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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards  (Read 76990 times)

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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #100 on: April 01, 2014, 02:14:03 pm »
0

Ironmonger is where it deserves to be, but Bridge is overrated. And, why is Tournament ranked #2?
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #101 on: April 01, 2014, 03:00:23 pm »
+1

And, why is Tournament ranked #2?

That IS ridiculous. It should be #1.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #102 on: April 01, 2014, 04:17:45 pm »
+1

Markow, I think it is misleading to state that Sea Hag is so skippable that even the lowly Lookout is enough to pass it up.  Sea Hag is the prototypical example of where Lookout shines.  That and Ghost Ship, perhaps.
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funcrusher

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #103 on: April 01, 2014, 05:34:13 pm »
+1

I'm confused, can someone explain why Envoy is so much lower than Smithy?  It seems like there are many situations where Envoy is better, yet few where Smithy would be a clear cut winner. Am I missing something?
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #104 on: April 01, 2014, 05:37:05 pm »
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Markow, I think it is misleading to state that Sea Hag is so skippable that even the lowly Lookout is enough to pass it up.  Sea Hag is the prototypical example of where Lookout shines.  That and Ghost Ship, perhaps.

Eh, I'm not so jazzed about Lookout when I'm playing 3-card hands.
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jsh357

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #105 on: April 01, 2014, 05:38:53 pm »
0

I'm confused, can someone explain why Envoy is so much lower than Smithy?  It seems like there are many situations where Envoy is better, yet few where Smithy would be a clear cut winner. Am I missing something?

In essence, giving the opponent a choice of what you discard matters a lot of the time.  Smithy tends to be useful in more decks.  That said, I think they are too far apart on the list myself. Had them at 20 and 22. 

Speaking of which, I just noticed I had Quarry at 21, which is totally not where I put it so I guess the program messed up on me after all.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #106 on: April 01, 2014, 08:33:22 pm »
+1

Markow, I think it is misleading to state that Sea Hag is so skippable that even the lowly Lookout is enough to pass it up.  Sea Hag is the prototypical example of where Lookout shines.  That and Ghost Ship, perhaps.

Eh, I'm not so jazzed about Lookout when I'm playing 3-card hands.

One way to combat Ghost Ship is to build a slim, reliable engine.  Lookout is still not the best trasher, but it is certainly better against Ghost Ship.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #107 on: April 01, 2014, 08:38:13 pm »
0

I'm confused, can someone explain why Envoy is so much lower than Smithy?  It seems like there are many situations where Envoy is better, yet few where Smithy would be a clear cut winner. Am I missing something?

I ranked Envoy higher.
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #108 on: April 02, 2014, 11:20:48 am »
0

Sea Hag is very good, but not as good as Tournament or Jack. Wandering Minstrel is not that good and I'm not even convinced that it's better than Worker's Village or Plaza, and Young Witch should probably be better than Ironmonger. Also, Caravan is not better than Marauder. Other than that, I pretty much agree with this list.
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KingZog3

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #109 on: April 02, 2014, 01:34:12 pm »
0

Sea Hag is very good, but not as good as Tournament or Jack. Wandering Minstrel is not that good and I'm not even convinced that it's better than Worker's Village or Plaza, and Young Witch should probably be better than Ironmonger. Also, Caravan is not better than Marauder. Other than that, I pretty much agree with this list.

If you can build a reliable engine with trashing, yes Worker's Village is better. But Wandering Minstrel can make engines happen with even the lightest trashing, or non at all sometimes. With WM, it's nearly impossible not to have an engine running quickly.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #110 on: April 02, 2014, 02:32:08 pm »
0

yea, man, wm is ridiculous. it's like a cartographer and a village combined. in an engine, a hand with 2 wm is almost guaranteed not to be dead, and it helps so much wth cycling. i even think #7 is too low, it's way better than wv

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #111 on: April 06, 2014, 08:51:13 am »
+3

SCSN

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #112 on: April 06, 2014, 09:13:39 am »
0

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c4master

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #113 on: April 06, 2014, 11:32:34 am »
+1

Can anyone explain to me, why Conspirator is so high?
It seems to be a "win more" card. Obviously, it's only some kind of payload to an engine. But if your engine works with conspirators, it would also work without them, or am I wrong? Plus, they still need a gaining/buy/attack to be able to catch up later on. And since you don't want your stop cards like Coppers and estates, you probably need at least decent trashing. I can't see how this card changes a game or makes me go engine where I wouldn't do it otherwise. Something like Warehouse/Worker's Villag/Conspirator must be kind of an edge case, or am I totally wrong here?
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silverspawn

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #114 on: April 06, 2014, 04:08:45 pm »
+1

Can anyone explain to me, why Conspirator is so high?
It seems to be a "win more" card. Obviously, it's only some kind of payload to an engine. But if your engine works with conspirators, it would also work without them, or am I wrong? Plus, they still need a gaining/buy/attack to be able to catch up later on. And since you don't want your stop cards like Coppers and estates, you probably need at least decent trashing. I can't see how this card changes a game or makes me go engine where I wouldn't do it otherwise. Something like Warehouse/Worker's Villag/Conspirator must be kind of an edge case, or am I totally wrong here?

you're thinking way too complicated. there are a lot of boards on which you play 2+ action cards every turn, and on each of these boards conspirator is an extremely cost efficient card, basically a grand market for $4. so it's good.

markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #115 on: April 06, 2014, 05:13:09 pm »
0

Can anyone explain to me, why Conspirator is so high?
It seems to be a "win more" card. Obviously, it's only some kind of payload to an engine. But if your engine works with conspirators, it would also work without them, or am I wrong? Plus, they still need a gaining/buy/attack to be able to catch up later on. And since you don't want your stop cards like Coppers and estates, you probably need at least decent trashing. I can't see how this card changes a game or makes me go engine where I wouldn't do it otherwise. Something like Warehouse/Worker's Villag/Conspirator must be kind of an edge case, or am I totally wrong here?

you're thinking way too complicated. there are a lot of boards on which you play 2+ action cards every turn, and on each of these boards conspirator is an extremely cost efficient card, basically a grand market for $4. so it's good.
Conspirator doesn't have to be the star of the show. It let's you add money to a deck without reducing the decks reliability by all that much.

It's harder to have a deck centered around Conspirator, but again you don't need to go for such a deck on every board with Conspirator.

That said, I don't see it being as strong as I used to think it was.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #116 on: April 06, 2014, 05:14:57 pm »
+1

I'd like to add, however, that Grand Market without the +Buy is missing a key part of Grand Market's power: end game control.
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c4master

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #117 on: April 07, 2014, 10:15:34 am »
0

I'd like to add, however, that Grand Market without the +Buy is missing a key part of Grand Market's power: end game control.
That's exactly what I mean. Plus, a grand market can work on it's own. Two Conspirators in your hand without a village/cantrip is just one dead card.

Ok, so Conspirator is pretty useful on many boards without being the key card. So I guess, it's a little bit overrated. Is that ok?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 10:17:55 am by c4master »
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Lekkit

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #118 on: April 07, 2014, 10:29:47 am »
0

Conspirator is that good in engines. Outside of them, it's a card that might work, depending on the board.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #119 on: April 07, 2014, 08:31:27 pm »
0

You know, I won't complain at Conspirator being 20th. I had it a bit lower, but it's still a good card. Great with Treasury.
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7string

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #120 on: April 18, 2014, 04:26:19 am »
+1

Reflections and lessons learned on $4 cards.

(see my comments on the $1-$2 cards for my process of analyzing my rankings versus the new 2014 consensus rankings)
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10578.msg368900#msg368900

The $4 cards for me were a real eye-opener in how different my rankings were than the new 2014 rankings.  I had more deviation in the $4 cards than I did in the $1-$2 or $3, or even the $5 cards as of today.  I’m still trying to digest this, but I’m thinking it may indicate I have a bit to learn on priorities of buys for early to mid game cards.  In some cases though I think I just had a hard time ranking the $4 cards appropriately.

My top 3 most overrated cards were:
Taxman - I had it in the middle of the pack.  On further consideration it belongs lower, but I think it is better than #45.
Death Cart - Yeah…I probably overrated it, and those ruins are bad, but sometimes the quick $5 spend is just so helpful…
Walled Village - Again I probably overrated it a few spots, but I still see all of the villages as enablers which are critical to making the engines work since a terminal draw without a village is an engine stopper.

My top 3 most underrated cards were:
Monument - A real surprise to me as I like the card, and use it a lot as an opener on a 4/3 draw.  I just felt there were some other stronger cards in mid to late game.  I would probably change my ranking on this if I were to do it again.
Ironworks - Another card I buy a lot…just a matter of how I ranked them.
Quarry - I have played a lot of Prosperity since it is one of the 4 sets I own IRL.  I certainly have used it a lot, but just didn’t consider it quite as much of a game changer as some of the other cards, but perhaps I need to reconsider.

After review, I decided my most underutilized $4 cards were:
Wandering Minstrel - Wow have I changed my mind on that!!  So much so that I just adopted it for my profile picture (more appropriate to my ID I think ; )  I simply had not explored its potential enough after a couple games where it bypassed golds or platinums.  Now I think of it as one of the real powerhouse engine cards.  I would definitely rank it a lot higher now.
Scavenger - I’ve certainly used it, but probably not as often as I should have.
Procession - I still need to explore this card more.  Just so hard to find a situation where I want to trash/upgrade an action card…or more likely I just need to get better at spotting the opportunities.

Where I still differ:
Sea Hag - A powerful card, but I just don’t see it at #1.  I had it at #4 personally.  Without an ability to trash or remodel it later, it too often becomes a dead card.
Young Witch - Likewise, a good card, but too often foiled by bane cards, and having to discard 2 cards is a pretty big penalty unless you are looking to do some sifting.  Was not in my top 10.
Tournament - I love this card.  Cornucopia is one of the IRL sets I own, and I have played a lot of it in 2, 3, and 4 person games.  The prizes are just so much fun, and so powerful that they are often game changers.  But…if you don’t quickly get to the first couple prizes, and your opponents get a few Provinces, they are often dead action cards.  I may be biased from 4 player games where that happens a lot more often, but I don’t see Tournament at #2.
Jack of All Trades - This was my #1.  I can see it might not deserve #1 since it can fade in later game, but it is just such a strong all-around opener and after-the-fact counter to attacks.  Just a lot of fun to play, so it got my fun vote!
Caravan and Militia - probably deserve to be a few spots higher in my humble opinion.  Oh…and Trader as well for both the silver generation when that is valuable, and for the reaction to turn curses into silvers.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 04:28:36 am by 7string »
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #121 on: April 18, 2014, 04:51:52 am »
+1

Walled Village - Again I probably overrated it a few spots, but I still see all of the villages as enablers which are critical to making the engines work since a terminal draw without a village is an engine stopper.
You probably aren't overrating it, I think the villages should be a lot closer to each other on this list.
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serakfalcon

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #122 on: April 18, 2014, 05:06:01 am »
0

Walled Village - Again I probably overrated it a few spots, but I still see all of the villages as enablers which are critical to making the engines work since a terminal draw without a village is an engine stopper.
You probably aren't overrating it, I think the villages should be a lot closer to each other on this list.

The standard deviation on all the cards is so high that you can't put too much emphasis on specific rankings, especially within 1 or 2 spots. If you look at ±1σ which is hardly a strong criteria the ranking is something like Workers Village & Plaza > (All other Villages) >= Walled Village.

At ±3σ we can basically be sure that Tournament is better than scout, and not much else.
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florrat

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #123 on: April 19, 2014, 02:40:58 am »
+3

At ±3σ we can basically be sure that Tournament is better than scout, and not much else.
The standard deviations listed here are the standard deviations of the votes given (at least, I assume so). The standard deviation of the mean of the votes is sqrt(n) times as small (where n is the number of votes), so on this list 11 times as small. This means that small differences are already quite significant on this list (which is not that strange with a sample size of >100).

For example, if we take "statistical significant" to mean ±3σ, then Tournament (#2) is statistical significantly rated higher by our community than Ironmonger (#5) (and also higher than all cards below Ironmonger1).

 >>> WARNING: MATH AHEAD <<<


This is because their difference in weighted average is
88.5 - 81.4 = 7.1
and the standard deviation of the difference (of the average) is2
σ = sqrt(14.9^2+18.9^2)/sqrt(121) = 2.2
So 0 is 3.2σ away from the mean, which means that Tournament is statistical significantly higher than Ironmonger.

----------
1 this does not follow automatically, since the standard deviations can be higher.
2 here I'm assuming that they are independent (or at least that their covariance is 0), which is not entirely correct, but close enough
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terminalCopper

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2014 Edition: $4 cards
« Reply #124 on: April 19, 2014, 04:32:32 am »
+5

Good analysis.

For example, if we take "statistical significant" to mean ±3σ

... which is a lot - as far as i can remember, in a gaussian distribiution, a corridor of ±2σ already covers roughly 95%. (Though, I haven't worked with concrete numbers for a while, feel free to correct me.)

>>> WARNING: MATH AHEAD <<<

I really like the delayed warning. Everything written above it is supposed to be trivial common knowledge, right? ;)
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