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Author Topic: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread  (Read 19022 times)

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Smartie

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2014, 12:16:57 pm »
+1

Games against Robz888 were really exciting! I actually was so nervous that I keep telling myself not to make any mistakes... But the games were really interesting and although the strategies are kind of similar, slight differences in some decisions decided the fate of the outcome.

Game 1
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140412/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1397320082750.txt
This had different strategies, with Robz888 going for straight silvers whereas I went for caravan/silver. His decision allowed him to get 1 earlier witch before my shuffles, and I did feel like I might lose out to him in the curse split. Nonetheless, I stayed on my decision and eventually got 1 witch on the 2nd shuffle. He then went on to get 3 witches while I stayed on 2 witches, hoping that my caravans can compensate by increasing the shuffling of my deck. Surprised that the curse split was 5-5 in the end! After dishing out the curses, the next was to find a good time to get masterpiece. Robz888 got masterpiece the moment he had more than 5 coins while I chose to wait for a big turn. Luckily, it came with me getting 11 coins and getting 8 extra silvers on my deck. It then went smoothly after the purchase. Interesting game indeed...

Smartie 1: Robz888 0

Game 2
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140412/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1397321389586.txt

This game focuses on the ability to focus on trashing to get King's court to function more efficiently. Hence, we got urchin and cut-purse, hopefully to get mercenary. It worked out for the both of us. We then got tactician to get the big turn to get King's Court. While we did get King's, I thought that my relatively trashed deck should enable me to get all my cards every turn with Hunting Party. I was totally wrong.... Robz888 made the more appropriate decision to get 2 tacticians which enabled him to use mercenary every turn! With 3 cards in my hand, I didnt manage to draw my cards even though I had more hunting party. Smooth victory for him at the end..

Smartie 1: Robz888 1

Game 3
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140412/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1397322129822.txt

This game clearly shows that my naive mind thinking that doctor can clear faster than salvager and loan.. I think the good thing about salvager is that it still can net gold, which enabled him to get more labs, more bridges and villages. Outright victory for Robz888.

Smartie 1: Robz888 2

Game 4
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140412/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1397323470980.txt

At this point, I was determined to win this game. Turned out to be really tough. This game focused on engine, with some buys with fishing village as the only +action card. We both got similar FVs and ~3 Journeyman, and one merchant guild. I think I was on the lead as I purchased my guild much earlier than his, allowing more tokens. However, my luck at 11 totally went out with no journeyman draws. I was depressed. What depressed me further was turn 12 where I completely got no journeyman again! And there were only 3 provinces left... Suddenly, I realized he didnt trigger his shuffle, which means that he will not get the journeyman too! I then took the risk of buying 1 province with all my tokens. Sure enough, my calculation worked, and the next turn I got the last 2 provinces, clinching a narrow victory. I was happy at my decision :)

Smartie 2: Robz888 2

Game 5
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140412/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1397324143237.txt

This game we used similar strategies using FV, masquerade and iron-monger. However, I predicted that besides FVs, ironmonger can also provide another source of +action. Hence I bought 2 masquerades while he just had 1. I think that allowed me to win marginally!

Smartie 3: Robz888 2

Game 6
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140412/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1397324951680.txt

Final game! JoaT on the board, so clearly it is a must have. Now, should we get hamlet or silver? I chose silver while he chose hamlet. That move from him was actually a smarter choice as the hamlet allowed him to discard coppers and cycle his deck faster. He then got vault, which got me certainly surprised. While vault can allow him to get 6 coins at least, this also allowed me to discard cards that I do not want! With 1 plaza, I took the risk to get another JoaT which certainly paid off, allowing me to have more silvers and better economy when I was getting VPs. I think if he had chosen another JoaT instead of vault, he would have won me quite easily. That way, I was lucky :)

Smartie 4: Robz888 2.

I really enjoyed playing with Robz888 as he is really nice and certainly a top-notch player. All the best! Just saw you got married, congrats! :)
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2014, 07:49:32 pm »
0

Also, can someone tell me if there is chance that I get into the playoffs? I do not get the tiebreakers very well, but being on the bottom half of the people with 8 points in the round 6 standings has to be pretty bad, right?

To expand on this, soulnet, the chance of you being in the playoffs is close to 100%.

There are (roughly, I haven't done a detailed analysis) 8 players guaranteed to finish ahead of you, 6 who will beat you if they win or tie, and 9 who need a win to stay ahead. Assuming they're all playing each other (probably not quite true, but close), I'd say you have a decent chance of making it. In the best case, 3 of the 6 play each other with no ties, and all 9 of the others get a tie in their match: you could qualify as high as 12th. Unlikely as that result is, you absolutely have a shot at getting in.

Oh dear... my apologies, soulnet, I had forgotten to count your default (bye by request in round 1).  Which puts you at the bottom of the 10s.  I apologize if I got your hopes up.
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2014, 07:53:15 pm »
0

And of course since I'm posting that, you all can guess that we are very nearly at the end of round 7.  15 of 16 slots are in; we're missing the match result that will determine that last seat in the round of 16, and another match result that will determine seeding near the top.
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Tables

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2014, 09:25:30 pm »
0

I haven't checked exactly, but whoo, I'm gonna be in like the bottom 5-ish by the time this Gokodom ends! Missing games and then playing badly in the games I did turn up for (except against A Drowned Kernel, where I somehow managed to play well) apparently isn't a good strategy. Who knew?
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2014, 09:44:07 pm »
0

Just lost against AI  2:4  in a very tense series.

Goko was being silly so i timed out in the actual 2nd game (at a time where i was slightly behind)
and then had to play the next game on a guest account. (which really sucked as i couldn't type
 #vp? during the swindler + fairgrounds game)

logs and comments follow when i have time.

game 1:

A rather weak board. I went for Caravans into Mint - BM. He chose Caravans into Doctor + Outpost + Money.
I think my biggest mistake was to get my mint too early only trashing 4 coppers. As i didnt have much economy at that time, that did lead to me missing 4 on one of the next 2 turns and with that losing the Caravan -Split 6/4.
If i waited until Caravans are out (probably 5/5 split) and then trashed 5 or 6 coppers with it it would have been closer.
His strategy turned out to be better and his Caravan/Outpost turns hit 8 often enough to cruise to an easy 10 point victory.

game 2:

Swindler game with Fairgrounds.
I think i played this game very well with only very few small misplays. I was pretty good at tracking my deck and trashing all those swindled cards like curses extra Doctors etc, but but there was also luck involved. The only thing he did that i really don't agree with was opening Doctor on 4/3 on this board, and he also got really unlucky hitting a Copper and drawing an Estate so he actually had a 4/2 start. He recovered pretty well though and was able to win the Fairground split 5/3, they were worth 6 points for both of us. But i had one extra Province and Swindled one of his Fairgrounds into a Gold which in the end made the difference.

game 4:

There is Vinyards, but the only cheap actions are Hamlet and Masquerade so i decide it's not worth going for it.
And there is also Goons which is a big deal. There is no engine but with enough Hamlets and Goons you should be able to hit double Goons turns reasonably often. He goes for Vinyards straight away which keeps him from getting Goons himself and my discarting attacks do hurt him. I get really lucky in the midgame getting 3 Goons and 2 Hamlets in one turn and can catch up in the points lead he was getting. Also i have a few Golds in my deck enabling me to hit some Provinces with the help of coin tokens that we both got from our Baker. He realizes that he can't catch up and resigns. I guess i got lucky here as my draws were really good, but i just don't think vinyards could really work on that board.

game 5:

Chapel into engine with cursing attacks in form of Soothsayer and Torturer.
He has the lucky 5/2 opening and already gives me a curse on Turn 3. Also i drew my chapel with 4 coppers making it nearly impossible to hit the important 4's and 5's while keeping my deck thin early. Misplaying and trashing a Copper instead of the Estate i drew to his Soothsayer didn't help either. The snowballing begins and soon i decide to resign as he didn't have much additional time anyway and we had the time to finish the match today with that. My chances to win this one were close to zero anyway.

game 6:

Vinyards game again but this time a bit stronger as there is Apothecary and Herbalist with it.
I open Mask/Potion to his Herbalist/Potion and get ahead in the Estate trashing. I pick up a Herbalist on the second shuffle. We both then get a second Potion soon and start rushing the Apothecaries. It's not really an engine possible as there is no village and so you cant get more than 2 cards a turn. He can pick up a few coppers on spare buys that really help him hit $8. I also wanted to do that but never really had the opportunity. I win the Apo split 6/4 and he now focuses more on economy from there, while i rush the vinyards (i win the split 6/2). It gets really really close in the end when he get's his 4th Province on the turn before i can end the game. I try to count but couldn't exactly remember how the rest of the estates were distributed. I guess wrong and lose 35:35 on turns but even if i guessed correct and bought estate(s) instead of the last herbalist(s) there was a decent chance for him to win anyway.
 

« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 11:03:24 pm by MarkowKette »
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2014, 09:59:54 pm »
0

Oh dear... my apologies, soulnet, I had forgotten to count your default (bye by request in round 1).  Which puts you at the bottom of the 10s.  I apologize if I got your hopes up.

Bye by request adds a default? According to the rules and regulations:

Quote
D. A result of DD adds one Default to a player's record.

DD here is Draw by Default, which is, when two players receive a draw because of unavailability to play. It says nothing about BR (Bye by request).

I guess BR being worse than an actual played tie makes sense (if nothing else to encourage playing), but still, between the R&R saying that and your message, I was kind of hoping.
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Lekkit

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2014, 02:09:02 am »
0

And of course since I'm posting that, you all can guess that we are very nearly at the end of round 7.  15 of 16 slots are in; we're missing the match result that will determine that last seat in the round of 16, and another match result that will determine seeding near the top.

Does this mean that me and Walrus are playing for the final spot? Or are we out of the competition?
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Kirian

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2014, 10:58:56 am »
0

Argh.  Obviously I've messed this up quite a bit, I thought I had put that into the rules.  And of course any ruling I make at this point is going to make someone unhappy.

Ruling to come shortly.
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2014, 11:23:37 am »
0

Argh.  Obviously I've messed this up quite a bit, I thought I had put that into the rules.  And of course any ruling I make at this point is going to make someone unhappy.

Ruling to come shortly.

You are working for us for free, and doing mostly a great work, so don't worry, this things happen.

In any case, assuming the intersection of the qualified people in both cases (defaulting and non-defaulting BRs) is 15, me and the other player in the symmetric difference of those sets could play each other for the final spot. Moreover, if the name of this other player is already known, I could schedule play before next Monday to avoid delaying playoffs. Of course that is worse for either than going directly into the playoffs, but at least the worst case is improved (yes, CS-bias on my part). For me, I get to play at least one more tournament match, so I'd not be unhappy. I do not care as much for final placement, I do care for playing more significant matches. Luckily, I have no idea who this other fellow is/would be, so I am not attacking anyone directly (i.e., this post is Dominion-compliant).
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2014, 11:57:58 am »
0

Also, for next GokoDom rules, please consider whether BR should grant a penalizing default, especially byes in the early rounds when there is no possibility for speculation. For top16 qualifying (the only time when counting the defaults matter) you are already being penalized when using a BR: You either miss a win by playing a probably inferior opponent or you get a lousy Sokoloff score for a draw (the Sokoloff of a virtual opponent is going to be 7 at the end, and for the default to matter as tie breaker you are compared with people with at least 9 and most likely 10 or 11 points, so the expected Sokoloff you get out of a regular tie is more than 7).
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SCSN

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2014, 12:02:07 pm »
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Kirian,

I don't know soulnet particularly well and I'm indifferent to whether he personally makes it to the play-offs, so this is purely an expression of what I think is fair:

If soulnet had request a Bye for the penultimate round so that he'd have received a tie instead of having to face a possibly stronger opponent, I'd have certainly made his tie-breaker worse than that of those who did play all their matches. However, since the Bye happened in the very first round, where your opponent is completely random, receiving a tie is already a punishment in itself if you're a sufficiently above average player. In addition to that, unless I misunderstand the system, your tie breaker suffers from not receiving any of the matchpoints your first-round opponent scores in subsequent rounds, as you had no first-round opponent to start with. To add a third punishment to the existing two strikes me as excessively cruel.
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amalloy

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2014, 02:01:25 pm »
+1

Kirian,

I don't know soulnet particularly well and I'm indifferent to whether he personally makes it to the play-offs, so this is purely an expression of what I think is fair:

If soulnet had request a Bye for the penultimate round so that he'd have received a tie instead of having to face a possibly stronger opponent, I'd have certainly made his tie-breaker worse than that of those who did play all their matches. However, since the Bye happened in the very first round, where your opponent is completely random, receiving a tie is already a punishment in itself if you're a sufficiently above average player. In addition to that, unless I misunderstand the system, your tie breaker suffers from not receiving any of the matchpoints your first-round opponent scores in subsequent rounds, as you had no first-round opponent to start with. To add a third punishment to the existing two strikes me as excessively cruel.

You do misunderstand the system, according to rule V-A-2. When you receive a bye (by request or by default), a virtual player is created who has the same current score as you do. They tie or lose the imaginary match against you, and then go on to tie all their matches for the rest of the tournament. So, a bye-by-request in round 1 has the same impact on your Sokoloff tiebreaker as tying an average player. That's pretty bad for a player who's in contention for the playoffs, but not nearly as bad as the scenario you imagined, SCSN.
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2014, 06:35:30 pm »
0

For anyone not checking, the ruling on the BRs and other rulings were posted by Kirian in a separate thread.
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Monsieur X

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2014, 05:22:21 pm »
+2

Monsieur X  4    Stef  2

game 1  http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.50b20dc3e4b0c9ce0cf27eb3.1397845237949.txt  0-1
i misplayed it and Stef perfectly played it. Nothing to do but resign!

game 2  http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.50b20dc3e4b0c9ce0cf27eb3.1397847243504.txt
we seems to have the same idea with plaza library margrave...  He had 5 on turn 3 and took ghost ship. He tortured me! I really liked his trader! I choose to avoid ghost ship thinking i was late, and just go library, margrave and fast greening, and praying !          0-2

game 3  http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.50b20dc3e4b0c9ce0cf27eb3.1397849762349.txt
This one there were cultist city forager tactician... why not mint bishop..
He first had 5, but finally cultist was not such a killer here. he was ahead but i thougth my 3 quarries could give me possibilites to have control on the end. Also i split 6/4 foragers i think and he was the one who "activated" them.    1-2

game 4  http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.50b20dc3e4b0c9ce0cf27eb3.1397850730628.txt
For me this one,probably opening gave  the game. I took chapel squire, wanting to gain the knigths split trashing squire. (with rabbles also to gain for draws). 2-2

game 5  http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.50b20dc3e4b0c9ce0cf27eb3.1397851453781.txt
Awfull swindlers/knigths game!  At the begining Stef was sorry to have luck.... but next my luck was really incredible and gave me the victory. Sorry for that.  3-2

game 6  http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.50b20dc3e4b0c9ce0cf27eb3.1397852933087.txt
5/2 seems so bad here and he has it... i clearly went on the bad strategy here going JofT and market square. The engine seems to be very powerfull with border village, smithy, merchant guild, peddler...
Honestly i went on this bad idea, because i didnt see smithy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  And between this dificult 5/2 for stef, and much more luck for me next, i won rushing on greens cards
(Turn 4 i took very fast my double jack to have more possibilities to gain gold with market square.
Turn 7 i dont regret my border village merchant guild, but my market square seems strange (why not silver?????))

thank you for the games Stef and for you streaming.
I would like to see it and more streamings, but thats not difficult to make streamings and have top concentration on game?
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WalrusMcFishSr

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2014, 06:11:21 pm »
0

WalrusMcFishSr ties Lekkit 3 - 3

Game 1: 1 - 0

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.51257fd4e4b0a147e28eeb56.1397851144314.txt

I go for Horse Traders/Fool's Gold into Duchy/Duke, while Lekkit denies me a few Fool's Gold and goes for Throne Rooms, Hunting Parties and a Witch. It looks fun but it's not enough I guess. Pretty sure I missed a forced win or two towards the end...I realized eventually I could buy out the curses.

Game 2: 1 - 1

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.51257fd4e4b0a147e28eeb56.1397852165483.txt

Swindler-heavy action, he gets the Golems and I don't, and it worked well for him. I gave him lots of Lookouts but he also got lots of Grand Markets and such. My poor Expand never saw the light of day.

Game 3: 2 - 1

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.51257fd4e4b0a147e28eeb56.1397854226572.txt

This game took forever. I think 5-2 is a big advantage here, but I have no idea if Ghost Ship is the best choice. In any case I'm able to trash down with Count, and then hit him pretty brutally with Ghost Ship and Jesters. He opens with Workshop, which seems reasonable too...he caught up towards the end but it was an uphill climb.

Game 4: 2 - 2

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.51257fd4e4b0a147e28eeb56.1397854969735.txt

Oof. This game was a doozy. Not sure what happened here...he opens with 5 - 2 and gets the early Junk Dealer, I go Silver/Silver but don't even hit 5 my second shuffle. Possibly Labs before Haggler is correct as well, and maybe I should have tried for something Bishop-y earlier. Regardless he mops the floor with me.

Game 5: 3 - 2

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.51257fd4e4b0a147e28eeb56.1397855646058.txt

Squire / Gardens all day erry day. Lekkit jazzes it up with some Throne Rooms and Labs, but I was able to grab 7 Squires, 6 Gardens, and then just bloat to victory.

Game 6: 3 - 3

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140418/log.51257fd4e4b0a147e28eeb56.1397856797769.txt

A fun Counterfeit game -- JoaT and Soothsayer means there's plenty of disposable treasures floating around. He executes it better and cinches the 3 - 3 tie!

Thanks for the games Lekkit! Highly enjoyable!
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SCSN

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2014, 09:28:41 pm »
+1

Stef's stream, for those wanting to watch it.
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2014, 10:06:13 am »
0

Stef's stream, for those wanting to watch it.

I see whole black screen for the first minute, is it me?
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 7 Discussion Thread
« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2014, 01:28:20 pm »
+6

Stef's stream, for those wanting to watch it.

I see whole black screen for the first minute, is it me?

Nope it's not you, it's them. Ehh, me.
This was a trial run, I just watched some of it myself, and I realize I have quite some things to learn yet about streaming.

Some technical points, but also more personal aspects about it. One of the more difficult ones will be ignoring my own perfectionism, accepting that I can play bad and stream it anyway. Although I start playing really well, at some point I realize I made a huge mistake in game 3 and go down fast from that point on.
That's something I really want to learn though, not just in dominion, so more streams to come.
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