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Author Topic: Hannibal  (Read 2711 times)

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Witherweaver

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Hannibal
« on: April 12, 2014, 09:31:44 pm »
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Anyone watching this show?  I think it's spectacular.  It's, like, what I look forward to on Friday nights.
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Teproc

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Re: Hannibal
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2014, 12:01:07 pm »
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Yep. It's great. On a visual level, nothing even compares (Breaking Bad did, but it's over now). The plot rarely makes sense, but it's so incredibly well-acted and just generally fascinating that it doesn't matter. Oh, and the sound design is insane too, especially this season.

I've been thinking about it in mafia terms too : Will totally investigated Hannibal and is now trying to convince VTs Jack Crawford and Alana Bloom than he's scum, in the meantime you've got people getting NKed and they're basically at lylo now !

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Witherweaver

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Re: Hannibal
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2014, 01:39:19 pm »
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Yep. It's great. On a visual level, nothing even compares (Breaking Bad did, but it's over now). The plot rarely makes sense, but it's so incredibly well-acted and just generally fascinating that it doesn't matter. Oh, and the sound design is insane too, especially this season.

I've been thinking about it in mafia terms too : Will totally investigated Hannibal and is now trying to convince VTs Jack Crawford and Alana Bloom than he's scum, in the meantime you've got people getting NKed and they're basically at lylo now !

Ha, good call.  You should make a Hannibal game.
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cayvie

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Re: Hannibal
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2014, 01:40:43 pm »
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So one of the most distinctive features of Hannibal is that it spends long scenes each episode, sometimes back to back, just luxuriating in tableaux, and dreamlike/hallucinatory effects. And the function here has less to do with narrative advancement and more with just mood, tone, and getting inside a character's mind. It's expressionistic.

And it's of course a completely different show, but the only other one I can think of that even comes close to doing anything at all like this is Adventure Time.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Hannibal
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2014, 01:59:40 pm »
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I don't actually think the plot doesn't make sense.  It makes enough sense, it's only that certain events are not realistic.  And it doesn't explain how they happen.  But I prefer that.

I think back to Silence of the Lambs.   Which I loved.  But they show how Hannibal killed the two cops in his cell.  Very unbelievable given that you see all of it.  He cuffs one guard's hand and proceeds  to bite a chunk from the face of the other guard and excessively mace him.  The other cop with one arm free has no weapon (gun?) to use against Hannibal during the (long) time Hannibal was disposing of the other guard?

Imagine if they didn't show anything instead, and just showed him pick his handcuffs and then cut, and the next time you see the room the guard was strung up.  That would give you a greater sense of awe and mystery about Hannibal.. You could yourself create the part of what he did that wasn't shown, and in your head out could be more terrible than the movie did.

I think the latter idea is what the show is doing.  And it gives out a fantastical feel, which I really like.
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Teproc

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Re: Hannibal
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2014, 02:33:18 pm »
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Oh yeah, I like the nightmarish feel it has, and how it doesn't even bother to explain some things, like how Hannibal sets up these elaborate tableaux, or how he sometimes deal with people directly (the latest episode has an instance of this with the two FBI guys at Chilton's house).

But it's still covering up for a shaky plot that doesn't really stand up to scrutiny a lot of the time. I'm fine with that, but I've heard people criticize the show for it, and it's a pretty fair criticism.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Hannibal
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2014, 04:49:12 pm »
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Oh yeah, I like the nightmarish feel it has, and how it doesn't even bother to explain some things, like how Hannibal sets up these elaborate tableaux, or how he sometimes deal with people directly (the latest episode has an instance of this with the two FBI guys at Chilton's house).

But it's still covering up for a shaky plot that doesn't really stand up to scrutiny a lot of the time. I'm fine with that, but I've heard people criticize the show for it, and it's a pretty fair criticism.

Yeah, I've seen the criticism, but for me it misses the point.  I mean, they could have written the show where these things weren't so elaborate or fantastical, and either explained how it was done or made is reasonable enough that you wouldn't find it unbelievable, but what would be the point of that?  For me it doesn't matter how Hannibal does these things, it matters that he does them and why, and what his master plan is.

This is a point for me that extends further than just this show.  I keep reading a lot of comments about shows that they don't make sense, that the writing is "sloppy", that they've jumped the shark (which is never used correctly).  Who ever said that fictional stories should be believable?  In fact, they should be distinctly unbelievable.  Having everything be perfectly plausible would undermine the integrity of the story.  In Great Expectations, there is no reasonable way that Pip happens to show up at ruins of the old manner after being gone 11 years and Estella just happens to come back to visit at exactly the same time.  That they would both go back and visit is plausible.  But that they would both come back at the exact same time and happen to run into each other is completely unreasonable.  However, it was the necessary way for the story to unfold.

I mean tons of classic stories have these sort of things.  There is no realistic way Gatsby produces that much wealth from nothing... there's a back story, but it's not believable.  Javert just running into Jean Valjean multiple times throughout the course of 20 (or whatever) years in a huge country with big cities and without the kind of modern connections we have now is unbelievable.  Or in just about every fantasy novel, where the hero that is ignorant of his/her abilities first discovers them in a life-or-death situation and overcomes whatever evil is attacking him.  In a "realistic" fantasy novel, that hero is dead, because even though he has special powers, so do those hunting him, and they're experienced at using them.  The believable story is that the villains (experienced killers!) would not underestimate the hero, and they would simply kill him without any issue or deus ex machina.  But then the epic fantasy series would be like 4 chapters, and there would be no story arcs. 

Who wants to read stories that happen in the real world? That's called news, and news is boring.  I think the mark of good writing is creating stories and characters that engross you enough so that these things don't matter.  As long as you're sufficiently engrossed, suspension of disbelief is not really an issue.  I think Hannibal does this, and I think a lot of shows that get this kind of criticism (e.g., Walking Dead, Breaking Bad) do so as well. 

I do find it curious that this criticism only comes up for television/movies, though.  I don't see people complaining about these things in novels, plays, operas, etc. 
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Teproc

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Re: Hannibal
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2014, 07:04:20 pm »
+1

I completely agree. To me, fiction needs to be about character or maybe about a message (although that rarely works), not about plot. When fiction tries to be about plot, you get the disappointment people felt about the Lost finale. I think this is a part of a whole shift in society that wants everything to be rational, to be scientific, objective, quantifiable : plot is all of that, character depth is not.
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Awaclus

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Re: Hannibal
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2014, 10:43:30 pm »
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I do find it curious that this criticism only comes up for television/movies, though.  I don't see people complaining about these things in novels, plays, operas, etc.
Everyone watches television and movies. Novels, plays and operas are usually enjoyed by people who are specifically interested in them (though being interested in novels is fairly common).
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Re: Hannibal
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2014, 11:51:50 am »
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So I think this season is getting really interesting.

I don't think I'm spoiling anything in particular, but I'm going to discuss under the assumption that people reading this have watched the series.

I remember in both Manhunter and Red Dragon (the Manhunter remake), they made a lot of mention of Will Graham going to "a very dark place" in order to catch Hannibal.  It looks like the show is taking this and running with it.  (The movies didn't really specify exactly how Will got dark or how dark he got; I don't know if the books had a lot more detail.)  So it looks like Will is letting himself become like Hannibal in order to lure him in and catch him.  We'd want to think that Will is just faking, and I think a less.. risky? narrative would present it this way, but Will's emotions seem very genuine.  I think he really is able to find in himself this brutality, and even though he's still a moral person, he is letting that  brutality surface so that he can appear genuine to Hannibal.  And I think he needs to do this, because if he fakes in any way Hannibal will catch on.  Will then has to hope that once he goes down this dark path and Hannibal bites on the lure, he'll be able to find his way back to the light and bring Hannibal in.

It's a very risky plan, and I think it's really interesting.  They're playing a very dangerous high-stakes chess game.
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cayvie

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Re: Hannibal
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2014, 09:58:43 pm »
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The show is about superheroes/villains, yes? Will has his MURDERVISION and Hannibal has his omniscience.
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Re: Hannibal
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2014, 10:27:27 am »
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This season is awesome.  Now that I play Mafia, I appreciate WIFOM situations, and last episode felt like a big Mafia game in a way.  I especially liked Hannibal blatantly pointing it out to Jack at dinner.  Plus "Well, whomever is chasing whom, I'm going to eat them" made me laugh out loud.
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