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[shark_bait]

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140403/log.505d7a160cf2ef979299a48e.1396536560888.txt

Code: [Select]

Herbalist, Moneylender, Navigator, Rats, Baker, Cultist, Ghost Ship, Rebuild, Altar, Hunting Grounds
So Baker is present and we each have a $5/$3 start.  Being second player I am hesitant to play the Rebuild mirror and because it probably isn't the best strategy.  I decide to play Cultist in hopes that the mass junk will slow down his ability to both (a) Buy Rebuilds and Duchies and (b) Play the Rebuilds that he does have.  There really isn't any support for Rebuild on this board so I think Cultist was the right play.  I did get good draws being able to buy Cultist on turns 4-7 and by giving him 8 ruins in 8 turns and all 10 after 9.  But then again, I was able to open with both a Cultist and a Silver, so perhaps it wasn't overly lucky.  After that it was a simple matter of getting a single Gold and buying Provinces.

This game is a good example of not blindly playing into "power" cards.  They are not always the best strategy and even though in most cases Rebuild counters junkers pretty hard, there are always exceptions to the rule.  Both the lack of Rebuild support and ability to open Cultist provide a unique board where Rebuild is actually not able to outpace junking attacks.

[KingZog3]

Both Navigator and Altar help Rebuild a lot. I would still open Cultist though. The power of giving a lot of ruins is too good to pass up.

[HiveMindEmulator]

This game is a good example of not blindly playing into "power" cards.  They are not always the best strategy and even though in most cases Rebuild counters junkers pretty hard, there are always exceptions to the rule.  Both the lack of Rebuild support and ability to open Cultist provide a unique board where Rebuild is actually not able to outpace junking attacks.

I'm not so sure this game is an example of that concept. Isn't Cultist considered more of a power card than Rebuild? "Blindly" playing into this would actually not turn out wrong. I would guess the best strategy is going Cultists into Rebuilds (assuming your opponent also goes Cultist -- if not, just go money and Provinces, like you did), which seems like the most obvious thing to do.

I was hoping you did something like Nav/Silver, saving the coin token for a fast Altar, falling a little behind on Cultists to come back with superior Duchy gaining in the Rebuild phase. Though I don't suspect this would work (you're like 2 shuffles slow on the first Cultist, which Nav isn't enough to make up for. Plus you have this dead Nav... maybe Silver/Silver would be better...), it would be neat if it did. Opening Nav/Silver instead of Cultist/Silver would be unheard of -- mostly because it probably wouldn't work like ever.

[TheMirrorMan]

The problem with a lot of Dominion games is ... First things first. But I'm not 100% sure here about what is better.

For cultist, there's not too much support, although rats (?) and altar will help you well enough.
The problem is the support for Rebuild. You have no real cycling, so a Navigator would be in order. Altar does help for getting Duchies in, but it's very expensive here.

A) If you go for Cultist, Silver/Cultist is obviously the way to go.
B) If you go for Rebuild, I think the opening to do is Moneylender/Navigator over Silver/Navigator. Yes they are two terminals but you're keeping your deck thin and you can always pick out the good hands for Rebuild (and pick up an Altar when getting $6).

My gut feeling says B) is way too slow. So I think A) is the call here. And of course when the ruins are dealt out, you can always switch to Rebuild yourself.

[shark_bait]

This game is a good example of not blindly playing into "power" cards.  They are not always the best strategy and even though in most cases Rebuild counters junkers pretty hard, there are always exceptions to the rule.  Both the lack of Rebuild support and ability to open Cultist provide a unique board where Rebuild is actually not able to outpace junking attacks.

I'm not so sure this game is an example of that concept. Isn't Cultist considered more of a power card than Rebuild? "Blindly" playing into this would actually not turn out wrong. I would guess the best strategy is going Cultists into Rebuilds (assuming your opponent also goes Cultist -- if not, just go money and Provinces, like you did), which seems like the most obvious thing to do.

I was hoping you did something like Nav/Silver, saving the coin token for a fast Altar, falling a little behind on Cultists to come back with superior Duchy gaining in the Rebuild phase. Though I don't suspect this would work (you're like 2 shuffles slow on the first Cultist, which Nav isn't enough to make up for. Plus you have this dead Nav... maybe Silver/Silver would be better...), it would be neat if it did. Opening Nav/Silver instead of Cultist/Silver would be unheard of -- mostly because it probably wouldn't work like ever.

That'd be a risky opening for sure.  Hard part is with no Village so you can't play any actions after a Cultist string.

I guess both Cultist and Rebuild are exceptionally powerful cards.  At the very least it's a board where Rebuild isn't dominant.  The question here though is whether on a normal board assuming $3/$4 split do you go Rebuild or Cultist.  I'd wager a Navigator/Silver opening could get an Altar and a Rebuild or two before being junked down.

[Holger]

This game is a good example of not blindly playing into "power" cards.  They are not always the best strategy and even though in most cases Rebuild counters junkers pretty hard, there are always exceptions to the rule.  Both the lack of Rebuild support and ability to open Cultist provide a unique board where Rebuild is actually not able to outpace junking attacks.

I'm not so sure this game is an example of that concept. Isn't Cultist considered more of a power card than Rebuild? "Blindly" playing into this would actually not turn out wrong. I would guess the best strategy is going Cultists into Rebuilds (assuming your opponent also goes Cultist -- if not, just go money and Provinces, like you did), which seems like the most obvious thing to do.

According to SCSN's simulation results, pure Rebuild-BM does beat Cultist-BM. On this board, Altar helps both a Rebuild and a Cultist player, but it also counters Cultist by trashing Ruins. The starting coin token should slightly help Cultist for whom early gains are more relevant. But Navigator and (probably) Moneylender are good support for Rebuild, and there's no Shelters or Colonies, so I think I'd go Rebuild-BM (gaining an Altar with the first $6, saving my coin token for this buy) on this board.
(Apart from not saving his coin token and not buying Moneylender before Rebuild on T1, shark_bait's opponent was unlucky in that his first Rebuild misses the reshuffle, and the first time he gets to $5 "on his own" was only turn 6.)

B) If you go for Rebuild, I think the opening to do is Moneylender/Navigator over Silver/Navigator. Yes they are two terminals but you're keeping your deck thin and you can always pick out the good hands for Rebuild (and pick up an Altar when getting $6).

Sacrificing a coin token for a second $4 card which may easily collide on T3/4 seems suicidal to me. Unlike Cultist, Rebuild doesn't care much for keeping your deck thin anyway, a thin deck increases the risk of collision with the only rebuildable VP card. Save the coin token for a $5 or $6 buy instead.

My gut feeling says B) is way too slow. So I think A) is the call here. And of course when the ruins are dealt out, you can always switch to Rebuild yourself.

With a Cultist chain running, you'd draw Rebuild dead half the time (and with the other half, you have to Rebuild your less profitable starting Estates first). Witch into Rebuild is better than either card alone, but I'm sure Cultist into Rebuild is worse than either single-card strategy.

[HiveMindEmulator]

According to SCSN's simulation results, pure Rebuild-BM does beat Cultist-BM. On this board, Altar helps both a Rebuild and a Cultist player, but it also counters Cultist by trashing Ruins. The starting coin token should slightly help Cultist for whom early gains are more relevant. But Navigator and (probably) Moneylender are good support for Rebuild, and there's no Shelters or Colonies, so I think I'd go Rebuild-BM (gaining an Altar with the first $6, saving my coin token for this buy) on this board.
(Apart from not saving his coin token and not buying Moneylender before Rebuild on T1, shark_bait's opponent was unlucky in that his first Rebuild misses the reshuffle, and the first time he gets to $5 "on his own" was only turn 6.)

Slightly is a major understatement. Being able to open Cultist is huge for a card that snowballs like that. If you can't open Cultist, then sure Rebuild looks better, but that's no the question here.

With a Cultist chain running, you'd draw Rebuild dead half the time (and with the other half, you have to Rebuild your less profitable starting Estates first). Witch into Rebuild is better than either card alone, but I'm sure Cultist into Rebuild is worse than either single-card strategy.

I'm not sure what you're comparing to here. If your opponent ignores Cultist, you just go Cultist BM and win, like shark_bait did here. If you both go Cultist and get a fairly even Ruins split, I'm not sure buying Provinces will be that fast, and you won't be dead drawing as much as you seem to be saying.

[Holger]

According to SCSN's simulation results, pure Rebuild-BM does beat Cultist-BM. On this board, Altar helps both a Rebuild and a Cultist player, but it also counters Cultist by trashing Ruins. The starting coin token should slightly help Cultist for whom early gains are more relevant. But Navigator and (probably) Moneylender are good support for Rebuild, and there's no Shelters or Colonies, so I think I'd go Rebuild-BM (gaining an Altar with the first $6, saving my coin token for this buy) on this board.
(Apart from not saving his coin token and not buying Moneylender before Rebuild on T1, shark_bait's opponent was unlucky in that his first Rebuild misses the reshuffle, and the first time he gets to $5 "on his own" was only turn 6.)

Slightly is a major understatement. Being able to open Cultist is huge for a card that snowballs like that. If you can't open Cultist, then sure Rebuild looks better, but that's no the question here.

It's not really "huger" than having a 5/2 opening without coin tokens. But I agree that the token does help Cultist very much; what I meant is that it helps Rebuild almost as much - you can get an (almost) guaranteed Altar on T3/4 or get an extra Rebuild early.

With a Cultist chain running, you'd draw Rebuild dead half the time (and with the other half, you have to Rebuild your less profitable starting Estates first). Witch into Rebuild is better than either card alone, but I'm sure Cultist into Rebuild is worse than either single-card strategy.

I'm not sure what you're comparing to here. If your opponent ignores Cultist, you just go Cultist BM and win, like shark_bait did here. If you both go Cultist and get a fairly even Ruins split, I'm not sure buying Provinces will be that fast, and you won't be dead drawing as much as you seem to be saying.

I was considering the non-mirror case (because I think Rebuild+Support is preferable to pure Cultist), but my argument applies to any game where you've bought ~5 Cultists before going Rebuild. You'll usually buy at least that many in the non-mirror, but I think it's the best Cultist strategy also in the mirror (in the absence of other Action cards, Cultists are still Labs after the Ruins are gone; and after two piles are empty, you should probably start buying Duchies anyway). And with 5 Cultists out of ~20-25 cards in your deck, the chance of drawing Rebuild (or any other Action) dead is close to 50%. Even with only 3 Cultists in your deck, Rebuild would still be substantially nerfed.

I'm not quite sure which strategy is better here, but the actual game doesn't prove Cultist BM to be better because, as I said, shark_bait's opponent was very unlucky and also played suboptimally - buying Moneylender on turn 3/4 (instead of Navigator on T1) seems very bad against a Cultist player to me.

[MarkowKette]

I agree with what you said. The coin token at start usually helps Cultist more than it helps Rebuild. But Altar helps Rebuild  far more than it helps Cultist and the cointoken makes it very likely to hit Altar on the second shuffle.
On a 5/2 opening Altar and going into a rebuild deck seems like the way to go. On a 4/3  opening Cultist/Silver should be better than Rebuild/silver but Navigator/Silver into Altar rebuild should be able to put up an even fight.