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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards  (Read 112857 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #175 on: April 23, 2014, 06:50:24 pm »
0

Im pretty sure Soothsayer is terrible. Rebut me!
It gives you a free Gold every time you play it.
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Rush_Clasic

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #176 on: April 23, 2014, 07:01:24 pm »
+1

The more successful Counting House decks I find, the more I think it's incredibly underrated. Not "move it into the top 10" underrated, but it's been better for me than many of the cards immediately ahead of it.

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #177 on: April 23, 2014, 07:03:38 pm »
+1

Im pretty sure Soothsayer is terrible. Rebut me!
It gives you a free Gold every time you play it.

You mean that in addition to cursing your opponent, it also curses yourself? And that while costing you an action and giving him a card ???
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #178 on: April 23, 2014, 07:04:32 pm »
0

Im pretty sure Soothsayer is terrible. Rebut me!

Depends on your definition of terrible. It has to at least be in the top half of $5 cards... I think.

If there's trashing, the attack aspect is pretty terrible. The Curse costs them a card in some future turn, but they get an extra card right now, which is way better. If the Curses don't accumulate, you actually just helped your opponent. So buying it just to Curse will indeed be terrible a lot of the time.

But there's a couple of saving graces:
1. Sometimes, the Curses can't be trashed. So then the effect eventually adds up to overtake the initial boost.
2. Sometimes gaining Gold is good enough that it's worth getting a card just to do that.

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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #179 on: April 23, 2014, 07:09:59 pm »
0

Im pretty sure Soothsayer is terrible. Rebut me!
It gives you a free Gold every time you play it.

You mean that in addition to cursing your opponent, it also curses yourself? And that while costing you an action and giving him a card ???
No, I mean that in addition to cursing your opponent, it also functions as your payload.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #180 on: April 23, 2014, 07:22:34 pm »
0

Im pretty sure Soothsayer is terrible. Rebut me!

I definitely wouldn't call it terrible. If there's a good use for Gold (Remodel, Butcher, Governor) and/or no good way to trash Curses, it's hard to pass on it.
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AJD

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #181 on: April 23, 2014, 07:46:37 pm »
+10

If there's a good use for Gold (Remodel, Butcher, Governor)

(buying Provinces)
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #182 on: April 23, 2014, 08:34:42 pm »
0

My top 5:

1.) Rebuild   [X]
2.) Mountebank   [X]
3.) Wharf   [X]
4.) Junk Dealer   [X]
5.) Cultist   [X]

Witch ekes out at #6, and I still think Junk Dealer deserves consideration for top 5. It's still in a much better place than last year.

I had Soothsayer at #9. Admittedly, I don't feel like I've played enough games with it to know its proper place and it's probably an overrate, but to me the Gold gaining is HUGE. Sure, a light trasher can trash the curses in your opponents deck pretty easily, but having a light trasher in a deck with a straight up gold gainer really forces your opponent to build up a strong deck quickly. Similar to Masterpiece, Soothsayer enables BM strategies that didn't exist before. On the other hand, the +card your opponent gets can save their engine when it would otherwise stall, and is extremely helpful for combo decks.

I had Ghost ship above Margrave, but just barely. Honestly, I find them very hard to rate against each other because they excel in different scenarios. Ghost ship is absolutely brutal in more sloggy games, and Margrave is great in engines that want +buy (never forget, +buy means more endgame control for the engine) and a very strong terminal in BM decks with high quality treasure.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #183 on: April 23, 2014, 08:38:19 pm »
+10

If there's a good use for Gold (Remodel, Butcher, Governor)

(buying Provinces)

Buying Provinces with Gold is so 2012.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #184 on: April 23, 2014, 09:10:33 pm »
+3

3 cards is roughly twice as good as 2 cards (since it's net +2 hand size vs +1 hand size)
How good is 2 cards compared to 1 card then?
saying +3 cards is twice as good as +2 cards works best on non terminals.  you can differenciate between effect and potential of a card, where as effect is what it says and potential is what you have gained when you draw and play it. (i.e. effect minus 1 card and 1 action). f.e. village has effect of "+1 card, +2 actions" and potential of "+1 action".

a lab has potential of +1 card. a "+3 cards, +action" card has potential of +2 cards, so it's usually indeed twice as good. a pure cantrip, +1 card, +1 action" has potential of zero, so it's infinitely worse than lab. safe for edge cases, even if you have a million of them in your deck, they dont do anything.

moat to ruined library is different because they both have -1 action; potential "+1 card, -1 action" isn't twice as good as "-1action", the latter is usually negative, and moat is just sometimes negative

c4master

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #185 on: April 24, 2014, 05:06:08 am »
0

I think Apprentice is fine, but Tactitian and Soothsayer are a bit overrated. Neither is better than Butcher, and I would move Soothsayer below Stables. I really think Soothsayer is only suited for BM decks and narrowly into TfB heavy engines, when Gold gaining can be nice. I think it is the most skippable of the Cursers.

Also, I think IGG is a bit overrated as well. I mean, it is kind of like Soothsayer, I would put them close. IGG rush used to be strong, but I don't see it as much now.

Regarding top 5, I would guess:

1. Rebuild
2. Mountebank
3. Witch
4. Cultist
5. Wharf

Although I would rank them

1. Mountebank
2. Cultist
3. Rebuild
4. Witch
5. Wharf

I think Soothsayer is a slow curser while IGG is a fast curser. Both cards "junk" your own deck (except that Golds actually help you sometimes ;)). I feel like the attack of Soothsayer is terrible and I wonder if a card that simply said: "gain a gold" would have been stronger. IGG on the other hand is a strategy on its own. It deals curses pretty quickly as you only need $5 and a buy. It doesn't depend on action cards being played. Thus said, accumulating all 10 IGGs will lead yourself to a deck that consists of at least 17 treasures half of which can produce more than one coin if needed. This should more or less guarantee a win since you only need to empty one more pile and you're probably leading in points.

I really hope, Rebuild is not the #1 $5 card. I hate it. I lose, when I'm playing it and I lose when I'm ignoring it. ;) And AdamH has teached us about Rebuild being countered by Minion. :)
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #186 on: April 24, 2014, 05:35:12 am »
+1

I think Apprentice is fine, but Tactitian and Soothsayer are a bit overrated. Neither is better than Butcher, and I would move Soothsayer below Stables. I really think Soothsayer is only suited for BM decks and narrowly into TfB heavy engines, when Gold gaining can be nice. I think it is the most skippable of the Cursers.

Also, I think IGG is a bit overrated as well. I mean, it is kind of like Soothsayer, I would put them close. IGG rush used to be strong, but I don't see it as much now.

Regarding top 5, I would guess:

1. Rebuild
2. Mountebank
3. Witch
4. Cultist
5. Wharf

Although I would rank them

1. Mountebank
2. Cultist
3. Rebuild
4. Witch
5. Wharf

I think Soothsayer is a slow curser while IGG is a fast curser. Both cards "junk" your own deck (except that Golds actually help you sometimes ;)). I feel like the attack of Soothsayer is terrible and I wonder if a card that simply said: "gain a gold" would have been stronger. IGG on the other hand is a strategy on its own. It deals curses pretty quickly as you only need $5 and a buy. It doesn't depend on action cards being played. Thus said, accumulating all 10 IGGs will lead yourself to a deck that consists of at least 17 treasures half of which can produce more than one coin if needed. This should more or less guarantee a win since you only need to empty one more pile and you're probably leading in points.

I really hope, Rebuild is not the #1 $5 card. I hate it. I lose, when I'm playing it and I lose when I'm ignoring it. ;) And AdamH has teached us about Rebuild being countered by Minion. :)
Soothsayer's attack is weak, but it's good when your opponent can't easily trash the Curse and in the early game where the Curse slows him down anyway and in the late game where he would be drawing his deck even without the draw. It's probably a good idea to skip playing it in the engine building phase though, or wait until after that before you even get one.

It's obviously a lot better if you can combine it with other Attacks: hand attacks to undo the benefit, deck attacks to ensure he draws a bad card while Soothsayer makes sure that he will always have a bad card, and other cursing attacks to empty the Curse pile before the draw becomes too good.
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terminalCopper

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #187 on: April 24, 2014, 05:45:21 am »
+2

Soothsayer is the weakest curser in the presence of good trashing. But it's the strongest curser if you are forced to play some kind of slog-BM, as in this case, Gold is so much more important than an extra card for your opp.
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Moneymodel

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #188 on: April 24, 2014, 08:05:48 am »
0

Whoa! Didn't expect to see Soothsayer so early. Is this the lowest ranked Curser we've had so far?

Though I definitely see the reasoning. In the short term (this turn and next) and, as Qvist said, in engine games, it's strictly worse than Sea Hag and costs 1$ more.

Since there's only 11 more, I think I'll put my vote in, more based on how the community sounds right now than on an actual strength ranking, which I've already submitted.

11 - Minion
10 - Torturer
9 - IGG
8 - Governor
7 - Junk Dealer
6 - Wharf
5 - Hunting Party
4 - Witch
3 - Cultist
2 - Mountebank
1 - Rebuild
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theJester

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #189 on: April 24, 2014, 09:22:08 am »
0

From my experience, Soothsayer excels in games with no trashing or weak to no engine potential. Player playing BM or slog really only needs to buy 1-2 Soothsayers and VP cards, maybe with occasional Silver. His main economy - Golds, will come from playing SSers, so he doesn't even need to waste a turn for buying them. Of course, they become terrible in the endgame, where neither your Gold nor opponents' Curse will see the reshuffle and opponent's extra card may make the difference between $7 and $8; but by that time, your deck is already filled with Golds anyway.

I'd be very curios to see simulators' opinion about Witch+BM vs Soothsayer+BM to see if the latter wins.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #190 on: April 24, 2014, 09:24:51 am »
+3

Stables worse than lab... ooff, or should I hooff??  ;)  that's a rather large error.
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c4master

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #191 on: April 24, 2014, 10:03:28 am »
+1

Stables worse than lab... ooff, or should I hooff??  ;)  that's a rather large error.

I don't think so. Stables almost always force you into some kind of Engine/BM-Hybrid, which is most likely worse than a good engine. In the endgame, you're likely to have 1-2 Stables, but no treasure cards in you hand. Then Stables is just a dead card. Or you have to discard gold into a Stables, but what are you hoping to draw? Stables+Copper+Province? Surely not.

In the beginning, Lab generates more coins, but cycles more slowly. So Stables might be the better option. Later on, I can keep buying Labs as any Lab will probably make my deck better (aside from opportunity costs), but Stables have the potential at making your deck actually worse.

On the other hand, Stables are pretty good when you're being junked by Coppers (Mountebank or Jester could do this).

Both cards are good ones, but I like Labs a bit more.

From my experience, Soothsayer excels in games with no trashing or weak to no engine potential. Player playing BM or slog really only needs to buy 1-2 Soothsayers and VP cards, maybe with occasional Silver. His main economy - Golds, will come from playing SSers, so he doesn't even need to waste a turn for buying them. Of course, they become terrible in the endgame, where neither your Gold nor opponents' Curse will see the reshuffle and opponent's extra card may make the difference between $7 and $8; but by that time, your deck is already filled with Golds anyway.

I'd be very curios to see simulators' opinion about Witch+BM vs Soothsayer+BM to see if the latter wins.

Well, how often will you play those Soothsayers? Probably no more than 3 times, maybe less. I'm not sure whether 6 Gold would make a pesky slog deck so much better, especially if there's another good junker (any witch, but also all those "Ruins dealers").

And I'm pretty sure doubleWitch beats double Soothsayer like 70-30. The Witches will be played more often and they increase hand size.

edit: Would be nice if the simulator had implemented Soothsayer as a card. Doesn't seem to, though.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 10:23:38 am by c4master »
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Moneymodel

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #192 on: April 24, 2014, 10:17:35 am »
0

From my experience, Soothsayer excels in games with no trashing or weak to no engine potential. Player playing BM or slog really only needs to buy 1-2 Soothsayers and VP cards, maybe with occasional Silver. His main economy - Golds, will come from playing SSers, so he doesn't even need to waste a turn for buying them. Of course, they become terrible in the endgame, where neither your Gold nor opponents' Curse will see the reshuffle and opponent's extra card may make the difference between $7 and $8; but by that time, your deck is already filled with Golds anyway.

I'd be very curios to see simulators' opinion about Witch+BM vs Soothsayer+BM to see if the latter wins.

I soloed it once. Witch won the Curse split, but Soothsayer won the province split. Basically what seemed to happen was that the Witch player, while more likely to collide, was also more likely to have Witch in hand because of Soothsayer's penalty...but those Golds, man, later in the game they really added up.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #193 on: April 24, 2014, 11:46:06 am »
+2

Stables worse than lab... ooff, or should I hooff??  ;)  that's a rather large error.

I don't think so. Stables almost always force you into some kind of Engine/BM-Hybrid, which is most likely worse than a good engine. In the endgame, you're likely to have 1-2 Stables, but no treasure cards in you hand. Then Stables is just a dead card. Or you have to discard gold into a Stables, but what are you hoping to draw? Stables+Copper+Province? Surely not.

In the beginning, Lab generates more coins, but cycles more slowly. So Stables might be the better option. Later on, I can keep buying Labs as any Lab will probably make my deck better (aside from opportunity costs), but Stables have the potential at making your deck actually worse.

On the other hand, Stables are pretty good when you're being junked by Coppers (Mountebank or Jester could do this).

Both cards are good ones, but I like Labs a bit more.


It's the fact that I will always pick Stables over Lab initially that I believe it's better.  Yes, it has liabilities if you trash Copper and over action yourself.  But I can't think of a situation where I would want to get Labs first and then switch to Stables.  It will always be Stables first and then Labs if they are both in the supply.  That extra cycling is just so good!
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c4master

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #194 on: April 24, 2014, 11:53:16 am »
0

Stables worse than lab... ooff, or should I hooff??  ;)  that's a rather large error.

I don't think so. Stables almost always force you into some kind of Engine/BM-Hybrid, which is most likely worse than a good engine. In the endgame, you're likely to have 1-2 Stables, but no treasure cards in you hand. Then Stables is just a dead card. Or you have to discard gold into a Stables, but what are you hoping to draw? Stables+Copper+Province? Surely not.

In the beginning, Lab generates more coins, but cycles more slowly. So Stables might be the better option. Later on, I can keep buying Labs as any Lab will probably make my deck better (aside from opportunity costs), but Stables have the potential at making your deck actually worse.

On the other hand, Stables are pretty good when you're being junked by Coppers (Mountebank or Jester could do this).

Both cards are good ones, but I like Labs a bit more.


It's the fact that I will always pick Stables over Lab initially that I believe it's better.  Yes, it has liabilities if you trash Copper and over action yourself.  But I can't think of a situation where I would want to get Labs first and then switch to Stables.  It will always be Stables first and then Labs if they are both in the supply.  That extra cycling is just so good!
...which is no contradiction to what I've said.

You're the one who still has to prove that Stables are much stronger than Labs.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #195 on: April 24, 2014, 11:55:25 am »
+1

I am much more likely to spam Stables rather than Labs. I am also in the camp Stables > Lab
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #196 on: April 24, 2014, 11:58:10 am »
+1

3 cards is roughly twice as good as 2 cards (since it's net +2 hand size vs +1 hand size)
How good is 2 cards compared to 1 card then?
saying +3 cards is twice as good as +2 cards works best on non terminals.  you can differenciate between effect and potential of a card, where as effect is what it says and potential is what you have gained when you draw and play it. (i.e. effect minus 1 card and 1 action). f.e. village has effect of "+1 card, +2 actions" and potential of "+1 action".

a lab has potential of +1 card. a "+3 cards, +action" card has potential of +2 cards, so it's usually indeed twice as good. a pure cantrip, +1 card, +1 action" has potential of zero, so it's infinitely worse than lab. safe for edge cases, even if you have a million of them in your deck, they dont do anything.

moat to ruined library is different because they both have -1 action; potential "+1 card, -1 action" isn't twice as good as "-1action", the latter is usually negative, and moat is just sometimes negative

Yeah, usually the -1 action is big deal if your plan is to draw all or most of your deck, which makes +3 cards much more than twice as good as +2 cards. You simply can't get enough villages to draw your deck with +2 cards most of the time. It's rare that you can build an engine with Ghost Ship as your primary draw. Rather it's usually just the attack to slow your opponent. Since Margrave can function as the attack AND/OR the draw component, it ends up being stronger on the whole.

Stables worse than lab... ooff, or should I hooff??  ;)  that's a rather large error.

I don't think so. Stables almost always force you into some kind of Engine/BM-Hybrid, which is most likely worse than a good engine. In the endgame, you're likely to have 1-2 Stables, but no treasure cards in you hand. Then Stables is just a dead card. Or you have to discard gold into a Stables, but what are you hoping to draw? Stables+Copper+Province? Surely not.

In the beginning, Lab generates more coins, but cycles more slowly. So Stables might be the better option. Later on, I can keep buying Labs as any Lab will probably make my deck better (aside from opportunity costs), but Stables have the potential at making your deck actually worse.

On the other hand, Stables are pretty good when you're being junked by Coppers (Mountebank or Jester could do this).

Both cards are good ones, but I like Labs a bit more.

The situation with Stables vs Lab is similar to the Margrave vs Ghost Ship. The strength of Stables is that it fills multiple roles. It draws AND it sifts/cycles. If you're trying to make Lab your primary source of draw, you need good trashing or some other source of sifting. Stables can make an engine with light or no trashing, so there are not as many demands for other cards. And when there's other drawing or sifting, you can use Stables primarily in the other role. Even though Stables can become less good later on, it overall enables more engines than Lab does. Plus, Stables is also good in non-engines while Lab really isn't.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 11:59:35 am by HiveMindEmulator »
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #197 on: April 24, 2014, 12:05:32 pm »
+2

You're the one who still has to prove that Stables are much stronger than Labs.

Labs get much better if you trash your starting Coppers. Stables gives you a similar benefit without having to trash your starting Coppers.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #198 on: April 24, 2014, 12:08:31 pm »
+4

I know, I wasn't trying to contradict your analysis of the card.  I am merely disagreeing on your conclusion based on the evidence provided.  In my opinion, the fact that Stables is always better early clearly demonstrates it's superiority to Lab.  Cycling can not be underrated. 

e.g.  Why do you think Ghost Ship is so high?  First, it cycles for you and slows down cycling for your opponent.  It results in a net 4 card cycling disparity.  That is almost an entire hand.

e.g.  Why haven't we seen Hunting Party yet?  It cycles even better than Stables.  The ability to cycle through your deck is extremely powerful.

e.g.  Why is Wandering Minstrel the highest $4-cost Village?  It is a Village that cycles to find actions.  The ability for this card to cycle through the deck and find actions makes it exceptionally powerful at enabling engines.

Back to Stables vs. Lab.  The extra 1-card of cycling from Stables really is that important.  The ability to get through your deck faster and find the cards that you are actually interested in whether they be it Gold, Mountebank, Monument, etc... is so important that I will always get Stables over Lab.  I will rejoice when my opponent does the opposite.

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Hello.  Name's Bruce.  It's all right.  I understand.  Why trust a shark, right?

Is quite curious - Who is the mystical "Celestial Chameleon"?

silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #199 on: April 24, 2014, 12:11:17 pm »
+1

Quote
Since Margrave can function as the attack AND/OR the draw component, it ends up being stronger on the whole.

oh, i guess my post kind of underlines that point. i was rating ghost ship almost 10 ranks higher than margrave though. i just feel like there are so many times when it dominates everything in sloggish games
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