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Nik

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Dominion: Renaissance
« on: March 25, 2014, 09:09:47 pm »
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Dominion: Renaissance is a fan expansion with a Renaissance theme. It also has themes of vanilla cards, non-attack interaction, and a new card type: Non-action, or cards that are just +1 action when you draw them in hand; and can't be dead cards if you draw them with a Warehouse. On to the cards!
Quote
Artisan Village-Nonaction-$4
+1 card +2 actions. This is not an Action.
Quote
Renaissance Village-Action-$4
+2 cards +1 action. Each other player draws a card.
Quote
Sculptor-Action-$6
All cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
Quote
Artist-Action-$5
Gain a card costing up to $4, put it into your hand.
Quote
Painting-Nonaction-$6
+3 cards +1 Action. This is not an Action.
Quote
Inventor-Action-$3
+1 Action +$1. Play a card from your hand. It doesn't cost an Action.
Quote
Mansion-Nonaction-$6
+$2 +1VP. This doesn't cost an Action.
Quote
Museum-Action-Attack-$5
+1 Action. Look at the top 5 cards of your deck. Discard one, trash one, give one to the player to your left, put one into your hand.
Quote
Riches-Treasure-Nonaction-$7
+2 cards +$2. This is not an Action.
Quote
Scientist-Action-$5
+1 card +$1. Play a card from your hand. That cards numerals are +2.
Quote
Discovery-Action-$3
+$2. Look through your deck, choose five cards to discard. 
Quote
Archaeologist-Action-$5
Gain a Gold, put it into your hand. Each other player gains a Silver, putting it into their hand.
And that's all for now! I have more, but I want to fix these first!
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SirPeebles

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2014, 09:44:22 pm »
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So a Non-action just gives +1 action when you draw it, and is otherwise a dead card?
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2014, 10:15:04 pm »
+1

Need a bit more explanation of this "non-action" card type.  It's not an action, but you still play it during the action phase?  You said "+1 action when you draw them in hand" which doesn't really make sense -- it means that players have to be revealing their hands after every draw, and the bonus is useless if you draw them during clean-up.  Is that intended?

A fairly popular concept is the card that cannot be drawn dead (which you also use to describe this new type... though you probably meant Smithy when you said Warehouse).  It's probably easier to say in the rules that "non-action type cards are played like action cards but do not require an action to play and do not use up actions when played."

Is that what you meant from the start?  Assuming that it is...

Artisan Village -- Keep in mind that this is effectively +3 actions, since it doesn't use up the original action.  It's actually a bit better than that because it can't be drawn dead.  Maybe fine at $4, might need to be $5.  Play test!

Renaissance Village -- Effectively an activated City, with the Council Room penalty.  My gut says that this is probably worth $5 even with the penalty.

Sculptor -- Seems weak to me.  Bridge will usually be better since it comes with +Buy.  I would test this at $4 or $5 first.  $6 seems far too expensive.

Artist -- I know that this card is pretty commonly suggested.  I have no idea how it tests.  Very reasonable to start testing at $5.

Painting -- This is effectively +3 Cards, +2 Actions.  That's way too powerful for $6, probably even too powerful for $7.  Keep in mind that a vanilla +2 Cards, +2 Actions is already considered too good for $6.

Inventor -- "Play a card from your hand" already implies that it doesn't cost an action -- see Throne Room, Cultist.  It's also effectively the same as +1 action, so Inventor is just a one-turn Fishing Village or a Squire used for actions.  With the lack of choice, its effect is strictly worse than Squire despite costing more.  Also note that "play a card from your hand" is worse than a regular +1 action and it also creates the potential for confusing chains with cards like Throne Room and Golem.  What is the intention behind using this phrasing instead of giving +1 action, which is much simpler?

Mansion -- Probably fine, but this is just a non-terminal Monument.  Not particularly interesting.

Museum -- You should specify that the last one goes back on top of the deck.  That's where it goes, right?  And giving a card to another player -- does it go into their hand?  Presumably it doesn't count as a gain, like Masquerade.  This is interesting.  My worry is that it might create too much analysis paralysis in some players, but it shouldn't be too tough.  Pass the worst card, trash the next worst, discard the next worst after that, then figure out which to draw and which to top-deck based on your hand.  Not too bad.  Still, it's a lot.  Definitely worth playtesting though.

Riches -- Treasure-Nonaction makes no sense at all.  +cards on a treasure makes little sense from a gameplay perspective.  What's the intention here?

Scientist -- I discussed the use of "play a card from your hand" above, when it was used with Inventor.  There is an actual purpose for it here, but the potential confusion with chains is still a concern here.  The actual effect is interesting, but also probably broken and definitely confusing.  I mean, does KC now play a card 5 times?  I guess not because "three" is actually written out as a word? 

But it gets unreal with anything that gives more than one vanilla bonus... just consider Worker's Village.  And Tribute, oh man, Tribute -- reveal 4 cards, get +4 of various bonuses for each one?  Harvest -- reveal 6 cards, +$3 for each different one?

It can also do some really weird things.  For example, it neutralizes Militia and Goons but makes Torturer into a pretty much guaranteed Curse attack (discard 4 cards isn't really a choice).  It'll also feel inconsistent.  Remodel is still going to give you one card (which now costs up to $4 more than the trashed card) whereas Stonemason will give you FOUR cards (still costing less than the trashed card).

Oh, and it can be chained -- Scientist on a Scientist to give the next card +4....

I don't know, maybe it can work after a *lot* of tweaking.  But you're going to have to think about the implications with every possible combination.  In the end, it's probably just too confusing for what it does.

Discovery -- You probably need to specify that you shuffle the deck after.  Possible issues -- can be pretty slow to play (you're asking a player to look through potentially dozens of cards).  Its effect is almost (though not quite) strictly superior to Navigator.  It's probably too good with Tunnel.

Archaeologist -- the benefit to other players is too good.  Even if the Silver went into others' discards, it's a tough call.  Explorer is probably better, and Explorer isn't that great.  Maybe try Archaeologist at $4?





Some general thoughts:

- "Vanilla cards" is not a good theme.  Vanilla is often boring, which is not what you want in an expansion, and that design space is already mostly tapped out anyway.

- This non-action thing could work, but you have to be careful with it.  It needs to be better defined and it needs to be considered carefully in balance.  Being impossible to draw dead is a really big deal, and it (usually) more than outweighs the drawbacks of not having an Action typing.  It could be a negative on a board with KC (which can't play a nonaction) or other cards that care about action type in particular (Vineyard and Graverobber, to name a couple).  But the never-dead thing really is big.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2014, 10:34:38 pm »
+2

Dominion: Renaissance is a fan expansion with a Renaissance theme. It also has themes of vanilla cards, non-attack interaction, and a new card type: Non-action, or cards that are just +1 action when you draw them in hand; and can't be dead cards if you draw them with a Warehouse. On to the cards!

I'm confused. You never draw cards dead with Warehouse. Warehouse gives +1 Action.

I cannot divine from your description what Nonactions actually do. So I won't comment on those cards now.

Quote
Renaissance Village-Action-$4
+2 cards +1 action. Each other player draws a card.

Donald tested this exact card for $2. It was too powerful with Militia (and other similar discard attacks).

Without discard attacks, this card is really weak. Like, even at $2 it would be weak. When you play it, you're playing it from your hand, which means that even though you draw 2 cards, your handsize only increases by 1. Everyone else's handsize also increases by 1. So you paid $4 for a card that benefits everyone else as much as you.

Quote
Sculptor-Action-$6
All cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.

So it's Princess without +1 Buy. I don't think that's interesting enough.

Quote
Artist-Action-$5
Gain a card costing up to $4, put it into your hand.

I'm not sure how this would play. It might be fine, power-wise. But since it's terminal, you're often going to be gaining Silver with it, which isn't so exciting. Maybe that's not a deal breaker. Again, Donald tested similar cards and none of them made it into a set, but I don't think it was really clear why they didn't make the cut.

Quote
Inventor-Action-$3
+1 Action +$1. Play a card from your hand. It doesn't cost an Action.

Uh, isn't this almost identical to [+2 Actions; +$1]? If so, it's strictly worse that Squire, which costs $2.

Quote
Museum-Action-Attack-$5
+1 Action. Look at the top 5 cards of your deck. Discard one, trash one, give one to the player to your left, put one into your hand.

"Give" isn't a well-defined Dominion term. You could say "pass" in which case the card would go into the player on your left's hand. Otherwise you could say, "put one in the discard pile of the player to your left".

In general, this could be cool. It's a neat variation on the common "look at the top X cards and put one in your hand" idea. If it's too strong, I suggest reducing it to 4 cards and eliminating the "give one to the player to your left" part.

Quote
Scientist-Action-$5
+1 card +$1. Play a card from your hand. That cards numerals are +2.

Yowza! That seems pretty strong. A few cards like this were playtested and I think they were found to be too wonky. But this one might be different enough with the Peddler bit on the front (+1 Card; +$1). I think it's worth a shot! Seems like a cool concept.

Quote
Discovery-Action-$3
+$2. Look through your deck, choose five cards to discard. 

You need to have "and shuffle the rest" at the end, there. Overall I worry this is going to be really slow when you have a large deck.

Quote
Archaeologist-Action-$5
Gain a Gold, put it into your hand. Each other player gains a Silver, putting it into their hand.

I think this is way too weak. You have to spend an Action and play this card from your hand in order to get that Gold in your hand. So you have a 5-card hand, including a Gold, and you're down an Action. Each other player now has a 6-card hand, including a free Silver. It's like they played an Action that said, [+1 Card; +1 Action; gain a Silver, putting it into your hand].

Here's a tip: whenever you're giving your opponents a bonus, remember that it's basically like them playing a card that says [+1 Card; +1 Action; whatever the bonus is] only they didn't even have to buy the card that does it. You did. Gaining a Silver into hand is a weak $5 effect. Cantrip gaining a Silver in hand is ridiculously powerful.

Long story short: the Silvers shouldn't go into the other players' hands.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 10:40:00 pm by LastFootnote »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2014, 10:58:07 pm »
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Whoops, I guess my gut was really wrong about Renaissance Village. Or it assumed Militia.  :P
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2014, 11:05:29 pm »
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Whoops, I guess my gut was really wrong about Renaissance Village. Or it assumed Militia.  :P

By your post, I assumed you thought it gave +2 Actions. It's only +1, though.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2014, 11:23:38 pm »
+1

Whoops, I guess my gut was really wrong about Renaissance Village. Or it assumed Militia.  :P

By your post, I assumed you thought it gave +2 Actions. It's only +1, though.

Oh, so I did.  I must have read it as a non-action.  Though even assuming it's Lab with the penalty, I don't think I would have pegged it as weak at $2.  I guess I'm underestimating how much it hurts to give others a card.  Or, more likely, I'm underestimating how many more cards the penalty would give to others when it's on a non-terminal vs. a terminal.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2014, 05:35:04 am »
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Whoops, I guess my gut was really wrong about Renaissance Village. Or it assumed Militia.  :P

By your post, I assumed you thought it gave +2 Actions. It's only +1, though.

Oh, so I did.  I must have read it as a non-action.  Though even assuming it's Lab with the penalty, I don't think I would have pegged it as weak at $2.  I guess I'm underestimating how much it hurts to give others a card.  Or, more likely, I'm underestimating how many more cards the penalty would give to others when it's on a non-terminal vs. a terminal.

As it's written it's a complete wash, except you had to go through the effort of buying the card. That's how Governor can be $5 card with 2 other options even though Lab exists. Something more strategically divisive (like gaining a Copper in hand, or trashing) can be interesting if it's a complete wash, as you know you'd only get it when you know you'd benefit more than others, but something as universal as +1 card doesn't really fit that. IIRC there were simulations that showed that Laboratory never hurt your deck.

If it was +2 Actions it would be an interesting $4 (or even $3) Village. Council Room can justify being more expensive than Smithy because the +buy is likely to be very helpful, and likewise you'd be more likely to get good use out of the 2nd action than if it were just a Vanilla Village.

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Nik

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2014, 08:22:41 am »
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Thank you for your feedback! I have improved the cards and and added some new ones (some are not in here since they are unchanged); I would like to know what you think of them:
Sculptor-Action-$5
All cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.
-----
Artist-Action-$5
+1 Action. Gain a card costing up to $4, putting it into your hand.
-----
Inventor-Nonaction-$4
+1 card +1 Action +$1. This is not an Action.
-----
Riches-Nonaction-$6
+2 cards +$2. This is not an Action.
-----
Scientist-Action-$5
+1 card +$1. Play a card from your hand; it's numbers, written or in numerals, are +1.
-----
Archaeologist-Action-$5
+1 buy.Gain a Gold, putting it into your hand; each other player gains a Silver, putting it on top of their deck.
-----
And the new ones:
Committee-Action-$4
+3 cards +1 Action. Each other player draws a card.
-----
Salesman-Action-$3
+$2. The next time you buy a card, you may gain an extra one.
-----
Circus-Action-$7
+2 cards +1 Action +$2.
-----
Accountant-Treasure-$5
This is worth $1 per Treasure you play this turn.
-----
Playwrite-Action-$4
+2 cards +2 Actions. Each other player gets +$1 on their next turn.
-----
Patron-Action-$5
+1 card +1 buy. The player to your left draws up to 4 cards (but must draw at least 1.) For each card they draw, +$1.
-----
Commission-Action-Attack-$4
+$2. Each other player discard a Treasure (or reveals a hand with no Treasure cards.)
-----
Bard-Action-$4
+3 Actions. Each other player draws a card.
-----
Bronze Mine-Nonaction-$3
+1 card +1 action. Gain a Copper, put it into your hand. This is not an Action.
-----
Science Fair-Nonaction-$6
+1 card +1 Action +1 buy +$1. This is not an Action.
-----
City-State-Victory-Treasure-$7
3VP $2.
-----
Renaissance Market-Action-$6
+2 cards +$2 +1 buy.
-----
Bookseller-Action-Attack-$4
+$2. Look at the top 5 cards of the player to your left's deck. Discard up to 5.
-----
Schoolhouse-Nonaction-$5
+3 cards. This is not an Action.
-----
Theater-Action-$5
+$2. When another player plays an Action card, reveal then discard this from your hand. If you do, they play then trash that card.


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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2014, 08:40:57 am »
+2

I still have no idea how Nonactions work.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2014, 10:13:38 am »
+5

I'm going to play a little game I call "Card Association".

Sculptor-Action-$5
All cards cost $2 less this turn, but not less than $0.



Artist-Action-$5
+1 Action. Gain a card costing up to $4, putting it into your hand.



Archaeologist-Action-$5
+1 buy.Gain a Gold, putting it into your hand; each other player gains a Silver, putting it on top of their deck.

And the new ones:
Committee-Action-$4
+3 cards +1 Action. Each other player draws a card.



Salesman-Action-$3
+$2. The next time you buy a card, you may gain an extra one.



Circus-Action-$7
+2 cards +1 Action +$2.



Accountant-Treasure-$5
This is worth $1 per Treasure you play this turn.



Commission-Action-Attack-$4
+$2. Each other player discard a Treasure (or reveals a hand with no Treasure cards.)



Bronze Mine-Nonaction-$3
+1 card +1 action. Gain a Copper, put it into your hand. This is not an Action.



City-State-Victory-Treasure-$7
3VP $2.




SUMMARY
Any fan card should be sufficiently different from published cards to be interesting. If you're designing cards, you should know all the existing cards pretty well.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 10:15:38 am by LastFootnote »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2014, 10:34:55 am »
+1

I'm going to play a little game I call "Card Association".


Bronze Mine-Nonaction-$3
+1 card +1 action. Gain a Copper, put it into your hand. This is not an Action.



SUMMARY
Any fan card should be sufficiently different from published cards to be interesting. If you're designing cards, you should know all the existing cards pretty well.

I don't think this one is fair. This is contest winning fan card "Almoner" combined with oft proposed fan card "Hidden Village", but not like any official card. People don't think of IGG for its treasure effect
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 10:46:54 am by NoMoreFun »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2014, 10:48:48 am »
0

I don't think this one is fair. This is contest winning fan card "Almoner" combined with oft proposed fan card "Hidden Village", but not like any official card. People don't think of IGG for its treasure effect

I agree that it's a bit of a stretch. My reasoning was that [+1 Card;+1 Action] is not that far from [Treasure worth $1]. But they certainly won't play the same. So, yeah. My mistake!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 11:00:45 am by LastFootnote »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2014, 11:15:04 am »
+2

I'm not trying to be rude or patronising here, but this is seriously worth a read: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=699.0 . I know my first fan set had all kinds of issues that were fixed by reading this. Especially think about how the cards compare with existing cards.

You can generally assume with vanilla cards that if it doesn't exist, it's for a reason. For example "+$2, +2 Cards" on its own was left out by Donald X because it is too easy to compare to other cards, and doesn't really have any interesting strategy behind it. "+3 Actions" is very similar to "+2 Actions" and it will never really come down to strategy to make full use of the card. Same goes for +buy; Squire has +2 buys so it looks appropriate alongside the other options in both it and Steward. There are a few vanilla cards outside the base set, but they either fill a niche (eg. Worker's Village), have another interesting effect that has nothing to do with playing it (Market Square, Hunting Grounds) or actually feel quite unlike any other card when you play with them (Oasis, Junk Dealer), or are vanilla introducing a new mechanic (Candlestick Maker, Marauder).

Basically you've set yourself a very tough challenge with the theme. Only vanilla card I've ever found interesting was "+2 Cards, +$1, +1 buy" for $4, and even then I think it had an additional effect (can't remember where I saw it)

Also if you want to present your cards as a set (since you made this thread and wanted the other one closed) there should also be sufficient variety between cards. The card that you can draw dead to resume your action phase (nonaction) may be an interesting idea, but there's only really one distinctive way to do it. All the "nonaction" cards are very similar. That's not to say you can't have the mechanic more than once, but think about how those cards would play; Shanty Town, Mining Village and Nobles are all very different cards even though they all "villages".
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Nik

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2014, 08:36:49 pm »
0

Thank you, LastFootnote, for pointing these out. I have changed some cards:
Salesman-Action-$4
+$2. The next time you gain a card, gain a copy of it.
----- 
Accountant-Action-Treasure-$4
+1 card +1 Action. When you play this, it is worth $1 per Action you have in play (including this one, if you played it.)
-----
Commission-Action-Attack-$5
+$2. Each other player either discards a Treasure card costing $1 or more (or reveals he has no Treasure costing $1 or more.)
-----
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2014, 08:59:00 pm »
+1

Still need an explanation of the nonaction type. Was my assumption correct?
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SirPeebles

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2014, 09:50:58 pm »
+2

Accountant-Action-Treasure-$4
+1 card +1 Action. When you play this, it is worth $1 per Action you have in play (including this one, if you played it.)

I don't intend to be rude, but did you think about how this would play in a real game?  It is extremely overpowered.  If you are really looking for feedback, I suggest that you slow way down and focus on a few cards at a time.  If you don't have a chance to playtest, at least really imagine playing through a few games in your head.  Look for cases where they'd be strong.  Look for cases where they'd be weak.  How do they compare to existing cards?  Would the card be fun to play?  Would it be fun to play against someone using this card?  If your idea seems to pass those tests, then come and share it here and ask for feedback.  By focusing on just a few and thinking about the feedback, you'll get better at it and your other card ideas will improve.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Renaissance
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2014, 12:17:07 am »
+1

Accountant-Action-Treasure-$4
+1 card +1 Action. When you play this, it is worth $1 per Action you have in play (including this one, if you played it.)

I don't intend to be rude, but did you think about how this would play in a real game?  It is extremely overpowered.  If you are really looking for feedback, I suggest that you slow way down and focus on a few cards at a time.  If you don't have a chance to playtest, at least really imagine playing through a few games in your head.  Look for cases where they'd be strong.  Look for cases where they'd be weak.  How do they compare to existing cards?  Would the card be fun to play?  Would it be fun to play against someone using this card?  If your idea seems to pass those tests, then come and share it here and ask for feedback.  By focusing on just a few and thinking about the feedback, you'll get better at it and your other card ideas will improve.

If you (Nik) have a fair bit of time, it may be worth it to check out the various contest threads on the mini-set design contest board.  Look at the entries and think critically about them.  Which ones do you think are poorly designed, and why?  Are they too boring?  Too confusing?  Too powerful, too weak, too swingy?  Then see what other people said about them in the discussion.  Thinking critically about others' cards can be easier than doing the same to your own, and it can give you an idea of what to avoid or what to focus on in your own designs.  It will also give you an idea of concepts that are pretty common among fan cards and help you avoid them.

Before that, you should familiarize yourself with the official cards if you haven't already.  Know what's been done.  When you come up with a new card, identify which official cards are most similar and consider how yours compares to those cards.  Is it sufficiently different to be interesting?  Is it appropriately priced in relation to those cards?

And it can also be good to read over the Secret Histories, which can give you hints about concepts that don't work, or at least are extremely difficult to get right.

I know that's a lot of stuff.  Don't worry about looking at other fan cards if it's overwhelming.  Knowing the official cards is absolutely necessary though, and skimming through the secret histories would be extremely helpful (and is really interesting anyway).
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