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Author Topic: Overpay for VP tokens  (Read 8466 times)

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JW

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Overpay for VP tokens
« on: March 19, 2014, 06:19:10 pm »
0

I was thinking about simple ways that a card could give you VP based on the number of coins available, and overpay for VP chips seemed like an easy way to do that.

Type: Victory
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.
For each $2 you overpay when you buy this, +1 VP token.

I'd worry that with strong coin token generation there might be excessively long games (or even stalemates if the decks produce exactly the same number of coin tokens each turn and no one can three-pile or profitably add a new card to their deck). A limit on the number of VP tokens you can gain through the overpay would be awkward, but might avoid some of those issues.

Thoughts?
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silverspawn

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2014, 06:23:54 pm »
+1

as is the card is horrible.

4$: Tunnel
6$: Duchy
8$: 2 Tunnels
10$: Duchy and Tunnel
12$: Province
20$: Colony

Eh. I guess you can trash the card and keep the vp, but man, that's way too situative to be useful

JW

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2014, 06:31:26 pm »
0

as is the card is horrible.

I agree that the card is rather weak and on most boards will be consolation for not hitting $5 for Duchy late game. Besides the case you mentioned with trashing, it could shine when there is huge coin generation but no + buy.

One solution could be to make the card do something besides giving VP, which would also make it more interesting.
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Joseph2302

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2014, 06:42:40 pm »
0

I was thinking about simple ways that a card could give you VP based on the number of coins available, and overpay for VP chips seemed like an easy way to do that.

Type: Victory
Cost: $4
Worth 2 VP.
For each $2 you overpay when you buy this, +1 VP token.


as is the card is horrible.

4$: Tunnel
6$: Duchy
8$: 2 Tunnels
10$: Duchy and Tunnel
12$: Province
20$: Colony

Eh. I guess you can trash the card and keep the vp, but man, that's way too situative to be useful

How about, $1 for 1VP instead, would make it stronger.

4$: Tunnel
5$: Duchy
6$: 2 Tunnels
7$: Duchy and Tunnel
8$: Province
12$: Colony
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silverspawn

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2014, 06:42:50 pm »
0

I'm not convinced of the concept, but if you want to make it work, i'd put it on an action card rather then a victory card. on a victory card it's just too similar to Province/Colony, probably either being clearly worse or clearly better.

how about something like

action - ?? - 3$
trash two cards from your hand. gain a card costing as much as both of them combined, putting it into your hand.
when you buy this, you may overpay it. if you do, gain 1 VP token per $2 you overpayed

Quote
How about, $1 for 1VP instead, would make it stronger.
and stictly superior to duchy and province, and almost identical to colony. no, tweaking the powerlevel doesn't solve the problem
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 06:44:26 pm by silverspawn »
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JW

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2014, 07:08:14 pm »
+1

I'm not convinced of the concept, but if you want to make it work, i'd put it on an action card rather then a victory card. on a victory card it's just too similar to Province/Colony, probably either being clearly worse or clearly better.

If only this worked:

Type: Victory-Action
Cost: $3
+1 Card
+1 Action
Worth 1 VP.
For each $2 you overpay when you buy this, +1 VP token.



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silverspawn

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2014, 07:37:03 pm »
0

I'm not convinced of the concept, but if you want to make it work, i'd put it on an action card rather then a victory card. on a victory card it's just too similar to Province/Colony, probably either being clearly worse or clearly better.

If only this worked:

Type: Victory-Action
Cost: $3
+1 Card
+1 Action
Worth 1 VP.
For each $2 you overpay when you buy this, +1 VP token.

that's stricty better than great hall

Nik

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2014, 07:47:25 pm »
0

I believe this card can be improved by making a few simple changes...

Action-Victory--$3
1VP.
You may overpay for this card. For every $2 you overpay, +1VP.
You may trash this card. If you do, +1VP.


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Asper

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2014, 06:00:42 am »
+2

I can't seem to find it anymore, but i proposed this idea some time ago:

Town Hall, 4$, Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
---
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, +1VP per $ you overpaid.

There were variants where it costed 5 and had one VP on it from the start, but it was always a cantrip-Duchy for 7$ when you couldn't afford a Province and a cantrip Province when you missed Colony at 10$ (i'm not sure whether i gave the version i post here, but i think it's the cleanest there is).

There was no general consensus about the card back then, but i remember that some (i don't recall who was it, but he was respected) considered it too strong, while others (also respected) thought it was just right, as the official VP card became better the more you payed, too.
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soulnet

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2014, 08:32:35 am »
+1

I see it too prone to stalemating, though. Why would you green at all if you have the chance to keep building money, and money is immediately translated into points? It seems to me this would be worse than the existing VP token cards in that sense. There is almost no incentive to buy any other green if any kind of big payload engine is available. At least Goons forces you to buy terminals, with this, you can keep adding cantrip money or hoarding coin tokens without any harm. It kind-of turns Baker into a cantrip VP generator, which is really bad.
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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2014, 04:24:54 pm »
0

I see it too prone to stalemating, though. Why would you green at all if you have the chance to keep building money, and money is immediately translated into points? It seems to me this would be worse than the existing VP token cards in that sense. There is almost no incentive to buy any other green if any kind of big payload engine is available. At least Goons forces you to buy terminals, with this, you can keep adding cantrip money or hoarding coin tokens without any harm. It kind-of turns Baker into a cantrip VP generator, which is really bad.

There's only ten of them, though.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Joseph2302

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2014, 04:46:40 pm »
0

I see it too prone to stalemating, though. Why would you green at all if you have the chance to keep building money, and money is immediately translated into points? It seems to me this would be worse than the existing VP token cards in that sense. There is almost no incentive to buy any other green if any kind of big payload engine is available. At least Goons forces you to buy terminals, with this, you can keep adding cantrip money or hoarding coin tokens without any harm. It kind-of turns Baker into a cantrip VP generator, which is really bad.

There's only ten of them, though.

As they're victory cards, there will actually be 8/12 of them.
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sudgy

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2014, 04:58:08 pm »
0

I see it too prone to stalemating, though. Why would you green at all if you have the chance to keep building money, and money is immediately translated into points? It seems to me this would be worse than the existing VP token cards in that sense. There is almost no incentive to buy any other green if any kind of big payload engine is available. At least Goons forces you to buy terminals, with this, you can keep adding cantrip money or hoarding coin tokens without any harm. It kind-of turns Baker into a cantrip VP generator, which is really bad.

There's only ten of them, though.

As they're victory cards, there will actually be 8/12 of them.

I had just seen this, so I thought he was replying to it:

I can't seem to find it anymore, but i proposed this idea some time ago:

Town Hall, 4$, Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
---
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, +1VP per $ you overpaid.

There were variants where it costed 5 and had one VP on it from the start, but it was always a cantrip-Duchy for 7$ when you couldn't afford a Province and a cantrip Province when you missed Colony at 10$ (i'm not sure whether i gave the version i post here, but i think it's the cleanest there is).

There was no general consensus about the card back then, but i remember that some (i don't recall who was it, but he was respected) considered it too strong, while others (also respected) thought it was just right, as the official VP card became better the more you payed, too.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

soulnet

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2014, 11:04:53 pm »
0

There's only ten of them, though.

That's not a problem, as a single one can be worth a lot through overpaying. In several cases it is better to just keep adding money to your deck so you can overpay more. I think it being a cantrip is good, because you do not double your money every turn, so buying two is better than building and buying the first. The problem is the game of patience when the score is tied and there are two left. PPR is worse than ever, because every other green does not matter (with a good enough engine).

EDIT: A good solution would be to have 6VP be worth more than $8, so buying Provinces is still worth at least some extra VP (if you have the +buy).
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Asper

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2014, 07:36:08 am »
0

EDIT: A good solution would be to have 6VP be worth more than $8, so buying Provinces is still worth at least some extra VP (if you have the +buy).

I don't get this. Neither JW's nor my go for the idea has 6VP cost less than $8. My card, for example, has 6VP cost $10. Am i understanding something wrong here?
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soulnet

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2014, 10:41:03 am »
+1

EDIT: A good solution would be to have 6VP be worth more than $8, so buying Provinces is still worth at least some extra VP (if you have the +buy).

I don't get this. Neither JW's nor my go for the idea has 6VP cost less than $8. My card, for example, has 6VP cost $10. Am i understanding something wrong here?

In your card, 6 VP actually cost $6. The added $4 is a fixed price. What I mean is, it is better for your deck to build up to a deck that makes $6 more for the upcoming overpay instead of buying a Province for $8. And, when you are already overpaying, it never makes sense to buy any other green. I think it would be great if other green could still complement the overpay strategy. Unlike other alt-VP, this completely removes the need for any other VP card. I cannot think of any strategy that does that, even Goons megaturns use VP cards when piles are low (not always, but most times).
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Asper

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2014, 04:04:58 pm »
0

EDIT: A good solution would be to have 6VP be worth more than $8, so buying Provinces is still worth at least some extra VP (if you have the +buy).

I don't get this. Neither JW's nor my go for the idea has 6VP cost less than $8. My card, for example, has 6VP cost $10. Am i understanding something wrong here?

In your card, 6 VP actually cost $6. The added $4 is a fixed price. What I mean is, it is better for your deck to build up to a deck that makes $6 more for the upcoming overpay instead of buying a Province for $8. And, when you are already overpaying, it never makes sense to buy any other green. I think it would be great if other green could still complement the overpay strategy. Unlike other alt-VP, this completely removes the need for any other VP card. I cannot think of any strategy that does that, even Goons megaturns use VP cards when piles are low (not always, but most times).

Ah, i get it. Thank you. I definitely can see your point now.
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market squire

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2014, 08:24:10 am »
0

What about making it a Curse card? I think overpay is the best way to make alt-Curses because only the buy is affected.

Type: Curse
Cost: $0+
Worth: -2 VP
___________________
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. +1 VP for each $1 you overpaid.

Rule: If any card refers to a "Curse", treat it as it said "Curse card".
(In other words, treat this card as it was a Curse.)

It makes Curse games a bit longer because there are 10 more curses available (or 8/12, similar to Victory cards?). E.g., when getting attacked by a Witch, you choose which Curse you gain (if both are available).
Non-Curse games get more interesting because of the unlimited VPs.
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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2014, 02:44:50 pm »
+1

Overpaying isn't currently attached to any Victory cards, so what about the simplest one imaginable?
Quote
Frontier
Types: Victory
Cost: $4+
2VP
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For every $2 overpaid, rounded down, gain a Frontier
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silverspawn

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2014, 05:40:28 pm »
0

Overpaying isn't currently attached to any Victory cards, so what about the simplest one imaginable?
Quote
Frontier
Types: Victory
Cost: $4+
2VP
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For every $2 overpaid, rounded down, gain a Frontier

actually, that sounds pretty good

eHalcyon

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2014, 07:48:17 pm »
0

What about making it a Curse card? I think overpay is the best way to make alt-Curses because only the buy is affected.

Type: Curse
Cost: $0+
Worth: -2 VP
___________________
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. +1 VP for each $1 you overpaid.

Rule: If any card refers to a "Curse", treat it as it said "Curse card".
(In other words, treat this card as it was a Curse.)

It makes Curse games a bit longer because there are 10 more curses available (or 8/12, similar to Victory cards?). E.g., when getting attacked by a Witch, you choose which Curse you gain (if both are available).
Non-Curse games get more interesting because of the unlimited VPs.

I really don't think a second Curse pile is a good idea.  It artificially makes cursing attacks more powerful.  They're strong enough already.  It doesn't make the "overpay for VP tokens" concept any better because nobody is ever going to buy it for $0.  In fact, they will rarely even buy it at $3 because that's just an Estate in value.  Yeah there are edge cases with Watchtower and trashers, but still.  So we're looking at what is typically a $4 card worth 2VP that can be worth more VP with overpay... which is what the OP is already, albeit with better scaling.  And that's the real question here -- is there a scaling that actually works well?  That's what most of the discussion in this thread has been about.
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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2014, 05:00:59 am »
0

Overpaying isn't currently attached to any Victory cards, so what about the simplest one imaginable?
Quote
Frontier
Types: Victory
Cost: $4+
2VP
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For every $2 overpaid, rounded down, gain a Frontier

actually, that sounds pretty good
The main problem with having such a plain VP card is that it doesn't really add anything over Duchy or Estate. It takes up a valuable kingdom spot without providing an alternative strategy (like Feodum or Duke) or providing an extra type (action, treasture, reaction).

Frontier will only get bought if you're one $ short of Duchy or one $ over Duchy. And that only adds drag to the game without any strategic depth.
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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2014, 05:27:48 am »
0

without providing an alternative strategy
It's great for 3-piling, since you can gain them all with a single buy and the ones after the first are cheap. It definitely changes the game, much more than Feodum in most kingdoms, I would say.
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market squire

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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2014, 08:59:23 am »
0

What about making it a Curse card? I think overpay is the best way to make alt-Curses because only the buy is affected.

Type: Curse
Cost: $0+
Worth: -2 VP
___________________
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. +1 VP for each $1 you overpaid.

Rule: If any card refers to a "Curse", treat it as it said "Curse card".
(In other words, treat this card as it was a Curse.)

It makes Curse games a bit longer because there are 10 more curses available (or 8/12, similar to Victory cards?). E.g., when getting attacked by a Witch, you choose which Curse you gain (if both are available).
Non-Curse games get more interesting because of the unlimited VPs.

I really don't think a second Curse pile is a good idea.  It artificially makes cursing attacks more powerful.  They're strong enough already.  It doesn't make the "overpay for VP tokens" concept any better because nobody is ever going to buy it for $0.  In fact, they will rarely even buy it at $3 because that's just an Estate in value.  Yeah there are edge cases with Watchtower and trashers, but still.  So we're looking at what is typically a $4 card worth 2VP that can be worth more VP with overpay... which is what the OP is already, albeit with better scaling.  And that's the real question here -- is there a scaling that actually works well?  That's what most of the discussion in this thread has been about.
Okay, I see that the Curse idea is almost the same as the $4 card with +1 VP per +$1 overpaid, just more favorable with trashers. (I don't consider trashers as edge cases.)

Scaling: The thing is, providing 1:1 $->VP is what Colony almost does. With the overpay, we say "the more you pay, the better the ratio." When you pay more than $22, the ratio gets better than Colony (besides getting only one dead card).
Maybe the pure "overpay for VP tokens" is a bad idea because it is unlimited, as soulnet said:
I see it too prone to stalemating, though. Why would you green at all if you have the chance to keep building money, and money is immediately translated into points? It seems to me this would be worse than the existing VP token cards in that sense. There is almost no incentive to buy any other green if any kind of big payload engine is available. At least Goons forces you to buy terminals, with this, you can keep adding cantrip money or hoarding coin tokens without any harm. It kind-of turns Baker into a cantrip VP generator, which is really bad.
I see 3 possible solutions:
a) gain VP cards instead of tokens
b) a condition for getting the tokens
c) some special effect besides the tokens

Frontier is a good concept for (a), but I also think that it does not do enough, it only adds few VP to the table and is good for three pile endings.

In the Guilds contest, I submitted this card:
Quote
    Bribe
    Types: Action
    Cost: $5+
    +1 Action. Gain a card costing up to $4.
    When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $5 you overpaid (rounded down), gain a Province.
The Action part could be better. To make it interesting, I wanted something that you actually want as early as possible, while being helpful for an engine, so I went with nonterminal Workshop, but meh.
The core thing is the overpay. I wanted to create an alternate path to victory - just aiming a huge amount of money without the need of +buys.


Back to VP tokens and my other two solutions.

An idea for (b), with a condition to get those tokens, could be something like "+1 VP for each $1 you overpaid, but not more than the number of differently named cards you have in play".

A card for (c), some special effect besides the tokens, would be tacking it on a nice Action, as silverspawn suggested (or as I tried to do with Bribe).
Or maybe also something exotic like "if you overpaid at least $20, you may declare the game to end after this turn".
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Re: Overpay for VP tokens
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2014, 07:05:16 am »
0

Some other restrictive ideas for (b):

Quote
Auction House (Victory) $4+

Worth 2 VP.
____________________
When you buy this, you may overpay for it by up to $1 per card in your hand. +1 VP per $1 overpaid.
This is a personal limit, maybe it is not limiting enough, but at least it wants other Victory cards in the deck.

Quote
Landlord (Victory) $4+

Worth 2 VP.
____________________
When you buy this, you may overpay for it by up to $1 per Province in the supply. +1 VP per $1 overpaid.
A decreasing common limit that adds another bonus to buying Provinces.

Quote
Trade Relations (Victory) $4+

Worth 2 VP.
____________________
When you buy this, you may overpay for it by up to $1 per token on the Trade Route mat. +1 VP per $1 overpaid.
An increasing common limit (use Trade Route mat and tokens as you do usually for Trade Route), maybe it could also be up to $2 per token on the mat.
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