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[MarkowKette]

Here i am going to comment on the synergy between those two cards in a BM Deck.
If you go for Treasure Map in a game you will have that one hand with lots of Gold
and no +buy most of the time. Masterpiece likes that.

I played a Big money game recently that used those two cards.
As you get a >=  $12 hand after connecting two Treasure Maps
you can easily flood your deck with masses of silver on that turn.
Now you have a Deck with an average Money density around $8 per 5 cards.
Simulations suggest that you can connect two Treasure Maps on around
turn 7 on average if you buy Treasure Maps on every at least $4 hand
until 2 of them collide. Assuming you bought around 3 Maps and 3 Silvers
on turn 1-6, collide 2 Maps on turn 7 and trash the 3rd map later and get $13
on turn 8 which seems to be a reasonable suggestion, your Deck will be
13 Silver 4 gold 7 Copper and 3 Estate 1 Masterpiece after turn 8.
Thats  about 1,64 coins per Card.
Now you can buy a Province each turn for the next 6 turns
(assuming perfect shuffle luck)
More likely you can get 4 Provinces and 2 Duchies until turn 14.
That is about the same as a premium BM strategy like Jack-BM can.
And your deck is a lot larger than a Jack BM deck would be,
and therefore is pretty resistent to greening and still has its starting
estates on top of that.

Of course there are also other cards on the board and most likely one
or two of them even support this strategy and make it even stronger.

[florrat]

Not sure whether this is posted 5/6 days too early...

[ragingduckd]

Not sure whether this is posted 5/6 days too early...

I think it's meant to be legit, and it's quite interesting.  I'd like to see it in a sim against Jack or something.

[Davio]

I wouldn't dive into Treasure Maps without support that easily.

So chuck in a Warehouse and it should be pretty decent.

[Smartie]

Think you might not do this for a colony game thougg

[hsiale]

Silver is much worse in a Colony game (a hand of 5 Silvers does not buy you a Colony). If you play BM into Colonies, you want to switch to Gold and Platinum quickly.

[silverspawn]

Being a big fan of treasure map, I've done this several times before. it's really good in province games, really bad in colony games

[soulnet]

Being a big fan of treasure map, I've done this several times before. it's really good in province games, really bad in colony games

Is it really bad? I mean, you CAN go for Provinces in a Colony game. This seems like the kind of deck that could handle buying all 8 Provinces (of course, you would probably adjust to pass some Duchies, especially on $6). Moreover, after collision, you can add some drawing terminals, which will make the deck way stronger.

Of course, a good engine is going to catch up on Colonies, but on weak boards, being able to finish up the Province pile in say, 20 turns, is not bad. I doubt simple BMs can beat that, even with Colonies available.

[shark_bait]

It depends on the colony game in question.  It is possible to win Colony games with rushing Provinces given the support for Province/BM is strong enough.  Hoard and Vault are two cards that do this well as they perform well under greening and excel in hitting that $8 price mark.  I could see Treasure Map/Masterpiece doing similarly well in rushing the Provinces.  The key thing for rushing Provinces in a Colony game is that you need to get ahead early.  Doing so prohibits your opponent from purchasing Provinces as that would accelerate the end of the game.  But by not buying Provinces they won't be able to obtain enough VP to overcome the BM/Province player.

For Colony/BM I think the rule of thumb is 4 Colonies around 22-23 turns or so.  The Province player would want to be able to empty them in about the same time it takes the Colony player to get 4 Colonies.  Doing so would maintain the required lead.

Other games where Province rushing is key are Colony Slogs.  The idea is that recovery is difficult and as a result of your attempted recovery you buy a lot of Gold maybe get a Platinum or two and then you realize that your deck is actually pretty good at hitting $8.  Continuing to build up to consistent $11 would be time taking as cycling is slow and then there is no guarantee of reliability.  It's at that stage of the game where you realize you can start to power through the Provinces at a reliable rate.  If your opponent builds to Colony they are too slow, if they mirror you but start later, they are behind and you green hard and continue to maintain a lead.

Okay, this post got long.

tl:dr  Provinces can win Colony games.  You need either exceptionally reliable BM or recovery from slog.  In each case an absence of a powerful engine is often necessary.

[silverspawn]

Being a big fan of treasure map, I've done this several times before. it's really good in province games, really bad in colony games

Is it really bad? I mean, you CAN go for Provinces in a Colony game. This seems like the kind of deck that could handle buying all 8 Provinces (of course, you would probably adjust to pass some Duchies, especially on $6). Moreover, after collision, you can add some drawing terminals, which will make the deck way stronger.

Of course, a good engine is going to catch up on Colonies, but on weak boards, being able to finish up the Province pile in say, 20 turns, is not bad. I doubt simple BMs can beat that, even with Colonies available.

treasure maps are alright, but i woudln't go for masterpiece. just topdeck 4 golds, buy a platinum, buy some more platinum, buy colonies

[florrat]

I don't see this combo work, even in a Province game. I don't know how much turns it takes for Masterpiece to get to 4 Provinces, but I think it will be faster (a little less resistant to greening, but still pretty good in that aspect). And that is bad for a two card combo!

Suppose we manage to connect two treasure maps without any support on turn 7, and on turn 8 we do the big masterpiece buy. Then indeed we have a deck of 4 Gold, 13 Silver, 7 Copper, 3 Estate and 1 Masterpiece (and 1 remaining TM), but one think the OP forgets is the following. All our Golds and at least 10 of our Silvers are in the discard pile. In our deck, we have 10 cards remaining consisting of only Coppers, Estates, and 0~3 Silvers. This means we still have crappy hands turn 9 and 10 (which together has 1 Duchy buy, if we are lucky), and the real greening can start only on turn 11. And then our average buying power is about $8 per 5 cards, which means we have just over 50% chance to buy a Province on a given turn. This means it will take 16~17 turns to reach 4 Provinces. Pure Big Money does just a little worse than that. And this is only under the assumption that your Treasure Maps collide turn 7 without any support.

[Qvist]

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140218/log.50745d1a0cf28ed55d9d6498.1392767674973.txt

I remember this game which I played against jog where I went for Treasure Map/Chapel into a Big Masterpiece.
jog just went Treasure Map/Chapel without Masterpiece and beat me easily.
I was really confused at that point in time, and I'm still not sure. Is Treasure Map/Chapel really faster without Masterpiece really faster than with!?

[soulnet]

I think jog won because of better trashing with Chapel. Buying Province with the Golds also gives him a two turn advantage (fpa + your turn buying Masterpiece), and having no Estate and just one Copper at that point meant that his Golds are going to matter more. Also, in a tight deck with concentrated money, Crossroads works a lot better.

[silverspawn]

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140218/log.50745d1a0cf28ed55d9d6498.1392767674973.txt

I remember this game which I played against jog where I went for Treasure Map/Chapel into a Big Masterpiece.
jog just went Treasure Map/Chapel without Masterpiece and beat me easily.
I was really confused at that point in time, and I'm still not sure. Is Treasure Map/Chapel really faster without Masterpiece really faster than with!?

i can imagine that chapel makes masterpiece a lot worse. the big benefit you get from masterpiece is that it makes your deck less deck less vulnerable to green cards. that's more important the longer the game goes. if there's chapel, everything works better, the game goes faster, it matters less.

[Awaclus]

i can imagine that chapel makes masterpiece a lot worse. the big benefit you get from masterpiece is that it makes your deck less deck less vulnerable to green cards. that's more important the longer the game goes. if there's chapel, everything works better, the game goes faster, it matters less.

That's not entirely true. Masterpiece does not benefit from particularly long games; in fact, since you have some extent of invulnerability to greening, you are able to green very fast (you can start buying Duchies at around the same time when you start buying Provinces and still end up with 4-5 Provinces by the end of turn 14 with the best enablers in the absence of attacks). Also, Chapel gets rid of your bad cards, which allows for a very high money density which is very nice for Masterpiece, and Masterpiece deals with the typical problem of thin decks that green shuts you off completely, so they actually work pretty well together.

However, Chapel being in the kingdom makes it much more likely that there also is an engine strategy there that beats a Masterpiece based BM strategy, so usually Chapel does mean that Masterpiece isn't the best in that kingdom.

[sudgy]

-snip-
tl:dr  Provinces can win Colony games.  You need either exceptionally reliable BM or recovery from slog.  In each case an absence of a powerful engine is often necessary.

I had a game one time where I was building up a bunch of cities with some other stuff.  I was thinking that, because it was a Colony game, I would have time to do it.  My dad realized it and rushed the provinces, ending the game.  If he hadn't done that and had kept going for Colonies I would have won.
After he over-gloated his victory, I definitely did not not stack the randomizers to make KC-Goons-Masquerade in the next kingdom...

[liopoil]

I wouldn't dive into Treasure Maps without support that easily.

So chuck in a Warehouse and it should be pretty decent.

One of my gokodom games had warehouse, treasure map, masterpiece, and trader in it. I went trader-masterpiece, he went warehouse-TM. It ended up as a tie. He got a bit unlucky in not connecting TMs until T8. He bought a province with his 4 gold hand, would buying the masterpiece have been better perhaps?

[silverspawn]

I wouldn't dive into Treasure Maps without support that easily.

So chuck in a Warehouse and it should be pretty decent.

One of my gokodom games had warehouse, treasure map, masterpiece, and trader in it. I went trader-masterpiece, he went warehouse-TM. It ended up as a tie. He got a bit unlucky in not connecting TMs until T8. He bought a province with his 4 gold hand, would buying the masterpiece have been better perhaps?

yea, definitely.

[Davio]

I wouldn't say definitely.

If you already have a couple of Warehouses and 4 Golds in your deck (and maybe some Silvers on turns where you didn't buy anything else useful) I don't think you really need the 9 extra Silvers. The Warehouses and Golds can do a pretty good job on their own getting you to Provinces. If the Masterpiece adds anything, I don't think it's significant.

[sudgy]

I wouldn't say definitely.

If you already have a couple of Warehouses and 4 Golds in your deck (and maybe some Silvers on turns where you didn't buy anything else useful) I don't think you really need the 9 extra Silvers. The Warehouses and Golds can do a pretty good job on their own getting you to Provinces. If the Masterpiece adds anything, I don't think it's significant.

Some other Treasure Map enablers (Chapel, for instance) can't deal with all of the provinces as easily.

[eHalcyon]

I wouldn't say definitely.

If you already have a couple of Warehouses and 4 Golds in your deck (and maybe some Silvers on turns where you didn't buy anything else useful) I don't think you really need the 9 extra Silvers. The Warehouses and Golds can do a pretty good job on their own getting you to Provinces. If the Masterpiece adds anything, I don't think it's significant.

Some other Treasure Map enablers (Chapel, for instance) can't deal with all of the provinces as easily.

Davio was replying to a scenario that has Warehouse though.

[florrat]

I'm still not convinced by this combo (see my earlier post in this thread), so I tested it a bit.

I played 5 solo games on Goko playing Treasure Map + Masterpiece (without support), and I reached 4 Provinces after 13,15,15,17,22 turns. The sample size is too small to conclude anything, but the 4 Provinces + 2 Duchies after 14 turns might be a little too optimistic.

I also simulated Masterpiece BM + Masterpiece&Treasure Map. You can play these strategies against each other here. Neither of the strategies is perfect, but I hope the mistakes cancel out.

The result is: Masterpiece 51 - 49 Masterpiece+TM (after 20k games), so they're basically equally good (or if you think this difference is significant, Masterpiece + TM does worse than pure Masterpiece).
Masterpiece+TM does better than I thought, but my point still stands: we can hardly call this a combo (unless someone can significantly improve my .

Code: [Select]

{
  name: 'Masterpiece Big Money'
  author: 'florrat'
  requires: ['Masterpiece']
  gainPriority: (state, my) ->
      [
        "Masterpiece" if my.coins>=7 && my.countInDeck("Masterpiece")<1
        "Province"
        "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 4
        "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2
        "Masterpiece" if my.coins>=7
        "Gold"
        "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 6
        "Silver"
      ]
}


Code: [Select]

{
  name: 'Masterpiece Treasure Map'
  author: 'florrat'
  requires: ['Masterpiece','Treasure Map']
  gainPriority: (state, my) ->
      [
        "Masterpiece" if my.coins>=12&&my.countInDeck("Masterpiece")==0
        "Treasure Map" if my.countInDeck("Gold")<4 && my.turnsTaken!=7 &&
                          my.turnsTaken!=8 && my.countInDeck("Treasure Map") < 4
        "Province"
        "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 4 && my.countInDeck("Gold") > 3
        "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 2 && my.countInDeck("Gold") > 3
        "Gold"
        "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 6 && my.countInDeck("Gold") > 3
        "Silver"
      ]
  actionPriority: (state,my) ->
      [
        "Treasure Map" if my.countInHand("Treasure Map") >= 2 || my.countInDeck("Gold") > 3
        null
      ]
}

[eHalcyon]

But you simulated it with BM.  What is the comparison between TMap+Masterpiece+Support vs. TMap + Support?  Are the results different for different support cards?

[WanderingWinder]

But you simulated it with BM.  What is the comparison between TMap+Masterpiece+Support vs. TMap + Support?  Are the results different for different support cards?

Well, it would make it more than a two card combo, anyway.

[soulnet]

I'm still not convinced by this combo (see my earlier post in this thread), so I tested it a bit.

I played 5 solo games on Goko playing Treasure Map + Masterpiece (without support), and I reached 4 Provinces after 13,15,15,17,22 turns. The sample size is too small to conclude anything, but the 4 Provinces + 2 Duchies after 14 turns might be a little too optimistic.

I also simulated Masterpiece BM + Masterpiece&Treasure Map. You can play these strategies against each other here. Neither of the strategies is perfect, but I hope the mistakes cancel out.

The result is: Masterpiece 51 - 49 Masterpiece+TM (after 20k games), so they're basically equally good (or if you think this difference is significant, Masterpiece + TM does worse than pure Masterpiece).
Masterpiece+TM does better than I thought, but my point still stands: we can hardly call this a combo (unless someone can significantly improve my .

You need to buy Duchies more aggresively with the TM. Just exchanging the priority of Duchy and Gold makes TM+Masterpiece win 55.3%-44.7%. If you also buy TM more aggresively (why not buy it in turns 7 or 8?), it goes up to almost 60-40.

I used this code for TM+Masterpiece:

Code: [Select]

{
  name: 'Masterpiece Treasure Map'
  author: 'florrat,soulnet'
  requires: ['Masterpiece','Treasure Map']
  gainPriority: (state, my) ->
      [
        "Masterpiece" if my.coins>=12&&my.countInDeck("Masterpiece")==0
        "Treasure Map" if my.countInDeck("Gold")<4
        "Province"
        "Duchy" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 4
        "Duchy" if my.countInDeck("Gold") > 3
        "Estate" if state.gainsToEndGame() <= 4 && my.countInDeck("Gold") > 3
        "Gold"
        "Silver"
      ]
  actionPriority: (state,my) ->
      [
        "Treasure Map" if my.countInHand("Treasure Map") >= 2 || my.countInDeck("Gold") > 3
        null
      ]
}