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Author Topic: Exception to the rule, Part 3  (Read 3731 times)

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chwhite

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Exception to the rule, Part 3
« on: November 30, 2011, 08:01:53 pm »
+1

This one's probably more subjective than most puzzles here (though I have a couple ideas); it's more of a thought experiment I guess.

It's a pretty well established rule among folks with some knowledge of Dominion strategy that it is never a good idea to make (vanilla) Village one of your opening buys.  When is this not the case?
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AJD

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Re: Exception to the rule, Part 3
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2011, 08:18:13 pm »
+4

When you're trying to set up a Torturer engine, is my most immediate response—especially if there's a $4 that will help you get to $5 fast to make up for not getting a Silver with your $3, like Feast or Horse Traders.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Exception to the rule, Part 3
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2011, 08:20:05 pm »
0

It would technically reduce the chances your opponent would hit with an opening Pirate Ship, but I am not sure that is enough to actually justify it.

DG

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Re: Exception to the rule, Part 3
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2011, 08:41:57 pm »
0

Young witch bane
Steward decks
Remodel/remake/develop decks
Anti-pirate decks
ironworks/workshop/smuggler decks
conspirator decks
feast moving to selective 5's
some continuations using thrones, king's courts
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 08:44:18 pm by DG »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Exception to the rule, Part 3
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2011, 03:08:24 am »
+1

I think this is less of a puzzle, and more of a strategy discussion...
I agree with DG's answers, though the KC one is questionable, and peddler should also be mentioned. As a general strategy answer: Generally, if you are going to gain cards without needing money to buy them, and you want villages eventually, you can start getting them right away.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Exception to the rule, Part 3
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2011, 03:17:12 am »
0

Yeah, I suppose any time you want a treasureless (or as close to as possible) deck which you can build without Silver and you don't want anything else for $3 or less. I'm thinking Minion + Horse Traders as a prime example. On second thoughts, do you really want Minions with HTs around? I'm not sure, but that's another question entirely.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Exception to the rule, Part 3
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2011, 04:45:51 am »
+1

Scrying Pool deck and there's no money-providing actions or trashing or +buy at $3 or less.

If it doesn't have to be Vanillage (can we make that term stick?) NV/Bridge.
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Saucery

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Re: Exception to the rule, Part 3
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2011, 08:12:20 am »
+1

Nomad Camp -> $3 Village + $2 Terminal, Mandarin/Inn shenanigans, and Diving straight into peddlers
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chwhite

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Re: Exception to the rule, Part 3
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2011, 09:27:23 am »
0

Nomad Camp -> $3 Village + $2 Terminal, Mandarin/Inn shenanigans, and Diving straight into peddlers

I was wondering when someone would mention Nomad Camp and Mandarin shenanigans; those were the first things that came to my mind.

Yeah, I suppose any time you want a treasureless (or as close to as possible) deck which you can build without Silver and you don't want anything else for $3 or less. I'm thinking Minion + Horse Traders as a prime example. On second thoughts, do you really want Minions with HTs around? I'm not sure, but that's another question entirely.

To answer the (tangential) question under your spoiler, usually: HT obviously counters the attack and then some, but the benefit to you is still there, and with Villages around there is sufficient synergy between HT and Minion that I'd be inclined to take both.

Obviously HiveMind is right that these answers need to be judged on more subjective strategy grounds; they're all somewhat plausible but I can often imagine usually taking a Silver anyway.  AJD's is probably my favorite of the bunch, Feast/Village really does look like the right opening in that situation.
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ehunt

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Re: Exception to the rule, Part 3
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2011, 11:22:17 am »
+1


<rant>

"Don't open village, because it's always useless on the second shuffle" is an important strategy lesson that's usually true, and the exceptions to it are sufficiently rare that a beginner would be wise to ignore them.

HOWEVER, it doesn't follow logically from "village is never useful on the second shuffle" that "you never want to open village." Yes, OK, the second shuffle is insanely important, and so it does normally turn out this way. However, the cards you buy on turns one and two aren't just there in the second shuffle. They're also with you for the rest of the game. Village/horse traders in a torturer game, as was said above, is a great example where you just really don't want that silver.

Tangential subrant: I have also argued elsewhere that in ambassador games where no village costs less than 4, an ambassador/worker's village or especially ambassador/walled village opening is fantastic. People disagreed, but I think they were wrong. I don't trust councilroom.com data on this, because a lot of people opening ambassador/walled village are new to the game, haven't heard the "don't open village rule," and thus will likely also be worse at playing the ambassador.  The fact of the matter is that even Ambassador/_ is a pretty good opening, the point being that _ , in a sense, cycles the deck...

</rant>
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popsofctown

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Re: Exception to the rule, Part 3
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2011, 11:09:08 am »
0

I opened village/potion in a Scrying Pool game that had Goons in it.  Is that legit?
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Exception to the rule, Part 3
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2011, 11:12:54 am »
+1

I opened village/potion in a Scrying Pool game that had Goons in it.  Is that legit?

I don't really see that helping you get to $6 to get the Goons... I'd go Potion/Terminal Silver or Potion/Silver if that's not possible, grab Goons with the first $6 hand and then use its +buy to grab double Village or Village/Pool turns later on.
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olneyce

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Re: Exception to the rule, Part 3
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2011, 02:18:07 pm »
+1

Ambassador/Walled Village is awesome.  Who doesn't think it's awesome?
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popsofctown

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Re: Exception to the rule, Part 3
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2011, 01:32:10 pm »
0

I'd buy terminal silver over village in a heartbeat, but there wasn't any.  The board is here:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111201-213133-bd2d0566.html

I didn't see it as that much of an advantage to race to the first Goons.  I tried to focus on a slim deck that would combo well once I did get some Goons to put into it.  Maybe an opening silver and nothing more would have been worth the clog.  But I'm stubborn.

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