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Author Topic: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread  (Read 15542 times)

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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2014, 01:55:23 pm »
+2

I don't see how Upgrade is any better than Hermit here for winning the Hermit Split. Both trash Estates and gain Hermits, but Hermit is much more flexible in doing so; plus Hermit is Hermit which is progress towards the split. So to me the options are either Hermit/nothing or Hermit/Chapel to open on 5/2.

And I really don't think you want the Chapel. The main objective is to get Hermits, so if you're trashing your hand you're not buying a Hermit unless it's an edge case like Chapel and 2 or 3 Estates. Well if it was 2 Estates then Copper would have been better. If it's 3 Estates then I'm sure that's unlikely enough that getting nothing is better.

Keeping the Coppers isn't the best thing in the world but I think amassing Hermits is far more important than thinning here. He Jimmmmm hadn't gotten a Chapel he would have had 7 Hermits or something ridiculous.

I don't think my opening is "terrible" at all, other than the parts I couldn't change.

The main difference between Upgrade/Hermit is of course that it's nonterminal, so you can trash Estate/Chapel with Upgrade and play a Hermit on the same turn. The other big thing is that Upgrade pairs better with Chapel, which I really think is useful here. I already said this, but the Chapel/Upgrade opening does let you gain a Gold or two early on which allows you to buy/gain a $3 on the same turn. This helps you win the splits. The last difference is that Upgrade lets you do Bank stuff later on which could be pretty important if the rest of the resources are split pretty evenly, you don't know at the start of the game that your opponent isn't doing a mirror.

The article for this combo advises against removing your Coppers. They create the "draw" for your Madmen after you discard all your Market Squares.

Well that's great that the article says it, but I don't see that it's true in general. You can swap Coppers for Golds with Upgrade/Chapel/Market Square and you won't have any issue drawing your deck with multiple Madmen. You get to play your Hermits a lot faster too.
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ravi

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2014, 02:31:22 pm »
0

Ravi vs KingZog3

Game 1:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140329/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1396115072485.txt

I go Engine vs his Money.  I stock up on Markets until I think I can go City.  I finally do and once it gets going he resigns because he realizes that he has been beat. 1-0

Game 2:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140329/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1396116008351.txt

I start very disorganized with the thought of eventually going for Vineyards and Fairgrounds.  There is no buy support, though.  I do end up getting 6 point Fairgrounds going but it is too late and he finishes on Provinces. 1-1

Game 3:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140329/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1396116647760.txt

I go for an early City or two but then try to stock up on Swindlers.  I get an early Quarry which really helps me to build up my engine.  Once it is built up I can just slog his deck with Tacticians, curses and other stuff.  In the end I am able to end on 3 piles very comfortably.

Game 4:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140329/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1396117196587.txt

Pretty similar strategies.  Though I go for the early Baker instead of a second Soothsayer.  I lose the curse split but my extra bakers help me to grab and win the province race in the end.
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-Stef-

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2014, 05:08:41 pm »
+2

On AdamH Game 1. I'm baffled by you not opening Upgrade/Chapel
...
I don't think my opening is "terrible" at all, other than the parts I couldn't change.

I just saw your video, unaware of this discussion.
It did physically hurt to see you not open upgrade/chapel.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2014, 05:32:07 pm »
0

On AdamH Game 1. I'm baffled by you not opening Upgrade/Chapel
...
I don't think my opening is "terrible" at all, other than the parts I couldn't change.

I just saw your video, unaware of this discussion.
It did physically hurt to see you not open upgrade/chapel.
You should get that checked out by a medical professional ;)

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2014, 06:04:17 pm »
+1

...

Please link your game logs using gokosalvager.com as the domain instead.  My name forwards to gokosalvager.com right now, but it won't do so for much longer.
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TheMirrorMan

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2014, 08:57:41 pm »
+3

Let me tell you 'bout the burts and the bees

TheMirrorMan - burtsbees : 3 - 0.

Honestly, not much to say about the games. Quick recap :

Game 1 : burtsbees begins, TheMirrorMan wins

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140329/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1396137629723.txt



Code: [Select]
Trade Route, Workshop, Bureaucrat, Conspirator, Cutpurse, Feodum, Quarry, Treasure Map, Cultist, Harvest
I got 5/2 here against his 4/3. Cultist on the board, yeah ... Ruins split won by 7/3. He tries some stuff with trade route but by the time he can actually do stuff, I'm already up three provinces.

Game 2 : TheMirrorMan begins, TheMirrorMan wins

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140329/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1396138664046.txt



Code: [Select]
Hermit, Menagerie, Urchin, Workshop, Alchemist, Envoy, Farming Village, Procession, Apprentice, Grand Market
Well, let's see. There's trashin with Hermit and Mercenary, an engine with Farming Village/Envoy or Alchemist and + buy with Grand Market. What do you do here ?
Menagerie counters the Mercenary attacks - Which I think is the reason him opening Menagerie/Envoy ? I go for Hermit/Potion, although I'm not sure if maybe an Urchin would have been better here.

Plan is simple : Alchemist chain, Mercenary on the end, get some money in, buy Grand Markets and voilà. Only thing is it takes so freaking long to get there. The VP sheet looks horrible - he's quickly at 3 Provinces while I am still getting my deck together - but now it is ideal. I need to buy duchies because of PPR but it seems to work out in the end. I dunno, I don't feel as if I played this well.

Game 3 : TheMirrorMan begins, TheMirrorMan wins

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140329/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1396139526260.txt



Code: [Select]
Vagrant, Sage, Steward, Storeroom, Salvager, Throne Room, Knights, Altar, Border Village, Harem
burtsbees' comment : "I don't like games with knights". Well, that's the first buy on my list here :-)

But seriously, what do you do here ? Trashing with Steward and Salvager, but no extra money, no real draw ...

I like Sage but on this board I don't see it doing much - no real skipping needed. burtsbees opening Sage/TR is just plain out wrong I think.

I open Silver/Salvager and indeed get the first knight. He then needs to catch up (3 - 3 on knights), but then stalls due to lack of economy. By taking the last few knights, he is unable to come back.

Thanks for the games burtsbees and good luck for the next rounds!
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 09:09:16 pm by TheMirrorMan »
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2014, 11:17:29 pm »
0

On AdamH Game 1. I'm baffled by you not opening Upgrade/Chapel
...
I don't think my opening is "terrible" at all, other than the parts I couldn't change.

I just saw your video, unaware of this discussion.
It did physically hurt to see you not open upgrade/chapel.

Look, I understand that you're the best Dominion player in the world, but I still don't see why Upgrade/Chapel is better than Hermit/Chapel, and I don't see why Hermit/Chapel is better than Hermit/nothing. I really really don't see it. How do I assume my opponent is going to do anything but H/MS?

I mean, I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I just don't understand it. Would either you (or Mic Qsenoch) be so kind as to give me some detail on how this works?
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #58 on: March 30, 2014, 12:11:50 am »
+1

On AdamH Game 1. I'm baffled by you not opening Upgrade/Chapel
...
I don't think my opening is "terrible" at all, other than the parts I couldn't change.

I just saw your video, unaware of this discussion.
It did physically hurt to see you not open upgrade/chapel.

Look, I understand that you're the best Dominion player in the world, but I still don't see why Upgrade/Chapel is better than Hermit/Chapel, and I don't see why Hermit/Chapel is better than Hermit/nothing. I really really don't see it. How do I assume my opponent is going to do anything but H/MS?

I mean, I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I just don't understand it. Would either you (or Mic Qsenoch) be so kind as to give me some detail on how this works?

I will try to explain it here (even though i'm neither of the two).
First off: I don't say that opening Upgrade/Chapel instead of Hermit/Nothing helps you win the Hermit split if your opponent rushed Hermits from the start on. But i don't think it gets you considerably behind on that. If you get lucky in your shuffle later you can get  up to 3 Hermits on a Single turn later on (3Copper,1Estate, Upgrade in Hand drawing a Hermit) but getting 2Hermits on the Upgrade turn is more likely than with a Hermit instead.(just because you can still play a Hermit afterwards and because of the one additional card that often makes the difference between $2 and $3 at the Hermit rush early on).
That said, both Chapel and Upgrade can serve as "Hermits" in your megaturn(just for the trashing part) 5 Madmen 5Market Squares 1 Chapel and 1 Upgrade can get you a Megaturn getting you up to 10 Golds that turn. And you can get a few Golds* in the mid-game aswell once you started getting  some MS.  So 5 Provinces on your mega-turn should easily be possible this way.

All this is only a comment on the opening buys here and does not take into account the strategy your opponent did choose against you.
And all in all i still think it's a tough call and certainly not a huge advantage over the Hermit opening.

*If you are just following the plain H/M Combo you wont get those Golds in between because you are very limited on the cards you can trash (max 2 of the 3 Estates)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 12:20:34 am by MarkowKette »
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #59 on: March 30, 2014, 01:08:48 am »
0

On AdamH Game 1. I'm baffled by you not opening Upgrade/Chapel
...
I don't think my opening is "terrible" at all, other than the parts I couldn't change.

I just saw your video, unaware of this discussion.
It did physically hurt to see you not open upgrade/chapel.

Look, I understand that you're the best Dominion player in the world, but I still don't see why Upgrade/Chapel is better than Hermit/Chapel, and I don't see why Hermit/Chapel is better than Hermit/nothing. I really really don't see it. How do I assume my opponent is going to do anything but H/MS?

I mean, I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I just don't understand it. Would either you (or Mic Qsenoch) be so kind as to give me some detail on how this works?

I will try to explain it here (even though i'm neither of the two).
First off: I don't say that opening Upgrade/Chapel instead of Hermit/Nothing helps you win the Hermit split if your opponent rushed Hermits from the start on. But i don't think it gets you considerably behind on that. If you get lucky in your shuffle later you can get  up to 3 Hermits on a Single turn later on (3Copper,1Estate, Upgrade in Hand drawing a Hermit) but getting 2Hermits on the Upgrade turn is more likely than with a Hermit instead.(just because you can still play a Hermit afterwards and because of the one additional card that often makes the difference between $2 and $3 at the Hermit rush early on).
That said, both Chapel and Upgrade can serve as "Hermits" in your megaturn(just for the trashing part) 5 Madmen 5Market Squares 1 Chapel and 1 Upgrade can get you a Megaturn getting you up to 10 Golds that turn. And you can get a few Golds* in the mid-game aswell once you started getting  some MS.  So 5 Provinces on your mega-turn should easily be possible this way.

All this is only a comment on the opening buys here and does not take into account the strategy your opponent did choose against you.
And all in all i still think it's a tough call and certainly not a huge advantage over the Hermit opening.

*If you are just following the plain H/M Combo you wont get those Golds in between because you are very limited on the cards you can trash (max 2 of the 3 Estates)

Those situations where Upgrade is better than Hermit, though, I mean they're *really* unlikely, right? And the situations where Hermit is better just by having another one in the deck? I mean, they seem more likely. And then there are the situations where Upgrade is worse when it doesn't collide with an Estate.

I could have worked around this better by having the mentality that any trasher can function as another Hermit, but with my draw at T10 I couldn't have gotten another Madman anyways before the game was over.

I really feel like getting the maximum number of actual Hermits is the most important thing. Is this assumption wrong?
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2014, 01:26:53 am »
0

On AdamH Game 1. I'm baffled by you not opening Upgrade/Chapel
...
I don't think my opening is "terrible" at all, other than the parts I couldn't change.

I just saw your video, unaware of this discussion.
It did physically hurt to see you not open upgrade/chapel.

Look, I understand that you're the best Dominion player in the world, but I still don't see why Upgrade/Chapel is better than Hermit/Chapel, and I don't see why Hermit/Chapel is better than Hermit/nothing. I really really don't see it. How do I assume my opponent is going to do anything but H/MS?

I mean, I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I just don't understand it. Would either you (or Mic Qsenoch) be so kind as to give me some detail on how this works?

I will try to explain it here (even though i'm neither of the two).
First off: I don't say that opening Upgrade/Chapel instead of Hermit/Nothing helps you win the Hermit split if your opponent rushed Hermits from the start on. But i don't think it gets you considerably behind on that. If you get lucky in your shuffle later you can get  up to 3 Hermits on a Single turn later on (3Copper,1Estate, Upgrade in Hand drawing a Hermit) but getting 2Hermits on the Upgrade turn is more likely than with a Hermit instead.(just because you can still play a Hermit afterwards and because of the one additional card that often makes the difference between $2 and $3 at the Hermit rush early on).
That said, both Chapel and Upgrade can serve as "Hermits" in your megaturn(just for the trashing part) 5 Madmen 5Market Squares 1 Chapel and 1 Upgrade can get you a Megaturn getting you up to 10 Golds that turn. And you can get a few Golds* in the mid-game aswell once you started getting  some MS.  So 5 Provinces on your mega-turn should easily be possible this way.

All this is only a comment on the opening buys here and does not take into account the strategy your opponent did choose against you.
And all in all i still think it's a tough call and certainly not a huge advantage over the Hermit opening.

*If you are just following the plain H/M Combo you wont get those Golds in between because you are very limited on the cards you can trash (max 2 of the 3 Estates)

Those situations where Upgrade is better than Hermit, though, I mean they're *really* unlikely, right? And the situations where Hermit is better just by having another one in the deck? I mean, they seem more likely. And then there are the situations where Upgrade is worse when it doesn't collide with an Estate.

I could have worked around this better by having the mentality that any trasher can function as another Hermit, but with my draw at T10 I couldn't have gotten another Madman anyways before the game was over.

I really feel like getting the maximum number of actual Hermits is the most important thing. Is this assumption wrong?

Well as i said i dont think at all that Upgrade helps you win the Hermit Split. Those situations where the Upgrade is not only better than Hermit for that purpose but even make up for having one less Hermit from start on are extremely rare:
like Hermit, Upgrade, Estate and 2 Coppers in hand (1 Copper on top of the deck) in this case you can get even 3 hermits instead of 1 if the Upgrade is a Hermit. As i said super-extremely rare. But but the situation where the Upgrade makes the difference between $2 and $3  for the buy are not rare at all im my experience.I dont think they are rarer than not colliding Upgrade and Estate(which is roughly a chance of 10% after the first shuffle*). Even though they get much more likely after let's say turn 7(assuming both players rush Hermits first) when the Hermits are already gone so i think this is more important for the MS split than for the Hermit split and yes the Hermit split is quite a bit more important than the MS split.
But if you let's say lost the Hermit Split 6/4 and then won the MS split 6/4 having a Chapel and an Upgrad in your deck and maybe having chapelled down a few coppers aswell still puts you in an ok position against the player with the fortunate 4/3 opening. And if you manage to not lose the Hermit split which i think is not THAT bad of a chance for the above reasonst then you even have a good advantage.

*Having 0 Estates in your 5 cards with the upgrade (4in hand+1draw) is a lot less likely than having 2 Estates in in the 4 cards with your Hermit (which is one of the above mentioned cases)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 01:39:04 am by MarkowKette »
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Titandrake

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2014, 04:02:06 am »
0

Titandrake 1 - 3 GeoLib

Entire broadcast at http://www.twitch.tv/titandrake/b/514804927, starting at around 30 minutes in. I'll see what I can do for individual matches later.

Games:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1395956286956.txt

Rebuild game, GeoLib has 5/2 opening, but I don't think that's a big lead here. I open Smugglers/Silver over Militia/Silver which turns out awful, I have no money and waste so many opening buys.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140327/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1395957456723.txt

I try some Mercenary-Treasure Map-Remodel thing, but I misplay by buying Silver over a 3rd Urchin early, and my Urchins don't connect until it's too late. GeoLib does Catacombs-BM, which chat thinks is better. If Urchins collide and Treasure Maps collide reasonably fast, I think Mercenary is better, but you're at the mercy of shuffle luck for that strategy, and Tunnel is a nice counter to it.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1395959010898.txt

GeoLib DCed on a closer game, with Chapel, Ghost Ship, and Border Village as the only village. This game was a blowout, GeoLib's 5/2 is completely awful. In theory this board is really weird, a very strong engine with Ambassador + Goons, but also Possession. In practice, Possession isn't as good against a Goons deck, and I easily win the Ambassador war early because of opening luck.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1395960471595.txt

And this is a blowout against me, on turns 3 and 4 I get $4 twice while GeoLib gets $5 twice. I do a lot of thinking about whether one of those $4s should have been Remodel or not, turning Estates into Tournaments isn't a bad backup plan. I end up not doing so, opting to buy more Tournaments. The problem is that I'm forced to buy lots of Tournaments because I don't want Silver here, and then when GeoLib gets a Province they all turn dead.

I definitely misplayed the first 2 games, and the luck evened out on the last 2, so overall I'm okay with this series. Thanks for the games!

So actual commentary on the games from me:

Game 1: Is 5/2 really an advantage at all? I thought it was a little bit of a disadvantage. Notably both of us nuked our economy pretty badly here. Should my smugglers have been a silver? I figured that smugglers would be good for smuggling duchies, especially since he had also picked one up. Also, was getting all of those estates actually a good idea? I thought that I would be able to rebuild the first couple and then I realized that I wouldn't actually, so I figured what the hell, I'll go for the points since I kept hitting 2. I think it worked out in the end, but was it actually the right call? I didn't get a second rebuild til T15.

Game 2: I think catacombs-tunnel was the right call here. Merc seemed too slow and terminal with no +action. I don't think I played it right though, since my catacombs never hit tunnel. Should I have bought catacombs over gold more often?

Game 3: The one where I got disconnected was actually interesting and close (apparently if you right click in the goko window and click view image it attempts to take you to a png for the entire game and crashes. I fidget with my mouse sometimes when I'm playing. These things to do not combine well. Fun times.) This game was just so painful though. I don't think I was ever even close. Should the second amb have been a silver instead? I don't know. I don't remember the last time I played a game where I felt this helpless from the very beginning.

Game 4: I got super lucky here with the 5/5 on T3/4. From there it was pretty hard for Titandrake to try to catch up. I think I should have just gone for the kill on this one earlier and skipped the duchies, but slogging it out worked out ok anyway. The luck from those last two balance pretty nicely. I'm disappointed that we didn't get to finish the first game 3. It would have been much closer.

Anyway, thanks for the games Titandrake. Thank you also for streaming. It was fun to watch the games from the other side! It would've been nice to be able to see the twitch chat too, but ah well.

Game 1: If the Duchy split was 4-4, I think it would have been the wrong call, but with a 5-3 split it actually forced me to have to buy a Province outright to win. You didn't have to worry about Province->Province not increasing your VP, whereas I have to always guess right to catch up. So in this instance, I think it was right, but I don't think it's right in general.

Game 2: Not sure, you can think of Catacombs as giving 3 discards out of 11 total. (5 card hand, 3 discarded, 3 drawn.) I don't think you need more Catacombs, since you got free enabling from Urchin and Mercenary, and it's probably better to focus on getting $8 given the lack of +Buy. Meaning, buy as many as you would buy without Tunnel involved. If you have a Province lead, I'm forced to pick up more VP cards to win, but can at most Remodel for 1 extra card a turn.

Game 3: I don't think you could have done anything. If second Amb was silver, in a best case scenario you spike an early $6 for Goons, but then you're down an Ambassador and need Fishing Village, and you don't have any draw...maybe it's the right call? Taking a massive risk to hope to get Goons? If you don't hit the $6, you just lose. Yeah, probably hope for Silver, but it looks awful either way.

Game 4: To paraphrase chat, the only way I catch up is by Silk Roads, but you can do it better thanks to Followers. Oh well.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2014, 08:02:13 am »
+1

Adam: There are potentially other ways you can play in some of the games, like game 1, but I am really not sure how to play that kind of game very well, so I would asume you know better than me to start off.

The last game, though, made me cringe. First of all, the way you play, turn 5 you should Taxman a silver quickly, you KNOW it will hit him because he taxmaned INTO silver the previous turn. I don't think Counterfeit really has synergy with taxman, like at all - actually seems to be a bit anti-synergistic to me? But the big thing here is that I'm so sure you want to go something based around Fishing Village-Merchant Ship here, which is not bad at all in terms of money strategies. Aaaaaaaaaaand.... you don't even consider this.

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2014, 09:23:23 am »
+3

Having thought about it a bit I actually think Upgrade/Nothing > Upgrade/Chapel if you're going for Hermit/Market Square (on pretty much any other board or with any other strategy, including the Chapel is clearly superior).

I think the Chapel is bad for the following reasons:

1) You'll spend at least one turn trashing with it where you'd otherwise have been able to buy a Hermit.

2) You're less eager than usual to Chapel away your Estates because to the extend that they don't prevent you from hitting $3 (which isn't a terribly huge constraint) they're somewhat useful as Upgrade fuel.

3) You're not very keen to trash your Coppers either: they're the only treasure in your deck, and without them your Hermit density will spike fairly quickly to the point where multiple turns where you hit less than $3 are not just possible, but even likely, which can easily cost you the game.

4) To remedy this last point, Mic Q suggests to gain an early Gold, but I really don't think you can do this effectively: you first need to get a Market Square over a Hermit at some point (which is an awful idea to start with), then you have to connect your MS with a trasher (and discard it, reducing the value of your current hand, possibly costing you another Hermit) and then you have to draw the Gold in a hand where you'd otherwise have been unable to hit $3, and do this often enough to make up for the lost Hermits. Also note here that once the Hermits are gone, not always hitting $3 isn't a big deal because you actually want to gain the Madmens, so any Golds you might gain "early" are almost certainly too little too late.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2014, 11:35:51 am »
+1

Reasonable points, it's still not clear to me that Upgrade/Nothing leads to a better Hermit split for you in most cases. Would have to play some sample games and see, but it could be true.

Quote
4) To remedy this last point, Mic Q suggests to gain an early Gold, but I really don't think you can do this effectively: you first need to get a Market Square over a Hermit at some point (which is an awful idea to start with), then you have to connect your MS with a trasher (and discard it, reducing the value of your current hand, possibly costing you another Hermit) and then you have to draw the Gold in a hand where you'd otherwise have been unable to hit $3, and do this often enough to make up for the lost Hermits. Also note here that once the Hermits are gone, not always hitting $3 isn't a big deal because you actually want to gain the Madmens, so any Golds you might gain "early" are almost certainly too little too late.

I should clarify that I don't advise to gain Market Squares before Hermits, but the Hermits could be gone by Turns 5-6, at which point the Chapel'd player should be in a better position to gain some Golds, which I think will still be useful for winning the Market Square split, which will be important to the mirror.

Which is the main issue to me: both players ought to be contesting Hermits/Market Squares, which means you get a half-baked combo. The half-baked combo does not mega-turn! At least not in a way that gives them an insurmountable point lead. Your best case scenario after you fire off is that you 3 pile on Estates. But this is hard to do without favorable splits on both piles (you will need a lot of Madmen and Market Squares to manage it). I don't see it happening very often in a mirror (could be wrong here).

Going into the middle/end of the game once the pieces have been divided up, my gut tells me I would rather have the thinner deck. I think you end up fighting for Provinces in a large number of these games, after using some Madman turns to crank out a bunch of high quality treasure and buying 2-3 Provinces. It seems to me that the Chapel'd player has a little bit of an edge going into this kind of endgame.

Anyway, the thing to do would be to try it all a few times and see how the splits fall out.
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-Stef-

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2014, 12:19:15 pm »
+6

I just played my match against Marin. It was a strange match, not really living up to the expectations.
Somewhere in between all the resigning, frustration moves and misclicks there were some good games but you'll have to look closely to find them.


Game 1: Provinces / Estates - Altar, Copper, Cultist, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Graverobber, Island, Outpost, Province, Ruins, Scavenger, Silver, Smithy, Vault, Worker's Village, Lookout
Cultist is clearly going to be important but it won't be just Cultist-BM. Cleaning up is too strong with the combination of Altar and the best $3 trasher in the game. The payload of some combination of Outpost, Island & Graverobber is huge.
I decide to open Scavenger/Silver because of this (rather the the usual silver/silver on a cultist board). Marin took it one step further and opened lookout/Scavenger.
On turn 3 I had $7 and was a bit in doubt between Altar and Cultist. In the end I took Altar and it payed off bigtime.

Game 2: Provinces / Estates - Armory, Bureaucrat, Copper, Curse, Develop, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Haggler, Marauder, Merchant Ship, Monument, Province, Ruins, Sea Hag, Silver, Trading Post, Cellar
A bit of a boring set without any villages. He gets to open Trade Route/Cellar and that frustrates me. I shouldn't let it happen but it does. On turn 4 I buy a Trading Post of my own, but that's just a bad card by now. It should have been a gold and it's the play I'm least proud of. I should lose this and I do.

Game 3: Colonies / Estates - Bazaar, Chancellor, Colony, Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Mint, Pearl Diver, Platinum, Potion, Province, Sea Hag, Silver, Tactician, Treasure Map, University, Village, Duchess
Again no real trashing and a Sea Hag, but this is a lot more interesting. Tactician, Mint and University may see play still, because it's a Colony game.
We both decide to skip University. He gets a second Sea Hag and I decide not to. I'm fine with losing the curse split 6-4 because of this. I add a second Tactician where he doesn't.
I'm not really playing double-tact, just single-tact-with-two-tacticians. I like it because first I want to hit $9 and then I want to combine Mint with Platinum a lot, but I can't say I'm sure of it. It does work though.

Game 4: Provinces / Estates - Bandit Camp, Baron, Butcher, Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Knights, Pirate Ship, Province, Rabble, Scavenger, Silver, Tactician, Treasure Map, Storeroom
double tact, knights, no real trashing and Dame Anna on top. Whoever hits $5 first is likely to win here. Because of that I want to open Scavenger/Silver against his Baron/Silver. Unfortunately he gets it, and goes on to have really nice draws. Anna clears out both his deck and mine, except on my side it's not the coppers that go.
His turns take longer and longer while I just click&go. When I'm about ready to resign I realize what happened here... he went first for the 3rd time in a row now. Ugh!
He offers to replay but since he's already as good as won this game that feels a bit unfair. We agree that he can have this one and I'll go first on the remaining two games.

Game 5: Provinces / Shelters - Armory, Band of Misfits, Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Feast, Gardens, Gold, Golem, JackOfAllTrades, Plaza, Potion, Province, Silver, Treasure Map, Venture, Fool's Gold
Here something really strange happened. I clearly consider this an engine board, but somehow Marin wanted to play a slog. First time for everything. On turn 5 he even gets a Gardens, intending to win the split. However, when I take the Golem on turn 6 he switches plan dramatically. It works out reasonably well but he is off course behind after that. Then he makes a misclick with Jack and resigns in frustration. It wouldn't matter though because at that point I had around 12 coin tokens and just wasn't going to miss province anymore, and was likely to hit more feasts then he would.
It's a tricky engine to play - much trickier then I realized at first. Really hard to control reshuffles with Golem and if you go wrong you could be dead in the waters for 3 turns long.

Game 6: Provinces / Estates - Black Market, Copper, Courtyard, Curse, Cutpurse, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Hamlet, Ill-Gotten Gains, Junk Dealer, Plaza, Potion, Province, Remake, Silver, University, Cellar
Black Market! :) It's my favorite card and I think his as well. Maybe I should have suggested playing all 6 games with it. Because of the lack of draw we both decide to skip university, opening remake/courtyard. After that I get extremely good t3/4, where he doesn't. This puts me a mile ahead. After that we're both digging for gems with our double-black-market deck. His main village is Hamlet and unexperienced with goko that just screams for misclicks. His first is on turn 11, discarding Courtyard for a +buy. Then I join the party on my turn 12, which implies I miss the $7 for KC (I knew it was coming). On his turn 12 he again gets a +buy out of his courtyard. This, and my lead, is enough to call it a day.


One good thing though... I told Marin about the extension, he installed it somewhere between game 2 & 3, and now we might see him more often on Goko.
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2014, 12:25:37 pm »
+1

Having thought about it a bit I actually think Upgrade/Nothing > Upgrade/Chapel if you're going for Hermit/Market Square (on pretty much any other board or with any other strategy, including the Chapel is clearly superior).

I think the Chapel is bad for the following reasons:

1) You'll spend at least one turn trashing with it where you'd otherwise have been able to buy a Hermit.

2) You're less eager than usual to Chapel away your Estates because to the extend that they don't prevent you from hitting $3 (which isn't a terribly huge constraint) they're somewhat useful as Upgrade fuel.

3) You're not very keen to trash your Coppers either: they're the only treasure in your deck, and without them your Hermit density will spike fairly quickly to the point where multiple turns where you hit less than $3 are not just possible, but even likely, which can easily cost you the game.

4) To remedy this last point, Mic Q suggests to gain an early Gold, but I really don't think you can do this effectively: you first need to get a Market Square over a Hermit at some point (which is an awful idea to start with), then you have to connect your MS with a trasher (and discard it, reducing the value of your current hand, possibly costing you another Hermit) and then you have to draw the Gold in a hand where you'd otherwise have been unable to hit $3, and do this often enough to make up for the lost Hermits. Also note here that once the Hermits are gone, not always hitting $3 isn't a big deal because you actually want to gain the Madmens, so any Golds you might gain "early" are almost certainly too little too late.

I agree with you on most of this. But:

1. if worst comes to worst you can upgrade chapel into a Hermit

2. as stated earlier you have one more trasher in your deck für your megaturn
(and yes you will hit a $2 hand later aswell, but at that time you rather want to buy nothing to turn a Hermit into a Madman)

3. i would not forego on buying a Hermit to instead trash down with chapel

4. the one extra "dead card" hurts less early than it benefits later on when hermits are gone and MS are going low. (but thats just what i think and might totally be wrong)
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liopoil

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2014, 04:45:05 pm »
0

liopoil  2 - 1 tenuki
Game 1:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140328/log.516d4618e4b082c74d7b73c9.1396041215899.txt
Tenuki wins, 0-1
Game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140328/log.516d4618e4b082c74d7b73c9.1396042409667.txt
liopoil wins, 1-1
Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140328/log.516d4618e4b082c74d7b73c9.1396044154952.txt
liopoil wins, 2-1

After the third game tenuki had to leave. We had planned to resume today, but he wasn't able to make it, so he resigned the match.
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GeoLib

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2014, 05:24:39 pm »
0

Sorry forgot to post the log. Hope its not to late.

Posting the logs isn't required. You're all good. (Also you have a little over 24 hours before the deadline).
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amalloy

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2014, 06:52:17 pm »
0

amalloy 3-1 hsiale

You can watch the full stream on Twitch, and there's a link to the video of each game next to its log link.


Game 1 Log Video



Code: [Select]
Courtyard, Lighthouse, Pawn, Scheme, Farming Village, Spice Merchant, Spy, Haggler, Mandarin, Upgrade
We both go for a Haggler/Scheme/village kind of thing, with Upgrade to improve the stuff you get from Haggler but don't really want. His 5/2 lets him open Haggler, which seems strong and lets him get Upgrades before me. But he's using his Upgrade on Coppers, so they're just worse than my Spice Merchant anyway, and it's a pretty close game even though it seems like he has better cards than I do. I start greening before he does; he's still in it, but starts draining piles while he's behind, and I can just buy Province and empty out the last pile.

amalloy 1-0 hsiale


Game 2 Log Video



Code: [Select]
Scrying Pool, Chancellor, Feodum, Treasure Map, Counting House, Graverobber, Stash, Tactician, Harem, Forge
I spend a lot of time musing about some really bad plans for this board, and nearly miss Chancellor/Stash - I've never played it before, but I do know it exists. He spots it too, and has a 5/2 again so opens Stash. I think that puts me behind already, and indeed he makes it to Province sooner and more often than I do. Just unlucky, I think, but if I did anything wrong (like buying the wrong number of Chancellors) I'd love to hear about it.

amalloy 1-1 hsiale


Game 3 Log Video



Code: [Select]
Fool's Gold, Develop, Warehouse, Mining Village, Pirate Ship, Golem, Catacombs, Mandarin, Stash, Border Village
No buys, weak trashing, and Fool's Gold looks dominant. We both spend our first five buys on FG, and then it's a race for Provinces: the only interesting thing is whether Catacombs or Warehouse is the best way to hit $8 more often. I think Warehouse is probably better, but at the time I started with Catacombs. Maybe even Pirate Ship to trash opponent's FG? I think that's way too slow, but could be wrong. Eventually I win, but I think it's mostly shuffle luck, just like losing game 2 was.

amalloy 2-1 hsiale


Game 4 Log Video



Code: [Select]
Beggar, Caravan, Death Cart, Ironmonger, Monument, Remake, Silk Road, Butcher, Junk Dealer, Stables
I decide that Remake and Butcher can get me lots of 4s, and in a deck with only actions Ironmonger will let me play lots of Monuments and Butchers every turn. My opponent plays Stables/money, with a Monument and a Junk Dealer. I play my deck quite badly, getting a second Junk Dealer over a Butcher, and find that my opponent is slurping down the Provinces before my deck is close to doing what I planned. I have to compete the Provinces, and that slows me down even more. At the end, I get a very lucky draw: Silver, 2 Monuments, a Butcher, a Province, and enough Ironmongers to play it all. That lets me go from down 7 to up 1, and pile out the last two Provinces to end the game. I don't think my play deserved the win here, but I'll take what I can get.

amalloy 3-1 hsiale.


Thanks for the match, hsiale, and good luck in the rest of the tournament!
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 07:09:04 pm by amalloy »
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thetig333

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2014, 10:47:14 pm »
0

...

Please link your game logs using gokosalvager.com as the domain instead.  My name forwards to gokosalvager.com right now, but it won't do so for much longer.

Sorry, will do.
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amalloy

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #72 on: March 31, 2014, 01:35:53 am »
0

...

Please link your game logs using gokosalvager.com as the domain instead.  My name forwards to gokosalvager.com right now, but it won't do so for much longer.

Could you set up drunkensailor to redirect with a 301 to gokosalvager? As you're just serving the same content now, it's not obvious that the old domain is going away, unless someone wanders into a relevant forum thread. With a 301, users' browsers will get a chance to suggest you update your bookmark, or whatever.
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2014, 07:50:36 am »
0

A couple of things that have enlightened me about this H/MS game discussion.

1. I want to try some different enablers for H/MS, specifically Copper-trashers. You can get more "Hermits" in your deck by using these instead, allowing you to have more Madmen. I had never considered this before and can be very useful in a mirror when components are limited.

2. I'm still not convinced that Upgrade is the right move over Hermit in the opening, but I might come around on Chapel being better than nothing. I don't know when I would do it, but I'm open to trying some things out.
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