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Author Topic: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion  (Read 40894 times)

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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #75 on: May 08, 2014, 03:47:37 pm »
+1

I know Titandrake has done this on some of his streams, but I don't know of a way to do it without me being able to see the chat while I play, which is a no-no for tournament matches.

I think it's better for people to be able to speak freely about the game, that is. For smaller streams or other circumstances I understand being able to see the chat during the game.
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #76 on: May 08, 2014, 04:34:09 pm »
+1

I know Titandrake has done this on some of his streams, but I don't know of a way to do it without me being able to see the chat while I play, which is a no-no for tournament matches.

I think it's better for people to be able to speak freely about the game, that is. For smaller streams or other circumstances I understand being able to see the chat during the game.

I love this community.  Even with the ability to have the collective knowledge of other people watching honesty is choosen.  Way to be an awesome example of sportsmanship Adam.
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #77 on: May 08, 2014, 04:43:12 pm »
+2

I know Titandrake has done this on some of his streams, but I don't know of a way to do it without me being able to see the chat while I play, which is a no-no for tournament matches.

I think it's better for people to be able to speak freely about the game, that is. For smaller streams or other circumstances I understand being able to see the chat during the game.

My stream setup is:

Maximized Firefox for Dominion, with the image cropped to only show the play area
A maximized IRC client right behind it. If the window is minimized, it doesn't get redrawn, so you have to cover it up with another window. I crop this window down to only the bottom section of the screen, so it sees the newer messages.

This works for tournaments, but for more casual streams where you want to read chat, it can get pretty annoying to jump between the two windows unless you have a dual-monitor setup. Dominion really needs all the space it can get, so I'm not sure how to deal with that.
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #78 on: May 08, 2014, 04:46:50 pm »
0

I know Titandrake has done this on some of his streams, but I don't know of a way to do it without me being able to see the chat while I play, which is a no-no for tournament matches.

I think it's better for people to be able to speak freely about the game, that is. For smaller streams or other circumstances I understand being able to see the chat during the game.

My stream setup is:

Maximized Firefox for Dominion, with the image cropped to only show the play area
A maximized IRC client right behind it. If the window is minimized, it doesn't get redrawn, so you have to cover it up with another window. I crop this window down to only the bottom section of the screen, so it sees the newer messages.

This works for tournaments, but for more casual streams where you want to read chat, it can get pretty annoying to jump between the two windows unless you have a dual-monitor setup. Dominion really needs all the space it can get, so I'm not sure how to deal with that.

Two computers!  (that would be my plan anyway, but I happen to have 4)
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #79 on: May 08, 2014, 04:55:52 pm »
0

It's really cool how so many of you were able to stream your matches. It inspired me to get a headset that has low enough sensitivity to only hear my voice. Outside distraction was the main deterrent for not streaming my matches live. As RTT said, simply recording games isn't cool anymore.
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #80 on: May 08, 2014, 07:40:43 pm »
+1

Adam, you are awesome! Now you know.
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #81 on: May 09, 2014, 03:17:31 pm »
+8

jog defeats michaeljb 3-0

1. https://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140509/log.50a6c1abe4b03214bb7822e9.1399651597021.txt
Alchemist, Bureaucrat,  Ill-Gotten Gains, Marauder, Pillage, Possession, Potion, Ruins,  Soothsayer, Spice Merchant, Wandering Minstrel, Oracle

Slog with marauders, soothsayers, and IGGs.  I go for soothsayer early while he goes for marauders.  My opening was spice merchant/silver while his was marauder/silver.  I'm not sure if it was right, but my thinking with the spice merchant was to increase cycling to play soothsayers more often.  I was able to province twice while his draws only let him get one. 

2. https://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140509/log.50a6c1abe4b03214bb7822e9.1399652398563.txt
Adventurer, Embassy,  Explorer, Familiar, Hoard, Horn of Plenty, Mining Village, Potion, Province, Trading Post, Watchtower, Beggar

Horn of plenty game.  There is good filtering and some draw with embassy, villages, and light trashing, so HOP megaturn is possible.  Familiars can get in the way of this plan, but watchtowers can counter these.  We both open silver/watchtower.  I pick up a potion on turn 3 for familiars while he concentrates picking up as many villages, embassies, and HOPs as possible.  On turn 15 I am finally able to play my familiars without having the curses blocked by watchtowers.  This slows him down and helps to empty piles.  I'm able to end it the next turn by using HOPs to get curses  to empty piles.  If the draws had been a little different in this one, it could have easily gone the other way. 

3. https://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140509/log.50a6c1abe4b03214bb7822e9.1399653310367.txt
Alchemist, Black Market, Colony,  Nobles, Peddler, Platinum, Potion, Province, Ruins, Taxman, Throne Room, Trade Route, Trading Post, Upgrade, Vagrant

Colony game so it's more likely alchemists are good.  I open black market/potion while he opens black market/taxman.  My deck comes together, with the help of good draws, very quickly.  It ends on piles in 15 turns. 


 
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #82 on: May 09, 2014, 05:27:29 pm »
+1

Congratulation! This will be a great final.

Would be a really nice if someone could video it (even without sound or direct streaming). But well, whatever happens is fine. I really like Gokodom, witnessing the best of Dominion.
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #83 on: May 10, 2014, 10:55:23 pm »
+1

EDIT: After reading the chat, it turns out I probably could have piled Estates to win earlier. I completely missed this!

I said this a lot in the chat, quite vehemently, but the specific thing I described would not have worked, you would have been $2 short. So I was just full of shit, though I think there probably was a way to 3 pile. I never figured out the specific way though because the logs don't track the trash and I don't want to count everything up to reconstruct the game state. It's not as simple as I made it sound in the chat. It's also tougher because AI still had a couple Estates.

I was equally certain that Adam had the 3-pile win during the game, but probably for different reasons, given that I couldn't actually see his hand. ;)

It turns out that there is indeed a way to 3-pile from the point shown in the screenshot below, but it's harder than I'd thought.  I have two Estates and Adam has no VP yet:

Edit: Argh! I just tried my approach with actual cards and it doesn't actually work!  Someone call that Chameleon guy!



Also, I finally added analysis to my match report.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 11:49:11 pm by ragingduckd »
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #84 on: May 10, 2014, 11:58:38 pm »
+1

EDIT: After reading the chat, it turns out I probably could have piled Estates to win earlier. I completely missed this!

I said this a lot in the chat, quite vehemently, but the specific thing I described would not have worked, you would have been $2 short. So I was just full of shit, though I think there probably was a way to 3 pile. I never figured out the specific way though because the logs don't track the trash and I don't want to count everything up to reconstruct the game state. It's not as simple as I made it sound in the chat. It's also tougher because AI still had a couple Estates.
[puzzle]

Hm, everything I try runs into issues where you might not draw the right card, and lose out on a card of cycling, which then makes things not work out. I think it's possible to get a win with some probability, but I can't find a guarantee.

Edit: Nevermind, can't find a win. Here's my best result so far (which gets a win if AI has no Estates).


Upgrade Upgrade->BV gaining Salv (1 Upgrade, 1 WV in hand. BV, Salv in discard)
Play WV (draw one of BV,Salv)
Upgrade Silver->WV (draw the other, one WV in discard but not relevant)
Salvager BV. Have $6 + $4 + $6 = $16 and 11 buys.

At this point, there is 1 BV and 3 WV left. So, you can buy BV (gain WV), and the two WV, and have enough to buy an Estate. Alternatively you can piledrive Estates, but then you still have a BV left and you probably lose.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 12:22:21 am by Titandrake »
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SCSN

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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #85 on: May 11, 2014, 08:08:11 am »
+2

iirc Adam's last Margrave drew only 2 cards, with a subsequent Upgrade play drawing nothing, so the Margrave was effectively a Market Square. Not playing the Margrave but instead Upgrading it (drawing your 2nd last card) into Border Village-Estate, then playing a 2nd Upgrade (drawing your "last" card) to Upgrade your 3rd Upgrade into the last Border Village and another Estate would leave two piles empty with 6 Estates left. You now have $12 left in hand and I'm pretty sure there were enough buys to end it.
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #86 on: May 11, 2014, 08:15:21 am »
+2

EDIT: After reading the chat, it turns out I probably could have piled Estates to win earlier. I completely missed this!

I said this a lot in the chat, quite vehemently, but the specific thing I described would not have worked, you would have been $2 short. So I was just full of shit, though I think there probably was a way to 3 pile. I never figured out the specific way though because the logs don't track the trash and I don't want to count everything up to reconstruct the game state. It's not as simple as I made it sound in the chat. It's also tougher because AI still had a couple Estates.
[puzzle]




Hm, everything I try runs into issues where you might not draw the right card, and lose out on a card of cycling, which then makes things not work out. I think it's possible to get a win with some probability, but I can't find a guarantee.

Edit: Nevermind, can't find a win. Here's my best result so far (which gets a win if AI has no Estates).


Upgrade Upgrade->BV gaining Salv (1 Upgrade, 1 WV in hand. BV, Salv in discard)
Play WV (draw one of BV,Salv)
Upgrade Silver->WV (draw the other, one WV in discard but not relevant)
Salvager BV. Have $6 + $4 + $6 = $16 and 11 buys.

At this point, there is 1 BV and 3 WV left. So, you can buy BV (gain WV), and the two WV, and have enough to buy an Estate. Alternatively you can piledrive Estates, but then you still have a BV left and you probably lose.


That is actually what i wanted to suggest when i thought of a forced 3- pile win there. Didn't have in mind that Andrew still had 2 Estates left.

But i think i found a slightly different 3 pile win for that turn here.


Upgrade Upgrade into BV Salvager before the last Margrave is played (yes he already had 2 in hand)
Here you trigger a shuffle so now you have 2 of the cards which the Margrave drew for adam  in the draw pile and BV Salvager in the discard pile.
Now play Margrave and draw those two plus BV or Salvager (trigger shuffle again). Play Upgrade draw the remaining card trashing Workersvillage gaining Duchy. Salvage the BV. Now you have 6(salvage)+6(silver)+6(copper)= 18 Coins
buy BV gaining WW and buy 3 WW for the pile out. Winning by 1 VP


Edit: ok i see SCSN already posted something in this direction while i was writing this. But no the last Margrave actually drew 3 cards! (Silver,Silver, Ugrade) and only the one Ugrade wasted a draw.

Your solution will still work though as you also have another WW left in hand to draw the last card that you need.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 08:38:40 am by MarkowKette »
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ragingduckd

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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #87 on: May 11, 2014, 09:23:55 pm »
0

iirc Adam's last Margrave drew only 2 cards, with a subsequent Upgrade play drawing nothing, so the Margrave was effectively a Market Square. Not playing the Margrave but instead Upgrading it (drawing your 2nd last card) into Border Village-Estate, then playing a 2nd Upgrade (drawing your "last" card) to Upgrade your 3rd Upgrade into the last Border Village and another Estate would leave two piles empty with 6 Estates left. You now have $12 left in hand and I'm pretty sure there were enough buys to end it.

http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140507/log.5085f5130cf270038ff92212.1399517084891.txt#1-14

Adam's last Margrave drew his last 3 cards: Upgrade, Silver, Silver.  So if you Upgrade the Margrave and then play the second Upgrade, you won't necessarily draw that last Upgrade.  [Edit: Nevermind, MarkowKette (and SCSN) are correct).]

There were 8 buys at that point, btw, so yes plenty.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 07:08:57 pm by ragingduckd »
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c4master

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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #88 on: May 12, 2014, 10:44:52 am »
0

If there's any board you could forego Ambassador, your game 6 must have been this. ;)

I would have been tempted to open Loan/Market Square. If Adam then decided to return only Estates I would pick up Develop, otherwise one Potion and then a lot more Market Squares.

I also wonder if a Young Witch on game one would have been successful for Adam. At least it would have meant not to get all the curses for him, which seems to be good enough. Once you bought the Young Witch, the game was basically over.

On game 3, did those Ruins actually help your Rats? Had it been better to open Militia?
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #89 on: May 12, 2014, 10:53:30 am »
0

On game 3, did those Ruins actually help your Rats? Had it been better to open Militia?

Looking back, yeah the Marauder certainly didn't help my situation, but I was under the impression that Procession/Rats is not an effective way of accomplishing anything and I thought a good player like AI wouldn't go for it.

It's unclear whether or not Procession/Rats is a good thing, at least it's unclear to me still.
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Donald X.

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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #90 on: May 12, 2014, 04:19:33 pm »
+2

Looking back, yeah the Marauder certainly didn't help my situation, but I was under the impression that Procession/Rats is not an effective way of accomplishing anything and I thought a good player like AI wouldn't go for it.

It's unclear whether or not Procession/Rats is a good thing, at least it's unclear to me still.
I wouldn't say that Procession/Rats is a thing, but Procession/Fortress is obv. strong, and Rats/Fortress is a thing sometimes, and if you have all three you will be Processioning some Rats.
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #91 on: May 13, 2014, 12:23:10 am »
+1

Procession/Fortress. +2 cards, +4 actions, gain a 5, keep the Fortress in hand. This is why I love Dark Ages.
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #92 on: May 13, 2014, 12:52:36 pm »
+1

As a huge rats fan, I loved seeing the Adam H vs. AI game 3.

I really enjoyed Adam's wonder at how many rats AI had in his deck and yet AI's engine still kept moving.

I'm sure there was a decent amount of luck in this game, but there was a lot of skill too and ... the amazing potential of rats!!!

(Thanks for sharing the videos.)
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #93 on: May 13, 2014, 07:30:18 pm »
0

Any word on when the medal matches are taking place?
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #94 on: May 13, 2014, 08:18:41 pm »
0

Any word on when the medal matches are taking place?

None that I know of.  Those players in the medal matches also need to coordinate with whoever was doing the kingdom builder competition, which was... who again?  My brain is going.
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #95 on: May 13, 2014, 08:24:42 pm »
0

Any word on when the medal matches are taking place?

It sounds like everyone would be available tomorrow evening (Wednesday) at 6PM Pacific (9PM Eastern) US time, and at least jog and I are available at the same time on Thursday or on the weekend.

But we're not really clear on whether both matches should take place at the same time.  Are both matches using the winners from the kingdom design contest?  Because then I see the logic of having both matches at the same time, but it also means that people couldn't watch both live.

Kirian, aren't you the tournament director?  Direct us! :P
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #96 on: May 13, 2014, 08:32:23 pm »
0

Any word on when the medal matches are taking place?

It sounds like everyone would be available tomorrow evening (Wednesday) at 6PM Pacific (9PM Eastern) US time, and at least jog and I are available at the same time on Thursday or on the weekend.

But we're not really clear on whether both matches should take place at the same time.  Are both matches using the winners from the kingdom design contest?  Because then I see the logic of having both matches at the same time, but it also means that people couldn't watch both live.

Kirian, aren't you the tournament director?  Direct us! :P

I guess that question actually ends up directed at the bronze players.  Do you guys want to play at the same time so as to remain unspoiled?

AI, are you implying with this that you're going to cast this?
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #97 on: May 13, 2014, 08:43:01 pm »
+7

Any word on when the medal matches are taking place?

It sounds like everyone would be available tomorrow evening (Wednesday) at 6PM Pacific (9PM Eastern) US time, and at least jog and I are available at the same time on Thursday or on the weekend.

But we're not really clear on whether both matches should take place at the same time.  Are both matches using the winners from the kingdom design contest?  Because then I see the logic of having both matches at the same time, but it also means that people couldn't watch both live.

Kirian, aren't you the tournament director?  Direct us! :P

I guess that question actually ends up directed at the bronze players.  Do you guys want to play at the same time so as to remain unspoiled?

AI, are you implying with this that you're going to cast this?

Ah.  I never actually said that, did I?  Yes, I will stream my match with jog.  I'm not sure whether I'll be able to rig it to record with commentary, but I will try.
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #98 on: May 13, 2014, 09:27:10 pm »
+1

Any word on when the medal matches are taking place?

It sounds like everyone would be available tomorrow evening (Wednesday) at 6PM Pacific (9PM Eastern) US time, and at least jog and I are available at the same time on Thursday or on the weekend.

But we're not really clear on whether both matches should take place at the same time.  Are both matches using the winners from the kingdom design contest?  Because then I see the logic of having both matches at the same time, but it also means that people couldn't watch both live.

Kirian, aren't you the tournament director?  Direct us! :P

I guess that question actually ends up directed at the bronze players.  Do you guys want to play at the same time so as to remain unspoiled?

AI, are you implying with this that you're going to cast this?

Ah.  I never actually said that, did I?  Yes, I will stream my match with jog.  I'm not sure whether I'll be able to rig it to record with commentary, but I will try.

If you're streaming, then I wouldn't want to stream against you -- I'd rather everybody watch your match. I can stay with my hole in the ground to remain unspoiled if you'd prefer to play your match and have us do our later...
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Re: GokoDom III: Playoff Round Results and Discussion
« Reply #99 on: May 13, 2014, 09:32:10 pm »
+1

Are there enough sets in the design challenge so that we both could use unique kingdoms?  Maybe have our match tomorrow and then the other match immediately after or on Thursday? 
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