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[Rene Kuroi]

http://www.gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?/20140314/log.5132d720e4b07f4f52105404.1394825428070.txt

This is stupid possession game.
Best choice is no buy and click next turn...

[hvb]

That was a really strange situation. I came to a point where i have to trash all my money, cause Rene Kuroi were able to play 2 possessions every turn. and due to the apprentices he was able to draw my whole deck every time. So it ended up with 2 decks without money and the guy who builds up some money again first will lose the game. So both checked through their turns. How to deal with such an situation?

[qmech]

Ouch.

I don't think there's much you can do once you reach that position.  You seem to have handled this in the best way possible: the player who's behind on points resigning.  Either that or playing in a 24 hour restaurant.

[Kirian]

Huh.  It's like the hypothetical stalemate post, except totally legit.

[Awaclus]

That was a really strange situation. I came to a point where i have to trash all my money, cause Rene Kuroi were able to play 2 possessions every turn. and due to the apprentices he was able to draw my whole deck every time. So it ended up with 2 decks without money and the guy who builds up some money again first will lose the game. So both checked through their turns. How to deal with such an situation?

I was in a situation like this with yed and we used the forum private messages to roll 1d1000 to determine which one of us resigns.

[Axxle]

Whoever's ahead:

1) Buy one copper or curse.
2) Trash it with Rats.
3) Repeat steps 1 and 2 until you run out the copper, rats, curse piles.

edit: Oh, Rene Kuroi didn't have a rats.  Nevermind then.

edit2: Kirian's right, she could have gained one on a possession turn.  So it is winnable!

[Kirian]

Whoever's ahead:

1) Buy one copper or curse.
2) Trash it with Rats.
3) Repeat steps 1 and 2 until you run out the copper, rats, curse piles.

edit: Oh, Rene Kuroi didn't have a rats.  Nevermind then.

S/he could have gott n one via Possession though right?

[GeoLib]

Whoever's ahead:

1) Buy one copper or curse.
2) Trash it with Rats.
3) Repeat steps 1 and 2 until you run out the copper, rats, curse piles.

edit: Oh, Rene Kuroi didn't have a rats.  Nevermind then.

edit2: Kirian's right, she could have gained one on a possession turn.  So it is winnable!

Better plan: tell your opponent that this is your strategy. Ask that they please resign so that neither of you have to sit through this.

[amalloy]

Whoever's ahead:

1) Buy one copper or curse.
2) Trash it with Rats.
3) Repeat steps 1 and 2 until you run out the copper, rats, curse piles.

edit: Oh, Rene Kuroi didn't have a rats.  Nevermind then.

edit2: Kirian's right, she could have gained one on a possession turn.  So it is winnable!

Better plan: tell your opponent that this is your strategy. Ask that they please resign so that neither of you have to sit through this.

You can't just do this, because if your deck becomes too full of Rats to play Possession frequently, your opponent gets the green light to start building back up to Provinces. Here, Apprentice provides a way to get rid of the excess Rats, so this game should be endable. But if you try just those steps 1-3 in a stalemate with no real trashing, I think you probably lose.

[Holger]

That was a really strange situation. I came to a point where i have to trash all my money, cause Rene Kuroi were able to play 2 possessions every turn. and due to the apprentices he was able to draw my whole deck every time. So it ended up with 2 decks without money and the guy who builds up some money again first will lose the game. So both checked through their turns. How to deal with such an situation?

I don't really see the problem here. Firstly, you both want to trash your Apprentices, which only help your opponent after turn 18. You (HvB) could only play a Possession about every second turn by then (you had 12 cards - 10 without Apprentices - and just one card draw; you don't want to hurt yourself with Apprentice). So Rene Kuroi only had to trash his useless Apprentices (by gaining a Rats from you) and then buy 2 or 3 Coppers to buy the remaining cheap VP cards, gaining twice as many as you would gain by possessing him. By the time he could play less than 1 Possession per turn (if this even happens), he would have enough of a lead to three-pile for a win.

[Stealth Tomato]

Huh.  It's like the hypothetical stalemate post, except totally legit.

You've never seen this in actual play? It's rare (I've probably come across it less than ten times ever), but I had it happen twice in one day once.

That was a really strange situation. I came to a point where i have to trash all my money, cause Rene Kuroi were able to play 2 possessions every turn. and due to the apprentices he was able to draw my whole deck every time. So it ended up with 2 decks without money and the guy who builds up some money again first will lose the game. So both checked through their turns. How to deal with such an situation?

I don't really see the problem here. Firstly, you both want to trash your Apprentices, which only help your opponent after turn 18. You (HvB) could only play a Possession about every second turn by then (you had 12 cards - 10 without Apprentices - and just one card draw; you don't want to hurt yourself with Apprentice). So Rene Kuroi only had to trash his useless Apprentices (by gaining a Rats from you) and then buy 2 or 3 Coppers to buy the remaining cheap VP cards, gaining twice as many as you would gain by possessing him. By the time he could play less than 1 Possession per turn (if this even happens), he would have enough of a lead to three-pile for a win.

I'm not convinced. No matter what you do, your deck is better for your opponent than it is for you. Say you execute that strategy... my response will be to use the occasional 11-card hand I get with your deck (!) to buy better card draw, which will allow me to play more Possessions, which will cause you to lose.

[Holger]

Huh.  It's like the hypothetical stalemate post, except totally legit.

You've never seen this in actual play? It's rare (I've probably come across it less than ten times ever), but I had it happen twice in one day once.

I haven't seen it happen yet either, it'd be interesting to see some (more) examples.

Edit: It would also be good to have an official or unofficial ruling on how a stalemate counts (a ruling more practical than Donald's "play forever", that is  ). I would consider it a tie, but unfortunately Goko doesn't allow agreed ties.

That was a really strange situation. I came to a point where i have to trash all my money, cause Rene Kuroi were able to play 2 possessions every turn. and due to the apprentices he was able to draw my whole deck every time. So it ended up with 2 decks without money and the guy who builds up some money again first will lose the game. So both checked through their turns. How to deal with such an situation?

I don't really see the problem here. Firstly, you both want to trash your Apprentices, which only help your opponent after turn 18. You (HvB) could only play a Possession about every second turn by then (you had 12 cards - 10 without Apprentices - and just one card draw; you don't want to hurt yourself with Apprentice). So Rene Kuroi only had to trash his useless Apprentices (by gaining a Rats from you) and then buy 2 or 3 Coppers to buy the remaining cheap VP cards, gaining twice as many as you would gain by possessing him. By the time he could play less than 1 Possession per turn (if this even happens), he would have enough of a lead to three-pile for a win.

I'm not convinced. No matter what you do, your deck is better for your opponent than it is for you. Say you execute that strategy... my response will be to use the occasional 11-card hand I get with your deck (!) to buy better card draw, which will allow me to play more Possessions, which will cause you to lose.

No, neither deck is notably better for the opponent if both players trash their apprentices with Rats (as they should, for just the reason that it only helps the opponent). You don't get an 11-card hand without Apprentice. (Also, you can never buy card draw if the opponent doesn't get more than 2-3 Coppers at one time; Vault and Nobles cost $6.)

Your argument might would apply if neither player had had a Rats at the time of the stalling, but hvb did have one.

Edit: hvb could have tried to force a stalemate by trashing his Rats before Rene could gain a Rats from it. But the game wasn't a stalemate at the time they stopped playing.

[Stealth Tomato]

No, neither deck is notably better for the opponent if both players trash their apprentices with Rats (as they should, for just the reason that it only helps the opponent). You don't get an 11-card hand without Apprentice. (Also, you can never buy card draw if the opponent doesn't get more than 2-3 Coppers at one time; Vault and Nobles cost $6.)

Your argument might would apply if neither player had had a Rats at the time of the stalling, but hvb did have one.

Edit: hvb could have tried to force a stalemate by trashing his Rats before Rene could gain a Rats from it. But the game wasn't a stalemate at the time they stopped playing.

Actually, using Rats makes it possible for Rene to (nearly) guarantee a win by running out the Rats, Estates, and Curses. By playing Rats on his Possession turns, he'd be able to run out that pile. Then all he needs to do is buy two Copper, wait for either player to pick up an Estate, then buy Curses and trash them with Rats (being sure to never keep more than two in his deck at a time).

(There are 7 Estates in the trash and 6 in their decks, which leaves one in the supply.)

[Holger]

No, neither deck is notably better for the opponent if both players trash their apprentices with Rats (as they should, for just the reason that it only helps the opponent). You don't get an 11-card hand without Apprentice. (Also, you can never buy card draw if the opponent doesn't get more than 2-3 Coppers at one time; Vault and Nobles cost $6.)

Your argument might would apply if neither player had had a Rats at the time of the stalling, but hvb did have one.

Edit: hvb could have tried to force a stalemate by trashing his Rats before Rene could gain a Rats from it. But the game wasn't a stalemate at the time they stopped playing.

Actually, using Rats makes it possible for Rene to (nearly) guarantee a win by running out the Rats, Estates, and Curses. By playing Rats on his Possession turns, he'd be able to run out that pile. Then all he needs to do is buy two Copper, wait for either player to pick up an Estate, then buy Curses and trash them with Rats (being sure to never keep more than two in his deck at a time).

(There are 7 Estates in the trash and 6 in their decks, which leaves one in the supply.)

This only works if Rene keeps an Apprentice and trashes almost all the Rats as he gains them (with 20 Rats in his deck, he couldn't play Possession reliably any more). And then it's essentially Axxle's solution as "fixed" by amalloy, I think:

Whoever's ahead:

1) Buy one copper or curse.
2) Trash it with Rats.
3) Repeat steps 1 and 2 until you run out the copper, rats, curse piles.

edit: Oh, Rene Kuroi didn't have a rats.  Nevermind then.

edit2: Kirian's right, she could have gained one on a possession turn.  So it is winnable!

Better plan: tell your opponent that this is your strategy. Ask that they please resign so that neither of you have to sit through this.

You can't just do this, because if your deck becomes too full of Rats to play Possession frequently, your opponent gets the green light to start building back up to Provinces. Here, Apprentice provides a way to get rid of the excess Rats, so this game should be endable. But if you try just those steps 1-3 in a stalemate with no real trashing, I think you probably lose.

(It doesn't matter if you empty Estates or Coppers as third pile, except Estate is much faster.)

This is indeed a safer way to win than "my" method; to clarify, I only gave mine as a maybe more intuitive way to see that the game is not at all stalled yet. And with it, Rene would even have had a very good chance to win if he'd had slightly fewer VPs than his opponent at the time they broke off.