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Author Topic: Top 10 opening blunders  (Read 10782 times)

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terminalCopper

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Top 10 opening blunders
« on: April 19, 2014, 09:09:29 am »
+8

This is a 100% subjective list of unpleasant situations I encountered due to frouzy board analysis before choosing my opening. I'm not talking about subtle suboptimalities, but obvious idiocies.
I am also aware that stronger players might never do these things, while weaker players will often do other terrific stuff. Feedback is very welcome, and I'd be happy to see your personal list of bad mistakes :)


10) Where did he get these goons?

Ask the young witch or look at the second page.

9) I got all sorts of engine components ... why can't I draw my deck?

A village without +card, combined with a two-card-drawer, will never lead to a big hand, no matter how many you assemble. That also holds for hamlets and courtyards.

8 ) I managed to draw my deck, yeah. But where's the village for my three terminals?

Probably, one should think about it before taking that duchess with 5-2.

7) I'll go Big Money. I don't see any counter ... oops.

Beginners might overlook the problems BM faces, when there is a perpetual handsize attack. Stronger players will eventually ignore the danger coming from mediocre to bad cards, e.g. Noble Brigand, Knights or Pillage.

6) Reactions are generally weak.

Mostly, yes. This is why it's easy to miss strong openings with moat or trader.

5) You buy WHAT? That's insane.

"What do you want to do with all those hermits and native villages? And how did you get to level 40 with openings like beggar or woodcutter?"

Sometimes, opponents just play poorly. But in many situations, it's better to admit right from the start that you haven't seen their combo.

4) ... and why don't you care about those ruins and coppers I give to you?!

In general, junk attacks are strong. And so it might be, that you overestimate a looter, running into oppenents death cards, vineyards or scrying pools. Spamming coppers is questionable as well, if there are gardens, strong slogs, apothecaries, or even counting house.

3) Ah, a shelters game. Oh, many nice cards ...  let's take a minute to analyse this board ...

... which is a good idea, unless you forget about shelters - and open with baron. Even ambassador is occasionally a bad choice because of shelters.

2) Now that I built my engine ... where's that f*$&ing +buy?

Hopefully, your engine can work without it. But if you need these double province moves to catch up, and there is not even an abandoned market you can buy for $16, you're in trouble.

1) Oooh ... there's also colonies!

It's really surprising how many players, including myself, repeatedly fall for this one.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 03:41:17 am by terminalCopper »
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assemble_me

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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2014, 06:01:22 am »
+3

I'm missing my favorites:

Curses and Ruins are two piles...

and if both of them are gone, the game ends soon, even if you can't see one of them at the first page.
In this game I try to clean my deck while my opponent scrambles for points. He then wins by piling Crossroads. http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140415/log.50e7525ee4b0b5b74140a6c0.1397598832700.txt.


First I play my Chapel and then I play... oh what happened now?

Classic misclick because of forgetting "done". Annoying when playing with hamlet and discarting your powerful $5 for a buy, even worse when you trash it with your Chapel... like I did on turn 5 here http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140404/log.50e7525ee4b0b5b74140a6c0.1396648601406.txt


I can't count

I really struggle when it comes to deck tracking. I can often count points (when there is no Alt-VP), but not always, as it appears.
In this game, in my last turn I have $12 and two buys, but I only buy Province and no kicker Estate. My opponent buys the last Province on his turn and the game ends in a draw http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140416/log.50e7525ee4b0b5b74140a6c0.1397671370143.txt
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 10:00:12 am by assemble_me »
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Davio

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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2014, 06:14:00 am »
+2

I've opened with a Village many times during my "career" while I was going through my no-Silver phase.

And I've fought with the UI many times, clicking "end actions" with Plaza not so long ago when I thought I was still choosing whether or not to discard a Copper. It's just awful that they put the buttons in the same place. Accidental double clicks lead to wasted turns.
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Titandrake

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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2014, 06:22:45 am »
0

Opening a village after understanding the concepts behind Big Money and winning is a rite of passage for engine building.

Edit: Actually, opening a village after understanding the opportunity cost of doing so and losing is also a rite of passage.

Anyway, I've had a lot of issues with not counting # of empty piles correctly. I'm getting better, but I keep thinking that there are 1 or 2 more empty piles than there really are and I have to double check every turn to make sure.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 06:25:38 am by Titandrake »
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terminalCopper

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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2014, 08:06:05 am »
+1

I'm missing my favorites:

Curses and Ruins are two piles...

and if both of them are gone, the game ends soon, even if you can't see one of them at the first page.
In this game I try to clean my deck while my opponent scrambles for points. He then wins by piling Crossroads. http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140415/log.50e7525ee4b0b5b74140a6c0.1397598832700.txt.


First I play my Chapel and then I play... oh what happened now?

Classic misclick because of forgetting "done". Annoying when playing with hamlet and discarting your powerful $5 for a buy, even worse when you trash it with your Chapel... like I did on turn 5 here http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140404/log.50e7525ee4b0b5b74140a6c0.1396648601406.txt


I can't count

I really struggle when it comes to deck tracking. I can often count points (when there is no Alt-VP), but not always, as it appears.
In this game, in my last turn I have $12 and two buys, but I only buy Province and no kicker Estate. My opponent's buys the last Province on his turn and the game ends in a draw http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140416/log.50e7525ee4b0b5b74140a6c0.1397671370143.txt

These are good points, all of them happened to me as well. Maybe you wanna write an article "Top 10 blunders during the game"? :)
Concerning my list, I probably did not accentuate enough that it only refers to mistakes one can avoid before the game starts; that's why I called it "opening" blunders.
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SCSN

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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2014, 08:35:07 am »
+1

1) Oooh ... there's also colonies!

It's really surprising how many players, including myself, repeatedly fall for this one.

My personal "record" for noticing this is T12. Even more embarrassingly: I set it in 2014. Funnily enough I don't think it actually matters that often.

Quote
2) Now that I built my engine ... where's that f*$&ing +buy?

Time to purchase an abandoned market for 16$. If there is one.

Massively overpaying for +buy doesn't have to be bad; getting it too early is a more common mistake. And +buy is certainly no requirement to go engine. A gainer as weak as Workshop or Develop can be enough, or just a way to slow down your opponent so that eventually you can consistently get 1 Province/turn while he can't, e.g. in the 4-card kingdom Chapel, Fishing Village, Rabble, King's Court, BM-Rabble (with or without Chapel) will just always lose to the engine.

Quote
3) Ah, a shelters game. Oh, many nice cards ...  really fascinating board ... there's so much I can think of ...

.. i'll open baron/ambassador.

While Baron isn't exactly a powerful open on a Shelters board, Ambassador is still very strong and skippable only rarely.
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assemble_me

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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2014, 08:50:34 am »
0

I probably did not accentuate enough that it only refers to mistakes one can avoid before the game starts; that's why I called it "opening" blunders.

Well, a bit, maybe. I guess your no. 4 and 5 can happen every moment during a game.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 08:54:13 am by assemble_me »
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MarkowKette

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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2014, 05:55:27 pm »
+1


Quote
3) Ah, a shelters game. Oh, many nice cards ...  really fascinating board ... there's so much I can think of ...

.. i'll open baron/ambassador.

While Baron isn't exactly a powerful open on a Shelters board, Ambassador is still very strong and skippable only rarely.

While i completely agree that Ambassador is rarely ignoreable even on shelter board, i do think that Ambassador is ignorable more often than you think on the opening buys. If there is an Engine to build with cheap components you can often wait a few turns to get your Ambassador. Once you have a bit of draw you can easily return all those coppers you've been dealt. On non-shelter boards you will be slowed down more because of returned estates instead of coppers and your opponents ability to get a few engine components already will be a lot higher as he can also thin out the cards that don't provide any economy for him. So while in this case not opening Ambassador will probably lead towards you losing the Ambassador war, with shelters that is not as sure anymore.

And on topic:

how often those things happen to me:

10.) ...wait, you can already click that button before turn 5??
9.) seldom
8.) rarely
7.) from time to time
6.) can't remember the last time
5.) whenever i play Wandering Winder
4.) not often
3.) too often
2.) uncommonly
1.) commonly

« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 07:49:26 pm by MarkowKette »
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dondon151

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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2014, 07:35:50 pm »
0

While i completely agreen that Ambassador is rarely ignoreable even on shelter board, i do think that Ambassador is ignorable more often than you think on the opening buys. If there is an Engine to build with cheap components you can often wait a few turns to get your Ambassador. Once you have a bit of draw you can easily return all those coppers you've been dealt.

Have you played an Amb game...?
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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2014, 07:42:31 pm »
+2

I'm missing my favorites:

Curses and Ruins are two piles...

and if both of them are gone, the game ends soon, even if you can't see one of them at the first page.
In this game I try to clean my deck while my opponent scrambles for points. He then wins by piling Crossroads. http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140415/log.50e7525ee4b0b5b74140a6c0.1397598832700.txt.


First I play my Chapel and then I play... oh what happened now?

Classic misclick because of forgetting "done". Annoying when playing with hamlet and discarting your powerful $5 for a buy, even worse when you trash it with your Chapel... like I did on turn 5 here http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140404/log.50e7525ee4b0b5b74140a6c0.1396648601406.txt


I can't count

I really struggle when it comes to deck tracking. I can often count points (when there is no Alt-VP), but not always, as it appears.
In this game, in my last turn I have $12 and two buys, but I only buy Province and no kicker Estate. My opponent's buys the last Province on his turn and the game ends in a draw http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140416/log.50e7525ee4b0b5b74140a6c0.1397671370143.txt

These are good points, all of them happened to me as well. Maybe you wanna write an article "Top 10 blunders during the game"? :)
Concerning my list, I probably did not accentuate enough that it only refers to mistakes one can avoid before the game starts; that's why I called it "opening" blunders.


Your opponents open goons often do they? (Someone going to work out the odds of this?)
Also, impressive that you can draw your deck before the game starts?
And have most of your engine pieces...

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MarkowKette

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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2014, 07:45:09 pm »
+1

While i completely agreen that Ambassador is rarely ignoreable even on shelter board, i do think that Ambassador is ignorable more often than you think on the opening buys. If there is an Engine to build with cheap components you can often wait a few turns to get your Ambassador. Once you have a bit of draw you can easily return all those coppers you've been dealt.

Have you played an Amb game...?

Have you read the whole text...?
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dondon151

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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2014, 08:14:17 pm »
0

Were you asserting that Amb can be ignored as an opening buy in general or only on Shelters boards? It seemed quite plain to me that you were saying the former when you really meant the latter.
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MarkowKette

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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2014, 08:59:49 pm »
0

Were you asserting that Amb can be ignored as an opening buy in general or only on Shelters boards? It seemed quite plain to me that you were saying the former when you really meant the latter.

My whole comment compares ambassador on shelters board with the general case so i though it would be clear that this was referring to a shelters board (it's even in the first half od the same sentence).
I'm sry if the sentence structure is misleading.
But as my last sentence already states that you probably lose the ambassador war in the general case when you don't open with it, i don't really understand how you it can still be misunderstood that way after reading it all.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 09:03:42 pm by MarkowKette »
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Polk5440

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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2014, 11:06:32 pm »
0

Re: OP. Good points, but you should talk a little more about what you mean for each point. As is, it reads less like an article and more like a list of snarky comments (esp. #4-1).
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terminalCopper

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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2014, 02:11:03 am »
+1

Your opponents open goons often do they? (Someone going to work out the odds of this?)
Also, impressive that you can draw your deck before the game starts?
And have most of your engine pieces...

Ah, I see where the misunderstandings come from. Of course, these issues aren't common in T1, but I sometimes commited opening blunders because I should have anticipated these things right from the start. Examples:
If I choose BM because I consider it to be a notch better than going engine, it is probably a disaster if goons appear to be on board in T9.
If I plan to draw my deck, I might buy the wrong cards at the beginning just to discover in mid-game that hamlet/courtyard won't go far.

[...] And +buy is certainly no requirement to go engine.
[...]
While Baron isn't exactly a powerful open on a Shelters board, Ambassador is still very strong and skippable only rarely.


I agree that engines can be awesome without +buy and ambassadors are still strong cards on most shelters board. However, if you ignore these facts, there are a couple of trappy situations: 

- You might build your engine differently right from the start if you plan to get one prov per turn than two provs.

- "Amb with shelters" merits its own article... it's still a strong card, but I might skip it in, say, 20% instead of 2%.

Examples:
While amb vs. chapel or amb vs. masq is usually a close call, on a shelters board, preferring amb can be harmful.
Also, amb is usually preferable to forager, Steward, ... but with Shelters, I doubt it.
And furthermore, if my opp has apothecaries, Amb/shelter looks dangerous.
On a board with Hunting Party I might prefer almost any other trasher that gets the shelters out of the way.
With Vaults, Governors or especially wharves on board, I can imagine that the game will be way too fast to catch up with late curse attacks.
Possession is always a dangerous card for amb, but many players go for it anyway. This might be different with shelters, as amb's impact is slower and less hurtful.

Well, as I said, there could be an entire article about this issue, I'd be happy if someone wrote it ... concerning my list, I just wanted to choose an example where ignoring shelters can be a mistake.

Re: OP. Good points, but you should talk a little more about what you mean for each point. As is, it reads less like an article and more like a list of snarky comments (esp. #4-1).

Thanks for the advice; maybe I will edit the article a little later on added some remarks.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 03:39:55 am by terminalCopper »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2014, 08:47:40 am »
0

Your opponents open goons often do they? (Someone going to work out the odds of this?)
1/12 in a game with both Goons and Baker; the probability of having both Goons and Baker in a game is not well-defined. (There are some other less-likely scenarios involving Embassy.)
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dominator 123

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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2014, 10:01:52 am »
+2

Your opponents open goons often do they? (Someone going to work out the odds of this?)
1/12 in a game with both Goons and Baker; the probability of having both Goons and Baker in a game is not well-defined. (There are some other less-likely scenarios involving Embassy.)
No, it's 1/6. Both 2/5 and 5/2 allow Goons to be bought.
As for the exact calculations:
The chances of getting 5 coppers on turn 1 is (7*6*5*4*3)/(10*9*8*7*6)=1/12. By symmetry, drawing 5 coppers on turn 2 is the same. (Unless Noble Brigand edge cases etc.) So the chance is 1/6.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2014, 01:12:37 pm »
0

My bad, yes, of course it's 1/6. My mind is wandering.
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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2014, 03:56:10 pm »
0

(There are some other less-likely scenarios involving Embassy.)
how does it work with embassy? You won't get the silver until T3 at the earliest, unless noble brigand, right?
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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2014, 05:49:56 pm »
0

(There are some other less-likely scenarios involving Embassy.)
how does it work with embassy? You won't get the silver until T3 at the earliest, unless noble brigand, right?

Presumably a 3-player game or some such nonsense
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Re: Top 10 opening blunders
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2014, 12:51:19 am »
0

Three player game. First player opens Embassy, 2nd player opens Noble Brigand, 3rd player only has 3 cards in his draw pile so he has a chance to draw his Silver at the end of turn 1 and use it on Turn 2.
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