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ehunt

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challenge
« on: March 19, 2014, 06:19:52 pm »
0

Post a log that you won on 2 or fewer points, with Dame Josephine in your deck.
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ragingduckd

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Re: challenge
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2014, 07:10:00 pm »
+5

AI - 13 VP with Josephine
yuga ta - 12 VP
log

AI - 11 VP with Josephine
Stef - 12 VP
log

Damn it, Stef!
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ehunt

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Re: challenge
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2014, 08:05:22 pm »
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Nice! Was point counter on in the first one?
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ragingduckd

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Re: challenge
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2014, 08:08:14 pm »
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Nice! Was point counter on in the first one?

Not sure... It was a while ago.  That's the only one out if all my pro games, BTW.  So yeah, apparently Josephine is a pretty lousy knight.
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Qvist

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Re: challenge
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2014, 08:12:41 pm »
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SCSN

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Re: challenge
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2014, 08:16:53 pm »
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I found a couple where I lost, but this one I won. Really weird game.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: challenge
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2014, 08:30:31 pm »
+2

Nice! Was point counter on in the first one?

Not sure... It was a while ago.  That's the only one out if all my pro games, BTW.  So yeah, apparently Josephine is a pretty lousy knight.

It's worth pointing out that not all games where Josephine decides the outcome are games that are within 2 points.  What I mean by that is, maybe your opponent decides not to break PPR or whatever because of the 2 point difference, and that ends up causing you to win, even though the final score difference is much larger.

Also, how much of a difference do most cards make?  Like, if you could go back into a game and switch Josephine's bonus to be +$2 rather than 2 VP, how many more games would be decided by that that weren't decided by the 2 VP?  I don't think that number would be super high.

I agree Josephine is a bad knight (possibly the worst), but I don't think you would know that just based on how many games satisfy ehunt's challenge.
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KingZog3

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Re: challenge
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2014, 08:56:40 pm »
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Only happened to me once and it was IRL. Boy was my opponent annoyed by that...because he ended it.
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Re: challenge
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2014, 10:43:37 pm »
0

Out of the 162 Knights games that I skimmed over, here are my findings:

A game that I won on turns with Dame Josephine in my deck.

One where I lost by a single point to Lespeutere, and he had Dame Josephine.

And then one where I lose on turns when my opponent had the Dame.

And finally one where I win by one point with the Dame.

So about 2% of all the games that I have played with knights have been decided by Dame Josephine, and I have only managed to win half of those games.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: challenge
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2014, 11:02:37 pm »
0

Out of all of the pro games with Knights that I've played that goko has managed to record, I managed to find two where Dame Josephine was the deciding factor.

One
Two
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ragingduckd

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Re: challenge
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2014, 01:48:06 am »
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It's worth pointing out that not all games where Josephine decides the outcome are games that are within 2 points.  What I mean by that is, maybe your opponent decides not to break PPR or whatever because of the 2 point difference, and that ends up causing you to win, even though the final score difference is much larger.

You're definitely right that those games should also be credited to Josephine, but I don't think they're several times as common as the regular 1-2 VP wins.  And several times more is what you'd need to make the stats people are reporting look respectable for Josephine.

After all, we're taking about adding games where:
- Your opponent chooses not to break PPR (or leave a 3rd pile near-empty, etc) because you're up by 1-2 VP,
- and you eventually end up winning by more than 1-2 VP,
- and you would have ended up losing if you had been 2 VP poorer when your opponent made his PPR decision.

Additionally, we should deduct from Josephine's tally any games where you would have won anyway, but not on that turn (e.g. if you could have bought a Duchy instead of 3-piling with a 1 VP lead).

Quote
Also, how much of a difference do most cards make?  Like, if you could go back into a game and switch Josephine's bonus to be +$2 rather than 2 VP, how many more games would be decided by that that weren't decided by the 2 VP?  I don't think that number would be super high.

This is a clearer issue.  The +$2 bonus you propose is a huge deal, and Dame Sylvia is correspondingly far stronger than Dame Josephine.

Imagine if you bought a Silver on T6 and your opponent handed you a Duchy instead.  That's a disaster that has a good chance of costing you the game, far worse that failing to acquire Josephine's 2 VP.  If your intuition differs, just try modifying a (non-Rebuild) simulator to prefer Duchy over Silver and watch it get crushed.
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amalloy

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Re: challenge
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2014, 02:03:44 am »
+1

Imagine if you bought a Silver on T6 and your opponent handed you a Duchy instead.  That's a disaster that has a good chance of costing you the game, far worse that failing to acquire Josephine's 2 VP.  If your intuition differs, just try modifying a (non-Rebuild) simulator to prefer Duchy over Silver and watch it get crushed.

I bet this has actually happened at least once: "I'll just take a silver, and --" "I reveal Trader. Now you have to gain a Duchy instead."
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Axxle

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Re: challenge
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2014, 02:45:21 am »
0

I still haven't bought a knight...
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ehunt

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Re: challenge
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2014, 03:04:48 am »
0

Clarification: I am not trying to argue about whether Dame Josephine is a bad knight or a good one. I just wanted to see some interesting logs. (I did suspect they would be rare, but I don't know enough about postisoera dominion strategy to be confident. )
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Polk5440

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Re: challenge
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2014, 01:51:00 pm »
+1

Out of the 162 Knights games that I skimmed over, here are my findings:

A game that I won on turns with Dame Josephine in my deck.

One where I lost by a single point to Lespeutere, and he had Dame Josephine.

And then one where I lose on turns when my opponent had the Dame.

And finally one where I win by one point with the Dame.

So about 2% of all the games that I have played with knights have been decided by Dame Josephine, and I have only managed to win half of those games.

2% is too low. I assume you didn't empty the Knights pile in each of those 162 games. Just because Knights are available doesn't mean Dame Josephine is going to be.

Also -- 4 points is potentially the margin you want if both players buy Knights. 2 points if it's in my deck and survives, 2 points to you if it's in yours and survives.

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JW

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Re: challenge
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2014, 02:54:39 pm »
+3

Imagine if you bought a Silver on T6 and your opponent handed you a Duchy instead.  That's a disaster that has a good chance of costing you the game, far worse that failing to acquire Josephine's 2 VP.  If your intuition differs, just try modifying a (non-Rebuild) simulator to prefer Duchy over Silver and watch it get crushed.

It's also worth pointing out that about 25% of Knights games on full random will use Shelters and in these games buying Dame Josephine may let you trash Hovel.
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RTT

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Re: challenge
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2014, 09:20:22 pm »
+1

Actualy this game wins by one point with me having dame josephine and 5 duchys and two estates vs his 3 provinces.
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140317/log.50bfbb9ae4b0a380e35fa23b.1395065423389.txt

this is even more hillarious. my opponent miscounts because of Dame J in my deck and ends the game with me 1 point ahead.
http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/logprettifier.html?20140206/log.50bfbb9ae4b0a380e35fa23b.1391687093927.txt
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RTT

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Re: challenge
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2014, 09:22:45 pm »
0

Imagine if you bought a Silver on T6 and your opponent handed you a Duchy instead.  That's a disaster that has a good chance of costing you the game, far worse that failing to acquire Josephine's 2 VP.  If your intuition differs, just try modifying a (non-Rebuild) simulator to prefer Duchy over Silver and watch it get crushed.

It's also worth pointing out that about 25% of Knights games on full random will use Shelters and in these games buying Dame Josephine may let you trash Hovel.
and 1/10 of all Knight games with Trade Route in it give Trade Route more potential because of dame Josephine
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JW

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Re: challenge
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2014, 09:35:08 pm »
0

It's also worth pointing out that about 25% of Knights games on full random will use Shelters and in these games buying Dame Josephine may let you trash Hovel.

and 1/10 of all Knight games with Trade Route in it give Trade Route more potential because of dame Josephine

Actually, according to the Wiki the official FAQ states,

Quote
Dame Josephine is also a Victory card, worth 2 VP at the end of the game. The Knight pile is not a Victory pile though, and does not get a counter for Trade Route (from Prosperity) even if Dame Josephine starts on top.
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RTT

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Re: challenge
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2014, 10:05:32 pm »
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ok nevermind then i played a game in real where i did put the token on her nevertheless.  ;)
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GeoLib

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Re: challenge
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2014, 11:02:34 am »
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ok nevermind then i played a game in real where i did put the token on her nevertheless.  ;)

Cheater! Vote: RTT
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liopoil

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Re: challenge
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2014, 07:48:32 pm »
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Guys, you're all missing the best bonus from Dame Josephine - she combos with scout!!
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SirPeebles

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Re: challenge
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2014, 01:50:06 am »
+4

Guys, you're all missing the best bonus from Dame Josephine - she combos with scout!!

Indeed.  You can Masq her to an opponent and wait for her to clear the Scouts out of your deck.
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KingZog3

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Re: challenge
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2014, 01:37:31 pm »
+2

I have another challenge. Much harder. Does anyone have a log of them winning a game without any cards left in their deck?
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Donald X.

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Re: challenge
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2014, 03:07:19 am »
0

I have another challenge. Much harder. Does anyone have a log of them winning a game without any cards left in their deck?
I've posted a link to a log where at one point the eventual winner had no cards (due to KC/Masq). The link is dead now though. You can read the story at http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=76.0.
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KingZog3

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Re: challenge
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2014, 11:01:41 am »
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I have another challenge. Much harder. Does anyone have a log of them winning a game without any cards left in their deck?
I've posted a link to a log where at one point the eventual winner had no cards (due to KC/Masq). The link is dead now though. You can read the story at http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=76.0.

Pretty cool. Of course this counts. I was thinking more along the lines of KC-Monument-Death Cart and some other trasher to completely empty your deck and 3 piles in one turn.
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liopoil

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Re: challenge
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2014, 03:32:51 pm »
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IIRC I had an isotropic game where got to a deck of KC-KC-Margrave-Masq, trashed my opponents deck, and proceeded to mess up horribly in building back up and lost.
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