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Author Topic: Discarding down to X cards  (Read 9517 times)

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pst

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Discarding down to X cards
« on: March 17, 2014, 04:14:32 pm »
+4

I just realized I still have a basic rule question, that has been with me since the basic set.

When you discard down to a specific number of cards (like when attacked by Militia), do you discard cards one at a time or not?

The rules say that when "discarding several cards at once, the player need not show all cards he is discarding to his opponents". An example is Cellar.

But the text on Militia says each other player "discards down to 3 cards in his hand", and the rules explain this as "The attacked players discard cards until they have only 3 cards in hand" (my bolding). This doesn't sound to me like an instance where you are instructed to discard several cards at once, but as it's one at a time until the limit is met.

(I've checked later cards with "discard down to", and they don't say more about this.)

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Marcory

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 04:27:51 pm »
+3

You always do things one at a time in Dominion. For example, if you have Tunnel and Watchtower in hand and you are attacked by a Militia, you could discard the Tunnel, gain a Gold, top-deck it with the Watchtower, and then discard the Watchtower.

For example, when you buy a Cache with Trader in hand, you first gain the 1st copper--giving you a chance to reveal your Trader to get a Silver instead--then you gain the 2nd Copper, allowing you to reveal Trader again, then you gain the Cache (and you can reveal Trader again to get a Silver instead of a Cache if this fits your strategy--e.g. with Feodum in the Kingdom).

Another example: you can play Ill-Gotten Gains, gain a Copper, and then Counterfeit and trash the newly-gained Copper.

Goko (for all its faults) will perform these actions correctly, if you want to try it out yourself.
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pst

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2014, 04:35:30 pm »
0

Thanks. Yes, this is what I have always read it as (even though some players afk don't follow this). I should have mentioned that it was this post that made me open this question anyway, to get something to point to there.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2014, 05:18:58 pm »
+1

You always do things one at a time in Dominion. For example, if you have Tunnel and Watchtower in hand and you are attacked by a Militia, you could discard the Tunnel, gain a Gold, top-deck it with the Watchtower, and then discard the Watchtower.

For example, when you buy a Cache with Trader in hand, you first gain the 1st copper--giving you a chance to reveal your Trader to get a Silver instead--then you gain the 2nd Copper, allowing you to reveal Trader again, then you gain the Cache (and you can reveal Trader again to get a Silver instead of a Cache if this fits your strategy--e.g. with Feodum in the Kingdom).

Another example: you can play Ill-Gotten Gains, gain a Copper, and then Counterfeit and trash the newly-gained Copper.

Goko (for all its faults) will perform these actions correctly, if you want to try it out yourself.

What about when another player plays Minion and you have Tunnel and Watchtower.  Does Goko simply discard Tunnel first because discarding Tunnel first and choosing not to reveal is equivalent to discarding Watchtower first?
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amalloy

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2014, 05:29:20 pm »
0

For example, when you buy a Cache with Trader in hand, you first gain the 1st copper--giving you a chance to reveal your Trader to get a Silver instead--then you gain the 2nd Copper, allowing you to reveal Trader again, then you gain the Cache (and you can reveal Trader again to get a Silver instead of a Cache if this fits your strategy--e.g. with Feodum in the Kingdom).

This last bit isn't right: you can reveal Trader to get Silver instead of Copper, but if you use the reaction on the Cache itself, then you don't get the Coppers at all, and can't react to them. Trader's reaction ability is "when you would gain X", which comes before "when you gain X". Cache's "when you gain this" ability takes place after you make the decision about whether to reveal Trader, not before.
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pst

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2014, 05:31:15 pm »
0

What about when another player plays Minion and you have Tunnel and Watchtower.  Does Goko simply discard Tunnel first because discarding Tunnel first and choosing not to reveal is equivalent to discarding Watchtower first?

With Minion you discard your hand. That's an example of "discarding several cards at once" as described in the rules, so they are discarded at the same time. My question was only about "discard down to", which is found on Militia, Goons, Followers, Margrave, Mercenary, Urchin and Sir Michael.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2014, 05:41:16 pm »
0

What about when another player plays Minion and you have Tunnel and Watchtower.  Does Goko simply discard Tunnel first because discarding Tunnel first and choosing not to reveal is equivalent to discarding Watchtower first?

With Minion you discard your hand. That's an example of "discarding several cards at once" as described in the rules, so they are discarded at the same time. My question was only about "discard down to", which is found on Militia, Goons, Followers, Margrave, Mercenary, Urchin and Sir Michael.

Ah.. that was my initial thought, but Marcory had said:

Quote
You always do things one at a time in Dominion.

So this is not quite true, then, right?
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SirPeebles

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2014, 05:44:45 pm »
+8

You do not always discard one at a time.  Yes, this does result in impossible feats where you discard a bunch of Tunnels at once and then magically reveal them without fishing them out of your discard pile.  Dominion works in mysterious ways.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2014, 05:51:11 pm »
0

You do not always discard one at a time.  Yes, this does result in impossible feats where you discard a bunch of Tunnels at once and then magically reveal them without fishing them out of your discard pile.  Dominion works in mysterious ways.

Does the same feat let you topdeck them with your (simultaneously) discard Watchtower?  I would think not.
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AJD

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2014, 05:55:26 pm »
+1

You do not always discard one at a time.  Yes, this does result in impossible feats where you discard a bunch of Tunnels at once and then magically reveal them without fishing them out of your discard pile.  Dominion works in mysterious ways.

Does the same feat let you topdeck them with your (simultaneously) discard Watchtower?  I would think not.

Correct, it does not.
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AJD

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2014, 05:56:33 pm »
+2

And, to clarify, I believe Militia etc. also cause you to discard simultaneously, not one at a time.

(What about Ghost Ship, though? And does it matter what the answer is?)
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Witherweaver

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2014, 05:56:54 pm »
0

You do not always discard one at a time.  Yes, this does result in impossible feats where you discard a bunch of Tunnels at once and then magically reveal them without fishing them out of your discard pile.  Dominion works in mysterious ways.

Does the same feat let you topdeck them with your (simultaneously) discard Watchtower?  I would think not.

Correct, it does not.

Stupid magic; never works when you want it to.
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Witherweaver

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2014, 06:01:08 pm »
+2

And, to clarify, I believe Militia etc. also cause you to discard simultaneously, not one at a time.

(What about Ghost Ship, though? And does it matter what the answer is?)

I would think Militia should be one at a time.  I mean.. that's the natural way to do it, right?  I read "Discard until condition" as: discard a card; check condition; if met, escape; if not, goto beginning. 

Otherwise I would think it would be worded as: "Discard <handsize>-3 cards"
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Ozle

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2014, 06:02:41 pm »
0

It's a shame we scared Donald off....oh wait!
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pst

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2014, 06:16:43 pm »
0

And, to clarify, I believe Militia etc. also cause you to discard simultaneously, not one at a time.

I see, but the reasons why I think not is in the thread starter and I have yet to see any arguments against it.

Quote
(What about Ghost Ship, though? And does it matter what the answer is?)

Ghost Ship is as far as I can see as irrelevant as draw-until-you-have-X-cards (Watchtower, Jack of all Trades, Library).

It doesn't matter much, which is why this isn't an faq, but it matters at least if you want to keep one of your discarded cards secret.
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pst

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2014, 07:06:27 pm »
0

http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?4230-Discarding-trashing-othering-multiple-cards

Thanks! That's a Donald X quote from 2014 where he mentions the discard-down-to cards among those that ought to be handled as simultaneous discards. (He forgot Goons, though.)

The context is goko, and he doesn't really say there that the way they are doing it is wrong ruleswise, but that he suggests these changes to lessen the lag when you play.

As Donald X's rules decisions earlier have been not like "I'm the creator, so my interpretation is law" but rather "hm, let's see what the cards actually say; I don't want faqs outside the game that not all players will have access to anyway", I still think there is a case to be made for what the cards actually say.
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Donald X.

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2014, 10:46:00 pm »
+11

http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?4230-Discarding-trashing-othering-multiple-cards
It turns out that they currently (due to the code they were given) are sending way more information than anyone ever would. They are sending card images over and over, for example. So, in terms of reducing the amount of communication, the Chapel etc. thing isn't up there (though of course it's still better from an interface perspective, and it's good when your own side of things is slowing things down).

The "hidden discards" rule is a wonky thing from the early days, when I didn't have as much control (and/or had not thought things through sufficiently). It's bad to bog a game down on things like pawing through discard piles, but it's a general rule (of game design, not specific to Dominion) that you can't do two things at once unless game components etc. struggle to let you. You always need an order. A very tiny set of cards might dodge the issue, but you quickly hit it. The cards do though provide the components necessary for discarding multiple cards while keeping the order secret. It meant Tunnel had to say "you may reveal this" and yes that's wonky too.

I think it's more natural to discard one at a time to Militia, given the phrasing; especially considering it lines up with Library etc. This could give you an infinite loop with "when you discard this, +1 card" and well that card doesn't exist. I'd rather not have a special ruling and with no special ruling and nothing in the rulebooks, "discard down to 3" sounds to me like I keep discarding until I have 3 (or fewer dammit). However you don't need to reveal the cards below the top one because somehow the rulebook says this.

Other discards are all at once; but the cards are discarded in a particular order, since, being cards, they have to be.

Yes my proposal for the online version for Militia etc. doesn't work the same way; to be correct it would need a special case for hands with both Tunnel and Watchtower. Or to be safe (in case a future card interacted with this stuff), it should do "down to" discarding one at a time but the others in a lump.
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SCSN

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2014, 04:15:53 am »
+6

http://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?4230-Discarding-trashing-othering-multiple-cards
It turns out that they currently (due to the code they were given) are sending way more information than anyone ever would. They are sending card images over and over, for example.

:D Real life is more hilarious than the best comedian could ever hope to make up.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2014, 08:38:22 am »
+3

I dunno, Louis CK has some good bits.
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Jeebus

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2014, 11:18:42 am »
0

I think it's more natural to discard one at a time to Militia, given the phrasing; especially considering it lines up with Library etc. This could give you an infinite loop with "when you discard this, +1 card" and well that card doesn't exist. I'd rather not have a special ruling and with no special ruling and nothing in the rulebooks, "discard down to 3" sounds to me like I keep discarding until I have 3 (or fewer dammit). However you don't need to reveal the cards below the top one because somehow the rulebook says this.

Other discards are all at once; but the cards are discarded in a particular order, since, being cards, they have to be.

Yes my proposal for the online version for Militia etc. doesn't work the same way; to be correct it would need a special case for hands with both Tunnel and Watchtower. Or to be safe (in case a future card interacted with this stuff), it should do "down to" discarding one at a time but the others in a lump.

Hmm, I thought you always discarded cards from your hands all at once (although you can choose the order first). See this post: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1004.msg15441#msg15441

If you discard one card at a time to Militia, it means you can discard a Tunnel, reveal it, gain a Gold, reveal Watchtower to topdeck the Gold, and then discard the Watchtower as the second Militia card. So is this allowed? To me that would be a little wonky, because then you'd be allowed to do this Tunnel-Watchtower trick with Milita, but not with Minion.

Donald X.

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Re: Discarding down to X cards
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2014, 05:43:54 pm »
0

I think it's more natural to discard one at a time to Militia, given the phrasing; especially considering it lines up with Library etc. This could give you an infinite loop with "when you discard this, +1 card" and well that card doesn't exist. I'd rather not have a special ruling and with no special ruling and nothing in the rulebooks, "discard down to 3" sounds to me like I keep discarding until I have 3 (or fewer dammit). However you don't need to reveal the cards below the top one because somehow the rulebook says this.

Other discards are all at once; but the cards are discarded in a particular order, since, being cards, they have to be.

Yes my proposal for the online version for Militia etc. doesn't work the same way; to be correct it would need a special case for hands with both Tunnel and Watchtower. Or to be safe (in case a future card interacted with this stuff), it should do "down to" discarding one at a time but the others in a lump.

Hmm, I thought you always discarded cards from your hands all at once (although you can choose the order first). See this post: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1004.msg15441#msg15441

If you discard one card at a time to Militia, it means you can discard a Tunnel, reveal it, gain a Gold, reveal Watchtower to topdeck the Gold, and then discard the Watchtower as the second Militia card. So is this allowed? To me that would be a little wonky, because then you'd be allowed to do this Tunnel-Watchtower trick with Milita, but not with Minion.
Minion is "discards his hand." Militia is "discards down to 3 cards in hand." The question is, how does the process of "discard down to 3" work - it's specific to that phrasing. It seems to me like you keep discarding until you have 3. Tunnel could interrupt that because it does something when discarded.

It may feel like Militia is "calculate the number of cards in your hand minus 3, and if it's greater than zero, discard that many." It doesn't say that though.

As always very few people will see any ruling I make on this, and if I'm not contradicting a rulebook I would tend to like things to work how people who didn't think about it would play them. Maybe everyone is subtracting 3; it's hard to say.
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