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Author Topic: Help with present cards  (Read 6093 times)

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soulnet

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Help with present cards
« on: March 28, 2014, 09:48:52 am »
+2

My best friend is having his first baby, and he and his wife are newly hooked up with Dominion (only played IRL), but quickly buying sets. I thought I would made them some thematic (to some extent) fan cards as present. I have 10 blanks from my own sets, so I would make two regular 10-card piles.

Problem: They are the ones I play with the most, so I don't really have a good group to playtest it thoroughly.

So, I would want to shape it up here as much as possible. Any suggestion, wording, tweaking, even changing name or some mechanic, is appreciated.

This are my initial ideas for the cards. Costs and even some vainilla bonus amounts are a bit preliminary (I gave it some thought, but may be way off).



This is a strange Lab variant. It seems a bit weak to me at $6, but it is strictly better than Lab. I thought about costing it $5 and adding a small penalty, like discard a card.

Quote
Royal Linage - Action - $6
+2 Cards
You may play an Action card from your hand.
Repeat any number of times:
You may play an Action card from your hand that is more expensive than the last Action card you played.



This was actually going to be my submission for the second Seaside Treasure Chest contest, but those are really delayed (maybe cancelled), and this seems like a better use for it. I think the idea is nice, and especially fun, but the specific bonus needs tweaking. I am not sure about the name, would Heritage or Legacy sound better? I am not a native English speaker, which one sounds more Dominion-y?
Better wording options are also welcomed (I was thinking for a while and could not find a better one).

Quote
Birthright - Action/Duration - $5
+1 Action
+$2
Look at the top two cards from your deck. Set one aside face down and put the other one back.

At the start of your next turn, if the card set aside is face down, discard it. Otherwise, put it in your hand, together with this card.
---
While this is in play, when an opponent plays a copy of the set aside card, you may flip it face up.

The vanilla +$2 may need tweaking. +$1 seems really weak to me, and I think is better if its money and not cards, because the card drawing is covered by getting the set aside card next turn, and it would look too much like Wharf otherwise. Also, regarding how to choose the card to set aside, I am open to radical suggestions. These are my thoughts:
* From hand is weak. From hand and +1 Card is too strong, even if you miss most times.
* From discard or discard+hand is too strong and a bit swingy (I do not mind the swingyness, although I prefer to reduce it if possible; they are good but not competitive and the card seems really fun which is important for this use).
* From deck is easier to tweak, since you can see X cards from deck. X=1 seems really weak, I am thinking either X=2 or X=3.

EDIT: Fixed Birthright wording.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 11:55:33 am by soulnet »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2014, 10:03:17 am »
+1

For Royal Lineage, it seems like the reason you want +2 cards is to improve the odds of having multiple actions to play.  So it seems reasonable to me to replace that with a sifting effect instead.  +2 cards, discard two cards.  Then do the action chain.  It sounds like a fun card to me.

Also, it might actually be stronger at $6, since then you could finish your action chain off with another Royal Lineage.  So probably try to price it at $5 unless you really want that repetition.

Edit:  Of course, at $5 you can still end with a Royal Lineage, but then your chains aren't including any other $5 actions, which are generally considered the strongest.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2014, 10:04:57 am by SirPeebles »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2014, 10:28:32 am »
+1

After a bit more thought, something which worries me is nested Lineages.  Not that it would be too strong, but rather too confusing.  But I guess we are used to it from nested KCs, for instance.  Just something worth thinking about, it may be fine as is.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2014, 10:31:04 am »
+1

After a bit more thought, something which worries me is nested Lineages.  Not that it would be too strong, but rather too confusing.  But I guess we are used to it from nested KCs, for instance.  Just something worth thinking about, it may be fine as is.

What about nested KC/Lineage? Play Lineage, play a stack of ascending cards, ending with KC. But you use KC to play a Pearl Diver, meaning the last card you played costs $2, so you can then start ascending again, all from one play of Lineage.

Not that it's necessarily a problem. Just thought I'd point it out.

Also, I really like the sifting suggestion of [+2 Cards; discard 2 cards].
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GendoIkari

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2014, 10:32:44 am »
+1

Royal Lineage isn't strictly better than lab. It's almost always better than lab, like Hunting Party and Stables are. Say I Throne Room it when those are the only 2 action cards in my hand. After the first time I draw 2 cards, still no action cards in my hand. Then I draw 2 more, and I drew 2 Terminals that cost the same with it. I can only play 1 of those 2 Terminals. Had I Throned a Lab instead, I could play them both.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2014, 10:34:33 am »
+1

Royal Lineage isn't strictly better than lab. It's almost always better than lab, like Hunting Party and Stables are. Say I Throne Room it when those are the only 2 action cards in my hand. After the first time I draw 2 cards, still no action cards in my hand. Then I draw 2 more, and I drew 2 Terminals that cost the same with it. I can only play 1 of those 2 Terminals. Had I Throned a Lab instead, I could play them both.

I think the esoteric nature of your example shows that Royal Lineage is enough better than Lab that it shouldn't cost $5 as-is.
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clloxin

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2014, 10:38:36 am »
0

Royal Lineage looks like it could be a really confusing card, just trying to track down each action played, especially with chained RL's.
Kings court can be confusing, but at least you don't have to go back to previous card plays and remember what options you have.
I do like the idea though, I just think it might need to be less confusing.
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soulnet

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2014, 11:21:03 am »
0

Royal Lineage isn't strictly better than lab. It's almost always better than lab, like Hunting Party and Stables are. Say I Throne Room it when those are the only 2 action cards in my hand. After the first time I draw 2 cards, still no action cards in my hand. Then I draw 2 more, and I drew 2 Terminals that cost the same with it. I can only play 1 of those 2 Terminals. Had I Throned a Lab instead, I could play them both.

I think the esoteric nature of your example shows that Royal Lineage is enough better than Lab that it shouldn't cost $5 as-is.

I agree with LF, but it was a good example non-the-less.

About confusion: I think the only problem is the nested thing, which is a nice combo. I could make the lineage go downwards in value, and maybe even price RL at $6 and make it count as the starting place, but then it gets weaker (could be +3 Cards). That is less confusing, and avoids KC trouble, but gets really powerful to stack with TR/Procession, and not extremely exciting otherwise. I guess playing a $5 and a $4 is reasonable enough for $6, +2 Cards, no penalty. This self-combo sounds like a fun thing to be prohibiting it or just letting it happen with TR/Procession.
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soulnet

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2014, 11:22:19 am »
+1

After a bit more thought, something which worries me is nested Lineages.  Not that it would be too strong, but rather too confusing.  But I guess we are used to it from nested KCs, for instance.  Just something worth thinking about, it may be fine as is.

What about nested KC/Lineage? Play Lineage, play a stack of ascending cards, ending with KC. But you use KC to play a Pearl Diver, meaning the last card you played costs $2, so you can then start ascending again, all from one play of Lineage.

Not that it's necessarily a problem. Just thought I'd point it out.

Also, I really like the sifting suggestion of [+2 Cards; discard 2 cards].

If you have KC and non-terminals, you don't really need the ascending ladder. It is only good if you need +Actions. If you are playing KC on Pearl Diver and then playing some more expensive useful actions, you are probably doing it wrong. You want to KC the expensive stuff.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2014, 11:39:38 am »
0

What if you have Lineage play descending chains rather than ascending?
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soulnet

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2014, 11:46:51 am »
0

What if you have Lineage play descending chains rather than ascending?

I commented on this above. Basically, not being able to self-stack is a huge nerf. If the first card does not need to be less than it, it may be ok. You usually have more cheaper cards, bue expensive cards usually draw more, so can get you those cheaper cards. Maybe I will do this anyway:
Quote
Royal Linage - Action - $5
+2 Cards
Discard 2 cards from your hand.
You may play an Action card from your hand.
Repeat any number of times:
You may play an Action card from your hand that is cheaper than the last Action card you played.
So it can self-stack, but it is harder to pull off. It is quite a bit of text, though, it would be good to reduce it. Maybe remove the first "free of restrictions" Action and the discard? Then it is even harder to self-stack, but may be fine (thought maybe needs to cost $6 to be able to play $5s).
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AJD

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2014, 11:52:53 am »
+1

Birthright - Action/Duration - $5
+1 Action
+$2
Look at the top two cards from your deck. Set one aside face down and put the other one back.

At the start of your next turn, if the card set aside is face up, put it in your hand, together with this card.
---
While this is in play, when an opponent plays a copy of the set aside card, you may flip it face up.

So… what happens if nobody plays the set-aside card? Birthright is cleaned up, and you have to play another copy of Birthright to get another chance to get the set-aside card back?
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soulnet

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2014, 11:54:44 am »
0

Birthright - Action/Duration - $5
+1 Action
+$2
Look at the top two cards from your deck. Set one aside face down and put the other one back.

At the start of your next turn, if the card set aside is face up, put it in your hand, together with this card.
---
While this is in play, when an opponent plays a copy of the set aside card, you may flip it face up.

So… what happens if nobody plays the set-aside card? Birthright is cleaned up, and you have to play another copy of Birthright to get another chance to get the set-aside card back?

Oh, I forgot to add the text to discard the set aside card. Oh, damn, more text. The concept is simple, though, I wish I could word it simply as well.

I will edit the OP to fix this.
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soulnet

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2014, 05:33:50 pm »
0

I came up with this nerfed version of Royal Linage (non self-stack like Lab). I think it may be a bit weak, even with the added on-gain, but it has way less annoying text. Let me know what you think:

Quote
Royal Linage - Action - $6
+2 Cards
Do this any number of times:
You may play an Action card from your hand that is cheaper than the last Action card you played.
---
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand.
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popsofctown

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2014, 05:40:23 pm »
+1

I think those both sound kinda complicated for newer players :/
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eHalcyon

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2014, 06:26:50 pm »
0

You should consider changing the name to "Royal Lineage".  Dictionary.com sames "linage" is also correct, but it's unfamiliar to me (thought it was a typo).  Other than that, I like the name.

Royal Lineage isn't strictly better than lab. It's almost always better than lab, like Hunting Party and Stables are. Say I Throne Room it when those are the only 2 action cards in my hand. After the first time I draw 2 cards, still no action cards in my hand. Then I draw 2 more, and I drew 2 Terminals that cost the same with it. I can only play 1 of those 2 Terminals. Had I Throned a Lab instead, I could play them both.

Maybe I'm reading the card wrong, but I think you should be able to play at least one of those terminals.

Play TR, play RL, draw two cards.
You may play an action card, but you have none to play.
Play RL for the second time, draw two cards.
You may play an action card -- you can now play one of your terminals, regardless of its cost.
You may play another action card, if it's more expensive than the one you just played.


Anyway, I think the concept is interesting, but I agree with the general consensus that this is probably too confusing when nested.



The new nerfed Royal Lineage looks alright, but it can still get really confusing when nested with Throne Rooms.

I play RL ($6), which lets me play TR ($4), which lets me play any card at any cost.  After I resolve TRs two plays, do I continue with RL but with whatever action was last played (via TR, which may potentially chain into KCs and Golems), or do I jump back to the last thing that RL played, which was TR?

Maybe you could try this version:

Quote
Royal Lineage - Action - $6
+2 Cards
Reveal and set aside any number of Action cards from your hand costing less than this.  Play them all in any order.

This is stronger in that it can play multiple cards of the same cost, but weaker in that it can't play any new action cards that you may draw as a result of playing the set-aside cards.  I think it should be less confusing when nested with TR.

If it's too weak, you could increase it to +3 cards or add an on-gain.  If it's too strong, you could lower the cost or maybe require that every revealed card be differently named or differently costed.
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soulnet

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2014, 07:11:25 pm »
0

I think those both sound kinda complicated for newer players :/

They are not new, they just play IRL only, and mostly between them. They are mathematicians, I am not worried about problems with understanding logical rules. It can be hard to follow, but is only once in a while that you build those chains, and then, it can be a fun thing to track everything. Kind of like tracking KC-Wharf. Since this only plays each card once, it will never stay out because of Durations (like Golem), that is one positive thing.
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soulnet

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2014, 07:12:48 pm »
0

Quote
Royal Lineage - Action - $6
+2 Cards
Reveal and set aside any number of Action cards from your hand costing less than this.  Play them all in any order.

This is stronger in that it can play multiple cards of the same cost, but weaker in that it can't play any new action cards that you may draw as a result of playing the set-aside cards.  I think it should be less confusing when nested with TR.

If it's too weak, you could increase it to +3 cards or add an on-gain.  If it's too strong, you could lower the cost or maybe require that every revealed card be differently named or differently costed.

I get your point, but I think this is a lot less interesting for something custom-made (and also, less thematic, which is a small problem). This seems like a Cornucopia card (with differently named or differently costed), and I think something similar was submitted for the Cornucopia Treasure Chest contest.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2014, 08:12:05 pm »
0

OK, if there is no concern about confusion, then go for it. :)
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ConMan

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Re: Help with present cards
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2014, 09:11:06 pm »
0

Quote
Royal Lineage - Action - $6
+2 Cards
Reveal and set aside any number of Action cards from your hand costing less than this.  Play them all in any order.

This is stronger in that it can play multiple cards of the same cost, but weaker in that it can't play any new action cards that you may draw as a result of playing the set-aside cards.  I think it should be less confusing when nested with TR.

If it's too weak, you could increase it to +3 cards or add an on-gain.  If it's too strong, you could lower the cost or maybe require that every revealed card be differently named or differently costed.

I get your point, but I think this is a lot less interesting for something custom-made (and also, less thematic, which is a small problem). This seems like a Cornucopia card (with differently named or differently costed), and I think something similar was submitted for the Cornucopia Treasure Chest contest.
Yep, this was basically Harvest Queen from Cornucopia, except that HQ specified *differently named* cards for each play. The version with increasing costs I would say belongs with either Cornucopia or possibly Prosperity (since as well as enforcing variety it likes having lots of card costs).
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