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A Drowned Kernel

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Fan Expansion- Justice and Piety
« on: November 29, 2011, 05:37:58 pm »
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This idea has been kicking around in my head for awhile. I developed it when I misinterpreted the "Kingdom Challenge" aspect of the contest to mean "design 10 Kingdom cards" and not "design a set of 10 pre-existing cards". Since the cards are hear, I thought I'd throw them out there for some feedback. Keep in mind I haven't playtested these at all yet, so their is almost certainly some pricing issues.

I got the idea for these cards when after I played a large number of games in succession where victory went to the player who could choose to end the game on their turn, and I became interested in this aspect of Dominion Strategy- that is, controlling when the game ends. As such, these cards are designed with that idea in specific, with a few cards that more generally are about controlling the flow of the game for other players. I suppose the over-arching them is "control".

Beggar- $2
Action

+1 Card
+1 Action

You may trash this card. If you do, return all cards in the trash to the supply (including this one).


Guild Hall- $3
Action

Choose one: Place a guild hall token on a kingdom card supply pile that does not have one OR Remove a guild hall token from a supply pile OR $2.
_
While a guild hall token is on a supply pile, that pile does not count toward ending the game.


Holy Village-
$3
Action

+2 Actions

You may trash a card in your hand.


(Side note: I guess this on doesn't really fit the theme. I just want this card to exist, and the set needs a village.)


Bounty Hunter- $4
Action- Attack

$2

Each other player discards an attack card or reveals a hand with no attacks.


Exchange Market- $4
Action

Choose one: Place a token on the Exchange Market mat OR remove a token from the Exchange Market mat OR gain a card with cost up to the number of tokens on the Exchange Market mat.


(Side note: in case the wording doesn't make it obvious, there is a single communal Exchange Market mat. Also needs a better name. I originally called it "Embassy" but...)


Inquisition-
$5
Action

+1 Action

Place the Inquisition Marker on an Action Card supply pile other than Inquisition, or set it aside.
_
While the Inquistion Marker is on an Action Card supply pile, copies of that card may not be played (the Inquisition Marker begins the game set aside).


Raiders- $5
Action

+3 Cards

Trash a card from your hand. Trash cards a number of non-victory cards from the supply equal to half of its cost rounded down, split between any number of piles. Then trash a non-victory card from the supply.


Wilderness- $5
Victory

At the end of the game, if one or fewer piles in the supply are empty, this card is worth 6 VP. Otherwise it's worth 1 VP.


Army- $6
Action- Attack

Each other player reveals any number of cards from their hand whose combined cost is $6 or less, then discards the rest of their hand.


(Side note: This is one of the pricings I'm least certain about. I originally had it at $7, and I'm still not convinced it shouldn't be.)


Altar- $7
Action

Trash any number of cards from your hand. If the combined cost is $1 or more, +1 card, +1 action. If the combined cost is $4 or more, $2, +1 Buy. If the combined cost is $20 or more, at the end of this turn, the game ends.


(Side note: Yeah, this might be unplayable. It definitely needs playtesting to determine what the right cost for ending the game should be. Also, the middle bonus was originally "each other player gains a curse", but if it's an attack card then the interaction with moat and lighthouse gets weird- ending the game clearly affects the other players, but "the game ends except for people who revealed moats" is clearly insane. Mixing an attack effect and a non-attack player interaction effect on one card doesn't really work.)
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Jorbles

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Re: Fan Expansion- Justice and Piety
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2011, 06:28:16 pm »
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Some of these cards have really neat mechanics, I really like Altar, Raiders and Bounty Hunter, however some of these cards seem kinda whacky. I don't like cards that can prolong the game or mess with the trash so I'm not a big fan of Beggar (which even if you do like those things seems way underpriced at $2). Guild Hall seems like you could create an infinite stalemate with it by Guild Halling every pile faster than your opponent can remove them (with KC or TR or just a lot of actions), which is problematic (and boring).

Inquisition is an interesting card, but it doesn't seem very fun. Either you buy it and your opponent doesn't and you get to be mean to your opponent or you both buy it and you spend the game bouncing it back and forth. It just seems like it would make the game less fun.
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dondon151

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Re: Fan Expansion- Justice and Piety
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2011, 06:31:11 pm »
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I don't think Bounty Hunter is a very well designed attack. It essentially counters itself; the net effect is that players won't get it for fear of it getting discarded from their hands, and the player who did get it paid $4 for a terminal Silver.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Fan Expansion- Justice and Piety
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2011, 06:32:08 pm »
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Guild hall can't target Province or Colony, so it just prevents a three-pile ending. Upon reflection, Inquisition might need to lose the +1 action.
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Jorbles

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Re: Fan Expansion- Justice and Piety
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 06:37:57 pm »
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I don't think Bounty Hunter is a very well designed attack. It essentially counters itself; the net effect is that players won't get it for fear of it getting discarded from their hands, and the player who did get it paid $4 for a terminal Silver.
Could be better if it made opponents discard ALL attacks from their hands, it would be of little use on its own, but it would be an effective counter to attack heavy strategies, which would give it a purpose.
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dondon151

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Re: Fan Expansion- Justice and Piety
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 06:53:12 pm »
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But then the guy can just play his own Bounty Hunter, force you to discard your own attacks (including Bounty Hunter), and only exacerbate the problem.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Fan Expansion- Justice and Piety
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2011, 06:56:25 pm »
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Exchange Market looks too weak for its price; it really needs a secondary ability as well.
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Diving Pikachu

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Re: Fan Expansion- Justice and Piety
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2011, 08:54:44 pm »
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Holy Village- $3
Action

+2 Actions

You may trash a card in your hand.

This card's too unfocused, and it gives too much choice to the player. Take a look at all the non-terminal trashers which already exist. Perhaps you can can make it always trash 1 card, and/or make the type of card that you trash with it determine Holy Village's effect:

Holy Action Thing
Action
+1 Action
Trash 1 card in your hand. If it is a victory card, +2 cards. If it is a treasure or action, +1 Action.

Quote
Bounty Hunter- $4
Action- Attack

$2

Each other player discards an attack card or reveals a hand with no attacks.

I don't like how this would make the mild and optional attack cards so unreliable. It would also completely disincentivize depending on an attack's non-attacking benefits as part of your engine. What if the only draw card available is a Torturer? If you're gonna have Spies, Noble Brigands, Jesters, or Minions not worth buying, you might as well say "screw it", and build less interesting strategies like Big Money+Smithy. Remember, the worst punishment for using Attack Cards that Dominion has so far is Horse Traders, and that doesn't deny the attacker the benefits of AC's, and it sometimes doesn't even cancel out the harm of the attack either. Anyways, on a no-attacks board, this card would be superior to Duchess, with its guarantee of information on the other player's cards. On an board with attacks, this card would be as good as any $5-6 action. It hurts far worse than a Millitia, as you don't get to save your good cards when you discard.

Quote
Exchange Market- $4
Action

Choose one: Place a token on the Exchange Market mat OR remove a token from the Exchange Market mat OR gain a card with cost up to the number of tokens on the Exchange Market mat.

If everyone's not going to have their own Exchange Market mat, I suggest you look more closely at City and Trade Route for the treatment of a shared resource. Or Embargo for a shared harm. As it stands, Exchange Market is just too convoluted and would probably result in a zero-sum subgame of political squabbles and sabotage. Which would not feel like Dominion at all.

Quote

Inquisition-
$5
Action

+1 Action

Place the Inquisition Marker on an Action Card supply pile other than Inquisition, or set it aside.
_
While the Inquistion Marker is on an Action Card supply pile, copies of that card may not be played (the Inquisition Marker begins the game set aside).

Far too disruptive, especially when there's multiple viable strategies on the board. It's a worse rooster-block than an Embargo, as Embargo requires early and decisive play at significant opportunity costs, and still can be overcome or ignored on many boards. I don't like how Inquisition is the only counter to itself available. It can also make games pretty miserable for one player just by the results of a shuffle, or a race for first to obtain multiples. This card is anti-fun.

Quote
Wilderness- $5
Victory

At the end of the game, if one or fewer piles in the supply are empty, this card is worth 6 VP. Otherwise it's worth 1 VP.

Intriguing idea that incentivizes tempo control. But it has to somehow speed up the depletion of Provinces in order to work.
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rinkworks

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Re: Fan Expansion- Justice and Piety
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2011, 10:27:17 am »
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These cards have some truly great ideas in them.  My feedback:

Beggar- $2
Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may trash this card. If you do, return all cards in the trash to the supply (including this one).

Not convinced it'll work, but it's probably the best idea for trash interaction that I've seen.  Since the purpose is not to gain cards from the trash, you've managed to bypass the primary problem, which is that sometimes there are Colonies in the trash but mostly there are only Estates, Coppers, and Curses.  I still think there is a problem with it being too situational, though:  how often does three-piling happen as a result of trashing, as opposed to simply buying up cards?  Sometimes there isn't even a trasher available.  True, Beggar can trash itself, but since it bounces out of the trash the second you put it in, its power over even the beggar pile is extremely tiny.

But you can address that by making Beggar itself a trasher of more than just itself:

Beggar
$4 - Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.
You may trash this card.  If you do, return all cards in the trash to the supply (including this one).


Now you've got a card that fills the trash at will as well as being able to empty it.

Quote
Guild Hall- $3
Action
Choose one: Place a guild hall token on a kingdom card supply pile that does not have one OR Remove a guild hall token from a supply pile OR $2.
_
While a guild hall token is on a supply pile, that pile does not count toward ending the game.

Pretty slick idea.  I think it needs some constraints, though, or as someone else pointed out you could King's Court this and fill up the whole board with guild hall tokens and never end the game.  Maybe a limit on the number of tokens you can place.  I'm thinking maybe only 2.  I also think there ought to be a mechanism to speed up the game, too.  For starters, you could give out the +$2 bonus always.  Compared with other $3 terminal silvers (Woodcutter, Chancellor, Fortune Teller, Swindler) such a card seems quite reasonable.  That would encourage people to spend more money, thereby depleting piles faster, but I'm not sure if that's enough without playtesting.

Quote
Holy Village- $3
Action
+2 Actions
You may trash a card in your hand.

I like this as-is.  Diving Pikachu's recommendation that it mandate trashing a card is duly noted and is important to consider when playtesting.  But I guess my intuition is that it's fine the way it is, mostly because +2 Actions by itself is so incredibly weak:  weaker than Native Village, for instance, which only costs $2.  In other words, you're not going to buy this card unless you intend to make use of the trashing.  Or, I suppose, if you're incredibly desperate for a Village effect and don't mind that this one stinks and probably isn't going to be enough to get an engine to fire.

Quote
Bounty Hunter- $4
Action- Attack
$2
Each other player discards an attack card or reveals a hand with no attacks.

I don't like this at all.  For one thing, not every game has attacks, so if this is the only attack card in the kingdom, there's no reason to buy it.  But even so, when this is on the table, you don't buy attacks, and when nobody's buying attacks, you don't buy this either.  And if someone buys up attacks anyway, this attack will sometimes do nothing and sometimes hurt more than basically any other discard attack in the game.  So it's swingy, too.

Quote
Exchange Market- $4
Action
Choose one: Place a token on the Exchange Market mat OR remove a token from the Exchange Market mat OR gain a card with cost up to the number of tokens on the Exchange Market mat.

This is another cool idea.  I like the idea of a manipulable shared resource.  On the surface, it benefits all players equally (as does Trade Route), but the reality is that it benefits them differently based on what their strategies are, how many of these they have, how often they get through their decks, and so on.

But again, I think it needs tweaks.  For one thing, you'd have to play this 3-5 times before it becomes really interesting to anyone.  And who is going to spend 3-5 actions (in a game that might only last 15-20 turns!) building up something that will then be equally powerful to everyone?  Basically it would be a mistake to ever put a token on the mat, because then the benefit to your opponents comes free, while you had to spend a card slot and an action on it.

Instead, how about this?


Exchange Market
$4 - Action
Gain a card that costs +$ equal to the number of tokens on the Exchange Market mat.
Choose one: Place a token on the Exchange Market mat; or remove a token from the Exchange Market mat.
--
Setup:  At the start of the game, place three tokens on a shared Exchange Market mat.


I actually wonder if it wouldn't be better still to disallow the ability of removing a token.  In that case I'd start out at two tokens on the mat.  As is, I think there is still a real disincentive to boost it up to $5, because then your opponent could snipe a $5 card and drop it back to $4.  You could also provide a bonus when you boost the card that you don't get when you drop it, like a simple +$2 or something.

Anyway, I'm sure this idea can work with the right tweaks.  Very cool.

Quote
Inquisition- $5
Action
+1 Action
Place the Inquisition Marker on an Action Card supply pile other than Inquisition, or set it aside.
_
While the Inquistion Marker is on an Action Card supply pile, copies of that card may not be played (the Inquisition Marker begins the game set aside).

Like others who have replied, I'm not a fan of this card.  I don't think it's a tweakable thing, either:  it's just not very fun to be prevented from playing cards.  Plus, there are rules problems:  if you supposedly can't play Minion, what happens when Golem turns up two Minions?  Do you break Golem's rule, or this card's rule?  It's an unresolvable situation.

Quote
Raiders- $5
Action
+3 Cards
Trash a card from your hand. Trash cards a number of non-victory cards from the supply equal to half of its cost rounded down, split between any number of piles. Then trash a non-victory card from the supply.

I can't envision in advance how this one would play.  Normally I'd say supply trashers are too boring and situational to be worthwhile or fun, but I like the idea of tying the number you can trash to the sacrifice you make in your own deck.  And the fact that this is a useful card even without taking full advantage of the supply trashing means that this isn't going to be a situational card overall.  But it's impossible for me to predict how it will tend to play out.

Quote
Wilderness- $5
Victory
At the end of the game, if one or fewer piles in the supply are empty, this card is worth 6 VP. Otherwise it's worth 1 VP.

I like the idea of a victory card whose VP value fluctuates by the number of empty supplies.  I've been considering something like "Worth 2 VP per empty supply pile," for example, though I haven't worked with the idea long enough to determine which formula would work best.

This is a lot riskier than a simple formula, of course, because buying up the last Pearl Diver could turn your opponent's Provinces into Estates.  That's pretty serious -- I don't like how swingy that is, even if it's swingy in a way that a good player ought to be able to foresee and control.   Duchy-to-Estate might work better, or, alternately, a Estate-to-Duchy, going the other way.  I dunno.  By all means, experiment with the idea.

Quote
Army- $6
Action- Attack
Each other player reveals any number of cards from their hand whose combined cost is $6 or less, then discards the rest of their hand.

I love the idea of a discard attack that cares about card costs, but I'm very unconvinced that this is the right balance.  You're telling me if my hand is Throne Room, Conspirator, Silver, Estate, Estate, I get to keep only the Silver?  That's a shut-out, too powerful to price at any cost.  Seems like the cap needs to be much higher.  On the other hand, even as is, I could keep all of my cards if my hand were Gold-Copper-Copper-Copper-Copper, so I worry that the attack will be too swingy no matter what the cap is.  Some other nuance to the rule is needed here to regulate the card's power, but heck if I know what that might be.

Quote
Altar- $7
Action
Trash any number of cards from your hand. If the combined cost is $1 or more, +1 card, +1 action. If the combined cost is $4 or more, $2, +1 Buy. If the combined cost is $20 or more, at the end of this turn, the game ends.

I think you need to lose the "end the game" piece.  I mean, I see how that's how the card fits your theme, but I don't think it'll play out in a particularly satisfying way.  But I do like the idea of a trash-for-benefit card where the benefit not only escalates as you trash more and more valuable cards but broadens as well.  Transmute is sort of like this, except that it looks at the type of card you trash, rather than its cost (which is what Salvager, Apprentice, Bishop, and Trader look at).  This card sort of combines principles of both to make a new card that is its own thing.  I don't know if this is the right set of limits and bonuses, but the concept is sound.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: Fan Expansion- Justice and Piety
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2011, 04:39:42 pm »
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First off, thanks for the feedback! So here's the first round of revisions. I recently moved to a new city and don't currently have any friends nearby who are Dominion junkies like me, so it's unlikely I'll get a chance to playtest these anytime soon. But if anyone is inspired to try them out themselves, I'd be thrilled to hear the results!

Okay, first off:

Bounty Hunter and Inquisition- these seem pretty universally unpopular. I don't know what to do with them yet, but the more I think about it, the more Inquisition seems unsalvageable. Bounty Hunter might be rescued, though.

Guild Hall- $3
Action

$2
Choose one: Place a guild hall token on a kingdom card supply pile that does not have one OR Remove a guild hall token from a supply pile.
_
While a guild hall token is on a supply pile, that pile does not count toward ending the game.


There was some concern about Guild Hall leading to endless stalemates, but the wording is intended to indicate that only one token can be placed on a pile, and they can only be placed on the ten kingdom cards (eleven with YW). If I screwed up the wording, I apologize for the confusion.


Exchange Market- $4
Action

Choose one: Gain a card with cost up to the number of tokens on the Exchange Market mat, then place a token on the mat OR +1 action, +Cards equal to half the number of tokens on the Exchange Market mat, then remove a token from the mat.


This might be nuts, but I wanted their to be an incentive to removing tokens besides screwing over your opponents, and I thought it would be interesting if that incentive got better the more tokens their were. The card becoming a powerful cards/action engine at high number of tokens hopefully provides a counterbalance to players using it to gain Provinces.


Altar- $7
Action- Attack

Trash any number of cards from your hand. If the combined cost is $1 or more, +1 card, +1 action. If the combined cost is $5 or more, each other player gains a curse. If the combined cost is $12 or more, choose a kingdom card supply pile: trash all cards in that pile.


This is a little less extreme than the first version, and makes it a curse-giver, which I liked. I'm not giving up entirely on the "end the game" mechanic though.

Wilderness, Army, Holy Village: Without some playtesting or at least some more thought, I'm not ready to make any definite revisions to these ones.

New Card: Probably a replacement for Inquistion, although the role is drastically different.

Museum- $5
Action

$2
+1 Buy

Reveal the top card of your deck. If that card's supply pile is empty, +1 action and put it into your hand. Otherwise, either discard it or put it back on your deck.
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Diving Pikachu

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Re: Fan Expansion- Justice and Piety
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2011, 01:12:44 am »
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Museum's idea is fantastic. Definitely something I'd want to playtest. I wonder if the activated Museum is a bit too powerful, however.
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Re: Fan Expansion- Justice and Piety
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2011, 02:28:08 am »
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I don't have the time to comment all cards. And most things have been said already.
But I like to comment one card.

Quote
Inquisition- $5
Action
+1 Action
Place the Inquisition Marker on an Action Card supply pile other than Inquisition, or set it aside.
_
While the Inquistion Marker is on an Action Card supply pile, copies of that card may not be played (the Inquisition Marker begins the game set aside).

Like others who have replied, I'm not a fan of this card.  I don't think it's a tweakable thing, either:  it's just not very fun to be prevented from playing cards.  Plus, there are rules problems:  if you supposedly can't play Minion, what happens when Golem turns up two Minions?  Do you break Golem's rule, or this card's rule?  It's an unresolvable situation.

I had a similar idea of this one.
I think there are 3 problems:
  • Theoretically preventing cards being played until the end of the game: I think you can solve this by make this a duration card. So you have two premises. While this card is in play and a marker is on a supply, you can't play the card.
  • Free choice of the "banned" card: I think this might be too powerful. So, matching the duration card suggestion above, let a card from your hand set aside with the duration card, like a Haven. This card can't be played while the duration card is in play. That's another handicap for that powerful card.
  • As already mentioned, preventing from playing has rules problems: I think that's the easiest part. You have only to change to text to "the card has no effects"

So you can make it (I don't know if the wording is right):
Inquisition $5
Action - Duration (- Attack?)
+1 card
+1 action
Set aside a card from your hand face up. At the start of your next turn, put it into your hand.
Whenever a player plays a copy of this card while it is set aside like this, it has no effect.
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