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[qdread]

I searched but could not easily find a thread on this, sorry if it's duplicated.

I was curious how many high-level players play with the VP counter. I personally dislike it because I think part of the fun of Dominion is following along in your head. Having the vp counter rewards people who aren't paying close attention to what's been bought or mentally tracking the flow of the game. Those real-life moments when your opponent's hand is hovering over the last Province and you are secretly praying they'll buy it and lost are part of what makes the game fun. I have played in Scrabble tournaments in the past, and part of being a good player is being able to balance thinking about what to play while also tracking the tiles in the bag in your allotted time (on pen and paper). I think the VP counter makes the online game fundamentally different from the real-life game, and in my opinion that isn't a good thing.

So I use vpoff. What do other people think about the VP counter and its impact on the online game?

[DStu]

Most of them a few years old, but if you want to reread it:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3246.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3290.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3258.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3257.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=28.0

There should be an even worse one all before these, but I can't find it at the moment...
Probably have to go to BGG, as we are already at topic 28 of f.ds
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/641394/isotropic-flagging
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/638446/isotropic-point-tracking-browser-extensions
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/530608/game-aid-or-cheating

Edit: For bonus points:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1174.0 ;P

[SirPeebles]

Please direct inquiries related to VP counters, blacklists, oxford commas, orders of operations, and other controversial topics to the quarantined religion, sex, and politics board.

[Awaclus]

I don't play #vpoff games ever if there's an equivalent #vpon game available, and even if there isn't, I wait for a while before joining a #vpoff game. Sometimes I might play a #vpoff game if it's otherwise so much more fun than a #vpon game, for example if the opponent is a very good player or if I'm playing IRL/over Skype.

I don't mind tracking the VP if I have to, and I'm pretty good at it too, but it's a distraction from making tactical decisions, and I think that the tactical decisions are much more interesting than memorizing some numbers.

[qdread]

Yeah I see the argument that it frees your mind to focus on tactics, and I wouldn't want to limit the quality of opponents I could play if good players prefer not to play vpoff games. I guess I just like the additional challenge of having to mentally track numbers while simultaneously thinking about tactics, and I was wondering who else shares that opinion.

[Mic Qsenoch]

In Dominion Online currently, there is no memory component to VP counting because the log of the entire game is available at all times. It's only an exercise in addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.

Some would argue that the log should be truncated. If it were then we could have the memory arguments all over again!

[DStu]

Some would argue that the log should be truncated. If it were then we could have the memory arguments all over again!

That argument is not valid, we already had these dicussions as isotropic showed the complete log, so truncation is not required for point counter discussions.

[Jdaki]

Back in isotropic I used to play without the counter, but then I found that with the counter on, it made for a more relaxed game generally- yes I could count and deduce etc. without the log even, but it would be hard work, and with the log, merely tedious work. It's not meant to be work, it's a game, and I'd rather think about tactics and strategies etc. I assume the majority of players are now of this thinking.
If you counted in Scrabble with paper- surely this is actually analogous? If you had to count in your head, that would be like having vp counter off.
Is it now so long since isotropic that I can't remember- I thought there wasn't a whole log like in goko, but just the last few turns?

[Watno]

I think iso showed only parts of the log if the vp counter wasn't active.

[DStu]

Is it now so long since isotropic that I can't remember- I thought there wasn't a whole log like in goko, but just the last few turns?

There was in the beginning, it change after one of the point counter discussions, I think at the point where iso implemented the option for a point counter itself.

[SCSN]

Counting points is like washing the dishes: it's trivial yet cumbersome, and if there's a dishwasher available I'm most certainly going to use it.

I do expect to be giving up some edge by always playing #vpon, but I don't care; counting points is just not a skill in which I'd like to distinguish myself.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Some would argue that the log should be truncated. If it were then we could have the memory arguments all over again!

That argument is not valid, we already had these dicussions as isotropic showed the complete log, so truncation is not required for point counter discussions.

You can of course have the discussion about VP counters whenever anyone likes, I meant that the argument "you need good memory skillz" isn't currently relevant.

Is it now so long since isotropic that I can't remember- I thought there wasn't a whole log like in goko, but just the last few turns?

There was in the beginning, it change after one of the point counter discussions, I think at the point where iso implemented the option for a point counter itself.

I don't think this is true, the complete log would display sporadically. Most of the time it was a truncated log. The full log was some sort of bug.

[DStu]

Some would argue that the log should be truncated. If it were then we could have the memory arguments all over again!

That argument is not valid, we already had these dicussions as isotropic showed the complete log, so truncation is not required for point counter discussions.

You can of course have the discussion about VP counters whenever anyone likes, I meant that the argument "you need good memory skillz" isn't currently relevant.

Is it now so long since isotropic that I can't remember- I thought there wasn't a whole log like in goko, but just the last few turns?

There was in the beginning, it change after one of the point counter discussions, I think at the point where iso implemented the option for a point counter itself.

I don't think this is true, the complete log would display sporadically. Most of the time it was a truncated log. The full log was some sort of bug.

In the end it was a bug, in the beginning it was a feature

[Mic Qsenoch]

In the end it was a bug, in the beginning it was a feature

Sorry, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at in that thread. The specific message has nothing to say about whether the full log display is a bug or not. Do you have a post from dougz or something?

[DStu]

This isn't necessarily true, because all the information is tracked in the log and you can go back and read it.

[Mic Qsenoch]

This isn't necessarily true, because all the information is tracked in the log and you can go back and read it.

This guy posted that, but it wasn't actually true! Sometimes the full log displayed, and sometimes it didn't! I want to know whether dougz said anything about the behavior of the log display and what the intended behavior was, or a post from somebody else about some estimate for how often it did one thing or the other.

[Stealth Tomato]

Yeah I see the argument that it frees your mind to focus on tactics, and I wouldn't want to limit the quality of opponents I could play if good players prefer not to play vpoff games. I guess I just like the additional challenge of having to mentally track numbers while simultaneously thinking about tactics, and I was wondering who else shares that opinion.

On the other hand, I see that as a distraction rather than a challenge. In the end, it's a matter of perspective and nothing more.

[DG]

I guess I just like the additional challenge of having to mentally track numbers while simultaneously thinking about tactics, and I was wondering who else shares that opinion.

Some people will take up this challenge by using tallies, coins, or cards to count vp while playing online. There is no way to ensure opponents are not tracking this information. It's very hard to enforce any tournament rules that prevent deck tracking. Gokodom is a friendly tournament so it shouldn't be an issue. If anyone tried to organize an online Dominion tournament with cash prizes then automated deck tracking would become a serious issue (again).

[KingZog3]

The only argument I can really accept for #VPoff is in games with Alt VP like Gardens, Vineyards, Silk Road etc... I just don't see it as fun to lose a game because I bought a Duchy, only to forget my opponent had an extra Estate they didn't trash. To me it ruins the fun of the game to lose on a little mistake, even if I played better or something.

[jsh357]

Counting points is like washing the dishes: it's trivial yet cumbersome, and if there's a dishwasher available I'm most certainly going to use it.

I do expect to be giving up some edge by always playing #vpon, but I don't care; counting points is just not a skill in which I'd like to distinguish myself.

Agreed with this, but also I have very poor short-term memory as it is (I'm great at memorizing things long-term) so I'm at a disadvantage against someone who is ace at it even if I'm a better player than them.  Since the log is visible, point counter should exist IMO. 

[qdread]

I guess I just like the additional challenge of having to mentally track numbers while simultaneously thinking about tactics, and I was wondering who else shares that opinion.

Some people will take up this challenge by using tallies, coins, or cards to count vp while playing online. There is no way to ensure opponents are not tracking this information. It's very hard to enforce any tournament rules that prevent deck tracking. Gokodom is a friendly tournament so it shouldn't be an issue. If anyone tried to organize an online Dominion tournament with cash prizes then automated deck tracking would become a serious issue (again).

I certainly don't mind if my opponent is tracking manually either by tallying or looking back through the log at critical moments in the game, even if them doing it and me not gives them an edge. It's just the automatic nature of the VP counter that I would rather not play with. I suppose given people's responses that I'm in the minority. . . so I'd be happy to play with vpon in the future if it means I get better quality opponents.

[ragingduckd]

In Dominion Online currently, there is no memory component to VP counting because the log of the entire game is available at all times. It's only an exercise in addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.

This is how I see it too.  But I wonder how people feel about its logical extension: a feature that listed your entire deck contents and which cards remain in your draw pile.

Personally, I'd rather not play with that feature, even if it's just as logically justifiable as the VP counter.

[Mic Qsenoch]

In Dominion Online currently, there is no memory component to VP counting because the log of the entire game is available at all times. It's only an exercise in addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.

This is how I see it too.  But I wonder how people feel about its logical extension: a feature that listed your entire deck contents and which cards remain in your draw pile.

Personally, I'd rather not play with that feature, even if it's just as logically justifiable as the VP counter.

Everyone has to draw their line somewhere I guess. I don't like detailed deck tracking features either. In general, it doesn't matter much to me whether these features are available or not (VP counter included), because my general feeling is that games aren't decided by this kind of information very often.

The information from VP counting and deck tracking is surely relevant to all sorts of strategic and tactical decisions, but I think usually either:
- The decision has a negligible impact on game outcome
- The player will make the correct decision anyway, the trackers just give peace of mind/confidence
- The player will make the wrong decision anyway, because they're bad

I can't back this up with anything more substantial than my gut. I've played thousands of VPon and VPoff games between iso/goko, I don't think I track VP or deck contents particularly well, but I've never noticed any difference in my performance with VPon/off, and I still seem to do okay at winning.

[Jdaki]

Looks like most of us agree that point counting is normally make-work that detracts from general enjoyment of the game. It's a fairly thin line towards the skill vs. work argument for deck tracking; something that clearly gives one an edge and could feasibly be automated- did there use to be an extension on isotropic- I think I remember hearing about something like that which I definitely thought was leaning towards cheating.

Interesting. I think the value that could be gained from detailed draw pile tracking would be far greater than that of the vp counter, and is also a slightly harder skill. I guess it could be justified, but suspect most people would reject it. However, my original opinion was that vp counter was cheating too, so opinions clearly change.

[michaeljb]

Looks like most of us agree that point counting is normally make-work that detracts from general enjoyment of the game. It's a fairly thin line towards the skill vs. work argument for deck tracking; something that clearly gives one an edge and could feasibly be automated- did there use to be an extension on isotropic- I think I remember hearing about something like that which I definitely thought was leaning towards cheating.

I think the extension on isotropic could show the counts of the cards everyone has, but didn't track draw/discard piles. Like, you'd be able to see right next to the City pile that there are 5 in the Supply, 3 in your deck dominion and 2 in your opponent's.

I never used it (except possibly once or twice to see what it did, but no serious use), so I could be wrong about all it did but that's what I remember.