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[guided]

See turn 10 of this game: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/29/game-20111129-125341-55fad286.html

— led's turn 10 —
led plays a Develop.
... trashing a Council Room.
... gaining a Border Village and put it on the deck.
... ... gaining an Inn.
... ... ... shuffling 5 cards into the draw pile.
... ... revealing a Watchtower.
... ... putting the Border Village on the deck.
... gaining a Feast and put it on the deck.

Develop puts the gained BV on top of the deck, then Inn shuffles the deck, then Watchtower digs through to find the shuffled BV and puts it back on top of the deck.

To my knowledge this bug only exists with a specific 4-card combo: Develop/Border Village/Inn/Watchtower. I've tried other permutations (swap Develop with Royal Seal, or try to use Watchtower alone as the only top-decker), and they don't exhibit the bug. i.e. I am not offered the choice to reveal Watchtower for BV after shuffling it.

There's a related and more general Develop/BV/Watchtower problem, in that Watchtower will dig down into the draw pile to find BV in a known location, with one or more cards on top of it (e.g. by gaining a Mandarin as the bonus card after dropping some treasures on an earlier Black Market play, or simply top-decking the bonus card with Watchtower so that BV is the 2nd card on the stack). Donald has ruled on BGG that this probably violates lose-track, though he did hedge that he might change his mind whenever lose-track is finalized.

[Kirian]

For something that will come up in one out of 570 million games, I suspect it's not a high priority bug. :p

(One in 3.7 million for just Develop/BV/Watchtower.)

(Odds of winning Powerball:  one in 200 million.)

[DStu]

I'm still trying to understand what exactly happens and what may happen, but councilroom has also a problem with this log:

Code: [Select]

Error annotating game, tell rrenaud@gmail.com!: foo?
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-125341-55fad286.html

Edit: So the problem is (in this situation) that, when gaining the Inn, you can not react with Watchtower, or you can react, but the the reaction is applied to the BV and not to the Inn?

And this happens only when you gain the BV via Develop?

Develop with Royal Seal

You mean WT with Royal Seal, or?

[guided]

I didn't say it was a high priority bug. But if it indicates a more general problem (and since I don't know the cause of the bug I don't know whether it does) then maybe Doug will be more interested in fixing it.

Edit: So the problem is (in this situation) that, when gaining the Inn, you can not react with Watchtower, or you can react, but the the reaction is applied to the BV and not to the Inn?

The problem is that reacting to the BV with Watchtower after shuffling for the Inn actually works, pulling the BV out of the shuffled deck and putting it on top. Even if I'm allowed to react with Watchtower here (which is technically correct), the effect should fizzle rather than actually digging through the deck to find the BV.

To answer your question more directly, I am able to react with Watchtower to BV or Inn or both, and I have some slightly-incorrectly limited choices of which order to react to them in, but not in a way that matters much. I'm not bug-reporting any limitations of when I'm allowed to reveal Watchtower; I'm bug-reporting the phenomenon of deck-diving for a shuffled card.

You mean WT with Royal Seal, or?

isotropic has a limitation where I'm only allowed to reveal Watchtower at most once for each card. Technically in a FtF game I could reveal it once, top-deck the card, then reveal it again to trash the card, but I can't do that on isotropic. So I can't test the idea of using Watchtower to top-deck the BV, then gaining an Inn and shuffling that, then using Watchtower again to try to top-deck the BV again. Instead I tested the same idea using Royal Seal to top-deck the BV before gaining the Inn, planning to reveal Watchtower after shuffling, and isotropic correctly does not let me top-deck the shuffled BV in that case. (Indeed it does not let me reveal Watchtower at all, which is technically incorrect but who cares? since the effect should fizzle anyway.)

[AJD]

isotropic has a limitation where I'm only allowed to reveal Watchtower at most once for each card. Technically in a FtF game I could reveal it once, top-deck the card, then reveal it again to trash the card, but I can't do that on isotropic.

I think Donald ruled <a href="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1028.msg16184#msg16184">over in the Rules forum</a> that this doesn't work in a FtF game; top-decking it once causes the Watchtower to lose track when you try to reveal it the second time.

[guided]

isotropic has a limitation where I'm only allowed to reveal Watchtower at most once for each card. Technically in a FtF game I could reveal it once, top-deck the card, then reveal it again to trash the card, but I can't do that on isotropic.

I think Donald ruled <a href="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1028.msg16184#msg16184">over in the Rules forum</a> that this doesn't work in a FtF game; top-decking it once causes the Watchtower to lose track when you try to reveal it the second time.

Fair point. Anyway, the idea is I used Royal Seal to see if there was a bug there similar to the Develop bug, and there was no bug. Watchtower correctly loses track of the gained card once Royal Seal moves it.

[DStu]

So (next try) if top-decking causes the WT to loose track, then reshuffling into your draw should also cause it to lose track.

[guided]

So (next try) if top-decking causes the WT to loose track, then reshuffling into your draw should also cause it to lose track.

Critically, top-decking with Develop (or via a Sea Hag attack) does not cause the WT to lose track. Develop and Sea Hag gain cards straight to the top of the draw pile, and Watchtower "expects" the gained card to be wherever it was gained to (not necessarily the discard pile). The card FAQ for Watchtower makes this pretty clear, using the example of Mine. Donald has confirmed on BGG that Watchtower is meant to work against Sea Hag, and by extension could be used to immediately trash cards you gain with Develop.

What causes WT to lose track is when something moves a card after it is gained. Royal Seal can move a gained card from the discard pile to the draw pile, and at that moment WT loses track. Inn shuffling the deck is also a movement effect, so WT should lose track there too. Do you still have a question about how things should work?

Another parallel issue: Donald tentatively ruled on BGG that you lose track of any top-decked cards that get covered up by other top-decked cards. i.e. you can only "keep track" of the very top card of the draw pile. He did hedge that he might change his mind when lose-track is finalized, but it seems like a solid ruling to me since there's no limit to how deeply a card could get buried (e.g. by gaining a Mandarin as BV's bonus card).