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Author Topic: How would you play this kingdom?  (Read 4537 times)

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luser

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How would you play this kingdom?
« on: March 22, 2014, 09:50:21 pm »
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Beggar, Feodum, Gardens, Herald, Trader, Duke, Rabble, Goons, Bank, King's Court
Hi, I played this kingdom with platinum and 3 players, and won mostly by luck on turn 28. There are combos for every alt-vp strategy so what would you choose? Also how would strategy change for two players?
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SCSN

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Re: How would you play this kingdom?
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2014, 09:59:49 pm »
+4

28 turns? This game should last like 10 turns with 3 players :D Probably 3-piling the Beggars, Gardens and Coppers/Estates/Duchies.

With 2 players all alt-VP strategies are going to lose very hard to KC-Rabble-Herald-Goons.

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WanderingWinder

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Re: How would you play this kingdom?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2014, 10:52:31 pm »
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With 2 players all alt-VP strategies are going to lose very hard to KC-Rabble-Herald-Goons.

I don't think I agree with this.

Edit: Also, I'm not totally convinced that it make sense that the engine is so good in 2p but can't win in 2p. If two guys go engine 3p, it takes longer for the last guy to end the game... shouldn't the engine still win then? I mean, you can't get like 6 KC, 6 Goons, 6 Rabble, but somehow I don't think the game is lasting long enough for that anyway?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 10:54:27 pm by WanderingWinder »
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dondon151

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Re: How would you play this kingdom?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2014, 11:03:05 pm »
+1

I don't think I agree with this.

Rabble destroys non-engine alt-VP strategies.
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DG

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Re: How would you play this kingdom?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2014, 11:20:30 pm »
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Most alt vp strategies change drastically in three player games. There's a big difference between one person taking 12 gardens for themselves, two players sharing the 12 gardens and running out the copper and beggar piles fast too, and all three players taking the same strategy for an extremely fast three pile finish. Similarly if all three players try to build a herald engine then the heralds will run out and everyone will have to rush for plan B. You also don't necessarily know which situation you will be in when you start the game. This is why three player games, in my opinion, need extra skills in following the game play that are not needed two player.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: How would you play this kingdom?
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2014, 11:43:32 pm »
+1

I don't think I agree with this.

Rabble destroys non-engine alt-VP strategies.
I actually know what Rabble does.
And I understand that the engine eventually has tremendous potential - I just also see that it is very, very slow. Add in any trashing or something like warehouse, cellar (I'd say any sifting, but I don't know if e.g. cartographer is up to the task), and I agree with you, it's clear. And maybe the engine is indeed best here - it wouldn't surprise me terribly. I'm just not entirely convinced. I'd definitely be down to test it.

Jdaki

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Re: How would you play this kingdom?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2014, 06:08:52 pm »
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How do we feel Beggars reaction affects the attacks? The first few rabbles will only leave one green on top and the game might be over before KC rabble comes along? Beggar Trader is pretty awesome too! Opening Beggar -trader might be my choice here- the goons engine is obviously viable, but no trashing makes it a little slow? You need KC Herald for the actions too, only +buy is in the Goons, which also only provider of the +coins... beggar guy might have won it by then?
Lovely kingdom though.
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SCSN

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Re: How would you play this kingdom?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2014, 06:47:45 pm »
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There's Trader for trashing, which is pretty good when you KC it.

Here is the Beggar-Gardens vs. engine game I just played. The Gardens player has no way to end the game and once the engine gets going (ensuring consistency via Herald overpays) he has 3 green cards in hand each turn. It's just hopeless.
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JW

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Re: How would you play this kingdom?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2014, 07:03:41 pm »
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Here is the Beggar-Gardens vs. engine game I just played. The Gardens player has no way to end the game and once the engine gets going (ensuring consistency via Herald overpays) he has 3 green cards in hand each turn. It's just hopeless.

Side note: can you explain how you play both sides of a game with what is presumably one account? I know that Goko's Secret Chamber room lets you play solitaire games, but I don't see how to play both sides of a game in Secret Chamber. Thanks.
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SCSN

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Re: How would you play this kingdom?
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2014, 07:07:21 pm »
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Open a second browser tab and just login with the same account, then create a game in tab 1 and join it in tab 2.
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Jdaki

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Re: How would you play this kingdom?
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2014, 07:10:59 pm »
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Yeah I just tried engine vs Beggar- Trader -feodum, and yeah despite pretty bad start from the engine, and really quite big feodum(s) the engine is too powerful
http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140323/log.50d1a9b7e4b00e9b1242089f.1395616045007.txt
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WanderingWinder

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Re: How would you play this kingdom?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2014, 07:11:30 pm »
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There's Trader for trashing, which is pretty good when you KC it.

Here is the Beggar-Gardens vs. engine game I just played. The Gardens player has no way to end the game and once the engine gets going (ensuring consistency via Herald overpays) he has 3 green cards in hand each turn. It's just hopeless.
Thing is, you really need to get more beggars than that early on. You're going to want them eventually, you might as well get them early to ensure more consistency (and if they collide, bonus if they attack you). Furthermore, the endgame plan really ought to be buy herald, overpay when you can, topdeck beggar. The piles you attack are gardens, herald, and copper. You actually don't need to rush into the gardens at all, probably you poach some heralds earlier than gardens even, really. Attacking the heralds hurts the engine's endgame, attacking the coppers hurts their points possibility (if you run them out, that is potential goons points - admittedly this won't come up all that often, at least where it's still relevant. But it helps). And by getting more beggars early, you get more consistency, more cards, more points, and are less screwed up by Rabble chains. Basically, the log really doesn't convince me. It looks like things might actually be really close (well, no game will end close on points, but on turns). I'm still quite interested in playing this board.

WanderingWinder

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Re: How would you play this kingdom?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2014, 07:13:58 pm »
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How do we feel Beggars reaction affects the attacks? The first few rabbles will only leave one green on top and the game might be over before KC rabble comes along? Beggar Trader is pretty awesome too! Opening Beggar -trader might be my choice here- the goons engine is obviously viable, but no trashing makes it a little slow? You need KC Herald for the actions too, only +buy is in the Goons, which also only provider of the +coins... beggar guy might have won it by then?
Lovely kingdom though.
You react beggar to the attacks when they collide, not otherwise.
I'm really unconvinced by Beggar-Trader, because while it can be really nice when they collide, your deck fills up with little treasures so fast, they won't collide nearly often enough. Besides, those silvers aren't really doing that much more for you than coppers are.

SCSN

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Re: How would you play this kingdom?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2014, 07:14:35 pm »
+1

I'm still quite interested in playing this board.

I'm in Outpost.
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Jdaki

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Re: How would you play this kingdom?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2014, 07:52:12 pm »
+1

Feodum costs same as gardens, but only needs 3 silvers for 1vp- thats one collision beggar-trader, or trader-silver. It's three beggar players to get 10 cards in deck. The problem is ramp up time I guess- the alt-vp needs to beat goons not on points but on turns as you point out. Still, there are less silvers than coppers... hmm it is an interesting set!
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WanderingWinder

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Re: How would you play this kingdom?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2014, 08:23:05 pm »
+4

Feodum costs same as gardens, but only needs 3 silvers for 1vp- thats one collision beggar-trader, or trader-silver. It's three beggar players to get 10 cards in deck. The problem is ramp up time I guess- the alt-vp needs to beat goons not on points but on turns as you point out. Still, there are less silvers than coppers... hmm it is an interesting set!
Right, except it's going to be really hard to get these collisions, plus you then don't have that money in hand to buy the feodum the same turn you are gaining the silvers. So it's incredibly slow.

I played it with SCSN a few times, and the engine is definitely winning here. The thing about his initial log is that the engine was actually getting pretty bad luck - seems to be like 3-4 turns faster on average.
So it's not absurdly lopsided, but I would suspect the engine is going to win 90-some-odd percent of the time here.
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