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[JacquesTheBard]

I thought Catacombs and Journeyman were both considered very good terminal draw. Has estimation of them changed of late?

[serakfalcon]

I thought Catacombs and Journeyman were both considered very good terminal draw. Has estimation of them changed of late?

They are pretty good terminal draw. It's just that, there are things more powerful than terminal draw alone...

[florrat]

Where's Embassy? Is it really better than Journeyman or Catacombs? I doubt it.

I'm also missing Count, which should be in the bottom half, IMO.

[Awaclus]

Where's Embassy? Is it really better than Journeyman or Catacombs? I doubt it.

Yes. It junks your opponent's deck when you buy it.

[MarkowKette]

I'd say Catacombs and Journeyman are a little better than Embassy in engines, but you always have to consider Embassy - BM on a board with Embassy. I think people still underestimate that. The difference between Catacombs/JM and Embassy for Big money is huge. I think this alone is enough reason to have Embassy higher than Catacombs and JM. I even think it's better than Vault which we also havn't seen yet as the benefit of a silver is way lower than the benefit of Vault as you get that on each Vault play.

[LastFootnote]

You shouldn't buy Coppers for coin tokens right away, but in the end game Merchant Guild reads "+1$, +1 Buy, Gain 2 Coin Tokens, Gain a Copper", so pretty similar to one option of Count.

Ahem. *pushes glasses up on nose* I believe you mean, "in the end game Merchant Guild reads "+1$, take 2 Coin Tokens, gain a Copper." After all, you're already using the +1 Buy on buying that Copper. You don't get both "+1 Buy" AND "gain a Copper".

[BadAssMutha]

I think Treasury is about at the right place, as a card that is a bit too slow on some boards, but can be really nice on others for consistently hitting $4 or $5 instead of $3 or $4, which can be a huge difference. I wonder, though, does Treasury really do better in Colony games? The paltry +$1 doesn't seem to be worth going after when you need to hit $11, sort of how a lot of terminal silver actions lose some power in Colony games. Sure, you could buy and stack a bunch of Treasuries, but decks tend to be a little bigger in Colony games, so once you've gone green, it could be a while to line those Treasuries up again.

Also, I see people say watch out for discard attacks with topdeckers like Treasury, Scheme, or Alchemist, but it's really only necessary in games with discard attacks AND some form deck inspection (reveal top card of your deck). Unless a reveal forces a shuffle, it doesn't matter if whatever you're trying to topdeck winds up in the discard before or during your opponent's turn.

[pacovf]

Also, I see people say watch out for discard attacks with topdeckers like Treasury, Scheme, or Alchemist, but it's really only necessary in games with discard attacks AND some form deck inspection (reveal top card of your deck). Unless a reveal forces a shuffle, it doesn't matter if whatever you're trying to topdeck winds up in the discard before or during your opponent's turn.

I'm not exactly sure if I understand your point about top deckers, since in most cases when you top deck something it will be in your hand by the time your opponent's turn comes around. However, there is more than one reason to be careful with topdeckers when discarding attacks are around. If you manage to get five or more treasuries/alchemists, then a discard attack is so much more powerful, because it's forcing you to discard strong cards instead of, say, coppers or VP cards.

The other problem is with cantrips in general, as most of these are. If you only have non-drawing cards in your hand, a militia leaves you with the best 3 cards out of five. If you have five cantrips in hand (say, peddlers), then you end up with whatever benefit three of those cantrips give and three RANDOM cards. To give a simple example, if you've got two vagrants, two silvers, and an estate before a militia hits, then those vagrants are hurting you, because your decision is not as well informed as if you didn't have those vagrants in your deck and had drawn whatever they are going to draw anyway.

[markusin]

Treasuries don't help you get Colonies directly, but they help you get more expensive engine pieces. Colony games typically give engines more time to set up, so Treasury has more time to do its thing.

[sudgy]

I'm also missing Count, which should be in the bottom half, IMO.

Count is actually a pretty good card.  It's very versatile.

[BadAssMutha]

Also, I see people say watch out for discard attacks with topdeckers like Treasury, Scheme, or Alchemist, but it's really only necessary in games with discard attacks AND some form deck inspection (reveal top card of your deck). Unless a reveal forces a shuffle, it doesn't matter if whatever you're trying to topdeck winds up in the discard before or during your opponent's turn.

I guess my point here about the topdeckers is that people might be hesitant to put stuff back on the deck for fear of discarding it. For example, in a Militia game, someone might only put 3 Treasuries back on top instead of 5 of them. That strategy usually isn't necessary, since the Treasuries would be in the discard when you shuffle either way. The better move is to topdeck all the Treasuries, and discard only 2 when and if the time comes. The only games that this isn't true is ones with deck inspection, which could trigger a reshuffle before discarding the Treasuries.

I find it's not so much the fact that you had to discard your good cards (that can happen by chance anyway), it's really that the cards are costed in such a way as to take into account the topdecking, and with the discard attacks, you sometimes wind up paying for an ability that you can't use.

I agree that cantrips can be less useful with discard attacks, since they reduce the available information. That said, I don't think there are any topdecking cantrips that wouldn't be worth the decrease in information. I would gladly put an Alchemist or Treasury back on my deck at the cost of not knowing what the next card is. I suppose Walled Village might be an exception if I've been keeping good track of my deck and know there aren't anymore actions coming, as well as weak Schemed cantrips like Vagrant.

[pacovf]

I think we agree completely. Of course you should always topdeck all the treasuries you can, but if there are discarding attacks, then it's probaby not worth to buy a fourth treasury, given that their cost, as you say it, already takes into account its topdecking.

My point about the cantrips was that, even though we usually say that a cantrip can't hurt your deck as long a you don't draw it dead, they also hurt you a bit in the case of discarding attacks. Most of the time their extra benefits make up for the lack of information, but that effect is still there, and when you bought that card you paid the cost of a card that doesn't interfere with the rest of your deck (for example, the odds of matching you different cards), so maybe you would have done better buying something else.

[flies]

Jester is way too high.  Its attack is super weak.  Most of the time, you're sending over a copper, which just isn't worth $5, and when it passes curses, it also cleans up the top of your opponent's deck.  As a gainer in multiplayer, well then it can be okay, but only on boards with some trashing and an engine and only until piles run out.  The cursing is most reliable in the endgame when it matters least.  Jester is a very weak card in 2p and I had it ten+ ranks lower.  Wth?

[HiveMindEmulator]

^Jester is less of an attack and more of a gainer. You really don't want to hit Copper, but in games with good trashing, it's very often gaining you an engine piece while giving $2, which is pretty good.

[Jdaki]

Also, conversely to the "clearing up" when Jester hands out a curse, when you gain, the opponent effectively has to discard. And copper junking is pretty bad- especially with the +2coin.

[JacquesTheBard]

Jester is at its best when given Spy-Attacks to work with, especially Scrying Pool. Easy gaining of any engine component is not to be taken lightly.

[AJD]

I'd love to see someone do a compare-and-contrast of Jester with Rogue; they seem to have a lot in common in terms of what they actually do.

[serakfalcon]

I'd love to see someone do a compare-and-contrast of Jester with Rogue; they seem to have a lot in common in terms of what they actually do.

Jester: great at gaining random cards from your opponent and/or mildly junking their deck. Only as good as your opponent.

Rogue: trash a card from your opponent's deck so they can steal it back the next turn.
Unless you can play rogue many times per turn, problematic. On the other hand, Rogue is also nice as an assist for trash-for-benefit where you can pull the cards you trashed back. (Duchies from rebuild, or border villages for an extra on-gain).

[Schneau]

I'd love to see someone do a compare-and-contrast of Jester with Rogue; they seem to have a lot in common in terms of what they actually do.

At one point I was planning on writing an article comparing cost $5 cards that have +$2 and gain a card. This includes Jester, Rogue, Haggler, and Explorer. I see these cards as variations on Workshop + $2, with different limitations on what card you can gain. I never got around to writing such an article, but I'd be interested in seeing one if someone else wants to.

[terminalCopper]

I'd love to see someone do a compare-and-contrast of Jester with Rogue; they seem to have a lot in common in terms of what they actually do.

At one point I was planning on writing an article comparing cost $5 cards that have +$2 and gain a card. This includes Jester, Rogue, Haggler, and Explorer. I see these cards as variations on Workshop + $2, with different limitations on what card you can gain. I never got around to writing such an article, but I'd be interested in seeing one if someone else wants to.

You might also compare them to Trading Post or Mine, if you interprete them as follows:

Trading Post: +2$, gain a silver, trash 2 cards
Mine: +2$, gain a silver, trash a copper (or similar ...)

[silverspawn]

I'd love to see someone do a compare-and-contrast of Jester with Rogue; they seem to have a lot in common in terms of what they actually do.

At one point I was planning on writing an article comparing cost $5 cards that have +$2 and gain a card. This includes Jester, Rogue, Haggler, and Explorer. I see these cards as variations on Workshop + $2, with different limitations on what card you can gain. I never got around to writing such an article, but I'd be interested in seeing one if someone else wants to.

You might also compare them to Trading Post or Mine, if you interprete them as follows:

Trading Post: +2$, gain a silver, trash 2 cards
Mine: +2$, gain a silver, trash a copper (or similar ...)

trading post: absolutely, mine: no, it's +1$

[liopoil]

Mine (the $5 action card with that name, that is) is: +1 coin, reveal a silver or copper from your hand, gain a peddler.

There are only 5 million edge cases to this, many of which aren't even that edgy.

[Marcory]

Mine doesn't gain any cards (unless you're Mining Spoils); it merely upgrades them. It also usually only gains $1.

Trading Post actually reduces your deck size (barring 1-card hands and Fortress), and frequently trashes Copper, so it's rare for it to get $2.

These cards are thus in a different category Jester/Rogue/Haggler/Explorer, all of which give $2 and frequently make you gain a card. There are edge cases: Jester vs. a 5 card deck or when it deals junk; Rogue when it attacks; Haggler when you don't buy anything; Explorer when the Silvers/Golds are out, when you have Watchtower in hand, etc, but these edge cases don't detract from the overall similarity of these cards.

Explorer is like Trading Post in that it is a silver gainer, but that's a different point of comparison. Similarly, there's lots of $5 cards (Dame Silvia, Venture, Stash, Festival, etc) that give +$2, but don't gain a card; they're also in a different class than the named four cards.

[terminalCopper]

mine: no, it's +1$

Mine doesn't gain any cards (unless you're Mining Spoils); it merely upgrades them. It also usually only gains $1.

Mine (the $5 action card with that name, that is) is: +1 coin, reveal a silver or copper from your hand, gain a peddler.

I am aware of the "standard interpretation" of mine saying "+1$ right now, upgrade your treasure".
But if you read it as "+2$, gain a silver, trash a copper", this is 100% true as well (if you choose the copper--->silver thing).
"+2$" and "trash a copper" net together "+1$", and yeah, mine definitely gains a card (after trashing one, so you are right, that in the result you have the same number of cards).

I don't want to argue which variant is correct, because both are
And it's true, that mine and Trading Post are bought for different reasons than the other four cards. I have chosen this weird interpretation to point out two things:

Comparing Mine to Trading Post, "Trashing Copper + having other options" is replaced by "Trash two cards"
Comparing Trading Post to Explorer, "Trash two cards" is replaced by the option to gain a gold if you have a province.

I know that these kind of comparisons don't provide a concrete result which card is better, but I like them anyway, just my two cents

[HiveMindEmulator]

I like to think of Mint as +$2, gain a copy of a treasure, -$2 and Merchant Ship as +$2, gain a card, return it to the supply, +$2 next turn.