Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 ... 12  All

Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards  (Read 112861 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

florrat

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 542
  • Shuffle iT Username: florrat
  • Respect: +748
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #125 on: April 21, 2014, 12:28:08 am »
0

Merchant Ship as +$2, gain a card, return it to the supply, +$2 next turn.
Unless you have Trader in hand, of course. You cannot return blue dogs to the supply if you haven't fed them before.
Logged

terminalCopper

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 331
  • Respect: +758
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #126 on: April 21, 2014, 03:46:56 am »
0

I like to think of Mint as +$2, gain a copy of a treasure, -$2 and Merchant Ship as +$2, gain a card, return it to the supply, +$2 next turn.
;D ;D ;D ;D

For sure, my comparisons are sometimes a little weird, but not THAT much. It's clear that if you instantly understand the equivalent strength of
"+1$, upgrade your copper" and "+2$, gain a silver, trash a copper", you don't need the latter interpretation. But if

"+1$, upgrade your copper"

sounds weaker or stronger than

"+2$, gain a silver, trash a copper"

you have probably under- or overestimated one of the ingredients. Figuring this out can be a useful thing derived from strange comparisons.
Logged

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 5301
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +3188
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #127 on: April 21, 2014, 08:48:32 am »
+3

Quote
"+2$, gain a silver, trash a copper"
that's stupid though, trashing your copper equals -1$. it's way more helpful to think of it as +1$, upgread a copper; it also makes sense to think of moneylender as "+2$, get rid of a copper" and not "+3$, trash a copper from your hand". if you do it like this, you know what you get in the turn you play it, and you can compare them a lot better

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #128 on: April 21, 2014, 09:12:21 am »
0

Even if Mine somehow gave $2 whenever you played it, it would be a bit silly to categorize it with Rogue and Jester. Even Explorer is a stretch.

Also, if you're mostly using Mine to upgrade Copper, you're doing it wrong.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11808
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12846
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #129 on: April 21, 2014, 09:38:48 am »
+4

You are actually expanding the Copper, not upgrading it.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #130 on: April 21, 2014, 11:53:54 am »
0

You are actually expanding the Copper, not upgrading it.

Technically I'm mining Copper. Or am I mining Silver? I guess I'm mining Copper into Silver. Whatever. The point is that it's a waste of Mine if you have a better target available in your hand.
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3846
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2437
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #131 on: April 21, 2014, 12:20:41 pm »
0

You are actually expanding the Copper, not upgrading it.

Technically I'm mining Copper. Or am I mining Silver? I guess I'm mining Copper into Silver. Whatever. The point is that it's a waste of Mine if you have a better target available in your hand.
I'm genuinely curious to know if there have ever been simulations of Mine BM vs. BMU (no Colonies) where the effectiveness of prioritizing the mining to Copper->Silver is compared to prioritizing Silver->Gold. In the absense of discard attacks, the increased variance in mining Silver->Gold over Copper->Silver is non-zero but small. At the same time, Silver->Gold increases the chance that you have nothing to mine when Mine is in your hand, since gold cannot be turned into a better treasure.

I would always mine Copper->Silver first when I used to play, and am still temped to do the same in games without discard attacks.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #132 on: April 21, 2014, 12:21:32 pm »
+1

I'm not sure how this list went into such a tangent about mines. Mines are about trashing and gaining. Sometimes this is purely for coin value and you want to gain higher value treasures without using buys (presumably so that you can buy drawing or engine cards) and without expanding the deck. Sometimes this is about gaining or trashing specific treasures for specific uses, such as silvers for foedum, manipulating potions, changinging hunting party draws, boosting horns of plenty, and so on. Sometimes you are gaining higher cost cards as fuel for other actions, such as mining copper to silver and upgrading silvers to caravans. If you only consider a mine to be a +1 cumulative coin then it will nearly always seem worse than silver as you typically need about four plays to be in credit. If you look at the trashing and gaining process and see it in a bigger picture of buys, card costs, and card relationships then the mine has much more to offer.

Quote
I'm genuinely curious to know if there have ever been simulations of Mine BM vs. BMU (no Colonies) where the effectiveness of prioritizing the mining to Copper->Silver is compared to prioritizing Silver->Gold.

The forums used to be interested in such things and the variance from the bigger treasures is more important. In other words, a deck of mostly silver gives you low variance 7 coin hands. I think the top players have realized since then that the stuff I mentioned above is more interesting.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 12:26:00 pm by DG »
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7495
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +10721
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #133 on: April 21, 2014, 12:26:46 pm »
0

I'm genuinely curious to know if there have ever been simulations of Mine BM vs. BMU (no Colonies) where the effectiveness of prioritizing the mining to Copper->Silver is compared to prioritizing Silver->Gold. In the absense of discard attacks, the increased variance in mining Silver->Gold over Copper->Silver is non-zero but small. At the same time, Silver->Gold increases the chance that you have nothing to mine when Mine is in your hand, since gold cannot be turned into a better treasure.

I would always mine Copper->Silver first when I used to play, and am still temped to do the same in games without discard attacks.

Discard attacks are one good reason to want Mine, as is almost any sort of sifting at all. Also there are the various tricks you can do, as described by DG.

In the absence of any of those, you probably shouldn't be buying Mine at all. If you're buying Mine primarily to turn Coppers into Silvers, you're probably making a mistake.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #134 on: April 21, 2014, 12:30:51 pm »
0

I'm genuinely curious to know if there have ever been simulations of Mine BM vs. BMU (no Colonies) where the effectiveness of prioritizing the mining to Copper->Silver is compared to prioritizing Silver->Gold. In the absense of discard attacks, the increased variance in mining Silver->Gold over Copper->Silver is non-zero but small. At the same time, Silver->Gold increases the chance that you have nothing to mine when Mine is in your hand, since gold cannot be turned into a better treasure.

I would always mine Copper->Silver first when I used to play, and am still temped to do the same in games without discard attacks.

Discard attacks are one good reason to want Mine, as is almost any sort of sifting at all. Also there are the various tricks you can do, as described by DG.

In the absence of any of those, you probably shouldn't be buying Mine at all. If you're buying Mine primarily to turn Coppers into Silvers, you're probably making a mistake.
At least the first one (maybe two) are better than silver in straight BM, though of course to be fair, this is virtually irrelevant.



Variance is I think generally good, particularly against discard attacks, though not against them, you have to weigh this against the possibility of having mine in a hand with no non-gold treasures. Colony games definitely swing to mine up the expensive ones, but... well, the whole question is very close to irrelevant, anyway.

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3846
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2437
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #135 on: April 21, 2014, 12:42:07 pm »
0

I'm genuinely curious to know if there have ever been simulations of Mine BM vs. BMU (no Colonies) where the effectiveness of prioritizing the mining to Copper->Silver is compared to prioritizing Silver->Gold. In the absense of discard attacks, the increased variance in mining Silver->Gold over Copper->Silver is non-zero but small. At the same time, Silver->Gold increases the chance that you have nothing to mine when Mine is in your hand, since gold cannot be turned into a better treasure.

I would always mine Copper->Silver first when I used to play, and am still temped to do the same in games without discard attacks.

Discard attacks are one good reason to want Mine, as is almost any sort of sifting at all. Also there are the various tricks you can do, as described by DG.

In the absence of any of those, you probably shouldn't be buying Mine at all. If you're buying Mine primarily to turn Coppers into Silvers, you're probably making a mistake.
At least the first one (maybe two) are better than silver in straight BM, though of course to be fair, this is virtually irrelevant.



Variance is I think generally good, particularly against discard attacks, though not against them, you have to weigh this against the possibility of having mine in a hand with no non-gold treasures. Colony games definitely swing to mine up the expensive ones, but... well, the whole question is very close to irrelevant, anyway.
It's all in the name of academic interest. I don't expect much from Mine-BM, except that it has a slight edge over BMU. But yeah, who cares about BMU these days anyway.

Thanks for the responses guys. I am satisfied.
Logged

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4085
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #136 on: April 22, 2014, 10:13:49 am »
+2

MarkowKette

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 213
  • Respect: +217
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #137 on: April 22, 2014, 10:58:13 am »
0

I think the most obvious comparison to bandit camp is a vanilla village + a gold in deck (from the first play on).
Yeah, that's not exactly the same as you can save up the spoils for a shuffle and because the average spoils per banditcamp is usually smaller than 1 because you can trigger reshuffles in the same turn you played a bandit camp and you can draw bandit camps dead.

I don't agree that Baker is that powerful. It's a pretty small build up for an engine at $5 it's still only a peddler variant. Coin tokens are a lot better then just a coin for the immediate benefit but unlike with Butcher it doesn't really change the way the card is used compared to its vanilla variant.
There are so many strong $5 cards that you usually want something else over it. The most game changing part of this is the setup coin token, which doesn't affect the power of the card itself.

For example in games with conspirator engine i'd often buy an ironmonger over a baker.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11808
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12846
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #138 on: April 22, 2014, 11:22:57 am »
+3

Count shouldn't be that low. I personally had it at #20 and even that is probably a bit too low.

I don't agree that Baker is that powerful. It's a pretty small build up for an engine at $5 it's still only a peddler variant. Coin tokens are a lot better then just a coin for the immediate benefit but unlike with Butcher it doesn't really change the way the card is used compared to its vanilla variant.
There are so many strong $5 cards that you usually want something else over it. The most game changing part of this is the setup coin token, which doesn't affect the power of the card itself.
I agree that Baker is overrated on this list (though it appears to be even higher in my ratings), but it is definitely used very differently than Peddler. If there's +buy, you can piledrive Bakers and get a virtual Province every turn until you're ready to end the game in a victory.

Also, the setup coin token does affect the power of the card itself. Imagine a Baker which gives 23847651898356 coin tokens instead of one as a setup effect, that effect would make Baker's top almost completely worthless (and a lot of other kingdom cards, too, but not all of them). The single coin token also affects things, on a much smaller scale.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 11:25:18 am by Awaclus »
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

silverspawn

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 5301
  • Shuffle iT Username: sty.silver
  • Respect: +3188
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #139 on: April 22, 2014, 11:25:45 am »
0

pfft... journeyman and catacombs are both better than rablle...

rest doesn't look too bad, though maybe vault is a little bit too high. was it really 12 ranks better last time?

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11808
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12846
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #140 on: April 22, 2014, 11:33:03 am »
0

pfft... journeyman and catacombs are both better than rablle...
They are great counters to Rabble, but the engine which works with Journeyman but doesn't work with Rabble is pretty rare. I find it a lot easier to imagine a situation where the attack slows your opponent down just enough to give you time to finish building your engine before greening.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

Eevee

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1010
  • Shuffle iT Username: Eevee
  • A wild Eevee appears!
  • Respect: +867
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #141 on: April 22, 2014, 11:35:22 am »
0

I like rabble over catacombs and journeyman, but all of bazaar, bandit camp and especially highway are stronger than baker.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #142 on: April 22, 2014, 11:38:27 am »
0

Quote
rest doesn't look too bad, though maybe vault is a little bit too high. was it really 12 ranks better last time?

On isotropic there used to be stats collected on the win rates for each card. For each player, you could also see their success rate with each card and how well they did compared to the average. Most top players at that time had a very high success rate with vault compared to the average player. It was about the only thing you could pick out across all the top players.
Logged

MarkowKette

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 213
  • Respect: +217
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #143 on: April 22, 2014, 12:13:10 pm »
0

Count shouldn't be that low. I personally had it at #20 and even that is probably a bit too low.

I don't agree that Baker is that powerful. It's a pretty small build up for an engine at $5 it's still only a peddler variant. Coin tokens are a lot better then just a coin for the immediate benefit but unlike with Butcher it doesn't really change the way the card is used compared to its vanilla variant.
There are so many strong $5 cards that you usually want something else over it. The most game changing part of this is the setup coin token, which doesn't affect the power of the card itself.
I agree that Baker is overrated on this list (though it appears to be even higher in my ratings), but it is definitely used very differently than Peddler. If there's +buy, you can piledrive Bakers and get a virtual Province every turn until you're ready to end the game in a victory.


Also, the setup coin token does affect the power of the card itself. Imagine a Baker which gives 23847651898356 coin tokens instead of one as a setup effect, that effect would make Baker's top almost completely worthless (and a lot of other kingdom cards, too, but not all of them). The single coin token also affects things, on a much smaller scale.

you are completely right, and i am aware of both of those effects. But if the setup coin token affects the power of baker on the board compared to other cards than usually in a negative way, as Baker itself cant really get much out of that benefit.
The cases where you can actually piledrive bakers without getting far behind are very rare i think that only happens with 5 cost gainers like University maybe with ironworks + highway too (only if there is no + buy).

I think the stockpile coin token plan rarely is that strong with baker. I think it happens a lot more with Candlestickmaker or Merchant guild. Engines are good because their buying power per turn increases not only linearly. But from the point on you stockpile the cointokens(assuming you only build up more bakers from that point this advantage from engine ofer BM is lost so you should only do that once you finished building (ok, that's not completely true as you should already start with the token saving once you get close to finish building but still that doesn't deny my argument)
So what i want to say is those kind of engines aren't very fast and while building the Bakers advantage over Peddler isn't gamechanging. And you wouldn't get a Peddler on 5 that often.

Quote
rest doesn't look too bad, though maybe vault is a little bit too high. was it really 12 ranks better last time?

On isotropic there used to be stats collected on the win rates for each card. For each player, you could also see their success rate with each card and how well they did compared to the average. Most top players at that time had a very high success rate with vault compared to the average player. It was about the only thing you could pick out across all the top players.

i don't think that is an argument for the card being strong. I actually think if the same result shows up for the lower tier players that tells us more about the power of the card.

For example i'm pretty sure that top players like Stef, SCSN or Wandering Winder have a very high success rate with a card like Secret Chamber, and a much worse success rate with a card like Cultist.
The reason is that cards that are good only rarely request a higher skill to be played correctly.
And we all know: Cultist is very strong and Secret Chamber is pretty weak all in all
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 12:37:20 pm by MarkowKette »
Logged

Mic Qsenoch

  • 2015 DS Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1709
  • Respect: +4329
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #144 on: April 22, 2014, 12:18:47 pm »
0

I agree that Baker is overrated on this list (though it appears to be even higher in my ratings), but it is definitely used very differently than Peddler. If there's +buy, you can piledrive Bakers and get a virtual Province every turn until you're ready to end the game in a victory all the real Provinces are gone and you lose.

Ninja'd by MarkowKette. Buying a bunch of Bakers just to stockpile coin tokens is a very weak strategy. Baker is too expensive for this to be effective often.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11808
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12846
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 3/6)
« Reply #145 on: April 22, 2014, 12:26:22 pm »
+1

I agree that Baker is overrated on this list (though it appears to be even higher in my ratings), but it is definitely used very differently than Peddler. If there's +buy, you can piledrive Bakers and get a virtual Province every turn until you're ready to end the game in a victory all the real Provinces are gone and you lose.

Ninja'd by MarkowKette. Buying a bunch of Bakers just to stockpile coin tokens is a very weak strategy. Baker is too expensive for this to be effective often.
Well, I was exaggerating. Obviously it's very slow to buy enough Bakers to actually win the game with just the coin tokens, but buying a couple of Bakers and saving the tokens for the late game is often worth it, and you can't do that with Peddler.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

c4master

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 167
  • Respect: +56
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #146 on: April 23, 2014, 02:39:44 am »
0

Rabble and Baker seem to be overrated. I'd rather buy a strong attack and a journeyman/Catacombs than two Rabbles. Baker combos pretty nicely with Butcher, but that's about it. Surely, the coin tokens are useful, but it's speculative whether these tokens will give you an extra VP card in the end. To make use of Baker, you need to save the tokens until you can buy something better. That means, you don't need the token right now. Most of the times you want to have $5 or something alike, which is not that easy to get without support (if you're saving the coin). Don't get me wrong, I still buy Bakers quite frequently, but it's not really changing a lot.

Oh, and Vault is way too low now. Maybe, most of us are biased by Vault-BM even though Vault can do so much more.
Logged

Qvist

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2400
  • Shuffle iT Username: Qvist
  • Respect: +4085
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 4/6)
« Reply #147 on: April 23, 2014, 05:32:48 am »
+10

Part 5

On a side note:
I'm dissappointed Counterfeit being so low. I rated at #13.


;D

ChocophileBenj

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 504
  • Respect: +575
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #148 on: April 23, 2014, 06:42:32 am »
0

First once again (I was first for the part 4, too... I've so much nothing-to-do, or rather I'm too lazy to go on my work)

I really live on another planet since I quitted playing Dominion, because I thought Soothsayer would be even better than Witch !
Logged
Chocolate is like victory points in Dominion. Both taste good but they'll hurt you if you eat too much of it instead of something else in your early days.

c4master

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 167
  • Respect: +56
    • View Profile
Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $5 cards (Part 5/6)
« Reply #149 on: April 23, 2014, 07:03:23 am »
0

Soothsayer is a bit overrated for the curse dealing, I guess. It's really not that strong.

On the other hand, Apprentice is just such a great card. It's a pity, it's not voted in the top 10.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 ... 12  All
 

Page created in 0.139 seconds with 21 queries.