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[Mean Mr Mustard]

<b>Oasis/Menagerie</b>

This one is pretty self-explanatory.  Menagerie has issues both in the beginning of a match, when there are so many Copper, and also later once the deck starts greening.  Oasis is a great cure for both.  Plus, it adds some economy to an engine that doesn't want more than one of any single piece of treasure.  The main issue with this combo is the opportunity lost with buying too many $3 cards, and also that it doesn't fully get around the need to trash.  But, as with most engines, a +buy is usually required in order to justify putting together an intricate engine, and once the single Gold is bought that $6 is not as all-important and can be used to purchase two engine parts.

<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111203-224344-71d3c6a9.html>Here is a sample game</a>.  I won the Ambassador and Familiar races with the help of this combo, and I was able to continually get good draws long after multiple Provinces were added to my deck.

<b>Shanty Town/Spice Merchant</b>

This is not a combo that I can point to and say, "Buy these two cards and ride them to victory!"  Rather, it is a combo that you open with and use to cycle and trash early and often, setting up a strong mid and end game.  Other components are clearly required, especially treasure.  If the deck that this combo appears in has no terminal action, the Shanty Town becomes a virtual Laboratory, which is a great $3 opener.  The "Lab" effect of Spice Merchant is relatively weak when it is used, but it improves all later hands <i>so long as ample treasure is added in a timely manner.</i>  Combined, two seemingly weak effects create a surprisingly strong environment to improve, distill and cycle a deck.

After I had <a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111202-213043-757373e9.html>discovered this combo</a>, I went into solitaire mode to sample it, and I have found that it is pretty good with big money at getting to four Provinces by turn 14, and with some Kingdom support it can improve even more.

<b>Hunting Party/Saboteur</b>

In the last several months I have seen this <a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110911-164546-3211b316.html>devastating combo</a> in action a few times, and have been on both sides of it, and I have yet to see it fail.  DG <a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111110-091601-625cc79e.html>used it against me</a> in tournament play to win our set, and I <a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111201-115157-cfbbccac.html>used it a few days ago</a> with the same result.  I see people misplay or ignore HP often, so as a tip for you youngsters I'll spell it out:  Keep it simple.  Keep the number of unique cards in the deck as low as possible, avoid at all cost cards that draw, buy only one strong terminal, and muster as many HPs as you can as quickly you can.  This takes some luck as well as skill, as bad draws in the first five or seven turns can doom this engine.  One Gold is usually enough, and extra Silver buys early usually do not harm this engine too much.

Saboteur is great if you can play it enough to really put a dent in the opponent's purchases, otherwise it is pathetic.  HP makes it happen a lot.

[Geronimoo]

Shanty Town/Spice Merchant isn't really viable for big money games. Your first two buys aren't money, then you trash more money which isn't important in a money game (Coppers are fine). And since Shanty Town is really not that great in an engine I doubt I'd ever find a board where this is going to be good.

[brokoli]

Oasis - Menagerie is pretty good, like Menagerie - Hamlet.
Menagerie is the strongest 3$ card in the game, IMO.

Hunting Party - Saboteur seems also great.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

After I had <a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111202-213043-757373e9.html>discovered this combo</a>, I went into solitaire mode to sample it, and I have found that it is pretty good with big money at getting to four Provinces by turn 14, and with some Kingdom support it can improve even more.

I stand by my post.

[jonts26]

Not one of your combos but something I've wondered about relating to your first sample game.

When both Ambassador and Familiar are present, what's the best opening? Potion/Amb will be ridiculous if you can manage to buy a familiar and return two cards in turns 3/4 but if you fail to do that you've basically just gimped your economy. Personally, I've just opened amb/silver with the aim of getting the potion a little later, but I'm not sure if that's actually the percentage play.

[WanderingWinder]

Not one of your combos but something I've wondered about relating to your first sample game.

When both Ambassador and Familiar are present, what's the best opening? Potion/Amb will be ridiculous if you can manage to buy a familiar and return two cards in turns 3/4 but if you fail to do that you've basically just gimped your economy. Personally, I've just opened amb/silver with the aim of getting the potion a little later, but I'm not sure if that's actually the percentage play.

I assume you want to basically ignore the familiar here, at least for a long time, unless your opponent isn't going for ambassador at all. And you certainly don't want to open potion/amb for familiars alone; it's very unlikely to get you a good second reshuffle, and you can very easily snowball downwards.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

Estates also can disrupt $3P, which can quickly snowball.  Now, Winder is probably right in that Potion/Amb is not a good opener.  I do not know this, and I have tried this opening before, for example: <a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111013-143854-e1c8830d.html> a win</a>/<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110621-224042-0324a41d.html>a win</a>/<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110925-193707-d0e3acb5.html>a win</a>/<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110808-054905-b5d90bac.html>a win</a>/<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111028-215245-e340660c.html>a win</a>.  Disclaimer: I didn't study these links, just did a quick search and stopped after finding five games.  But it seems to me that 6/6 ain't awful, especially when you figure the significant odds that a Familiar strategy will implode with a Potion/Silver.  This is not a scientific argument, I realize.

Edit: after further study I find I am 9/9 with this opener, and in the majority of these games my opponent ended up with all of the curses.

[greatexpectations]

i just won a messy sea hag game with oasis/menagerie.  not sure i would have noticed the combo if not for this post.  much appreciated.

[chwhite]

Estates also can disrupt $3P, which can quickly snowball.  Now, Winder is probably right in that Potion/Amb is not a good opener.  I do not know this, and I have tried this opening before, for example: <a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111013-143854-e1c8830d.html> a win</a>/<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110621-224042-0324a41d.html>a win</a>/<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110925-193707-d0e3acb5.html>a win</a>/<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110808-054905-b5d90bac.html>a win</a>/<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111028-215245-e340660c.html>a win</a>.  Disclaimer: I didn't study these links, just did a quick search and stopped after finding five games.  But it seems to me that 6/6 ain't awful, especially when you figure the significant odds that a Familiar strategy will implode with a Potion/Silver.  This is not a scientific argument, I realize.

Edit: after further study I find I am 9/9 with this opener, and in the majority of these games my opponent ended up with all of the curses.

I love Potion/Ambassador in Apothecary games.

[jonts26]

Yes, Potion/Amb opening is ranked pretty high on councilroom. I suspect this is the primary reason. Also university with good $5s.

[quasi]

It seems that most people are of the opinion that opening with a spice merchant is a strong move.  Is this the case?  If your priority is to get to a 5 money hand by the second shuffle, spice merchant doesn't really help you out there, right?  I've been leaning towards deferring its purchase to turns 3 or 4 after opening something like double silver etc. 

[mischiefmaker]

I don't really like opening with Spice Merchant, unless I'm going for some kind of moneyless engine. And even then, I'm wary, since most engines have at least one key $5 component, and as you point out, opening with it doesn't really make it easier to get to $5.

Caveat: my record with Spice Merchant is abysmal (10th worst win rate given available, -0.85 with, -0.47 without), so maybe do the opposite of what I do.

[guided]

Spice Merchant strikes me as neither a particularly strong opening nor a particularly weak one. It's not that likely to get you to $5 (which is IMO its main flaw as an opener), but the the combination of cycling and trashing early is useful. Alongside a good $3 terminal action it's probably pretty good. Spice Merchant/Silver certainly doesn't wow me though.

[DG]

I'd say that the spice merchant is a well designed action card. It might look average at times but it can be a perfect tool or a complete waste so you've certainly got to pick the right time to buy it. Shanty town/spice merchant could work but I'm guessing that other 3 cost action cards can replace the shanty town. I'd recommend warehouse/spice merchant.

As for the ambassador/potion going for familiar - well I think Mr Mustard got his final deck in that game pretty much perfect but he might have got there faster with a better opening. Save ambassador/potion for the apothecary, university, scrying pool and transmute decks.

[WanderingWinder]

Estates also can disrupt $3P, which can quickly snowball.  Now, Winder is probably right in that Potion/Amb is not a good opener.  I do not know this, and I have tried this opening before, for example: <a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111013-143854-e1c8830d.html> a win</a>/<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110621-224042-0324a41d.html>a win</a>/<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110925-193707-d0e3acb5.html>a win</a>/<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110808-054905-b5d90bac.html>a win</a>/<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111028-215245-e340660c.html>a win</a>.  Disclaimer: I didn't study these links, just did a quick search and stopped after finding five games.  But it seems to me that 6/6 ain't awful, especially when you figure the significant odds that a Familiar strategy will implode with a Potion/Silver.  This is not a scientific argument, I realize.

Edit: after further study I find I am 9/9 with this opener, and in the majority of these games my opponent ended up with all of the curses.

Yeah, glancing at the logs you provide does not make me change my mind one bit. 4/6 your opponent doesn't open amb. Well, yeah, I expect they'll lose there, and the familiar might help you too. I'd probably still open amb/silver or amb/amb, and only later pick up the potion, but it doesn't seem all that bad to me if your opponent is ignoring ambassador... in which case there's a decent chance you're winning anyway. The other two have your opponent opening talisman/ambassador and flooding himself with silver... not crazy in general, but he isn't going to win the deck size war, and he's asking to get cursed, therefore. Last one was a mirror amb/potion against amb/potion where you got a second amb and he didn't (I think; might be that there was some amb returned at some point). Also not great evidence I don't think.
To reiterate, my claim is that it's a bad opening if your opponent is getting ambasador, and the ONLY reason for a potion is familiar. If you're getting it for apothecary, then by all means. Univ or especially scrying pool, yes. Familiar and your opp is ignoring, well I think I'd prefer silver to potion, but you know, it's okay.

As for spice merchant. I think it's a good opener IF a) you're really gonna need the +buy somewhere or b) you need to clear out those coppers and fast. Basically I see it as just taking all the coppers out of my deck slowly over time and eventually becoming a dead card in most games, which isn't really worth it. But it's decently good for big-time combos, particularly treasure-light ones, especially those that draw your whole deck, where you should be buying a copper every turn with that +buy in order to give it that extra fuel to keep it running.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

Hmmm. I see your point.

My Ambassador play is usually tailored to my opponent's Ambassador play;  I will buy two if my opponent buys at least one.  In all these instances I must have felt confident that I could outplay my opponent based on his opening buys and took the risk to double-whammy him.  This may be a bit of hubris on my part, but my Ambassador play is generally one of the sounder aspects of my game.  I know how to play them, and I know how to play Minions.  I am in my element with these cards.  Familiar, however, is a card that scares the daylights out of me because it is so damn easy to make the right decisions and get hosed by bad luck.  But hell man, the surest way to lose is to take ten curses and I always feel the need to force that issue even though I can't stand to do it.

[rod-]

I feel just as upset by luck in ambassador games as by familiar games ; it's not significantly less likely that you get hosed by turn order, ambassador collision, or 11th-12th card sadness than getting hosed by CCPEE.  Once you're looking at a 11 card opponent deck vs your 15, you take a full turn extra per shuffle and are likely choking on estates/coppers/desperately trying to ambassador things away while your opponent calmly ambassadors back everything you send & builds a deck.

[ackack]

I feel just as upset by luck in ambassador games as by familiar games ; it's not significantly less likely that you get hosed by turn order, ambassador collision, or 11th-12th card sadness than getting hosed by CCPEE.  Once you're looking at a 11 card opponent deck vs your 15, you take a full turn extra per shuffle and are likely choking on estates/coppers/desperately trying to ambassador things away while your opponent calmly ambassadors back everything you send & builds a deck.

Yeah, I'd agree with this.

I think totally neglecting Familiar on Ambassador boards is a mistake; I remember trying that a long time ago and found that it gets whomped by an opponent with both cards. Order of operations is an interesting question.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

I would agree too, with the stipulation that Ambassador is more of a skill-based card than Familiar.

[Geronimoo]

Simulations indicate that Amb/Amb (not going for Familiar at all) is slightly better than Potion/Amb. But that's the simple case with just money. The Amb/Amb player will mostly get his economy on the way very quickly while the Familiar player tries to catch up (which he very often will). Luck will play a large roll in this matchup: colliding Ambassadors, getting 2 Curses together with Amb and of course the Familiar player hitting $2P...

[WanderingWinder]

Simulations indicate that Amb/Amb (not going for Familiar at all) is slightly better than Potion/Amb. But that's the simple case with just money. The Amb/Amb player will mostly get his economy on the way very quickly while the Familiar player tries to catch up (which he very often will). Luck will play a large roll in this matchup: colliding Ambassadors, getting 2 Curses together with Amb and of course the Familiar player hitting $2P...

But also the sim doesn't optimally ambassador stuff away, whereas it's much closer to playing familiar correctly.

[Jorbles]

Simulations indicate that Amb/Amb (not going for Familiar at all) is slightly better than Potion/Amb. But that's the simple case with just money. The Amb/Amb player will mostly get his economy on the way very quickly while the Familiar player tries to catch up (which he very often will). Luck will play a large roll in this matchup: colliding Ambassadors, getting 2 Curses together with Amb and of course the Familiar player hitting $2P...

But also the sim doesn't optimally ambassador stuff away, whereas it's much closer to playing familiar correctly.

If that's the case then double Amb is actually probably much stronger than Familiar based on Geronimoo's simulation.

[DG]

Unfortunately the simulator won't tell us if ambassador/oasis is any good since it won't get the right discard with ambassador and oasis in hand.

[Toskk]

After I had <a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111202-213043-757373e9.html>discovered this combo</a>, I went into solitaire mode to sample it, and I have found that it is pretty good with big money at getting to four Provinces by turn 14, and with some Kingdom support it can improve even more.

Out of curiousity, what purchase priority are you using to come up with an average of four Provinces by turn 14 with nothing but Spice Merchant and Shanty Towns? I've now run dozens of solitaire games using it, and show an average of more like 17 turns to 4 Provinces (or only borderline better than just Big Money). Have you plugged it into a simulator? I'm not saying it can't be a good combo when combined with more-effective cost 5 cards.. just it doesn't feel turn-14-strong alone to me..

[dondon151]

I've been getting around 14-16 turns to 4 Provinces. I'm not sure which of Shanty Town / Silver, Spice Merchant / Silver, or Shanty Town / Spice Merchant is superior, but in whatever case I delay getting a second Spice Merchant until the after maybe the 3rd reshuffle to avoid screwing over my economy.

If I open Shanty Town / Spice Merchant, and I play a Shanty Town on turns 3 or 4, I'll play Spice Merchant for +$2 instead so I can get a second Silver into my deck before the reshuffle.