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Author Topic: Dominion Online set selection  (Read 36496 times)

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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2014, 03:23:22 pm »
+2

I really need some clarification here. Is there really a perception that people are attempting to game the kingdom when playing casual??? In the last year and a half I have NEVER come across a kingdom where I thought someone set it up for the express purpose of exploiting some secret combo or evil pin.
LastFootnote said half the games were casual, which does make it sound like this isn't actually much of an issue. Still if hiding the card list is sometimes acceptable and means you don't need to worry about a fix, it seems easy to offer.

I hadn't considered not having time to look at the list. And with automated matchmaking you aren't looking at it at all. If there's a box for "no fixed games plz" then no-one will be playing against innocent people who want to play with Develop a bunch. It could be that the recommended sets were built-in and pre-approved, you could pick one card with no flags, but checking the box would stop you from matching people who picked two cards. And uh as before maybe you can say "5 from Seaside" and man that's no fix.

I guess I think there is use for a casual ranking for matchmaking, but it's never going to be perfect.
I think the matchmaking issue kills the idea of just not rating casual games. That probably also reduces unrated games to a footnote though, see what I did there. You could have people rate themselves for casual matchmaking, or have a quiz, but odds are everyone is happier with people having a ranking from playing games.
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Watno

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2014, 03:31:02 pm »
0

You could also take the approach of having a hidden casual rating for matchmaking. That would allow people to play without worrying about that number, while still matching them into even and therefore interesting matches.

I really dislike isotropic-style veto mode. If people vote out cards they generally dislike, a veto as suggested by Donald is way better for that. And if people vote out out cards that work particularily well in the given set, that leads to less interesting games.

I'm still in favor of only having gamesd with all expansions count as pro.
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DG

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2014, 03:38:15 pm »
+1

To repeat myself from another thread:  Players should be able to choose which of their expansions they play with. If they only want to play with Intrigue and Guilds then they should be able to do just that.

As a new suggestion: Players should not get a rating until they have played 10 games. After they have played 10 games an appropriate rating can be created for them. This can apply to both pro and casual.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2014, 03:41:03 pm »
0

LastFootnote said half the games were casual, which does make it sound like this isn't actually much of an issue.

What I said was that over half the games are Pro. It's more like 30% to 40% are Casual, by my estimation. And maybe half of those casual games are Base-only.

I think the matchmaking issue kills the idea of just not rating casual games. That probably also reduces unrated games to a footnote though, see what I did there. You could have people rate themselves for casual matchmaking, or have a quiz, but odds are everyone is happier with people having a ranking from playing games.

I do indeed see what you did there. I'm fine with removing Unrated games (or making them impractical) if that's what it takes for everyone to have good matchmaking. I can just play Casual and try not to care about my ranking. Mainly I just want to be able to set up a Casual table with the cards I want and still be able to attract players. It would be nice if I didn't lose that ability in the transition to matchmaking.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2014, 05:22:15 pm »
+2

What I said was that over half the games are Pro. It's more like 30% to 40% are Casual, by my estimation. And maybe half of those casual games are Base-only.
I see, I misread it. Well 30% is still enough to feel like "worries about rigged games" aren't destroying casual (although obv. if there's something good to do there it should be done).

I think for casual it's obvious that you should be able to ban cards, rather than wait and see the set of 10 (and also should be able to wait and see the set of 10). Being able to hide the set of 10 (from yourself and everyone) (and matchmake based on that) addresses rigged games concerns, although I don't know how much that really helps. I can believe it helps enough to be worth a checkbox.

For pro mode it's all about perception. If most people wanted the proposed vetoing then I would go for it, there will always be some people who don't like whatever you've done. If some people use it and some don't, you can (as proposed) opt out and only play games without it, so the issues are 1) you opt in because you perceive that it's advantageous, even though you hate it, and 2) you opt out but hate feeling like it puts you at a disadvantage. How much of a disadvantage it would actually amount to isn't really relevant; what matters is how much you hate it vs. how much joy is produced the other way. And well how much those things matter when everything is added up, I mean you can argue that increasing net joy at some point doesn't matter as much as reducing net hate.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2014, 05:29:28 pm »
0

I think for casual it's obvious that you should be able to ban cards, rather than wait and see the set of 10 (and also should be able to wait and see the set of 10). Being able to hide the set of 10 (from yourself and everyone) (and matchmake based on that) addresses rigged games concerns, although I don't know how much that really helps. I can believe it helps enough to be worth a checkbox.

I'm having trouble visualizing how this will work. Do people still create their own tables with automatch, or does automatch create the game for them? If people create tables, how does automatch decide whose table to use? Or is there a dichotomy between automatch hosts and automatch joiners and you choose which to be?

I think we should talk about this before (or concurrently with) talking about being able to play hidden sets of 10 in casual, etc. As it stands I can't really formulate opinions about that stuff without knowing the framework.
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hsiale

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2014, 06:01:31 pm »
0

Is there really a perception that people are attempting to game the kingdom when playing casual??? In the last year and a half I have NEVER come across a kingdom where I thought someone set it up for the express purpose of exploiting some secret combo or evil pin.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1124861/highest-dominion-score-youve-ever-seen
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Polk5440

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2014, 07:01:33 pm »
0

Is there really a perception that people are attempting to game the kingdom when playing casual??? In the last year and a half I have NEVER come across a kingdom where I thought someone set it up for the express purpose of exploiting some secret combo or evil pin.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1124861/highest-dominion-score-youve-ever-seen

I am not sure what you are showing me here except a fairly interesting* kingdom worth playing a few times and an opponent who has no idea how to play with or against Goons. Maybe roy let it go 3 turns too long because he enjoys racking up those Goons points in a game he was essentially playing solitaire? This is hardly an egregious abuse. 

"Fairly interesting" because there are a few ways to enable Big Goons -- cheaper Library-Village or Village-Smithy or the more expensive Bazaar/City-Council Room.
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JW

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #58 on: March 24, 2014, 07:32:01 pm »
+1

I really need some clarification here. Is there really a perception that people are attempting to game the kingdom when playing casual??? In the last year and a half I have NEVER come across a kingdom where I thought someone set it up for the express purpose of exploiting some secret combo or evil pin.

Isn't it more likely just sour grapes? You got beat and you didn't see the winning strategy so it must be that the other person did something nefarious rather than just beat you?

I've certainly had someone say "you must have played this kingdom before" when I just saw that Beggar combos with Duke. But I've also had someone say "you must know the correct opening but the kingdom looks fun anyway" on joining a (randomly generated) game (and then beat me!).

If you are looking for a game with an opponent with a relatively high rating, it is much easier to find a pro game than a casual game. It's hard for me to say why people who play essentially all pro games don't play casual, but I have to imagine that the idea of an equal footing is a part of it. The thin market for casual games also means that even if you generate a kingdom in a random way you often end up waiting a few minutes for someone to join and get to think about how you would play for that time which gives a slight advantage in practice.

« Last Edit: March 24, 2014, 07:36:48 pm by JW »
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #59 on: March 24, 2014, 07:53:19 pm »
+3

I'm having trouble visualizing how this will work. Do people still create their own tables with automatch, or does automatch create the game for them? If people create tables, how does automatch decide whose table to use? Or is there a dichotomy between automatch hosts and automatch joiners and you choose which to be?

I think we should talk about this before (or concurrently with) talking about being able to play hidden sets of 10 in casual, etc. As it stands I can't really formulate opinions about that stuff without knowing the framework.
Someone is hosting a game. That's part of the premise currently; they host a game and you play with their cards. I was imagining that that would stay true, but uh that's worth thinking about, why would it. There are people who want to play, they have the things they care about (I want a 3-player pro game), why not just match them up? Having a host however is tied to "and you play with their cards." And you want to be able to host in order to do specific things, I want to play this particular set of 10. So okay for the moment let's say, there is a host.

So there are two sets of information - preferences for games, which might change from moment to moment - I want a 3-player pro game - and more specific stuff you get to pick when hosting - let's play these specific 10.

You either host a game or click "match me." If you host you pick whatever's in the hosting-specific set of information and the game is generated and you wait to see if someone joins it. If you click "match me" it looks for a game matching your requirements and adds you to it if it finds one. Obv. if you are tired of waiting for joiners/matches you can switch.

Aha, wait. If you click "match me" it can also just match you with another person who clicked "match me." I mean we have good defaults for the additional hosting-based information. I am thinking "hosting" only makes sense for special stuff.

So it's like this (in this imagined plan that follows, ugh). You pick a set of things you want out of your game, you click ready. You can just get matched vs. someone that matches. Or you can be more specific as a special thing, in which case you host a game and people can get matched to it.

The existing list of unstarted/started games has like no value here. If you want a 4-player game and only 3 have joined, you want to see that, but that's it. I guess if you are having trouble getting matched you want to see what people are asking for, although that could be a chart, I mean they will be vanishing as you look at them.

What might the options be? Default *'d for when no-one cares; "don't care" is the actual default selection.
- pro / *casual / don't care
- *rated / unrated / don't care
- minimum number of expansions (*0)
- minimum number of players (*2)
- maximum number of players (*6)
- minimum rating for opponents (*0)
- maximum rating for opponents (*max)
- maximum opponent quit% (*100)
- find opponents from friend-list only
- maximum number of selected cards by host (*1) [if casual or relevant to pro]
- let host pick expansions (*yes) [if casual or relevant to pro]
- *exclude cards we all hate-list / exclude cards any of us hate-list [if casual or this is also part of pro]
- card selection type [if casual or to the degree this is part of pro]
-- *random from available expansions [incl. main set obv.]
-- random from two available expansions plus promos (counting expansions as published, not half-sets)
-- random recommended set doable with available expansions [including one hand-picked by a host]
-- don't care

Special options for hosting:
- ability to request particular opponents (for people who just want to play together)
- pick expansion for particular slot
- pick card for particular slot
- pick a recommended set
- visible card list [if casual]
- pick starting player [when also picking particular opponents]

edit: had too many asterisks and a missing don't care
edit: added "let host pick expansions;" let chosen recommended set match random one
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 04:50:47 pm by Donald X. »
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2014, 07:56:21 pm »
+2

I am not sure what you are showing me here except a fairly interesting* kingdom worth playing a few times and an opponent who has no idea how to play with or against Goons. Maybe roy let it go 3 turns too long because he enjoys racking up those Goons points in a game he was essentially playing solitaire? This is hardly an egregious abuse. 
He is showing you someone who played the same set of 10 over and over with different opponents - further in the thread you'll see http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/logsearch?p1name=roy+rogers&p1score=any&p2name=&startdate=08%2F05%2F2012&enddate=02%2F18%2F2014&supply=Nobles&nonsupply=&rating=any&pcount=any&colony=any&bot=false&shelters=any&guest=false&minturns=&maxturns=&quit=false&resign=any&submitted=true&offset=0

I think obv. that player was trying to get high Goons scores; I am not so sure he was trying to prey on people. He may just really enjoy Goons.
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blueblimp

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2014, 12:30:31 am »
+6

I like the idea of always-on unlimited mutual veto. So if I (for example) don't want to play with Rebuild and play somebody else who feels the same way, then we won't play with Rebuild. If my opponent doesn't have Rebuild on his/her list, we might play with it, and I'm OK with that. Because the veto is mutual, there's no need for any checkbox either (because I can just leave my veto list empty if I want to opt out), which makes the UI simpler. Also, no need to limit the number of cards on the list, since if my opponent and I agree on a dozen cards we don't want to play with, well why not?
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bardo

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2014, 04:02:18 am »
0

Blueblimp's idea (perhaps it was also stated previously) does seem like one of the simplest ways to go about it. Perhaps it could be unlimited for casual and pro could still be full random or have a banlist that's limited to 1-3 cards.
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Davio

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2014, 05:34:04 am »
0

I think giving players options with default settings is a nice solution.

I would probably always pick:
- don't care (yes, I like playing casual as much as I do pro, even though I have quite a decent pro rating :))
- *rated
- minimum number of expansions: 2
- minimum number of players: 2
- maximum number of players: 2
- minimum rating for opponents: 0
- maximum rating for opponents max
- maximum opponent quit% 100
- maximum number of selected cards by host: 0
exclude cards any of us hate-list (I don't mind if someone else hate-lists, but I probably wouldn't)
- card selection type
-- *random from all cards

When I play on Goko, I'm mostly just looking for some quick games to kill some time and relax, not necessarily searching out those couple of pros that are above me so I can (try to) increase my rating.
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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2014, 07:35:05 am »
0

I like the idea of always-on unlimited mutual veto. So if I (for example) don't want to play with Rebuild and play somebody else who feels the same way, then we won't play with Rebuild. If my opponent doesn't have Rebuild on his/her list, we might play with it, and I'm OK with that. Because the veto is mutual, there's no need for any checkbox either (because I can just leave my veto list empty if I want to opt out), which makes the UI simpler. Also, no need to limit the number of cards on the list, since if my opponent and I agree on a dozen cards we don't want to play with, well why not?

because that would really be cheating on the system. imagine if you put half of all cards on there. well, maybe your opponent only has a few, then it's fine. but what if your opponent did it like you, then there's a good chance for a mutually banned ~150 cards. or what if you put all cards on there except for your favorites? why not, your opponent will have lots of them missing on his list after all. what if everyone starts doing that?

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2014, 09:22:31 am »
0

I like the idea of always-on unlimited mutual veto. So if I (for example) don't want to play with Rebuild and play somebody else who feels the same way, then we won't play with Rebuild. If my opponent doesn't have Rebuild on his/her list, we might play with it, and I'm OK with that. Because the veto is mutual, there's no need for any checkbox either (because I can just leave my veto list empty if I want to opt out), which makes the UI simpler. Also, no need to limit the number of cards on the list, since if my opponent and I agree on a dozen cards we don't want to play with, well why not?

because that would really be cheating on the system. imagine if you put half of all cards on there. well, maybe your opponent only has a few, then it's fine. but what if your opponent did it like you, then there's a good chance for a mutually banned ~150 cards. or what if you put all cards on there except for your favorites? why not, your opponent will have lots of them missing on his list after all. what if everyone starts doing that?
Then why not let them do it? What's the problem?
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rrenaud

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2014, 09:48:05 am »
0

I think he misread or misunderstood the mutual part.

EG, blueblimp is suggesting that cards are automatically rejected if ALL players veto them, not if ANY player vetos them.
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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2014, 10:39:24 am »
+1

I think he misread or misunderstood the mutual part.

EG, blueblimp is suggesting that cards are automatically rejected if ALL players veto them, not if ANY player vetos them.

i know, i didn't missread it.

Quote
Then why not let them do it? What's the problem?
because that's a really unfair advantage over players who don't ban anything. if nothing is stopping you from putting all but your favorite 20 cards on the list, whenever two players who do this meet, you might have games with a pool of less than fourty cards. i really think that shouldn't be possible in pro mode.

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2014, 10:50:36 am »
0

because that's a really unfair advantage over players who don't ban anything. if nothing is stopping you from putting all but your favorite 20 cards on the list, whenever two players who do this meet, you might have games with a pool of less than fourty cards. i really think that shouldn't be possible in pro mode.
How is that an advantage and how is that at all unfair? Is it also unfair if I play over 9000 games with 10 of my favorite cards IRL and then play pro mode against people who haven't banned anything?
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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2014, 10:55:58 am »
0

because that's a really unfair advantage over players who don't ban anything. if nothing is stopping you from putting all but your favorite 20 cards on the list, whenever two players who do this meet, you might have games with a pool of less than fourty cards. i really think that shouldn't be possible in pro mode.
How is that an advantage and how is that at all unfair? Is it also unfair if I play over 9000 games with 10 of my favorite cards IRL and then play pro mode against people who haven't banned anything?

uh... no, because the 9000 games don't influence your ranking, they're just practise. that's why i said "it shouldn't be possible in pro mode"; you obviously can do that in casual mode if you want to.

how is it unfair? man, in the last thread there were people saying they don't want to have 3 cards banned because that would "create different experiences for players" or something, when in fact pro mode should be alike for everyone. now we got a mode where you could have several hundred cards removed, and you're asking why it's unfair?

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #70 on: March 25, 2014, 11:21:56 am »
0

because that's a really unfair advantage over players who don't ban anything. if nothing is stopping you from putting all but your favorite 20 cards on the list, whenever two players who do this meet, you might have games with a pool of less than fourty cards. i really think that shouldn't be possible in pro mode.
How is that an advantage and how is that at all unfair? Is it also unfair if I play over 9000 games with 10 of my favorite cards IRL and then play pro mode against people who haven't banned anything?

uh... no, because the 9000 games don't influence your ranking, they're just practise. that's why i said "it shouldn't be possible in pro mode"; you obviously can do that in casual mode if you want to.

how is it unfair? man, in the last thread there were people saying they don't want to have 3 cards banned because that would "create different experiences for players" or something, when in fact pro mode should be alike for everyone. now we got a mode where you could have several hundred cards removed, and you're asking why it's unfair?

But the only situation in which a ton of cards is actually banned is if all players in a game have all those cards on their lists. I don't see this being significantly different than all players just not owning those cards. The only difference is that you can "not own" individual expansion cards rather than entire sets. It's like if you bought Prosperity and then put your King's Courts in a safe. Unless you're going to insist that you need to own all the sets to even play Pro mode, I don't see how having a "mutually banned" list is any worse than selectively buying sets.
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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2014, 11:26:59 am »
0

uh... no, because the 9000 games don't influence your ranking, they're just practise. that's why i said "it shouldn't be possible in pro mode"; you obviously can do that in casual mode if you want to.

how is it unfair? man, in the last thread there were people saying they don't want to have 3 cards banned because that would "create different experiences for players" or something, when in fact pro mode should be alike for everyone. now we got a mode where you could have several hundred cards removed, and you're asking why it's unfair?
It would be unfair because I could ban cards that I'm bad at. If only cards that both players are bad at are being banned, it's not unfair.
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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2014, 11:49:50 am »
+1

uh... no, because the 9000 games don't influence your ranking, they're just practise. that's why i said "it shouldn't be possible in pro mode"; you obviously can do that in casual mode if you want to.

how is it unfair? man, in the last thread there were people saying they don't want to have 3 cards banned because that would "create different experiences for players" or something, when in fact pro mode should be alike for everyone. now we got a mode where you could have several hundred cards removed, and you're asking why it's unfair?
It would be unfair because I could ban cards that I'm bad at. If only cards that both players are bad at are being banned, it's not unfair.
with this logic you could also allow players to play tetris instead of dominion if both choose to, cause, you know, both players have the same experience, so it's fair. the point is that, if player A and B have lots of cards banned, players C and D don't and they play A vs B and C vs D, then you have different players having significantly different experiences and yet are both placed on the same leaderbord, as are the tetris guys.

Quote
But the only situation in which a ton of cards is actually banned is if all players in a game have all those cards on their lists. I don't see this being significantly different than all players just not owning those cards. The only difference is that you can "not own" individual expansion cards rather than entire sets. It's like if you bought Prosperity and then put your King's Courts in a safe. Unless you're going to insist that you need to own all the sets to even play Pro mode, I don't see how having a "mutually banned" list is any worse than selectively buying sets.

well - yea, that's precisely the difference. it's a pretty big difference though, only choosing sets doesn't give you nearly the same amount of freedom, unless you happen to dislike all cards of a specific set. It's, uh, not like I have such a big problem with this, but I expect others to, I kind of just brought up the argument that I knew was going to be made eventually. I don't like this concept for a different reason, which is that it doesn't really do anything for me. My problem is not that I like some cards a little bit more than others; I just dislike very few specific cards, and I don't want to play with them no matter what, so i prefer the "ban 3 cards, don't play with them ever" version.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 12:25:35 pm by silverspawn »
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SCSN

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2014, 12:10:06 pm »
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No one in their right mind is going to buy all sets and then put 150 cards on their ban list, and certainly not enough people to affect the integrity of the leaderboard in any way whatsoever. Focus on plausible real-world scenarios, not on abstract and remote hypotheticals that will never in a million years materialize; we're not at a Philosophy faculty, after all :D
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion Online set selection
« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2014, 12:22:51 pm »
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No one in their right mind is going to buy all sets and then put 150 cards on their ban list, and certainly not enough people to affect the integrity of the leaderboard in any way whatsoever. Focus on plausible real-world scenarios, not on abstract and remote hypotheticals that will never in a million years materialize; we're not at a Philosophy faculty, after all :D

uh, why? I mean, in the end it depends on the interface. If you have to drag&drop every card manually, then yes, few people will ban out more than, let's say 20. But if you do it differently, I don't see any reason why splitting 200/5 makes any more sense than splitting 100/100. Saying "I'll play these 200 cards a little bit more often than these 5" isn't any more logical than saying "I prefer this half of all cards over this one". You're going to see the all of the cards anway, it's not like you're just throwing away half of the product you bought. I definitely wasn't trying to theorize stuff that will never happen, i thought it was a legit problem. But, maybe it's not. It also matters how you present the list, people will be less inclined to put half of their cards on it if it reads "ban list"
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 12:24:24 pm by silverspawn »
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