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Author Topic: Engine over BM  (Read 8712 times)

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Artemian

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Engine over BM
« on: April 09, 2014, 03:56:34 am »
+6

Hi, I am a little bit newcomer and I have question which doesnīt allows me to sleep well :)) .

I am watching streams for a few weeks now and I noticed, that almost every player prefers engine over BM strategy (in most plays). Now to question.

I also noticed, that some games ends around turn 18 or even after turn 18. Thats not surprise when you play with attacks, but sometimes itīs even without attacks (these games often ends on emptying piles (with for example 6 provinces in play).
But even pure BM strategy can get 4 provinces in 16 turns. How could you defeat BM with engine mentioned before? (I like streams, but this is thing I just donīt understand :))) -- I have read engine strategies, but nobody actually answered my question :D ).

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terminalCopper

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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2014, 04:09:48 am »
0

Three answers come to my mind:

1.) The engines were played poorly.

2.) The engines didn't focus on getting provinces, but on having a strategically better position, which means to have a better chance on three-piling with a VP lead.

3.) If you have an engine that gets 4 Provs in ca. 16 moves, it might still be better to go for it than to play a BM-strategy which gets 4 provs in 15 moves because of flexibility and end-game-control. An average of 16 moves doesn't mean "16 moves most of the time", it will often mean luckily crushing BM in 14 moves or, with bad luck, trying to get 4 provs and 2 duchies in 18 moves, hoping that the BM-player doesn't get the fifth prov at time.



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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2014, 04:42:55 am »
+1

Also, even if you can get 4 Provinces in 16 turns with big money, it doesn't mean that you always should (you don't want to buy the penultimate Province if your opponent is ahead on score).
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2014, 08:30:22 am »
+38

Two decks with five Highways might take 18 turns to end the game. One deck with 8-10 Highways might take 13 turns.

The general situation is: lots of engines require large numbers of specific cards to achieve maximum speed. If you don't contest important engine cards, your opponent can runaway with the game. When two players contest all the engine pieces, the decks that you end up with are often mediocre, but it was necessary to not get destroyed by the uncontested engine. There are lots of engine pieces that lead to this situation (Minion, Highway, Grand Market, King's Court, Villages, Bridge, Hunting Party, Lab, Stables, Scrying Pool, and many others)

The other big issue is that 4 Provinces is usually not enough points. There's usually a stack of Duchies for the engine player to catch up with, not to mention all the alt-VP cards.

But you are correct, sometimes people are just spinning wheels trying to build engines that don't work very well.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 08:48:32 am by Mic Qsenoch »
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MarkowKette

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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2014, 09:27:48 am »
+4

In addition to what has already been named there is another very important reason.
If an engine wins by turn 20 on a three-pile ending without any provinces, that doesn't mean it will be beaten by a big-money strategy. The decision of how much you want to build your engine is extremely dependant on what your opponent does.
If your opponent mirror's you and you are ahead you can freely build some more to ensure your engine consistency. If your opponent starts greening early you will only build your engine as far as you have to.

Example: a simple pretty good drawing your deck engine with +buy.

Case 1: One player plays Big Money and starts buying provinces as soon as he can and the other builds the engine up to double province turns. That second player will probably win.

Case 2: Both players build the engine up to double province and one even builds up to double province+ duchy (this is a bit tricky but let's assume that player wins)

If the engine builds up to double Province + Duchy  (lets say that takes one extra turn compared to only getting to double province turns) it might lose to Big Money though because the game is not long enough to capitalize from the extra building.
In our Case 2 the game is long enough on the other hand.

you can even modify case 2 so much that both players wait with the greening until the other player does the first step in that direction because the one turn extra building gives them the advantage they need. In that case it will probably end on a three-pile victory for one of the players.

What i want to show with this is: If your Engine doesn't have 4 Provinces by turn 18 that does usually not mean it wouldn't have been capable of having 4 Provinces by turn 14.

//edit: i guess what i wrote is already named by terminal copper in  answer 2 but i felt that there is a need to explain that one a little more detailed for a new player.


« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 10:24:05 am by MarkowKette »
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jomini

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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2014, 02:07:55 pm »
0

1. What are the total possible points out there? With colonies (available in what 15% of games), VP chips, and Alt-VP, the province pile is not the be all, end all of the game. I would hazard a guess that in the majority of random games, you have some way to beat a 5-3 split beyond just 3-piling.

2. Engines, much more than Big money, can destroy/steal enemy points. Sure if we both go for engines, adding in some Sabs isn't that great. But if you follow stock big money, the first 4 or 5 provinces come quick while the last few come really slowly. This gives me a lot of time to take "poor" attacks like Sab, Rogue, or Knights and kill off BM's golds & duchies, if not provinces. If I end up engine vs engine, it might never get to the point where adding in the attack and stalling the game while I wrack up duchies is viable. The mere possibility that one person can get thwacked repetitively should change strategies.

3. Engines should be built up to their maximum or until the other guy starts going for green. Take something like Nv/Bridge. It isn't a proper engine, but if you end up with a 5/5 split on both you get $12 coin with 5 cost reduction, this in turn gives you 4 provinces and 2 duchies as your max payout. That might handily beat BM. But against another Bridge/Nv guy, particularly if he can toss in some cheap +buy like Pawn, Market Square, Candlestick maker, etc., it can still mean a loss. For extremely high yield engines, you have to make different tradeoffs so that either you get enough points in one turn to lock out your opponent or if you do get points - be sure your opponent can't build past you for the win. And this does have a big effect with some cards. City is an obvious trap - you want to trigger your big pile of Cities, but not your opponents' (as he will then pile something else out and buy an estate for the win).

4. Engines allow a lot more flexibility for dealing with what the other guy does. Take something like Envoy vs Spice merchant. If you go Envoy early, you are pretty much committed to BM (and Envoy is a strong BM enabler). But what if you have a setup where BM > engine > slog > BM (BM can get 50% + 1 of the points before the engine, the engine can block the slog by buying Silk Roads and turning them into engine components via Upgrade, but the slog can build up monster Silk Roads that trounce the Provinces by the time BM gets all the provinces). You want to delay your decision for as long as possible. So you open Spice merchant. You thin out some copper, if your opponent drops into BM, you go slog. Your opponent knows this, they don't go BM. So they buy cards that don't work with BM, you then either drop into BM (if you still can) or into engine (as it beats slog). If you need to make a quick transition to mass Silk roads, engine isn't that bad. Yeah terminal draw can hurt, but most other things +buy, +actions, etc. don't actively hurt. If you have TfB, you might even cannibalize your problem components into slog cards. All of this delay just makes the real race start later - you spend more time doing suboptimal things, but things that don't lock you into a losing choice.

Because at the end of the day, you only care about the relative score. If you aren't facing BM, then don't play against it. If your opponent starts building a deck to win the race to 4 provinces when you can handle mass duchies better, you've just won.


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AdamH

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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2014, 09:30:41 pm »
0

I am watching streams for a few weeks now

It's awesome that you're watching Dominion streams! I'm always curious how people find Dominion streams who aren't from these forums -- do you mind sharing how you found streams and whose you were watching? I don't recognize you from my stream, though maybe I should.

Also, if there's something in a stream you'd like to have clarified, speak up in the chat! I know when I stream I don't mind explaining things on a lower level, and I can't think of anyone else I know of who streams that would (unless they were playing a tournament match). Usually there are lots of people in the chat who can explain, too  :D
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flies

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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2014, 11:46:56 am »
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I think it would be very interesting to look at the particular cases that Artemian is referring to in the OP.  Artemian, can you link us to them?  In general, I think it would be interesting to analyze games where money beats engine, or where both players pick weak engines, and, perhaps especially, borderline cases of the above.  So, please link to such games here, ppl!

The general consensus is that engines usually beat Big Money strategies.  There are many exceptions, and there are deck types besides engines and BM (and considerable blurring between these types - combos aside), but engine-y strategies beat money-ish strategies more often than not.  This is a source of "rational bias" against playing money. 

There are also sources of "irrational bias" against BM.  (Here, a "rational bias" is one designed to help you win, and an "irrational bias" is one that furthers some aim besides winning.)  For many top-level players, including myself, engines are more fun to play than money.  (Calling bias toward fun "irrational" is certainly questionable.)  I know that I feel almost guilty when I choose to play money when some sort of engine is present.  I think this is because I feel especially rotten when I lose this way (even worse when I didn't see the engine) whereas I feel kind of cheap when I win this way; these two together make for a rather potent system of negative reinforcement.  (I suppose it goes without saying that winning that way isn't actually "cheap"; winning by picking the winning strategy is just strong play.)

If you want to win, you have judge the strength of an engine over money, which is basically a gut feel thing that comes from experience.  WW's engine article http://dominionstrategy.com/2013/01/23/the-five-fundamental-deck-types-the-engine/ helps a lot as well (I'd add "draw" to his list of "what's good for engines").
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soulnet

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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2014, 12:40:02 pm »
0

Treasures are boring, Actions are fun.

But mostly, with the others said.
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markusin

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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2014, 05:33:20 pm »
+4

Treasures are boring, Actions are fun.

But mostly, with the others said.
There is elegance in the simplicity of treasures, but the best strategy is often the engine played optimally. I'm at the stage where I try to put together even the most unlikely of engines just to see if they can actually be pulled off. I feel like I learn more from a failed engine than going for BM and losing.
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assemble_me

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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2014, 03:52:40 pm »
+1

I am watching streams for a few weeks now

It's awesome that you're watching Dominion streams! I'm always curious how people find Dominion streams who aren't from these forums -- do you mind sharing how you found streams and whose you were watching? I don't recognize you from my stream, though maybe I should.

Also, if there's something in a stream you'd like to have clarified, speak up in the chat! I know when I stream I don't mind explaining things on a lower level, and I can't think of anyone else I know of who streams that would (unless they were playing a tournament match). Usually there are lots of people in the chat who can explain, too  :D

OK, so after one year of being registered here I'm breaking my silence. Off topic right from the start, well I guess the mods are nice here, right ;)?
So, Hi Adam, maybe you recognize me as well, I've posted something on one of your youtube stream vids these days.
I've started playing Dominion in December 2011. After a few months I started looking for ressources about cards and strategies on the web. Once I had passed the German ones I moved on to the English pages and I've found dominionstrategy. I've read lots of articles and I think, one was written by Wandering Winder and he added logs AND videos! So that was in December 2012. I thought it was really awesome, for me as rather newbieish player to see such a great player! I think from there on I've watched all of WW's videos and even around half a year backwards to mid 2012 (I've been really glad he joined Goko after taking his Iso closedown break). So I ended up watching lots and lots more games than I've played online myself.
I've actually watched some other streams in-between and just recently found your channel and think it's really enjoyable. Quite entertaining, so I guess I'm keeping that up :). I've just wondered about the chat you're talking about as I coudn't find it yet. Although I'm not quite sure if I actually dare to join it.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 03:56:44 pm by assemble_me »
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AdamH

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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2014, 04:05:00 pm »
+1

I am watching streams for a few weeks now

It's awesome that you're watching Dominion streams! I'm always curious how people find Dominion streams who aren't from these forums -- do you mind sharing how you found streams and whose you were watching? I don't recognize you from my stream, though maybe I should.

Also, if there's something in a stream you'd like to have clarified, speak up in the chat! I know when I stream I don't mind explaining things on a lower level, and I can't think of anyone else I know of who streams that would (unless they were playing a tournament match). Usually there are lots of people in the chat who can explain, too  :D

OK, so after one year of being registered here I'm breaking my silence. Off topic right from the start, well I guess the mods are nice here, right ;)?
So, Hi Adam, maybe you recognize me as well, I've posted something on one of your youtube stream vids these days.
I've started playing Dominion in December 2011. After a few months I started looking for ressources about cards and stretegies on the web. Once I had passed the German ones I moved on to the English pages and I've found dominionstrategy. I've read lots of articles and I think, one was written by Wandering Winder and he added logs AND videos! So that was in December 2012. I thought it was really awesome, for me as rather newbieish player to see such a great player! I think from there on I've watched all of WW's videos and even around half a year backwards to mid 2012 (I've been really glad he joined Goko after taking his Iso closedown break). So I ended up watching lots and lots more games than I've played online myself.
I've actually watched some other streams in-between and just recently found your stream and think it's really enjoyable. Quite entertaining, so I guess I'm keeping that up :). I've just wondered about the chat you're talking about as I coudn't find it yet. Although I'm not quite sure if I actually dare to join it.

Ah yes, I've seen your comments recently :D it's good to see you here! I'm a WW fanboy myself too.

So I'm guessing you've been watching the highlights and past broadcasts on Twitch, all of those were streamed live at one point in time, and if you're watching the live stream there is a chat on that page that I can see and respond to. The link in my signature (Live Streaming Dominion on Twitch) goes to that page, though when I'm not streaming it doesn't show any video.

If you want to catch me live, there are a couple of ways to get notified of that: you can follow me on Twitch (which requires you to register for a Twitch account, but so does using the chat). You can also check out the Live Streaming Thread and the GokoDom Live Streaming Thread -- people (including myself) usually post there when they're about to go live, or planning to go live at a certain time, so if you tag those threads or sign up for notifications you can be alerted that way. Also, I stream on Tuesdays around 8PM Eastern (GMT-4). You can watch live and stay silent in the chat (without even signing up for Twitch, even!) if that's what your prefer.

I've been told that I may not be the best Dominion player who makes videos, but I'm the most entertaining. I choose to take that as a compliment :P

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MarkowKette

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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2014, 04:12:48 pm »
+2


I've been told that I may not be the best Dominion player who makes videos, but I'm the most entertaining. I choose to take that as a compliment :P


You can't really take that as an insult when you are competing with Wandering Winder :D
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assemble_me

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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2014, 04:25:51 pm »
0

Also, I stream on Tuesdays around 8PM Eastern (GMT-4). You can watch live and stay silent in the chat (without even signing up for Twitch, even!) if that's what your prefer.

I've been told that I may not be the best Dominion player who makes videos, but I'm the most entertaining. I choose to take that as a compliment :P
Well, what can I say. I'm hoping to hit 5K on Goko one day be to allowed to play a role in your videos here, I guess that might be still far away, if at all... ;).
So I'd really love to watch your stream live, but I'm from Germany (GMT+2). So If I see things right, that would be at 2 AM, and I guess that's not happening unless I have a day off. But I keep an eye opened on the live streaming threads.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 04:29:24 pm by assemble_me »
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AdamH

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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2014, 04:29:07 pm »
0

Also, I stream on Tuesdays around 8PM Eastern (GMT-4). You can watch live and stay silent in the chat (without even signing up for Twitch, even!) if that's what your prefer.

I've been told that I may not be the best Dominion player who makes videos, but I'm the most entertaining. I choose to take that as a compliment :P
Well, what can I say. I'm hoping to hit 5K on Goko one day be to allowed to play a role on your videos here, I guess that might be still far away, if at all... ;).
So I'd really love to watch your stream live, but I'm from Germany (GMT+2). So If I see things right, that would be at 2 AM, and I guess that's not happening unless I have a day off. But I keep an eye opened on the live streaming threads.

No minimum rating is required to play with me :) Some weekends I'm able to play during the day, but the next two weekends won't be it for me.

...and there's a decent chance that this week's stream will be earlier in the day.

There can be plenty of opportunities if you're up for it!
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2014, 06:36:37 pm »
0


I've been told that I may not be the best Dominion player who makes videos, but I'm the most entertaining. I choose to take that as a compliment :P


You can't really take that as an insult when you are competing with Wandering Winder :D
Didn't Stef stream his last GD match?

MarkowKette

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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2014, 06:48:13 pm »
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No, but he said he's going to stream this one on wednesday.
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AdamH

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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2014, 08:36:13 pm »
+4

No, but he said he's going to stream this one on wednesday.

I have my calendar marked with little hearts and stars.
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c4master

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Re: Engine over BM
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2014, 09:01:19 am »
+1


I've been told that I may not be the best Dominion player who makes videos, but I'm the most entertaining. I choose to take that as a compliment :P


You can't really take that as an insult when you are competing with Wandering Winder :D

Well, winning against SheCan'tSayNo doesn't exactly underline that he is not the best player in the world. ;)

Double negation ftw ;)

------------

On topic: I had about the same issue 2 months ago. I felt like there was nearly always a BM-strategy that can do 4 provinces within 12 turns. By watching a lot of Adams videos (these are my favorites) and by playing a bit by myself, I found out, that engines just don't have to compete this. If you can double Province by turn 14 , you're likely to win just by denying duchies because the Money player will stall and not hit two more Provinces within the next 4 turns. Besides, there are often alternative VP-cards.

Anyways, MarkovKette and Mic Qsenoch have said a lot of remarkle things about why engines are usually great.

In real life, I play lots of 4-player games (sometimes even 5 players), and here BM is much more dominant. Piles can run out so easily, that you cannot build so much. This leads to weaker engines and thus prefers BM and highly prefers slogs. You can get 3 curses before your second shuffle. This is devastating.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 09:09:36 am by c4master »
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