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[dominion123]

I encountered something strange I think should not happen. I had chapel and market square in my hand, and trashed 3 cards including overgrown estate. I reacted with market square and gained a gold. That's fine. After that, I drew one card because of the overgrown estate, another market square, and then it allowed me to react with this as well. Now, as I read the overgrown estate, "when you trash this, +1 card", it doesn't seem like the draw should happen before the trashing of the card. And if that was the case, then it doesn't make sense that I drew the card after I had reacted with my first market square.

Any explanations for this, is it maybe a bug?

EDIT: Well, perhaps if the drawing of +1 card from the overgrown estate indeed happened before it was trashed, then it would make sense that the reaction of the first market square could be done if the other cards were trashed in succession before the overgrown estate. This is the only explanation I can think of. Still, I think that overgrown estate should be trashed before the card is drawn, so it's still possibly a bug.

[sudgy]

I encountered something strange I think should not happen. I had chapel and market square in my hand, and trashed 3 cards including overgrown estate. I reacted with market square and gained a gold. That's fine. After that, I drew one card because of the overgrown estate, another market square, and then it allowed me to react with this as well. Now, as I read the overgrown estate, "when you trash this, +1 card", it doesn't seem like the draw should happen before the trashing of the card. And if that was the case, then it doesn't make sense that I drew the card after I had reacted with my first market square.

Any explanations for this, is it maybe a bug?

This is what is supposed to happen.  The drawing a card happens at the exact same time as trashing the overgrown estate, and when you drew the market square, you were still in the process of trashing (as the drawing a card was a part of the process).

[dominion123]

I encountered something strange I think should not happen. I had chapel and market square in my hand, and trashed 3 cards including overgrown estate. I reacted with market square and gained a gold. That's fine. After that, I drew one card because of the overgrown estate, another market square, and then it allowed me to react with this as well. Now, as I read the overgrown estate, "when you trash this, +1 card", it doesn't seem like the draw should happen before the trashing of the card. And if that was the case, then it doesn't make sense that I drew the card after I had reacted with my first market square.

Any explanations for this, is it maybe a bug?

This is what is supposed to happen.  The drawing a card happens at the exact same time as trashing the overgrown estate, and when you drew the market square, you were still in the process of trashing (as the drawing a card was a part of the process).

But shouldn't events in dominion happen in a well-defined order? I don't get the logic of two different things happening at the same time in dominion. In my mind, it's kind of confusing.

[Watno]

All "when you trash..." effects happen at the same time (before actually moving the card to the trash pile), so you can choose the order.
You could even discard a Market Square to gain a Gold, then draw it again (due to reshuffling before the draw because of an empty deck) with Overgrown Estate's , and then discard it again for another Gold.

The same thing is true for "when you gain" or "when you buy" effects, but as far as I know this is not yet correctly implemented in Goko Dominion Online.

EDIT: To your last reply. If multiple things happen at the same time, you can choose the order.

[DG]

Goko does not give you a decision in the order of the on-trash events. What it should do is

(1) offer you a choice from any possible on-trash events
(2) execute the chosen on-trash event
(3) if there are any more possible on-trash events, return to step 1

By that logic it is more obvious that you can keep on triggering on trash events even though they may not have been possible when the action was started. There is a parallel here with secret chamber and moat. You can reveal a secret chamber, take a moat from the deck and put it into hand, reveal the moat, then reveal the secret chamber again and put the moat back onto the deck.

[qmech]

But shouldn't events in dominion happen in a well-defined order? I don't get the logic of two different things happening at the same time in dominion. In my mind, it's kind of confusing.

There's a weakly defined order.  If you play a Witch, then you're "playing an Attack card", so opponents have a chance to reveal a Moat.  If no-one does, then everyone gains a Curse.  That's lots of events happening at the same time, and the rule is that you start from the current player and work clockwise.  If that still isn't enough to decide what order things happen in, then the current players gets to decide.

So there's a rough order, with some flexibility at each level.  You can't wait to see whether your opponent plays their Minion or Pirate Ship for the attack before revealing a Moat, as the "playing an Attack card" stage always happens before starting to work through the card text.

[dominion123]

It's definitely consistent if players may choose the order of events in such situations, but I agree with what DG says; it should be more obvious and clear that you have this choice. In fact, in this situation it should be possible to choose to trash the overgrown estate before drawing a card hence blocking your ability to react with the market square. Not that it matters in this case (you could just choose not to react), but in general I don't know if the lack of these choices actually may have a practical impact.

But in the moat secret chamber example, how come you are able to react with the secret chamber twice? Or do you have two of them?

[Gveoniz]

But in the moat secret chamber example, how come you are able to react with the secret chamber twice? Or do you have two of them?

You can react with one as many time as you like. You can also do that with other reaction cards that don't leave you hand.

[Awaclus]

But in the moat secret chamber example, how come you are able to react with the secret chamber twice? Or do you have two of them?

You can react with one as many time as you like. You can also do that with other reaction cards that don't leave you hand.

And that's why all of the Reaction cards either leave your hand (Market Square, Horse Traders, Fool's Gold) or don't do anything useful when revealed multiple times (Moat, Trader, Watchtower).

[GendoIkari]

But in the moat secret chamber example, how come you are able to react with the secret chamber twice? Or do you have two of them?

You can react with one as many time as you like. You can also do that with other reaction cards that don't leave you hand.

And that's why all of the Reaction cards either leave your hand (Market Square, Horse Traders, Fool's Gold) or don't do anything useful when revealed multiple times (Moat, Trader, Watchtower).

With Secret Chamber being the lone exception... when you use Secret Chamber twice, with another reaction in the middle.

[eHalcyon]

It's definitely consistent if players may choose the order of events in such situations, but I agree with what DG says; it should be more obvious and clear that you have this choice. In fact, in this situation it should be possible to choose to trash the overgrown estate before drawing a card hence blocking your ability to react with the market square. Not that it matters in this case (you could just choose not to react), but in general I don't know if the lack of these choices actually may have a practical impact.

But in the moat secret chamber example, how come you are able to react with the secret chamber twice? Or do you have two of them?

Blocking? Even after resolving OGE, you can react with Market Square. Even one that you just drew.

[AJD]

In fact, in this situation it should be possible to choose to trash the overgrown estate before drawing a card hence blocking your ability to react with the market square.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. But you have to trash the Overgrown Estate before drawing a card.

The first thing that happens is the Overgrown Estate lands in the trash. This makes two things happen:
(1) You must draw a card.
(2) You can react with any Market Squares that are in your hand.

Since (1) and (2) happen for the same reason, at the same time, you can choose the order in which to execute them: (1) can happen before (2), after (2), or between multiple instances of (2).

Because (1) can happen before (2), this means that you can carry out (2) using a Market Square that wasn't in your hand when the Overgrown Estate hit the trash pile: you carry out (1), and then the time for carrying out (2) isn't over yet, so you carry out (2).

[Watno]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. But you have to trash the Overgrown Estate before drawing a card.

The first thing that happens is the Overgrown Estate lands in the trash. This makes two things happen:
(1) You must draw a card.
(2) You can react with any Market Squares that are in your hand.

I'm pretty sure that is untrue. The card should only be placed in the trash pile after all "when you trash" effects have been resolved, similiralily to how you only gain a card you bought after resolving all "when you buy" effects, or an attack is only resolved after all "when someone play an attack" effects.

[eHalcyon]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. But you have to trash the Overgrown Estate before drawing a card.

The first thing that happens is the Overgrown Estate lands in the trash. This makes two things happen:
(1) You must draw a card.
(2) You can react with any Market Squares that are in your hand.

I'm pretty sure that is untrue. The card should only be placed in the trash pile after all "when you trash" effects have been resolved, similiralily to how you only gain a card you bought after resolving all "when you buy" effects, or an attack is only resolved after all "when someone play an attack" effects.

I think AJD is correct.

Fortress says: "When you trash this, put it into your hand."  If you are correct, then Fortress moves directly back into your hand and never hits the trash.  But the official FAQ says:

If this is trashed, you take it from the trash and put it into your hand.

So it seems that Fortress does go into the trash, but only briefly.

[DG]

There also is an on-trash effect for possession that sets aside a card rather than putting it into the graveyard.

[AJD]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. But you have to trash the Overgrown Estate before drawing a card.

The first thing that happens is the Overgrown Estate lands in the trash. This makes two things happen:
(1) You must draw a card.
(2) You can react with any Market Squares that are in your hand.

I'm pretty sure that is untrue. The card should only be placed in the trash pile after all "when you trash" effects have been resolved, similiralily to how you only gain a card you bought after resolving all "when you buy" effects, or an attack is only resolved after all "when someone play an attack" effects.

You're wrong.

In particular, you buy a card, then resolve when-you-buy effects, then you gain it, and then you resolve when-you-gain effects.

Likewise, you trash a card, and then resolve when-you-trash effects.

When-someone-plays-an-attack is a weird case, I admit, but even those take place after the Attack card hits the play area (though before its on-play effects are executed).

[Donald X.]

The general rule is, for any "when x happens, do y," y happens directly *after* x happens. I would apply this to all games that don't specify otherwise (Magic: The Gathering is a significant exception). For example: "When you pass Go, collect $200." When do you collect $200? Directly *after* passing Go.

[Watno]

Oops, I guess I always had that wrong then. Sorry!

[GendoIkari]

The general rule is, for any "when x happens, do y," y happens directly *after* x happens. I would apply this to all games that don't specify otherwise (Magic: The Gathering is a significant exception). For example: "When you pass Go, collect $200." When do you collect $200? Directly *after* passing Go.

Why is MTG an exception? "When a creature enters the battlefield, gain 1 life"... you gain the 1 life after the creature is actually on the battlefield.

[Geronimoo]

The general rule is, for any "when x happens, do y," y happens directly *after* x happens. I would apply this to all games that don't specify otherwise (Magic: The Gathering is a significant exception). For example: "When you pass Go, collect $200." When do you collect $200? Directly *after* passing Go.

Why is MTG an exception? "When a creature enters the battlefield, gain 1 life"... you gain the 1 life after the creature is actually on the battlefield.

Say you're on 3 life. You play the creature and it enters the battlefield. The life gain trigger goes on the stack. Your opponent might then play Lightning Bolt, killing you before you gain the 1 life.

[GendoIkari]

The general rule is, for any "when x happens, do y," y happens directly *after* x happens. I would apply this to all games that don't specify otherwise (Magic: The Gathering is a significant exception). For example: "When you pass Go, collect $200." When do you collect $200? Directly *after* passing Go.

Why is MTG an exception? "When a creature enters the battlefield, gain 1 life"... you gain the 1 life after the creature is actually on the battlefield.

Say you're on 3 life. You play the creature and it enters the battlefield. The life gain trigger goes on the stack. Your opponent might then play Lightning Bolt, killing you before you gain the 1 life.

That makes sense. The difference is that other events have the potential to come after x, but before y. But in both games, like Donald and others were saying, with "when x, do y"; x has already occurred when you do y.

[Kirian]

Oops, I guess I always had that wrong then. Sorry!

Maybe or maybe not.  Lots of people get "when you gain" confused with "when you would gain," both of which exist on cards.  You might have been thinking about the latter.

[Watno]

Nope, that wasn't it.
I'm pretty surprised by the implications this has on Border Village + watchtower.

[eHalcyon]

Nope, that wasn't it.
I'm pretty surprised by the implications this has on Border Village + watchtower.

What implications?

[Watno]

For example, if you buy a Border Village and gain something else (say a Witch) with it, you can't put the Witch on on top of your deck with Watchtower and then put the BV on top of it.