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[shraeye]

vote: shraeye

I don't believe he is confused about why no-lynching is bad, that's faked which is only explainable by him being scum(mafia).

I'm not confused; I just disagree.  I think people have habits of oversimplifying things, and opinions on no-lynch and random-lynch are a symptom of that.

I did not oversimplify it, I explained it very expanded it is manifestly better to lynch today, if we no lynch we do not gain any lynches and our final lynch will actually be from a larger pool of unkowns.

Just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean I'm confused.  I understand what you're saying with the argument that involves lynch-pools and knowns, and MYLO/LYLO.  I just disagree with the conclusion that it's always manifestly better to lynch day1. 

Mafia is a game of human interaction, and when we simplify it to probabilities and step-by-step outlines of cases involving xTown/yMafia, we are ignoring all of the hunches/evidence/bias and stuff that can sway decisions.  And those variables can be affected by nolynching and stuff. 

There are multiple things to consider, and it's not a cut-and-dry "nolynch on day 1 is always the worst" situation.  So you still gonna vote me for disagreeing with you?  Or is there something else you wanna talk about?

[shraeye]

I like the soft deadline idea. I've seen very little this game that's voteworthy for me yet, but I do have a pretty strong town read on shraeye and a mostly town read on DeDe, taking a stance on WW seemed like a good town move for a newbie. Volt laying at this plan and explaining the claiming business to the newbies might be a point in his favor, but scum would also want to appear this helpful, so I'll keep an eye on him.

It's not quite fair to say "scum would want to be helpful".  Town would as well.  In fact, I joined this game to try to have fun/be helpful/introduce newbies to mafia.  Hopefully the other vets did too.  I would expect all vets to be helpful in their own way.

On the Shraeye situation:
It is strange that he is a vet and yet has so many odd questions; especially since he posted a helpful bit at the beginning.
Shraeye, where are you?

I get busy in real life a lot.  If all newbies leave this game with a healthy distrust of people's "they're not here; they must be scum" arguments, I will consider it a success. 

Also, the questions are a nice way to kickstart a game.  They're gameable by scum, but so is voting. You should feel free to reach your own conclusions about answers to my questions; but once I have the answers, and I've made conclusions about them worth sharing, i'll share them.  That's what I do.

[mcmcsalot]

I was saying I think scum would want to sound confident in their statement about the setup(incorrectly) instead of soundin confused by it. Because the confident but wrong would be more likely to get town cred from the vets.

So I mean to say would scum want to sound overly confused or would they want to sound confident.

As to the other question, I think there is a decent chance he's scum with a vet. I need to reread the answers to see who exactly said what but I would want to look at the vets answers as if I am right that would be an awkward thing to respond too.

[mcmcsalot]

Hate that point in newbie games where I think to myself alright I want to lynch one of these people and then I realize they are all the newbies.

unvote shraeye's most recent post is giving me more of a town vibe, I still would lynch adk(tough to read) ww(the potential coaching) and ichi(gut scum read possibly carried over from dw2)

[shraeye]

shraeye, I have no idea what you mean. Could you point me to the post where someone talks about Witherweaver's error before mcmc?

mcmc is the first person to TALK about wither's setup stuff.  But he's not the first to analyze it.

The original post seemed pretty clear.. someone said Mcmc was the first to post something reading into my original setup-error post, and Shraeye questioned it, to this end.  What's the significance of bringing up that someone can be the first to talk about something, but not the first to analyze it?  That other people are reading and thinking, but not posting?  That seems sort of, like, an empty statement.  Just saying stuff to have other kinds of tangential conversations.  hence, spreading confusion.

Cool; I finally can talk about this potentially confusing bit.  mcmc was the first to post stuff regarding Wither's question, but he didn't actually analyze it.  He just asked people what the odds were that Wither was scum with a vet partner.  Ichi is the first person to analyze it, and then mcmc agrees with him. 

Asking direct questions at a player and following up the answers is a classic technique.  But it is substantially different from asking "hey, who thinks this is scummy?" and then seeing who agrees before following up with your analysis on a subject.  The first is one town loves.  The second is one that scum loves.

________________

I think that it's a fabulous idea to lynch a vet, and mcmc's unvote on me is super suspicious.  I changed basically none of my opinions.  Before, mcmc was voting for me because I was disagreeing with his ideas on no-lynch, and because he says I was asking lots of questions and waiting to represent things how I wanted, which is something scum would love.
Here be the three posts I want to cite:

vote: shraeye

I don't believe he is confused about why no-lynching is bad, that's faked which is only explainable by him being scum(mafia).

I'm not confused; I just disagree.  I think people have habits of oversimplifying things, and opinions on no-lynch and random-lynch are a symptom of that.

I did not oversimplify it, I explained it very expanded it is manifestly better to lynch today, if we no lynch we do not gain any lynches and our final lynch will actually be from a larger pool of unkowns.

It seems like Shraeye is being very aggressive and spreading confusion.  Maybe this is just his play style.. I'm not sure.  My read right now is scum.

He's asking a lot of questions and analyzing people's motivations, which I read as a more towny trait. shraeye's probably my strongest town read so far.

But he is generating reactions as he wants. It is something I follow quite a bit, scum wants to wait for lots of posts, and then analyze them and pressure people after the fact when he can represent it the way he wants and react to it appropriately.

Well, okay then. I have been thinking...Unvote.Vote: Delirious Deleuze because has he even voted?

What is your opinion of shraeye, do you agree or disagree with my points against him?

Then my "Recent posts" that he cites as towny can be summed up as follows:
#200: I'm still not confused about no-lynch; I still just disagree; I still think you were oversimplifying it.
#201: Sure, asking questions is gameable by scum, but it's still what I'm going to do because I find it useful.  Feel free to make your own opinions.

So I just reiterate my position on the two things that mcmc says I was scummily doing (and added some bit about "absence doesn't imply scum" and "vets should be helpful").  And somehow this reverses mcmc's opinion of me entirely.  That's baloney.

MY impression is that he just got cold feet on pushing the shraeye-lynch once people started expressing townreads on me.

[Witherweaver]

Hate that point in newbie games where I think to myself alright I want to lynch one of these people and then I realize they are all the newbies.

unvote shraeye's most recent post is giving me more of a town vibe, I still would lynch adk(tough to read) ww(the potential coaching) and ichi(gut scum read possibly carried over from dw2)

So it's probably bad form to be suspicious of someone just because they're suspicious of you, but this potential coaching thing feels like grasping at straws.  What's more likely, that I'm going to open up my first game with an elaborate ruse with questionable payoff, or that I made a simple error of not reading through everything carefully?

What would be the benefit of me being coached to say that?  To make everything think I'm town?  It would seem a lot more effective and safe to hang out and observe.

And what vet would it be?  You said Shraeye was town, and obviously you don't think it's you, so that only leaves Faust and Voltaire.  (I'm assuming the last four on the list of signups are the vets.)

[mcmcsalot]

Ww I totally agree with you that it's there a good chance it means nothing. Notice I am not voting you(meaning given the evidence I am not convinced your the best lynch)

Shraeye your disagreement to my no -lynch stance still frustrates me because I do not believe I ever said no-lynching day 1 is always a bad idea I said it is manifestly a bad idea for today. But I guess I can understand the disagreement of blanket statements like nolynch=bad.

You have become more present and in the moment than before so I unvoted.

@ww just read the end of your post, I said shraeye was townier, but my guess for your partner would be volt followed by shraeye, again this is just speculation as it's all we have to go on so far.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay actually back to vote: shraeye his most recent attack of me saying he can finally respond to the question(since I answered) is extremely similar to what raerae did to Adk in a very recent game where she was scum. My answer didn't really matter to shraeye's post, he just waned to wait to attack me till after I posted.

Sorry my thought are all jumbled, phone posting at work is rough.

[Teproc]

Vote Count 1.5:

shraeye (2): Witherweaver, mcmcsalot
Delirious Deleuze (1): Nik
Witherweaver (1): Delirious Deleuze
Ichimaru Gin (1): faust

Not Voting (4): shraeye, A Drowned Kernel, Ichimaru Gin, Voltaire

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 12:00 p.m. on April 1, 2014.

[shraeye]

Okay actually back to vote: shraeye his most recent attack of me saying he can finally respond to the question(since I answered) is extremely similar to what raerae did to Adk in a very recent game where she was scum. My answer didn't really matter to shraeye's post, he just waned to wait to attack me till after I posted.

Sorry my thought are all jumbled, phone posting at work is rough.

Your answer did matter.

[shraeye]

And my reasons for voting you is your decision to call me towny for reiterating the exact same opinions that made you call me scummy earlier.

You have become more present and in the moment than before so I unvoted.

@ww just read the end of your post, I said shraeye was townier, but my guess for your partner would be volt followed by shraeye, again this is just speculation as it's all we have to go on so far.

"more present and in the moment???"  what does that even mean?

[mcmcsalot]

It means you are here responding to things as they happen instead of responding to things long after they have been discussed.

[shraeye]

so you're saying that it's scummy to talk about stuff that's passed.

but because I showed up in the thread and starting commenting on new stuff, that you read it as towny...despite the fact that I was ALSO still talking about the old stuff that you found me scummy for.  And still saying the same things as I was saying before.

That still seems super suspicious.

[A Drowned Kernel]

FYI it was AndrewisFTTW that raerae set up in that game, not me, though I do remember it and I do see the similarity here. shraeye, what specifically about mc's response do find objectionable- that he back off on voting for you?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Ichi, you've done the mafia-games before, yes?

Yeah. I've played one game before. Dynasty Warrriors II, if you want to see my one game scum meta 

So yeah, I'm kind of a pseudo-newb I guess.

Haven't really caught up on all the stuff posted while I was asleep, but I have work now. So I should be back in about 5 hours with more to say.

I am more suspicious of mcmc though.

[mcmcsalot]

so you're saying that it's scummy to talk about stuff that's passed.

but because I showed up in the thread and starting commenting on new stuff, that you read it as towny...despite the fact that I was ALSO still talking about the old stuff that you found me scummy for.  And still saying the same things as I was saying before.

That still seems super suspicious.

I do not see how it's suspicious to think your scummy for posting lots of questions directed at stuff that happened a long time ago and being generally confusing(reference to the no-lynch stuff) then to find you towny as you began to post more regularly and have a solid presence(forcing genuine reactions) as well my understanding you saying no-lynch isn't always bad and not just disagreeing with me that it is bad this game.

[shraeye]

I do not see how it's suspicious to think your scummy for posting lots of questions directed at stuff that happened a long time ago

Those questions about stuff "a long time ago".  They were asked a long time ago.  I looked at them, and the biggest gap between event that happened, and shraeye's question about it was ~20 hours.  Here is the time gap for all the topics I talked about scummily in your eyes:
~20 hrs, ~12 hrs, ~12 hrs, ~9 hrs, ~3 hrs.

The set of posts that you found towny this morning were referring to things that happened ~33hrs pre-post, ~43 hrs pre-post, ~10 hrs pre-post, ~16 hours pre-post. 

So I have no IDEA what. the. jack. you are talking about.  I am in no way more "in the moment" now than I was then.  You're just making a hack-job of pretending to have a reason for reads.  Scum. Found.

vote: mcmc

[mcmcsalot]

Omgus 

[mcmcsalot]

Shraeye is being overly difficult and picking things apart like crazy in the way he wants it to be portrayed, this is what scum does. We see ash do it all the time. He's abrasive and strong willed an it's a great way to get someone mislynched.

[shraeye]

Haha, haha.  That's like a textbook ad hominem.  How crazy/abrasive/strong-willed I am is irrelevant to my reasons for voting you.

Which are solid reasons.  Which you aren't refuting.

[mcmcsalot]

Haha, haha.  That's like a textbook ad hominem.  How crazy/abrasive/strong-willed I am is irrelevant to my reasons for voting you.

Which are solid reasons.  Which you aren't refuting.

Your reasons are that my reasons for voting and unvoting your are bad therefor I am scum. Nothing to refute other than your wrong and you are simply finding me scummy for having an easily changeable mind(oh and everything I say is always scummy to people)

[faust]

Not sure what to do with this fight. Not sure I understand it as well. mcmc, shraeye, could you sum up why think the respective other is scum?

I have shraeye as slight town and mcmc as null read at the moment.

[shraeye]

Sure; mcmc's unvote of me was really suspicious.  I pointed out how his voting for me was because of my question-asking method, and what he supposed was feigned confusion about no-lynching because I was disagreeing that it was bad.  When I showed up today with more posts, mcmc said I now looked towny. 

But the content of today's early posts were more of the same; I said I was going to keep asking questions because it works for me, and I said that I still disagreed with his oversimplification of the no-lynch situation.

So I pointed out that mcmc found my posts on the 26th of march scummy, and my posts on the 28th of march towny, despite the fact that they held the same information.  Mcmc's response was terrible.  He now says that the reason I looked towny this morning is because I "seem more present and in the moment" (a direct quote).  Earlier when he found me scummy it was for "for posting lots of questions directed at stuff that happened a long time ago and being generally confusing" (a direct quote).

So I went back and looked at both days.  I showed that on both the 26th and the 28th, I was talking about things that had happened within similar timeframes.  In fact, if anything, the stuff I posted this morning was about topics that were older than the stuff I posted on the 26th.  So I'm being LESS "in the moment" today.

Nothing mcmc is saying checks out.  It's apparent to me that these 'reads' are phony-baloney.  I surmise that he had a scumread on me for stretchy reasons.  When I started fighting back, he tried to placate me by calling me town.  When I called him out on having fishy reads, he manufactured a reason that the facts don't back up.

[mcmcsalot]

I find shraeye scummy because I think he asked me to answer a question and then respond with "oh look how scummy mcmc is being" I don't think he really talked about why my response was scummy. I also think he is being overly difficult and uncharacteristicly abrasive. I think he has seen how easy of a mislynch I am and is trying to push it through. I genuinely don't see how posting my reads and thought on him are "phoney-baloney"(direct quote...) and how that makes me scum. There is a chance shraeye is town and I am just the worst player ever and should shut my mouth and stop giving reads because they make no sense and I'm confusing, but I junk more likely shraeye is scum was quiet during the beginning of the day an waited till I started giving some reads and posting some thoughts, once he found something he could jump on and make sound scummy(my read on him and unvote) he went after me hard.

[Delirious Deleuze]

I don't feel shraeye is being up realistically or uncharacteristically abrasive. He posted a bunch of questions all at once because he wasn't active until then. He answered direct questions people posted to him, and continued with questions of his own.

He even explains why he is overly questioning things as a good starting point.

He asks MCMC to answer a few questions and it's only at this point that MCMC really starts lashing out and claiming shraeye was being scummy.

I find shraeye scummy because I think he asked me to answer a question and then respond with "oh look how scummy mcmc is being" I don't think he really talked about why my response was scummy. I also think he is being overly difficult and uncharacteristicly abrasive. I think he has seen how easy of a mislynch I am and is trying to push it through. I genuinely don't see how posting my reads and thought on him are "phoney-baloney"(direct quote...) and how that makes me scum. There is a chance shraeye is town and I am just the worst player ever and should shut my mouth and stop giving reads because they make no sense and I'm confusing, but I junk more likely shraeye is scum was quiet during the beginning of the day an waited till I started giving some reads and posting some thoughts, once he found something he could jump on and make sound scummy(my read on him and unvote) he went after me hard.

Which is kind of ironic because MCMC asked shraeye questions and then responded by calling him scummy for his aggressive responses and questions. It feels like MCMC is just trying to take pressure off himself.

I really don't see anything particularly weird about Shraeyes responses and questions, but MCMCs response was quite defensive. Shraeye is right that the Unvote was out of places specially given that when shraeye asked more questions, he began to call him scummy.