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[SCSN]

While most of the arguments in favor of a point counter can certainly be extended to support a deck-tracking device, there's a clear qualitative difference between the two in that the latter would impact the local gameplay at every stage of the game by making a lot stronger those actions that do something with the top (few) card(s) of the deck.

If Donald, in a moment of madness, decided to release the following card:

Blue Shield

All players count their VP total. Each player ahead of you by more than 3VP gains Curses until he no longer is. If none of the players were ahead by more than 3VP to start with, you gain the Curse pile.

Then I'd certainly stop playing Dominion be against the use of a point counter. Similarly for the slightly more reasonable card below:

Bookkeeper

+1 Action

Guess the VP total of the player to your left. He counts it. If you guessed correctly, +2 Cards.

Moreover, the exact deck composition cannot be deduced from the log, as it only shows the cards that were played, not the cards that were discarded at the end of turn.

[Polk5440]

To me it ruins the fun of the game to lose on a little mistake, even if I played better or something.

If it costs you the game, it's not really a little mistake.

Also, it's often hard to know who played "better" when games are that close anyway because you don't have all the information on your opponents' decisions/luck. And point tracking only matters for games that are close in score.

[AdamH]

Here are my opinions.

I choose to play with the VP counter off whenever I can because that's the way I prefer to play the game. Why do I prefer it that way? Mostly because Donald X designed it that way and I'm not a game designer, so I really don't like to deviate from exactly what in the rulebook unless I have a really compelling reason to. Convenience, by definition, does not qualify as a compelling reason for me, let alone a really compelling reason, and definitely not a really compelling reason. I realize I have probably lost more games than I've won because of a lack of VP counter/ability to count, but I accept this and I get as much enjoyment out of it as possible.

If there's a #vpon game I want to play, of course I'll play it; if someone asks me to play #vpon for a game (edit: that I'm hosting) then sure I'll do it -- usually in my tournament matches we alternate games of #vpon and #vpoff and I think that's a fair compromise; if there's a Tournament/Black Market/Knights game sure I'll play it, but I prefer to play without those cards enough that I don't carry them in my IRL box. I don't feel strongly enough about any of this to go blacklisting people for it because I think that's just plain ridiculous. People are entitled to disagree and that's great, and while I hope I don't miss out on games with high-level players because they're being ridiculous, whatevs. It's just a game.

Bold statement: People seem to think that a majority of Dominion players prefer to play with the point counter enabled. I think a vast majority of people don't care, and of the people that care more people prefer to play with it disabled rather than enabled.

Maybe I'm wrong. I've been tempted to just make a poll to see what peoples' opinions are but I don't think it would really answer the question. Again, these are just my opinions so feel free to disagree.

If computer tools are able to track certain parts of the game for players so they don't have to, great. If people want to implement those tools and use them while playing, great, as long as all players have equal access to them and know what they're getting into before starting the game. Would it be nice if automatch or table titles would help people match up with the games they want to play? Sure, that would be great. Should people be able to blacklist others because of their preferences for using some amount of these features that's different from their preference? Sure, I guess, though as I stated before I think that's just plain ridiculous, but whatevs. It's just a game. Please note that I have not made a distinction between point counter and full-deck tracking with all the bells and whistles and stuff -- I think everything I've said applies to all of it in exactly the same way.

Here's another opinion of mine: I like the idea of a way to just blacklist people that are commonly blacklisted as a way of weeding out trolls. I think that should be separated somehow from people blacklisting others for their game preferences because, as I said before, I think that's just plain ridiculous. Unfortunately, the fact that some people have said they don't care and want to merge those lists means that some people in the community want to violate the spirit of such a feature, and I think the best thing that can be said about this is "this is why we can't have nice things."

Anyways, those are my opinions. Feel free to disagree, I think it's great if you do. But you probably aren't going to change my mind.

[qmech]

I don't turn the point counter on, but I quite like it when other people do.

Tracking points is not always what you're interested in.  You want to know that you're up a Province and down 2 Duchies rather than that the scores are tied.

This is how I see it too.  But I wonder how people feel about its logical extension: a feature that listed your entire deck contents and which cards remain in your draw pile.

Sometimes I think I want this.

[SirPeebles]

I must just be a less competitive player.  When there is no vp counter, I don't feel stressed to memorize numbers.  I just don't know what my score is.  I go by the general feel of it.  Sometimes I'm off, sometimes not.

[jsh357]

I must just be a less competitive player.  When there is no vp counter, I don't feel stressed to memorize numbers.  I just don't know what my score is.  I go by the general feel of it.  Sometimes I'm off, sometimes not.

The thing that probably aggravates me the most is when I'm playing someone who is down by like 40 points with no hope of getting up but doesn't know because they aren't keeping score and the counter isn't on.  Since always playing with the point counter, I've reduced being stuck in games like by quite a bit. Like, I don't want to say knowing the score is the most important thing in the world or that I care THAT much about it, but I'd rather play more interesting games than dull slogs caused by someone having knowledge that someone else doesn't.  Just my two cents.  Bad endgame decisions are also a bummer, and the point counter helps avoid those, but they're a more reasonable problem to gloss over.

[serakfalcon]

I like the points counter. I can usually keep track within 2-3 points (if no alt-vp usually almost exactly) without it, but it's nice to not to have to spend the mental effort. It lets me focus on other things. Also, I may be different than some of the people here but I get annoyed when another player is ahead, could end the game, but thinks they are behind and so they don't end it. I'd rather lose and start another game then win purely because I have better memory. I guess I'd rather lose to someone playing a better strategy than win because someone made a silly mistake.

[DStu]

I realize I have probably lost more games than I've won because of a lack of VP counter/ability to count, ...

Judging from what I have seen on your stream, you probably haven't...

edit

[AdamH]

I realize I have probably lost more games than I've won because of a lack of VP counter/ability to count, but I accept this and I get as much enjoyment out of it as possible.

Judging from what I have seen on your stream, you probably haven't...

Haven't lost more than I've won because of it? Or haven't enjoyed it?

Counting is definitely a focus of my game and sure I'm much better than I used to be, but I can point to lots of games I've lost because of it...

[blueblimp]

I like Dominion as a game of making decisions: for example, which strategy to pursue, which cards to buy each turn, which order to play cards in your hand. I find that when playing 2-player competitive games without automated point counting, the decisions are slightly de-emphasized for two reasons: in complex endgame scenarios, which with point counting would be very interesting, you don't have enough information to make informed decisions (unless your memory is perfect); and the game becomes about both decisions and memory rather than just decisions. I don't mind playing memory games, but I don't like mixing the memory stuff into a game that I love for the decision-making aspect.

For that reason, I also liked full deck contents tracking a lot back in the days of drheld's isotropic extension. Ambassador tennis becomes a lot more interesting when you know how many Coppers and Estates each player has. (Yes, you can count this mentally, and I sometimes do, but it's not fun.)

I'd play with full discard tracking too if that were available. For example, Wishing Well is already pretty interesting, but would be even more interesting if I could exactly calculate the probabilities of various outcomes and the effect they'd have on my deck.

[Polk5440]

I like Dominion as a game of making decisions: for example, which strategy to pursue, which cards to buy each turn, which order to play cards in your hand. I find that when playing 2-player competitive games without automated point counting, the decisions are slightly de-emphasized for two reasons: in complex endgame scenarios, which with point counting would be very interesting, you don't have enough information to make informed decisions (unless your memory is perfect); and the game becomes about both decisions and memory rather than just decisions. I don't mind playing memory games, but I don't like mixing the memory stuff into a game that I love for the decision-making aspect.

For that reason, I also liked full deck contents tracking a lot back in the days of drheld's isotropic extension. Ambassador tennis becomes a lot more interesting when you know how many Coppers and Estates each player has. (Yes, you can count this mentally, and I sometimes do, but it's not fun.)

I'd play with full discard tracking too if that were available. For example, Wishing Well is already pretty interesting, but would be even more interesting if I could exactly calculate the probabilities of various outcomes and the effect they'd have on my deck.

Do you like playing Dominion or Cyborg-Dominion? Memory, time, and processing constraints are part of the game -- any game, really. I am not concerned with people mutually agreeing to Dominion variants like point counter dominion or cyborg Dominion, except in two cases:

1) People playing Cyborg-Dominion and real Dominion are relatively ranked against each other. Then you are ranking people playing two different games against each other and the relative rankings will be worse for both groups. You can't tune the true skill parameters for both versions at the same time as well as you could if everyone played the same game, for example.

2) The presence/ease of access of these tools gives the impression that people will illicitly use cyborg tools even if you don't mutually agree to use them. This could lead to a bad social equilibrium where everyone uses the tools even if the vast majority would prefer to play the more fun no tools version of the game instead.

Two more points:

Using tools and playing cyborg Dominion reduces the luck in the game, just like identical starting hands or "organize your deck, don't shuffle" variants do, because memory constraints are a form of luck. And reducing luck is NOT unambiguously good for the game.

Using tools like the point counter do NOT increase the number of decisions you have to make. They only provide information. You are making the same decisions, but instead of the payoff being a certainty, you have to evaluate an expectation of the payoff that depends on your belief about the distribution of that information you are missing. That's interesting! You can still focus on what you find most interesting rather than exert effort to remember the score, you just won't win as much. If you think there's a 60 percent chance you are ahead by one and 40 percent chance he's ahead by one, you can still make the right endgame decision, but sometimes you will lose.

[hsiale]

everyone uses the tools even if the vast majority would prefer to play the more fun no tools version of the game instead

The point counter poll hints that the vast majority considers point counter version to be more fun.

[Polk5440]

everyone uses the tools even if the vast majority would prefer to play the more fun no tools version of the game instead

The point counter poll hints that the vast majority considers point counter version to be more fun.

.... Majority of f.ds-ers who answered the poll, you mean. Not the majority of those who would consider playing online Dominion. I put forward a hypothetical bad equilibrium, anyway, not a fact.

[WanderingWinder]

This isn't necessarily true, because all the information is tracked in the log and you can go back and read it.

This guy posted that, but it wasn't actually true! Sometimes the full log displayed, and sometimes it didn't! I want to know whether dougz said anything about the behavior of the log display and what the intended behavior was, or a post from somebody else about some estimate for how often it did one thing or the other.

Way back in the wayback, before automatch, before ratings, before image mode, it showed the full log all the time. I don't remember WHEN that stopped, but I remember noticing it happen.

[silverspawn]

so, uh, i don't like the vp counter. memorizing things is part of the game, and counting points via program seems like a really silly and entierly arbitrary way to reduce that aspect. you still have to memorize stuff, like the number of villages/terminals/specific action cards/specific cards for alt vp etc, so why stop with just points? it also makes the game easier, which makes it harder to keep your rating up, and will make you lose more games against weaker oponents.

the log thing is... i don't know. I wish it wouldn't show the entire log, but so far I've had just one guy who really went through the entire log to count points, so I don't think it's that big of a deal. You can also go through the log to look up splits, or card count, or anything, really. For me that's the same as playing against smurfs to boost your ranking. If people do it, I cant stop them.

[SirPeebles]

I must just be a less competitive player.  When there is no vp counter, I don't feel stressed to memorize numbers.  I just don't know what my score is.  I go by the general feel of it.  Sometimes I'm off, sometimes not.

The thing that probably aggravates me the most is when I'm playing someone who is down by like 40 points with no hope of getting up but doesn't know because they aren't keeping score and the counter isn't on.  Since always playing with the point counter, I've reduced being stuck in games like by quite a bit. Like, I don't want to say knowing the score is the most important thing in the world or that I care THAT much about it, but I'd rather play more interesting games than dull slogs caused by someone having knowledge that someone else doesn't.  Just my two cents.  Bad endgame decisions are also a bummer, and the point counter helps avoid those, but they're a more reasonable problem to gloss over.

I can understand your position, but I tend to get annoyed when people resign rather than playing out the game.  It comes across as poor sportsmanship to me, and feels like the other person is in a rush.  I mean, we sort of informally agreed to play a game here, and then they just quit because they are losing?

[hsiale]

then they just quit because they are losing?

They quit because they have lost. At least in their opinion.

Let's say we play a game with some curser and, due to playing poorly, bad luck, or some combination of both, I ended up with 9 Curses and you with just 1. Additionally my deck has completely no means of recovering and the board is quite weak, so once you're done with cursing me, you will take well over 20 turns to buy 8 Provinces. Do you really want me to sit and watch those 20+ turns when the game is already decided?

[jsh357]

then they just quit because they are losing?

They quit because they have lost. At least in their opinion.

Let's say we play a game with some curser and, due to playing poorly, bad luck, or some combination of both, I ended up with 9 Curses and you with just 1. Additionally my deck has completely no means of recovering and the board is quite weak, so once you're done with cursing me, you will take well over 20 turns to buy 8 Provinces. Do you really want me to sit and watch those 20+ turns when the game is already decided?

Yeah, this is what I meant.  Sorry if it wasn't clear, Peebles. 

[SCSN]

it also makes the game easier, which makes it harder to keep your rating up, and will make you lose more games against weaker oponents.

So that's why my rating is so poor, I'm losing to all sorts of guys who are too stupid to count.

[silverspawn]

it also makes the game easier, which makes it harder to keep your rating up, and will make you lose more games against weaker oponents.

So that's why my rating is so poor, I'm losing to all sorts of guys who are too stupid to count.

no, you are just so incredibly good at the game that, despite having a disadvantage, you still manage to keep your rating up

[SCSN]

You almost make me blush!

[Awaclus]

a feature that listed your entire deck contents and which cards remain in your draw pile.

I'd like a feature that listed your entire deck contents, but you can't see which cards remain in your draw pile from the log, since it doesn't show what cards you draw, only cards that you play. That's why I wouldn't like listing the cards remaining in your draw pile.

[blueblimp]

Do you like playing Dominion or Cyborg-Dominion?

Cyborg-Dominion, no question. It just happens that there's not much a computer is good for in Dominion beyond deck tracking. It's a variant, but a variant that to me more truly captures the elegant core of the game than a physical game can.

You're absolutely right that tracking points doesn't increase the number of decisions there are, but it does increase the information you have available to make decisions, and I find informed decisions more interesting to make than uninformed decisions. Take endgame tactics as an example. If you don't know the scores, there is no such thing. All the decisions become trivial: try to maximize your points. If you do know the scores, there are lots of interesting decisions to make.

Of course, the possibility exists to remember better. That de-emphasizes endgame tactical skill in favour of memory ability. That's not necessarily bad, but I like the tactics way more than the remembering.

[DG]

Memorizing gives you a decision about how you apply your information. You also have decisions about what information needs memorizing and when to collect it.

[markusin]

I like the term "Cyborg-Dominion". With (almost) full information of the game, what mostly separates you from a bot is your tactical ability. Otherwise, you might as well pit bots against each other for a given board and simulate for 1000 or so games. That would remove the luck component too.

Okay, so that's clearly a variant, but the more information you have of the game state, the more your play can be programmed. Take from that what you will.

After years of playing Online Dominion, I still don't have a clear opinion of the VP counter. I accept using it when my opponent wants it, but always default to not using it.