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Nik

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Nik's Dominion Expansion
« on: March 23, 2014, 02:13:14 pm »
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So recently I've been working on a fan expansion (as all Dominion fans are.) So far I have a lot of cards, but I'd like to improve these 12 first. Critiquing would be appreciated! :)

Quote
Tavern-Action-$5
+$2, or at the start of your next turn, +2 cards. Gain a Prize from the Prize pile.
So Cornocupia's 'thing' was Prizes, but they could only be bought with Tournament. Tavern now introduces another way.
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Eldermen-Action-$4
+2 cards +$2
I know Donald has says that all the obvious ideas for cards were either taken or unbalanced, but this one is obvious but yet never official. I imagine Eldermen-BigMoney would be a very powerful combo.
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Town Council-Action-$6
+1 buy. Each Treasure in your hand produces +$1 this turn.
Or, a Coppersmith that doesn't suck!
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Chainmail-Action-Attack-Reaction-$5
Each other player must discard a card costing $4 or more. If they don't or can't, they gain a Curse. When another player plays an Attack against you, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, +2 cards.
Sort of a cross between Secret Chamber and Militia.
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Wiseman-Action-$4
Reveal your hand. If you have no Actions it, +2 cards +$2. Otherwise, for each Action in it, +1 card.
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Relic-Treasure-$7
$3. +1 buy.
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Homeless Shelter-Action-$1
+1 card +2 Actions. Each other player draws a card.
Why not another $1 card, except one that doesn't hurt your deck?
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Residence-Victory-Action-$5
1VP. +2VP.
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Coat of Arms-Treasure-$4
You may trash up to 3 Treasure cards from your hand. For each one you do, +1VP.
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Hobo-Action-Duration-$4
You may or may not discard this card for 5 turns (you may have tokens to represent them.) For each turn it stays in your hand, +1 card +1 action.
An interesting Duration card, don't know if it could work.
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Economist-Action-$3
Gain a Copper, set it aside. You may put it into your hand at any time.
A nice card for when you gets stuck with $7, and could work for a nice, inexpensive Economist-BigMoney combo.
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Jailer-Action-Attack-$3
+1 Action. Each other player gains a Curse.
An inexpensive Curser.

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Qvist

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Re: Nik's Dominion Expansion
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2014, 02:31:41 pm »
+2


Quote
Tavern-Action-$5
+$2, or at the start of your next turn, +2 cards. Gain a Prize from the Prize pile.

This has to be a Duration card and is way too strong. Prizes are super powerful and are supposed to obtain hard. If one opens $5/$2 he can gain a Prize in turn 3 which is basically game over for the opponent.

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Eldermen-Action-$4
+2 cards +$2

Way too strong for its cost. This should cost $6, but at least $5.

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Town Council-Action-$6
+1 buy. Each Treasure in your hand produces +$1 this turn.

I would remove the +Buy because it's then way to easy to make it powerful, but I guess it's fine.

Quote
Chainmail-Action-Attack-Reaction-$5
Each other player must discard a card costing $4 or more. If they don't or can't, they gain a Curse. When another player plays an Attack against you, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, +2 cards.

The reaction part draws your deck because you can reveal Chainmail infinite times. You have to discard this to make it work. "If they don't or can't" isn't needed. Just make it an or-clause: "Each other player gains a Curse or discards a card costing $4 or more." I'm not sure about the power level of this card, but without bonus it seems a little too weak, but I'm really not sure.

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Wiseman-Action-$4
Reveal your hand. If you have no Actions it, +2 cards +$2. Otherwise, for each Action in it, +1 card.

The first part is the same as Eldermen in Big Money, so way too strong. But it's way more interesting. IMO: Make it cost $6 and remove Eldermen.

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Relic-Treasure-$7
$3. +1 buy.

Way too expensive. This would be a fine $5.

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Homeless Shelter-Action-$1
+1 card +2 Actions. Each other player draws a card.

I like it.

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Residence-Victory-Action-$5
1VP. +2VP.

This has the problem of a stalemate in a thin deck, imagine a deck of 2 Kings Courts and 3 Residences, that's 18VPs per turn without ending the game. Monument at least gives you money so that you want to buy stuff.

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Coat of Arms-Treasure-$4
You may trash up to 3 Treasure cards from your hand. For each one you do, +1VP.

Interesting and probably fine strong early game trasher.

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Hobo-Action-Duration-$4
You may or may not discard this card for 5 turns (you may have tokens to represent them.) For each turn it stays in your hand, +1 card +1 action.

Honestly, I'm not sure if I understand that. Do you mean "set aside" instead of "discard"?

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Economist-Action-$3
Gain a Copper, set it aside. You may put it into your hand at any time.

I think you could just use coin tokens for it. Anyway, this is way too weak if you compare it with Candlestick Maker.

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Jailer-Action-Attack-$3
+1 Action. Each other player gains a Curse.

Too strong as you can open double Jailer and can even play them if they collide. Also, it's not really interesting IMO.

AJD

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Re: Nik's Dominion Expansion
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2014, 02:35:25 pm »
0

Quote
Tavern-Action-$5
+$2, or at the start of your next turn, +2 cards. Gain a Prize from the Prize pile.
So Cornocupia's 'thing' was Prizes, but they could only be bought with Tournament. Tavern now introduces another way.

(Should be a Duration; should say "Choose one:".) Isn't this super-overpowered? Prizes are designed to be hard to get.

Quote
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Eldermen-Action-$4
+2 cards +$2
I know Donald has says that all the obvious ideas for cards were either taken or unbalanced, but this one is obvious but yet never official. I imagine Eldermen-BigMoney would be a very powerful combo.

This probably has to cost $5 or $6.

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Town Council-Action-$6
+1 buy. Each Treasure in your hand produces +$1 this turn.
Or, a Coppersmith that doesn't suck!

More like a terminal Bank. It should probably be either "produces an additional $1"; or even "While this is in play, when you play a Treasure, +$1".

Quote
Quote
Chainmail-Action-Attack-Reaction-$5
Each other player must discard a card costing $4 or more. If they don't or can't, they gain a Curse. When another player plays an Attack against you, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, +2 cards.
Sort of a cross between Secret Chamber and Militia.

Do you want this to be "may discard a card costing $4 or more"? If not, then you need an "…or reveals a hand containing no such cards". The attack is probably overpowered.

The reaction doesn't work as intended, since the same Reaction can be used multiple times against a single Attack; you could just draw your deck with it.

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Wiseman-Action-$4
Reveal your hand. If you have no Actions it, +2 cards +$2. Otherwise, for each Action in it, +1 card.

Why would you buy any other Actions with this in your deck?

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Relic-Treasure-$7
$3. +1 buy.

Probably not a good idea for the same reason Silver + bonus isn't a good idea at $4—not interestingly different from the basic card.
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AJD

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Re: Nik's Dominion Expansion
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2014, 02:36:59 pm »
+1

Quote
Relic-Treasure-$7
$3. +1 buy.

Way too expensive. This would be a fine $5.

Um, it's strictly better than Gold.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Nik's Dominion Expansion
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2014, 02:41:19 pm »
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It takes up an action.
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Nik

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Re: Nik's Dominion Expansion
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2014, 02:42:39 pm »
+1

No, Relic is a Treasure card. Unless you're talking about something else?
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Qvist

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Re: Nik's Dominion Expansion
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2014, 02:48:28 pm »
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Quote
Relic-Treasure-$7
$3. +1 buy.

Way too expensive. This would be a fine $5.

Um, it's strictly better than Gold.

I didn't see that it's a Treasure card. Then it's just not that interesting I think.

silverspawn

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Re: Nik's Dominion Expansion
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2014, 04:07:37 pm »
+1

conserning eldermen, you might find this interesting

Quote from: silverspawn
Is there a reason why every action card that draws and has +$ in dominion is non-terminal? In your secret history, you said at one point that you made a chart of all of the combinations of pluses to possibly consider. So, why has no bonus like +2 cards +2$, or any variation of it ever made it?

    The only exception to this rule is mercenary, but, well he only draws if you give him something to trash first, so he doesn't really draw. Trusty steed and pawn can choose to do it, and it doesn't seem so bad.


Quote from: Donald X
One of the cards from the early days was "+2 Cards +$2" for $5. You can see it in the outtakes article on the front page (Highway). For a while that card seemed like it would make it, but it's strong and just not that interesting. At the same time I wanted conditional cards that were in that territory, e.g. Tribute, and the vanilla card makes them look a lot worse.

Things like "+1 Card +$2" and "+2 Cards +$1" never sounded appealing at all. It just seems wonky; surely I can commit to the full +$3 or +3 Cards. "+1 Card +$1" is similar. I don't see what I get out of it, it just takes an extra line. I'd rather have "+2 Cards" or "+$2."

The general exception of course if when the "+1 Card" is really part of a "+1 Card +1 Action." Then the card replaces itself, that's the concept there. And if the rest of the card gains $ that's fine.

popsofctown

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Re: Nik's Dominion Expansion
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2014, 05:53:19 pm »
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Donald is kind of admitting that 5$ elderman wouldn't be that bad by saying it almost made it, so it should be ok for a fan set.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 05:54:28 pm by popsofctown »
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silverspawn

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Re: Nik's Dominion Expansion
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2014, 05:56:49 pm »
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Donald is kind of admitting that 5$ elderman wouldn't be that bad by saying it almost made it, so it should be ok for a fan set.

well it depends on your ambitions. i didn't say that it was a bad idea though.

eHalcyon

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Re: Nik's Dominion Expansion
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2014, 11:57:29 pm »
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Word of warning, this is mostly negative feedback.  Don't let that discourage you though!  I always like seeing what kind of fan cards other players come up with, even if I end up critical of them.  Thank-you for sharing yours. :)

First, an overall thought to consider.  You say that you are working on a fan expansion.  If you intend for it to be an actual expansion rather than just a collection of fan cards, then you should try to come up with a core concept or theme around which you can build the set.  Official expansion-specific concepts should be kept to a minimum if they are used at all.  I wouldn't touch the prizes (which are very much a Cornucopia-only thing) and I would be wary of adding new Durations.  I would shy away from anything involving coin tokens or victory tokens because those are specific to Guilds and Prosperity.


Tavern -- This is far too powerful.  Prizes can't be handed out so easily.  This is swingier than Tournament, which is already among the swingiest.

Eldermen -- should cost more, but otherwise not so interesting.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, but yeah.

Town Council -- The wording doesn't work well.  "Each Treasure in your hand" does not allow for accountability.  What if I draw more Treasure cards after playing Town Council?  It should be rephrased as "Each Treasure you play this turn".  This still allows for potential confusion with Counterfeit if casual players aren't careful.  Perhaps the bigger issue is that the concept already exists in the form of Bank, which has a more elegant wording.  Maybe an action version of Bank would be OK, but it does lower interest (pun not intended ;) ).

Chainmail -- This kind of discard attack is already extremely powerful.  It's almost as strong as Pillage, which is so powerful that it had to be made into a one-shot.  The discard on this is unbounded which means it has the potential to pin a player.  And then it Curses on top of that?  That's just too much for one attack.  As for the reaction, you need to add a clause to prevent it from drawing your deck.  In Dominion, reactions can be revealed as many times as you want.  This is why reactions are either idempotent or they are discarded or set aside when used.  But if you do that with Chainmail, the reaction is basically the same as Horse Traders' reaction. 

On wording, if the discard is mandatory (you say "must") then you need a hand-revealing clause for accountability (see: Cutpurse).  You can omit the "must".  If the text doesn't make it clear that the action is optional, then it is mandatory by default.  And the Curse part should be, "If he does not, he gains a Curse."  If a player cannot do something, he does not do it.  Saying both is redundant. ;)

Looking at it from a design perspective, perhaps the reaction was intended to be a counter to its own attack.  Even so, that doesn't justify the strength of the attack.  Reactions aren't 100% reliable and you don't want to force players into buying a specific card every time it shows up.  One final thing to consider is that people tend not to like attacks that hurt others without giving any benefit of their own (e.g. Saboteur) even if they are strong (e.g. Sea Hag).  You can do it, of course, but it's something to think about.

(PPE: @Qvist, your or-clause isn't the same.  In the original, you don't get a choice.)

Wiseman -- Too powerful for $4.  Needs to be at least $5, I think.  The first possibility really pushes a BM strategy.  The second possibility is rarely more than a consolation prize.  Very odd, but might be interesting.

Relic -- Probably works, but it's just not that interesting.  It could probably be $6, maybe even $5 since it's terminal.

Homeless Shelter -- Could work.  Not sure about it though.  It's a village, which means that it will either be terrible on the board (because playing it will be better for the opponent than for your own engine, given how many you'd be playing in a turn) or it'll be broken good with the price on a board with a discard attack, thus giving a large first player advantage if an engine is at all viable.  Despite these potential pitfalls, I think it's worth testing.    Side note - I'm not sure if the name is anachronistic, but it's clever.

Residence -- Is the +VP for victory tokens?  Too easy to abuse and get into a stalemate with it.  The same thing could be said about Monument, but it mitigates the problem by providing money to encourage you to buy something.

(PPE: pretty much what Qvist said.)

Coat of Arms -- If it's a treasure type, how many coins does it give?  At $4, it needs to be $0 or $1 at most.  Seems a bit on the strong side, but might be OK.  This would make more sense as a terminal action though.

Hobo -- Wha?

Economist -- Extremely weak.  Gaining copper is something you rarely ever want, and you certainly don't want to use a terminal action for so little value.  The general concept is already covered by coin tokens.

Jailer -- With a few possible exceptions, the correct opening will almost always be double Jailer if possible.  The curses will run out extremely quickly and then the rest of the game will be an unfun slog.

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NoMoreFun

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Re: Nik's Dominion Expansion
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2014, 07:07:39 am »
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Homeless Shelter is very weak, but the idea is interesting given how much the advantage would stack, especially since you'd be playing a lot of them. You could probably make it +2 Cards, +2 Actions; this would make the card a wash except for the extra action (which puts it in the same category as Village), but the opportunity cost of getting one would make it ok to price at $2 (or $1, which is practically very similar).

However think about the other $2 cards that don't hurt your deck. Vagrant and Pearl Diver are very, very weak, Pawn is only useful if you don't use it as a cantrip, while Hamlet is the exception as one of the best cards in the game, although technically you're hurting yourself to get use out of it. The wording you have there may very well be fine, especially if it's $1.

Not much to add on any other cards that others haven't already said.
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Nik

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Re: Nik's Dominion Expansion
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2014, 08:31:00 pm »
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Thanks for your feedback, but as Ehalycon pointed out, this isn't a fan expansion, and you're right: it's not. So I've made a full one that actaully has a theme, and I've posted it under Dominion: Renaissance. Until then, unless anyone objects, I'm deleting this thread.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Nik's Dominion Expansion
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2014, 08:54:01 pm »
+2

Deleting the thread (and along with it, the posts of feedback people were nice enough to give you) seems pretty disrespectful to their time and efforts to me. You certainly don't have to continue using this thread, but there's less than no reason to delete it.
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