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[qdread]

I searched but could not easily find a thread on this, sorry if it's duplicated.

I was curious how many high-level players play with the VP counter. I personally dislike it because I think part of the fun of Dominion is following along in your head. Having the vp counter rewards people who aren't paying close attention to what's been bought or mentally tracking the flow of the game. Those real-life moments when your opponent's hand is hovering over the last Province and you are secretly praying they'll buy it and lost are part of what makes the game fun. I have played in Scrabble tournaments in the past, and part of being a good player is being able to balance thinking about what to play while also tracking the tiles in the bag in your allotted time (on pen and paper). I think the VP counter makes the online game fundamentally different from the real-life game, and in my opinion that isn't a good thing.

So I use vpoff. What do other people think about the VP counter and its impact on the online game?

[DStu]

Most of them a few years old, but if you want to reread it:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3246.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3290.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3258.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3257.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=28.0

There should be an even worse one all before these, but I can't find it at the moment...
Probably have to go to BGG, as we are already at topic 28 of f.ds
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/641394/isotropic-flagging
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/638446/isotropic-point-tracking-browser-extensions
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/530608/game-aid-or-cheating

Edit: For bonus points:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1174.0 ;P

[SirPeebles]

Please direct inquiries related to VP counters, blacklists, oxford commas, orders of operations, and other controversial topics to the quarantined religion, sex, and politics board.

[Awaclus]

I don't play #vpoff games ever if there's an equivalent #vpon game available, and even if there isn't, I wait for a while before joining a #vpoff game. Sometimes I might play a #vpoff game if it's otherwise so much more fun than a #vpon game, for example if the opponent is a very good player or if I'm playing IRL/over Skype.

I don't mind tracking the VP if I have to, and I'm pretty good at it too, but it's a distraction from making tactical decisions, and I think that the tactical decisions are much more interesting than memorizing some numbers.

[qdread]

Yeah I see the argument that it frees your mind to focus on tactics, and I wouldn't want to limit the quality of opponents I could play if good players prefer not to play vpoff games. I guess I just like the additional challenge of having to mentally track numbers while simultaneously thinking about tactics, and I was wondering who else shares that opinion.

[Mic Qsenoch]

In Dominion Online currently, there is no memory component to VP counting because the log of the entire game is available at all times. It's only an exercise in addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.

Some would argue that the log should be truncated. If it were then we could have the memory arguments all over again!

[DStu]

Some would argue that the log should be truncated. If it were then we could have the memory arguments all over again!

That argument is not valid, we already had these dicussions as isotropic showed the complete log, so truncation is not required for point counter discussions.

[Jdaki]

Back in isotropic I used to play without the counter, but then I found that with the counter on, it made for a more relaxed game generally- yes I could count and deduce etc. without the log even, but it would be hard work, and with the log, merely tedious work. It's not meant to be work, it's a game, and I'd rather think about tactics and strategies etc. I assume the majority of players are now of this thinking.
If you counted in Scrabble with paper- surely this is actually analogous? If you had to count in your head, that would be like having vp counter off.
Is it now so long since isotropic that I can't remember- I thought there wasn't a whole log like in goko, but just the last few turns?

[Watno]

I think iso showed only parts of the log if the vp counter wasn't active.

[DStu]

Is it now so long since isotropic that I can't remember- I thought there wasn't a whole log like in goko, but just the last few turns?

There was in the beginning, it change after one of the point counter discussions, I think at the point where iso implemented the option for a point counter itself.

[SCSN]

Counting points is like washing the dishes: it's trivial yet cumbersome, and if there's a dishwasher available I'm most certainly going to use it.

I do expect to be giving up some edge by always playing #vpon, but I don't care; counting points is just not a skill in which I'd like to distinguish myself.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Some would argue that the log should be truncated. If it were then we could have the memory arguments all over again!

That argument is not valid, we already had these dicussions as isotropic showed the complete log, so truncation is not required for point counter discussions.

You can of course have the discussion about VP counters whenever anyone likes, I meant that the argument "you need good memory skillz" isn't currently relevant.

Is it now so long since isotropic that I can't remember- I thought there wasn't a whole log like in goko, but just the last few turns?

There was in the beginning, it change after one of the point counter discussions, I think at the point where iso implemented the option for a point counter itself.

I don't think this is true, the complete log would display sporadically. Most of the time it was a truncated log. The full log was some sort of bug.

[DStu]

Some would argue that the log should be truncated. If it were then we could have the memory arguments all over again!

That argument is not valid, we already had these dicussions as isotropic showed the complete log, so truncation is not required for point counter discussions.

You can of course have the discussion about VP counters whenever anyone likes, I meant that the argument "you need good memory skillz" isn't currently relevant.

Is it now so long since isotropic that I can't remember- I thought there wasn't a whole log like in goko, but just the last few turns?

There was in the beginning, it change after one of the point counter discussions, I think at the point where iso implemented the option for a point counter itself.

I don't think this is true, the complete log would display sporadically. Most of the time it was a truncated log. The full log was some sort of bug.

In the end it was a bug, in the beginning it was a feature

[Mic Qsenoch]

In the end it was a bug, in the beginning it was a feature

Sorry, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at in that thread. The specific message has nothing to say about whether the full log display is a bug or not. Do you have a post from dougz or something?

[DStu]

This isn't necessarily true, because all the information is tracked in the log and you can go back and read it.

[Mic Qsenoch]

This isn't necessarily true, because all the information is tracked in the log and you can go back and read it.

This guy posted that, but it wasn't actually true! Sometimes the full log displayed, and sometimes it didn't! I want to know whether dougz said anything about the behavior of the log display and what the intended behavior was, or a post from somebody else about some estimate for how often it did one thing or the other.

[Stealth Tomato]

Yeah I see the argument that it frees your mind to focus on tactics, and I wouldn't want to limit the quality of opponents I could play if good players prefer not to play vpoff games. I guess I just like the additional challenge of having to mentally track numbers while simultaneously thinking about tactics, and I was wondering who else shares that opinion.

On the other hand, I see that as a distraction rather than a challenge. In the end, it's a matter of perspective and nothing more.

[DG]

I guess I just like the additional challenge of having to mentally track numbers while simultaneously thinking about tactics, and I was wondering who else shares that opinion.

Some people will take up this challenge by using tallies, coins, or cards to count vp while playing online. There is no way to ensure opponents are not tracking this information. It's very hard to enforce any tournament rules that prevent deck tracking. Gokodom is a friendly tournament so it shouldn't be an issue. If anyone tried to organize an online Dominion tournament with cash prizes then automated deck tracking would become a serious issue (again).

[KingZog3]

The only argument I can really accept for #VPoff is in games with Alt VP like Gardens, Vineyards, Silk Road etc... I just don't see it as fun to lose a game because I bought a Duchy, only to forget my opponent had an extra Estate they didn't trash. To me it ruins the fun of the game to lose on a little mistake, even if I played better or something.

[jsh357]

Counting points is like washing the dishes: it's trivial yet cumbersome, and if there's a dishwasher available I'm most certainly going to use it.

I do expect to be giving up some edge by always playing #vpon, but I don't care; counting points is just not a skill in which I'd like to distinguish myself.

Agreed with this, but also I have very poor short-term memory as it is (I'm great at memorizing things long-term) so I'm at a disadvantage against someone who is ace at it even if I'm a better player than them.  Since the log is visible, point counter should exist IMO. 

[qdread]

I guess I just like the additional challenge of having to mentally track numbers while simultaneously thinking about tactics, and I was wondering who else shares that opinion.

Some people will take up this challenge by using tallies, coins, or cards to count vp while playing online. There is no way to ensure opponents are not tracking this information. It's very hard to enforce any tournament rules that prevent deck tracking. Gokodom is a friendly tournament so it shouldn't be an issue. If anyone tried to organize an online Dominion tournament with cash prizes then automated deck tracking would become a serious issue (again).

I certainly don't mind if my opponent is tracking manually either by tallying or looking back through the log at critical moments in the game, even if them doing it and me not gives them an edge. It's just the automatic nature of the VP counter that I would rather not play with. I suppose given people's responses that I'm in the minority. . . so I'd be happy to play with vpon in the future if it means I get better quality opponents.

[ragingduckd]

In Dominion Online currently, there is no memory component to VP counting because the log of the entire game is available at all times. It's only an exercise in addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.

This is how I see it too.  But I wonder how people feel about its logical extension: a feature that listed your entire deck contents and which cards remain in your draw pile.

Personally, I'd rather not play with that feature, even if it's just as logically justifiable as the VP counter.

[Mic Qsenoch]

In Dominion Online currently, there is no memory component to VP counting because the log of the entire game is available at all times. It's only an exercise in addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.

This is how I see it too.  But I wonder how people feel about its logical extension: a feature that listed your entire deck contents and which cards remain in your draw pile.

Personally, I'd rather not play with that feature, even if it's just as logically justifiable as the VP counter.

Everyone has to draw their line somewhere I guess. I don't like detailed deck tracking features either. In general, it doesn't matter much to me whether these features are available or not (VP counter included), because my general feeling is that games aren't decided by this kind of information very often.

The information from VP counting and deck tracking is surely relevant to all sorts of strategic and tactical decisions, but I think usually either:
- The decision has a negligible impact on game outcome
- The player will make the correct decision anyway, the trackers just give peace of mind/confidence
- The player will make the wrong decision anyway, because they're bad

I can't back this up with anything more substantial than my gut. I've played thousands of VPon and VPoff games between iso/goko, I don't think I track VP or deck contents particularly well, but I've never noticed any difference in my performance with VPon/off, and I still seem to do okay at winning.

[Jdaki]

Looks like most of us agree that point counting is normally make-work that detracts from general enjoyment of the game. It's a fairly thin line towards the skill vs. work argument for deck tracking; something that clearly gives one an edge and could feasibly be automated- did there use to be an extension on isotropic- I think I remember hearing about something like that which I definitely thought was leaning towards cheating.

Interesting. I think the value that could be gained from detailed draw pile tracking would be far greater than that of the vp counter, and is also a slightly harder skill. I guess it could be justified, but suspect most people would reject it. However, my original opinion was that vp counter was cheating too, so opinions clearly change.

[michaeljb]

Looks like most of us agree that point counting is normally make-work that detracts from general enjoyment of the game. It's a fairly thin line towards the skill vs. work argument for deck tracking; something that clearly gives one an edge and could feasibly be automated- did there use to be an extension on isotropic- I think I remember hearing about something like that which I definitely thought was leaning towards cheating.

I think the extension on isotropic could show the counts of the cards everyone has, but didn't track draw/discard piles. Like, you'd be able to see right next to the City pile that there are 5 in the Supply, 3 in your deck dominion and 2 in your opponent's.

I never used it (except possibly once or twice to see what it did, but no serious use), so I could be wrong about all it did but that's what I remember.

[SCSN]

While most of the arguments in favor of a point counter can certainly be extended to support a deck-tracking device, there's a clear qualitative difference between the two in that the latter would impact the local gameplay at every stage of the game by making a lot stronger those actions that do something with the top (few) card(s) of the deck.

If Donald, in a moment of madness, decided to release the following card:

Blue Shield

All players count their VP total. Each player ahead of you by more than 3VP gains Curses until he no longer is. If none of the players were ahead by more than 3VP to start with, you gain the Curse pile.

Then I'd certainly stop playing Dominion be against the use of a point counter. Similarly for the slightly more reasonable card below:

Bookkeeper

+1 Action

Guess the VP total of the player to your left. He counts it. If you guessed correctly, +2 Cards.

Moreover, the exact deck composition cannot be deduced from the log, as it only shows the cards that were played, not the cards that were discarded at the end of turn.

[Polk5440]

To me it ruins the fun of the game to lose on a little mistake, even if I played better or something.

If it costs you the game, it's not really a little mistake.

Also, it's often hard to know who played "better" when games are that close anyway because you don't have all the information on your opponents' decisions/luck. And point tracking only matters for games that are close in score.

[AdamH]

Here are my opinions.

I choose to play with the VP counter off whenever I can because that's the way I prefer to play the game. Why do I prefer it that way? Mostly because Donald X designed it that way and I'm not a game designer, so I really don't like to deviate from exactly what in the rulebook unless I have a really compelling reason to. Convenience, by definition, does not qualify as a compelling reason for me, let alone a really compelling reason, and definitely not a really compelling reason. I realize I have probably lost more games than I've won because of a lack of VP counter/ability to count, but I accept this and I get as much enjoyment out of it as possible.

If there's a #vpon game I want to play, of course I'll play it; if someone asks me to play #vpon for a game (edit: that I'm hosting) then sure I'll do it -- usually in my tournament matches we alternate games of #vpon and #vpoff and I think that's a fair compromise; if there's a Tournament/Black Market/Knights game sure I'll play it, but I prefer to play without those cards enough that I don't carry them in my IRL box. I don't feel strongly enough about any of this to go blacklisting people for it because I think that's just plain ridiculous. People are entitled to disagree and that's great, and while I hope I don't miss out on games with high-level players because they're being ridiculous, whatevs. It's just a game.

Bold statement: People seem to think that a majority of Dominion players prefer to play with the point counter enabled. I think a vast majority of people don't care, and of the people that care more people prefer to play with it disabled rather than enabled.

Maybe I'm wrong. I've been tempted to just make a poll to see what peoples' opinions are but I don't think it would really answer the question. Again, these are just my opinions so feel free to disagree.

If computer tools are able to track certain parts of the game for players so they don't have to, great. If people want to implement those tools and use them while playing, great, as long as all players have equal access to them and know what they're getting into before starting the game. Would it be nice if automatch or table titles would help people match up with the games they want to play? Sure, that would be great. Should people be able to blacklist others because of their preferences for using some amount of these features that's different from their preference? Sure, I guess, though as I stated before I think that's just plain ridiculous, but whatevs. It's just a game. Please note that I have not made a distinction between point counter and full-deck tracking with all the bells and whistles and stuff -- I think everything I've said applies to all of it in exactly the same way.

Here's another opinion of mine: I like the idea of a way to just blacklist people that are commonly blacklisted as a way of weeding out trolls. I think that should be separated somehow from people blacklisting others for their game preferences because, as I said before, I think that's just plain ridiculous. Unfortunately, the fact that some people have said they don't care and want to merge those lists means that some people in the community want to violate the spirit of such a feature, and I think the best thing that can be said about this is "this is why we can't have nice things."

Anyways, those are my opinions. Feel free to disagree, I think it's great if you do. But you probably aren't going to change my mind.

[qmech]

I don't turn the point counter on, but I quite like it when other people do.

Tracking points is not always what you're interested in.  You want to know that you're up a Province and down 2 Duchies rather than that the scores are tied.

This is how I see it too.  But I wonder how people feel about its logical extension: a feature that listed your entire deck contents and which cards remain in your draw pile.

Sometimes I think I want this.

[SirPeebles]

I must just be a less competitive player.  When there is no vp counter, I don't feel stressed to memorize numbers.  I just don't know what my score is.  I go by the general feel of it.  Sometimes I'm off, sometimes not.

[jsh357]

I must just be a less competitive player.  When there is no vp counter, I don't feel stressed to memorize numbers.  I just don't know what my score is.  I go by the general feel of it.  Sometimes I'm off, sometimes not.

The thing that probably aggravates me the most is when I'm playing someone who is down by like 40 points with no hope of getting up but doesn't know because they aren't keeping score and the counter isn't on.  Since always playing with the point counter, I've reduced being stuck in games like by quite a bit. Like, I don't want to say knowing the score is the most important thing in the world or that I care THAT much about it, but I'd rather play more interesting games than dull slogs caused by someone having knowledge that someone else doesn't.  Just my two cents.  Bad endgame decisions are also a bummer, and the point counter helps avoid those, but they're a more reasonable problem to gloss over.

[serakfalcon]

I like the points counter. I can usually keep track within 2-3 points (if no alt-vp usually almost exactly) without it, but it's nice to not to have to spend the mental effort. It lets me focus on other things. Also, I may be different than some of the people here but I get annoyed when another player is ahead, could end the game, but thinks they are behind and so they don't end it. I'd rather lose and start another game then win purely because I have better memory. I guess I'd rather lose to someone playing a better strategy than win because someone made a silly mistake.

[DStu]

I realize I have probably lost more games than I've won because of a lack of VP counter/ability to count, ...

Judging from what I have seen on your stream, you probably haven't...

edit

[AdamH]

I realize I have probably lost more games than I've won because of a lack of VP counter/ability to count, but I accept this and I get as much enjoyment out of it as possible.

Judging from what I have seen on your stream, you probably haven't...

Haven't lost more than I've won because of it? Or haven't enjoyed it?

Counting is definitely a focus of my game and sure I'm much better than I used to be, but I can point to lots of games I've lost because of it...

[blueblimp]

I like Dominion as a game of making decisions: for example, which strategy to pursue, which cards to buy each turn, which order to play cards in your hand. I find that when playing 2-player competitive games without automated point counting, the decisions are slightly de-emphasized for two reasons: in complex endgame scenarios, which with point counting would be very interesting, you don't have enough information to make informed decisions (unless your memory is perfect); and the game becomes about both decisions and memory rather than just decisions. I don't mind playing memory games, but I don't like mixing the memory stuff into a game that I love for the decision-making aspect.

For that reason, I also liked full deck contents tracking a lot back in the days of drheld's isotropic extension. Ambassador tennis becomes a lot more interesting when you know how many Coppers and Estates each player has. (Yes, you can count this mentally, and I sometimes do, but it's not fun.)

I'd play with full discard tracking too if that were available. For example, Wishing Well is already pretty interesting, but would be even more interesting if I could exactly calculate the probabilities of various outcomes and the effect they'd have on my deck.

[Polk5440]

I like Dominion as a game of making decisions: for example, which strategy to pursue, which cards to buy each turn, which order to play cards in your hand. I find that when playing 2-player competitive games without automated point counting, the decisions are slightly de-emphasized for two reasons: in complex endgame scenarios, which with point counting would be very interesting, you don't have enough information to make informed decisions (unless your memory is perfect); and the game becomes about both decisions and memory rather than just decisions. I don't mind playing memory games, but I don't like mixing the memory stuff into a game that I love for the decision-making aspect.

For that reason, I also liked full deck contents tracking a lot back in the days of drheld's isotropic extension. Ambassador tennis becomes a lot more interesting when you know how many Coppers and Estates each player has. (Yes, you can count this mentally, and I sometimes do, but it's not fun.)

I'd play with full discard tracking too if that were available. For example, Wishing Well is already pretty interesting, but would be even more interesting if I could exactly calculate the probabilities of various outcomes and the effect they'd have on my deck.

Do you like playing Dominion or Cyborg-Dominion? Memory, time, and processing constraints are part of the game -- any game, really. I am not concerned with people mutually agreeing to Dominion variants like point counter dominion or cyborg Dominion, except in two cases:

1) People playing Cyborg-Dominion and real Dominion are relatively ranked against each other. Then you are ranking people playing two different games against each other and the relative rankings will be worse for both groups. You can't tune the true skill parameters for both versions at the same time as well as you could if everyone played the same game, for example.

2) The presence/ease of access of these tools gives the impression that people will illicitly use cyborg tools even if you don't mutually agree to use them. This could lead to a bad social equilibrium where everyone uses the tools even if the vast majority would prefer to play the more fun no tools version of the game instead.

Two more points:

Using tools and playing cyborg Dominion reduces the luck in the game, just like identical starting hands or "organize your deck, don't shuffle" variants do, because memory constraints are a form of luck. And reducing luck is NOT unambiguously good for the game.

Using tools like the point counter do NOT increase the number of decisions you have to make. They only provide information. You are making the same decisions, but instead of the payoff being a certainty, you have to evaluate an expectation of the payoff that depends on your belief about the distribution of that information you are missing. That's interesting! You can still focus on what you find most interesting rather than exert effort to remember the score, you just won't win as much. If you think there's a 60 percent chance you are ahead by one and 40 percent chance he's ahead by one, you can still make the right endgame decision, but sometimes you will lose.

[hsiale]

everyone uses the tools even if the vast majority would prefer to play the more fun no tools version of the game instead

The point counter poll hints that the vast majority considers point counter version to be more fun.

[Polk5440]

everyone uses the tools even if the vast majority would prefer to play the more fun no tools version of the game instead

The point counter poll hints that the vast majority considers point counter version to be more fun.

.... Majority of f.ds-ers who answered the poll, you mean. Not the majority of those who would consider playing online Dominion. I put forward a hypothetical bad equilibrium, anyway, not a fact.

[WanderingWinder]

This isn't necessarily true, because all the information is tracked in the log and you can go back and read it.

This guy posted that, but it wasn't actually true! Sometimes the full log displayed, and sometimes it didn't! I want to know whether dougz said anything about the behavior of the log display and what the intended behavior was, or a post from somebody else about some estimate for how often it did one thing or the other.

Way back in the wayback, before automatch, before ratings, before image mode, it showed the full log all the time. I don't remember WHEN that stopped, but I remember noticing it happen.

[silverspawn]

so, uh, i don't like the vp counter. memorizing things is part of the game, and counting points via program seems like a really silly and entierly arbitrary way to reduce that aspect. you still have to memorize stuff, like the number of villages/terminals/specific action cards/specific cards for alt vp etc, so why stop with just points? it also makes the game easier, which makes it harder to keep your rating up, and will make you lose more games against weaker oponents.

the log thing is... i don't know. I wish it wouldn't show the entire log, but so far I've had just one guy who really went through the entire log to count points, so I don't think it's that big of a deal. You can also go through the log to look up splits, or card count, or anything, really. For me that's the same as playing against smurfs to boost your ranking. If people do it, I cant stop them.

[SirPeebles]

I must just be a less competitive player.  When there is no vp counter, I don't feel stressed to memorize numbers.  I just don't know what my score is.  I go by the general feel of it.  Sometimes I'm off, sometimes not.

The thing that probably aggravates me the most is when I'm playing someone who is down by like 40 points with no hope of getting up but doesn't know because they aren't keeping score and the counter isn't on.  Since always playing with the point counter, I've reduced being stuck in games like by quite a bit. Like, I don't want to say knowing the score is the most important thing in the world or that I care THAT much about it, but I'd rather play more interesting games than dull slogs caused by someone having knowledge that someone else doesn't.  Just my two cents.  Bad endgame decisions are also a bummer, and the point counter helps avoid those, but they're a more reasonable problem to gloss over.

I can understand your position, but I tend to get annoyed when people resign rather than playing out the game.  It comes across as poor sportsmanship to me, and feels like the other person is in a rush.  I mean, we sort of informally agreed to play a game here, and then they just quit because they are losing?

[hsiale]

then they just quit because they are losing?

They quit because they have lost. At least in their opinion.

Let's say we play a game with some curser and, due to playing poorly, bad luck, or some combination of both, I ended up with 9 Curses and you with just 1. Additionally my deck has completely no means of recovering and the board is quite weak, so once you're done with cursing me, you will take well over 20 turns to buy 8 Provinces. Do you really want me to sit and watch those 20+ turns when the game is already decided?

[jsh357]

then they just quit because they are losing?

They quit because they have lost. At least in their opinion.

Let's say we play a game with some curser and, due to playing poorly, bad luck, or some combination of both, I ended up with 9 Curses and you with just 1. Additionally my deck has completely no means of recovering and the board is quite weak, so once you're done with cursing me, you will take well over 20 turns to buy 8 Provinces. Do you really want me to sit and watch those 20+ turns when the game is already decided?

Yeah, this is what I meant.  Sorry if it wasn't clear, Peebles. 

[SCSN]

it also makes the game easier, which makes it harder to keep your rating up, and will make you lose more games against weaker oponents.

So that's why my rating is so poor, I'm losing to all sorts of guys who are too stupid to count.

[silverspawn]

it also makes the game easier, which makes it harder to keep your rating up, and will make you lose more games against weaker oponents.

So that's why my rating is so poor, I'm losing to all sorts of guys who are too stupid to count.

no, you are just so incredibly good at the game that, despite having a disadvantage, you still manage to keep your rating up

[SCSN]

You almost make me blush!

[Awaclus]

a feature that listed your entire deck contents and which cards remain in your draw pile.

I'd like a feature that listed your entire deck contents, but you can't see which cards remain in your draw pile from the log, since it doesn't show what cards you draw, only cards that you play. That's why I wouldn't like listing the cards remaining in your draw pile.

[blueblimp]

Do you like playing Dominion or Cyborg-Dominion?

Cyborg-Dominion, no question. It just happens that there's not much a computer is good for in Dominion beyond deck tracking. It's a variant, but a variant that to me more truly captures the elegant core of the game than a physical game can.

You're absolutely right that tracking points doesn't increase the number of decisions there are, but it does increase the information you have available to make decisions, and I find informed decisions more interesting to make than uninformed decisions. Take endgame tactics as an example. If you don't know the scores, there is no such thing. All the decisions become trivial: try to maximize your points. If you do know the scores, there are lots of interesting decisions to make.

Of course, the possibility exists to remember better. That de-emphasizes endgame tactical skill in favour of memory ability. That's not necessarily bad, but I like the tactics way more than the remembering.

[DG]

Memorizing gives you a decision about how you apply your information. You also have decisions about what information needs memorizing and when to collect it.

[markusin]

I like the term "Cyborg-Dominion". With (almost) full information of the game, what mostly separates you from a bot is your tactical ability. Otherwise, you might as well pit bots against each other for a given board and simulate for 1000 or so games. That would remove the luck component too.

Okay, so that's clearly a variant, but the more information you have of the game state, the more your play can be programmed. Take from that what you will.

After years of playing Online Dominion, I still don't have a clear opinion of the VP counter. I accept using it when my opponent wants it, but always default to not using it.

[Polk5440]

I like the term "Cyborg-Dominion".

I like it, too .

I adopted the term from the chess variant where people can use any computer tools they wish.

[ftl]

I used to prefer #vpoff, because I liked the extra thought involved in keeping track of what's where. But then I stopped playing so much and played more vs the computer, and didn't really feel like paying as much attention to each game, so now I like #vpon.

[theblankman]

I used to prefer #vpoff, because I liked the extra thought involved in keeping track of what's where.

Is it thought though?  Matter of opinion, and we certainly don't want to derail the thread into the very nature of thought   But I make a distinction between "thought" and "busy work," and for me the line is about the same in work and in play.  When I have to do arithmetic at work, I don't do it by hand, that's what calculators, Excel and other tools are for.  When I play Dominion online, I can know the exact score at any time with enough busy work; just read the log and tally the relevant cards gained or trashed.  But I typically don't do that by hand, that's what the VP counter is for.  Ultimately I think the log makes online Dominion and offline Dominion two distinct and different games, but to me that's fine. 

[serakfalcon]

Just thought I'd remind the #vpoff crowd, if you put a special character in your name your points can't be tracked anyways...
I was reminded of it while playing against 'Goko took my $$'

[popsofctown]

In Dominion Online currently, there is no memory component to VP counting because the log of the entire game is available at all times. It's only an exercise in addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.

Some would argue that the log should be truncated. If it were then we could have the memory arguments all over again!

isotropic log was truncated, but i think there was an extension that untruncated it.