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[qdread]

(Dunno if anyone still posts here but I will give it a shot anyway.)
I've been playing innovation for about half a year now. . . I have the real-life cards for the base set and Echoes, and that's all I've played on Isotropic as well, where I've worked myself up to between level 15-20. I haven't trusted myself to start any games with Figures or Cities, not wanting to put the effort into learning so many new cards.

I was curious what people's opinion is on:
(1) how much additional effort it takes to play a game with figures and/or cities given the added complexity
(2) whether either of them make the game more fun
(3) whether the dominant strategies change radically, like how adding Echoes tends to change the strategy from a scoring-heavy blitz in base-only to more of a long game focusing on splaying and building giant stacks.

Anyway, if anyone still posts here I'd love to hear people's opinions, just curious before I take the plunge and get slaughtered for my first several dozen Figures games!

[timchen]

I don't play cities so I cannot speak for that, but for figures:
(1) much less effort to learn comparing to echoes to play at a reasonable/mediocre level (depends on how you define the level)
(2) more fun than echoes
(3) the strategy does change a lot

Unlike echoes, I don't think you have to be very familiar with figures cards to play or enjoy. This is because there is no way to draw them consistently so it is almost impossible (at least I haven't figured out a way) to hunt for the card you want efficiently. It is more like seeing what you get and try to make best use of it. Also unlike echoes which was created with a different rule set in mind, there are less broken cards or broken strategies (ie, stack and splay FTW!)

One fun aspect is that some mediocre cards becomes pretty good at later stage in game because sharing them draw you a figures card. Icon dominance is less important as well for the same reason as well as lots of "attacking" effects are not written as demands and sometimes are not even sharable by being inspires.

That being said, it still helps to have a rough idea how each stack of figure cards is behaving. For me, it is really important to know that early figure cards are really hit & miss so it doesn't really matter that much if you are drawing them or not. There are helpful cards in age 3 and 4 but no big game changers I think. Age 5 is monster though, so try to set up your board so that you can start to draw them when you reaches the age, or to make sure your opponent cannot draw them easily when he is there.

Anyway, back to the original topic, I think figures is plainly more fun to play than echoes, especially for new players. Stop worrying and wreck some fun!

[qdread]

Yeah, my girlfriend and I just played a couple of games with base+figures. She kicked my ass 3 out of 4 times... I definitely agree that it is more fun than Echoes, at least at first, although I can see how it would be frustrating after a while because it almost punishes you for building up a solid tableau with lots of splays and icons (can't easily get a sharing bonus), and because the card-drawing mechanism is dramatically more luck-based. Good to know which ages are worth setting up for, I did notice some power 5's there.

[timchen]

Yeah, maybe it depends on your taste. I just feel that memorizing 100+ cards from base is already enough for me. It's a very good selling point for me that it does not help as tremendously as in base or echoes to know precisely what the cards are. In a few echoes games with more experienced players, seeing them hunting for cards I don't even know and abuse those cards just throws me off. Also I am less toward "building a mega board" style.

[ipofanes]

Teching ahead quickly is more important than in base, and definitely more than in echoes. Splaying is definitely less important.

Once your opponent is at Age 7 you need good reasons to gain a basic achievement as your opponent might draw one of those "I win" figures.

Cities share one problem with Echoes, namely that you'll collect achievements for things you want to do anyway, and some are just trivial (like being the first to splay thanks to a city icon). This takes away from the fun. My guess is that no place will end up as the Alchemy of Innovation: The last expansion to recommend, while still interesting.

I do think expansions make the game less random. At least ksasaki earned his rank by mostly playing with 2+ expansions. While I might be able to beat him in base only with a lucky streak of clothing vs monochromicity I don't stand a chance with echoes and no place.

[Lekkit]

I am not a super fan of Figures. It's my least favorite expansion. That said, it's a fun expansion. And it changes the game a lot.  To me the largest threshold was learning base. Then the first expansion (In my case Echoes). The second and third expansion wasn't that hard to learn. At least not the mechanics. Trying them all out at once sounds kind of like suicide, though.

[ksasaki]

Figures was a big jump for me.  Yes the sharing does add a new wrinkle, but I feel like it makes the game more balanced.  You know how in base how an early metalworking / clothing gives your opponent 1-3 or 1-4 and now they are just spamming pottery while you sit there helpless because they have the leaf lead?  Well now each of those achievements gives you figures to use.  I feel the same way in echoes but not in a scoring sense.  If someone has built up a powerful board of echoes (I'm looking at you blue splay left stack of doom), it becomes very difficult to do anything because they are basically getting 7-8 actions worth for your paltry 3-4.  The inspires are great too, because you can chain them and even if you are way behind in symbols.  I think E+F is the most balanced configuration of innovation.

Cities is not actually that hard to learn, the new achievements are simple to understand, and cities basically "endorse" other cards, which means you activate it twice (second activation not shared even if behind in symbols).  Endorsement is ungodly powerful with old base favorites like fermenting or paper.  It's fun when you're ahead, but it can be a drag if you fall behind.  I'm talking about all four at once.  Even those figures bonus draws seem paltry compared to the power of endorsement, because now they are using that uber powerful echoes stack 3 times in a turn.

I never play without echoes anymore: any game without echoes just seems like a scorefest.  But any game w/ echoes is a power fest.  So I guess it depends on what you like to do more.  Personally I like to build a massive board of death.  But that's just me the optimization player...

[ipofanes]

Yes the sharing does add a new wrinkle, but I feel like it makes the game more balanced.  You know how in base how an early metalworking / clothing gives your opponent 1-3 or 1-4 and now they are just spamming pottery while you sit there helpless because they have the leaf lead?  Well now each of those achievements gives you figures to use.

You are praising the "gain figure when sharing" mechanism, but then expanding your argument on "gain figure upon opponent's basic achievements"?

When playing "all four" I notice that you (ksasaki) are not caring for basic achievements at all anymore, rather raking in all the incidental achievements that come with your power board. Having basic achievements completely fall by the wayside sounds a bit narrowing, it's like playing Dominion with Goons engine without ever having to pay the price of a clobbered deck. I still keep telling to myself that No Place is in beta and a final version will include achievements which involve a bit of a sacrifice, as the basic ones (one turn) or Figures (your hand).

[timchen]

Does anyone know if No Place is still an ongoing project, or is it just dead?

[qdread]

I never play without echoes anymore: any game without echoes just seems like a scorefest.  But any game w/ echoes is a power fest.  So I guess it depends on what you like to do more.  Personally I like to build a massive board of death.  But that's just me the optimization player...

Thanks for the insights. . . When we play echoes in real life it is fun but definitely not relaxing. It requires twice as much concentration as the base set because there are so many more potential ways you can inadvertently "break the rules" by failing to trigger an effect, or even claim a special achievement. Figure karmas might have that problem too but at least you can only have 1 per player in most cases, no matter how splayed your stacks.
After having played the 2 expansions, I prefer switching the expansions up from game to game. . . the Dominion analogy is kind of apt, if every board had Goons it would not be the exciting and rare opportunity to try out a different strategy, it would just be the default game strategy (like going for wheat and ore in Settlers every time).

[markusin]

I never play without echoes anymore: any game without echoes just seems like a scorefest.  But any game w/ echoes is a power fest.  So I guess it depends on what you like to do more.  Personally I like to build a massive board of death.  But that's just me the optimization player...

Thanks for the insights. . . When we play echoes in real life it is fun but definitely not relaxing. It requires twice as much concentration as the base set because there are so many more potential ways you can inadvertently "break the rules" by failing to trigger an effect, or even claim a special achievement. Figure karmas might have that problem too but at least you can only have 1 per player in most cases, no matter how splayed your stacks.
After having played the 2 expansions, I prefer switching the expansions up from game to game. . . the Dominion analogy is kind of apt, if every board had Goons it would not be the exciting and rare opportunity to try out a different strategy, it would just be the default game strategy (like going for wheat and ore in Settlers every time).

Aha! So going for wheat and ore really is the solution to Settlers of Catan?

I really have to get back into playing Innovation. Such a fun game. Echoes really feels tough to master, but much more deep than just base. I've played with Figures once or twice. Figures seems much more about making the best of the cards given to you, since you almost certainly won't empty a Figures age pile.

[ipofanes]

Does anyone know if No Place is still an ongoing project, or is it just dead?

I know nothing but my impression was that designer and editor have concentrated on finishing Impulse before doing anyting else.