovers" bit counterclaimed.

I wouldn't avoid lynching BA just because he's new. Scummy is scummy.

PPE: from what I remember only the "loverizer" group is separate. All other lovers would be in one group, and if ichi's PM specifically says he has no partner, I'm inclined to believe that there aren't any other lovers.

If there are, of course, please come claim and we can lynch Ichi. But I don't think he'd take that risk as scum.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Oh, sorry.  But I still don't get the sum greater than town thing.

I legitimately missed the "etc" when I read your post Ichi, but regardless this is the thing I'm not understanding.  So my question is rephrased as "So if (sum of all scumteam cardonalities) > # town, what does that mean"?

Oh. I see. I meant it as meaning that your comment about someone not hammering me because it seemed scummy was less likely.
e.g. with a scum majority they wouldn't care.

PPE: 1

[Witherweaver]

Oh, sorry.  But I still don't get the sum greater than town thing.

I legitimately missed the "etc" when I read your post Ichi, but regardless this is the thing I'm not understanding.  So my question is rephrased as "So if (sum of all scumteam cardonalities) > # town, what does that mean"?

Oh. I see. I meant it as meaning that your comment about someone not hammering me because it seemed scummy was less likely.
e.g. with a scum majority they wouldn't care.

PPE: 1

Right, but what are you suggesting, that different scum factions are working together to get a combined majority over the town?

[Witherweaver]

So I'm inclined to believe Ichi's claim, given how risky it would be to have the "no other lovers" bit counterclaimed.

I wouldn't avoid lynching BA just because he's new. Scummy is scummy.

PPE: from what I remember only the "loverizer" group is separate. All other lovers would be in one group, and if ichi's PM specifically says he has no partner, I'm inclined to believe that there aren't any other lovers.

If there are, of course, please come claim and we can lynch Ichi. But I don't think he'd take that risk as scum.

If he knows he has no Lovers, then he can safely make this claim as Alien (Lighthouse) or Mafia (Procession) Lover.  However, there are three Chapels and only one of each of Lighthouse and Procession, so 60% town by uninformed chance alone.  Well there are two other Town Lovers, but he wouldn't say he had Chapel if he had one of those.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Oh, sorry.  But I still don't get the sum greater than town thing.

I legitimately missed the "etc" when I read your post Ichi, but regardless this is the thing I'm not understanding.  So my question is rephrased as "So if (sum of all scumteam cardonalities) > # town, what does that mean"?

Oh. I see. I meant it as meaning that your comment about someone not hammering me because it seemed scummy was less likely.
e.g. with a scum majority they wouldn't care.

PPE: 1

Right, but what are you suggesting, that different scum factions are working together to get a combined majority over the town?

Just that if there's a scum majority then it's not like they'd be concerned about looking scummy. I don't think (hope) that this is the case at this point. But if we were to lose another member of town, I'm not sure. Also, yeah, I'm not sure who would even know how many total scum there were, but maybe if one faction were bigger than the others, they'd have a better idea.

PPE: 1

[XerxesPraelor]

I wasn't going to hammer IG, even if he didn't claim. I just thought that in such a precarious position, we'd want to have the information in case IG had a result, so that scum wouldn't hammer and deny us the information.

If BA is scummy but new, we can lynch him tomorrow - I don't think we're in that urgent a situation that we need to hit scum for sure today. He might die in the night to other scum teams that see his scumminess, so we'd be wasting our lynch.

[Witherweaver]

I wasn't going to hammer IG, even if he didn't claim. I just thought that in such a precarious position, we'd want to have the information in case IG had a result, so that scum wouldn't hammer and deny us the information.

If BA is scummy but new, we can lynch him tomorrow - I don't think we're in that urgent a situation that we need to hit scum for sure today. He might die in the night to other scum teams that see his scumminess, so we'd be wasting our lynch.

You don't?

[XerxesPraelor]

No, especially if as a whole we see who's scummy, because then hopefully scum will shoot eachother.

PPE: I just connected the fact that we're in day two with my reluctance to lynch BA on day 1. I'm actually perfectly okay with lynching him now - the one day grace period is over.

[Beyond Awesome]

Just woke up. Unvote

[Beyond Awesome]

Trust me guys, more than anything, I want us to lynch scum. I was basing my Ichi vote based off what joth said because I trust him more than any player since he is dead. Joth said he wasn't sure about going after a rather inactive player, so that is why I removed my vote on him. And, joth said he felt ichi was scum, so I agreed with joth and listed my reasoning for such. I don't see why agreeing with a dead town member makes me look like scum. I guess maybe my reasoning may have looked a bit scummy, but I was just trying to think things through before making my vote against ich.

[A Drowned Kernel]

How do you feel about his claim?

[jotheonah]

Trust me guys, more than anything, I want us to lynch scum. I was basing my Ichi vote based off what joth said because I trust him more than any player since he is dead. Joth said he wasn't sure about going after a rather inactive player, so that is why I removed my vote on him. And, joth said he felt ichi was scum, so I agreed with joth and listed my reasoning for such. I don't see why agreeing with a dead town member makes me look like scum. I guess maybe my reasoning may have looked a bit scummy, but I was just trying to think things through before making my vote against ich.

Because you weren't thinking for yourself! sheeping me just gives you a convenient excuse when someone flips town.

[Voltaire]

Is this BA's first time? If so I'd prefer to not lynch them today at least.

Why is that at all relevant?

It's only relevant on D1.

Here, catching up.

[Voltaire]

OK, I think that IG is much more likely town, I now have a reasonably large scum read on WW as this whole thing goes down (driving me, twisting IG's words, the whole looking-at-the-timestamps thing (there's no way town does that, no way at all, town makes those kinds of misrememberings, not scum, it's part of a fake case), and I maintain a large scum read on BA. xp, light town I think?

A-ok with a BA or WW lynch today.

[jotheonah]

I'm not going to lay down a lynch order from on high. Vote your conscience kids.

[Witherweaver]

OK, I think that IG is much more likely town, I now have a reasonably large scum read on WW as this whole thing goes down (driving me, twisting IG's words, the whole looking-at-the-timestamps thing (there's no way town does that, no way at all, town makes those kinds of misrememberings, not scum, it's part of a fake case), and I maintain a large scum read on BA. xp, light town I think?

A-ok with a BA or WW lynch today.

I did no twisting of words at all.

Sure, it could have been a misremembering, but it looked to me like "quick! I need to deflect suspicion!"

[Voltaire]

OK, I think that IG is much more likely town, I now have a reasonably large scum read on WW as this whole thing goes down (driving me, twisting IG's words, the whole looking-at-the-timestamps thing (there's no way town does that, no way at all, town makes those kinds of misrememberings, not scum, it's part of a fake case), and I maintain a large scum read on BA. xp, light town I think?

A-ok with a BA or WW lynch today.

I did no twisting of words at all.

Sure, it could have been a misremembering, but it looked to me like "quick! I need to deflect suspicion!"

You are right that you didn't twist words so much as point out a "misremembering" that never actually comes from scum (in my experience) and always from town. And this sort of argument (the kind you made) more often comes from scum. Then there is the you pushing me thing, which doesn't make you scum but seems so strange to me.

I think I'd rather lynch BA before you, though, and so my vote remains on him.

[Witherweaver]

You are right that you didn't twist words so much as point out a "misremembering" that never actually comes from scum (in my experience) and always from town. And this sort of argument (the kind you made) more often comes from scum. Then there is the you pushing me thing, which doesn't make you scum but seems so strange to me.

I think I'd rather lynch BA before you, though, and so my vote remains on him.

Well, I don't know about the "misremembering" thing only coming from town as I don't have enough experience to say that.  So you may be right.  To me I read a statement which cannot, logically, be true.

As for you, consider it from my perspective.  There were multiple things that were so similar to HoC that it's eerie.  And your certainty that Nik is town should have gone down significantly by pure statistics alone.   

[Voltaire]

Well, yeah, blind statistics say Nik is more likely scum today, but again, look at HoC: most of his posts were (in my opinion) poorly-reasoned votes, which ramped up on later days, and scum talked shraeye and the rest of town into mislynching him.

Which is what I see here (except for the mislynch part).

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: Axxle

I feel like he's flying under the radar. He sort of disappeared after Governing his own lynch, which isn't how I feel a town Governor would play it. Town Governor would get more involved after that. Scum Governor would lie low and hope that the momentum required to get his lynch going again would be enough to stop it from actually happening.

RE: people who are actually posting- I would be okay lynching BA. I also didn't consider the possibility, I think pointed out by WW, that Ichi is a scum lover and is telling the truth that he doesn't have partners. That's the perfect claiming situation for scum, since they know they won't be counterclaimed, and provides the perfect fallback, which would allow him to put himself out there as much as he has this game. So I think I would be okay going back to an Ichi lynch too.

[Voltaire]

I forgot about axxle. He's the third person I'd be happy lynching today.

[Beyond Awesome]

I get a very strong scum vibe off of WW. He is my preferred lynch over Axxle who is also suspicious to me, as well. However, I think WW is more likely scum or even possibly they are both scum.

[Witherweaver]

I get a very strong scum vibe off of WW. He is my preferred lynch over Axxle who is also suspicious to me, as well. However, I think WW is more likely scum or even possibly they are both scum.

What is suspicious about Axxle to you?

[Beyond Awesome]

I get a very strong scum vibe off of WW. He is my preferred lynch over Axxle who is also suspicious to me, as well. However, I think WW is more likely scum or even possibly they are both scum.

What is suspicious about Axxle to you?

The fact that he seems to be posting very little D2. And, while I initially thought it was likely he picked Governor, I also think he may have thought that discarding Mountebank may have been more likely to have given him a scummy role if he had Nobles in his hand. Regardless, it is a 50/50 shot that Axxle is scum.

[Witherweaver]

I get a very strong scum vibe off of WW. He is my preferred lynch over Axxle who is also suspicious to me, as well. However, I think WW is more likely scum or even possibly they are both scum.

What is suspicious about Axxle to you?

The fact that he seems to be posting very little D2. And, while I initially thought it was likely he picked Governor, I also think he may have thought that discarding Mountebank may have been more likely to have given him a scummy role if he had Nobles in his hand. Regardless, it is a 50/50 shot that Axxle is scum.

How could that (bolded part) be true?

What's the probability that a generic player that is still alive is scum?

[Beyond Awesome]

I get a very strong scum vibe off of WW. He is my preferred lynch over Axxle who is also suspicious to me, as well. However, I think WW is more likely scum or even possibly they are both scum.

What is suspicious about Axxle to you?

The fact that he seems to be posting very little D2. And, while I initially thought it was likely he picked Governor, I also think he may have thought that discarding Mountebank may have been more likely to have given him a scummy role if he had Nobles in his hand. Regardless, it is a 50/50 shot that Axxle is scum.

How could that (bolded part) be true?

What's the probability that a generic player that is still alive is scum?

I arrived at the conclusion because that was my line of reasoning. Initially, before the roles were reshuffled, I discarded King's Court thinking the other card would be more powerful, which actually ended up not being the case at all. And, as it is, we know there are two Governors, so that gives Axxle a 50% chance at being scum.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Vote: Axxle

I feel like he's flying under the radar. He sort of disappeared after Governing his own lynch, which isn't how I feel a town Governor would play it. Town Governor would get more involved after that. Scum Governor would lie low and hope that the momentum required to get his lynch going again would be enough to stop it from actually happening.

RE: people who are actually posting- I would be okay lynching BA. I also didn't consider the possibility, I think pointed out by WW, that Ichi is a scum lover and is telling the truth that he doesn't have partners. That's the perfect claiming situation for scum, since they know they won't be counterclaimed, and provides the perfect fallback, which would allow him to put himself out there as much as he has this game. So I think I would be okay going back to an Ichi lynch too.

As an observation. I think it's worth noting that ADK has gotten almost zero suspicion and has avoided attention almost entirely. I don't get a particularly scummy feeling from him, but I felt the same in HoC when he was scum. I didn't actually know the rules about lovers, but now I understand them I think.

That's what makes it an interesting role if you actually have partners, because your fellow lover(s) could be of different alignments right?

[Witherweaver]

I arrived at the conclusion because that was my line of reasoning. Initially, before the roles were reshuffled, I discarded King's Court thinking the other card would be more powerful, which actually ended up not being the case at all. And, as it is, we know there are two Governors, so that gives Axxle a 50% chance at being scum.

Oh, you mean you thought your role was some combination of what you discarded and what you kept, instead of a 1-1 correspondence with the card you kept?

I could see that, but I don't see why you would think Axxle would think that, since Axxle came out with a pretty clear knowledge of how this setup worked.  He even justified his reason for keeping Governor, so he was clearly thinking what the kept card means in terms of the role.

And to the other point, I was asking you: We have 11 players alive.  Pick one randomly.  What's the chance he's scum?

Obviously we don't know, but it's probably bigger than 50%.  This should indicate that (1) Someone that is 50/50 is *more likely* to be town than the average player, and (2) Axxle (and Scott P who is in the same boat) should be more likely to be scum than 50%.

[Beyond Awesome]

I arrived at the conclusion because that was my line of reasoning. Initially, before the roles were reshuffled, I discarded King's Court thinking the other card would be more powerful, which actually ended up not being the case at all. And, as it is, we know there are two Governors, so that gives Axxle a 50% chance at being scum.

Oh, you mean you thought your role was some combination of what you discarded and what you kept, instead of a 1-1 correspondence with the card you kept?

I could see that, but I don't see why you would think Axxle would think that, since Axxle came out with a pretty clear knowledge of how this setup worked.  He even justified his reason for keeping Governor, so he was clearly thinking what the kept card means in terms of the role.

And to the other point, I was asking you: We have 11 players alive.  Pick one randomly.  What's the chance he's scum?

Obviously we don't know, but it's probably bigger than 50%.  This should indicate that (1) Someone that is 50/50 is *more likely* to be town than the average player, and (2) Axxle (and Scott P who is in the same boat) should be more likely to be scum than 50%.

Yes, that was what I was saying. And, I did not know that Axxle had a better idea of how the setup worked. Well, that changes things for me. In that case, I think it is much more likely that he chose to keep Governor rather than Nobles.

[Beyond Awesome]

However, I do think that this conversation is you trying to deflect my instincts about you being scum and try to change my opinion of you.

Vote: WW

[Witherweaver]

However, I do think that this conversation is you trying to deflect my instincts about you being scum and try to change my opinion of you.

Vote: WW

Nope, it's me questioning your casual throwing in of Axxle as a scum read along with me for no justifiable reason.  (Oh, except that someone else brought him up before.  Remember the sheeping thing?)

[A Drowned Kernel]

As an observation. I think it's worth noting that ADK has gotten almost zero suspicion and has avoided attention almost entirely.

See, it's stuff like this that give me a scum read on you. It's like you're fishing around and testing the waters, trying to put something out there and see if someone else will bite. It's the "I'm okay with any lynch but me" mentality.

[Witherweaver]

However, I do think that this conversation is you trying to deflect my instincts about you being scum and try to change my opinion of you.

Vote: WW

It's also worth noting that there is nothing for me to deflect since you say anything about me other than your vibe.  If you had made a case, and then I had started talking about everything but the substance of that case, then I could be deflecting.

[Witherweaver]

Typo: since you didn't say anything about me other than your vibe

[AndrewisFTTW]

Vote Count 2.6

Ichimaru Gin (2): Archetype, Witherweaver
EgorK (1): Nik
Axxle (2): Ichimaru Gin, A Drowned Kernal
Beyond Awesome (2): Voltaire, XerxesPraelor
XerxesPraelor (1): Axxle
Witherweaver (1): Beyond Awesome

Not Voting (2): EgorK, scott_pilgrim

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on Monday June 2 at 9:30 PM FT. Please note: mail-mi will be going to Spain around the 4th or 5th. AndrewisFTTW will be the official mod from then until about June 15th or 16th.

[Archetype]

Hey guys. Been sort of busy and had to manage my time on f.ds. Since the deadline for this one is later, its at the bottom of my list.

I could lynch Ichimaru, scott_pilgrim, or Axxle. Ichimaru for reasons stated previously and scott/Axxle because they have a 50/50 chance at flipping scum. I still need to reread those two to figure out which it is.

[Voltaire]

I could lynch Ichimaru, scott_pilgrim, or Axxle. Ichimaru for reasons stated previously and scott/Axxle because they have a 50/50 chance at flipping scum. I still need to reread those two to figure out which it is.

This is a very D1 list. Have you read D2 yet?

[Beyond Awesome]

I just wanted everyone to know that I had a chance to look over on the mafia wiki. It was down for the past few days, and so now I read up on a few roles and realized that I misunderstood a few things. First, I was inferring some of the roles based on chat on here. So, I looked up joths and SPs roles and realized what took place and that joth investigated Volt getting the result Not Mafia which is not saying much since it is likely he can be some other form of scum. For some reason, I thought people were arguing whether or not volt could give a false reading. Sorry guys. Anyway, with that said, I would say that it stands to reason that joths results don't say much about volt, so he can very well likely be scum.

Anyway, now that the wiki is up, I have a much, much better idea of roles and all that type of stuff. So, I am now a much better informed player.

[Axxle]

I just wanted everyone to know that I had a chance to look over on the mafia wiki. It was down for the past few days, and so now I read up on a few roles and realized that I misunderstood a few things. First, I was inferring some of the roles based on chat on here. So, I looked up joths and SPs roles and realized what took place and that joth investigated Volt getting the result Not Mafia which is not saying much since it is likely he can be some other form of scum. For some reason, I thought people were arguing whether or not volt could give a false reading. Sorry guys. Anyway, with that said, I would say that it stands to reason that joths results don't say much about volt, so he can very well likely be scum.

Anyway, now that the wiki is up, I have a much, much better idea of roles and all that type of stuff. So, I am now a much better informed player.

There was a bit of that talk. Someone mentioned the "Alien Psychotrooper (While alive, all cops with 'guilty/not guilty' format results are Insane)". I think it's safe to assume he doesn't exist unless he flips though.

[EgorK]

Really sorry guys. We have release shortly so I had little time for reread and not ready to commit lunching anyone before analyzing all interaction with flips on day 1, through I am itching to vote BA based on what he did lately

I will surely catch up during weekend and provide my reads here

[EgorK]

And to the other point, I was asking you: We have 11 players alive.  Pick one randomly.  What's the chance he's scum?

Obviously we don't know, but it's probably bigger than 50%.  This should indicate that (1) Someone that is 50/50 is *more likely* to be town than the average player, and (2) Axxle (and Scott P who is in the same boat) should be more likely to be scum than 50%.

Mathematically speaking it is not true. Please note I do not talk about Axxle in particular here, just about math

So let's imagine experiment: we first put marked white ball in the box with probability 50% otherwise we would put marked black ball, and then add some unmarked balls so that there is total 8 white and 8 black balls. Then we close box, take away 5 balls at random and they all happen to be unmarked balls. What is the probability that random marked ball is white now? Well, it is not 50%. It is actually the same as for random ball, not necessarily marked. That is difference between apriori and aposteriori probabilities

We do not deal with completely random events here so this should be taken with the grain of salt. It just my pet peeve when people talking about probabilities without actually contemplating what math would say

[XerxesPraelor]

It is still 50%, unless you meant that the other ones we know are all White or something.

[EgorK]

It is still 50%, unless you meant that the other ones we know are all White or something.

Sorry, yes, unmarked white balls of course

[Axxle]

Guys, this is not a probability game, it's a social one.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Town is now "unmarked white balls"? That's just wrong...

[Witherweaver]

And to the other point, I was asking you: We have 11 players alive.  Pick one randomly.  What's the chance he's scum?

Obviously we don't know, but it's probably bigger than 50%.  This should indicate that (1) Someone that is 50/50 is *more likely* to be town than the average player, and (2) Axxle (and Scott P who is in the same boat) should be more likely to be scum than 50%.

Mathematically speaking it is not true. Please note I do not talk about Axxle in particular here, just about math

So let's imagine experiment: we first put marked white ball in the box with probability 50% otherwise we would put marked black ball, and then add some unmarked balls so that there is total 8 white and 8 black balls. Then we close box, take away 5 balls at random and they all happen to be unmarked balls. What is the probability that random marked ball is white now? Well, it is not 50%. It is actually the same as for random ball, not necessarily marked. That is difference between apriori and aposteriori probabilities

We do not deal with completely random events here so this should be taken with the grain of salt. It just my pet peeve when people talking about probabilities without actually contemplating what math would say

Thanks for the convenient way of thinking of it.  But this doesn't contradict what I said, right?  I said that the chance that an arbitrary one of is is town is (likely) less than 1/2. So if someone is (currently) 50/50, that actually suggests that you should be more inclined to think them town, not scum, if you're basing on probabilities (which you shouldn't).  Axxle and SP shouldn't be thought of as 50/50 given the new information, because they have a greater than 50/50 chance to be scum (according to the thought experiment, the same as any of us). 

My intuition did tell me that if, previously, the 50/50 people were more likely to be scum than an arbitrary one of us, then after the new information that we had, they would still be more likely than an arbitrary one of us.  Though my intuition on probability is always wrong.  But that's still not important to the point I was making.

The point I was making was that BA's reason for suspecting Axxle was very weak, which is relevant because (a) Someone just previously voted for Axxle, and (b) BA was previously called out for sheeping while providing shaky justification.

[jotheonah]

the case against Axxle is that he has acted more like a mafia governor than a scum governor -- using his power to save himself and not much else.

[Voltaire]

the case against Axxle is that he has acted more like a mafia governor than a scum governor -- using his power to save himself and not much else.

I assume you mean town, but I agree.

C'mon, everyone who was willing to put IG at L-1 - let's do that to BA! Or Axxle! Or WW! (in that order I think)

[Beyond Awesome]

the case against Axxle is that he has acted more like a mafia governor than a scum governor -- using his power to save himself and not much else.

He was put in a tough spot though. I can't really say I blame him.

[Voltaire]

the case against Axxle is that he has acted more like a mafia governor than a scum governor -- using his power to save himself and not much else.

He was put in a tough spot though. I can't really say I blame him.

No, it's about what he's (not) done today. If he's town, he saved his own mislynch D1. Cool. What is he making of that life since?

[Voltaire]

Which isn't to say, "Nothing! Let's lynch him!" it's to say, "Gee, seems more like the kind of fading into the background scum would rather do."

[Witherweaver]

the case against Axxle is that he has acted more like a mafia governor than a scum governor -- using his power to save himself and not much else.

I assume you mean town, but I agree.

C'mon, everyone who was willing to put IG at L-1 - let's do that to BA! Or Axxle! Or WW! (in that order I think)

Yes!  Maybe!  No!

Vote: BA

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: BA

[Voltaire]

L-2! Good work everyone, but don't stop now.

[EgorK]

Guys, this is not a probability game, it's a social one.

Exactly. But if people use probabilities they better use them correctly

Town is now "unmarked white balls"? That's just wrong...

So let's imagine experiment: ...

Thanks for the convenient way of thinking of it.  But this doesn't contradict what I said, right?  I said that the chance that an arbitrary one of is is town is (likely) less than 1/2. So if someone is (currently) 50/50, that actually suggests that you should be more inclined to think them town, not scum, if you're basing on probabilities (which you shouldn't).  Axxle and SP shouldn't be thought of as 50/50 given the new information, because they have a greater than 50/50 chance to be scum (according to the thought experiment, the same as any of us). 

My intuition did tell me that if, previously, the 50/50 people were more likely to be scum than an arbitrary one of us, then after the new information that we had, they would still be more likely than an arbitrary one of us.  Though my intuition on probability is always wrong.  But that's still not important to the point I was making.

The point I was making was that BA's reason for suspecting Axxle was very weak, which is relevant because (a) Someone just previously voted for Axxle, and (b) BA was previously called out for sheeping while providing shaky justification.

But some event that was 50% on D1 is not 50% now. That's what I was saying

Back to continuing my reread

[Beyond Awesome]

Alright guys, I am town and have the ability to kill myself and become like joth if I claim my role. My card is Embargo.

[Beyond Awesome]

In other words, I would be dead, but can't vote.

[Beyond Awesome]

I mean, I meant to say that I can still post but can't vote.

[Witherweaver]

Guys, this is not a probability game, it's a social one.

Exactly. But if people use probabilities they better use them correctly

Town is now "unmarked white balls"? That's just wrong...

So let's imagine experiment: ...

Thanks for the convenient way of thinking of it.  But this doesn't contradict what I said, right?  I said that the chance that an arbitrary one of is is town is (likely) less than 1/2. So if someone is (currently) 50/50, that actually suggests that you should be more inclined to think them town, not scum, if you're basing on probabilities (which you shouldn't).  Axxle and SP shouldn't be thought of as 50/50 given the new information, because they have a greater than 50/50 chance to be scum (according to the thought experiment, the same as any of us). 

My intuition did tell me that if, previously, the 50/50 people were more likely to be scum than an arbitrary one of us, then after the new information that we had, they would still be more likely than an arbitrary one of us.  Though my intuition on probability is always wrong.  But that's still not important to the point I was making.

The point I was making was that BA's reason for suspecting Axxle was very weak, which is relevant because (a) Someone just previously voted for Axxle, and (b) BA was previously called out for sheeping while providing shaky justification.

But some event that was 50% on D1 is not 50% now. That's what I was saying

Back to continuing my reread

That's exactly what I was saying

[Witherweaver]

Alright guys, I am town and have the ability to kill myself and become like joth if I claim my role. My card is Embargo.

I'm inclined to believe this.  It's verifiable and there is only one.. doesn't seem like a likely fake claim.

Unvote

[A Drowned Kernel]

Alright guys, I am town and have the ability to kill myself and become like joth if I claim my role. My card is Embargo.

I'm inclined to believe this.  It's verifiable and there is only one.. doesn't seem like a likely fake claim.

Unvote

Really? Seems like a plausible fake claim to me. The only way to verify it is for him to use the power, which we obviously aren't going to ask him to do. There's only one of most roles anyway, and scum is more likely to pick something that there's only one of, since picking something with multiple copies will be seen as scummy.

[Beyond Awesome]

Alright guys, I am town and have the ability to kill myself and become like joth if I claim my role. My card is Embargo.

I'm inclined to believe this.  It's verifiable and there is only one.. doesn't seem like a likely fake claim.

Unvote

Really? Seems like a plausible fake claim to me. The only way to verify it is for him to use the power, which we obviously aren't going to ask him to do. There's only one of most roles anyway, and scum is more likely to pick something that there's only one of, since picking something with multiple copies will be seen as scummy.

I mean, if people really want to doubt me, I would be willing to use my power. Personally, I would rather not die, but at least, I can still participate in the game and give reads even if I don't get a vote.

[Witherweaver]

Alright guys, I am town and have the ability to kill myself and become like joth if I claim my role. My card is Embargo.

I'm inclined to believe this.  It's verifiable and there is only one.. doesn't seem like a likely fake claim.

Unvote

Really? Seems like a plausible fake claim to me. The only way to verify it is for him to use the power, which we obviously aren't going to ask him to do. There's only one of most roles anyway, and scum is more likely to pick something that there's only one of, since picking something with multiple copies will be seen as scummy.

I'm also considering that it's his first game. I understand what you're saying, but I have some trouble disbelieving it here. 

Also, do you think he had this prepared? Possibly, but he didn't know a lot of the roles, has to look up all possible ones on the list then look up each on Mafiascum and check it's plausible, card not discarded, etc.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I mean, he did say earlier this day that he had just spent time looking up roles. I don't think it's safe to assume that he's uninformed.

And BA, if that is your power, you shouldn't use it right now. Another town player losing their vote is the last thing we need.

[Beyond Awesome]

I mean, he did say earlier this day that he had just spent time looking up roles. I don't think it's safe to assume that he's uninformed.

And BA, if that is your power, you shouldn't use it right now. Another town player losing their vote is the last thing we need.

I agree. My thought process though if that if I were to use my power at least other town would know that I would be giving unbiased reads. But, right now, town is really hurting, so every vote does count.

I do admit that I made some mistakes that have made me look scummy. I am still figuring out the ropes. For instance, when I responded to joth and voted for Ichi, I was agreeing with joth because for one, I know for 100% he is town and I felt his reasons were good, so I offered my reasoning, but in retrospect, I can see how that could have made me look like scum.

Also, some of my comments have come from me earlier not realizing how people's roles worked and whatnot. So, I may have said things that may look stupid like saying it was almost guaranteed Volt was Town.

[Witherweaver]

So, BA, you said first round you discarded King's Court because you thought it would enhance the role form the card that you kept.

Why did you discard Altar this round?

And while I'm asking, to Ichi, why did you discard Moat?

[Beyond Awesome]

So, BA, you said first round you discarded King's Court because you thought it would enhance the role form the card that you kept.

Why did you discard Altar this round?

And while I'm asking, to Ichi, why did you discard Moat?

I thought that the roles were sort of a reverse psychology thing. So, I figured that by discarding King's Court, I would end up with a more powerful card. The reason I discarded Altar is for the same reason, out of the two cards, I felt it was more powerful so by discarding it, I felt I would get a more powerful role. Honestly, though, I had no idea what I was doing with the card choices. This was my first game, so I did not know what to expect.

Also, I do have a question, since KC is a one-shot Kingmaker, what does that mean exactly?

[Witherweaver]

So, BA, you said first round you discarded King's Court because you thought it would enhance the role form the card that you kept.

Why did you discard Altar this round?

And while I'm asking, to Ichi, why did you discard Moat?

I thought that the roles were sort of a reverse psychology thing. So, I figured that by discarding King's Court, I would end up with a more powerful card. The reason I discarded Altar is for the same reason, out of the two cards, I felt it was more powerful so by discarding it, I felt I would get a more powerful role. Honestly, though, I had no idea what I was doing with the card choices. This was my first game, so I did not know what to expect.

Also, I do have a question, since KC is a one-shot Kingmaker, what does that mean exactly?

I guess it's something like this: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Kingmaker_(game)

[Ichimaru Gin]

And while I'm asking, to Ichi, why did you discard Moat?

Well, even though mail-mi said that the relative power of a role wouldn't be related to its power as a card. Since I didn't have much of an idea of what they would do, I picked chapel because I like that card better--and it's a more powerful card in dominion at least.

Keeping moat would have made me a retired werewolf hunter it looks like?
Is that werewolf faction, or like someone who hunts werewolves?

[Witherweaver]

And while I'm asking, to Ichi, why did you discard Moat?

Well, even though mail-mi said that the relative power of a role wouldn't be related to its power as a card. Since I didn't have much of an idea of what they would do, I picked chapel because I like that card better--and it's a more powerful card in dominion at least.

Keeping moat would have made me a retired werewolf hunter it looks like?
Is that werewolf faction, or like someone who hunts werewolves?

Hoo-ra!  http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Greater_Idea_Mafia/RolePMs

[jotheonah]

boy this game is frustrating. for me. at this moment. because I am a stump.

[Witherweaver]

You said earlier you wanted to talk about Axxle and Voltaire, but then the BA thing took off.  What did you want to say about them?

[jotheonah]

I don't know what to make of either of them. More and more I like the Axxle lynch over the Voltaire lynch.

Here is one thing. Axxle is half-cleared. We had two cops. We might have a seer. If we have a seer, then we can get him more cleared. I mean, he could be an alien or a SK.

Are cops in this game just useless? geez.

[jotheonah]

in fact, we know we have at least one alien.

[Witherweaver]

in fact, we know we have at least one alien.

I think we have more than one.  The logic is a little shaky, but.. Alien's need to kill someone else and have one person alive.  That seems really hard if there is only one, and they only get one total night kill.  Though they can treestump every night, I guess?  I had originally thought it was one-shot as well.  Still, tree-stumping is weaker than killing, and the Alien needs to be alive, while a faction like SK doesn't, so a single Alien treestumper would be like a very disadvantaged SK.

There's no guarantee of balance, yeah, but I'm not sure one faction would be so disadvantaged? 

[Voltaire]

I am inclined to believe BA's claim (new, unlikely, etc.). We also now have a ton of claims, which is...I dunno, I hesitate to say "not as bad as normal," but it's not like these PRs are doing much other than creating likely town, which is best-case scenario...so, huzzah?

Anyway, I really like a vote: axxle here, both because I think he's scum and because he already claimed. Two birds, one stone.

[Witherweaver]

I don't know what to make of either of them. More and more I like the Axxle lynch over the Voltaire lynch.

Here is one thing. Axxle is half-cleared. We had two cops. We might have a seer. If we have a seer, then we can get him more cleared. I mean, he could be an alien or a SK.

Are cops in this game just useless? geez.

Axxle can't be SK or Alien.  Axxle can only be Town or Mafia.  There are only two Governor abilities.  And Seer only checks Werewolf? 

If we had a Seer for SP, we could figure him out, since he's either Town or Werewolf.  Unless that Alien investigationmessuperizor is in the game.

[Voltaire]

But that Alienscrewsupcops role only effects cops who get "Guilty/Not Guilty". That doesn't sound like it would affect someone who returns "Mafia/Not Mafia" or something like that, right? So what cops theoretically would get "Guilty/Not Guilty"?

[Witherweaver]

But that Alienscrewsupcops role only effects cops who get "Guilty/Not Guilty". That doesn't sound like it would affect someone who returns "Mafia/Not Mafia" or something like that, right? So what cops theoretically would get "Guilty/Not Guilty"?

I read "Guilty/Not Guilty" as "X/Not X, where X \in {Mafia, Alien, Werewolf, SK}" or something like that.

[Voltaire]

But that Alienscrewsupcops role only effects cops who get "Guilty/Not Guilty". That doesn't sound like it would affect someone who returns "Mafia/Not Mafia" or something like that, right? So what cops theoretically would get "Guilty/Not Guilty"?

I read "Guilty/Not Guilty" as "X/Not X, where X \in {Mafia, Alien, Werewolf, SK}" or something like that.

That makes sense as long as there isn't actually a cop who gets "Guilty/Not Guilty" (which would sound like checking for killing ability, ie catching town Vigs as well or something)

[Witherweaver]

But that Alienscrewsupcops role only effects cops who get "Guilty/Not Guilty". That doesn't sound like it would affect someone who returns "Mafia/Not Mafia" or something like that, right? So what cops theoretically would get "Guilty/Not Guilty"?

I read "Guilty/Not Guilty" as "X/Not X, where X \in {Mafia, Alien, Werewolf, SK}" or something like that.

That makes sense as long as there isn't actually a cop who gets "Guilty/Not Guilty" (which would sound like checking for killing ability, ie catching town Vigs as well or something)

Check the PMs for cop, etc:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Greater_Idea_Mafia/RolePMs

[Voltaire]

ohmygodhowdidineverseethatpage

[Voltaire]

So yeah, if this person is alive they affect all cops.

Just a refresher because I saw someone say something incorrect about this earlier, "insane" means opposite results, not "guilty" on everyone. That's "paranoid".

And this means that said Alien role does not exist because joth got "Not Mafia" on me, though I know from anyone else's point of view you can't know that.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Vote Count 2.7

Ichimaru Gin (1): Archetype
EgorK (1): Nik
Axxle (2): Ichimaru Gin, Voltaire
Beyond Awesome (2): XerxesPraelor, A Drowned Kernal
XerxesPraelor (1): Axxle
Witherweaver (1): Beyond Awesome

Not Voting (3): EgorK, scott_pilgrim, Witherweaver

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on Monday June 2 at 9:30 PM FT. Please note: mail-mi will be going to Spain around the 4th or 5th. AndrewisFTTW will be the official mod from then until about June 15th or 16th.

[Beyond Awesome]

I'm not sold on the Axxle argument. I still think if there were Mountebank and Nobles he would have kept Nobles. However, I can see him keeping Governor.

So, why do you guys think Axxle is likely mafia governor?

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm inclined to go off of my actual read on him rather than analyzing his card choice, since there isn't really a way to know what assumptions anyone made while making their card choices. He's been very lurky since his governor business, and it seems a lot like he's hanging back and hoping that the wagon on him simply won't start up again due to inertia.

I also think we need to stop getting people to L-1 and backing off when they claim. Scum is perfectly capable of lying for claims, and the more PRs we out the more power scum has.

[Voltaire]

I also think we need to stop getting people to L-1 and backing off when they claim. Scum is perfectly capable of lying for claims, and the more PRs we out the more power scum has.

This is why I'm extra-happy to lynch axxle.

[Beyond Awesome]

I'm inclined to go off of my actual read on him rather than analyzing his card choice, since there isn't really a way to know what assumptions anyone made while making their card choices. He's been very lurky since his governor business, and it seems a lot like he's hanging back and hoping that the wagon on him simply won't start up again due to inertia.

I also think we need to stop getting people to L-1 and backing off when they claim. Scum is perfectly capable of lying for claims, and the more PRs we out the more power scum has.

You do have a point there. Axxle did seem more active on D1 and a lot less active D2. That does look a bit suspicious.

[Witherweaver]

I'm not sold on the Axxle argument. I still think if there were Mountebank and Nobles he would have kept Nobles. However, I can see him keeping Governor.

So, why do you guys think Axxle is likely mafia governor?

So Nobles corresponds with Mafia Governor and Governor corresponds with Town Governor.  What are you saying here?

[Beyond Awesome]

I'm not sold on the Axxle argument. I still think if there were Mountebank and Nobles he would have kept Nobles. However, I can see him keeping Governor.

So, why do you guys think Axxle is likely mafia governor?

So Nobles corresponds with Mafia Governor and Governor corresponds with Town Governor.  What are you saying here?

I was saying that it seemed more likely that if Axxle was more aware of how the setup worked that he would likely keep Governor but not keep Nobles if he had the choice, especially since MB was the card he discarded. Although, his thinking could have very well been along my line of thinking that by discarding the more powerful card you will get the more powerful role.

[jotheonah]

I don't know what to make of either of them. More and more I like the Axxle lynch over the Voltaire lynch.

Here is one thing. Axxle is half-cleared. We had two cops. We might have a seer. If we have a seer, then we can get him more cleared. I mean, he could be an alien or a SK.

Are cops in this game just useless? geez.

Axxle can't be SK or Alien.  Axxle can only be Town or Mafia.  There are only two Governor abilities.  And Seer only checks Werewolf? 

If we had a Seer for SP, we could figure him out, since he's either Town or Werewolf.  Unless that Alien investigationmessuperizor is in the game.

I meant to say Voltaire is half-cleared

[Axxle]

this game just isn't high priority for me. and you've all seen my scumgame, this isn't it.

[Ichimaru Gin]

this game just isn't high priority for me. and you've all seen my scumgame, this isn't it.

Hmm. Sounds a little bit like what Robz said.

[scott_pilgrim]

I also think we need to stop getting people to L-1 and backing off when they claim. Scum is perfectly capable of lying for claims, and the more PRs we out the more power scum has.

This is why I'm extra-happy to lynch axxle.

I also think this is a really nice benefit of lynching Axxle.  I don't even remember anything from him D2, though I think that seems odd from him regardless of alignment.  I guess he's the only one alive right now that seems out of meta to me.

There's also IG who claimed lover with no partners, I think he's pretty obviously not lying about that since that would just be a very bizarre fake claim from scum, but he could still be a scum lover so it doesn't clear him at all.  I think he's a good option to lynch but I prefer Axxle.

I think BA's claim makes him townier, because 1. it is verifiable (although to verify it we basically have to put him into a situation where we say stump yourself or we lynch you, which we wouldn't want to do unless he was our preferred lynch option anyway), 2. I think scum would prefer a non-unique fakeclaim, and 3. a newbie claim somehow seems more believable to me, I think because it just seems like he would have claimed something safer (maybe I'm just reiterating 1 and 2 now...)

I'm about halfway through my re-read, will be traveling tomorrow so I won't have time to finish at least until Sunday.

vote: Axxle

PPE: 2

[scott_pilgrim]

this game just isn't high priority for me. and you've all seen my scumgame, this isn't it.

Hmm. Sounds a little bit like what Robz said.

Yeah, but that's easy enough to say as either alignment...

[Axxle]

this game just isn't high priority for me. and you've all seen my scumgame, this isn't it.

Hmm. Sounds a little bit like what Robz said.

Yeah, but that's easy enough to say as either alignment...

I can say it as either alignment, but it's only true in one.

[Witherweaver]

this game just isn't high priority for me. and you've all seen my scumgame, this isn't it.

Hmm. Sounds a little bit like what Robz said.

Yeah, but that's easy enough to say as either alignment...

I can say it as either alignment, but it's only true in one.

Which one?

[scott_pilgrim]

this game just isn't high priority for me. and you've all seen my scumgame, this isn't it.

Hmm. Sounds a little bit like what Robz said.

Yeah, but that's easy enough to say as either alignment...

I can say it as either alignment, but it's only true in one.

I guess to me, not caring about a game shouldn't be indicative of alignment.  If it were, then you could easily just pretend not to care about a game in which you are scum, and use that to get away with not posting, which could be what you're doing here which I guess is just WIFOM.  But really, I don't think you're really that much more likely to care about a game as scum than as town that it should have a significant impact on whether people decide to lynch you.

[Axxle]

this game just isn't high priority for me. and you've all seen my scumgame, this isn't it.

Hmm. Sounds a little bit like what Robz said.

Yeah, but that's easy enough to say as either alignment...

I can say it as either alignment, but it's only true in one.

I guess to me, not caring about a game shouldn't be indicative of alignment.  If it were, then you could easily just pretend not to care about a game in which you are scum, and use that to get away with not posting, which could be what you're doing here which I guess is just WIFOM.  But really, I don't think you're really that much more likely to care about a game as scum than as town that it should have a significant impact on whether people decide to lynch you.

Oh, I wasn't talking about not caring about it. I meant my play in general.

[Axxle]

Can we lynch XP first? His random vote today was pretty bad.

[Beyond Awesome]

One thing to note is that in D1 everyone was discussing how Axxle likes to play scum. Maybe Axxle is not invested in this game because, well, he isn't scum. I don't know. Anyway, I'm still not convinced with an Axxle lynch. I also didn't feel good with an Robz lynch for what it's worth.

[Axxle]

One thing to note is that in D1 everyone was discussing how Axxle likes to play scum. Maybe Axxle is not invested in this game because, well, he isn't scum. I don't know. Anyway, I'm still not convinced with an Axxle lynch. I also didn't feel good with an Robz lynch for what it's worth.

And like a billion townies died. That means there are a lot of scumteams. That means that scumtells are really really hard to find since everyones scumhunting and everyones trying to not die and everyones blah blah blah.

[Beyond Awesome]

One thing to note is that in D1 everyone was discussing how Axxle likes to play scum. Maybe Axxle is not invested in this game because, well, he isn't scum. I don't know. Anyway, I'm still not convinced with an Axxle lynch. I also didn't feel good with an Robz lynch for what it's worth.

And like a billion townies died. That means there are a lot of scumteams. That means that scumtells are really really hard to find since everyones scumhunting and everyones trying to not die and everyones blah blah blah.

How would you know if there are scum teams are not? I figure in this setup it is very possible that there are only one-ofs of different factions.

[Axxle]

One thing to note is that in D1 everyone was discussing how Axxle likes to play scum. Maybe Axxle is not invested in this game because, well, he isn't scum. I don't know. Anyway, I'm still not convinced with an Axxle lynch. I also didn't feel good with an Robz lynch for what it's worth.

And like a billion townies died. That means there are a lot of scumteams. That means that scumtells are really really hard to find since everyones scumhunting and everyones trying to not die and everyones blah blah blah.

How would you know if there are scum teams are not? I figure in this setup it is very possible that there are only one-ofs of different factions.

what is the point of this question?

[Beyond Awesome]

One thing to note is that in D1 everyone was discussing how Axxle likes to play scum. Maybe Axxle is not invested in this game because, well, he isn't scum. I don't know. Anyway, I'm still not convinced with an Axxle lynch. I also didn't feel good with an Robz lynch for what it's worth.

And like a billion townies died. That means there are a lot of scumteams. That means that scumtells are really really hard to find since everyones scumhunting and everyones trying to not die and everyones blah blah blah.

How would you know if there are scum teams are not? I figure in this setup it is very possible that there are only one-ofs of different factions.

what is the point of this question?

Well, you are saying there are scum teams. I mean, it could just be conjecture on your part, or you could know something that we don't know because you are on a team yourself.

[Beyond Awesome]

On another note, where has Nik been? On Day 1, he had a sizable lynch going against him. I don't think we have heard much from him on D2.

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, I am going to give my current reads.

I think Ichi is very, very likely town for reasons that SP has already stated. I was suspicious of XP earlier, but I am starting to warm up to the idea of him also being town. I think his behavior is more town-like. I'm not sure about SP, but I don't want to lynch him today anyway. Axxle is becoming slightly suspicious to me, but I also don't want to lynch him today. Maybe D3.

Where has Nik gone? He had a sizable D1 lynch. He hasn't chimed in much. I know Archetype hasn't had a chance to read over everything yet. I think he could very well be scum, but I think we should give him a chance to chime in more. ADK has seemed a bit scummy to me. I don't know why. Just a vibe. Although, at times, he also seemed a bit townie, but I guess if you're scum that's the point. I would be okay with lynching him. I know EgorK said he is busy. So, it is hard to get a read on him. WW, I don't know what to think of him. One second, I think he is town, another scum.

Anyway, Nik and ADK would be my top two to lynch with WW in third.

[Beyond Awesome]

Oh, and I forgot Volt. I am not sure what to think of him.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I think BA's claim makes him townier, because 1. it is verifiable (although to verify it we basically have to put him into a situation where we say stump yourself or we lynch you, which we wouldn't want to do unless he was our preferred lynch option anyway), 2. I think scum would prefer a non-unique fakeclaim, and 3. a newbie claim somehow seems more believable to me, I think because it just seems like he would have claimed something safer (maybe I'm just reiterating 1 and 2 now...)

1. If Nik's claim is verifiable without removing him from the game, it's not verifiable.
2. There's 139 roles. Scum's likely to take a chance since a non-unique on is going to look scummy.
3. It seems like a safe claim to me, precisely because it's unverifiable.

[Axxle]

One thing to note is that in D1 everyone was discussing how Axxle likes to play scum. Maybe Axxle is not invested in this game because, well, he isn't scum. I don't know. Anyway, I'm still not convinced with an Axxle lynch. I also didn't feel good with an Robz lynch for what it's worth.

And like a billion townies died. That means there are a lot of scumteams. That means that scumtells are really really hard to find since everyones scumhunting and everyones trying to not die and everyones blah blah blah.

How would you know if there are scum teams are not? I figure in this setup it is very possible that there are only one-ofs of different factions.

what is the point of this question?

Well, you are saying there are scum teams. I mean, it could just be conjecture on your part, or you could know something that we don't know because you are on a team yourself.

What do you think is more likely. I would bother typing out "multiple scum persons who may or may not be on the same team because I don't know because I'm town of course and no town can every shorten their thoughts into a concise sentence or make any mental shortcuts of any kind" or...

[Axxle]

I think BA's claim makes him townier, because 1. it is verifiable (although to verify it we basically have to put him into a situation where we say stump yourself or we lynch you, which we wouldn't want to do unless he was our preferred lynch option anyway), 2. I think scum would prefer a non-unique fakeclaim, and 3. a newbie claim somehow seems more believable to me, I think because it just seems like he would have claimed something safer (maybe I'm just reiterating 1 and 2 now...)

1. If Nik's claim is verifiable without removing him from the game, it's not verifiable.
2. There's 139 roles. Scum's likely to take a chance since a non-unique on is going to look scummy.
3. It seems like a safe claim to me, precisely because it's unverifiable.

You mean BA (just in case anyone else is confused)

[scott_pilgrim]

I think Ichi is very, very likely town for reasons that SP has already stated.

I don't think IG is necessarily town, I just think he is definitely a lover (and that there are no other lovers in the game, if there were they would have counterclaimed by now).  I think there is the possibility that IG is a mafia lover or alien lover, so I don't think his claim is indicative of alignment.  I think I actually lean scum on him right now.

Another possibility I just thought of: IG could be scum partners with a lover who knows (and has informed him) that there are no other lovers.  Not sure exactly why that would have been the fakeclaim for him and not his scum partner (who actually is the lover), even less sure why we would care if that were the case.  Just putting that thought out there.

I know Archetype hasn't had a chance to read over everything yet. I think he could very well be scum, but I think we should give him a chance to chime in more.

Yeah, I mean it's frustrating because this is how I feel too, on the one hand it doesn't seem fair to lynch someone who joined the game late and hasn't caught up yet, but OTOH the deadline is coming up and it doesn't seem right to just give him a pass.  If we wanted to start a wagon on him we would have to do it soon, like, probably before he has finished catching up.

I have been thinking more about Axxle and I hate being wrong, but yeah, this isn't how he plays as scum.  I guess he felt different to me and I want to associate different with scum, but considering that I mostly associate Axxle with scum (he was scum in Adventure Time and Philosophers which is like, 90% of what I can remember of playing mafia with him), if anything different should mean town.

Does anyone else feel like ADK has this magical power of never getting any attention?  I feel like he says stuff that's non-controversial, but not non-controversial enough that people point out that he only says non-controversial stuff, and then disappears, and no one ever talks about him; obviously this is what scum wants.  He might be a good lynch candidate today, planning to focus on him when I finish my re-read Sunday.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I think Ichi is very, very likely town for reasons that SP has already stated.

I don't think IG is necessarily town, I just think he is definitely a lover (and that there are no other lovers in the game, if there were they would have counterclaimed by now).  I think there is the possibility that IG is a mafia lover or alien lover, so I don't think his claim is indicative of alignment.  I think I actually lean scum on him right now.

Another possibility I just thought of: IG could be scum partners with a lover who knows (and has informed him) that there are no other lovers.  Not sure exactly why that would have been the fakeclaim for him and not his scum partner (who actually is the lover), even less sure why we would care if that were the case.  Just putting that thought out there.

Though why would I need another lover to inform me that there weren't any others? Because all lovers would share the same pool or qt or whatever.
It's an interesting conjecture, but at the same time, it's a way of mildly painting me as scum--albeit in a bizarre way. I agree that BA thinks people are "surely" town perhaps a little quickly, but I think that's how a lot of new players are.
For the most part, I have a town read on you. I thought the D1 case on you was pretty weak. Although your surviving the night is slightly suspicious. It's weird though because it seems like scum wants to hit scum, yet with all of those nightkills they only ended up hitting town. I've never been in a game with multiple factions before, but it seems like it might be even easier for scum to hide, because they are actually legitimately searching for scum (just not members of their own faction). So they'll be doing things that look more townie just in the process of hunting out their rival scumteams.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ah. And I missed the part where BA was referencing your reads on me, so what you said makes more sense now.

[Voltaire]

I think we're being killed by lurkers here. They have their votes on non-viable candidates (not a sin if they post a lot to try to make them viable, but they're not). Nik, Archetype, others: weigh in here.

[Archetype]

It's the weekend, so I have some more time to spend here. I'm on about Day 2 for my reread.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Post Count 2.0
Pre-game posts not included

Witherweaver: 139

Ichimaru Gin: 130

Voltaire: 94

Axxle: 83

Beyond Awesome: 46

A Drowned Kernel: 44

XerxesPraelor: 44

Scott_Pilgrim: 27

Nik: 22

EgorK: 16

Archetype (+chairs): 14

[XerxesPraelor]

Okay, I guess a random vote isn't a good idea. I agree about ADK, so vote: ADK

[XerxesPraelor]

I still think BA is scummy, but the claim seems unlikely to be fake, and it's an only-town role, right?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Okay, I guess a random vote isn't a good idea. I agree about ADK, so vote: ADK

Is the case on me just that I haven't had anyone suspicious of me yet? That's seems like a pretty weak argument when there are such heavy lurkers and scummy behavior from people like Ichi.

I also don't know why people are treating these weak-ass claims like they're "get-out-of-lynch-free" cards. BA's is totally unverifiable, Ichi's, Axxle, and S_P's are all available for scum, and if part of the point of claiming is to avoid lynching a powerful town role, besides S_P then we've essentially got three named VTs. Scum is going to lie when asked to claim, and all the claims we've had look to me like the things scum would come up with.

[Voltaire]

Okay, I guess a random vote isn't a good idea. I agree about ADK, so vote: ADK

Is the case on me just that I haven't had anyone suspicious of me yet? That's seems like a pretty weak argument when there are such heavy lurkers and scummy behavior from people like Ichi.

This has always been a scummy statement in my eyes.

I'm looking at that post count and thinking, man, why did I abandon my old system? Because who did we want to lynch but all the active posters?

I hesitate to wagon ADK, because he'd be another claim and I still feel good about axxle. Not as good, but good.

[Ichimaru Gin]

If we hadn't already had so many claims, ADK would be near the top of my lynch choices today. The almost total lack of suspicion and pressure that he has enjoyed--in addition to his passing under everyone's radar is pretty scummy. The way he defended himself by attempting to pass off suspicion on lurkers and generically-scummy-people is quite suspect.

Rereading some, he pushed ww pretty hard early on for his "joke" vote on Robz. Hmm, and then he does a 180 on Axxle with only about 2 sentences of explanation.

Generally what I see him doing in this game is asking a lot of questions but not really committing or making cases against other people. I think asking questions is a generally safe behavior that makes it seem like you're participating--while also making it hard for people to find you scummy. It's assumed that scum knows more about the setup anyway, so asking questions can also be a way to avert suspicion or at least avoid the "do you know something that we don't?" comments.

[Voltaire]

Lynch ADK anyway? Lynch through whatever claim he makes? Lynch axxle instead?

Remind me who you want to lynch other than ADK, IG.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Lynch ADK anyway? Lynch through whatever claim he makes? Lynch axxle instead?

Remind me who you want to lynch other than ADK, IG.

I would be ok lynching Axxle, Nik (Yes I know), ww, and probably EgorK.
The death of all those town PR's and the number of claims we have means that it'd be best to lynch someone whose already claimed (as you pointed out). So that'd probably be Axxle; I'm not sure about S_P. In making the post count, I was surprised at how many posts Axxle had.

[Voltaire]

axxle, what would you think about lynching s_p?

[Witherweaver]

If we hadn't already had so many claims, ADK would be near the top of my lynch choices today. The almost total lack of suspicion and pressure that he has enjoyed--in addition to his passing under everyone's radar is pretty scummy. The way he defended himself by attempting to pass off suspicion on lurkers and generically-scummy-people is quite suspect.

Rereading some, he pushed ww pretty hard early on for his "joke" vote on Robz. Hmm, and then he does a 180 on Axxle with only about 2 sentences of explanation.

Generally what I see him doing in this game is asking a lot of questions but not really committing or making cases against other people. I think asking questions is a generally safe behavior that makes it seem like you're participating--while also making it hard for people to find you scummy. It's assumed that scum knows more about the setup anyway, so asking questions can also be a way to avert suspicion or at least avoid the "do you know something that we don't?" comments.

I think these are all good points, actually.  I've been thinking along these lines as well.  I think a lot of ADK's posts have been giving bits of helpful information about setup and roles and such, and not actually saying anything controversial or that would put attention on him.

I personally think BA's is the most believable of all the claims.  Axxle I can go either way with.  SP too.  My lynch preference of those that have claimed would be:

Ichi, Axxle, SP, BA.

It's also worth noting that Ichi, Axxle, and BA are essentially Vanilla in terms of role.  I mean BA (if he's telling the truth) can stump himself and still talk, but that's it.  Axxle's power is gone (which also could explain why he's disinterested, regardless of alignment), and Ichi's does nothing since there are no other Lovers.  (I'm assuming all "Lover" parties are informed, so if he had a Lover, said Lover would have spoken up.)

SP is the only of those that has an ability that could be useful.

I'm also a little unsure why Nik is completely off the table because Volt says so.  Nik has been nothing to indicate his towniness except do things that don't make sense, and that point is only convincing to Volt.   I'm still far from convinced of Volt's towniness here, but I've lost my gusto for it.  And besides, Volt is an active and good player, so it's not worth taking the risk right now.

EgorK is completely null.. Archetype is completely null.  It would be nice if they both posted like they've been promising too. 

Xerxes is usual confusing Xerxes.  I had a strong town read Day 1.  I don't know what to make of him Day 2.

[Voltaire]

And I've lost all of my scum!WW read, because posts like that are thoughtful and helpful and pro-town. So that's fine. There are too many plausible lynches today anyway.

Lynch a claim, lynch Axxle.
Lynch an unclaimed, lynch ADK.

There, I've decided. Let's do it.

Note that I'm still voting Axxle.

[Axxle]

axxle, what would you think about lynching s_p?

I'd rather get lynched. Even if sp is mafia he can find the other factions

[Witherweaver]

And I've lost all of my scum!WW read, because posts like that are thoughtful and helpful and pro-town. So that's fine. There are too many plausible lynches today anyway.

Lynch a claim, lynch Axxle.
Lynch an unclaimed, lynch ADK.

There, I've decided. Let's do it.

Note that I'm still voting Axxle.

Vote: ADK

[Archetype]

Alright, some reads. Rereading D1 is sort of a blur because there are just so, so many people so most of these reads pertain to mostly D2.

Town -> Scum:
Voltaire: He's not-Mafia, so 1/4 not scum as everyone else. He's very active and I think its likely that scum would fall into the background in a game like this.
XerxesPraelor: Pretty classic XerxesPraelor. It's a weird sort of scummy, but I've learned that's just how Town!Xerxes plays.

Witherweaver: I'm getting a towny vibe here. He sort of defended me when Ichimaru got all flustered, which is sort of scummy.
A Drowned Kernel: Same sort of thing as WW. Just a plain Towny vibe...but the dude needs to post more!

Axxle: Him are scott are kind of weird since they're 50/50 scum. I'm leaning Town here, but I find Axxle generally hard to read.
scott_pilgrim: Not much of anything from him. Not getting a terribly scummy vibe from his posts, but if we were lynching one of Axxle/scott_pilgrim, scott would be my pick
Ichimaru Gin: Got really flustered about my vote on him, and then later said it was no big deal...reads sort of like he's scum trying to play it cool with the Town. There was something else from D1, but I forgot.

EgorK: Him, Nik, and BA are all grouped together because of their lurking. Nothing really here, so nothing that scummy. Null, tbh, but has a good chance at flipping scum.
Nik: That "Vote: Archetype for WIFOMing" has still been unexplained. Most of his posts seem to be just votes. If he were scum, I don't think he'd be on a team. Likely a solo Alien or SK.
Beyond Awesome: I could see this guy being on a scum team. Reminds me of how yuma/Robz coached Ichi in...DW (?). His claim is sort of suspicious with the stumped jotheonah.


I'll vote: BA
. I really don't want to run up someone else to L-1, unvote when they claim, and no lynch. I totally agree with what ADK says:
 

I also don't know why people are treating these weak-ass claims like they're "get-out-of-lynch-free" cards. BA's is totally unverifiable, Ichi's, Axxle, and S_P's are all available for scum, and if part of the point of claiming is to avoid lynching a powerful town role, besides S_P then we've essentially got three named VTs. Scum is going to lie when asked to claim, and all the claims we've had look to me like the things scum would come up with.

[Beyond Awesome]

Quick post. My neighborhood electricty is down. Library closes in two minutes. I should be active again tonight or tomorrow when electricty comes back.

[Archetype]

Quick post. My neighborhood electricty is down. Library closes in two minutes. I should be active again tonight or tomorrow when electricty comes back.

Unvote

[Ichimaru Gin]

Quick post. My neighborhood electricty is down. Library closes in two minutes. I should be active again tonight or tomorrow when electricty comes back.

Unvote

So he won't have access for a few hours or so. This is enough to warrant an unvote?

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm also a little unsure why Nik is completely off the table because Volt says so.  Nik has been nothing to indicate his towniness except do things that don't make sense, and that point is only convincing to Volt.   I'm still far from convinced of Volt's towniness here, but I've lost my gusto for it.  And besides, Volt is an active and good player, so it's not worth taking the risk right now

This, except that I don't think that's it's not worth the risk. I would be behind a Nik lynch.

I'm also not sure why people are no longer considering Ichi. The more I think about it, the more a Lover claim seems completely suspicious. If he is a scum lover (or even has a scum lover on his team), then he would know ahead of time that the claim was completely safe. We also know that one of the scum teams where lover is possible (aliens) is in the game.

Vote: Ichimaru

As for the case against me, I'm not sure what I can say against an argument based around how people are reacting to me rather than anything I've actually posted.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'm also a little unsure why Nik is completely off the table because Volt says so.  Nik has been nothing to indicate his towniness except do things that don't make sense, and that point is only convincing to Volt.   I'm still far from convinced of Volt's towniness here, but I've lost my gusto for it.  And besides, Volt is an active and good player, so it's not worth taking the risk right now

This, except that I don't think that's it's not worth the risk. I would be behind a Nik lynch.

I'm also not sure why people are no longer considering Ichi. The more I think about it, the more a Lover claim seems completely suspicious. If he is a scum lover (or even has a scum lover on his team), then he would know ahead of time that the claim was completely safe. We also know that one of the scum teams where lover is possible (aliens) is in the game.

Vote: Ichimaru

As for the case against me, I'm not sure what I can say against an argument based around how people are reacting to me rather than anything I've actually posted.

You are correct that the possibility of a scum lover is dangerous. Your argument is WIFOM though and more out of self-interest than reads I think. There is obviously no way for you to know my alignment 100%. Really you are voting me because you think my claim is "convenient" or whatever. Or basically, (if you are town, which I doubt) you are fearful that I am a scum-lover.

Everyone. Can we please lynch ADK now? He's been trying to paint me scummy for a long time while garnering almost no suspicion. Other people have made claims, but he chooses to vote for me over others for poor reasons.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Also. I'm heading out to see Maleficent and X-men. I'll be back in approx. 6 hours or so.

[A Drowned Kernel]

My point is, I found you scummy before you claimed, and I don't think anyone else who did should let your claim dissuade them.

[Archetype]

Quick post. My neighborhood electricty is down. Library closes in two minutes. I should be active again tonight or tomorrow when electricty comes back.

Unvote

So he won't have access for a few hours or so. This is enough to warrant an unvote?

Yes.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Quick post. My neighborhood electricty is down. Library closes in two minutes. I should be active again tonight or tomorrow when electricty comes back.

Unvote

So he won't have access for a few hours or so. This is enough to warrant an unvote?

Yes.

Phone posting

Could you please elaborate on this? It's not like we're lynching BA right now while he's gone and doesn't have a chance to defend himself. So what about that post made you unvote?

[Ichimaru Gin]

My point is, I found you scummy before you claimed, and I don't think anyone else who did should let your claim dissuade them.

So basically you'd already decided that I was scum, or you were going to tunnel me regardless of my claim or seemingly anything else that I do.

[Voltaire]

vote: ADK

seems more likely than axxle at this point

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: ADK

seems more likely than axxle at this point

Vote: ADK
I've said my peace. Let's see if we can do this.

[Archetype]

Quick post. My neighborhood electricty is down. Library closes in two minutes. I should be active again tonight or tomorrow when electricty comes back.

Unvote

So he won't have access for a few hours or so. This is enough to warrant an unvote?

Yes.

Phone posting

Could you please elaborate on this? It's not like we're lynching BA right now while he's gone and doesn't have a chance to defend himself. So what about that post made you unvote?

I'll revote once he's had a chance to defend himself.

[A Drowned Kernel]

My point is, I found you scummy before you claimed, and I don't think anyone else who did should let your claim dissuade them.

So basically you'd already decided that I was scum, or you were going to tunnel me regardless of my claim or seemingly anything else that I do.

I found you scummy, and I don't think that your particular claim mitigates that read.

vote: ADK

seems more likely than axxle at this point

How so? What exactly have I done that's scummier than what axxle's been doing today, which is pretty much nothing?

[Beyond Awesome]

Quick post. My neighborhood electricty is down. Library closes in two minutes. I should be active again tonight or tomorrow when electricty comes back.

Unvote

So he won't have access for a few hours or so. This is enough to warrant an unvote?

Yes.

Phone posting

Could you please elaborate on this? It's not like we're lynching BA right now while he's gone and doesn't have a chance to defend himself. So what about that post made you unvote?

I'll revote once he's had a chance to defend himself.

I'm back. Power's up again. If you want to vote for me, that's fine. I'm not going to defend myself beyond what I have already in earlier posts.

With that said, I feel ADK's posts sound scummier and scummier.

Vote: ADK

[Beyond Awesome]

That's L-2, I believe.

[Archetype]

Alright,

Vote: BA

[XerxesPraelor]

Okay, I guess a random vote isn't a good idea. I agree about ADK, so vote: ADK

Is the case on me just that I haven't had anyone suspicious of me yet? That's seems like a pretty weak argument when there are such heavy lurkers and scummy behavior from people like Ichi.

I also don't know why people are treating these weak-ass claims like they're "get-out-of-lynch-free" cards. BA's is totally unverifiable, Ichi's, Axxle, and S_P's are all available for scum, and if part of the point of claiming is to avoid lynching a powerful town role, besides S_P then we've essentially got three named VTs. Scum is going to lie when asked to claim, and all the claims we've had look to me like the things scum would come up with.

I think we should ask BA to stump himself tomorrow or the day after if he hasn't died by then. At worst, we'll get an IC who can't vote. I bet people other than me also are fine lynching Axxle through his claim, too, so no, the claims are not get-out-of-jail free cards.

[Voltaire]

How so? What exactly have I done that's scummier than what axxle's been doing today, which is pretty much nothing?

More likelier, as in, I think the odds are higher we can lynch you than axxle

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, I guess a random vote isn't a good idea. I agree about ADK, so vote: ADK

Is the case on me just that I haven't had anyone suspicious of me yet? That's seems like a pretty weak argument when there are such heavy lurkers and scummy behavior from people like Ichi.

I also don't know why people are treating these weak-ass claims like they're "get-out-of-lynch-free" cards. BA's is totally unverifiable, Ichi's, Axxle, and S_P's are all available for scum, and if part of the point of claiming is to avoid lynching a powerful town role, besides S_P then we've essentially got three named VTs. Scum is going to lie when asked to claim, and all the claims we've had look to me like the things scum would come up with.

I think we should ask BA to stump himself tomorrow or the day after if he hasn't died by then. At worst, we'll get an IC who can't vote. I bet people other than me also are fine lynching Axxle through his claim, too, so no, the claims are not get-out-of-jail free cards.

I have nothing against this. I'm ready to stump myself whenever the majority of players feel I should.

[A Drowned Kernel]

That's L-2, I believe.

I think it's L-1, actually.

If I'm really going down, I might as well try to analyze my own wagon. There's a good chance scum will outnumber town tomorrow, but as long as whatever separate scum teams there are focus on eliminating each other we still have a chance. I see Ichi and BA's votes on me as largely self-defensive, Ichi in particular is very OMGUS-y; I was one of his strongest town reads until I started expressing suspicion of him. XP also came out of the woodwork to vote for me, I would be very suspicious of him going forward. I can kind of understand Voltaire voting for me out of convenience, especially so close to the deadline, but I also see him being weirdly protective of players that I don't find towny at all (Ichi, Nik). Maybe we just disagree but I obviously can't be sure.

Lurkers be lurking here, and although my post count isn't the highest I've been here the whole time. I really think that people need to reconsider how they're treating the claims that have been made. I think that we would be justified in lynching practically any of the claimees, and if anyone is willing to listen to me, I'm ready to use my vote for that.

[Ichimaru Gin]

That's L-2, I believe.

I think it's L-1, actually.

If I'm really going down, I might as well try to analyze my own wagon. There's a good chance scum will outnumber town tomorrow, but as long as whatever separate scum teams there are focus on eliminating each other we still have a chance. I see Ichi and BA's votes on me as largely self-defensive, Ichi in particular is very OMGUS-y; I was one of his strongest town reads until I started expressing suspicion of him. XP also came out of the woodwork to vote for me, I would be very suspicious of him going forward. I can kind of understand Voltaire voting for me out of convenience, especially so close to the deadline, but I also see him being weirdly protective of players that I don't find towny at all (Ichi, Nik). Maybe we just disagree but I obviously can't be sure.

Lurkers be lurking here, and although my post count isn't the highest I've been here the whole time. I really think that people need to reconsider how they're treating the claims that have been made. I think that we would be justified in lynching practically any of the claimees, and if anyone is willing to listen to me, I'm ready to use my vote for that.

This is demonstrably untrue. Far before you voted for me, I voiced my suspicion of you both for your behavior and the lack of suspicion on you. And I don't recall saying much about my reads on you in general, given how you have avoided attention pretty much this whole game.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Aside from ADK, the rest of the people on my wagon are all mildly scummy to me.

Town reads on: XP, Beyond Awesome, ADK

Town read on ADK; from his behavior D1 and now, I feel pretty sure that he's town.

This gives me more of a town-read on ADK I think

As for the lack of suspicion on me, it's not like I haven't been present and posting and interacting with people. Lack of attention and lack of negative attention aren't the same thing. Sorry for not being scummier I guess?

[EgorK]

I still need to think and do some targeted reread, but for now:

Town reads on WV, Volt, BA, scott
Scum reads on ADK, Ichi
Null on everyone else. Had scum reads on Nik, but Volt is rather convincing

After reread I am likely would intent to hammer ADK (unless my reread would dissuade me)

[Ichimaru Gin]

Aside from ADK, the rest of the people on my wagon are all mildly scummy to me.

Town reads on: XP, Beyond Awesome, ADK

Town read on ADK; from his behavior D1 and now, I feel pretty sure that he's town.

This gives me more of a town-read on ADK I think

As for the lack of suspicion on me, it's not like I haven't been present and posting and interacting with people. Lack of attention and lack of negative attention aren't the same thing. Sorry for not being scummier I guess?

No, you're right that I did find you townie earlier. You can see from the dates on the posts though that that was well before you decided to vote for me. I am not as sure about your wagon as I was before though...

[A Drowned Kernel]

Had scum reads on Nik, but Volt is rather convincing

How so?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: Ichimaru

Aside from ADK, the rest of the people on my wagon are all mildly scummy to me.

Note the dates.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Vote: Ichimaru

Aside from ADK, the rest of the people on my wagon are all mildly scummy to me.

Note the dates.

Ha. That must have been a different time that you voted for me. Not the most recent one after I had already found you scummy.

[Axxle]

vote: gin

[Ichimaru Gin]

Vote: Axxle

I feel like he's flying under the radar. He sort of disappeared after Governing his own lynch, which isn't how I feel a town Governor would play it. Town Governor would get more involved after that. Scum Governor would lie low and hope that the momentum required to get his lynch going again would be enough to stop it from actually happening.

RE: people who are actually posting- I would be okay lynching BA. I also didn't consider the possibility, I think pointed out by WW, that Ichi is a scum lover and is telling the truth that he doesn't have partners. That's the perfect claiming situation for scum, since they know they won't be counterclaimed, and provides the perfect fallback, which would allow him to put himself out there as much as he has this game. So I think I would be okay going back to an Ichi lynch too.

As an observation. I think it's worth noting that ADK has gotten almost zero suspicion and has avoided attention almost entirely. I don't get a particularly scummy feeling from him, but I felt the same in HoC when he was scum. I didn't actually know the rules about lovers, but now I understand them I think.

That's what makes it an interesting role if you actually have partners, because your fellow lover(s) could be of different alignments right?

I'm also a little unsure why Nik is completely off the table because Volt says so.  Nik has been nothing to indicate his towniness except do things that don't make sense, and that point is only convincing to Volt.   I'm still far from convinced of Volt's towniness here, but I've lost my gusto for it.  And besides, Volt is an active and good player, so it's not worth taking the risk right now

This, except that I don't think that's it's not worth the risk. I would be behind a Nik lynch.

I'm also not sure why people are no longer considering Ichi. The more I think about it, the more a Lover claim seems completely suspicious. If he is a scum lover (or even has a scum lover on his team), then he would know ahead of time that the claim was completely safe. We also know that one of the scum teams where lover is possible (aliens) is in the game.

Vote: Ichimaru

As for the case against me, I'm not sure what I can say against an argument based around how people are reacting to me rather than anything I've actually posted.

Note the dates on these.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ha. I missed Axxle's vote.
So I distinctly mentioned that I found you scummy, referencing a post where you were voting for Axxle. And this is before you voted for me last time. I did not have a townread on you for at least 2 days before you voted for me this last time.

Axxle had unvoted me with no explanation and then revotes me once again with zero explanation = scum.

I want to lynch either Axxle or ADK today.

[Voltaire]

lynch: everyone

Seriously, I'll vote for whoever has more votes.

vote: ADK right now, unless I'm off.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Speaking of which, could we get a vote count?
cause I don't have a very good idea of where things stand right now.

[Voltaire]

Speaking of which, could we get a vote count?
cause I don't have a very good idea of where things stand right now.

Yeah, reading through just now*, I'm worried I may have hammered.

*not that worried, probably would have wanted to lynch through his claim, but it also seems like he might not have anyway and his most recent post wasn't convincing. He said I defended/deflected from IG and that's not true, I wanted to lynch IG and then he claimed.

[EgorK]

Speaking of which, could we get a vote count?
cause I don't have a very good idea of where things stand right now.

Yeah, reading through just now*, I'm worried I may have hammered.

*not that worried, probably would have wanted to lynch through his claim, but it also seems like he might not have anyway and his most recent post wasn't convincing. He said I defended/deflected from IG and that's not true, I wanted to lynch IG and then he claimed.

You would've hammered, but you already voted for ADK

Meanwhile, I have intent to hammer ADK. Claim?

[Voltaire]

Oh, I was on ADK? Thought I was still on axxle. Ah well.

Fine with ADK being hammered whenever, I'm not unvoting from his claim unless it's instantly provable.

[mail-mi]

Speaking of which, could we get a vote count?
cause I don't have a very good idea of where things stand right now.

Ask, and ye shall receive:

Vote Count 2.8

Beyond Awesome (1): Archetype
Ichimaru Gin (2): A Drowned Kernel, Axxle
EgorK (1): Nik
Axxle (1): scott_pilgrim
A Drowned Kernel (5): XerxesPraelor, Witherweaver, Voltaire, Ichimaru Gin, Beyond Awesome

Not Voting (1): EgorK,

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends on Monday June 2 at 9:30 PM FT. Please note: mail-mi will be going to Spain around the 4th or 5th. AndrewisFTTW will be the official mod from then until about June 15th or 16th.

[Beyond Awesome]

Vote count for ADK says 4 but lists 5 people voting.

[mail-mi]

Vote count for ADK says 4 but lists 5 people voting.

thank you

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ask, and ye shall receive:

[Archetype]

Okay, I guess a random vote isn't a good idea. I agree about ADK, so vote: ADK

Is the case on me just that I haven't had anyone suspicious of me yet? That's seems like a pretty weak argument when there are such heavy lurkers and scummy behavior from people like Ichi.

I also don't know why people are treating these weak-ass claims like they're "get-out-of-lynch-free" cards. BA's is totally unverifiable, Ichi's, Axxle, and S_P's are all available for scum, and if part of the point of claiming is to avoid lynching a powerful town role, besides S_P then we've essentially got three named VTs. Scum is going to lie when asked to claim, and all the claims we've had look to me like the things scum would come up with.

I think we should ask BA to stump himself tomorrow or the day after if he hasn't died by then. At worst, we'll get an IC who can't vote. I bet people other than me also are fine lynching Axxle through his claim, too, so no, the claims are not get-out-of-jail free cards.

I have nothing against this. I'm ready to stump myself whenever the majority of players feel I should.

Hm. This reads really towny. It's also fairly variable, and we can vote on him stumping himself later.

Vote: Ichimaru Gin

[Ichimaru Gin]

Okay, I guess a random vote isn't a good idea. I agree about ADK, so vote: ADK

Is the case on me just that I haven't had anyone suspicious of me yet? That's seems like a pretty weak argument when there are such heavy lurkers and scummy behavior from people like Ichi.

I also don't know why people are treating these weak-ass claims like they're "get-out-of-lynch-free" cards. BA's is totally unverifiable, Ichi's, Axxle, and S_P's are all available for scum, and if part of the point of claiming is to avoid lynching a powerful town role, besides S_P then we've essentially got three named VTs. Scum is going to lie when asked to claim, and all the claims we've had look to me like the things scum would come up with.

I think we should ask BA to stump himself tomorrow or the day after if he hasn't died by then. At worst, we'll get an IC who can't vote. I bet people other than me also are fine lynching Axxle through his claim, too, so no, the claims are not get-out-of-jail free cards.

I have nothing against this. I'm ready to stump myself whenever the majority of players feel I should.

Hm. This reads really towny. It's also fairly variable, and we can vote on him stumping himself later.

Vote: Ichimaru Gin

You've been 100% silent about my claim. Any reasons for voting me now?
Just that you now find BA townier than before?

[Archetype]

Okay, I guess a random vote isn't a good idea. I agree about ADK, so vote: ADK

Is the case on me just that I haven't had anyone suspicious of me yet? That's seems like a pretty weak argument when there are such heavy lurkers and scummy behavior from people like Ichi.

I also don't know why people are treating these weak-ass claims like they're "get-out-of-lynch-free" cards. BA's is totally unverifiable, Ichi's, Axxle, and S_P's are all available for scum, and if part of the point of claiming is to avoid lynching a powerful town role, besides S_P then we've essentially got three named VTs. Scum is going to lie when asked to claim, and all the claims we've had look to me like the things scum would come up with.

I think we should ask BA to stump himself tomorrow or the day after if he hasn't died by then. At worst, we'll get an IC who can't vote. I bet people other than me also are fine lynching Axxle through his claim, too, so no, the claims are not get-out-of-jail free cards.

I have nothing against this. I'm ready to stump myself whenever the majority of players feel I should.

Hm. This reads really towny. It's also fairly variable, and we can vote on him stumping himself later.

Vote: Ichimaru Gin

You've been 100% silent about my claim. Any reasons for voting me now?
Just that you now find BA townier than before?

You claimed? Rereading....

Oh! Chapel! I have no idea why I missed that, sorry! I find it towny. Pretty safe fakeclaim, but sort of risky. I'm willing to take you off the table for now.

Vote: scott_pilgrim

[Beyond Awesome]

Speaking of which, could we get a vote count?
cause I don't have a very good idea of where things stand right now.

Yeah, reading through just now*, I'm worried I may have hammered.

*not that worried, probably would have wanted to lynch through his claim, but it also seems like he might not have anyway and his most recent post wasn't convincing. He said I defended/deflected from IG and that's not true, I wanted to lynch IG and then he claimed.

You would've hammered, but you already voted for ADK

Meanwhile, I have intent to hammer ADK. Claim?

Yes, ADK, are you going to claim?

[Witherweaver]

Okay, I guess a random vote isn't a good idea. I agree about ADK, so vote: ADK

Is the case on me just that I haven't had anyone suspicious of me yet? That's seems like a pretty weak argument when there are such heavy lurkers and scummy behavior from people like Ichi.

I also don't know why people are treating these weak-ass claims like they're "get-out-of-lynch-free" cards. BA's is totally unverifiable, Ichi's, Axxle, and S_P's are all available for scum, and if part of the point of claiming is to avoid lynching a powerful town role, besides S_P then we've essentially got three named VTs. Scum is going to lie when asked to claim, and all the claims we've had look to me like the things scum would come up with.

I think we should ask BA to stump himself tomorrow or the day after if he hasn't died by then. At worst, we'll get an IC who can't vote. I bet people other than me also are fine lynching Axxle through his claim, too, so no, the claims are not get-out-of-jail free cards.

I have nothing against this. I'm ready to stump myself whenever the majority of players feel I should.

Hm. This reads really towny. It's also fairly variable, and we can vote on him stumping himself later.

Vote: Ichimaru Gin

You've been 100% silent about my claim. Any reasons for voting me now?
Just that you now find BA townier than before?

You claimed? Rereading....

Oh! Chapel! I have no idea why I missed that, sorry! I find it towny. Pretty safe fakeclaim, but sort of risky. I'm willing to take you off the table for now.

Vote: scott_pilgrim

Risky how?  He knows there are no other Lovers if he is one.  He likely wouldn't be claiming if he isn't. 

Why Scott?  As it was pointed out, even if he was the Werewolf Watcher he'd still want to find the other scum.  And unless Mail-Mi's thread locking was completely coincidental Scott is definitely a Watcher.

[Voltaire]

prod: this game

Archetype, answer WW's questions. They're good ones.

Nik, your vote is not in a good place. You need to change it. I know I think you're town, but it's because of the specific anti-town way you're behaving. That does not make that anti-town behavior ok.

Also, scott_pilgrim, you're the only vote on axxle now. I'd recommend moving.

[Voltaire]

Actually, right, EgorK has stated intent. Well, I think he should hammer whenever.

[Beyond Awesome]

Actually, right, EgorK has stated intent. Well, I think he should hammer whenever.

I agree. It has been 20 hours since he asked ADK to claim.

[mail-mi]

prod: this game

Prod prod post more prod prod!

Prod sent.

[Axxle]

Vote: ADK

[mail-mi]

Thread Locked!

[mail-mi]

Vote Count 2.FINAL

Beyond Awesome (1): Archetype
Ichimaru Gin (1): A Drowned Kernel
EgorK (1): Nik
Axxle (1): scott_pilgrim
A Drowned Kernel (6): XerxesPraelor, Witherweaver, Voltaire, Ichimaru Gin, Beyond Awesome, Axxle

Not Voting (1): EgorK,

With 11 alive it took 6 to lynch.

[mail-mi]

Fingers were flying. Several times the group piled on one, only to get off when they claimed they had a "good guy" card.

Everyone expected it to happen again when the group piled on A Drowned Kernel. Except, he didn't say a word.

"Tell us who you are!" Voltaire said.

ADK remained silent.

"Fine." Axxle grabbed his hammer (where does he keep that, scott_pilgrim wondered) and smashed ADK's head in.

Except, the hammer bounced right off. Axxle swung a few more times, and finally managed to break through the Golem's thick skull.

A Drowned Kernel has been lynched. He was a Golem, a 2-shot Bulletproof Serial Killer

Night 2 starts now!

Night 2 will end on Wednesday, June 4th at 4:30 PM FT. Please send all actions to both AndrewisFTTW and I, as I will be going to spain tomorrow.

[AndrewisFTTW]

It was another bloody night. But this time there was... MONSTER BLOOD!



Voltaire has been killed. He was a Possessor, an Alien Bloodsucker.

Witherweaver has been killed. He was a Familiar, a Werewolf.

Nik has been Treestumped. He was a Torturer, a Hirsute Goon



DAY 3 STARTS NOW!
THREAD UNLOCKED!

[AndrewisFTTW]

Vote Count 3.0

Not Voting ( 8 ): EgorK, Beyond Awesome, Archetype, Ichimaru Gin, Axxle, Nik, scott_pilgrim, XerxesPraelor

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on Saturday June 14 at 4:30 PM FT.

Note: This is my first time modding so I'm not too sure about this. If 4:30pm on a Saturday is a dumb time to end a day please PM me & mail-mi what you think. I think mail-mi should be back around that time.

[Axxle]

That should be fine as a deadline, town can adjust accordingly.

Nik should not be in the votecount.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Ignore that last vote count. Nik is treestumped and thus cannot vote. Let me try this again:

Vote Count 3.0 (again!)

Not Voting (7): EgorK, Beyond Awesome, Archetype, Ichimaru Gin, Axxle, scott_pilgrim, XerxesPraelor

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on Saturday June 14 at 4:30 PM FT.

Note: This is my first time modding so I'm not too sure about this. If 4:30pm on a Saturday is a dumb time to end a day please PM me & mail-mi what you think. I think mail-mi should be back around that time.

[/quote]

[Axxle]

3 things:

SP, results please!

Do we want to massclaim? There's only 3 people left that haven't claimed yet.

SP's probably just werewolf here, right?

[Beyond Awesome]

3 things:

SP, results please!

Do we want to massclaim? There's only 3 people left that haven't claimed yet.

SP's probably just werewolf here, right?

I am fine with mass claiming. I think we are close to winning this. And, WOOT! 4 scum down! I guess I was right about WW and Nik.

[scott_pilgrim]

3 things:

SP, results please!

Do we want to massclaim? There's only 3 people left that haven't claimed yet.

SP's probably just werewolf here, right?

I watched Witherweaver but haven't gotten a PM from FTTW or mail-mi...I just PM'd them now asking if there was a mistake (I should at least get "no result" if the killer was a ninja or something right?).

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, the person I am most curious about is Archetype. His actions prior to lynching ADK seemed a bit weird to me. I mean, maybe, he was just glazing over all the comments. I mean, he did come into the game late, but I did find his voting odd.

PPE

[Beyond Awesome]

3 things:

SP, results please!

Do we want to massclaim? There's only 3 people left that haven't claimed yet.

SP's probably just werewolf here, right?

I watched Witherweaver but haven't gotten a PM from FTTW or mail-mi...I just PM'd them now asking if there was a mistake (I should at least get "no result" if the killer was a ninja or something right?).

From the looks of things, it seems like they all killed each other, I think.

[scott_pilgrim]

3 things:

SP, results please!

Do we want to massclaim? There's only 3 people left that haven't claimed yet.

SP's probably just werewolf here, right?

I watched Witherweaver but haven't gotten a PM from FTTW or mail-mi...I just PM'd them now asking if there was a mistake (I should at least get "no result" if the killer was a ninja or something right?).

From the looks of things, it seems like they all killed each other, I think.

Oh I guess that's possible.  Shouldn't I still get results though?

[Archetype]

Anyway, the person I am most curious about is Archetype. His actions prior to lynching ADK seemed a bit weird to me. I mean, maybe, he was just glazing over all the comments. I mean, he did come into the game late, but I did find his voting odd.

PPE

Do you think I'm ADK's partner?

I'm fine with mass claiming. Also, if Scott did watch WW, it's very likely he's a WW (man, that's confusing to write).

PPE: 2

[Ichimaru Gin]

Anyway, the person I am most curious about is Archetype. His actions prior to lynching ADK seemed a bit weird to me. I mean, maybe, he was just glazing over all the comments. I mean, he did come into the game late, but I did find his voting odd.

PPE

I agree.

Wow, three scum dead/stumped. That's really good.
Hah! Voltaire was scum and so was Nik, but they were on different teams. Don't know if I saw that coming.

[scott_pilgrim]

Okay just got a PM, EgorK and XerxesPraelor targeted Witherweaver last night.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay just got a PM, EgorK and XerxesPraelor targeted Witherweaver last night.

Seems plausible. I did have EgorK on my scum radar for sometime. And, brought up his lurkiness on a few occasions.

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, the person I am most curious about is Archetype. His actions prior to lynching ADK seemed a bit weird to me. I mean, maybe, he was just glazing over all the comments. I mean, he did come into the game late, but I did find his voting odd.

PPE

Do you think I'm ADK's partner?

I'm fine with mass claiming. Also, if Scott did watch WW, it's very likely he's a WW (man, that's confusing to write).

PPE: 2

Do Serial Killers have partners? I think that was what ADK was.

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: Archetype
I feel confident that he is scum.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay just got a PM, EgorK and XerxesPraelor targeted Witherweaver last night.

Seems plausible. I did have EgorK on my scum radar for sometime. And, brought up his lurkiness on a few occasions.

And ditto for Xerxes. I found him a bit scummy at times. So, are these two a team?

[Beyond Awesome]

Or, is another possibility SP is making this up. He did claim to watch WW who was a werewolf, and he could be a werewolf watcher. Coincidence?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Okay just got a PM, EgorK and XerxesPraelor targeted Witherweaver last night.

Seems plausible. I did have EgorK on my scum radar for sometime. And, brought up his lurkiness on a few occasions.

And ditto for Xerxes. I found him a bit scummy at times. So, are these two a team?

I found EgorK pretty scummy. However, I am mistrustful of S_P's results. I feel like either Axxle or S_P is scum, probably not both. Axxle has participated quite a bit more, and Voltaire was definitely going to lynch him, so I think we can be sure he's not an Alien at least. However, it's possible (maybe likely) that Voltaire was the only Alien anyway. I think it'd be worth going back and looking at the wagons that were really close to going through and see where these new flips stood.

[Axxle]

vote: Archetype
I feel confident that he is scum.

What? No. Scum is absolutely within SP, EgorK, XP because of SP's results.

[Axxle]

vote: Archetype
I feel confident that he is scum.

What? No. Scum is absolutely within SP, EgorK, XP because of SP's results.

What I mean to say is that Archetype *might* be scum, but there's definitely scum between those three and that's where we should lynch.

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: Archetype
I feel confident that he is scum.

What? No. Scum is absolutely within SP, EgorK, XP because of SP's results.

But how do we know S_P isn't lying?

[Axxle]

werewolf watcher

www.?

[Axxle]

vote: Archetype
I feel confident that he is scum.

What? No. Scum is absolutely within SP, EgorK, XP because of SP's results.

But how do we know S_P isn't lying?

Bolded for clarification.

[scott_pilgrim]

Coincidence?

Yes!

I don't see why me watching a werewolf would make me more likely to be a werewolf.

I watched Witherweaver because it seemed like people had relatively extreme opinions on him (either he's definitely scummy or definitely townie), or ambivalent opinions (some stuff he posts looks townie and other stuff looks scummy).  I couldn't decide whether scum would be looking to kill scum or town but in either case I think you want to target someone like Witherweaver.

Actually I was thinking about watching Voltaire again last night, because I thought scum wouldn't think I would watch him twice in a row so he would be a more likely NK target.  Turns out I was right, but I guess I was right about WW being a likely kill target too.

[Axxle]

I think I slightly prefer XP claiming before EgorK? Any opinions on that? I'm also ok with them claiming in whatever order.

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: Archetype
I feel confident that he is scum.

What? No. Scum is absolutely within SP, EgorK, XP because of SP's results.

But how do we know S_P isn't lying?

Bolded for clarification.

I did miss that originally. However, if S_P is scum and lying, than Archetype is much more likely scum. So it seems like you're assuming S_P to be town in order to defend Archetype here.

[Axxle]

If SP is scum and lying he's 100% scum? And Archetype is <100% scum? I don't see your point here.

[Axxle]

And how is SP being scum have an effect on what you think Archetype's alignment is?

[Ichimaru Gin]

And how is SP being scum have an effect on what you think Archetype's alignment is?

If S_P is lying, than it likely means that he is a werewolf. Furthermore, him being scum means that someone else isn't scum. Him lying about EgorK and XP means that they are more likely town (though of course they could always be mafia or aliens). To me, this would indicate more strongly that Archetype is scum.

[Axxle]

And how is SP being scum have an effect on what you think Archetype's alignment is?

If S_P is lying, than it likely means that he is a werewolf. Furthermore, him being scum means that someone else isn't scum. Him lying about EgorK and XP means that they are more likely town (though of course they could always be mafia or aliens). To me, this would indicate more strongly that Archetype is scum.

Actually I really really doubt SP is lying here. There's very little point. I think that SP is telling the truth, may or may not be WW (I'm leaning toward yes), and has caught a different scum in Egor and XP.

[Beyond Awesome]

So, I do have a question. So, if you are partners, does that mean you both kill as a pair? So, one NK per set of partners, correct?

Anyway, I agree with Axxle. XP should claim and then EgorK. Although, if XP ends up being scum it is very likely that EgorK is also scum. It could also mean that Archetype is scum, in that case. Anyway, Archetype, XP, EgorK, and SP seem to be our likely suspects at this point. For all we know, all of them could be scum.

[Beyond Awesome]

Although, now that I think about. I think it is unlikely all 4 are scum. It does take 4 lynch and 4 scum are dead. That would mean the game started with 8 scum which seems excessive to me. So, I think at least one of these players is innocent.

Anyway, I am going out for the evening and won't be back for a few hours. XP has come off scummy to me in the past, and I think based of SP's results, we should make one of the two claim, so I'm going to vote for XP. If XP is not scum then we know SP was lying, and we can lynch him instead.

Vote: XP

[Axxle]

So, I do have a question. So, if you are partners, does that mean you both kill as a pair? So, one NK per set of partners, correct?

Anyway, I agree with Axxle. XP should claim and then EgorK. Although, if XP ends up being scum it is very likely that EgorK is also scum. It could also mean that Archetype is scum, in that case. Anyway, Archetype, XP, EgorK, and SP seem to be our likely suspects at this point. For all we know, all of them could be scum.

Hell of a game to pick as your first.

Yeah, each scum faction as a kill that one of the members can perform per night. The Aliens have only one kill they can perform per *game*. They can't use their kill and treestump on the same night though, so none of the kills came from aliens so far.

There is no guarantee that any of the factions have more than one member though.

[EgorK]

SP is most likely tracker as I targeted WW during night. On the other hand I suspect he is werewolf tracker

Anyway, Vote: XP until his explanation

[Axxle]

SP is most likely tracker as I targeted WW during night. On the other hand I suspect he is werewolf tracker

Anyway, Vote: XP until his explanation

It's watcher (similar but different).

That's L-2, I'd expect you to vote as town or scum though so null there.

[scott_pilgrim]

Although, now that I think about. I think it is unlikely all 4 are scum. It does take 4 lynch and 4 scum are dead. That would mean the game started with 8 scum which seems excessive to me. So, I think at least one of these players is innocent.

Anyway, I am going out for the evening and won't be back for a few hours. XP has come off scummy to me in the past, and I think based of SP's results, we should make one of the two claim, so I'm going to vote for XP. If XP is not scum then we know SP was lying, and we can lynch him instead.

Vote: XP

Just to clarify, only one of the members of a team performs the night kill.  It seems like you are under the impression that all members of the team do the kill, so if EgorK and XP were partners who killed WW, I would see that they both targeted him, but that's NOT the case; I would only see that one of them targeted him (whichever one chose to do the night kill).  So one of them definitely* killed him, and the other one may have attempted to kill him from a different scum faction, or just targeted him with some other PR.  The fact that they both targeted him doesn't make them more likely to be scum partners.

*Edge case: it's possible that they both targeted him with a friendly PR and a third person did a ninja-kill or something, but that's obviously a lot less likely.

[Axxle]

*Edge case: it's possible that they both targeted him with a friendly PR and a third person did a ninja-kill or something, but that's obviously a lot less likely.

That's impossible in this situation since the only ninja is a werewolf.

[Beyond Awesome]

Although, now that I think about. I think it is unlikely all 4 are scum. It does take 4 lynch and 4 scum are dead. That would mean the game started with 8 scum which seems excessive to me. So, I think at least one of these players is innocent.

Anyway, I am going out for the evening and won't be back for a few hours. XP has come off scummy to me in the past, and I think based of SP's results, we should make one of the two claim, so I'm going to vote for XP. If XP is not scum then we know SP was lying, and we can lynch him instead.

Vote: XP

Just to clarify, only one of the members of a team performs the night kill.  It seems like you are under the impression that all members of the team do the kill, so if EgorK and XP were partners who killed WW, I would see that they both targeted him, but that's NOT the case; I would only see that one of them targeted him (whichever one chose to do the night kill).  So one of them definitely* killed him, and the other one may have attempted to kill him from a different scum faction, or just targeted him with some other PR.  The fact that they both targeted him doesn't make them more likely to be scum partners.

*Edge case: it's possible that they both targeted him with a friendly PR and a third person did a ninja-kill or something, but that's obviously a lot less likely.

Okay, I did not understand that. I thought that maybe they killed as an entire group. So, its possible that one of them was a town person while the other is scum, or they both could be scum. Either way, my vote on XP stands. There is right now an exceptional chance that he is scum.

[Archetype]

So, here's who we have:

Ichimaru Gin -- Lover
Beyond Awesome -- Treestumper
scott_pilgrim -- Watcher
Axxle -- 1-shot Governor
EgorK --
XerxesPraelor --
Archetype --

Scum wise, I'm guessing we have 2 Mafia/2 WW/1 SK/1 Alien. So we're looking for 1 Mafia and 1 WW. I'm thinking they're all within EgorK/scott_pilgrim/XP. I'm thinking scott_pilgrim is the WW and then one of XP/EgorK is the Mafia. I'm not sure which one - I need to reread for interactions. I personally would rather lynch scott_pilgrim since him Watching WW pretty much solidifies in my mind that they're partners. Plus his explanation is really weak.

Vote: scott_pilgrim

[Archetype]

Anyway, the person I am most curious about is Archetype. His actions prior to lynching ADK seemed a bit weird to me. I mean, maybe, he was just glazing over all the comments. I mean, he did come into the game late, but I did find his voting odd.

PPE

Do you think I'm ADK's partner?

I'm fine with mass claiming. Also, if Scott did watch WW, it's very likely he's a WW (man, that's confusing to write).

PPE: 2

Do Serial Killers have partners? I think that was what ADK was.

I was just making a joke. Serial Killers do not have partners.


Are we going to have the 3 remaining unknowns claim? Jo can still post, right? I'd like him to organizing claiming order if we do do it.

[Axxle]

Can we have nik say an order too? Haha

[XerxesPraelor]

What's the case on egorK?

I'm a vanilla cop and I targeted ww last night. He's vanilla.

[Axxle]

Who did you target night 1?

[Axxle]

And why did you target either?

Egor claim asap

[Archetype]

Can we have nik say an order too? Haha

As long as he puts his partner first!

[XerxesPraelor]

I targeted him because he hadn't claimed yet and stuck out to me more than the other people who also hadn't. I actually forgot to target anyone N1 - I think I didn't realize how short the deadline was.

[scott_pilgrim]

That sounds like a really easy fakeclaim, cop someone who has already flipped, and then claim to have forgotten to target anyone N1 so you don't have to defend your choice in who you targeted.

[XerxesPraelor]

Yeah, it's too bad. Want me to vanilla cop someone who hasn't claimed to show I am one actually?

[XerxesPraelor]

Anyway, let's lynch egorK, and when he flips scum, you'll know that I'm telling the truth.

[XerxesPraelor]

I'm sure s_p is a watcher based on this, but watching your partner is what scum would do. I think his role is pretty useful for town, though, so we should let him live for now. I'm still suspicious of BA, despite his claim. I think he should maybe treestump himself today, and definitely tomorrow if he survives and there's an even number of people.

[XerxesPraelor]

I'm guessing the remaining scum is egorK, s_p, and BA. Egotistical is the most urgent one, because his death will clear me. vote: egorK

[scott_pilgrim]

Yeah, it's too bad. Want me to vanilla cop someone who hasn't claimed to show I am one actually?

It would be nice, except that after EgorK claims, Archetype will be the only one left who hasn't claimed (and there's no guarantee he'll survive anyway).  I mean if you're town then it sucks because it just looks like such an easy fakeclaim and there's nothing you can do about it, but if the prevailing opinion ends up being that EgorK's claim is much more believable than yours, we're going to lynch you first.

Anyway, let's lynch egorK, and when he flips scum, you'll know that I'm telling the truth.

1. There's no reason to think you're not both scum.  You could be different scum factions who both tried to kill WW last night, or you could even be scum partners such that one of you wanted to kill WW and the other wanted to do something else to him (though I'm not sure what that would be).

2. It's not like we have a lot of wiggle room for mislynches.  We absolutely should try to maximize our chances of lynching scum today because I'm pretty sure we just lose if we mislynch*.  What I'm saying is, if you're scum telling us to lynch EgorK first, if he flips town, it's too late for us to do much about it; so we can't listen to you just tell us to lynch EgorK first and then lynch you if he flips town.

*There's 7 of us left, if we mislynch that's 6 with 3 NK's, we have to hope at most 1 scum survives and we find them on the last day, so I guess it's possible to win if we mislynch today but I think it's a pretty bad chance.

[scott_pilgrim]

I'm sure s_p is a watcher based on this, but watching your partner is what scum would do.

Why do people keep saying this?  I'm not denying that it might be the best way for a scum watcher to play, I just don't see why it would be the case, and people keep saying it without explanation.  I mean I watched Voltaire N1 and I'm obviously not alien since alien watcher doesn't exist.  I want to watch the non-me person I think is most likely to be NK'd, regardless of that person's alignment.

[EgorK]

I am Gravedigger aka Graverobber

[XerxesPraelor]

SP is most likely tracker as I targeted WW during night. On the other hand I suspect he is werewolf tracker

Anyway, Vote: XP until his explanation

This is why claiming is useful - sometimes you catch scum in a lie.

[XerxesPraelor]

Being a gravedigger is very different from actually targeting someone. This is obviously clumsy scum.

[XerxesPraelor]

S_p, what do you think about this?

[XerxesPraelor]

Is everyone asleep or something? This is the first time I caught someone in a lie, and I'm surprised noone's voting him.

[XerxesPraelor]

BTW, 3 people died last night, so the situation where we both tried to NK is impossible.

[EgorK]

Being a gravedigger is very different from actually targeting someone. This is obviously clumsy scum.

You try to make case on nothing. Context of my message was obviously in regard to SP as watcher. And for all means I targeted NK (interesting question whether I targeted treestumps, probably not), just I did it involontary

Now I even more confident in my vote for you

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, I am really confused right now.

How exactly does Gravedigger work? Does it target a NK like EgorK is saying or what? If so, then shouldn't he have targeted just SP, the watcher?

[Beyond Awesome]

I also would like joth to give some insight into all of this.

[Beyond Awesome]

Okay, so I think I understand Gravedigger better. It says that it targets the NK's player tracking them back to watchers and trackers. So, it would be EgorK targeting WW.

In that case, I feel EgorK's claim is more believable. We already had 2 dead cops D1 after all.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Vote Count 3.1

Archetype (1): Ichimaru Gin
XerxesPraelor (2): Beyond Awesome, EgorK
scott_pilgrim (1): Archetype

Not Voting (3): Axxle, scott_pilgrim, XerxesPraelor

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 3 ends on Saturday June 14 at 4:30 PM FT.

[XerxesPraelor]

Will someone who isn't scum please comment?

Gravedigger does not target all people NKd. It is seen targeting the NK by trackers and watchers.

[XerxesPraelor]

FWIW, BA really looks like egorK's partner to me from this.

[Beyond Awesome]

Will someone who isn't scum please comment?

Gravedigger does not target all people NKd. It is seen targeting the NK by trackers and watchers.

This is the exact wording in the doc Gravedigger (Shows up as targeting all nightkilled players to Trackers and Watchers on night of said players' deaths)--Graverobber

[XerxesPraelor]

Gravedigger shows up as targeting, it doesn't target.

[Axxle]

FWIW, BA really looks like egorK's partner to me from this.

I really doubt anyone still alive are partners with each other.

Egor, have you hinted at gravedigger before now?

[Beyond Awesome]

Gravedigger shows up as targeting, it doesn't target.

I see what you are saying. So, gravedigger pretty much means that if someone is killed then it shows up as if they targeted that person. So, watchers and trackers will see the gravediggers name next to the other person who did the kill as well. Is that how it works? If so, man that sounds like a really crappy role to have. What's the point of it.

[Beyond Awesome]

SP is most likely tracker as I targeted WW during night. On the other hand I suspect he is werewolf tracker

Anyway, Vote: XP until his explanation

Here is EgorK's original quote. It does sound like he may have been lying. But, he could have also meant that he showed up as targeting and thought SP was a tracker because trackers and watchers see him as targeting kills. Although, I am a bit surprised EgorK missed the whole ordeal over SP being Watcher though.

I honestly don't know what to think.

[Axxle]

SP is most likely tracker as I targeted WW during night. On the other hand I suspect he is werewolf tracker

Anyway, Vote: XP until his explanation

Here is EgorK's original quote. It does sound like he may have been lying. But, he could have also meant that he showed up as targeting and thought SP was a tracker because trackers and watchers see him as targeting kills. Although, I am a bit surprised EgorK missed the whole ordeal over SP being Watcher though.

I honestly don't know what to think.

I meant before SP claimed to have targeted WW.

[Axxle]

Vote: EgorK

He didn't hint at it at all, and never even commented on SP's role. I think he's lying here. This is the same as claiming Miller after a Cop has a guilty on you.

[scott_pilgrim]

SP is most likely tracker as I targeted WW during night. On the other hand I suspect he is werewolf tracker

Anyway, Vote: XP until his explanation

Here is EgorK's original quote. It does sound like he may have been lying. But, he could have also meant that he showed up as targeting and thought SP was a tracker because trackers and watchers see him as targeting kills. Although, I am a bit surprised EgorK missed the whole ordeal over SP being Watcher though.

I honestly don't know what to think.

I think it's just easy to get trackers and watchers mixed up, I don't think it means anything.

I'm not sure what XP is saying is wrong with EgorK's claim?  If XP NK'd WW last night, then EgorK would show up to me as having targeted WW as well if he is actually gravedigger, so there's nothing wrong with that.  From XP's perspective if he's town he knows EgorK is lying, but no one else knows that.

BTW, 3 people died last night, so the situation where we both tried to NK is impossible.

We still don't know how many factions there are, right?  We could have started with 5 factions and had overlapping kills both nights (I think it's possible to have multiple SK's?).  Not the most likely situation, I'm just saying it's a possibility and you aren't going to be cleared if EgorK flips scum.

[scott_pilgrim]

Vote: EgorK

He didn't hint at it at all, and never even commented on SP's role. I think he's lying here. This is the same as claiming Miller after a Cop has a guilty on you.

Exactly, vote: EgorK, that's L-2.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Mmm. Gravedigger vs. a vanilla cop. Well, it looks like no one wants to vote for Archetype. And he's been somewhat townier today as compared to earlier days. Although I'm still suspicious of him, if S_P is town, I think we've got this game mostly made.
I'll vote: EgorK he's lurked pretty much the whole game and his claim is scummy.

This is L-1 I believe.

[Axxle]

Actually that was probably the hammer...

I'm guessing the remaining scum is egorK, s_p, and BA. Egotistical is the most urgent one, because his death will clear me. vote: egorK

[Ichimaru Gin]

Actually that was probably the hammer...

I'm guessing the remaining scum is egorK, s_p, and BA. Egotistical is the most urgent one, because his death will clear me. vote: egorK

WHAT?!

S_P said it was L-2. Don't tell me...

[Axxle]

Andrew missed XP's vote in the last votecount.

[Axxle]

tbf he didn't put the vote on a new line like people should

[Beyond Awesome]

I hope that wasn't hammer. I'm still not convinced EgorK is scum. Although, I think it is likely.

PPS

Well, I guess that is hammer. Let's just hope he's scum then.

[Beyond Awesome]

I mean to say PPE not PPS

[scott_pilgrim]

Andrew missed XP's vote in the last votecount.

Just checked this and you're right, that was the hammer.

Man, people should just never listen to me when I announce L-x...I think something like this almost happened in Adventure Time too.

[scott_pilgrim]

Andrew missed XP's vote in the last votecount.

Just checked this and you're right, that was the hammer.

Man, people should just never listen to me when I announce L-x...I think something like this almost happened in Adventure Time too.

Though at least this time I was going off of Andrew's incorrect vote count

[Beyond Awesome]

I just want to say I really think XP is scum.

[scott_pilgrim]

tbf he didn't put the vote on a new line like people should

It was all part of his plan to get us to accidentally lynch EgorK!

[Beyond Awesome]

So, if EgorK comes up as town, what are the odds of us being able to still win this? I mean, we will know XP is scum, and we might still have one scum left, right? Maybe even more?

[XerxesPraelor]

Luckily, that's not going to happen.

[Axxle]

Luckily, that's not going to happen.

[Axxle]

So, if EgorK comes up as town, what are the odds of us being able to still win this? I mean, we will know XP is scum, and we might still have one scum left, right? Maybe even more?

We can figure that out after seeing the number of night kills, I think we still have a good chance of winning.  I doubt there are more than 2 more scum.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So, if EgorK comes up as town, what are the odds of us being able to still win this? I mean, we will know XP is scum, and we might still have one scum left, right? Maybe even more?

We can figure that out after seeing the number of night kills, I think we still have a good chance of winning.  I doubt there are more than 2 more scum.

Wait. So is EgorK for sure hammered?

[Axxle]

I don't see how he can't be.

[AndrewisFTTW]

THREAD LOCKED!

[AndrewisFTTW]

FINAL Vote Count

XerxesPraelor (2): Beyond Awesome, EgorK
scott_pilgrim (1): Archetype
EgorK (4): XerxesPraelor, Axxle, scott_pilgrim, Ichimaru Gin

With 7 alive it took 4 to lynch.

Sorry for the suspense but I can't do the flip right now. Check back in about 30 mins. Also sorry for missing XP's vote.

[AndrewisFTTW]

EgorK has been lynched. He was a Noble, a Mafia 1-Shot Governor.

Night 3 starts now!

Night 3 will end on Saturday, June 7th at 7:15 PM FT.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Deadline for night actions is 30 minutes before Day 4 at 6:45 PM FT. Please submit all night actions by then.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Axxle has been killed. He was a Governor, a 1-Shot Governor.


DAY 4 STARTS NOW!
THREAD UNLOCKED!

[AndrewisFTTW]

Vote Count 4.0

Not Voting (5): Beyond Awesome, Archetype, XerxesPraelor, scott_pilgrim, Ichimaru Gin

With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 4 ends Saturday June 14 at 7:00pm FT.

[scott_pilgrim]

I watched Axxle last night (for obvious reasons), Xerxes targeted him, let's please lynch Xerxes.

vote: XerxesPraelor

[Ichimaru Gin]

I watched Axxle last night (for obvious reasons), Xerxes targeted him, let's please lynch Xerxes.

vote: XerxesPraelor

I think we really have a chance at winning today. Axxle's flip makes me trust you more I think.
Thankfully, my semi-derphammer on EgorK turned out for the best. I'm ready to vote for XP, but I think I'd like to hear from the others first.

[Archetype]

What was your vanilla Cop result, XP?

[Archetype]

I'm pretty sure s_p is scum, but I want to hear XP's investigaton results before voting.

[Beyond Awesome]

I watched Axxle last night (for obvious reasons), Xerxes targeted him, let's please lynch Xerxes.

vote: XerxesPraelor

I think we really have a chance at winning today. Axxle's flip makes me trust you more I think.
Thankfully, my semi-derphammer on EgorK turned out for the best. I'm ready to vote for XP, but I think I'd like to hear from the others first.

Yes, I think we also have a good shot at winning today. I'm surprised SP wasn't killed. I figured with him being Watcher he would go this time. Also, quite the surprise with EgorK there. Good thing we did lynch him.

I also want to wait and see what others thoughts are.

I did do a full reread from Day 1 up to present before this day started. Honestly, I think XP is most likely town and that Archetype is scum. His behavior seems very scummy throughout, and he has pretty much lurked just like EgorK did. Archetype can you please claim now.

[Beyond Awesome]

I do also think it stands a good chance that SP could be scum as well since it was Axxle that was killed and not him. Archetype and SP would be my top two choices.

[Beyond Awesome]

What was your vanilla Cop result, XP?

Ditto. Please tell XP.

[Beyond Awesome]

I watched Axxle last night (for obvious reasons), Xerxes targeted him, let's please lynch Xerxes.

vote: XerxesPraelor

For some reason I missed this post. In that case, I think what you're saying is true. Still surprised he would kill Axxle over you. I'm still not sure what to think of Archetype. I think it is weird that he would ask to wait for XP's cop results. Maybe Archetype and XP are on a team.

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, I'm going to trust SP's results. If he is lying, we will know the next day, and we lynch him for what is hopefully the win, assuming he does not have partner.

So, Vote: XP

[Beyond Awesome]

That's L-1. Let's not hammer though until others have had a chance to chime.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Anyway, I'm going to trust SP's results. If he is lying, we will know the next day, and we lynch him for what is hopefully the win, assuming he does not have partner.

So, Vote: XP

Ah. I'm not sure. It's between Archetype and XP in my mind. We had only one nightkill. Although that doesn't necessarily mean there's only one scum left I think. At any rate, if XP flips town, I think we can be fairly certain that Archetype is scum. So long as we're trusting S_P's results, then I think we can be sure that XP is scum though. Archetype asked him a good question, and I'd like to see his answer.

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, I'm going to trust SP's results. If he is lying, we will know the next day, and we lynch him for what is hopefully the win, assuming he does not have partner.

So, Vote: XP

Ah. I'm not sure. It's between Archetype and XP in my mind. We had only one nightkill. Although that doesn't necessarily mean there's only one scum left I think. At any rate, if XP flips town, I think we can be fairly certain that Archetype is scum. So long as we're trusting S_P's results, then I think we can be sure that XP is scum though. Archetype asked him a good question, and I'd like to see his answer.

Hmm...Wouldn't it be the case though that if XP flips town that SP is scum since he gave us false information?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Anyway, I'm going to trust SP's results. If he is lying, we will know the next day, and we lynch him for what is hopefully the win, assuming he does not have partner.

So, Vote: XP

Ah. I'm not sure. It's between Archetype and XP in my mind. We had only one nightkill. Although that doesn't necessarily mean there's only one scum left I think. At any rate, if XP flips town, I think we can be fairly certain that Archetype is scum. So long as we're trusting S_P's results, then I think we can be sure that XP is scum though. Archetype asked him a good question, and I'd like to see his answer.

Hmm...Wouldn't it be the case though that if XP flips town that SP is scum since he gave us false information?

Yes. That would be the case, and my townread on you is strengthened.
He was right about EgorK though, so unless he was bussing or from a different scumteam, I feel pretty sure S_P is town.

[Beyond Awesome]

Yes, I think you are right. SP has come across town the entire time. I honestly think that XP and Archetype are a team. I think SP's readings pretty much confirm XP is scum (assuming SP is not lying). And, looking through all of Archetype's posts, his actions have always been so bizarre. So, I think we have two scum left working together.

[Archetype]

Vote: XP

[AndrewisFTTW]

Thread Locked!

[AndrewisFTTW]

Final Vote Count

XerxesPraelor (3): scott_pilgrim, Beyond Awesome, Archetype

Not Voting (2): XerxesPraelor, Ichimaru Gin

With 5 alive it took 3 to lynch.

[AndrewisFTTW]

XerxesPraelor has been lynched! He was an Accountant, a Vanilla Cop.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Town has been endgamed!

Congratulations to

scott_pilgrim, the Market Shop Owner, the Werewolf Watcher

 and

Archetype, Dame Archetype, the Werewolf Godfather.

[ashersky]

Congrats!  Second straight WW win for this setup family!

[Beyond Awesome]

Congrats!

I feel kind of stupid though looking back. Obviously, this was my first game. But, I pretty much had a giant hunch Archetype was scum. SP did a great job though. Had me fooled at the end. Sorry town

[Ichimaru Gin]

Damn it!

Congrats S_P, you really had me fooled! I should have lynched Archetype instead, as I felt he was scummy from almost the moment he showed up, but failed to do anything about it.
My reads were actually pretty good, as I knew WW was scum and was pretty accurate on everyone else. But darn it, I just threw it all away at the end, ignoring stuff I had said before about either S_P or Axxle was scum. I must admit, I've been pretty shot lately so wasn't paying attention.

You guys played well though. Especially S_P's fakeclaim that held up well and ended up being right on EgorK. Ah, it's so frustrating losing though. I don't think I've won a single game since I started playing.

[Axxle]

Boo, why did I die instead of sp is what town should have asked

[Beyond Awesome]

Boo, why did I die instead of sp is what town should have asked

Yah. I asked that question, but obviously did not put the proper amount of thought into it. 

[Beyond Awesome]

I really messed this up. I'm the one that voted XP. And, I even said a couple posts earlier I found him townier... Ugh! Well, I have learned my lesson, so for my second game I am more prepared.

[scott_pilgrim]

Woohoo!

Boo, why did I die instead of sp is what town should have asked

Yeah; I mean you were an IC, and there was maybe a case that I was a likely lynch candidate, but you were an obvious NK choice so scum would have expected me to watch you, and then they're caught.  So yeah, I think I was mostly saved by Beyond Awesome voting too soon.  I think town was mostly working on the assumption that there was probably only one scum left, in which case there was no danger of a quickhammer if I was the other scum.

We were also thinking there was a good chance XP targeted Archetype last night (since he was the only one left who hadn't claimed), and then after XP claimed his result on Archetype, Archetype would claim the opposite, which would make XP look super bad.  At that point XP would pretty much know me and Archetype were scum partners but we would have just needed one of BA/IG to vote XP for the win.  But we managed to get that vote before XP even showed up anyway, so it all worked out.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I'm still too easily convinced by other people's arguments I think. I should have stuck to my guns (and guts) and gone after Archetype. Oh well, something to incorporate in the future. Next game, I'm going to be a lot more stubborn.

[Beyond Awesome]

Woohoo!

Boo, why did I die instead of sp is what town should have asked

Yeah; I mean you were an IC, and there was maybe a case that I was a likely lynch candidate, but you were an obvious NK choice so scum would have expected me to watch you, and then they're caught.  So yeah, I think I was mostly saved by Beyond Awesome voting too soon.  I think town was mostly working on the assumption that there was probably only one scum left, in which case there was no danger of a quickhammer if I was the other scum.

We were also thinking there was a good chance XP targeted Archetype last night (since he was the only one left who hadn't claimed), and then after XP claimed his result on Archetype, Archetype would claim the opposite, which would make XP look super bad.  At that point XP would pretty much know me and Archetype were scum partners but we would have just needed one of BA/IG to vote XP for the win.  But we managed to get that vote before XP even showed up anyway, so it all worked out.

Yah. I probably would have fallen for that. But, I already voted too soon. I feel really stupid about that. I wasn't thinking things through fully. If you go back and read my posts we have me questioning SP not dying instead of Axxle. Honestly, SP was the most obvious choice. Then, we have me even assuming there was a good chance that Archetype was scum, and I was thinking he was XP's partner, but for some reason I never put you and Archetype working together. Ugh! I should have really known better though because Archetype had scum written all over him.

[Witherweaver]

Hey I win too. WW the WW.

I rule at dying at scum and letting my partners win.

[Beyond Awesome]

I think what really helped SP is that we relied on him too much. He made some good calculations and knew how to watch and after being correct about EgorK which unfortunately XP also targeted WW, it just made it seem likely SP was town and XP scum. It didn't help that I kept going back and forth thinking XP was scum. Although, I think part of this was because XP was convinced that I was scum. So, I guess we kind of got into this town against town thing believing each other to be scum.

Oh, well, I have learned a lot of lessons this game.

[Witherweaver]

I was 142% convinced Ichi was scum though.  I guess I was really of there

[Axxle]

I'm still too easily convinced by other people's arguments I think. I should have stuck to my guns (and guts) and gone after Archetype. Oh well, something to incorporate in the future. Next game, I'm going to be a lot more stubborn.

No one said archetype wasn't scum, just that we had really obvious scum from sp's results

[Archetype]

Awesome job Scotty! You played that Watcher really well.

This game has taught me that WW is always scum.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I totally didn't sign up to be a full mod so thanks for bearing me and PHEW!

N1 pretty much sealed town's fate what with losing two cops and all.

[Archetype]

I think what really helped SP is that we relied on him too much. He made some good calculations and knew how to watch and after being correct about EgorK which unfortunately XP also targeted WW, it just made it seem likely SP was town and XP scum. It didn't help that I kept going back and forth thinking XP was scum. Although, I think part of this was because XP was convinced that I was scum. So, I guess we kind of got into this town against town thing believing each other to be scum.

Oh, well, I have learned a lot of lessons this game.

That's sort of the bad thing about multi scum faction games, just because someone pushes for a scum lynch, it doesn't necessarily make them Town. But it lets scum have some use for generally Town PRs, which is cool.

[scott_pilgrim]

Andrew (or anyone else), do you have the QT's?

Werewolf QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/WGA9Wj4Ayi28

[Witherweaver]

Awesome job Scotty! You played that Watcher really well.

This game has taught me that WW is always scum.

I have a great record though

[AndrewisFTTW]

Mod QT:
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/SFf6nu6n9Rht9

Alien QT:
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/YsWSt7pjpDqy

Mafia QT:
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/GdE4xNjHJYm

Werewolf QT:
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/WGA9Wj4Ayi28

SK QT:
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/FXSAUFUzKQNVn

Speccy:
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/8R4ps3CF4SZUH

[XerxesPraelor]

Waking up to that was not very fun. Well, at least dice Mafia can start.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I was 142% convinced Ichi was scum though.  I guess I was really of there

It's funny to see all of the qt stuff. Interesting because during the game, I thought you were only trying to paint me as opposed to having legitimate reads on me. I didn't have much to back up my reads other than hunches and stuff, but ironically, most of them were right--I just wish I stuck with them.
I didn't give this game all of the attention it deserved though, especially towards the end. And I definitely played a little different on earlier days due to the large player pool.

[Voltaire]

Me in this game: as the only alien, I was either a Survivor who can't win with any other alignment, or a SK without a full nightkill.

 

Still fun, though! Wish I had been lynched instead of NK'd, though.

[Witherweaver]

I was 142% convinced Ichi was scum though.  I guess I was really of there

It's funny to see all of the qt stuff. Interesting because during the game, I thought you were only trying to paint me as opposed to having legitimate reads on me. I didn't have much to back up my reads other than hunches and stuff, but ironically, most of them were right--I just wish I stuck with them.
I didn't give this game all of the attention it deserved though, especially towards the end. And I definitely played a little different on earlier days due to the large player pool.

Well with this setup, since there are so many factions, each one is basically hunting for the other.  So everything I said about you was legitimately what I was thinking.  I was just wrong

I was right about Voltaire, though

[Beyond Awesome]

Anyway, on a last note, I wanted to say I enjoyed my first Mafia game. Thanks to Mail-mi and Andrewis for modding. I really enjoyed this setup and think it made for an interesting dynamic. Obviously, this was my first game, so I would not know any better.

Just let me know when the next mafia sign-up is.

[Teproc]

I lose again

SP was definitely the right lynch today, but I thought for sure BA was scum, so I would have messed up eventually. Pretty interesting how SP's claim worked out for him (incredibly well, although Axxle's death should really have made him the lynch).

[ashersky]

Anyway, on a last note, I wanted to say I enjoyed my first Mafia game. Thanks to Mail-mi and Andrewis for modding. I really enjoyed this setup and think it made for an interesting dynamic. Obviously, this was my first game, so I would not know any better.

Just let me know when the next mafia sign-up is.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11174.0

Also, Teproc should be opening an asher9++ setup soon.

[A Drowned Kernel]

So what's the word on this counting as "normal"? I felt especially bad for Voltaire here, a 1-person scum kill without a full night kill is rough.

[Robz888]

So what's the word on this counting as "normal"? I felt especially bad for Voltaire here, a 1-person scum kill without a full night kill is rough.

We've had this argument before, the last time Greater Idea mafia variants were run. This game counts, because Mafia IX and XVIII counted.

I'm not sure we should run this setup again as a "Normal" setup, however.

[yuma]

So what's the word on this counting as "normal"? I felt especially bad for Voltaire here, a 1-person scum kill without a full night kill is rough.

We've had this argument before, the last time Greater Idea mafia variants were run. This game counts, because Mafia IX and XVIII counted.

I'm not sure we should run this setup again as a "Normal" setup, however.

I would argue that this one is even more normal than cayvie's games as her games utilized "hidden" super strong power roles. This is a weird game, but it is fully open (if not perfectly balanced).  I would be ok with running this again as a "normal" game, but only with the clarification before hand that it doesn't guarantee balance in a normal way and just not run it too often. Mostly because where else does this fit in our system. It isn't RMM. It isn't bastard. It is weird, but it is more or less normal.

I am interested in wondering what the first rolled setup looked like... must have been imbalanced?

[Twistedarcher]

1. Twistedarcher--keep spy (cop), discard scrying pool
2. Voltaire--keep dame anna (werewolf godfather), discard fortress
3. Robz888--keep urchin (underdog), discard chancellor
4. Ichimaru Gin--keep familiar (werewolf), discard lighthouse
5. Axxle--keep saboteur (cult one-shot goomaker), discard fortune teller
6. Teproc--keep chapel (lover), discard goons
7. Witherweaver--keep survivors (survivor), discard familiar
8. scott_pilgrim--keep sir michael (mafia godfather), discard remake
9. Beyond Awesome--keep kings court (1-shot kingmaker), discard familiar
10. jotheonah--keep Duchess (1-shot nymphomaniac), discard develop
11. XerxesPraelor--keep catacombs (1-shot bp werewolf), discard envoy.
12. A Drowned Kernel--keep band of misfits (mason), discard militia
13. EgorK--keep mountebank (mafia seer), discard highway
14. chairs--keep coppersmith (vanilla townie), discard JOAT
15. xeiron--keep sage (Enabler), discard develop
16. Nik--keep tactician (alien silencer), discard feast

[Axxle]

GOO MAKER! NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

I love me some black goo.

[Robz888]

So what's the word on this counting as "normal"? I felt especially bad for Voltaire here, a 1-person scum kill without a full night kill is rough.

We've had this argument before, the last time Greater Idea mafia variants were run. This game counts, because Mafia IX and XVIII counted.

I'm not sure we should run this setup again as a "Normal" setup, however.

I would argue that this one is even more normal than cayvie's games as her games utilized "hidden" super strong power roles. This is a weird game, but it is fully open (if not perfectly balanced).  I would be ok with running this again as a "normal" game, but only with the clarification before hand that it doesn't guarantee balance in a normal way and just not run it too often. Mostly because where else does this fit in our system. It isn't RMM. It isn't bastard. It is weird, but it is more or less normal.

I am interested in wondering what the first rolled setup looked like... must have been imbalanced?

That's true, this game wasn't nearly as zany as the cayvie games. As long as we don't do this setup too often, that's fine, too.

[jotheonah]

it's over! I missed an entire day, maybe two.

[Joseph2302]

I'm trying to do the stats for this game, looks to me like no MVP was announced? Could someone please confirm MVP for this game?

[xeiron]

I'm trying to do the stats for this game, looks to me like no MVP was announced? Could someone please confirm MVP for this game?

I did not follow the game that close after I died, but I believe MVP should go to scott_pilgrim for that last claim that got XP lynched.