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gambit05

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Penny Pincher
« on: April 14, 2014, 12:08:16 pm »
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The idea of this card is to have a different starting hand (like the Shelters from Dark Ages). A Penny is worth a copper, but has additionally the victory points. The more Pennies in your deck, the more Victory points are the Pennies worth. The Penny Pincher on the other hand hunts the Pennies.

Code: [Select]
Penny Pincher (Action-Attack)---(4)
Each player (including you) trashes a Penny from their hand, or reveals a hand without Pennies.
The players who trashed a Penny draw one card.
Take as many Pennies from the trash as you want.
Setup: Replace two starting Coppers with two Penny cards.

Code: [Select]
Penny (Treasure-Victory)---(0*)
(1)
Worth 1 VP for every Penny in your deck.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 12:32:16 pm by gambit05 »
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silverspawn

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Re: Penny Pincher
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2014, 12:19:58 pm »
+2

LastFootnote is using a similar idea for his set:



judging balance is tricky here, but I don't think the card is different enough to be interesting

e: then again, barrister is not an official card, so maybe being different isn't that important. it might work... needs playtesting though.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 02:29:29 pm by silverspawn »
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gambit05

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Re: Penny Pincher
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2014, 12:34:36 pm »
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Thanks. Looks indeed quite similar. Have those cards been playtested?
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silverspawn

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Re: Penny Pincher
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2014, 12:40:24 pm »
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Thanks. Looks indeed quite similar. Have those cards been playtested?

he has given it three stars which means it got medium testing, but his standards are really high, so there is a fairly big chance that the card is good as it is and a big chance that the concept works

LastFootnote

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Re: Penny Pincher
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2014, 11:43:58 am »
+3

I’ve been doing a little comparing and contrasting between Barrister and Penny Pincher. Both have their pros and cons.

One thing I really like about Penny Pincher is that it’s so much more likely to steal a Penny than Barrister is to steal a Domain. This is for two reasons. First it has a larger search space (a hand, rather than 2 cards), and second there are twice as many Pennies to steal as there are Domains. Barrister compensates for this by performing another attack: leaving dead cards on top of your opponents’ decks. But that makes Barrister way more wordy and complex than I’d like. Penny Pincher is way simpler, which is a huge plus.

Barrister’s attack also has some advantages, though. I think it has slightly less of a first-player advantage. If Player 1 steals the Penny in Player 3’s hand, Player 2 is going to get fewer Pennies on average. It’s minor, but it’s there. Also, even when a player has no Pennies left to steal, Barrister still attacks that player. This one is a bit of a mixed bag. It’s sort of nice that Penny Pincher whiffs elegantly. If Barrister were simplified to not topdeck junk and instead just trash Domains from the top 2 cards and discard the rest, it would be pointlessly milling opponents’ cards once you had all the Domains.

Let’s talk about Domain vs. Penny. Although it makes the mechanic more likely to be relevant, I think that having two Coppers replaced with Pennies/Domains is too much. At 2 players, it’s probably fine, and more compelling than having just one per person. But at 3 or 4 players, I think that it will probably just completely dominate the game in a not-fun way. 6 Pennies = 36 Victory Points, as much as 6 Provinces. 8 Pennies = 64 VP. I’d rather have a card be weak in 2 player games than be out of this world crazy in 3 or 4 player games. Also, unlike buying Provinces, pinching Pennies doesn’t bring the game any closer to ending. Add the fact that Penny Pincher doesn’t give you any resources (like Monument gives Coins), and you’re potentially looking at a situation similar cards that easily produce unlimited VP tokens. All players vie for the advantage over this special VP resource and nobody is incentivized to end the game.

Now you could fix this by tweaking how much VP Pennies are worth. But at [1 VP for every 2 Pennies in your deck], it scales weirdly. [1 VP/Penny] gets you {0, 1, 4, 9, 16}. But [1 VP/2 Pennies] gives {0, 0, 2, 3, 8, 10, 18, 21, 32}. Maybe that’s not a deal breaker. It is a bigger swing between having all the Pennies in a game vs. not having all of them. You could alternatively have a threshold. “At the end of the game, if no other player has more Pennies than you, +X VP.” That could be fine. I really like the simple elegance of [1 VP/Penny], though.

The only actual difference between Domain and Penny on a per-card basis is their cost: Domain costs $3 and Penny costs $0. Domain also used to cost $0, but now that I’ve tried it at $3, I’m never going back. At $3, Domains make nice targets for trash-for-benefit cards like Remodel and Mine. This gives a small but significant reason to want Domains before the end of the game. It gives you more of a reason to go for Barrister even in a 2-player game where the Domains are only going to be worth 4 VP maximum.

I was wondering if I could adapt Penny Pincher’s steal-from-hand aspect to Barrister and eliminate the other part of the attack. It would make the card much simpler. But I think it works against the Domains-as-Remodel-fodder aspect of it, and I’ve really grown fond of that. So probably I’ll leave Barrister as-is for now.
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gambit05

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Re: Penny Pincher
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2014, 12:37:58 pm »
+1

I’ve been doing a little comparing and contrasting between Barrister and Penny Pincher. Both have their pros and cons.

Thank you so much for your insights. Very much appreciated.

Quote
Now you could fix this by tweaking how much VP Pennies are worth. But at [1 VP for every 2 Pennies in your deck], it scales weirdly. [1 VP/Penny] gets you {0, 1, 4, 9, 16}. But [1 VP/2 Pennies] gives {0, 0, 2, 3, 8, 10, 18, 21, 32}. Maybe that’s not a deal breaker. It is a bigger swing between having all the Pennies in a game vs. not having all of them. You could alternatively have a threshold. “At the end of the game, if no other player has more Pennies than you, +X VP.” That could be fine. I really like the simple elegance of [1 VP/Penny], though.

How about introducing a threshold: 1 VP/Penny with a maximum of 25 VP in total.

Quote
The only actual difference between Domain and Penny on a per-card basis is their cost: Domain costs $3 and Penny costs $0. Domain also used to cost $0, but now that I’ve tried it at $3, I’m never going back. At $3, Domains make nice targets for trash-for-benefit cards like Remodel and Mine. This gives a small but significant reason to want Domains before the end of the game. It gives you more of a reason to go for Barrister even in a 2-player game where the Domains are only going to be worth 4 VP maximum.

Funny thing is that my Penny originally cost (6), which I then reduced to (4), for the very same reasons as your Domains (trash-for-benefit). However, when I presented the cards in the German Dominion Blog, people got confused, thinking that Penny has its own supply pile, and arguing that such a card has traditionally (0) costs. So, I changed it to (0).

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LastFootnote

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Re: Penny Pincher
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2014, 01:37:36 pm »
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How about introducing a threshold: 1 VP/Penny with a maximum of 25 VP in total.

Personally, I think that's wonky, and it only addresses the issue in games with 4 or more players. Even on the lower side of things, it scales strangely. Take a 3-player game. If I get 5 Pennies, I have 10 VP. But if I can get the 6th one, I get 18 VP! But again, I'm just guessing here. Maybe it's fine. But when the gap is so great between getting all of them and getting all but one, I think perhaps it's too much.

Funny thing is that my Penny originally cost (6), which I then reduced to (4), for the very same reasons as your Domains (trash-for-benefit). However, when I presented the cards in the German Dominion Blog, people got confused, thinking that Penny has its own supply pile, and arguing that such a card has traditionally (0) costs. So, I changed it to (0).

Well, you could add "(This is not in the Supply.)" to the bottom for the purposes of getting feedback, I guess. The actual final card doesn't need it for the same reason that Shelters don't need it: there's never going to be a pile of them on the table. Domain has the advantage that there are 6 of them total, one for each player. But there would have to be 12 Pennies, which is exactly the number of cards you'd normally have in a Victory card pile. Maybe for that reason they should be marked as not in the Supply.

Still, you could mark them as (4*), rather than (4) and add ("This is not in the Supply") to the bottom. You'd probably be fine there. Personally I think $4 is a bit much for a card you start with 2 of in your deck. That would really inflate the value of Remodel and Salvager variants.
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navical

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Re: Penny Pincher
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2014, 01:56:18 pm »
+1

Would it be silly to start with 2 each for 2 players, and 1 each for more players?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Penny Pincher
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2014, 01:58:23 pm »
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Would it be silly to start with 2 each for 2 players, and 1 each for more players?

Not silly at all, just complex. Barrister definitely doesn't have enough space for that text, but Penny Pincher might.

Also, welcome to the forums! (Both navical and gambit05.)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 02:01:04 pm by LastFootnote »
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gambit05

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Re: Penny Pincher
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2014, 02:28:19 pm »
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Would it be silly to start with 2 each for 2 players, and 1 each for more players?
Just a funny (not too serious) variation that came into my mind:
Setup: Each player replaces 1 or 2 (up to 2?) starting Coppers with the same amount of Pennies (open vs secretely?)
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gambit05

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Re: Penny Pincher
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2014, 02:29:53 pm »
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Also, welcome to the forums! (Both navical and gambit05.)
Thanks!
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silverspawn

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Re: Penny Pincher
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2014, 02:34:22 pm »
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Mabye like this?

Setup: replace 4 starting coppers with pennies, distributing them equally. In a 3-Player game, the starting player gets 2.

with this version you can comfortably use 1 VP / Penny

gambit05

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Re: Penny Pincher
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2014, 02:38:15 pm »
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Mabye like this?

Setup: replace 4 starting coppers with pennies, distributing them equally. In a 3-Player game, the starting player gets 2.

with this version you can comfortably use 1 VP / Penny

What about 5-6 player games?
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silverspawn

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Re: Penny Pincher
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2014, 02:47:38 pm »
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Mabye like this?

Setup: replace 4 starting coppers with pennies, distributing them equally. In a 3-Player game, the starting player gets 2.

with this version you can comfortably use 1 VP / Penny

What about 5-6 player games?

isn't dominion designed for 4player only, and playing with more isn't technically part of the rules?

Well you can always add "In 5+ player games, the first 4 players get one penny each," if that fits onto the card

LastFootnote

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Re: Penny Pincher
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2014, 02:52:23 pm »
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isn't dominion designed for 4player only, and playing with more isn't technically part of the rules?

Well you can always add "In 5+ player games, the first 4 players get one penny each," if that fits onto the card

Unfortunately, 5- and 6-player games are canon. The Intrigue rulebook give specific rules for them. Seaside comes with 6 copies of each player mat, Dark Ages has 6 copies of each Shelter, etc.
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gambit05

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Re: Penny Pincher
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2014, 02:54:59 pm »
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What about 5-6 player game?

Quote
isn't dominion designed for 4player only, and playing with more isn't technically part of the rules?

Well you can always add "In 5+ player games, the first 4 players get one penny each," if that fits onto the card

In some combinations, you can play with 5-6 players, e.g. Dominion Base game + Intrigue (you just need enough basic treasures and victory cards (and curses).
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navical

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Re: Penny Pincher
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2014, 03:47:16 pm »
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Also, welcome to the forums! (Both navical and gambit05.)
Thankyou :)
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gambit05

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Re: Penny Pincher
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2014, 06:17:23 am »
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How about something like:

Setup: A total of 5 Pennies replace 5 starting Coppers, and are shuffled together with the remaining Coppers.
Coppers and Pennies are randomly distributed to the players.

For the 1 VP/Penny count.
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