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Author Topic: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?  (Read 6801 times)

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Matt_Arnold

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Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« on: November 29, 2011, 12:37:34 pm »
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When going for a Duke victory, should you buy up all the Duchies first?  Or all the Dukes? Or alternate between them? Or buy four Duchies, then all Dukes, then the rest of the Duchies?
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michaeljb

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Re: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2011, 01:34:53 pm »
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The simplest answer that will be the way to go the vast majority of the time is Duchies first. If it's close to the endgame you may want to start Dukes with 1 or 2 Duchies left in the Supply, but you usually want all the Duchies first.
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Davio

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Re: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2011, 09:01:34 am »
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It all depends on your opponent.

If he isn't bothering with your strategy at all, you should probably buy all the Duchies first. This not only denies him Duchies in the endgame, it also gives you maximum points for Dukes.

Usually, your opponent isn't that oblivious and he will buy a couple of Duchies. In this case you still need to buy Duchies first and get the split in your favour, like 5-3 or even 6-2. If you are going for the Duke/Duchy combo, your strategy should focus about getting to $5 consistently. In your case, it's better to get two $5 hands than one $8 and one $2, which is better for a Province player. If you can't accomplish this better than your opponent, you should wonder if it was the right thing to do.


On the other hand, if you're in the end game and want to scrape as much points as possible, you should buy 3 Duchies first and then alternate between buying Dukes and Duchies.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2011, 09:05:36 am »
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On the other hand, if you're in the end game and want to scrape as much points as possible, you should buy 3 Duchies first and then alternate between buying Dukes and Duchies.

Technically, you should probably buy 4 Duchies first, then alternate.
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Davio

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Re: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2011, 09:27:03 am »
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On the other hand, if you're in the end game and want to scrape as much points as possible, you should buy 3 Duchies first and then alternate between buying Dukes and Duchies.

Technically, you should probably buy 4 Duchies first, then alternate.
It doesn't really matter points-wise.

Going for 3 Duchies first gets you 3-6-9-12-16 points.
Going for 4 Duchies first gets you 3-6-9-12-16 points.

Although I could understand the importance of denying your opponents them in which case getting 4 is better than getting 3.
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meshuggah42

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Re: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2011, 10:06:43 am »
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I recently played a game involving Dukes, and I must say that Crossroads works wonders with this strategy. If you have enough money in your deck (and preferably some non-terminal +buy sources like Festival or Market) you can always buy Crossroads with less than 5$ and sometimes even hit 10$ so you can buy double-Duchy (or double-Duke).
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SwitchedFromStarcraft

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Re: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2011, 10:22:31 am »
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On the other hand, if you're in the end game and want to scrape as much points as possible, you should buy 3 Duchies first and then alternate between buying Dukes and Duchies.

Technically, you should probably buy 4 Duchies first, then alternate.
It doesn't really matter points-wise.

Going for 3 Duchies first gets you 3-6-9-12-16 points.
Going for 4 Duchies first gets you 3-6-9-12-16 points.

Although I could understand the importance of denying your opponents them in which case getting 4 is better than getting 3.

Have I missed something?  If you have 4 duchies, and then buy Dukes, wouldn't it go 4-8-12 etc?
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2011, 10:37:27 am »
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On the other hand, if you're in the end game and want to scrape as much points as possible, you should buy 3 Duchies first and then alternate between buying Dukes and Duchies.

Technically, you should probably buy 4 Duchies first, then alternate.
It doesn't really matter points-wise.

Going for 3 Duchies first gets you 3-6-9-12-16 points.
Going for 4 Duchies first gets you 3-6-9-12-16 points.

Although I could understand the importance of denying your opponents them in which case getting 4 is better than getting 3.

Have I missed something?  If you have 4 duchies, and then buy Dukes, wouldn't it go 4-8-12 etc?

Your Duchies are worth points too.
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Reyk

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Re: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2011, 11:01:08 am »
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On the other hand, if you're in the end game and want to scrape as much points as possible, you should buy 3 Duchies first and then alternate between buying Dukes and Duchies.

Technically, you should probably buy 4 Duchies first, then alternate.
It doesn't really matter points-wise.

Going for 3 Duchies first gets you 3-6-9-12-16 points.
Going for 4 Duchies first gets you 3-6-9-12-16 points.

Although I could understand the importance of denying your opponents them in which case getting 4 is better than getting 3.

Have I missed something?  If you have 4 duchies, and then buy Dukes, wouldn't it go 4-8-12 etc?

It's like this:
3-6-9-12(Duchy)-16(Duke)
3-6-9-12(Duke)-15(Duchy) +1 for your Duke = 16

But really: All the math on alternating is not relevant in Praxis. It's almost always "Duchies first".
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SwitchedFromStarcraft

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Re: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2011, 12:54:54 pm »
+1

On the other hand, if you're in the end game and want to scrape as much points as possible, you should buy 3 Duchies first and then alternate between buying Dukes and Duchies.

Technically, you should probably buy 4 Duchies first, then alternate.
It doesn't really matter points-wise.

Going for 3 Duchies first gets you 3-6-9-12-16 points.
Going for 4 Duchies first gets you 3-6-9-12-16 points.

Although I could understand the importance of denying your opponents them in which case getting 4 is better than getting 3.

Have I missed something?  If you have 4 duchies, and then buy Dukes, wouldn't it go 4-8-12 etc?

Your Duchies are worth points too.

Respectfully, I submit that Dukes are worthless without Duchies.  The card text reads: Worth 1 VP per duchy you have.  So if your have trashed your opening 3 estates, and buy a Duchy as your first "new" victory card, you have no VP.

Given that, why would you not accrue as many Duchies as possible before buying any Dukes? Here's why I would, and I'm open to counterarguments (I acknowledge that later in the game, opportunity costs come in to play, but assume the basic circumstances exist to make a Duke/Duchy strategy viable):
1) If contested for the duchies, I'll want as many as possible.
2) If duchies are uncontested, each Duke is then (obviously) more valuable
3) My opponent, having lost the race for the duchies, may decide to buy Dukes to keep them from me. This will only magnify my edge, because if he's buying Dukes, he's not buying Provinces, he's helping empty the 2nd pile, he's wasting turns/buys, he's clogging his deck, and receiving fewer (or no) VPs for the trouble. All his later turns will be limping with less money, and if he buys estates, he's helping me with a third pile ending.

I acknowledge that racing for the Dukes with fewer (or none) of the duchies is suboptimal, and may not be likely for an opponent with average or better skills, but if it does happen it would likely be because I've created the possibility. It's another example of doing whatever I can to increase the possibility of my win, even if that increase is slight.  In poker, EV x volume = profit.  That is, the Expected Value of a given play, even when small, becomes significant when multiplied by many iterations.

The math (if I've not messed up) is as follows.  The first set of 3 columns is for an all duchy procurement.  Second set of 3 columns represents the strategy of alternating duchies with dukes, beginning immediately after the firsty Duchy. Third set of columns represents getting to 4 duchies, then alternating. (Let Dy = duchy, Dk = Duke.  GC = Green Card)

Holding     VP/GC    VP/$ Spent    Holding        VP/GC               VP/$                 Holding                 VP/GC             VP/$
Dy               3            0.6
2 Dy            3            0.6          Dy, Dk        4/2=2            4/10 =  0.4                                               
3 Dy            3            0.6          2Dy, Dk       8/3=2.66       8/15 = 0.533                       
4 Dy            3            0.6          2Dy, 2Dk     10/4=2.5      10/20 = 0.5           3Dy, Dk                  12/4=3          0.6
5 Dy            3            0.6          3Dy, 2Dk     15/5=3         15/25 = 0.6           4Dy, Dk                  16/5=3.2        0.64
6 Dy            3            0.6          3Dy, 3Dk     18/6=3          18/30 = 0.6          5Dy, Dk(=4Dy,2Dk)   20/6=3.33      0.667
7 Dy            3            0.6          4Dy, 3Dk     24/7=3.43      24/35 = 0.686       5Dy, 2Dk(>4Dy,3Dk)   25/7=3.57    0.714
8 Dy            3            0.6          4Dy, 4Dk     28/8=3.5        28/40= 0.7           5Dy, 3Dk(>4Dy,4Dk)   30/8=3.75    0.857

I leave it to each of you to draw your own conclusions. (As Disraeli said, there are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.) As a newer player, I would appreciate some feedback on whether the value for "VP per card" can be used analogously to "average $ per card" to evaluate/describe/compare degrees of deck clogging.

Is there any decision-making use of the value for VP/$ spent?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 12:58:59 pm by SwitchedFromStarcraft »
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dondon151

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Re: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2011, 08:01:48 pm »
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I know from playing 3p games that if I'm the only one gunning for Dukes, the game is likely to end before I can buy many Dukes if I gun for all of the Duchies first. In that case, optimizing the Duke / Duchy numbers is useful.

Almost invariably, at least when I play 3p, there will be 1 player going for Provinces and 2 players going for Duchy / Duke, or vice versa.
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popsofctown

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Re: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2011, 01:32:05 am »
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I don't think I've ever seen someone buy Dukes just to keep their opponent from having them.  It's almost always a superior strategy to keep their Duke total low by purchasing all the Provinces in a curseless game, or emptying a cheaper kingdom stack in a curse game (Duchy+Curse+Oasis's=3 piled).

The logic works, it's just that 3-piling is going to end the game before things actually work that way.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 01:34:25 am by popsofctown »
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AJD

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Re: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2011, 08:56:08 am »
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I don't think I've ever seen someone buy Dukes just to keep their opponent from having them.

Happened to me in <a href="http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111204-203118-0f4560f6.html">this game</a>—in fact, my opponent ended up with more Dukes than me, each of which was worth 2 points in their deck.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2011, 08:58:23 am »
+1

I've had it happen a lot too. I don't think I've ever seen someone win by denying Dukes to an opponent who has more Duchies though.
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DG

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Re: Which First? Duchies or Dukes?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2011, 12:01:25 pm »
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Quote
I don't think I've ever seen someone win by denying Dukes to an opponent who has more Duchies though.
It can work in more complicated kingdoms with smugglers, silk roads, and so on.
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