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Kirian

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GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« on: March 24, 2014, 10:02:41 am »
+2

Please post your games here.  Discuss.  Analyze!  And so forth.

GAME TO WATCH:  Stef vs. Marin.
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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2014, 06:58:29 pm »
+5

Egork and I got our match finished right away, so here are the games.

Gamw 1: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140324/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1395695304148.txt



Code: [Select]
Beggar, Moat, Loan, Horse Traders, Procession, Quarry, Mandarin, Pillage, Tribute, Grand Market
We both have the same idea here: Use Loan for trashing and Get GMs. We both pair our Loans with Horse Traders. There's an argument for Quarry, I'm sure, but I really hate pairing Loan with another Treasure. We both decide to pick up the Quarry later. Things go terribly for me and great for him. His Loan just really efficiently gets rid of his Coppers, whereas mine misses the Turn 5 shuffle and never quite recovers. Losing the GM split is pretty huge here, and my foray into Procession never really has a prayer.

Game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140324/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1395695674339.txt



Code: [Select]
Develop, Forager, Loan, Trade Route, Trader, Count, Mint, Soothsayer, Tactician, Upgrade
Just sort of the opposite of the first game, I get significantly better luck executing essentially the same strategy. Not much to say about this one. Its probably possible to play it differently than I did, but Foragers and Soothsayer with a single Tactician was good enough.

Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140324/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1395697145423.txt



Code: [Select]
Chapel, Haven, Vagrant, Forager, Lookout, Salvager, Golem, Tribute, Border Village, Nobles
Tense, tense game. I'm not so sure about my strategy here. Initially I am thinking to really use the Vagrant-Nobles interaction and probably get Golem. But when I draw $3P with Salvager I decide I dont need the Golem after all, and jettison it for other stuff. I feel like I have a big leg up on my opponent, but he smartly pursues Tribute, which is a card I just never pay any attention to at all. It's really strong against me, though, and he has much more stable draw. His money is a little uneven though, and we get into this kind of standoff where we could both Double Province if we drew dream hands, so we are both reluctant to buy the penultimate penultimate Province, for fear of a double after that. Salvager and Border Village are creating a lot of analysis paralysis, too. Eventually I Salvage a Gold so that I can buy Border Village, pick up Duchy, and buy another Salvager. In the end, I can Salvage a Province, Salvage a Duchy, buy two Provinces and an Estate to win by a point (after thinking about it for 10 minutes).

Game 4: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140324/log.514cd37de4b0fe3236619906.1395698270140.txt



Code: [Select]
Beggar, Death Cart, Gardens, Pirate Ship, Counterfeit, Market, Mystic, Tactician, Adventurer, Border Village
This was my favorite game. We pursued wildly different strategies here. He wants to do a big, big time Pirate Ship Double Tactician deck. I don't believe in Pirate Ship, ever, and I know Beggar/Gardens is extremely strong, so I go for that. In a sense, my strategy helps Egork execute his strategy, because he can really reliably hit Coppers to up his ships (and does indeed get them to $7 pretty quickly). But with so many Beggars, it's not really going to hurt my deck size, and it actually helps me resolve Beggar collision, because I can discard one, gain two Silvers, lose one to his Ship, and then play my other Beggar on my turn. Since I know he isn't interested in Gardens, I build more than I would in the mirror, taking a couple Markets that really help me get Gardens + Beggar on subsequent turns.

My post-Gardens moves are pretty cool. I can play Beggar, buy Border Village, gain Deathcart, gain 2 Ruins... for a net gain of 7 cards per turn!

He is really going off at this point though. With a big hand and ample villages, he can play lots of Ships for lots of money and pile drive the Provinces fairly effectively.

Once the Ruins are out my best chance is to drain Beggars, so on an off hand I buy a single Border Village-Beggar to set myself up for the win next turn. He needs a lot of points to catch me, though it is possible if he has a really good draw off his Tactician. What I should have known was that I had Markets coming up, and would likely have been able to double Beggar anyway, making Border Village-Duchy a much better play. In any case, he doesn't get it and I win. Very exciting game. I do feel like it was close, and though I have a lot of faith in my strategy and zero in Pirate Ship, it's conceivable to me that I could be wrong here.

Thanks for the games!
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WanderingWinder

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2014, 07:28:35 pm »
+3

Egork and I got our match finished right away, so here are the games.
...
Game 1: Horse Traders vs Quarry off the top is an interesting call. I'm pretty sure it's Horse Traders, but the thing that stops me from being sure is... Mandarin. Quarry+loan+copper into Mandarin is tasty, and Mandarin sticking back coppers for loan to nail is pretty nice, too. I still lean toward HT, but it's not entirely clear. Certainly you get Quarry after the first HT. Anyway, I was thinking, your strategy seems pretty slow/weak, but when I look for things against it... the best BM is probably Pillage-based (with timely Mandarins and GMs if you somehow hit 6-7 without copper), and that is dreadful against HT. So yeah, not a lot to say.

Game 2: Gosh, I really hate Soothsayer. But again, is there a lot else to do? I think here I go for a tactician into mint, forager to clean up, and try to skip Soothsayer. Quite possibly this is wrong, but particularly with fairly good trashing (upgrade, forager), I don't like giving them free cards, especially 'cause the curses don't hurt too badly.

Game 3: I was pretty enthusiastic about BM, with tribute really countering Nobles that the engine wants. Then I saw chapel, and it's really a no-go (though probably forager is enough anyway). Don't see much need for Golem, particularly with the forced trash cards and the engine is there without it, and again, not a lot to say. Though I think the word you're looking for is "antepenultimate" :)

Game 4: Yeah, so this one is interesting. Your opponent makes some mistakes. Mainly he gets too many pirate ships too soon. He needs to get a draw engine set up better first (mostly this means clearing more copper, quite possibly a second counterfeit), then getting a market or two, because he's going to want +buy more. *Then* get pirate ships and play them out the wazoo. He has lots of time. And you reacting Beggar actually gives him a sure hit, interestingly enough. Not that that is a huge deal. Uh, yeah, I don't know if that is going to beat you, but I feel like it has a decent shot. Looks like a fun one to play.

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2014, 09:24:27 pm »
0

Game 1 is one of the few kingdoms I'd consider opening loan/loan.
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2014, 10:50:40 am »
+1

Stef or Marin: are you going to stream the match? please, please, please, say yes (I've been praying not to be paired with either the last couple of days - I did not look my actual pairing yet, so please, do not take this as an offense).

Also in the 7 group, lespeutere vs AI is not a bad match to watch either.
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PitrPicko

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2014, 11:10:31 am »
+1

Pitr"I don't know how to play wharf"Picko vs. Breezy D "the rats lover"

http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140325/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1395738340739.txt
Code: [Select]
Embargo, Bridge, Procession, Wandering Minstrel, Baker, Count, Haggler, Market, Rogue, Wharf



I went here for some medicore trashing and flexibility via count, but Breezy's way with heavy drawing was better. WM really helps here since it is filtering those coppers and estates for Breezy. I try to get few bridges early and hope for some miracle turn, but that don't happen and Breezy easily threepile and goes for win
0-1

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140325/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1395738931022.txt
Code: [Select]
Fortune Teller, Great Hall, Oasis, Gardens, Militia, Salvager, Counting House, Festival, Highway, Wharf



I'm opening Militia/Osasis thinking about better cards flow than Militia/Silver, but Breezy opens wharf/- and then just going for festival/wharf. I probably didn't bought enough wharfs, or I really don't know what was happening, and maybe just got bit unlucky connecting my pieces. However Breezy buys some highways and then finishes me off.
0-2

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140325/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1395740074753.txt
Code: [Select]
Squire, Stonemason, Masquerade, Urchin, Worker's Village, Harvest, Inn, Jester, Mystic, Witch



Breezy tries some Squire shenanigans where I stay with more traditional village+draw(Masq/Witch). However urchin was a nice touch from his side. I manage to get some witch advantage and even though Masq can reduce curse effect it is still no good. Noticable is passing stonemason as worse than copper card. Also I managed to sneak in a gold which made huge effect and tried harvest as nice source of money. The most important turn was T11 where I overpay stonemason and get witch and inn to topdeck WV(x3),Witch(x4), Breezy reduces effect with urchin and masquarade but still gets 4 curses which is just too much to bare. Breezy tries get some duchies, however no results came from this and I just walked for victory
1-2

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140325/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1395740453065.txt
Code: [Select]
Fool's Gold, Squire, Warehouse, Workshop, Rats, Silk Road, Taxman, Cartographer, Mystic, Goons



This board screems on me SILKROADS! with buys and gains it should be the right way, and buys for FG, that would be a nice addition :). Breeze tries Rats (with no trashing on board) synergy with Squire, to get Goons ASAP. But before he manages to connect them I have already 7 FGs in my deck and I'm able to buy goons myself, then buy double silkroads and then just buying/gaining them (winning split 7-1) and after that some duchies/estates and Breezy is just too flooded with rats to hope for some comeback.
2-2

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140325/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1395741308203.txt
Code: [Select]
Duchess, Squire, Storeroom, Alchemist, Fortress, Rats, Bazaar, Catacombs, Cultist, Torturer


Again rats/squire for Breezy where I go for Fortress/Torturer. I'm interested what would f.ds do here, if cultist chain would be better either for me or for Breezy after trashing squire with rats... Anyway game want, Breezy made a mistake T19 which could cost him a victory (but we are just humans,right?), and I finally threepile this in T23 with a few points lead.
3-2

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140325/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1395741900863.txt
Code: [Select]
Crossroads, Pirate Ship, Tournament, Catacombs, Embassy, Explorer, Inn, Saboteur, Treasury, Upgrade



Tournament game but instead for early provinces we go for some deckthining with upgrade. I had better economy but Breezy peaked for first province. Luckily for me he wasn't able to connect it with tournament until we had 3-3 provinces where my economy come handy. T14 Breezy triple tournament for (Followers, Trusty Steed and BoG) leaving princess for me which, as last turn (T17) showed was lethal. Princess allowed me to buy province, upgrade tournament into duchy and get free estate and win by one point (but draw would be sufficient for me)
4-2

Thanks for games, it was lovely, I've learned that I don't know how to play Wharf and also that rats may be resonable even without trashing (I just don't know if it is good enough). And good luck in next rounds ;)
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PitrPicko

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2014, 11:29:12 am »
0

Game 1 is one of the few kingdoms I'd consider opening loan/loan.

I think main drawback of loan/loan is that there could be danger of not hitting $4 reasonably soon. But loan/HT/loan is good for me if you hit $3 after reshuffle.

Have you, Robz or or Egork thought about procession? If it connects with HT it ensures GM, and then you can get Mandarin or Pillage or even Tribute and if it connects with procession once again it grants double GM, gain one+attack+2spoils, gives 1-2 GMs. Surely it depends on shuffle luck...
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2014, 11:32:54 am »
0

Game 1 is one of the few kingdoms I'd consider opening loan/loan.

I think main drawback of loan/loan is that there could be danger of not hitting $4 reasonably soon. But loan/HT/loan is good for me if you hit $3 after reshuffle.

You will definitely hit $4 (or more) in T3 or T4. You have 9 cards worth $1, two of which could get trashed. You have 3 Estates, but you will still draw at least 7 of the worth $1 cards in T3/T4.

In any case, HT is not THAT important for me, trashing Copper is more important, and the faster you do it, the faster you can add Quarry and chain all your GMs.

Have you, Robz or or Egork thought about procession? If it connects with HT it ensures GM, and then you can get Mandarin or Pillage or even Tribute and if it connects with procession once again it grants double GM, gain one+attack+2spoils, gives 1-2 GMs. Surely it depends on shuffle luck...

I agree, Procession does seem nice, but it is hard to time when to add it to your deck.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 11:34:03 am by soulnet »
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2014, 08:03:30 pm »
+3

My games against SheCantSayNo:

game 1:
http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140325/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1395785778131.txt



Code: [Select]
Chapel, Duchess, Embargo, Oracle, Marauder, Remake, Baker, Junk Dealer, Grand Market, Nobles
The Plan is clear: Chapel down to a slim deck and then get GM's for your engine. Baker is on the Board.
I have the fortunate 5/2 start and decide to gamble a bit to get to GM earlier to make up for his first player advantage.
So i open Gold/Chapel. He opens Junk Dealer Chapel. I would have liked to find out which of those is the better opening here,
but the game is already determined when my Chapel misses the reshuffle. It snowballs from here on. SCSN wins.


game 2:
http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140325/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1395786728312.txt



Code: [Select]
Ambassador, Sage, Village, Philosopher's Stone, Bishop, Bridge, Nomad Camp, Wandering Minstrel, Stables, Wharf
I go first here. Again the way to go is very clear: Try to win the Ambassador war and then transition into an Bridge engine with stables and Wharf as draw and Minstrels and Villages. Short strory, i win the Ambassador war and even though he gets 3 Wharfs before i get one the game is already decided. I build the engine and win on 3 piles.

game 3:
http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140325/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1395787317571.txt



Code: [Select]
Forager, Menagerie, Ironmonger, Salvager, Bandit Camp, Mountebank, Stables, Torturer, Adventurer, Forge
I am first again. Mountebank dominates this board. Even though there is good trashing in Forager Mountebanks junking is just too fast. We both open 5/2 Mountebank/- . I hit 5 again on turn 4. and get a second Mountebank while SCSN doesnt hit 5 and goes 2 Foragers from here. From now on my lead grows steadily and i hit 5 much more then he does and get 3 stables. I never drop my lead and win the Curse-split convincingly. I start to build a stable engine with Stables Ironmongers and menagery  and get 2 Provinces beside that. He resigns on turn 16.

game 4:
http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140325/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1395788688879.txt



Code: [Select]
Ambassador, Oasis, Trade Route, Marauder, Wandering Minstrel, Haggler, Horn of Plenty, Stables, Vault, Possession
Again, this game is determined by the Ambassador war. SCSN is first player and we both open Ambassador/Wandering Minstrel.
We are quite even for a long time, but SCSN gets a small lead afterwards. I am already a few cards behind when i do a big mistake and trigger an unwanted reshuffle that takes me another turn behind in the war. From there it snowballs and he pins me down adding a Marauder when his deck is thin enough that really hurts my minstrel cycling and i can never catch up again.
I think i had already lost before i did my big mistake, but that mistake certainly sealed the deal. SCSN wins.

game 5:
http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140325/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1395789367988.txt



Code: [Select]
Vineyard, Duchess, Armory, Island, Noble Brigand, Harvest, Mine, Fairgrounds, Forge, Peddler
This now is the most interesting game of this series. To me the board screams Vinyards. I open Armory/Silver, he opens Island/Silver. He starts to go for a Big Money-Fairgrounds/Province mixed strategy, then realizes what i'm doing and starts to contest the Vinyards getting one Armory when i already started on the Vinyards and later Potion(s). His deck goes surprisingly well he gets 3 Provinces 3 (6-point) Fairgrounds and 2 Vinyards. If i were only able to win the Vinyard split 5/3 i would have lost this game for sure, so i think his Province on $8P was a mistake. It gets really  close when Islands and Vinyards are out and Duchesses get low. I realize too late that we are playing with point counter (we did that only in the games SCSN was 1st player)
and so i didn't track the number of action cards in my deck. On my last turn only one Duchess is left and i have the feeling it's very close pointswise. The point counter tells me i'm 5 points behind. I try to count manually how many action cards i have and am about 50% sure the duchess kicks me over the needed mark. But as he only needs to buy one duchess to end the game himself i have no choice but to take the last duchess. I win by 1 point. He would probably have won if he didn't take the second-to-last duchess the turn before.

game 6:
http://dominionlogs.goko.com/20140325/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1395789861169.txt



Code: [Select]
Poor House, Pearl Diver, Tunnel, Urchin, Baron, Conspirator, Feodum, Cultist, Harvest, Vault
The last game and the second interesting board of this series. I can see 3 strong strategies: Double urchin into Conspirator chain,
Mass-Cultist-BM and Vault-Tunnel. As the urchin plan can deal with the ruins pretty well and hurts the Vault strategy quite a bit through reduced handsizes (even though it can activate his tunnels) i decide to go for that and open double urchin. He opens double Silver and goes into Cultists. I get lucky and can connect the urchins on the first shuffle. I get more urchins and then Conspirators, and he takes a tunnel as defence. He gets hit by a few Mercenary attacks my deck comes together pretty fast. He resigns. Sure, my early connection was very fortunate, but i think my strategy will still beat the Cultist strategy pretty handily. I would be interested how the conspirator chain would have matched up against Vault tunnel, as without sifting i would have stalled on greening relatively fast, and as V/T can activale its tunnels it can also get Provinces with 3 and 4 card start hands, stalling less on green later on.

Thank you for the games, SCSN. Even though especially the first 4 were not really exiting.
Good luck in the following rounds.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 08:57:06 pm by MarkowKette »
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mail-mi

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2014, 11:13:43 pm »
+2

I start to build a stable engine with Stables Ironmongers and menagery  and get 2 Provinces beside that.
heh...stable engine...with Stables...heh
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2014, 11:13:54 pm »
0

mail-mi vs. LCS213

game 1: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140325/log.516d1bece4b082c74d7ae7e9.1395799652832.txt



Code: [Select]
Vineyard, Cellar, Crossroads, Lighthouse, Menagerie, Shanty Town, Salvager, Knights, Mountebank, Hunting Grounds
I thought about Vineyards, with a lot of $2 non-terminals, but the only buy was Salvager, so I decided not to go for it. We both get Mountebanks, but not many curses are handed out because Lighthouse. He take the lead early, and it gets very close in the end, but on my last turn, I'm able to Salvage a Hunting Grounds, grab a duchy, then buy the last province and an estate for the win.

mail-mi 1, LCS213 0

game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140325/log.50e20cf4e4b0a47150882831.1395800449098.txt



Code: [Select]
Duchess, Oasis, Steward, Death Cart, Feodum, Ironworks, Young Witch, Hunting Party, Soothsayer, Stables, Peddler
I open steward/ironworks, and he opens steward/death cart. I really think DC is the wrong choice here. I grab a Young Witch, he grabs a Soothsayer, but he only gets to play his once. I build a pretty stable Hunting Party/Stables/Oasis engine, and he grabs an ironworks and hits the feodums as a last-ditch effort. Well, near the end, I see that when he gains a feodum, his score didn't go up--he only had 2 silvers! On his last turn he buys one, boosting himself up 5 points, but ultimately I crush him.

mail-mi 2, LCS213 0

game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140325/log.516d1bece4b082c74d7ae7e9.1395801635803.txt



Code: [Select]
Hamlet, Masterpiece, Wandering Minstrel, Apprentice, City, Counting House, Cultist, Inn, Tactician, Hunting Grounds
This board screams engine. We both first go for cultist, and we split the Ruins pretty evenly. I realize that City will be +2 cards because the ruins will be gone fast, but he gets Hunting Grounds and the first Apprentice, and after getting the first 2 provinces, I can't beat his lead. He beats me pretty soundly.

mail-mi 2, LCS213 1

game 4: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140325/log.50e20cf4e4b0a47150882831.1395802620567.txt



Code: [Select]
Pearl Diver, Oracle, Sage, JackOfAllTrades, Treasure Map, Bazaar, Cartographer, Graverobber, Merchant Ship, Mint
He opens mint--and the game is lost to him right there. I build a nice little BM-engine hybrid with Jack, Bazaar, Cartographer, and I also grab a couple of mints for copper trashing. He manages to get connected TMs, but by then I have a couple graverobbers and I'm graverobbering my mints into provinces and getting them back, buying provinces every other turn, and I win handily

mail-mi 3, LCS213 1

mail-mi wins!

(P.S. how do I do the whole card-image thing?--thanks AdamH!)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 11:36:12 pm by mail-mi »
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2014, 12:12:40 am »
+1

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2014, 04:43:04 am »
+2

matste vs noobify:
Game 1:


Code: [Select]
Masterpiece, Shanty Town, Philosopher's Stone, JackOfAllTrades, Counting House, Horn of Plenty, Saboteur, Treasury, Harem, Nobleshttp://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140325/log.517265f6e4b054fd071e3c90.1395813773167.txt
We both go for a Double Jack game plus Masterpieces to gain even more Silvers. While my first Jack misses the shuffle, noobify manages to pull out a mini trick of Schanty Town + Jack. That makes me feel pretty unlucky and I am preparing myself for a loss. Luckily, in the endgame he gets two horrible sevens and I win. If at the turn 8 he had bought a Harem instead of his third Masterpiece, at least one of those sevens would have been avoided. But ultimately, luck was the deciding factor in this game.

Game 2:


Code: [Select]
Market Square, Masquerade, Tunnel, Feast, Talisman, Duke, Haggler, Horn of Plenty, Market, Altarhttp://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140325/log.517265f6e4b054fd071e3c90.1395814308908.txt

My plan is to get a minimum economy with Masquerade+Market Square and then to go heavily into Duchy/Duke. There's Altar and Feast to support this strategy. His plan seems to be massive Gold gaining with multiple Market Squares. During the game he buys 8 Market Squares, but he reveals them 6 times only. I don't like this strategy at all, because there's nothing special he could have done with his Golds, even if he had been more lucky with the reactions. When I win the Duchy split 5/3, the game is basically over.

Game 3:


Code: [Select]
Oasis, Oracle, Sage, Scheme, Feodum, Pirate Ship, Young Witch, Duke, Explorer, Journeyman, Merchant ShipOasis is the Bane.
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140325/log.517265f6e4b054fd071e3c90.1395815276983.txt

Another Duke game. This time Young Witch makes it is a slog, so it's more obvious that Duchy/Duke is the way to go. Scheme is a very important card here for tactical tricks. We both open YW/Bane. On 5$ I buy an Explorer, he chooses a Merchant Ship. My reasoning is that the extra Silvers will be usefull if in the engame I am forced to buy Feoda. Also, I'm planning to spend most of my 3$ on Oases, so there will be no time to pump my economy up in other way.  During the game I buy more Oases and use Scheme to put the banes back. My defence is so strong, that when he Schemes his Young Witch, it doesn't hurt me at all. I am confident about my win in the curse war and start picking up Duchies.  At turn 15 my opponent buys a Province instead of a Duchy, which is a big mistake. I win the Duchy split 5/3 and Curses 5/2.

Thanks for the games. This is my first real win in this tournament.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 05:19:18 am by matste »
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RTT

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2014, 10:19:57 am »
+2

Here are the Videos of my match with HarryPeteur.

game1


game2


game3


game4



Thanks for the games and good luck in the nxt match Harry
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2014, 02:33:47 pm »
+1

markusin 4-2 Watno

Finally got the videos up.

Game 1:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140326/log.5080bad60cf2ab2c11d065ce.1395849501171.txt



This would have been a really nice board for Vineyard, except Tactician was the only source of +buy, and it's a tricky decision as to whether you want to play Tactician and discard Potion or just buy Vineyard. We both went for the same strategy: Double Tactician with Steward for coin. There were plenty of Villages to make this possible. However, one must forgo buying a Vineyard in order to play a Tactician while buying a Province. I Bought Province/Vineyard with my tac turns at every opportunity.

Sadly, Watno disconnected. He was kind enough to grant me the win, though looking at the log now it seemed pretty even except for the fact that I had first player advantage.


markusin 1-0 Watno

Game 2:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140326/log.5080bad60cf2ab2c11d065ce.1395851621697.txt



Yeah Cultist was on the board. Sucks right? Well not quite, as this game had Fairgrounds. I won the ruins split 7-3, but my opponent ended up with all 5 types of ruins in his deck. That plus his emphasis on Silvers that I didn't share made this one pretty close. By the end, Watno had 8VP Fairgrounds. It didn't matter much though, as he still would have won with 6VP Fairgrounds.

markusin 1-1 Watno

Game 3:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140326/log.5080bad60cf2ab2c11d065ce.1395852266097.txt



Forge, Fortress, Conspirator, and Watchtower to boot? That's already pretty great, and my opponent went straight for that, eventually trashing Fortresses into Provinces with Forge. I had the same idea, but hitting 5/2 on both shuffles complicated things. I opened Smithy, hoping I would be able to at least buy Forge as fast as I can and having a card that can increase my handsize for Forge can trash more cards.

markusin 1-2 Watno

Game 4:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140326/log.5080bad60cf2ab2c11d065ce.1395852939388.txt



Not much stands out here besides IGG and Mountebank, but Trader, the bane of both, was present. Masterpiece, the other slog defender, was present too. I was kinda happy that Feodum wasn't around as well.

We both opened Trader/Silver, but I got lucky Trader/Estate Collisions while my opponent's Trader landed on turn 5. My opponent gets a lot more Traders that I did to compensate. I was hoping to rely on Masterpiece for extra Silver if I needed it. At the same time, I got a Salvager, hoping to rush the game end if I got ahead. My lack of Traders allowed my opponent to Gain IGGs to curse me with low chances of backfiring. I made sure to take an extra Masterpiece overpay turn because of that. shark_bait would be proud.

markusin 2-2 Watno

Game 5:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140326/log.5080bad60cf2ab2c11d065ce.1395854376164.txt



This was a Colony game, and it felt like the kingdom wanted Colonies. We both got Merchant ships and Quarries hoping to get Grand Markets. I took the opportunity to get some early Expands for that purpose, while my opponent got more Quarries. We end up splitting the Grand Markets 5-5. That's cool. My opponent got some Platinum and lots of Havens, but I still had my 2 Expands. It was close at the end.

markusin 3-2 Watno

Game 6:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140326/log.5080bad60cf2ab2c11d065ce.1395855106257.txt



This game was tense in its own way. We both open Oracle/Silver. I was hoping to get Trading Post as fast as possible, and indeed I get one on turn 3, but do so over getting Gold. I'm not sure if this was the correct play here, as Trading Post can get in the way of Oracle draw. You can see that my opponent could afford way more Oracles in his deck because he got Gold instead of Oracle. I Manage to be ahead in VP when the Duchies run out, but the presence of Saboteur made things scary. Sab could have trashed a Province and you can't even take Duchy with it. Luckily for me, I got the last Province for the win before Sab could do real damage.

Thank you Watno for the fun games. It's just a shame that you had to put up with disconnects.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 11:12:47 pm by markusin »
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secret tunnel

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2014, 06:26:24 pm »
0

secret tunnel defeats hdu88, 3-1.

Game 1. This was the strangest game of the match. We both went for King's Court with Cutpurse, but with no buys, I think that's probably a mistake all around. I change course before my opponent does, and end up with seven Duchies before scooping up the Dukes. It was a super swingy game, though, with KC-Cutpurses ruining huge hands like KC-KC-Stables-Copper-Copper. I win 68-47.

Game 2: A very close game, with Watchtower, Black Market, and Warehouse playing central roles. The only villages are in the BM deck. In the end, hdu88 nicely accelerates the endgame by Butchering the penultimate Province and wins 24-19.

Game 3: I'm able to open Rebuild/Candlestick Maker; hdu88 tries to keep up Festivals and Wharfs from overpayed Stonemasons, but I'm just way too fast; he manages double Province in turn 14, but I already have four by then. My 5/2 is a pretty big advantage here, I think, but I don't think he can afford not to contest Rebuild. I win 40-15.

Game 4: I'm not really seeing anything very interesting here. Any ideas? We have Develop, Wishing Well, Advisor, Herald, Cartographer, Count, Knights, Rabble, Trading Post, Altar. I shrug my shoulders and decide on money + Rabble; I start picking up Knights late in the game when it starts looking like (a) that might be the 3-pile ending, and (b) using Knights to trash my Duchies is the only chance my opponent has left. I win 42-36.

Thanks hdu88 for a nice series of games!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 06:27:43 pm by secret tunnel »
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Psyduck

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2014, 06:33:39 pm »
+1

Psyduck defeats Emeric 3:0.

Emeric - Psyduck 0:1
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140326/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1395869579210.txt
Masquerade into a Ironmonger-Cultist-Haggler engine. I add an early Spice Merchant and my engine comes together much better.

Psyduck - Emeric 2:0
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140326/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1395870205708.txt
Governor-Duke works really well. He gets one Governor, a Smithy and some Crossroads, while I take two Governors and a Courtyard. We split the duchies evenly, but I manage to win the Duke split 5-3. It is really close, as he has a lead in Provinces , until I draw 2 Governors with 2 Golds for the last two Provinces.

Psyduck - Emeric 3:0
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140326/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1395870846570.txt
Masterpiece-Feodum with Colonies. Both of us go for the Feoda and a Silver flood. Emeric uses Nomad Camps to get hands with lots of money, while I spend some turns to trash down with Count, which proves to be strong. Soon I get lots of Silvers (21-18 at the end), while Emeric's deck suffers a bit from Masterpieces and his early Feoda. He gets 6 Feoda, but I get 7 Provinces and a Colony (thanks to Haven) for the win.

Thank you Emeric for the games, and good luck in the rest of the tournament.
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hdu88

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2014, 06:55:24 pm »
+1

hdu88 vs secret tunnel

Game 1
Probably one of the most interesting games I've played. KC with only Spice Merchant and Stables for draw. Cutpurse is a very potent card as it can deny the draw, especially in conjunction with KC. I ended up going for a treasureless Poor House deck while my opponent goes for Duchies, with Spice Merchant as the only +buy. I'm solidly in the lead until I get 12 straight turns where I don't connect KC with Poor House, despite having 4 KC and 6 Poor House in the deck.

0-1

Game 2
We both go for Black Market. I get Butcher and win.

1-1

Game 3
Wharf engine vs Rebuild. I open 4-3 against a 5-2 and miss both Silver and Baron on the first reshuffle. He plays 11 Rebuilds in the course of 10 turns (Turns 5-14), despite having only 2 in his deck for most of the game. The final score was really lopsided, but I feel like I'm only slightly disadvantaged in the matchup but I was having bottom 5% luck vs my opponent's top 5% luck.

Also, what do you guys think of opening Woodcutter/Potion for the Wharf engine?

1-2

Game 4
We both open double Silver. I get 4-4 to his 6-4 on a money board, but I recover on the next shuffle with 8-6!! which I screw up by buying Altar-Sir Michael on a board with no villages. Sir Michael-Sir Bailey would be a much better choice.

1-3

Thanks for the games secret tunnel, and good luck for the final two rounds!
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jsh357

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2014, 07:48:05 pm »
+1

jsh vs yed

Game 1:


http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140326/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1395868273969.txt

Kind of a dull game with no draw or opportunities for strong gaining.  I get a Remake and shoot for Bandit Camps; he does the same thing.  FPA comes in to play here, I'm sure.

Game 2:


http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140326/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1395870016255.txt

Interesting, dynamic board with a lot of piles to consider.  Really, almost every card is important here.  Eventually we both work up to big Squire/Hunting Grounds/Ironmonger/Bridge engines.  It all came down to endgame tactics.

Game 3:


http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140326/log.51102b6ee4b06719e45eef9d.1395871156826.txt

Tactician is the only +buy here, and it clashes with some of the other cards, but I take it.  I green early (too early) and build up a lead with my Throne Room/Cutpurse thing, then win by locking Yed out of points.  On one turn, I remake 2 Throne rooms to Duchies, which is risky, but needed to ensure he can't catch up.

This was a very interesting set of games (aside from #1) that either of us probably could have won, really.
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2014, 07:52:43 pm »
+1


Psyduck - Emeric 3:0
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140326/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1395870846570.txt
Masterpiece-Feodum with Colonies. Both of us go for the Feoda and a Silver flood. Emeric uses Nomad Camps to get hands with lots of money, while I spend some turns to trash down with Count, which proves to be strong. Soon I get lots of Silvers (21-18 at the end), while Emeric's deck suffers a bit from Masterpieces and his early Feoda. He gets 6 Feoda, but I get 7 Provinces and a Colony (thanks to Haven) for the win.

Thank you Emeric for the games, and good luck in the rest of the tournament.

Hmm this one is interesting. I think i would have done somethink completely different than you two did. In my experience in Feodum Masterpiece games it is most important to get up to big Masterpieces. On 5/2 i think i would have gone Rabble to reach that and on 4/3 i would have even opened Treasure Map/Silver and get another 1 or 2 Treasure Maps the next shuffle. After they collided you will have a 12-14$ hand and can get 9-11 Silvers on a single Masterpiece. You will probably lose the Feodum split 5/3 or even 6/2 this way, but if you lose in 6/2 your opponents economy will be so crippled that you can easily catch up on Points with your AMAZING Economy having 4 Golds and about 13 Silvers in your Deck from around turn 7 on. If your opponent also builds up a bit and doesnt start on Feoda too early you will get at least 3 of them and those will be worth much more than his 5 in that case.
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hdu88

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2014, 08:08:35 pm »
0

Also, what do you guys think of opening Woodcutter/Potion for the Wharf engine?

Candlestick/Potion opening without Baron
Candlestick/Potion opening with Baron
Silver/Baron opening

I think I made the right opening.
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antigoth

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2014, 10:40:07 pm »
+1

I lost to Brave Bear 1-3-1, but he doesn't know how to post the logs:
Game 1
http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20140326/log.52215356e4b08be7ae40aa77.1395883404307.txt
1-0

Game 2
http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20140326/log.52215356e4b08be7ae40aa77.1395884063077.txt
1-1

Game 3
http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20140326/log.52215356e4b08be7ae40aa77.1395884992938.txt
1-1-1

Game 4
http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20140326/log.52215356e4b08be7ae40aa77.1395886585362.txt
1-2-1

Game 5
http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20140326/log.52215356e4b08be7ae40aa77.1395887698178.txt
1-3-1

Game 1 I got lucky and the deck fired on the last turn so I could buy two provinces and end it.
Game 2 He hit 6 six really early, got the horde, and the game as a result. (I think it was turn 3)
Game 3 I could have won, and avoided the draw, but I mis-used my Pawn.
Game 4 was all over the place. A Fun set-up, but neither of us had a really solid plan of what we were doing.
Game 5 - with my build choice I don't think I could have done anything differently.

Good luck Brave Bear.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2014, 10:44:28 pm »
+1

ADK beats azadin 4-2

Game 4 ended prematurely when azadin disconnected, he was winning handily though so we decided to count it as a win for him. Goko ate the log but you can see the game in my video. I'll post the logs here then add a link to the video when it uploads.

Game One
Game Two
Game Three
Game Five
Game Six

Video, it's all in on massive chunk but at least it's up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htbuFuPgfcY
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 11:49:28 pm by A Drowned Kernel »
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BraveBear

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2014, 01:15:04 pm »
0

I lost to Brave Bear 1-3-1, but he doesn't know how to post the logs:
Game 1
http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20140326/log.52215356e4b08be7ae40aa77.1395883404307.txt
1-0

Game 2
http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20140326/log.52215356e4b08be7ae40aa77.1395884063077.txt
1-1

Game 3
http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20140326/log.52215356e4b08be7ae40aa77.1395884992938.txt
1-1-1

Game 4
http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20140326/log.52215356e4b08be7ae40aa77.1395886585362.txt
1-2-1

Game 5
http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20140326/log.52215356e4b08be7ae40aa77.1395887698178.txt
1-3-1

Game 1 I got lucky and the deck fired on the last turn so I could buy two provinces and end it.
Game 2 He hit 6 six really early, got the horde, and the game as a result. (I think it was turn 3)
Game 3 I could have won, and avoided the draw, but I mis-used my Pawn.
Game 4 was all over the place. A Fun set-up, but neither of us had a really solid plan of what we were doing.
Game 5 - with my build choice I don't think I could have done anything differently.

Good luck Brave Bear.

Game 1.  I don't think you got lucky at all antigoth.  You picked the better strategy and should have fired off earlier.  My count strat was reliable but just not fast enough.

Game 2. Turn 3 hoard is pretty hard to defeat on that board.

Game 3.  I could have won too on the last turn but went into autopilot because I thought my deck was unstoppable.  Of course I stall instead of icing it.

Game 4.  I think a scout-scout strategy would have beaten both of ours in that game.  Rats is a trap card that I cant seem to avoid or maybe I just don't know how to play it well.

Game 5.  This was an obvious engine board however there wasn't plus buy so I thought BM-Masquerade would be faster.  I completely forgot about HoP and really should have lost this one.

Great fun games anitgoth!  Good luck in the rest of the trny.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2014, 02:29:31 pm »
+3




Game 1:



Code: [Select]
Duchess, Develop, Loan, Woodcutter, Salvager, Young Witch, Mountebank, Outpost, Saboteur, Wharf, Fairgrounds
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140326/log.50745d1a0cf28ed55d9d6498.1395864304710.txt

We both open Young Witch/Silver and ignore the bane Develop. We both then get a Mountebank on the next shuffle. And then gamesou gets a Gold in turn 5, turn 8 and turn 11 while I never hit $6 until turn 14, unbelievable bad luck, I think. But until then gamesou already started greening and tried to pile the game by depleting Duchies and Duchesses. I just weren't able to come back from this.


Game 2:



Code: [Select]
Chapel, Apothecary, Black Market, Smugglers, Wishing Well, Bureaucrat, Conspirator, Farming Village, Fortress, Contraband
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140326/log.50745d1a0cf28ed55d9d6498.1395866536493.txt

I open Black Market/Chapel while gamesou opens Contraband/Chapel what was probably the superior opening. My opening buys collided anyway I felt that I was way behind pretty fast. I think I did a good job blocking the cards he wants to buy with his Contraband, naming Black Market first and later Wishing Well because of his Conspirators, so that he was mostly only able to buy one card. In turn 9 I got out of the Black Market what I was waiting for: Witch. gamesou got Bishop out of it and trashed his Chapel with it, something that probably was a bit premature as I can play the Witch each turn and he couldn't keep up with the trashing and he is only able to trash a Fortress once in the game with it. I then finally got around to pick up the Smugglers and my Conspirator chain starts working very well. gamesou bought a Province in turn 10, but then his deck fell apart with all the Curses in it. One turn I misclicked and bought Tunnel out of the Black Market game, but in the end I was even able to trigger it twice with my Farming Villages. I later was able to regularly hit Provinces while he couldn't get more than 2 what won me the game.


Game 3:



Code: [Select]
Forager, Navigator, Silk Road, Apprentice, Highway, Merchant Ship, Tactician, Adventurer, Goons, Forge
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140326/log.50745d1a0cf28ed55d9d6498.1395867430879.txt

I totally missed Tactician/Forge in this game and opened Forager/Silver, getting a second Forager soon and aiming for a Tactician deck with a lot of Highways and one Goons. gamesou open 5/2 though and opened Tactician getting his Tactician in turn 3, buying Forge in turn 4, playing Tactician again in turn 5, forging half of his deck in turn 6, playing Tactician in turn 7 again and forging the whole deck into a Goons in turn 8, so basically the best shuffle luck you can get. So, even if I would have seen Tactician/Forge, I never would have been able to compete with that. He then gets 8 of the Highways and wins easily.


Game 4:



Code: [Select]
Herbalist, Hermit, Sage, Pirate Ship, Trader, Worker's Village, Golem, Council Room, Mountebank, Rogue
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140326/log.50745d1a0cf28ed55d9d6498.1395868357237.txt

Now THIS game. Please help me out here. I'm so confused. Please watch the video for the full awesomeness. Well there's a Mountebank which is always a big deal. Okay there is Hermit and Trader which can counter Mountebank a bit, but still, ... right? So I open Hermit/Trader, aiming to Silver flood and depending if he gets Trader(s) getting Mountebanks or not. Okay, gamesou opens Hermit/Silver. I can understand that. But then he buys a Potion in turn 3! POTION!? What is he trying to do!? Okay, maybe he is trying to play Mountebank over and over again with his Golems. Still I'm confused. Then he gets a Pirate Ship in turn 4! PIRATE SHIP!? Okay, now I'm getting really confused. What is he trying to do!? Well, I just try to don't care, although I'm fealing really uncomfortable because I must clearly miss an obvious strategy that I just couldn't find. I just Silver flood as good as I can and try to don't care. I think now I must punish him and get 2 Mountebanks in turn 6 and 7. gamesou now heavily goes for Hermits and turns a lot into Madmen. In turn 9 he already let 2 of them go crazy, but couldn't find his Worker's Village, so he had to spend $9P for a Golem. I think he is super unlucky there. I also get a bit unlucky because my Mountebanks decided to be BFF as they always collided. But he really didn't care as he could easily immediately trash Curses with all his Hermits he had. In turn 13 I had enough for my first Province while gamesou still only got one Pirate Ship and now started to pile on Sages. He then gets double Pirate Ship, I get my second Province. Then gets tokens 4 and 5 and let 2 of his Hermit turn into Madmen. I get my third Province. All is fine, right? He then plays some Madmen and gets to a Double Province turn and gains a Herbalist from a Hermit. I get my fourth Province in a row. He then gets Duchy/Worker's Village. I get a Duchy, he gets a Duchy. I get Province #5 and draw another Province hand, so this should be the game for me, as I lead with 17 points and only 1 Province remaining and he can only get to 4 buys max, right? WRONG! He finds both of his remaining Madmen, draws his only Hermit trashing his only Curse, gaining an Estate and gets to both of his Worker's Villages and his Herbalist for the 4 buys he needs to buy triple Duchy and a Province for a 1 point win. WHAT!? Unbelievable, I think. Please tell me what I did wrong here. Is Pirate Ship really the way to go, or did I just get unlucky?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 02:31:50 pm by Qvist »
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DG

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2014, 03:13:44 pm »
0

DG 3.5 - 0.5 Faust

Game 1 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50733066fca2ca7237ee9b77.1395943957191.txt
I think I'm going to be in trouble when my opponent gets a lead after a 5/2 rebuild opening but I have first turn advantage and a young witch so things recover later on and I can buy the last curse when ahead. I'm guessing more banes would have helped.
Game 2 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50733066fca2ca7237ee9b77.1395944648392.txt
I'm playing a quite a dull duchy duke game but my opponent tries something a bit more clever with counterfeit and madman that probably didn't deserve to fade away as a 3 pile ending drawn on estates.
Game 3 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50733066fca2ca7237ee9b77.1395945271361.txt
There's quite a lot potentially going on here. Faust opens swindler/swindler so I take the opportunity to try a beggar and it seems to work. After we both take altars and I feel this going to descend into an igg/duchy rush so I empty the iggs even with no left curses in the supply and then focus on the rush.
Game 4 - http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50733066fca2ca7237ee9b77.1395946260044.txt
Faust is drawn into a quite difficult altar/salvager engine but I follow my draws and play a quite dull margrave+treasure deck on the grounds that even if the engine works it wouldn't stop a treasure deck scoring steadily. 

Thanks for the games.
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2014, 03:23:32 pm »
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soulnet 3 - 3 JOG

Exciting match, with a bit of everything, engine, slog, money, mistakes, good strategy executed poorly being beaten by inferior strategy executed thoroughly...

Game 1: http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140327/log.50a44d70e4b09c3f1c235128.1395936182328.txt
Code: [Select]
Poor House, Lighthouse, Fortune Teller, Smugglers, Tunnel, Bridge, Feast, Monument, Ghost Ship, Jester
No village, no draw. This is a money game. Oh, Ghost Ship+BM, how ugly. Oh, I better get some lighthouses. Oh, if getting a lot of lighthouses = opponent's Ghost Ships are terrible. I plan to open Monument+Lighthouse and dive Lighthouses, Monuments and money. However, he opens Lighthouse on $4, so I do not dive the LH and go heavier on monuments. He tries Smugglers and it pays off, Smuggling Monument and Gold eventually. However, his initial lack of money and my early Monument give me some advantage. I get penultimate Province while ahead, and have plenty of Golds. However, his Ghost Ships made it through exactly when I have Province money and he gets a nice hand (I still do not know how it happened) and wins it. It seemed from my point of view, that I was just unlucky in the endgame race for VP.
0 - 1

Game 2: http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140327/log.50a44d70e4b09c3f1c235128.1395937223434.txt
Code: [Select]
Fool's Gold, Moat, Trade Route, Ironmonger, Salvager, Treasure Map, Bandit Camp, Festival, Ghost Ship, GoonsThis is OBVIOUSLY a Goons engine, right? Well, that is so obvious, that neither of us actually do it. He starts off with Fool's Gold, which I think are clearly a mistake against Goons, because you cannot finish up the Provinces by yourself and I am not going to help. I start building an engine, but I am not discilpined and this takes a long time because there is no good draw and no good trashing. After getting lots of Goons and Ironmongers, I see him change his mind and go for the engine, so piles start running low. In the first double Goons opportunity, I change into a slog and start accumulating points and draining piles. He keeps building, which is the right move, but is not patient enough to actually go for the multigoons every turn and buys some green (probably feeling out of time, but I think was the wrong move). I win with a not so big margin, probably due to his failed start with Fool's Gold which gave me a huge advantage.
1 - 1

Game 3: http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140327/log.50a44d70e4b09c3f1c235128.1395938423479.txt
Code: [Select]
Lighthouse, Stonemason, University, Masquerade, Procession, Talisman, Counting House, Highway, Tactician, HaremThis has awful draw (just Masquerade) and awful Villages and pseudo-+buy in Tactitian and Talisman, not really nice. I go for heavy trashing with Masq and then Highways with Talisman to double up first Highways and then Platinums. The deck comes together fast and I seem to be miles ahead. He goes for University but quickly changes because he notices is not fast enough. However, his Tactitian is really nice (I never pick up one) and lets him time his buys better than me. I cannot buy the last Colony because I would lose on turns, and my deck is overbuilt. He does incredible tactical manouvers with his Tactitian hands to get Stonemason and play it to deplete Provinces and win. I should have been planning for the endgame a bit more and get SM or Tactitian for some extra endgame control. Also, trashing Colony for two Provinces actually gives positive VP (as opposed to trashing Provinces and getting Duchies), so SM is even better as extra VP source.
1 - 2


Game 4: http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140327/log.50a44d70e4b09c3f1c235128.1395939493188.txt
Code: [Select]
Poor House, Chapel, Apothecary, Mining Village, Nomad Camp, Remake, Embassy, Hunting Party, Merchant Guild, MountebankThis is the most interesting board of the match. Lots of possibilities. I pass on Remake because of Poor House, and go for Apothecary to be resilient to Mountebanks Coppers. He opens both Remake and Chapel, going for Poor House treasureless deck. He starts off really fast, getting a nice HP stack and most of the villages, to the point that I start buying them just out of fear of being left out. He has a nice engine and I trashed my Coppers and find myself out of money. However, once I start playing two Mountebanks a turn, I completely bury him in junk and his HPs and Poor Houses are horrible. I finish up this one on piles, but after the heavy attacks, the game was over.
2 - 2

Game 5: http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140327/log.50a44d70e4b09c3f1c235128.1395940443670.txt
Code: [Select]
Embargo, Squire, Swindler, Bishop, Feodum, Remake, Thief, Golem, Library, Wharf
We both open Squire+Wharf on 2/5. It is strange to see Swindler ignored being the only Attack, but we only have a bad village pile (Squire) to share. We both get Remake and start building Wharf drawing engine, adding Bishops eventually. I add more money at the beginning, which lets me get Wharves going faster, which eventually means that I win the Wharf split 6-4, which I think gave me the win.
3 - 2

Game 6: http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140327/log.50a44d70e4b09c3f1c235128.1395941880484.txt
Code: [Select]
Courtyard, Moat, Sage, Advisor, Bridge, Farming Village, Navigator, Counting House, Ghost Ship, TributeThis is obviously a Bridge megaturn, so again, we both do something else. I open 5/2 and open Ghost Ship, which I think sets me in the wrong direction of going money. Of course, after some time, his Moats, Sages and FVs could not care less about my GS while I struggle under his constant Ghost Shipping. I think I had a small oppportunity in this game, but only because he, inexplicably for me, did not add enough Bridges to his engine to get an actual megaturn. Especially since he was overdrawing his deck before starting greening, it was clear that adding bridges and then going for megaturn was going to work. In any case, the game was completely under his control at that point.
3 - 3
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 03:24:36 pm by soulnet »
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dethwing

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2014, 04:00:26 pm »
+1

My match vs Jdaki:

Game 1: First, W, http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1395948241669.txt

Game 2: Second, W, http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1395949373692.txt

Game 3: Second, W, http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1395950002447.txt

Game 1: Council room / inn / merchant guild engine. I got really lucky hitting 2 marauders before he got 1. I should have focussed on council instead of hunting parties. Really bad vs ruins with no trashing!

Game 2: Festival/watchtower. When they ran out I shoulda gone more bakers isntead of labs.

Game 3: No draw = Big money. Merchant guild seemed like best  big money enabler.
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Qvist

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2014, 04:00:46 pm »
+1

I just got notified that my video is bugged as the video stops after 28 mins and only audio works. Not sure what caused that, but I try to re-render and re-upload it as fast as I can.
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JOG

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2014, 05:39:46 pm »
+1

Thanks for games soulnet. 

In first game, I think you're right.  It was just a race for endgame vp and you ended up getting unlucky.

In the goons game (game 2), I'm not sure if goon's engine is better than goons/money- what you did.  Draw is weak and the only reliable village could slow down engine.  Plan from the beginning here for me was to get just a few fool's gold for economy, then build engine.  I should have built just a little more before greening because piles weren't all that low.  I would guess goon's engine, played perfectly, would be slightly better than goons/money here.

In game 4, passing on remake was the right call I think.  I didn't realize there were poor houses until I remade my first copper in turn 7.

Game 5- squire/wharf mirror.  I think you played the wharf engine close to perfectly.  If I was going to play this board again, I think I'd try squire/library instead of squire/wharf.

Game 6- ghost ship money vs bridge engine.  I don't think it's correct here to add 3 or 4 more bridges to the engine and go for megaturn here.  I was just barely drawing my deck and using all or nearly all of my spare actions to do it.  Adding bridges means you might not have enough actions to play them and it would increase the risk of dead hands.  Even without the extra bridges, I had quite a few turns that I couldn't get the engine started.
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soulnet

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2014, 06:05:20 pm »
0

Thanks for games soulnet. 

In first game, I think you're right.  It was just a race for endgame vp and you ended up getting unlucky.

In the goons game (game 2), I'm not sure if goon's engine is better than goons/money- what you did.  Draw is weak and the only reliable village could slow down engine.  Plan from the beginning here for me was to get just a few fool's gold for economy, then build engine.  I should have built just a little more before greening because piles weren't all that low.  I would guess goon's engine, played perfectly, would be slightly better than goons/money here.

In game 4, passing on remake was the right call I think.  I didn't realize there were poor houses until I remade my first copper in turn 7.

Game 5- squire/wharf mirror.  I think you played the wharf engine close to perfectly.  If I was going to play this board again, I think I'd try squire/library instead of squire/wharf.

Game 6- ghost ship money vs bridge engine.  I don't think it's correct here to add 3 or 4 more bridges to the engine and go for megaturn here.  I was just barely drawing my deck and using all or nearly all of my spare actions to do it.  Adding bridges means you might not have enough actions to play them and it would increase the risk of dead hands.  Even without the extra bridges, I had quite a few turns that I couldn't get the engine started.

Game 2: I still don't get the Fool's Gold plan. It seems like the added Treasure would just get in the way. Your engine-y deck seemed to work reasonably good by the end, I think going straight for it would have been the optimal choice instead of what you or I did. Possibly try to trash down a lot, even if Salvager is slow for trashing, and then trying to use Festival instead of Bandit Camp.

Game 5: I don't think squire/library could be fast enough. Wharf is more reliable AND provides the +Buy to amass Squires. And of course, Wharf and Library do mix really well. You would need a lot more Squires to make that work, and I think it is difficult you can get even half the pile against a Wharf opponent.

Game 6: Ok, sorry if I sounded too critical. It always looks easier from the spectator's seat (mine). This looks like a board to train tactical skills. A mirror would have been really delicate.

Thanks for the games!
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Psyduck

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2014, 06:21:06 pm »
0


Psyduck - Emeric 3:0
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?20140326/log.5063625f0cf2b1ff4173dbab.1395870846570.txt
Masterpiece-Feodum with Colonies. Both of us go for the Feoda and a Silver flood. Emeric uses Nomad Camps to get hands with lots of money, while I spend some turns to trash down with Count, which proves to be strong. Soon I get lots of Silvers (21-18 at the end), while Emeric's deck suffers a bit from Masterpieces and his early Feoda. He gets 6 Feoda, but I get 7 Provinces and a Colony (thanks to Haven) for the win.

Thank you Emeric for the games, and good luck in the rest of the tournament.

Hmm this one is interesting. I think i would have done somethink completely different than you two did. In my experience in Feodum Masterpiece games it is most important to get up to big Masterpieces. On 5/2 i think i would have gone Rabble to reach that and on 4/3 i would have even opened Treasure Map/Silver and get another 1 or 2 Treasure Maps the next shuffle. After they collided you will have a 12-14$ hand and can get 9-11 Silvers on a single Masterpiece. You will probably lose the Feodum split 5/3 or even 6/2 this way, but if you lose in 6/2 your opponents economy will be so crippled that you can easily catch up on Points with your AMAZING Economy having 4 Golds and about 13 Silvers in your Deck from around turn 7 on. If your opponent also builds up a bit and doesnt start on Feoda too early you will get at least 3 of them and those will be worth much more than his 5 in that case.

Thanks for your feedback. I certainly agree with you that it's most important here to get big hands as soon as possible. However I still think that Count is quite good to reach that goal. The +$3 bonus helps a lot, but in that game I decided to trash down first. This way I made sure having lots of $8 hands later on. Having 21 Silvers out of 31 cards after turn 9 does not seem slow to me, although I'm not sure if Rabble might accomplish even more. Honestly, Treasure Map is a card that I didn't consider here at all, as I really dislike relying on them to collide. But I agree that they can be strong if they collide early enough.
What I did wrong here is to go for Provinces over Feoda. The Feoda were worth even more, and my opponent could buy them easily even with his weaker economy.
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Titandrake

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2014, 08:39:19 pm »
0

Titandrake 1 - 3 GeoLib

Entire broadcast at http://www.twitch.tv/titandrake/b/514804927, starting at around 30 minutes in. I'll see what I can do for individual matches later.

Games:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1395956286956.txt

Rebuild game, GeoLib has 5/2 opening, but I don't think that's a big lead here. I open Smugglers/Silver over Militia/Silver which turns out awful, I have no money and waste so many opening buys.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140327/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1395957456723.txt

I try some Mercenary-Treasure Map-Remodel thing, but I misplay by buying Silver over a 3rd Urchin early, and my Urchins don't connect until it's too late. GeoLib does Catacombs-BM, which chat thinks is better. If Urchins collide and Treasure Maps collide reasonably fast, I think Mercenary is better, but you're at the mercy of shuffle luck for that strategy, and Tunnel is a nice counter to it.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1395959010898.txt

GeoLib DCed on a closer game, with Chapel, Ghost Ship, and Border Village as the only village. This game was a blowout, GeoLib's 5/2 is completely awful. In theory this board is really weird, a very strong engine with Ambassador + Goons, but also Possession. In practice, Possession isn't as good against a Goons deck, and I easily win the Ambassador war early because of opening luck.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1395960471595.txt

And this is a blowout against me, on turns 3 and 4 I get $4 twice while GeoLib gets $5 twice. I do a lot of thinking about whether one of those $4s should have been Remodel or not, turning Estates into Tournaments isn't a bad backup plan. I end up not doing so, opting to buy more Tournaments. The problem is that I'm forced to buy lots of Tournaments because I don't want Silver here, and then when GeoLib gets a Province they all turn dead.

I definitely misplayed the first 2 games, and the luck evened out on the last 2, so overall I'm okay with this series. Thanks for the games!
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 08:41:40 pm by Titandrake »
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jaybeez

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2014, 10:52:23 pm »
0

jaybeez 3 - SquisherX 0

Game 1
Not much to say.  A decent engine with trashing beats a sort of half-engine-half-money deck with no trashing.

Game 2
Witch is better than Soothsayer.

Game 3
This is really why I wanted to post these comments.  I go for a pretty boring Silver/Oasis into mostly-money deck, my opponent builds a really zany engine based around Stonemasoning things to trigger Market Squares to gain Golds, then Stonemasoning those Golds into $5s, then gaining the Golds back with Rogue.  I knew it was going to be way too slow, but he made the game closer than I was expecting, and with even a little bit of draw oh man that would be a fun engine to play.  So kudos to SquisherX for giving it the old college try.
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GeoLib

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2014, 10:53:35 pm »
0

Entire broadcast at http://www.twitch.tv/titandrake/b/514804927, starting at around 30 minutes in. I'll see what I can do for individual matches later.

I can't get the video to play. It says "loading video" and then I get what looks like a darkened title screen for "Binding of Isaac." Am I missing something?
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Titandrake

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2014, 03:02:45 am »
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Hm, it works for me when I try it. Twitch's video system is notorious for its awful quality, so you may need to pause the video and wait for it to load the segment you want to watch before going there.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2014, 12:51:57 pm »
+2

I just got notified that my video is bugged as the video stops after 28 mins and only audio works. Not sure what caused that, but I try to re-render and re-upload it as fast as I can.



Please watch the last game of this match tell me what you think. I'm still baffled.
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GeoLib

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2014, 01:05:20 pm »
0

Hm, it works for me when I try it. Twitch's video system is notorious for its awful quality, so you may need to pause the video and wait for it to load the segment you want to watch before going there.

It's working for me now. Not sure what was wrong.
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Burning Skull

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2014, 04:31:57 pm »
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Quote
Please watch the last game of this match tell me what you think. I'm still baffled.

That's the coolest thing I've ever seen!

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2014, 04:42:07 pm »
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Hm, it works for me when I try it. Twitch's video system is notorious for its awful quality, so you may need to pause the video and wait for it to load the segment you want to watch before going there.

It's working for me now. Not sure what was wrong.
When watching Twitch archive streams from mobile phone I use this Twitch Download Tool.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2014, 04:44:03 pm »
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Please watch the last game of this match tell me what you think. I'm still baffled.
One less mountebank collision and you would win. Also you hit a lot of 7s. I think you got unlucky.
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DG

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2014, 06:58:20 pm »
0

Gamesou vs Qvist:
Game 2 - there a chance to play wishing well to test the top of the deck before playing farming village
Game 3-  there was an opportunity to play 8 highways and forge copper into provinces
Game 4-  the madman/pirate thing was extreme but sage-pirate was simpler to spot and then the rest made sense, sort of
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2014, 07:49:29 pm »
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Titandrake 1 - 3 GeoLib

Entire broadcast at http://www.twitch.tv/titandrake/b/514804927, starting at around 30 minutes in. I'll see what I can do for individual matches later.

Games:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1395956286956.txt

Rebuild game, GeoLib has 5/2 opening, but I don't think that's a big lead here. I open Smugglers/Silver over Militia/Silver which turns out awful, I have no money and waste so many opening buys.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140327/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1395957456723.txt

I try some Mercenary-Treasure Map-Remodel thing, but I misplay by buying Silver over a 3rd Urchin early, and my Urchins don't connect until it's too late. GeoLib does Catacombs-BM, which chat thinks is better. If Urchins collide and Treasure Maps collide reasonably fast, I think Mercenary is better, but you're at the mercy of shuffle luck for that strategy, and Tunnel is a nice counter to it.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1395959010898.txt

GeoLib DCed on a closer game, with Chapel, Ghost Ship, and Border Village as the only village. This game was a blowout, GeoLib's 5/2 is completely awful. In theory this board is really weird, a very strong engine with Ambassador + Goons, but also Possession. In practice, Possession isn't as good against a Goons deck, and I easily win the Ambassador war early because of opening luck.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1395960471595.txt

And this is a blowout against me, on turns 3 and 4 I get $4 twice while GeoLib gets $5 twice. I do a lot of thinking about whether one of those $4s should have been Remodel or not, turning Estates into Tournaments isn't a bad backup plan. I end up not doing so, opting to buy more Tournaments. The problem is that I'm forced to buy lots of Tournaments because I don't want Silver here, and then when GeoLib gets a Province they all turn dead.

I definitely misplayed the first 2 games, and the luck evened out on the last 2, so overall I'm okay with this series. Thanks for the games!

So actual commentary on the games from me:

Game 1: Is 5/2 really an advantage at all? I thought it was a little bit of a disadvantage. Notably both of us nuked our economy pretty badly here. Should my smugglers have been a silver? I figured that smugglers would be good for smuggling duchies, especially since he had also picked one up. Also, was getting all of those estates actually a good idea? I thought that I would be able to rebuild the first couple and then I realized that I wouldn't actually, so I figured what the hell, I'll go for the points since I kept hitting 2. I think it worked out in the end, but was it actually the right call? I didn't get a second rebuild til T15.

Game 2: I think catacombs-tunnel was the right call here. Merc seemed too slow and terminal with no +action. I don't think I played it right though, since my catacombs never hit tunnel. Should I have bought catacombs over gold more often?

Game 3: The one where I got disconnected was actually interesting and close (apparently if you right click in the goko window and click view image it attempts to take you to a png for the entire game and crashes. I fidget with my mouse sometimes when I'm playing. These things to do not combine well. Fun times.) This game was just so painful though. I don't think I was ever even close. Should the second amb have been a silver instead? I don't know. I don't remember the last time I played a game where I felt this helpless from the very beginning.

Game 4: I got super lucky here with the 5/5 on T3/4. From there it was pretty hard for Titandrake to try to catch up. I think I should have just gone for the kill on this one earlier and skipped the duchies, but slogging it out worked out ok anyway. The luck from those last two balance pretty nicely. I'm disappointed that we didn't get to finish the first game 3. It would have been much closer.

Anyway, thanks for the games Titandrake. Thank you also for streaming. It was fun to watch the games from the other side! It would've been nice to be able to see the twitch chat too, but ah well.
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2014, 01:17:10 pm »
+4

Jimmmmm 3.5, AdamH 2.5

A very close and hard-fought match comes down to the last game where our scores were tied. Yeah I wish things had gone differently, but you make your own shuffle luck.

Link to the Twitch stream
Link to the video playlist on YouTube


Game 1:  AdamH 6, Jimmmmm 12
Kingdom Cards: Vineyard, Chapel, Hermit, Market Square, Smugglers, Monument, Young Witch, Stash, Upgrade, Vault, Bank
Game log     Twitch Video     YouTube Video

Yeah well this game. Hermit/Market Square dominates the scene and I'm stuck with a terrible 5/2 opening. I waffle a little bit about maybe opening with an Upgrade to try and get more Hermits that way but eventually just decide to cry and open nothing/Hermit. Terrible start. My opponents sees me pass T1 without a Chapel and says "wow" which makes me think he's not aware of the combo (which he wasn't) so I have a pretty good chance here as he's going for a Vineyards rush that I didn't think was super-strong. He contests the Hermits and they split 5-5, partially because a lovely four-Hermit hand I had, then the Market Squares split 5-5 as well.

Then on turn 10 it's time to pull the trigger. With one Madman in my hand I quickly calculate that I really don't need much to pile the Estates and win this turn so I go for it. The plan fails fantastically as I draw my Madman only after playing one too many Market Squares so that I can't get enough Gold to buy the Estates I need. At this point the game is just totally lost while I desperately scramble around to try and come up with something.

Actually if there's one game in this match I'm bummed about it's this one: after the match a couple of people and I were talking about anything I could have done differently and we couldn't come up with anything -- that shuffle starting at T10 doomed me to lose the game no matter what happened, and I gave myself the highest chance of winning (over 80%) by doing what I did -- we even considered getting more Madmen and using Chapels to trigger MS instead of Hermit but even that doesn't work because Jimm just empties the Chapels too fast and wins. Top that with the fact that things would have been very different on a 3/4 opening or if I hadn't drawn four Hermits on T5 and I'm finally ready to say this game breaks my "you make your own shuffle luck" rule. Oh yeah, and if I had won this game the match outcome would have been different. It's just a little depressing to lose like this when playing such a better strategy, but it's just a game.  :-\


Game 2: Jimmmmm 25, AdamH 46
Kingdom Cards: Native Village, University, Great Hall, Market Square, Caravan, Ironmonger, Wandering Minstrel, Worker's Village, Counterfeit, Governor
Game log     Twitch Video     YouTube Video

Semi-interesting Governor game. I open 5/2 on a Governor board which helps a lot, but I really like my play here. The interesting thing is that there are no terminals on the board so Market Square becomes Strictly Better™ than Worker's Village. Not much else to say about it though.


Game 3: Jimmmmm 34, AdamH 34
Kingdom Cards: Duchess, Market Square, Envoy, Nomad Camp, Counting House, Governor, Junk Dealer, Knights, Laboratory, Treasury, with Shelters
Game log     Twitch Video     YouTube Video

Slightly more interesting Governor game here -- this time Jimmmmm gets the 5/2 and is leading throughout the game, but focuses a lot more on Market Squares and Gold and less on draw which gives me a window to get back in it. The endgame is tense where I'm trying to find situations where I can not-lose the game, and a fortunate draw on my last turn gives me the chance to take a tie which I'm very glad to accept.


Game 4: AdamH 28, Jimmmmm 34
Kingdom Cards: Pawn, Forager, Armory, Coppersmith, JackOfAllTrades, Noble Brigand, Spice Merchant, Treasure Map, Contraband, Horn of Plenty
Game log     Twitch Video     YouTube Video

Jack and money with support. It was a mirror and he won. Maybe it was because his Foragers collided with his Jacks more often? I dunno.


Game 5: AdamH 27, Jimmmmm 22
Kingdom Cards: Cellar, Courtyard, Lookout, Swindler, Advisor, Gardens, Rats, Market, Merchant Ship, Stables, with Shelters
Game log     Twitch Video     YouTube Video

This game was probably the most interesting in the series, especially after reading the chat. Swindler is Always Good™ and it certainly is here. With no village and Stables as non-terminal draw I decide to go for a draw engine while Jimmmmm goes for a more money-ish, more "Swindler-proof" deck. The chat is calling me crazy for trying this, but Cellar is a wonderful card. The chat is telling me I need to buy Coppers to help out my Stables but I didn't want them to become Purples so I thin them out with great deck tracking skills and strategic Lookout plays. I really really like the way I played this board and I'm really happy with this game.


Game 6: Jimmmmm 50, AdamH 40
Kingdom Cards: Pearl Diver, Fishing Village, Philosopher's Stone, Taxman, Counterfeit, Mandarin, Merchant Ship, Trading Post, Treasury, Harem, with Shelters
Game log     Twitch Video     YouTube Video

It all comes down to this last game and it's money?! Ugh! I was hoping for something a little more high-skill. Here it's Taxman and money with some trasher on $5. Jimmmmm chooses Trading Post but I can't hit $5 on my second shuffle so I skip it and go directly for Counterfeit (he gets one later too). I think that makes a big difference because he gets into a great position until T21 where he can buy the last Province and win, but he miscounts the Provinces and grabs Double Duchy instead. Confident in my ability to count (lol) I get the last two Duchies on my next turn and then it all comes down to the last Province! He gets it first and has a pleasant surprise when he finds out he wins the game because of it.


Anyways, it's kinda sad for me that the H/MS game went the way it did and I'm out of the finals because of it, but the rest of the match was fun and exciting to play and that's why I'm in the tournament anyways. Thanks for the match!
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2014, 01:32:25 pm »
+1

On AdamH Game 1. I'm baffled by you not opening Upgrade/Chapel. It looks like the perfect opening to build into Hermit/Market Square. You can convert a few estates into Hermits. Upgrade the Chapel once it's done it's work. Remove all your coppers, play lots of Hermits. You can even gain a Gold or two early so that you can gain a $3 and buy one on a few turns. I don't think this is bad luck at all, I think it's a terrible opening on your part.

Even if you want to open Hermit, why would you not get a Chapel as well? What does keeping the Coppers really do for you?
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2014, 01:40:46 pm »
0

On AdamH Game 1. I'm baffled by you not opening Upgrade/Chapel. It looks like the perfect opening to build into Hermit/Market Square. You can convert a few estates into Hermits. Upgrade the Chapel once it's done it's work. Remove all your coppers, play lots of Hermits. You can even gain a Gold or two early so that you can gain a $3 and buy one on a few turns. I don't think this is bad luck at all, I think it's a terrible opening on your part.

Even if you want to open Hermit, why would you not get a Chapel as well? What does keeping the Coppers really do for you?

I don't see how Upgrade is any better than Hermit here for winning the Hermit Split. Both trash Estates and gain Hermits, but Hermit is much more flexible in doing so; plus Hermit is Hermit which is progress towards the split. So to me the options are either Hermit/nothing or Hermit/Chapel to open on 5/2.

And I really don't think you want the Chapel. The main objective is to get Hermits, so if you're trashing your hand you're not buying a Hermit unless it's an edge case like Chapel and 2 or 3 Estates. Well if it was 2 Estates then Copper would have been better. If it's 3 Estates then I'm sure that's unlikely enough that getting nothing is better.

Keeping the Coppers isn't the best thing in the world but I think amassing Hermits is far more important than thinning here. He Jimmmmm hadn't gotten a Chapel he would have had 7 Hermits or something ridiculous.

I don't think my opening is "terrible" at all, other than the parts I couldn't change.
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Robz888

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2014, 01:41:05 pm »
+1

On AdamH Game 1. I'm baffled by you not opening Upgrade/Chapel. It looks like the perfect opening to build into Hermit/Market Square. You can convert a few estates into Hermits. Upgrade the Chapel once it's done it's work. Remove all your coppers, play lots of Hermits. You can even gain a Gold or two early so that you can gain a $3 and buy one on a few turns. I don't think this is bad luck at all, I think it's a terrible opening on your part.

Even if you want to open Hermit, why would you not get a Chapel as well? What does keeping the Coppers really do for you?

The article for this combo advises against removing your Coppers. They create the "draw" for your Madmen after you discard all your Market Squares.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2014, 01:55:23 pm »
+2

I don't see how Upgrade is any better than Hermit here for winning the Hermit Split. Both trash Estates and gain Hermits, but Hermit is much more flexible in doing so; plus Hermit is Hermit which is progress towards the split. So to me the options are either Hermit/nothing or Hermit/Chapel to open on 5/2.

And I really don't think you want the Chapel. The main objective is to get Hermits, so if you're trashing your hand you're not buying a Hermit unless it's an edge case like Chapel and 2 or 3 Estates. Well if it was 2 Estates then Copper would have been better. If it's 3 Estates then I'm sure that's unlikely enough that getting nothing is better.

Keeping the Coppers isn't the best thing in the world but I think amassing Hermits is far more important than thinning here. He Jimmmmm hadn't gotten a Chapel he would have had 7 Hermits or something ridiculous.

I don't think my opening is "terrible" at all, other than the parts I couldn't change.

The main difference between Upgrade/Hermit is of course that it's nonterminal, so you can trash Estate/Chapel with Upgrade and play a Hermit on the same turn. The other big thing is that Upgrade pairs better with Chapel, which I really think is useful here. I already said this, but the Chapel/Upgrade opening does let you gain a Gold or two early on which allows you to buy/gain a $3 on the same turn. This helps you win the splits. The last difference is that Upgrade lets you do Bank stuff later on which could be pretty important if the rest of the resources are split pretty evenly, you don't know at the start of the game that your opponent isn't doing a mirror.

The article for this combo advises against removing your Coppers. They create the "draw" for your Madmen after you discard all your Market Squares.

Well that's great that the article says it, but I don't see that it's true in general. You can swap Coppers for Golds with Upgrade/Chapel/Market Square and you won't have any issue drawing your deck with multiple Madmen. You get to play your Hermits a lot faster too.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2014, 02:31:22 pm »
0

Ravi vs KingZog3

Game 1:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140329/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1396115072485.txt

I go Engine vs his Money.  I stock up on Markets until I think I can go City.  I finally do and once it gets going he resigns because he realizes that he has been beat. 1-0

Game 2:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140329/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1396116008351.txt

I start very disorganized with the thought of eventually going for Vineyards and Fairgrounds.  There is no buy support, though.  I do end up getting 6 point Fairgrounds going but it is too late and he finishes on Provinces. 1-1

Game 3:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140329/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1396116647760.txt

I go for an early City or two but then try to stock up on Swindlers.  I get an early Quarry which really helps me to build up my engine.  Once it is built up I can just slog his deck with Tacticians, curses and other stuff.  In the end I am able to end on 3 piles very comfortably.

Game 4:
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140329/log.51467e35e4b0de86766bf3f3.1396117196587.txt

Pretty similar strategies.  Though I go for the early Baker instead of a second Soothsayer.  I lose the curse split but my extra bakers help me to grab and win the province race in the end.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2014, 05:08:41 pm »
+2

On AdamH Game 1. I'm baffled by you not opening Upgrade/Chapel
...
I don't think my opening is "terrible" at all, other than the parts I couldn't change.

I just saw your video, unaware of this discussion.
It did physically hurt to see you not open upgrade/chapel.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2014, 05:32:07 pm »
0

On AdamH Game 1. I'm baffled by you not opening Upgrade/Chapel
...
I don't think my opening is "terrible" at all, other than the parts I couldn't change.

I just saw your video, unaware of this discussion.
It did physically hurt to see you not open upgrade/chapel.
You should get that checked out by a medical professional ;)

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2014, 06:04:17 pm »
+1

...

Please link your game logs using gokosalvager.com as the domain instead.  My name forwards to gokosalvager.com right now, but it won't do so for much longer.
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TheMirrorMan

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2014, 08:57:41 pm »
+3

Let me tell you 'bout the burts and the bees

TheMirrorMan - burtsbees : 3 - 0.

Honestly, not much to say about the games. Quick recap :

Game 1 : burtsbees begins, TheMirrorMan wins

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140329/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1396137629723.txt



Code: [Select]
Trade Route, Workshop, Bureaucrat, Conspirator, Cutpurse, Feodum, Quarry, Treasure Map, Cultist, Harvest
I got 5/2 here against his 4/3. Cultist on the board, yeah ... Ruins split won by 7/3. He tries some stuff with trade route but by the time he can actually do stuff, I'm already up three provinces.

Game 2 : TheMirrorMan begins, TheMirrorMan wins

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140329/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1396138664046.txt



Code: [Select]
Hermit, Menagerie, Urchin, Workshop, Alchemist, Envoy, Farming Village, Procession, Apprentice, Grand Market
Well, let's see. There's trashin with Hermit and Mercenary, an engine with Farming Village/Envoy or Alchemist and + buy with Grand Market. What do you do here ?
Menagerie counters the Mercenary attacks - Which I think is the reason him opening Menagerie/Envoy ? I go for Hermit/Potion, although I'm not sure if maybe an Urchin would have been better here.

Plan is simple : Alchemist chain, Mercenary on the end, get some money in, buy Grand Markets and voilà. Only thing is it takes so freaking long to get there. The VP sheet looks horrible - he's quickly at 3 Provinces while I am still getting my deck together - but now it is ideal. I need to buy duchies because of PPR but it seems to work out in the end. I dunno, I don't feel as if I played this well.

Game 3 : TheMirrorMan begins, TheMirrorMan wins

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140329/log.50785f090cf28ed55d9d72bf.1396139526260.txt



Code: [Select]
Vagrant, Sage, Steward, Storeroom, Salvager, Throne Room, Knights, Altar, Border Village, Harem
burtsbees' comment : "I don't like games with knights". Well, that's the first buy on my list here :-)

But seriously, what do you do here ? Trashing with Steward and Salvager, but no extra money, no real draw ...

I like Sage but on this board I don't see it doing much - no real skipping needed. burtsbees opening Sage/TR is just plain out wrong I think.

I open Silver/Salvager and indeed get the first knight. He then needs to catch up (3 - 3 on knights), but then stalls due to lack of economy. By taking the last few knights, he is unable to come back.

Thanks for the games burtsbees and good luck for the next rounds!
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 09:09:16 pm by TheMirrorMan »
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2014, 11:17:29 pm »
0

On AdamH Game 1. I'm baffled by you not opening Upgrade/Chapel
...
I don't think my opening is "terrible" at all, other than the parts I couldn't change.

I just saw your video, unaware of this discussion.
It did physically hurt to see you not open upgrade/chapel.

Look, I understand that you're the best Dominion player in the world, but I still don't see why Upgrade/Chapel is better than Hermit/Chapel, and I don't see why Hermit/Chapel is better than Hermit/nothing. I really really don't see it. How do I assume my opponent is going to do anything but H/MS?

I mean, I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I just don't understand it. Would either you (or Mic Qsenoch) be so kind as to give me some detail on how this works?
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #58 on: March 30, 2014, 12:11:50 am »
+1

On AdamH Game 1. I'm baffled by you not opening Upgrade/Chapel
...
I don't think my opening is "terrible" at all, other than the parts I couldn't change.

I just saw your video, unaware of this discussion.
It did physically hurt to see you not open upgrade/chapel.

Look, I understand that you're the best Dominion player in the world, but I still don't see why Upgrade/Chapel is better than Hermit/Chapel, and I don't see why Hermit/Chapel is better than Hermit/nothing. I really really don't see it. How do I assume my opponent is going to do anything but H/MS?

I mean, I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I just don't understand it. Would either you (or Mic Qsenoch) be so kind as to give me some detail on how this works?

I will try to explain it here (even though i'm neither of the two).
First off: I don't say that opening Upgrade/Chapel instead of Hermit/Nothing helps you win the Hermit split if your opponent rushed Hermits from the start on. But i don't think it gets you considerably behind on that. If you get lucky in your shuffle later you can get  up to 3 Hermits on a Single turn later on (3Copper,1Estate, Upgrade in Hand drawing a Hermit) but getting 2Hermits on the Upgrade turn is more likely than with a Hermit instead.(just because you can still play a Hermit afterwards and because of the one additional card that often makes the difference between $2 and $3 at the Hermit rush early on).
That said, both Chapel and Upgrade can serve as "Hermits" in your megaturn(just for the trashing part) 5 Madmen 5Market Squares 1 Chapel and 1 Upgrade can get you a Megaturn getting you up to 10 Golds that turn. And you can get a few Golds* in the mid-game aswell once you started getting  some MS.  So 5 Provinces on your mega-turn should easily be possible this way.

All this is only a comment on the opening buys here and does not take into account the strategy your opponent did choose against you.
And all in all i still think it's a tough call and certainly not a huge advantage over the Hermit opening.

*If you are just following the plain H/M Combo you wont get those Golds in between because you are very limited on the cards you can trash (max 2 of the 3 Estates)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 12:20:34 am by MarkowKette »
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #59 on: March 30, 2014, 01:08:48 am »
0

On AdamH Game 1. I'm baffled by you not opening Upgrade/Chapel
...
I don't think my opening is "terrible" at all, other than the parts I couldn't change.

I just saw your video, unaware of this discussion.
It did physically hurt to see you not open upgrade/chapel.

Look, I understand that you're the best Dominion player in the world, but I still don't see why Upgrade/Chapel is better than Hermit/Chapel, and I don't see why Hermit/Chapel is better than Hermit/nothing. I really really don't see it. How do I assume my opponent is going to do anything but H/MS?

I mean, I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I just don't understand it. Would either you (or Mic Qsenoch) be so kind as to give me some detail on how this works?

I will try to explain it here (even though i'm neither of the two).
First off: I don't say that opening Upgrade/Chapel instead of Hermit/Nothing helps you win the Hermit split if your opponent rushed Hermits from the start on. But i don't think it gets you considerably behind on that. If you get lucky in your shuffle later you can get  up to 3 Hermits on a Single turn later on (3Copper,1Estate, Upgrade in Hand drawing a Hermit) but getting 2Hermits on the Upgrade turn is more likely than with a Hermit instead.(just because you can still play a Hermit afterwards and because of the one additional card that often makes the difference between $2 and $3 at the Hermit rush early on).
That said, both Chapel and Upgrade can serve as "Hermits" in your megaturn(just for the trashing part) 5 Madmen 5Market Squares 1 Chapel and 1 Upgrade can get you a Megaturn getting you up to 10 Golds that turn. And you can get a few Golds* in the mid-game aswell once you started getting  some MS.  So 5 Provinces on your mega-turn should easily be possible this way.

All this is only a comment on the opening buys here and does not take into account the strategy your opponent did choose against you.
And all in all i still think it's a tough call and certainly not a huge advantage over the Hermit opening.

*If you are just following the plain H/M Combo you wont get those Golds in between because you are very limited on the cards you can trash (max 2 of the 3 Estates)

Those situations where Upgrade is better than Hermit, though, I mean they're *really* unlikely, right? And the situations where Hermit is better just by having another one in the deck? I mean, they seem more likely. And then there are the situations where Upgrade is worse when it doesn't collide with an Estate.

I could have worked around this better by having the mentality that any trasher can function as another Hermit, but with my draw at T10 I couldn't have gotten another Madman anyways before the game was over.

I really feel like getting the maximum number of actual Hermits is the most important thing. Is this assumption wrong?
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2014, 01:26:53 am »
0

On AdamH Game 1. I'm baffled by you not opening Upgrade/Chapel
...
I don't think my opening is "terrible" at all, other than the parts I couldn't change.

I just saw your video, unaware of this discussion.
It did physically hurt to see you not open upgrade/chapel.

Look, I understand that you're the best Dominion player in the world, but I still don't see why Upgrade/Chapel is better than Hermit/Chapel, and I don't see why Hermit/Chapel is better than Hermit/nothing. I really really don't see it. How do I assume my opponent is going to do anything but H/MS?

I mean, I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I just don't understand it. Would either you (or Mic Qsenoch) be so kind as to give me some detail on how this works?

I will try to explain it here (even though i'm neither of the two).
First off: I don't say that opening Upgrade/Chapel instead of Hermit/Nothing helps you win the Hermit split if your opponent rushed Hermits from the start on. But i don't think it gets you considerably behind on that. If you get lucky in your shuffle later you can get  up to 3 Hermits on a Single turn later on (3Copper,1Estate, Upgrade in Hand drawing a Hermit) but getting 2Hermits on the Upgrade turn is more likely than with a Hermit instead.(just because you can still play a Hermit afterwards and because of the one additional card that often makes the difference between $2 and $3 at the Hermit rush early on).
That said, both Chapel and Upgrade can serve as "Hermits" in your megaturn(just for the trashing part) 5 Madmen 5Market Squares 1 Chapel and 1 Upgrade can get you a Megaturn getting you up to 10 Golds that turn. And you can get a few Golds* in the mid-game aswell once you started getting  some MS.  So 5 Provinces on your mega-turn should easily be possible this way.

All this is only a comment on the opening buys here and does not take into account the strategy your opponent did choose against you.
And all in all i still think it's a tough call and certainly not a huge advantage over the Hermit opening.

*If you are just following the plain H/M Combo you wont get those Golds in between because you are very limited on the cards you can trash (max 2 of the 3 Estates)

Those situations where Upgrade is better than Hermit, though, I mean they're *really* unlikely, right? And the situations where Hermit is better just by having another one in the deck? I mean, they seem more likely. And then there are the situations where Upgrade is worse when it doesn't collide with an Estate.

I could have worked around this better by having the mentality that any trasher can function as another Hermit, but with my draw at T10 I couldn't have gotten another Madman anyways before the game was over.

I really feel like getting the maximum number of actual Hermits is the most important thing. Is this assumption wrong?

Well as i said i dont think at all that Upgrade helps you win the Hermit Split. Those situations where the Upgrade is not only better than Hermit for that purpose but even make up for having one less Hermit from start on are extremely rare:
like Hermit, Upgrade, Estate and 2 Coppers in hand (1 Copper on top of the deck) in this case you can get even 3 hermits instead of 1 if the Upgrade is a Hermit. As i said super-extremely rare. But but the situation where the Upgrade makes the difference between $2 and $3  for the buy are not rare at all im my experience.I dont think they are rarer than not colliding Upgrade and Estate(which is roughly a chance of 10% after the first shuffle*). Even though they get much more likely after let's say turn 7(assuming both players rush Hermits first) when the Hermits are already gone so i think this is more important for the MS split than for the Hermit split and yes the Hermit split is quite a bit more important than the MS split.
But if you let's say lost the Hermit Split 6/4 and then won the MS split 6/4 having a Chapel and an Upgrad in your deck and maybe having chapelled down a few coppers aswell still puts you in an ok position against the player with the fortunate 4/3 opening. And if you manage to not lose the Hermit split which i think is not THAT bad of a chance for the above reasonst then you even have a good advantage.

*Having 0 Estates in your 5 cards with the upgrade (4in hand+1draw) is a lot less likely than having 2 Estates in in the 4 cards with your Hermit (which is one of the above mentioned cases)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 01:39:04 am by MarkowKette »
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2014, 04:02:06 am »
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Titandrake 1 - 3 GeoLib

Entire broadcast at http://www.twitch.tv/titandrake/b/514804927, starting at around 30 minutes in. I'll see what I can do for individual matches later.

Games:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1395956286956.txt

Rebuild game, GeoLib has 5/2 opening, but I don't think that's a big lead here. I open Smugglers/Silver over Militia/Silver which turns out awful, I have no money and waste so many opening buys.

http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140327/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1395957456723.txt

I try some Mercenary-Treasure Map-Remodel thing, but I misplay by buying Silver over a 3rd Urchin early, and my Urchins don't connect until it's too late. GeoLib does Catacombs-BM, which chat thinks is better. If Urchins collide and Treasure Maps collide reasonably fast, I think Mercenary is better, but you're at the mercy of shuffle luck for that strategy, and Tunnel is a nice counter to it.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1395959010898.txt

GeoLib DCed on a closer game, with Chapel, Ghost Ship, and Border Village as the only village. This game was a blowout, GeoLib's 5/2 is completely awful. In theory this board is really weird, a very strong engine with Ambassador + Goons, but also Possession. In practice, Possession isn't as good against a Goons deck, and I easily win the Ambassador war early because of opening luck.

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140327/log.50ca9bbae4b0c3bfb6b97227.1395960471595.txt

And this is a blowout against me, on turns 3 and 4 I get $4 twice while GeoLib gets $5 twice. I do a lot of thinking about whether one of those $4s should have been Remodel or not, turning Estates into Tournaments isn't a bad backup plan. I end up not doing so, opting to buy more Tournaments. The problem is that I'm forced to buy lots of Tournaments because I don't want Silver here, and then when GeoLib gets a Province they all turn dead.

I definitely misplayed the first 2 games, and the luck evened out on the last 2, so overall I'm okay with this series. Thanks for the games!

So actual commentary on the games from me:

Game 1: Is 5/2 really an advantage at all? I thought it was a little bit of a disadvantage. Notably both of us nuked our economy pretty badly here. Should my smugglers have been a silver? I figured that smugglers would be good for smuggling duchies, especially since he had also picked one up. Also, was getting all of those estates actually a good idea? I thought that I would be able to rebuild the first couple and then I realized that I wouldn't actually, so I figured what the hell, I'll go for the points since I kept hitting 2. I think it worked out in the end, but was it actually the right call? I didn't get a second rebuild til T15.

Game 2: I think catacombs-tunnel was the right call here. Merc seemed too slow and terminal with no +action. I don't think I played it right though, since my catacombs never hit tunnel. Should I have bought catacombs over gold more often?

Game 3: The one where I got disconnected was actually interesting and close (apparently if you right click in the goko window and click view image it attempts to take you to a png for the entire game and crashes. I fidget with my mouse sometimes when I'm playing. These things to do not combine well. Fun times.) This game was just so painful though. I don't think I was ever even close. Should the second amb have been a silver instead? I don't know. I don't remember the last time I played a game where I felt this helpless from the very beginning.

Game 4: I got super lucky here with the 5/5 on T3/4. From there it was pretty hard for Titandrake to try to catch up. I think I should have just gone for the kill on this one earlier and skipped the duchies, but slogging it out worked out ok anyway. The luck from those last two balance pretty nicely. I'm disappointed that we didn't get to finish the first game 3. It would have been much closer.

Anyway, thanks for the games Titandrake. Thank you also for streaming. It was fun to watch the games from the other side! It would've been nice to be able to see the twitch chat too, but ah well.

Game 1: If the Duchy split was 4-4, I think it would have been the wrong call, but with a 5-3 split it actually forced me to have to buy a Province outright to win. You didn't have to worry about Province->Province not increasing your VP, whereas I have to always guess right to catch up. So in this instance, I think it was right, but I don't think it's right in general.

Game 2: Not sure, you can think of Catacombs as giving 3 discards out of 11 total. (5 card hand, 3 discarded, 3 drawn.) I don't think you need more Catacombs, since you got free enabling from Urchin and Mercenary, and it's probably better to focus on getting $8 given the lack of +Buy. Meaning, buy as many as you would buy without Tunnel involved. If you have a Province lead, I'm forced to pick up more VP cards to win, but can at most Remodel for 1 extra card a turn.

Game 3: I don't think you could have done anything. If second Amb was silver, in a best case scenario you spike an early $6 for Goons, but then you're down an Ambassador and need Fishing Village, and you don't have any draw...maybe it's the right call? Taking a massive risk to hope to get Goons? If you don't hit the $6, you just lose. Yeah, probably hope for Silver, but it looks awful either way.

Game 4: To paraphrase chat, the only way I catch up is by Silk Roads, but you can do it better thanks to Followers. Oh well.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2014, 08:02:13 am »
+1

Adam: There are potentially other ways you can play in some of the games, like game 1, but I am really not sure how to play that kind of game very well, so I would asume you know better than me to start off.

The last game, though, made me cringe. First of all, the way you play, turn 5 you should Taxman a silver quickly, you KNOW it will hit him because he taxmaned INTO silver the previous turn. I don't think Counterfeit really has synergy with taxman, like at all - actually seems to be a bit anti-synergistic to me? But the big thing here is that I'm so sure you want to go something based around Fishing Village-Merchant Ship here, which is not bad at all in terms of money strategies. Aaaaaaaaaaand.... you don't even consider this.

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2014, 09:23:23 am »
+3

Having thought about it a bit I actually think Upgrade/Nothing > Upgrade/Chapel if you're going for Hermit/Market Square (on pretty much any other board or with any other strategy, including the Chapel is clearly superior).

I think the Chapel is bad for the following reasons:

1) You'll spend at least one turn trashing with it where you'd otherwise have been able to buy a Hermit.

2) You're less eager than usual to Chapel away your Estates because to the extend that they don't prevent you from hitting $3 (which isn't a terribly huge constraint) they're somewhat useful as Upgrade fuel.

3) You're not very keen to trash your Coppers either: they're the only treasure in your deck, and without them your Hermit density will spike fairly quickly to the point where multiple turns where you hit less than $3 are not just possible, but even likely, which can easily cost you the game.

4) To remedy this last point, Mic Q suggests to gain an early Gold, but I really don't think you can do this effectively: you first need to get a Market Square over a Hermit at some point (which is an awful idea to start with), then you have to connect your MS with a trasher (and discard it, reducing the value of your current hand, possibly costing you another Hermit) and then you have to draw the Gold in a hand where you'd otherwise have been unable to hit $3, and do this often enough to make up for the lost Hermits. Also note here that once the Hermits are gone, not always hitting $3 isn't a big deal because you actually want to gain the Madmens, so any Golds you might gain "early" are almost certainly too little too late.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2014, 11:35:51 am »
+1

Reasonable points, it's still not clear to me that Upgrade/Nothing leads to a better Hermit split for you in most cases. Would have to play some sample games and see, but it could be true.

Quote
4) To remedy this last point, Mic Q suggests to gain an early Gold, but I really don't think you can do this effectively: you first need to get a Market Square over a Hermit at some point (which is an awful idea to start with), then you have to connect your MS with a trasher (and discard it, reducing the value of your current hand, possibly costing you another Hermit) and then you have to draw the Gold in a hand where you'd otherwise have been unable to hit $3, and do this often enough to make up for the lost Hermits. Also note here that once the Hermits are gone, not always hitting $3 isn't a big deal because you actually want to gain the Madmens, so any Golds you might gain "early" are almost certainly too little too late.

I should clarify that I don't advise to gain Market Squares before Hermits, but the Hermits could be gone by Turns 5-6, at which point the Chapel'd player should be in a better position to gain some Golds, which I think will still be useful for winning the Market Square split, which will be important to the mirror.

Which is the main issue to me: both players ought to be contesting Hermits/Market Squares, which means you get a half-baked combo. The half-baked combo does not mega-turn! At least not in a way that gives them an insurmountable point lead. Your best case scenario after you fire off is that you 3 pile on Estates. But this is hard to do without favorable splits on both piles (you will need a lot of Madmen and Market Squares to manage it). I don't see it happening very often in a mirror (could be wrong here).

Going into the middle/end of the game once the pieces have been divided up, my gut tells me I would rather have the thinner deck. I think you end up fighting for Provinces in a large number of these games, after using some Madman turns to crank out a bunch of high quality treasure and buying 2-3 Provinces. It seems to me that the Chapel'd player has a little bit of an edge going into this kind of endgame.

Anyway, the thing to do would be to try it all a few times and see how the splits fall out.
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2014, 12:19:15 pm »
+6

I just played my match against Marin. It was a strange match, not really living up to the expectations.
Somewhere in between all the resigning, frustration moves and misclicks there were some good games but you'll have to look closely to find them.


Game 1: Provinces / Estates - Altar, Copper, Cultist, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Graverobber, Island, Outpost, Province, Ruins, Scavenger, Silver, Smithy, Vault, Worker's Village, Lookout
Cultist is clearly going to be important but it won't be just Cultist-BM. Cleaning up is too strong with the combination of Altar and the best $3 trasher in the game. The payload of some combination of Outpost, Island & Graverobber is huge.
I decide to open Scavenger/Silver because of this (rather the the usual silver/silver on a cultist board). Marin took it one step further and opened lookout/Scavenger.
On turn 3 I had $7 and was a bit in doubt between Altar and Cultist. In the end I took Altar and it payed off bigtime.

Game 2: Provinces / Estates - Armory, Bureaucrat, Copper, Curse, Develop, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Haggler, Marauder, Merchant Ship, Monument, Province, Ruins, Sea Hag, Silver, Trading Post, Cellar
A bit of a boring set without any villages. He gets to open Trade Route/Cellar and that frustrates me. I shouldn't let it happen but it does. On turn 4 I buy a Trading Post of my own, but that's just a bad card by now. It should have been a gold and it's the play I'm least proud of. I should lose this and I do.

Game 3: Colonies / Estates - Bazaar, Chancellor, Colony, Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Mint, Pearl Diver, Platinum, Potion, Province, Sea Hag, Silver, Tactician, Treasure Map, University, Village, Duchess
Again no real trashing and a Sea Hag, but this is a lot more interesting. Tactician, Mint and University may see play still, because it's a Colony game.
We both decide to skip University. He gets a second Sea Hag and I decide not to. I'm fine with losing the curse split 6-4 because of this. I add a second Tactician where he doesn't.
I'm not really playing double-tact, just single-tact-with-two-tacticians. I like it because first I want to hit $9 and then I want to combine Mint with Platinum a lot, but I can't say I'm sure of it. It does work though.

Game 4: Provinces / Estates - Bandit Camp, Baron, Butcher, Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Knights, Pirate Ship, Province, Rabble, Scavenger, Silver, Tactician, Treasure Map, Storeroom
double tact, knights, no real trashing and Dame Anna on top. Whoever hits $5 first is likely to win here. Because of that I want to open Scavenger/Silver against his Baron/Silver. Unfortunately he gets it, and goes on to have really nice draws. Anna clears out both his deck and mine, except on my side it's not the coppers that go.
His turns take longer and longer while I just click&go. When I'm about ready to resign I realize what happened here... he went first for the 3rd time in a row now. Ugh!
He offers to replay but since he's already as good as won this game that feels a bit unfair. We agree that he can have this one and I'll go first on the remaining two games.

Game 5: Provinces / Shelters - Armory, Band of Misfits, Copper, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Feast, Gardens, Gold, Golem, JackOfAllTrades, Plaza, Potion, Province, Silver, Treasure Map, Venture, Fool's Gold
Here something really strange happened. I clearly consider this an engine board, but somehow Marin wanted to play a slog. First time for everything. On turn 5 he even gets a Gardens, intending to win the split. However, when I take the Golem on turn 6 he switches plan dramatically. It works out reasonably well but he is off course behind after that. Then he makes a misclick with Jack and resigns in frustration. It wouldn't matter though because at that point I had around 12 coin tokens and just wasn't going to miss province anymore, and was likely to hit more feasts then he would.
It's a tricky engine to play - much trickier then I realized at first. Really hard to control reshuffles with Golem and if you go wrong you could be dead in the waters for 3 turns long.

Game 6: Provinces / Estates - Black Market, Copper, Courtyard, Curse, Cutpurse, Duchy, Estate, Gold, Hamlet, Ill-Gotten Gains, Junk Dealer, Plaza, Potion, Province, Remake, Silver, University, Cellar
Black Market! :) It's my favorite card and I think his as well. Maybe I should have suggested playing all 6 games with it. Because of the lack of draw we both decide to skip university, opening remake/courtyard. After that I get extremely good t3/4, where he doesn't. This puts me a mile ahead. After that we're both digging for gems with our double-black-market deck. His main village is Hamlet and unexperienced with goko that just screams for misclicks. His first is on turn 11, discarding Courtyard for a +buy. Then I join the party on my turn 12, which implies I miss the $7 for KC (I knew it was coming). On his turn 12 he again gets a +buy out of his courtyard. This, and my lead, is enough to call it a day.


One good thing though... I told Marin about the extension, he installed it somewhere between game 2 & 3, and now we might see him more often on Goko.
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MarkowKette

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2014, 12:25:37 pm »
+1

Having thought about it a bit I actually think Upgrade/Nothing > Upgrade/Chapel if you're going for Hermit/Market Square (on pretty much any other board or with any other strategy, including the Chapel is clearly superior).

I think the Chapel is bad for the following reasons:

1) You'll spend at least one turn trashing with it where you'd otherwise have been able to buy a Hermit.

2) You're less eager than usual to Chapel away your Estates because to the extend that they don't prevent you from hitting $3 (which isn't a terribly huge constraint) they're somewhat useful as Upgrade fuel.

3) You're not very keen to trash your Coppers either: they're the only treasure in your deck, and without them your Hermit density will spike fairly quickly to the point where multiple turns where you hit less than $3 are not just possible, but even likely, which can easily cost you the game.

4) To remedy this last point, Mic Q suggests to gain an early Gold, but I really don't think you can do this effectively: you first need to get a Market Square over a Hermit at some point (which is an awful idea to start with), then you have to connect your MS with a trasher (and discard it, reducing the value of your current hand, possibly costing you another Hermit) and then you have to draw the Gold in a hand where you'd otherwise have been unable to hit $3, and do this often enough to make up for the lost Hermits. Also note here that once the Hermits are gone, not always hitting $3 isn't a big deal because you actually want to gain the Madmens, so any Golds you might gain "early" are almost certainly too little too late.

I agree with you on most of this. But:

1. if worst comes to worst you can upgrade chapel into a Hermit

2. as stated earlier you have one more trasher in your deck für your megaturn
(and yes you will hit a $2 hand later aswell, but at that time you rather want to buy nothing to turn a Hermit into a Madman)

3. i would not forego on buying a Hermit to instead trash down with chapel

4. the one extra "dead card" hurts less early than it benefits later on when hermits are gone and MS are going low. (but thats just what i think and might totally be wrong)
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liopoil

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2014, 04:45:05 pm »
0

liopoil  2 - 1 tenuki
Game 1:
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140328/log.516d4618e4b082c74d7b73c9.1396041215899.txt
Tenuki wins, 0-1
Game 2: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140328/log.516d4618e4b082c74d7b73c9.1396042409667.txt
liopoil wins, 1-1
Game 3: http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140328/log.516d4618e4b082c74d7b73c9.1396044154952.txt
liopoil wins, 2-1

After the third game tenuki had to leave. We had planned to resume today, but he wasn't able to make it, so he resigned the match.
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GeoLib

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2014, 05:24:39 pm »
0

Sorry forgot to post the log. Hope its not to late.

Posting the logs isn't required. You're all good. (Also you have a little over 24 hours before the deadline).
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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2014, 06:52:17 pm »
0

amalloy 3-1 hsiale

You can watch the full stream on Twitch, and there's a link to the video of each game next to its log link.


Game 1 Log Video



Code: [Select]
Courtyard, Lighthouse, Pawn, Scheme, Farming Village, Spice Merchant, Spy, Haggler, Mandarin, Upgrade
We both go for a Haggler/Scheme/village kind of thing, with Upgrade to improve the stuff you get from Haggler but don't really want. His 5/2 lets him open Haggler, which seems strong and lets him get Upgrades before me. But he's using his Upgrade on Coppers, so they're just worse than my Spice Merchant anyway, and it's a pretty close game even though it seems like he has better cards than I do. I start greening before he does; he's still in it, but starts draining piles while he's behind, and I can just buy Province and empty out the last pile.

amalloy 1-0 hsiale


Game 2 Log Video



Code: [Select]
Scrying Pool, Chancellor, Feodum, Treasure Map, Counting House, Graverobber, Stash, Tactician, Harem, Forge
I spend a lot of time musing about some really bad plans for this board, and nearly miss Chancellor/Stash - I've never played it before, but I do know it exists. He spots it too, and has a 5/2 again so opens Stash. I think that puts me behind already, and indeed he makes it to Province sooner and more often than I do. Just unlucky, I think, but if I did anything wrong (like buying the wrong number of Chancellors) I'd love to hear about it.

amalloy 1-1 hsiale


Game 3 Log Video



Code: [Select]
Fool's Gold, Develop, Warehouse, Mining Village, Pirate Ship, Golem, Catacombs, Mandarin, Stash, Border Village
No buys, weak trashing, and Fool's Gold looks dominant. We both spend our first five buys on FG, and then it's a race for Provinces: the only interesting thing is whether Catacombs or Warehouse is the best way to hit $8 more often. I think Warehouse is probably better, but at the time I started with Catacombs. Maybe even Pirate Ship to trash opponent's FG? I think that's way too slow, but could be wrong. Eventually I win, but I think it's mostly shuffle luck, just like losing game 2 was.

amalloy 2-1 hsiale


Game 4 Log Video



Code: [Select]
Beggar, Caravan, Death Cart, Ironmonger, Monument, Remake, Silk Road, Butcher, Junk Dealer, Stables
I decide that Remake and Butcher can get me lots of 4s, and in a deck with only actions Ironmonger will let me play lots of Monuments and Butchers every turn. My opponent plays Stables/money, with a Monument and a Junk Dealer. I play my deck quite badly, getting a second Junk Dealer over a Butcher, and find that my opponent is slurping down the Provinces before my deck is close to doing what I planned. I have to compete the Provinces, and that slows me down even more. At the end, I get a very lucky draw: Silver, 2 Monuments, a Butcher, a Province, and enough Ironmongers to play it all. That lets me go from down 7 to up 1, and pile out the last two Provinces to end the game. I don't think my play deserved the win here, but I'll take what I can get.

amalloy 3-1 hsiale.


Thanks for the match, hsiale, and good luck in the rest of the tournament!
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 07:09:04 pm by amalloy »
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thetig333

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2014, 10:47:14 pm »
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...

Please link your game logs using gokosalvager.com as the domain instead.  My name forwards to gokosalvager.com right now, but it won't do so for much longer.

Sorry, will do.
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amalloy

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #72 on: March 31, 2014, 01:35:53 am »
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...

Please link your game logs using gokosalvager.com as the domain instead.  My name forwards to gokosalvager.com right now, but it won't do so for much longer.

Could you set up drunkensailor to redirect with a 301 to gokosalvager? As you're just serving the same content now, it's not obvious that the old domain is going away, unless someone wanders into a relevant forum thread. With a 301, users' browsers will get a chance to suggest you update your bookmark, or whatever.
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AdamH

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Re: GokoDom III: Round 5 Discussion Thread
« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2014, 07:50:36 am »
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A couple of things that have enlightened me about this H/MS game discussion.

1. I want to try some different enablers for H/MS, specifically Copper-trashers. You can get more "Hermits" in your deck by using these instead, allowing you to have more Madmen. I had never considered this before and can be very useful in a mirror when components are limited.

2. I'm still not convinced that Upgrade is the right move over Hermit in the opening, but I might come around on Chapel being better than nothing. I don't know when I would do it, but I'm open to trying some things out.
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